Shim Mistake - Foil Sports & Windsurfing - Wojtek Brzozowski
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
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I also have a lot of problems with the mast in the box. Wojtek is the best RUclipsr for me and I will listen to his advice. Аbsolutely all of his videos are outstanding and i look forward to the next one.
Best foiling video! Finally someone using common sense....
Nice work😊
Hi, your video actually confused me a lot now... I guess you are referencing to Michele Beckers rake video. So you are claiming almost all PWA riders are using their foils wrong? Your logic makes sense, although I feel that my foil is very stiff in the box, also with shims...
But my main question is, whats your solution? You claim using shims is wrong, but there is also no alternative, aside from changing the production - but this does not help me at all when I go sailing tomorrow...🤣
Also, from what I understood, most Pro´s are changing their rake depending also on conditions. Even with your logic, you would have to use shims. Or is there any other way to change the rake aside from using different kinds of shims? If my AEON foil was now 3 degrees on default, then what if I want 3.8 degrees or I change board for example and need less/more?
Shims on the front and rear will have the mast feeling tight - but there will be stress at single points front and rear.
Shims on the sides aren’t mentioned but they’re okay if they’re even.
He says to adjust the angle at the point the fuselage meets the mast. That will require modification by you or the manufacturer in production.
So your choice is making modifications at the fuselage or shimming the box: if you shim the box, you’re upsetting the geometry of the whole foil system and risking breakage of the box (because of the single points of stress).
He means that you need a board/mast combination with at least 3o standard. So next time before you buy you need to check... Shims are bad for the fin box. Great information for at least our next purchases, easier for you since you have a shop. Ideally the industry in the future will make the adjustment possible on the fuselage to mast connection. The most important part in my opinion is the high wind long fuselage information! I am waiting for a 95 NP SLR2 for high wind 🤔 the info came too late.
he's talking about shimming the mast in the box to adjust the rake which is a bad idea (movement of lift point plus point action on box) - shimming the rear wing causes obviously drag but thats not his point. The idea is to adjust the fuse in the connection to the mast. Pro: adjustment of angle without the bad side effects as above. try trigonometry, influenZA
Excelent explanation!!👌🤙🤙
I have noticed my front bolt coming loose, so I will do as suggested. Thx.
When I first heard about it I thought changing the rake of the foil-mast is nonsense looking at it from the physics side of things. I think, increasing the rake of the foil to the back or lifting the board nose will just make take off harder while doing nothing in terms of hydrodynamics. And the most difficult and exhausting thing for us amateurs is to get going in winds that we can comfortably foil in.... Subscribed!
How about using copperslip on the threads? Normally in other applications it helps a lot.
Sure it helps👍😁
If you change the rake of the mast, yes, it looks like the front foil moves much backward compared to the board (and basically it does), but the resulting lift-force also moves at the same time forwards along the board, so the movement of the resulting force on the board (which decides where you have to place your feet) does move only very little! Much less then what is suggested in the video. It is easier to see this effect when you stand the board straight up on its foil (yes, it is not so practical on land...). If you change the rake, basically all you do is move (mainly the front-) footstrap up or down, and the move of the front-strap fore/aft is ever so slightly, probably a matter of mm.
Above is the situation in foiling mode (which is what is most important for most of us I guess, apart from beginners trying to get on the foil for the first time). In non-foiling mode (just before take-off), yes, the situation is more as described in the video, and some may be tempted to compensate that by angling the back foil more up. It will make it easier to get up on the foil, but you will have way too much power/lift then in foiling mode.
Guys you are both right. It all depends if you are already going or you are about to get planing. Changing the rake by shims upsets geometry and planing ability of the foil a lot. The video is about many factors suggesting that the rake adjustment should be always done at the mast/fuzelage connection. The video is to set the direction of the foil developement with brands that fall behind. In short the shims are destroing your board/fin box.
Dobry przekaz ❤ Ciekawe jak daleko aktualna technologia konstrukcji foila jest od złotego środka i czy w ogóle taki istnieje. Pozdrawiam
Myślę że droga przed nami jeszcze długa. I tak naprawdę należy do tych którzy dużo próbują i dużo testują. I to jest konflikt interesów między zarabianiem kasy a tworzenie nowych prototypów. Prototypy są drogie i nie przynoszą pieniędzy natomiast sprzedawanie cały czas tego samego produktu robi największą kasę ale budzimy się z ręką w nocniku że foil który sprzedajemy został w tyle za konkurencją.
Why don't they rake the box?😅 In stead of we need up to -3 in shims.
I designed my own shims for the Phantom Iris R mast as the top is not flat so with out shims the mast will move the shims are just enough to make the mast sit in the Foilbox without moving and don't need insane torque on the screws to stop the mast from moving. About 1-3 degrees depending on board. However I agree you don't want the mast to move its the same on my 43cm speed board I don't want my fin to move around either should be common sense.
👍
Wojtek, great video with out-of-the-box thinking. I've got a few questions: what's the useable range in this way of rake setting? If your base rake is 3º for example, how much more or less rake can you go with your setup when you're changing the rake at the mast-fuse connection?
What's the method of changing this rake (shims inside the fuse?) and how does this impact the bolts used to secure the fuse to the mast? For any radical changes I expect the lateral holes on the fuse need to be slightly ovalized and the three longer M6 bolts are also affected by the rake setting.
From my experience, most brands and foils get it wrong with the way they implement shimming in the foil box. For starters, the shims need to be full length, triangularly shaped, and rounded (filleted) at the top edges, just like fin Tuttle heads. Instead we often see short, square shims, which create pressure points and make the mast move every so slightly during foiling until it sets in mid-ride.
You are correct😊 You can shim my fuzelage approx 1.5° each way.
But really there is no need. For now 3° is optimal and after last 2 years of testing I find it works best for all conditions☺️
@@wojtekbrzozowski many thanks :) I'd agree that +- 1.5º is plenty.
I often use as little rake as 1.3-1.4º for light wind and flat water (6-9 knots). Compared to 2-2.5º, it's significantly easier to pump and foil, at least for an amateur rider. Therefore with one of your masts, I'd need to be running the bare minimum in terms of rake, or even shim the mast in the foil box slightly on the back bolt :)
What is your top speed with your settings?
I do not know. Probably about 60km/h. But I do not like to foil in more than 18 knots.
Hi Wojtek! Did you try canard setup? I believe there was only one foil on the market with canard - Zeeko Spitfire, and it had strange config with very big stabilizer and main wing weirdly placed behind the mast. Long fuselage with small stab should work better, I'm really curious did someone try that.
Did not try yet😊
Longer fuselage = lower maneuverability. In strong winds, large waves, constant correction of the mast draft is necessary. The rider decides how much stability and how much maneuverability he wants. Longer fuselage makes sense primarily for the use of smaller wings.
Ja opieram się o lata testów które wykonałem na fuzlach różnej długości.
You talk about theory and I base my findings on years of tests made on real fuzelages that I tested in various conditions. Waves, chop, flat, strong, light, salty, sweet, worm, cold, big sails, small sails, big boards, small boards. I do not think that there is to many guys in the world that made so many tests like I did.
What foil is that?
Starboard SLX
@@TurboE30M3No, this is not Starboard SLX. This is my foil that is compatibile with Starboard fittings but the desing is 100% mine. Of course I support Starboard Foils but Starboard is mass production and my foils are custom foils with very small numbers made. You can say that my foils are very high end products for very limited number of customers. Just like my fins. It is called: Wojtek Brzozowski Foils.
Sorry, I thought I recognized the front wing as the MF SLX wing. It’s very distinctive
@@TurboE30M3I know, it is similar, but this is one of my prototypes☺️
I’m very sorry but you are so 2018 ! This has been discussed AD INFINTUM allready years ago. Do you really expect people to believe all PWA racers are wrong, all Olympic competitors are wrong , all amateur windfoilers who have been shimming their box through the years are wrong…. ? I even asked the manufacturer of my board (FMX) if my warranty would suffer if I would use shims and they said NO , just go ahead.
This is your point of view. If you have a foil at the Olimpics that was designed in 2018 than you have little choice but putting shims. I talk about modern foils in this video. Not ancient Olimpic history. You choose if you want to stay on olimpic gear or move forward😁
And I have seen to many broken finboxes due to shim usage. But the cry starts when you actually suffer one.
@@wojtekbrzozowskiBroken finboxes…? Yes pre-2018, when people where using old formula boards with simple tuttle boxes that where never intended for foiling. By 2018 manufacturers reinforced the tuttle box and even developed a (deeper) foil box to withstand the forces of a racing foil. If not so , don’t you think by now the internet would be flooded with complaints from users with a broken finbox ?
I agree with the video - it is a bad idea to add a shim between the board and the Tuttle foil flange. It is absolutely correct the loads are largely on the front and rear of the Tuttle foil. I have for example a mini Tuttle "Sabfoil T03K" that allows me to use Sabfoil on the Slingshot Wizard 125 Chinook Tuttle Box that cannot receive a deep tuttle foil because the box is not deep enough. Stupid design by Chinook and bad that Slingshot uses it - another thing that is wrong by the windsurf foil industry!!!! That said the T03K is more than 1 cm from bottoming out in the box and yet the foil is held in the box well front and rear. I am sure there is more load on the box because it is not a full insertion, but at least not a point load as described in the video.
@@bellerophon9350Thanks a lot, I respect both you opinions☺️