Grubby puts the Stormgate Engine to the test - and finds surprising results!
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- Опубликовано: 9 дек 2023
- Now that we've explored the two only playable factions of Stormgate, let's get to the more technical part! Movements, AI pathing, UI functionalities, Resource management, let's see what's under the hood!
Grubby puts the Stormgate Engine to the test - and finds surprising results! (Game played on 5-December-2022)
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Thank you for sharing this insightful analysis!
I see you guys everywhere lately, and I like it!
Harstem and grubby 2v2 winter and lowko when!?
That's gonna be hard in a game with two competitive modes: 1v1 and 3v3.
good job ! keep it up!
For those, interested in numbers on 46:40
820 -> 900 (+80) The guy made the kill shot and also was the nearest to the target at the kill moment
1303 -> 1313 (+10)
902 -> 912 (+10) They both made shots and were the second and third nearest to the target. Looks like the 20 was divided
1040 -> 1040 (0) The last guy didn't get any exp although we can see that he made one hit at the beginning, but he was the furthest away at the end.
10:04 For walling like this, I'd really like for them to put a cosmetic wall connecting two buildings that are placed in such a way that units cannot move between them, even if the building models don't show a wall.
Fighting against another Infernal feels kind of awful especially on Shroud. It's pretty difficult to determine your units from your enemy. They need to make team color more distinct for allied units and units that you control versus the enemies.
the entire sense of scale in the game feels off.
@@Spartanoffaith I think it's just a matter of getting used to, I remember getting really annoyed at Warcraft 3 scale where most units are the size of a fully grown tree
@@Spartanoffaith Probably because you are used to a certain game scale and now playing another looks entirely different thus not coping with your minds used to see scale.
sc2 >>>> sg, everyone will forget sg fast. sc2 lasts forever.
@@treasuryy why would they forget SG exactly?
I really like that there's gas only bases and minerals only bases - sorry, therium and luminite. It'll hopefully promote more creativity in expansion patterns depending on build.
17:08 workers indeed return to their previous job. Check 1:32, you ordered to build via Q and then selected a worker, it has order queue to build and then return to mining. At 17:45 one of three builders goes back to mining while the remaining two become idle as they were before building order (16:58).
THANK YOU so much for this video!! This is exactly the sort of stuff I want to see and am curious about, but you're the only content creator who had permission to stream the beta who wanted to test all this for your audience and those of us without the ability to play ourselves.
I absolutely love the in-depth analysis, Grubby! Thanks.
That's cool! Finally some good and interesting news about Stormgate :) Thanks for making that video
Damn that micro showcase was amazing. Considering how far the skill level of Starcraft 2 players increased over the years, I can't even imagine what will pro-level Stormgate fights look like in 10 years from now. Awesome stuff. Also thanks for testing and showcasing the engine of the game, since to be honest - this is the most important part of the game
5:50 it doesn't remove the performance or expertise in micro managing from the player, it gives them more potential for strategy and micro management on the war side, so instead of players focusing economy as intently they will have more capacity to engage in different strategies. I think on a competitive level this game will have a higher skill cap than other current RTS games.
And there’s more stuff on the map to fight for too right with the camps? So less maybe on the micro in base and more on the battles at least at a low level? I haven’t played much RTS, but watch high level and read forums and stuff and it sounds like at low level its just turtle big army then all in
@@feverennui That's basically sc2 for all lower leagues
lol Like in SC2, right? This one doesn't even mater.
Thanks Grubby fot that testing. I do love to see what's under the hood.
Most important storm gate video made so far. Great work and thanks for Sharing!
sounds exactly like the Sgt. Hammer voice actor on those cars
Excellent in depth video !
Very interesting views and analysis ! Thx
No Heroes, Starcrafty World, Starcrafty Unit Movement, Starcrafty Buildings and Concept, sadly, Stormgate won't ever be "my game". I miss the glorious times of Blizzard even more now. Why won't a company just make a (heartfelt) successor to Warcraft 3, in a different but similar type of fantasy world? Such a shame. So sad.
There are valid concerns that a too strong hero makes most of the army somewhat cannon fodder, when they'd rather encourage multiple points of interest happening at the same time. This is why heroes are more likely to appear in 3v3, because there's enough units on the field that the fields of interest inevitably spreads out.
On that note, Zerospace are going forward with the hero route, though designed to fall off in power by the mid game to prevent the over-centralization.
Immortals Gates of Pyre is another RTS in development that is slightly more fantasy flavored in a similar vibe to League. Angels, Blood-Tree-worshipers, rune tech, etc.
Heroes don't belong in 1vs1
I'm so darn excited for this game man.
Frost Giant should just hire grubby to test their engine lol
Why would they? The man's doing it for free
great analysis man
Nice in depth look!
Very nice info here, thank you. Will revisit.
This was amazing, thank you Grubby you're a legend!
He's not just a legend, he's a legend in a league of his own!
Can't wait for this game to be fully released
I'm very glad that this game is being developed, i'm just concerned by the clarity of the units, i wish it was more in the wc3 direction than sc2
Ya the most common feedback for the game is around visual clarity and overall visual appeal so I'm sure they are paying attention to it
For what it's worth if you check uhm any alpha videos, the clarity is starting to become better, but I agree they still have to work on it.
@@Cool_Goosesc2 alpha didn't have good clarity either, but it turned out well at the end
Amen
yeah I just see a bunch of blobs with healthbars on a dota2 map atm.
Other than that, the game is great.
Really nice deep dive Grubby
Good analysis, and I agree about quality of life improvements in particular.
This kind of quality of life reminds me of supreme commander when you could select your army without selecting your workers. It allowed more micro on other tasks which was cool
Cant wait to watch grubby go hard in this
Will be so much fun
good science.
subbed
This just might revitalize the RTS genre
i havent really followed the grubby dota 2 arc, i was so confused when i heard that shaman shackle in the beginning :D
Good work.
6:15 I agree that players’ skill can be elsewhere in the game. But, another issue with quality of life features is the rare unintended/unintuitive behavior. In the example of returning resources after being told to mine, there are situations where the best behavior isn’t clear. Particularly if the player is transferring workers from one base to another.
Wow this young man is extremely well spoken
DONT! You'll swell his noggin...
@@TheVanillatech lol
" this spider has a gun " u dont hear that everyday
it feels like the therium is the minerals while the luminite is your gas
The scout being a dog, I’m ready sold.
game looks good on a technical level, now it just needs a graphical overhaul
One unit for sounds too, wouldn't hurt.
Overhaul makes it sound like they are remaking something, so it would have to be done. which the flying dog shows is not the case. This is a work in progress
They just need to finish the graphics
It's actually very good that the technical level is in a good state now. I prefer this over good looks + bad technical level under the hood in the early phase
@@cros-z4597 even the more finished stuff looks so much worse than starcraft
@@jakewu8298 nothing of this is finished though, they're still making a lighting system for the finally game. they may not even use any of the current models in the base game.
unless your saying that the act style is bad (I've heard cartoony used) which is valid and if enough people say that they may change it, but I'll save judgement for the final product.
now grubby can hang out with the other dutch casters
the thing were a peon goes to command post is very useful when you select a lot of peons and some of them have "gold" and some don't and you click "gold mine" the peons go depending of what they have directly where they should go interesting when you are migrating peons form a destroyed base
But if you have a bob that has luminite in its hands/on its back/whatever and tell it to mine therium, will it return the luminite?
Grubby got a little mixed up in the end with the veterancy mechanic, haha.
Need to take a bunch of newly created soldiers so they all have 0 XP, then go and kill a single Lancer. Then check their veterancy again.
It's interesting that assists also gain some of the XP while the killing blow gets the most.
It also seems that creeps give XP as well.
Do you know if there is an option to display less blood, in the options? Love RTS but not fond of hemoglobin...
42:15 there should also be variations in unit wind up. It’s small but even in SC2 not all units will end up attacking immediately and this is to give the other player additional flexibility to respond.
Unless I’m way off base here lol
It could be something they are planning on doing later, though it is important to note that - while the variation in windup is meant to be a visual change, it does actually affect the balance of the game. Starcraft 2 specifically has in the "recent" patches removed wind-up variation for a couple units to significantly buff them, so it's a pretty subtle balance to find where it feels good, but doesn't make the unit too weak
@@RancorSnp It's not quite as simple. The _average_ wind-up duration is most relevant for balance, especially if different unit types have different values. RNG is generally bad as it deprives players of agency, same for WC3's damage variability theoretically being able to decide whether a unit lives or dies on a dice roll rather than skilled play. SC2's engine does have a quirk though where hitscan attacks with _any_ non-zero variability distribute to avoid overkill while eliminating that variability makes them overkill like they do in BW to my knowledge (e.g. a dozen siege tanks all shooting a single zergling dropped between them and killing 3 tanks with the splash - in SC2 only a single tank will shoot before the ling is declared dead). Projectiles and other delayed attacks still overkill regardless in SC2.
12:39 maybe he ran away and then came back before creep could even make another attack (or it also had a gun)
Small things that I really appreciate. AoE4 (for me the current best RTS regarding having fun) doesn't really have that love to detail mechanics. I hope Stormgate will succeed.
I just wish you could like alt que a unit and it toggles auto build for a building to just keep producing, that’s more strategy that allows for the real time to be based on army fighting instead of button mashing production
The units look a bit small, are they bigger on-screen in play?
As on the topic of targeting, I really enjoy and absolutely prefer StarCraft 2's implementation, where in the literal 3D model is the basis of selection. I commit a LOT of misclicks and issues of the like in DotA because the selection hitbox isn't apparently obvious.
The Command Post looks like a Roomba.
What happens if you have "gold" on your workers back and you click on another resource?
It looks really good. Could never get into aoe4 because of this kindof stuff even though I wanted to.
Great analysis, very interesting to listen to, although reading the chat gave me a headache
I hope they keep the dog
yo Frank is the music guy of SGate
So what happens when a BOB with a mineral bag is directed to collect gas
Description says game is played 5th of December in 2022. Maybe its typo and was meant to say 2023 and not 2022?
there is some red alert 3 in it
As far as the comment about "making things being dumber so pros can show off their skills", pros aren't the only ones who play these games. Starcraft had a great campaign and Co-Op which is where most people played the game. Competitive play gets a lot of the attention but most people don't like it.
Yeah. I watched a video which talks about death of RTS genre and the author explains that one of the most interesting part of RTS genre is in the lore which is found in campaign and co-op mode.
@@user-od4kr2tt4j there's been a few videos about it now and people have noticed a trend where these RTS companies are focusing on the competitive elements of RTS (probably due to things like the Starcraft competitions) and they tend to forget that most of their customers aren't into it. Casuals don't want to have to do constant micro management just to better differentiate elite players. Casuals want to relax, build their armies up, work the story, have a bit of a challenge working through missions. If they want it tougher they'll beef up the difficulty.
@@geneanthony3421 yeah. I'm sure that a good game is friendly to players in every skill level. The ceiling is kept as high as possible, but in the other side, the floor is also being lowered as low as possible. In short, wider player skill level.
27:08 You tell a building to be built in your main, which is mined out of gold and oversaturated on gas and yet instead of pulling a worker from the oversaturated gas it takes a worker from the natural gold. Thoughts? I feel if the gas is oversaturated it should pull from it especially when there is a large difference in distance between the oversaturated gas and the natural gold.
An interesting catch.
It does look like that the game will always prioritize gathering therium over luminite and therefore always pick a luminite worker over therium regardless of distance. I actually don't mind this as the auto build function is built for the less experienced who probably won't even notice the inefficiency.
A more experienced player will just manually select the closest worker and be more efficient, in a sense being rewarded for good macro. I think the game is striking a really nice balance in this regard so far.
It would be really cool if they allowed unit formations like in age of empires. Have a whole menu tab for formations. Then you could easily make a wall of units and do all sorts of cool stuff.
gg
This could have one advantage over sc2, that is if its more fun to play than to watch. Like if its not as demanding as SC2. Theres two sides of that of course but we already have SC2.
Just to let you know this isn’t testing the games engine, this is testing the game. You’re going over the quality of the work not the engine itself.
😍
6:43 i think ive seen in sc2 ppl click workers carrying resources on minerals
The difference is in SC2 the worker will carry the minerals to the patch, realize they already have minerals, then path to the base. It's a small change but it's an improvement to me.
I really like many features the devs introduce here and the game seems to play well and very fluent. My only criticism of what i have seen so far are the graphics: Compare it to Wc3. Wc3s style is so much more artistic, playful and funny. Units are completely distinct to each other, you wont confuse them. The terrain is so far more detailed and has more verticality, WITHOUT confusing the player . Here it seems very generic, plain and boring. Also the sounds lack something. It doesn't feel impactful when a unit attacks. The sound doesnt fit to the weapon. I know this is an early version and I hope they will do a lot to the art style and sound. I will definitely try this game though!
5:32 I always believe your decision goes over mechanical complexity. You want the worker to work on gold, and the worker will do that to its fullest extend. I also want units that exit production to rally with a combat move and I also want the option to turn that off as an in-game toggle. I want the option to automatically assign produced units to a specific hotkey, if I make that decision for that specific building. Some people believe that shouldn't be a thing, because small things like that make the game auto play for you. But in the very end, it is my decision and not my mechanical skill that allows my units to behave the way they do when I order them around. And I believe that is what RTS games should strive for. That will also open it up to a larger community, as these types of games are demanding to play due to there being so many things you need to oversee all the time.
It's a bit of a tradeoff, since when those more rote things are handled for you other tasks open up, often in ways that require more active decision making in multiple places, rather than active decision-making in one place and rote decision-making in others. It does make the game friendlier to casual players, but makes getting into the competitive side even more demanding since you have to make more context-sensitive decisions in more places, since your opponent can do so as well.
How easy a game is to get into depends a lot on what the game prompts you to see as "the game". If the game makes competitive 1v1 laddering the primary mode with everything else in the background, then it is only as approachable as the opponents you face, whereas if campaign or custom games are foregrounded then now it's as approachable as the campaign designers or mapmakers make it. I think that if you want a game with a foregrounded multiplayer component to be approachable it works well to have it contextualized in something a bit more engaging than menus (I particularly like how Arc System Works' fighting games have virtual arcade spaces that create a more social environment around the main 1v1 competitive game), but that's mainly because it foregrounds "having fun with friends" and not "becoming a professional video game player" as the goal of the game.
The unit veterancy looks a lot like SC2 CO-OP Commander Mengsk units. Mengsk was one of my favorite Commmanders so I'm down with this.
Something that looks weird to me are the units running on the ground. Graphically, it looks like they are skating or gliding on the ground. I'm guessing this is just an animation thing. The units feel weightless. Just a personally opinion. Maybe I'm being too picky.
3. U should try hecarim in league
who will win Zero space Storngate or INmortal?
Dont mind having a new RTS game, but its a SC2 copy. The units, the buildings are already exist. Whats new in it? The graphic looks like WC3 reforged which commonly despised a lot.
I hope it shows some now things or be a fail.
I know everyone says it looks like sc2. Having been raised on wc3 will sc2 was free, It's legit Warcraft 4, it's closer to warcraft just with out the heros. Sc2 demands a lot of micro and from what I've seen this game is less mirco like wc3 was. How ever the units don't feel sc2 so much as wc3 with like siege tanks
As a person who plays a lot of mobile games, I hate seeing people in chat, that have literally no clue what mobile games actually look like, say games look like a mobile game.
It's really cringe, annoying and stupid that they ascribe "cartoony" to "Mobile game".
This Stormgate game looks great, the more I see of it and hear of it the more promising it seems.
"It's too cartoony" is something people complain about every Blizzard RTS, maybe barring Starcraft 1. The best part is, when I asked one of them to name an RTS game that got popular and has good visual clarity without being cartoony - they replied "starcraft 2" - which was getting just as much hate as Stormgate is over how "cartoony" the graphics are. Just ignore them
@@RancorSnp "Cartoony" is just the wrong word for it. Warcraft 3 is cartoony. Exaggerated proportions, impossible movements including stretchy limbs, overly dramatic and highly stylised spell animations etc. - Stormgate and Starcraft 2 have much less of that. But SC2 looks "toy-like" compared to the original, especially in the proportions of buildings it looks more like the plastic action figure version while SC1 looks like a grainy low-res photo of the thing itself. Stormgate sits in this unfortunate middle ground where the designs have a toy-like whimsy to them (tell me the Hedgehog does *NOT* look like a LEGO car designed for you to flick those 4 missile forwards with your fingers, I dare you!) yet having a fairly high resolution which makes it feel like there _should_ be "something more" to the models. Doesn't help that the style has come to be associated with cashgrab mobile games and early access indie demos as well as the clarity nightmare that is League of Legends skins.
@@Photoloss Warcraft 3's cartoony part is partly due to limitations in technology back then, each unit have a limited amount of "skeletons" which limit the details in body structure.
The artstyle itself is not cartoony. There are many non-cartoony details like face wrinkles, skin textures, hair lines, building's wall textures, etc
Many of the exaggerated proportions are also mostly only found in units like dwarfs, undeads, and creeps, in which they are not meant to have normal body proportions to start with.
The "fancy" spell animations have two purposes: to make them feels powerful (which they are), and for visual clarity.
Stormgate on the other hand, is intentionally going for a more "plastic" cartoony artstyle. The hairs are smooth, the face and skins are smooth, the buildings have smooth surfaces. They could've tried for a more realistic approach like Starcraft, but decided to adopt Fortnite's artstyle instead
@@winterfall_0 Warcraft 3 has both: with flat faces and triangular boobs you can clearly tell they just kept the model resolution low for technical reasons. Blades clipping through the body and weapons magically reappearing in hand after being thrown too. With stretching it's a little more difficult, something like a Lava Spawn sure could deform like that because it's a magical blob monster, but there's a clear stylistic choice in having their mouths bulge out instead of a throwing animation like their Firelord master uses to attack. But you can't tell me that Medivh and Grunts chewing the scenery is because of technical issues, just put them next to a Priest or something and see what they clearly were capable of.
Hey guys,
What do you think if we had this camp respawn logic in warcraft 3 ? Would it be a good or a bad thing ?
My only rts addiction is clash royale cant wait for this game to drop on ps5 even though i can play it on my shitty school pc💀 love your content grubb keep up the grind i enjoy all your content if i can sit there and listen to you make sense in a relatable and entertaining way u have a gift
shoulda tested max units. i heard it can manage thousands without lag
It's currently lagging with 10 units, so probably not the best test. I imagine they don't have their local prediction + rollback enabled in the build Grubby has.
the warping and lagging is clearly visible on youtube video
Finally someone exploring the game step by step and clearly and not just randomly talking stuff.
Hi ! i can create comment on you tube but cannot reply to any comment any grubbster here know a solution ( i wont be able to reply past this comment but i ll read ur asnwers ! )
Looks great. A bit to cartoon-y imo. 😅
Gotta appeal to casuals😂 since veterans or fans won't save a long time rts game to glory
Why would I play Stormgate over another RTS like Starcraft or Age, Age of Empires or Dune: Spice Wars?
im so affraid this will fail.
But tying to mix 3 of the 4 biggest strategy games into one might be to big of a challange.
Im realy excited about this game, the potential IF/When they get it right.
You need the basic resources to be one with diminishing returns. That is why a gold mine in WC2 didn't work. But minerals in SC did. For SC they just switched around wood and gold from WC2, and that by accident hit the right gameplay mechanic. Even worse was C&C, which had a harvester getting tiberian ore. This was all 100% lore-based. Because the Dune novel had deserts with spice, all C&C games had a nonsensical resource system. There was like zero gameplay thought into any of this. SC just lucked out. And now it is 2024 and devs still put ZERO THOUGHT into the gameplay of their game. It is insane. Resource is the core of your game. Your design a resource system is the first and most fundamental decision you make when you create an RTS game. Doing what Stormgate did is literally a 1996 decision. Like having learned nothing since Dune 2. And people wonder why new gamers don't want to play RTS. It's because you put ZERO THOUGHT in coming up with fun gameplay.
creep camps? CC or Quake? Warcraft 3 bro
yg
What if the flying scout dog is actually named F.I.D.O - Flying International Dog Overseer
The Red Alert dogs look so trash in this game.
I honestly don't like the mobile game graphics look, they could have put so much more work into the environment or even make the buildings more visually complex. Just doesn't scream cutting edge sci fi high end to me like StarCraft did. It simply screams 'how many machines can I play this on so I can sell this ftp game to the masses'...
Imagine talking about input lag when you mained hots for years LMAO
I wish this game looked better :/.
all of these new RTS games do not seem to be doing anything to evolve the genre in any way, they all seem like clones of games from 20 years ago. i have thought for long time that RTS genre has plenty of room to grow.
this need heroes, if i want play only with units i will play BAR
For me - too much of a reskin of SC2. And SC2 is what it is - does what it does perfectly. We don't need a reskin of SC2.
I'd much have preferrred as others already commented, for them to go down the Warcraft style. A hero based system, even with stylish retro-style visuals but with all the bells and whistles provided by modern hardware. As long as the CORE is sound, it doesn't really matter. Clarity and style are more appealing than some hyper-realistic nonsense anyways. Even if they'd had gone totally mental and brought us something entirely new and pushed boundaries! I'm sure with their pedigree they could pull something like that off.
I've been playing Songs Of Conquest again, and the artstyle is incredible.
I dunno - I want to believe Stormgate will be good but there seems to be a lot of work left and it needs a soul. It needs to be .... AN INDIVIDUAL!
The code checking if the worker has resources already and returning to the town hall first is nice fancy programming, sure. But that is exactly the same type of programming that made SC2 a bad game. What you need is an engine that allows you to have good unit fights. SC2 failed hard at this. Why? Because the engine was too good. Good engines are bad for RTS. You need one that is simplistic and players crisp. First priority is the latency of the units. SC2 had WC3 latency. It never had SC BW lan latency. Second is if they clump or not. The base AI that controls the units should be highly simplistic and predictable. That way, even beginner players can micro their units and get them to perform better. SC BW wasn't perfect here, but SC2 actually went in the wrong direction. Why? Because the devs didn't understand RTS and thought all they had to do is make a smart modern fancy engine. As a result, we got blobs of units with perfect pathfinding where you were better off not even trying to micro.
Thanks for this video. Veterancy on units seems like a bad idea and hard to manage.
I'm not big on the mobile game style graphics sadly, looking forward to Tempest Rising.
This looks kinda crappy right now, but I believe this game will improve a lot through the years.
Im just not very impressed. I dont think this game will do as good as the devs expect. Its looks like a decent rts. But rts is already a dying genre it needs to be an EXCELLENT rts not just decent
The gameplay is too similar to starcraft I think.
lol Grubby trying to attack SC BW for having bad game design that wouldn't make popular when he was WC3 player, which was a highly unpopular game except for China. WTF man! I talked to you in person about SC BW vs WC3 and you still don't understand that WC3 is the inferior game? You are really stubborn, aren't you? It is 2024 and SC BW players can just play SC BW while WC3 and SC2 players are looking for the next RTS because their own game is dead because it had inferior gameplay design decisions despite having the advantage of being more modern and the devs having the opportunity to learn from SC BW.