The best addition to this plotline is the Toymaker hinting that he "played jigsaw" with the Doctor's past. It gives this sense of ambiguity over the mystery of their existence without denying the possibility of it being true outright. It's his way of saying "It can be canon or non-canon, maybe both, you get to decide what fits best".
16:20 The thing is, we aready had some deep, obscure lore as to the origins of regeneration. Legend had it, Rassilon devised it and being Rassilon, capped it at 12 regenerations and gave himself an endless amount. On top of that, regeneration energy was thought of as being partly linked to time travel itself, as Artron energy seemed to play a role. Of all people, Steven Moffat even made a compatible addition to that stipulation, in the form of River Song being able to regenerate due to having being conceived mid flight (but I dread to think he actually imagined Amy and Rory getting busy, because it's him we're talking about).
The idea that the Time Lords "stole" regeneration from a "Timeless Child" is actually excellent because it creates a level of original sin in the entire race that really fits with the line from the Fisher King - "cowardly, vain, curators who woke up one day and remembered they had teeth, then became the most warlike race in the galaxy!" This idea that they have this history of evil that "predates" the time war, and is only re-awakened. It shouldn't have been the doctor.
Haunting of Villa Diojati is one of, if not the best episode of the 13th Doctor’s era. While Ascension of the Cybermen & the Timeless Children are two of the worst episodes, and the fact they’re important, pivotal episodes story wise in the franchise because of the timeless child reveal only makes it worse. It doesn’t tell its own story well so despite how things have & will develop, the foundations are always going to be shaky.
I theorize that the Timeless Child is the Jigsaw that the Toymaker said. He played a game with master and the Master won a game, making it a tie with the Toymaker, where he got the chance to play with the Doctor's timeline and history, that's why we see Shalka Doctor and a complete misordering of the Doctors faces in Rogue. The timeless child is part of what the Toymaker, through Master's order, did to the Doctor. But after that, the Master lost again, being locked up for eternity in the Toymaker golden tooth. The fact is, the Master made not only the Toymaker escape, but Maestro and The One Who Waits too. The TARDIS being broken, and doing some random sounds proves that by showing that she is trying to put time in order, but she has no control when the 'gods' are moving the strings, so she is just holding on the memory of something that was, and won't be if those powers aren't defeated sooner enough.
My thought is that David Tennant biregen lives out his life with Donna and some of her family, grows tired eventually, and soi regenerates into a little girl and visits Tecteun.
The chibnall era deserves its flowers and one day itll get recognition ...seriously love so much about this era and love how over 4 years later the impact influences this era just brilliant RTD wanted gallifrey gone in his first era snd ....its s clean slate to work with
Despite not being a fan of the era on the whole, I think something quite special about it is how much of a pallet cleanser it can be from the rest of the show, it feels so tonally different in execution from the rest of the show, from visuals to music.
@@jackantrobusofficial I feel Chibnall really made his own pocket universe of the show with series 11-FLUX in that yes everything felt very much away from ehat we hsd beforr likr i can binge TWWFTE to TPOTD and really feel theres a beginning middle and end Fugitive is literally center of tge era event episode! Everything with COVID swayed things a bit and his idea for spin off didn't come to be but I feel real diverse scale and ambition this era that the show wouldn't have been able to to years earlier and I'm thankful of it RTD2 hasn't fully clicked with me yet but loved 73 Yards and what he's doing with the timeless arc going forward ....I'm intrigued
I never really got why Timeless Children upset some people as much as it did, and I'm glad that RTD isn't doing what I think a lot of fans were calling for and just pretending it didn't happen. Bringing it up so quickly was a bold move but it did thoroughly dismiss the possibility of retconning it. Dr Who isn't the kind of show that demands rigid air-tight continuity, and it never has been - it's always been much more of a "we make it up as we go along" approach to canon, and I think it's good to honour that tradition. I'm not the biggest fan of retcons generally, and if there was every anything truly awfwul, I'd rather that they just never bring it up again (or bring it up and make a joke out of it). But in the canon of truly awful things that have happened in the New Who era, I don't think Timeless Children even comes close to being a problem.
totally agree, similar to how the movie claimed The Doctor was half human on his mothers side but that felt like it was retconned just quietly as we still had Paul McGann appear through the revival and i think this approach will always cause disruption as different fans enjoy different stories but I think it’s a great way to respect each creative and is part of the many reasons of what allows the show to have the longevity it’s had
The hate might have gone overboard but it's still a stupid, pointless twist that was just there for shock factor and took away what made the Doctor so intriguing as a character. They're already a Time Lord which is essentially alien nobility, but they were still one of many people living on Gallifrey, with the only difference being that they are the last ones to ever exist. They are a part of a now extinct race and try to cope with this loneliness in different ways, but at their core, they were still the only representatives of their home planet and its people. By taking that away just to make them a Chosen One type of character who wasn't even a Gallifreyan, the whole "last of the time lords" shtick is seemed useless since they never even belonged there.
For me, it's because it take the Doctor, an embarrassment to Time Lord society who barely graduated the Academy with a little over 50% on his _second_ try, and turns them into an interdimensional Chosen One who became the foundation for the most advanced, intelligent, and miraculous civilisation to ever exist. The Doctor was a demonstration of how, despite being _well_ below average for his species, his ingenuity and willingness to help is what made him so universally renowned. He only became important because he was willing to do what no one else was and stand up for those weaker or inferior to him; that is the _only_ thing the Doctor should be known for, so giving them some inherent importance beyond their control (such as being the Time Lords' progenitor) _completely_ defeats the entire point of the character. Retconning the Doctor into having always had infinite regenerations completely invalidates The Time of the Doctor; it was made clear that the reason the Doctor was able to stay on Trenzalore for so long without regenerating was because he'd _run out._ We know that the First Doctor lived for about 500 years before regenerating from old age, so we can assume that _that's_ how long an incarnation of a Time Lord can naturally last; the Eleventh Doctor was on Trenzalore for about _900_ years. In Heaven Sent, the Doctor states that the cells in a Time Lord's body will keep trying to regenerate even when they're too damaged to do so, and The Angels Take Manhattan also shows us that the Eleventh Doctor still had enough residual regeneration energy to heal River's hand; adding this all together tells us that the Eleventh Doctor, who'd spent roughly 1,200 years in the same body, managed to live so long because he had enough regeneration energy to keep himself alive, but not enough to give him a new body. The fact that the Doctor has supposedly always had infinite regenerations means that, not only was the Doctor _not_ in danger of dying on Trenzalore, but he would've regenerated about 300 years into his stay on the planet. The entirety of The Name of the Doctor wouldn't have happened, nor would the "fall of the Eleventh" been anywhere _near_ as big of a deal, as there wouldn't have been any timeline where he ended up dying. Usually, Doctor Who's retcons are minor enough and well-reasoned enough to be acceptable, but the "Timeless Child being the Doctor" thing was an idea that, even as just a concept, flies _right_ in the face of _everything_ the Doctor has ever been as a character; that's not even _mentioning_ how poorly thought-out and executed it was. The Doctor has _always_ been a disappointment to the Time Lords who only became important due to his _actions._ Making him the origin of the Time Lords goes against that very clear, simple, and wholesome message, and instead gives off the implication that someone can only be important if they're born lucky.
I'm one of those who really liked the Timeless Child concept back in the day, and still does, because it tackles almost every single lore hole and inconsistency in the entire series, especially of the Classic one. Ignoring lore drops was something you could do before the Internet and the streaming services; nowdays, having the possibility to rewatch, stop and replay the episodes as much as you want, you can't have anymore the luxury to ignore these things without deluding yourself of the contrary. If you decide to watch the Classic Series and come across aspects that were never mentioned again or that totally contradict what would later be shown in the New Series, you can try as hard as you want to pretend those things were not actually there on screen. But they are indeed there. You can't deny their presence, not without the necessity of sufficient mental gymnastics to fool yourself. And just as those aspects didn't ruin the character of the Doctor then, they haven't ruined him now either; everyone seems to think so. But, on investigating further, it turns out that this is an utterly superficial conception of the character. The Timeless Child is what you obtain when someone finally decide to stop ignoring the show's past just for the sake of not disturbing the fans' wishful thinking.
@@MichaelM28 Thank you, sir, for offering me further proof about how ruinous is fan entitlement, even going so far as to reserve the right to assign the licence of "true fan" to others who enjoy the franchise, whatever that means. Your last comment can be summarized as such: _tell me you never watched the Classic Series properly without telling me you never watched the Classic Series properly_ .
While I can appreciate Davies trying to make the most out of a bad apple, I wish to god he just ignored it because it’s such a dumb plot point that made no sense didn’t need to happen.
I kind of dont mind the idea of the doctor being the timeless child, i think it has a lot of room to explore and is a good excuse for the doctor (and the show) to never die. I just personally find these episodes, along with most in this era, to be unmemorable. Like, i watched your videi about children of earth and i havent watched that in probably over 15 years, yet i remembered more about that story than any of this other than the timeless child reveal itself. I just found most of these episodes to be boring tbh. Ive really been enjoying the new series so far though, it has reminded me of why i fell in love with doctor who
absolutely, what i mean when i say missed potential like there is interesting concepts but the fact not much really happens like i struggle to explain to people where the ideas lead to. they’re all just said to us and that’s as far as it goes most the time
Personally I would have loved an elaborate retcon alá "and then it was all just a trick by the Master and nothing is true, lol. Remember how he likes to mess with the Matrix?" Although I haven't got a clue how to get Gallifrey back again, again. That was just pissing huge potential for intrigue into the wind. The Time Lords are probably more interesting alive than dead, with modern takes on Gallifrey's politics and hubris (Big Finish, cough) being a massive opportunity.
Here's the big dumb thing about Ascent of the Cybermen - Cybermen don't kill humans, they convert them. that's their jam. They are acting a lot like the Daleks in this arc. The Timeless Child concept and execution are both trash. RTD will have to produce a miracle to get me on board. I just pretend it hasn't happened. The Chibnall era was just cr@p.
They do majority convert yes but they have been known to in cases where they can't convert for whatever reason behave that way. Especially corrupted ones. I don't think it makes little sense.
The best addition to this plotline is the Toymaker hinting that he "played jigsaw" with the Doctor's past. It gives this sense of ambiguity over the mystery of their existence without denying the possibility of it being true outright. It's his way of saying "It can be canon or non-canon, maybe both, you get to decide what fits best".
16:20 The thing is, we aready had some deep, obscure lore as to the origins of regeneration. Legend had it, Rassilon devised it and being Rassilon, capped it at 12 regenerations and gave himself an endless amount. On top of that, regeneration energy was thought of as being partly linked to time travel itself, as Artron energy seemed to play a role. Of all people, Steven Moffat even made a compatible addition to that stipulation, in the form of River Song being able to regenerate due to having being conceived mid flight (but I dread to think he actually imagined Amy and Rory getting busy, because it's him we're talking about).
mary shelly wrote frankenstein
The idea that the Time Lords "stole" regeneration from a "Timeless Child" is actually excellent because it creates a level of original sin in the entire race that really fits with the line from the Fisher King - "cowardly, vain, curators who woke up one day and remembered they had teeth, then became the most warlike race in the galaxy!" This idea that they have this history of evil that "predates" the time war, and is only re-awakened.
It shouldn't have been the doctor.
Haunting of Villa Diojati is one of, if not the best episode of the 13th Doctor’s era.
While Ascension of the Cybermen & the Timeless Children are two of the worst episodes, and the fact they’re important, pivotal episodes story wise in the franchise because of the timeless child reveal only makes it worse. It doesn’t tell its own story well so despite how things have & will develop, the foundations are always going to be shaky.
I theorize that the Timeless Child is the Jigsaw that the Toymaker said. He played a game with master and the Master won a game, making it a tie with the Toymaker, where he got the chance to play with the Doctor's timeline and history, that's why we see Shalka Doctor and a complete misordering of the Doctors faces in Rogue. The timeless child is part of what the Toymaker, through Master's order, did to the Doctor.
But after that, the Master lost again, being locked up for eternity in the Toymaker golden tooth.
The fact is, the Master made not only the Toymaker escape, but Maestro and The One Who Waits too. The TARDIS being broken, and doing some random sounds proves that by showing that she is trying to put time in order, but she has no control when the 'gods' are moving the strings, so she is just holding on the memory of something that was, and won't be if those powers aren't defeated sooner enough.
My thought is that David Tennant biregen lives out his life with Donna and some of her family, grows tired eventually, and soi regenerates into a little girl and visits Tecteun.
Wouldn't that mean putting the Doctor in an endless loop?
Sorry to be pedantic, but MARY Shelley wrote Frankenstein. Knowing this slants the episode slightly.
Not pedantic. Not getting this right from the start of the video hurts the video's credibility.
if I had a Nickle for every time a cyberman inspired Mary Shelly to wright Frankenstein, I would have two nickels
The chibnall era deserves its flowers and one day itll get recognition ...seriously love so much about this era and love how over 4 years later the impact influences this era just brilliant RTD wanted gallifrey gone in his first era snd ....its s clean slate to work with
Despite not being a fan of the era on the whole, I think something quite special about it is how much of a pallet cleanser it can be from the rest of the show, it feels so tonally different in execution from the rest of the show, from visuals to music.
@@jackantrobusofficial I feel Chibnall really made his own pocket universe of the show with series 11-FLUX in that yes everything felt very much away from ehat we hsd beforr likr i can binge TWWFTE to TPOTD and really feel theres a beginning middle and end Fugitive is literally center of tge era event episode! Everything with COVID swayed things a bit and his idea for spin off didn't come to be but I feel real diverse scale and ambition this era that the show wouldn't have been able to to years earlier and I'm thankful of it RTD2 hasn't fully clicked with me yet but loved 73 Yards and what he's doing with the timeless arc going forward ....I'm intrigued
I never really got why Timeless Children upset some people as much as it did, and I'm glad that RTD isn't doing what I think a lot of fans were calling for and just pretending it didn't happen. Bringing it up so quickly was a bold move but it did thoroughly dismiss the possibility of retconning it. Dr Who isn't the kind of show that demands rigid air-tight continuity, and it never has been - it's always been much more of a "we make it up as we go along" approach to canon, and I think it's good to honour that tradition. I'm not the biggest fan of retcons generally, and if there was every anything truly awfwul, I'd rather that they just never bring it up again (or bring it up and make a joke out of it). But in the canon of truly awful things that have happened in the New Who era, I don't think Timeless Children even comes close to being a problem.
totally agree, similar to how the movie claimed The Doctor was half human on his mothers side but that felt like it was retconned just quietly as we still had Paul McGann appear through the revival and i think this approach will always cause disruption as different fans enjoy different stories but I think it’s a great way to respect each creative and is part of the many reasons of what allows the show to have the longevity it’s had
People hate it cause it throws the themes of doctor who out the window
The hate might have gone overboard but it's still a stupid, pointless twist that was just there for shock factor and took away what made the Doctor so intriguing as a character.
They're already a Time Lord which is essentially alien nobility, but they were still one of many people living on Gallifrey, with the only difference being that they are the last ones to ever exist. They are a part of a now extinct race and try to cope with this loneliness in different ways, but at their core, they were still the only representatives of their home planet and its people. By taking that away just to make them a Chosen One type of character who wasn't even a Gallifreyan, the whole "last of the time lords" shtick is seemed useless since they never even belonged there.
For me, it's because it take the Doctor, an embarrassment to Time Lord society who barely graduated the Academy with a little over 50% on his _second_ try, and turns them into an interdimensional Chosen One who became the foundation for the most advanced, intelligent, and miraculous civilisation to ever exist.
The Doctor was a demonstration of how, despite being _well_ below average for his species, his ingenuity and willingness to help is what made him so universally renowned. He only became important because he was willing to do what no one else was and stand up for those weaker or inferior to him; that is the _only_ thing the Doctor should be known for, so giving them some inherent importance beyond their control (such as being the Time Lords' progenitor) _completely_ defeats the entire point of the character.
Retconning the Doctor into having always had infinite regenerations completely invalidates The Time of the Doctor; it was made clear that the reason the Doctor was able to stay on Trenzalore for so long without regenerating was because he'd _run out._ We know that the First Doctor lived for about 500 years before regenerating from old age, so we can assume that _that's_ how long an incarnation of a Time Lord can naturally last; the Eleventh Doctor was on Trenzalore for about _900_ years. In Heaven Sent, the Doctor states that the cells in a Time Lord's body will keep trying to regenerate even when they're too damaged to do so, and The Angels Take Manhattan also shows us that the Eleventh Doctor still had enough residual regeneration energy to heal River's hand; adding this all together tells us that the Eleventh Doctor, who'd spent roughly 1,200 years in the same body, managed to live so long because he had enough regeneration energy to keep himself alive, but not enough to give him a new body.
The fact that the Doctor has supposedly always had infinite regenerations means that, not only was the Doctor _not_ in danger of dying on Trenzalore, but he would've regenerated about 300 years into his stay on the planet. The entirety of The Name of the Doctor wouldn't have happened, nor would the "fall of the Eleventh" been anywhere _near_ as big of a deal, as there wouldn't have been any timeline where he ended up dying.
Usually, Doctor Who's retcons are minor enough and well-reasoned enough to be acceptable, but the "Timeless Child being the Doctor" thing was an idea that, even as just a concept, flies _right_ in the face of _everything_ the Doctor has ever been as a character; that's not even _mentioning_ how poorly thought-out and executed it was.
The Doctor has _always_ been a disappointment to the Time Lords who only became important due to his _actions._ Making him the origin of the Time Lords goes against that very clear, simple, and wholesome message, and instead gives off the implication that someone can only be important if they're born lucky.
Could you review TPOTD next? Given it’s basically a 90 minute sequel to this episode
This is exciting. I do like that RTD wants to focus about learning smtg does to a being the Doctor. Good potential.
Mb for the typos.
*about how *smtg like this *being like
I'm one of those who really liked the Timeless Child concept back in the day, and still does, because it tackles almost every single lore hole and inconsistency in the entire series, especially of the Classic one.
Ignoring lore drops was something you could do before the Internet and the streaming services; nowdays, having the possibility to rewatch, stop and replay the episodes as much as you want, you can't have anymore the luxury to ignore these things without deluding yourself of the contrary.
If you decide to watch the Classic Series and come across aspects that were never mentioned again or that totally contradict what would later be shown in the New Series, you can try as hard as you want to pretend those things were not actually there on screen. But they are indeed there. You can't deny their presence, not without the necessity of sufficient mental gymnastics to fool yourself.
And just as those aspects didn't ruin the character of the Doctor then, they haven't ruined him now either; everyone seems to think so. But, on investigating further, it turns out that this is an utterly superficial conception of the character.
The Timeless Child is what you obtain when someone finally decide to stop ignoring the show's past just for the sake of not disturbing the fans' wishful thinking.
You're not a real Doctor Who fan
"because it tackles almost every single plot hole in the entire series"
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@MichaelM28 Thank you, sir, for offering me further proof about how ruinous is fan entitlement, even going so far as to reserve the right to assign the licence of "true fan" to others who enjoy the franchise, whatever that means.
Your last comment can be summarized as such: _tell me you never watched the Classic Series properly without telling me you never watched the Classic Series properly_ .
While I can appreciate Davies trying to make the most out of a bad apple, I wish to god he just ignored it because it’s such a dumb plot point that made no sense didn’t need to happen.
I kind of dont mind the idea of the doctor being the timeless child, i think it has a lot of room to explore and is a good excuse for the doctor (and the show) to never die. I just personally find these episodes, along with most in this era, to be unmemorable. Like, i watched your videi about children of earth and i havent watched that in probably over 15 years, yet i remembered more about that story than any of this other than the timeless child reveal itself. I just found most of these episodes to be boring tbh. Ive really been enjoying the new series so far though, it has reminded me of why i fell in love with doctor who
absolutely, what i mean when i say missed potential like there is interesting concepts but the fact not much really happens like i struggle to explain to people where the ideas lead to. they’re all just said to us and that’s as far as it goes most the time
Personally I would have loved an elaborate retcon alá "and then it was all just a trick by the Master and nothing is true, lol. Remember how he likes to mess with the Matrix?"
Although I haven't got a clue how to get Gallifrey back again, again. That was just pissing huge potential for intrigue into the wind. The Time Lords are probably more interesting alive than dead, with modern takes on Gallifrey's politics and hubris (Big Finish, cough) being a massive opportunity.
you are going to talk in the future about, failed doctor who spin off, class(2016)???
If you want to accuse a showrunner of revealing too much about the doctor’s life, then that is Steven Moffat
true and perhaps another video to do entirely about this
Here's the big dumb thing about Ascent of the Cybermen - Cybermen don't kill humans, they convert them. that's their jam. They are acting a lot like the Daleks in this arc. The Timeless Child concept and execution are both trash. RTD will have to produce a miracle to get me on board. I just pretend it hasn't happened. The Chibnall era was just cr@p.
They do majority convert yes but they have been known to in cases where they can't convert for whatever reason behave that way. Especially corrupted ones. I don't think it makes little sense.
What an absolutely shocking season, it's not Dr Who anymore. All questions NO ANSWERS.
No it has not gotten better with time and all real fans still hate it
by this i assume you mean all real fans are miserable and get upset when someone else likes something they don’t then right?
@@jackantrobusofficial Don't give them the time of day, they have been whining about DW being dead on every video throughout the entirety of 15's run
@@bananatiergod15? 😧
My thoughts on the timeless child: ruclips.net/video/qQod1M7byOs/видео.htmlsi=90TbKt90hqjFTJNj
R.I.P Doctor Who 1963 - 2017