Do you believe Jane’s elaborate funeral was a sign of love from Henry, just a matter of form, or a combination of both? Let me know below and don't forget to SUBSCRIBE and check out my PATREON site for extra perks at www.patreon.com/historycalling
Read the Bible, from dust you came and to dust you shall return. Genesis. Now what does this so called fuss mean, does it make any difference to God. Such a show, she was lucky in a way because sge may have lost her head, once King Henry the Age got tired of his latest Queen. Poor lady, same as all the others who fell into this maniacs hands.
I do believe Henry grieved for her, because she died after bearing him a healthy son. He must have had flashbacks to when his beloved mother died from the exact same cause. So the fine funeral was partly from sentiment, and partly because she was the mother of the new heir to the kingdom. If she had died after delivering a dead child, the funeral would have been more subdued.
The fact she died so unexpectedly, made her a saint in Henry’s eyes. He didn’t have time to get bored of her. I’m sure if she had lived, she would’ve eventually done something wrong and he would’ve wanted to get rid of her
Not sure that he would have tried to get rid of her given she gave him a son and he probably would have hoped for a spare, after all she proved to be “able” to give him a son therefore better than the rest. I believe he would have avoided damaging the image of the mother for his long awaited sons sake. But I’m sure that he would have gotten tired of her rather soon and wouldn’t have remained faithful.
Who knows…but she did give a son…she would have a coronation, and stayed as queen, oh yes, he would have had mistresses but she would have stayed a queen…and if not so difficult a birth maybe another son?
I always wonder how he would have reacted if she had died birthing a daughter. I'm inclined to believe that he had feelings for Jane that were strengthened by the fact she gave him a son. She performed the ultimate sacrifice - an heir for her life - and I think he had to thank her for this in such an elaborate way. Also, his mother died in the same manner and we are aware of how much he adored her. Perhaps Jane's death reminded him of his mother and his output of grief was genuine sign of love.
That is an interesting question about what would have been different if Edward had been Edwina! Hmm, I don't know. I think as Queen consort, she would still have had a grand funeral, but Henry might not have mourned so much. It would have made her resemble Elizabeth of York all the more though, as her last child was also female.
Spot On! You hit the nail on the Head! Henry VIII had an Ego the size of a Mac Truck (And An appetite too). He didn't bury any other Wife with the Royal Pomp His Children buried Anne of Cleves.
He had already dumped two "beloved" wives once they disappointed him. Whether it was for their lack of male progeny or not, it seems reasonable to assume that he would been less bereaved while burying a female-producing queen. This does not mean that he would have approved a different funeral. He was too proud. Wife was dead, okay, on to the next...might get a son soon...but the public would get their ten cents worth of kingly grief.
I’m not convinced Henry ever truly loved anyone but himself. Infatuation, sure, but true love? I don’t know. I think it would have been pride and protocol that dictated the funeral trappings: pride, that Henry should make a show of royal power, pomp, and circumstance. Protocol, because it’s what was always done for deceased royals.
The only person Henry loved was his mother, he never really got over her death and I personally think he was looking for her qualities in a wife plus unconditional love. Uniquely he probably had more wives than mistresses.
I’d have to agree with you. The only reason to have not having had any objections to the grand funeral for the Queen Consort was the mere fact alone that she gave Henry what he so longed for, a son & his heir apparent!
Knowing the history of Henry VIII, he doesn’t strike as the type of truly loving someone else. I read that Henry regretted marrying her after seeing other women. Weather this is fiction it doesn’t change my opinion. She died after she gave him a son which was what he wanted the most. Henry was verbally and psychologically abusive towards her. When she tried to give Henry her input he shut her up and reminded her of what he did to Anne Boleyn. He wasn’t married to her long enough for him to tire of her. If Henry and Jane lived long enough to see their son die, Henry would blame Jane and tried to divorce her. This is just my opinion. I can’t imagine him having warm and fuzzy feelings. Thank you for another great video. I always look forward to them. Have a great weekend.
Thank you. Yes, I agree that he doesn't seem to have truly loved anyone else, though I'm sure he thought he did. I also think that had Jane lived, but Edward had died while both his parents were still alive and without a little brother, Jane might have found herself in a very difficult position indeed.
I think Henry was a fair weather husband. He liked, and even thought himself in love with, his wives when things were going good and they still could benefit him in some way, but pretty much as soon as they either pissed him off or lost their usefulness he was done with them. That’s why I think he wanted to be buried next to Jane and give her such an elaborate funeral as she died at seemingly her peak usefulness to him. It’s why I’m always skeptical when people say Henry really loved Catherine of Aragon because I think he just treated her well when he thought there was still a chance she could beat him a son and way before Anne Boleyn had arrived he felt Catherine no longer served any purpose in his life especially as both her powerful parents were long dead at that point and he Henry was far more settled into his reign so could have felt that her usefulness had run its course.
At the time in Henry's life, he was at the top of the world with a young marriage and newborn son. His emotional state probably drove what he did, regardless weather he loved her or not. At that moment in time, I believe he loved her as much as he was capable of.
I feel that Henry would have remained married to Jane as long as Edward was alive or another son had been born. As long as there was a son he "loved" her.
I honestly do not believe Henry VIII really loved any of his wives. He may have thought so at the time, but whenever that love was tested, Henry baled ever time. I think Henry really loved his mother, but her death at his young age may have affected his relationship with other woman. Therefore Jane's funeral was just a matter of form, although Henry probably thought it showed his love for his wife. Since Henry had very little to do with the funeral, it clearly didn't show his feelings.
I agree. No one really in love could abandon their wives (and in some cases the mothers of their children) in the way in which he did, let alone have two of them judicially murdered. Like you said, any time there was a real test of his love, he failed. He couldn't even be faithful to his wives until impotence problems and weight gained forced him to be.
I agree with you in a way but from a psychological perspective it's also possible that he identified (uncousciously) Jane with his own mother. Keep in mind that this time his son also loses his mother at the wrong time or prematurately. I think this may have been the only time Henry ever loved a wife, we should not forget that he chose to be along with her in eternum (same crypta).
I do believe that he did love his first wife Catherine of arragon. But the countless failed attempts to get a male child, his pride and the head injuries played a huge role in the later devastating events. His personality changed rapidly. He never did love any of the other five. Whatever he did for jane's funeral was probably because of the male child 🤷🏻♀️
That’s what I always thought!!! My father and I were talking the other day about Henry VIII and his relationships with his wives, and I had to recount about how distraught Henry was when his mother died when he was a young boy- and because of that loss, it ultimately lead to his inability to have a normal and loving relationship with woman as he got older. Glad someone else agrees with me on this reasoning of why he was never able to keep a wife!
Jane gave Henry what he was most ocd about. A son, thus he felt she was the only woman/wife. Who ever actual did her job as a wife. Henry wanted to show that giving him what he wanted. Was going to be remembered an well taken care of.
I think so too. It's very telling that it was her he chose to be buried next to rather than being buried elsewhere and waiting for Catherine Parr to join him.
I agree. I think it the ways that his manipulation, status, and the muddied familial and personal motivations/ whether these women ever had a say at all says a lot about the ways in which we so easily give and take away agency from historical women depending on the story we want to tell in that moment as historians and as a society
Though he desperately needed a son, I believe having a son was more about Henry's obsession with how he was percieved by the rest of Europe. A virile man and king. Katherine of Aragon lost sons and through 6 pregnancies had only one living daughter, yet he stayed with her for over 20 years. Katherine of Aragon was royalty from a powerful family. She was important in her own right. By marrying her, Henry gained prestige throughout Europe. He liked the optics. Jane had no prospects for marriage before Henry. She was on her way to becoming an old maid. She had served Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn and had been at court for years. Yet Henry seemed to have taken no notice of her. Unlike Katherine of Aragon, Jane had no prestige to bring to the table. Not very educated, not witty or attractive. It seems that Henry wanted Jane only because he needed a son. Had she not delivered Henry a son in a timely manner, or had she given him a daughter, Henry would have dropped her like a bad habit. His ego was bigger than he was. It is kind of chilling. Henry wanted a son bad enough to extinguish the life of his queen. Jane wanted to be queen so bad she didnt seem to mind this at all. . Henry got his son and lost the one woman who gave it to him. Jane did not last long enough to wallow in her victory as queen. Karma.
@@lagatita1623 it doesn’t matter that his first wife gave birth to a son. He died right after child birth. Therefore, Henry saw her as a failure. The same as Anna Boleyn that miscarried a son. Jane gave him a healthy son that lived to rule after he died. That was the only thing he wanted.
I’ll bet she was ecstatic! She must have known about Henry’s obsession with getting a legitimate male heir and what happened to those who didn’t perform up to speed. So, what a relief! She was safe, even though she must also have known that he’d continue to bed any female he wanted. Again, what a relief! She had the son, all’s well with the world. Pity about the puerperal fever.
Another fascinating video. It amazes me that Ms. History Calling is able to produce a video requiring this much research and production every week. I always wonder about the process of making these. I suppose part of each video includes bits of info gleaned through years of research on a particular time period and not just something cooked up from scratch each week.
Thank you so much. Yes, they are hard work, but with the Tudors in particular, I've been reading about them for a very long time. They're what got me interested in history as a kid in fact. I therefore already have all the books I need lying around the house and I've already read them. I also take short cuts in that I'm using a lot of the same images in these videos, so that saves a lot of time as I don't have to go and research new pictures. The non-Tudor videos are actually much harder work.
Henry was full of his self importance and loved himself,this extravagant funeral for his queen,was probably normal for a royal,thank history calling superb as always.😀
To say this was a extravagant procession is putting it mildly. Thank you for bringing these historical event’s to reality. I would not have wanted to live in those times, however, it most certainly would have been extremely exciting to have been able to witness any of the events. If history was this interesting back in my school days, I might have gotten a B instead of an F. Thanks again and love your channel.
Thank you so much for your weekly episodes. I look forward each week to your release. I love learning and being reacquainted with topics I learned about years ago. Your descriptions are superb and viewers truly get a personal sense of key historical events.
Love your channel! Would you consider doing a video on the effects of Henry's religious policies on Ireland? My great grandparents emigrated from County Clare & when my family and I visited, we noticed a lot of old buildings without roofs- the locals we asked said they were old churches & the roofs had been removed during Henry's reign. I'd love an in depth explanation from an Irish history buff! Thanks!
Ah yes, they'd be referring to the dissolution of the monasteries. I've used footage of a couple of such places in my videos. Henry's religious policies on Ireland would be a very broad and at times, quite nebulous topic. To be honest, I'm not sure I could do it justice in a RUclips video and I think it would take a long time to research as well as his policies affected different groups of people in different ways. If you want to learn more about this time period in Irish history though, I would recommend S.J. Conolly's book, Contested Island: Ireland 1460-1630. Many thanks for watching and commenting.
Yes, I think it would suggest that her embalming was done better than Henry's (so no coffin busting explosive results!) and the coffin was made better too. It may have been less jostled around as well, so less chance of damage.
Someone was asking about whether Jane's family was at her funeral. I ran across a reference to her brothers in a freelance history writer's blog. Evidently, Edward, Earl of Hertford, joined the funeral cortege traveling from Hampton Court to Windsor as one of the gentlemen accompanying the women following the Lady Mary. Then, "on Monday November 12, a great ceremony was staged to lay the Queen to rest with full honors in a vault beneath the Garter Chapel before a crowd that included her brothers Edward and Thomas." The writer's references were given as “The Seymours of Wolf Hall: A Tudor Family Story” by David Loades, “The Six Wives of Henry VIII” by Alison Weir, “Henry VIII: The King and His Court” by Alison Weir.
Wonderful episode. Henry may have loved Jane Seymour (as much as he was capable of loving anyone other than himself) but I feel that the elaborate funeral was mostly done for show. Who knows how long she would have lasted if she didn't die after giving birth to Edward.
Thank you so much. I wonder the same myself. I doubt he would have abandoned the mother of his son, but I'm sure there would have been plenty of affairs. That was after all, his modus operandi.
@@JerryD121657 Oh, Henry could _always_ find a way. He changed the law so that he could a) execute Katherine Howard for not being a virgin when he married her, & b) execute Jane Boleyn even tho she was insane, so I agree: son or no son, Jane was no safer than anyone else from Henry's selfish wrath :( He just couldn't do anything that'd affect Edward's position as the legitimate heir, like annulling their marriage.
As he mother of a male heir, I can only imagine that her position was secure. Henry could not afford to have any questions raised re the legitimacy of his son. Jane was safe...probably not HAPPY, but certainly safe.
I think that the pomp was a combination of genuine grief and pageantry. I believe Henry loved her as much as he was capable. It was such a short relationship, he was probably still in lust. He also grieved the loss of the woman who gave him a son and in his mind, would have given him another. I question whether or not he was capable of genuine love of any individual
Four years ago I visited Windsor castle and St George’s Chapel. It is a beautiful place. ❤️😊 I got to see the stone slab with Jane and Henry’s names on it. Yes you aren’t allowed to take photos inside the chapel or castle. I really enjoyed my day there x I would highly recommend a visit. 😊👍
It is gorgeous. I was there myself a number of years ago too. It's a pity about the photography ban. I remember wandering into a room and seeing the portrait of Elizabeth I aged 13 in the red dress (I'd forgotten it was kept there) and REALLY wanting to take a pic.
@@HistoryCalling it is a lovely place. The portraits are beautiful, they were my favourite part ❤️ we got to see King Henry the Eight’s armour aswell there 😱 he really was huge 😮😊
It took me a bit to figure out what "accrased" meant, the reason why Mary couldn't continued at chief mourner. It seems to mean "acrazed" or very upset, in this case, in terrible grief. This is the first time I've read this and I think it speaks volumes about how much Mary had come to love Jane.
Yes, I knew that Mary was very upset, but that word doesn't really exist in English anymore (in either spelling), so it was one of those ones that was difficult to give a definite 'translation' of. I agree Mary was very fond of Jane and it must have been a heavy blow to lose her and less than 2 years after she lost her mother Catherine too.
@@HistoryCalling It's mentioned in the state papers a few times and I had to extrapolate its meaning from the context (mostly aimed at women who are, in the male writer's estimation, being hysterical). I'm glad to see that Mary was fully recovered enough the following day to take up her post as chief mourner again.
I found this particular detail and the descriptive word accrased an interesting note and observation about dear lady Mary. Being of Irish Catholic ancestry myself, I recall several wakes and funerals as a young child where older Aunts were “keening” over the coffin of the newly departed. This activity is sort of a hybrid crying, shrieking, praying/chanting, and singing the purpose being to “protect” the soul of the departed. Any somewhat rational person could look upon this grief display and righteously describe it as accrased, though I’m quite sure Lady Mary did no such thing, but even a public display of deep grief might be described as such as other commenters point out as a gentle diss from male reporter / observers to women mourners. I also agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that Jane’s services were Catholic services regardless of his whole “I am the head of the Church of England ballyhoo”. Since as a Catholic it is extremely unlikely Mary would agree to such a public prominent role in religious services which her beliefs labeled the separated brethren. That is not to say she most certainly wouldn’t have privately grieved and had Catholic masses said in behest of her step-mother. Once again EXCELLENT episode.
Jane just didn’t live long enough for Henry VIII to get tired of her and get rid of her for someone younger and more exciting to him. He was what we now call a narcissist.
Was Jane ever publicly crowned Queen? Was that even necessary? May I also ask about the length of time between death and burial? Was that a custom for royalty only? And finally ( I know you are glad!) where was her family? Thank you so much for your videos, you always send me off on various journeys with each one.
The short answers to the first two questions are no and no. I think plague may have delayed plans for her coronation and then they just never got around to it. I think that much of a delay between death and burial was for the rich only. The poor wouldn't have had the space to keep dead bodies hanging around that long and possibly weren't able to have them professionally embalmed either. I'm afraid I don't know off the top of my head where all her family were.
As Henry was obsessed with a legitimate heir, I would guess that the elaborate funeral was to secure Jane's position and thereby her son's position in history. I believe Henry loved his first wife and no one else. I believe he fell out of love with Catherine of Aragon and from that point on, he became infatuated with specific women, but never loved them.
I wonder sometimes about how much he really loved CoA. He treated her so terribly in the end and if not for her Spanish family, I dread to think what he might have done to be rid of her.
I think Jane’s funeral was predominantly a matter of form. She was a Queen of England. It would have been very strange if all the usual formalities had not taken place. Also, neither Catherine of Aragon or Anne Boleyn got the funerals they otherwise would have had as Queen because of their circumstances, Catherine because she was buried as Dowager Princess of Wales rather than as the Queen she was, and Anne Boleyn because she was buried as a convicted traitor. I think Henry would have been quite keen on giving Jane the full funeral rites, in a sense to mark her out as his true Queen and wife. I think it’s very hard to gauge how Henry really felt about Jane and how real his grief was when she died. I think he romanticised her because she’d given him the legitimate son he was so desperate for. I think the very fact that she died also allowed him to project her as his great love, and it’s not as if anyone would have been about to contradict him on that. I suppose it could be argued that part of his aversion to Anne of Cleves could have stemmed from him still grieving for Jane and not really being ready to marry anyone else, but I’m not convinced. I think if Jane had lived it wouldn’t have taken Henry very long to get bored with her and take a mistress. It wouldn’t even surprise me that much if he had a mistress while Jane was pregnant with Edward, though I have no proof of that. I think it really comes down to what was more important to Henry, the loss of Jane, his wife, or the birth of Edward, his son and heir. Ultimately I think Edward’s birth was far more important to Henry because it secured the succession, and the loss of Jane was a price worth paying for that.
I agree with everything you said. :-) I might do a video at some point on Catherine of Aragon's funeral. Now that I have one on Jane's, it would be interesting to compare the funeral Catherine ought to have had with what she actually got.
Much of the pagentry reminds me of the peripatetic journeys of HMTQ Elizabeth II’s coffin to lie in state in Scotland, N Ireland, Wales and England. These honors seemed to be Jane Seymour’s right as the mother of the Heir apparent. Poor Catherine of Aragon was exiled and Anne Boleyn was executed and disgraced. Perhaps Henry VIII was pleased to honor what he considered a legitimate wife, even though it was his own decree. Perhaps it was a veiled statement to the Vatican, who refused to legitimize his marriage by granting an annulment to his marriage to C of Aragon.
Enjoyed the video, imagine living in this time period, how different our lives would be. Also, could you consider in the future covering the English civil war?
In 2019 I managed to attend an Eventide service at St. George's Chapel. I was stunned to see Jane Seymour's grave right in the middle of the processional aisle. A rectangle at floor level, which everyone walked on.
If anybody is interested in reading up on Jane Seymour there is a series of book titled ‘Wolf Hall’ by Hillary Mantel. Wolf Hall was Jane’s home along with her brothers, Tom and Ned who rose to power while Jane was alive and married to Henry.
Sorry to be late with my viewing and commenting; it's baseball playoff time and I'm showing my Yank colors by checking them out. Another wonderfully detailed video; thanks so much. Question: do you have a favorite among the book recommendations listed? I'll use your links. Be well and enjoy your weekend. 🙏
Another incredibly well researched video with very well reasoned opinions. I agree that it was a bit of both, and immense appreciation for her giving him his son, and perhaps even a bit of lingering grief over the loss of his own mother? But perhaps I'm just reaching there. Also being left alone when he'd consistently had the attentions of either wife, prospective wife, or mistress for years. But I do think he had a special appreciation for Jane, if nothing else. Edit: Typo fixed from 'their' to 'there'
Thank you. Yes, it was a long time since he'd been without a woman. In fact this would be the first time he didn't have a wife for more than a matter of days since he married Catherine back in 1509.
Thank you, another interesting and well presented video. It may have been a bit of both, though whether Henry was capable of loving anyone is questionable. Jane had given him Edward, one wonders what would have happened if it was another girl.
Jane died the same way as Henry's mother which hit him hard as he was very close to her. He was at a stage where with his heir accomplished, he wanted to settle into familyhood, & show himself a happy, generous, caring king. All those dreams were shattered.
The gowns of this era are just amazing. Just love them. I think he only did it because she was the one who gave him the son & heir he needed, plus the fact that she died before he could find a reason to dispose of her like he did the others.
Given how fast Henry and Jane married, I seriously doubt he ever loved her. No long courtship as with Anne. Do we have any romantic letters between Henry and Jane? I think the funeral pomp and circumstances was most likely out of respect for her good deed of giving birth to Edward. Awesome topic for a video so professionally produced, as usually. Love the little snide remarks ha ha. Thank you!!!!
Thank you. There is just one letter that I can think of between Henry and Jane in which he told her to pay no heed to a ballad circulating about them (this was before their marriage). If you see my video on whether Jane stole Henry from Anne I think I mentioned it there.
As usual another interesting video. I anticipate and enjoy all. I do not think King Henry viii could really love anyone but I think he had respect and perhaps a bit of sentimental feeling for Jane since she gave him a son and died before she could disappoint him. Let’s face it we are all imperfect and eventually she may have done something that irritated him. Of course we know what that could lead to! Thanks for another enjoyable Friday night! 😊
You're welcome. Glad you liked it. Yes, I think there was a sentimental attachment there that probably wouldn't have appeared if she hadn't have died giving him Edward. No doubt, he would have cheated on her if she'd lived, as he always did (when able).
@@elizabethmcglothlin5406 Well, Henry wouldn’t have annulled the marriage, because of Edward. But, Jane didn’t have the protection of a outside powerful family like Catherine of Aragon and Anne of Cleves. So, we don’t really know what would have happened. But,I think that she would have had some protection due to having given Henry a son that outlived him.
These Tudor lists are so very detailed; I get a bit zoned out. I think Henry loved Jane about as much as he was capable of loving any wife or mistress. Which wasn't all that much. I wonder if he confused the settled sort of love for no longer in love or if he just never got past temporary passion. Anyway, I think the funeral was a mix, but a mix that leaned toward Henry's emotions a bit rather than being an even split between emotion and form.
Yes, I'm not sure how much he really loved anyone either. His longest relationship was obviously with Catherine of Aragon, but given how easily he threw her away, it's hard to say that he truly loved her.
I think Henry was capable of falling in love but not staying in love. He fell in love with Katherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour, Kathryn Howard, and possibly Bessie Blount, but the shine always wore off. It wore off of Katherine when she started getting old, but he would have kept her as queen regardless if she’d had a living son. It wore off of Anne pretty quickly following her miscarriage and Kathryn when he adultery was exposed. Jane died while the shine was still on, as it were. If she hadn’t died, it would have worn off eventually. Though as she was the mother of his heir, he would have kept her as his queen but largely ignored her in favour of more interesting mistresses. As it was, Henry still loved her at the time of her death and the fact she’d produced a son pretty much put her in sainthood territory in his eyes so of course she got a lavish funeral.
I wonder why Jane wasn’t given a large tomb like other royalty. Or Henry either. Was his coffin ever repaired once the vault was closed the last time or is it still broken like in the photo. It’s ironic how underwhelming his final resting place is compared to the extravagant way he lived…
"Accrase" is an archaic/provincial synonym of "to crush" or "to destroy." It probably, although somewhat melodramatically, meant that Mary was on the outs with Henry.
I visited Hampton court palace in July of 2014 absolutely love it.I agreed with other people that Henry loved himself and NO 1 else, all he wanted was many sons he did have a son ,but still not happy.
I am fascinated to know what the blur is around 3:16 in the picture of the entrance to the Chapel Royal. Could it be a photo of some sort of spirit haunting the place? Hmmmmmm.
The reason why Jane Seymour was so "loved" by Henry VIII was, because she gave him the baby son he wanted for so long and also the fact she died so soon, made her almost divine. But what if she would survive the childbirth, would she be loved that much too or did he took mistresses, like he always had?
I doubt she had food poisoning. In those days they didn't know about bacteria and washing hands. The midwife handled Jane without washing her hands and introduced bacteria to her cervix, and this would have been added to if Jane had internal rips and tears, making it more accessible for the bacteria to enter the uterus. And because they didn't know these things back then, some of her ladies blamed "Her fantasies of food" which they considered unsuitable for a new mother.
I don't think it was food poisoning either. Most of the time the most obvious answer is the correct one and I certainly think that's the case with Jane. I'm with post-delivery complications (her placenta doesn't appear to have completely detached) and infection too.
Peritonitis , many woman died from this. I was born in 1954 and my mother who delivered at a modern hospital was infected while giving birth. She couldn't come home for 2 weeks or I . Penicillin was in use and my mother was saved.
@@HistoryCalling Peritonitis was probably the cause . It happened in modern times . My mother was infected in 54 when I was born , at a hospital. She remained in hospital for 2 weeks and treated with penicillin .
Another wonderful video! Since Jane was the only one to give him a surviving, legitimate son and given the ignorance at the time of which parent determines the sex of the baby, I can see his grief partially being related to him feeling he may never have any other sons without her. Just kind of an off-the-wall thought. I agree that Henry probably never really loved anyone but himself. I am curious as I am unfamiliar - was it common to separate the internal organs from the rest of corpse and bury them elsewhere during this era?
Thank you. Regarding the organs being removed - this didn't have to be done, but yes, it was fairly common. They had to be taken out for embalming and then if they weren't buried, they'd rot (I mean they'd rot anyway, but at least if they were buried you'd hopefully be spared the stink). Burying them as close as possible was just a matter of convenience I would think, but again, I'm sure they didn't have to be buried near where the person died.
Yes, this was very common. The most celebrated churches containing the hearts and viscera are the Ducal Chapel in St. Stephen's Cathedral and the Loreto Chapel in the Augustinian Church, both in Vienna. What is remarkable are the urns themselves. Many are ornate like Faberge eggs, while others are quite plain, depending upon the instruction given by the dying monarch.
@@HistoryCalling Thank you for the information! I had no idea!! I knew it was common in ancient Egypt - I didn't know it was done elsewhere in different eras. It certainly makes sense. I strive to learn at least one new thing every day - this was today's! 😃
@@HistoryCalling I know it was quite common during the Middle Ages, where you could have someone's heart buried in one place, their entrails in another, and the actual body somewhere else again. I think it depended on the locations that had the most meaning to the person in life.
I don’t think Henry had the capacity to truly love anyone but himself. His attitude towards Jane is a result of her having birthed a son and died before he could tire of her. He threatened her several times, like when she tried to advise him and he reminded her of what happened to Anne. And though not confirmed, Jane’s banning of French fashions possibly came as a result of one of Henry’s scare tactics.
You can see modern photos of the chapel (and you can spot the marble slab) from Harry & Meghan’s wedding! Lovely video, thank you for your hard work. 💕
Yes, I would love to have used one of those. Pesky copyright though. It didn't seem worth the risk of being told to take the video down or edit out part of it when I'd been able to find an old photo to use. Glad you liked the video. Thanks for watching and commenting. :-)
Yes, I'm thinking of doing a video on how (in)accurate The Tudors was. It's neither as good nor as bad as I think some people believe. A lot of the details were correct for instance, even in cases where no one who wasn't an historian would know.
I started watching it on Showtime right when it came out. I didn't do allot of research into Henry before that but I liked the way they did it. His sister that was married to Brandon was a character I wish they would've kept on a little longer.
I wonder what it actually looked like and how elaborate it was. Henry gave her a huge funeral because he got what he needed but I do believe he was fond of her.
I wouldn't be surprised if A] Henry consistently got really, really drunk in the days after Jane's death, and B] during that time, his lowered inhibitions caused him to think about all he'd done to get where he was in that moment. He must've wondered, however briefly, if this was some kind of Divine Payback for using his court system to murder Anne Boleyn and the men accused with her. (10/10/2021)
I wonder what were the crowds, if any, gathering to watch the processions? I suppose it was only possible with bells and word of mouth to let people know but one of my questions is, how much of this was done as spectacle (royal majesty and all that) and how much was internal ritual? It is truly fascinating.
Oh I definitely think there was some spectacle involved, to show off to the people how powerful and wealthy the royals were. Funnily enough, in later centuries, royal funerals actually became a lot more low key. They were held at night and only had short processions from the Prince's Chamber in Westminster (where the lying in state would occur for a day or two), to Westminster Abbey.
Fascinating, as per usual. My thoughts are echoed below in the comments. I am an enthusiastic family historian, genealogist. Especially interesting is that I have a 8x Great-grandfather with the surname Cleave/Cleve birth dated 1672 (I haven't been able to take my tree back further). My DNA ethnicity shows a small percentage of German Heritage - so, there is a small possibility that Ann of Cleves was/is in some way my ancestor. I just love history and ancestry, it's fascinating..
Thank you. I love genealogy too. That's fascinating about a possible link to Cleves. I hope you're related to her somehow too. It'd be a great story to tell at dinner parties :-)
Taken her entrails out and putting them in a container and have them displayed and honored sounds a little like Egyptian kind of thing. Also wrapping her body too in fine linen about 2 or 3 times around her. Was england aware of the burial practices of royal mummies in Egypt at that time? Seems its just a luck coincidence, and they were not aware of it until later but, when we're the crusades if they happened before this time that might had something to do it
Maybe King Henry did indeed love her, she was the only wife that gave him what he wanted which was a son & heir to the throne. I also wondered why they too out her entrails? Just something they did for corpses? Thank you for this interesting video ❤️
This is why eventually the line of succession was changed in 2012 .. never again .. only if our American systems of government learn .. the secret to life is .. learning and evolving .
I think Henry was more upset about losing someone who was shown to be the only one capable of giving him what he wanted, a legitimate heir. She didn't live long enough to fail him in this regard as she obviously wasn't able to have a second pregnancy to either fail or produce a girl. As such, hypothetically she could have produced many more sons that he would never have. He mourned her womb, not her as his wife.
It was part of the embalming procedure, to slow down decomposition. They were interred I think, just because there was nothing else to do with them at that point. It also meant that multiple places could say they had the honour to be the burial spot of a royal.
I wonder if Henry remembered the fate of his mother, Elizabeth of York, who suffered a similar fate in 1503. How ironic, that after another 3 wives, Henry's only legitimate male heir, Edward VI, was to die at 15.
This may sound ridiculous, but listening to older videos, I just realized I don’t really know what it means/meant to be allowed at court. My idea of being “at court” is somehow meshed with old Blackadder episodes 😂. Did the members of the court sit in a big room and eat all day? How did court change over years? We’re jesters real? I’ve just realized I really don’t know!
Being at court essentially means being wherever the monarch is at any given time (usually a grand palace). They could and did eat together sometimes, though equally the most prominent members will have had their own rooms and could eat there sometimes too. Others will have had their own houses in the vicinity of court (which was usually in London) and will have mostly eaten and slept there. Yes, jesters were real. You can see Will Somers, Henry VIII's jester/court fool in some paintings of Henry and his family. As for how court changed over the years, I guess this depends on how many years you're talking about. There wouldn't have ever been any seismic shifts that I can think of. Just a slow move towards the modern era, where far fewer people are around the monarch on a day to day basis and far fewer are live-in servants.
I almost died after going back to the hospital 6 days after giving birth to my 4 child. I went back to the hospital with a 104-degree fever (and rising!) and was hospitalized for another week as my body went septic. Had it been the Tudor era, I would be dead! As it was my OB cut me off and told me I was done! Jane did NOT have food poisoning! It was "Child bed fever!" She went septic.
Do you believe Jane’s elaborate funeral was a sign of love from Henry, just a matter of form, or a combination of both? Let me know below and don't forget to SUBSCRIBE and check out my PATREON site for extra perks at www.patreon.com/historycalling
Read the Bible, from dust you came and to dust you shall return. Genesis. Now what does this so called fuss mean, does it make any difference to God. Such a show, she was lucky in a way because sge may have lost her head, once King Henry the Age got tired of his latest Queen. Poor lady, same as all the others who fell into this maniacs hands.
Perhaps a recollection of Henry VIII's or his son, Edward's funerals--in addition to those of Mary and Elizabeth
I do believe Henry grieved for her, because she died after bearing him a healthy son. He must have had flashbacks to when his beloved mother died from the exact same cause. So the fine funeral was partly from sentiment, and partly because she was the mother of the new heir to the kingdom.
If she had died after delivering a dead child, the funeral would have been more subdued.
My video on whether Henry VIII exploded after death gives some details regarding his funeral, if you're interested.
I commented below, but basically I think it was a matter of form.
The fact she died so unexpectedly, made her a saint in Henry’s eyes. He didn’t have time to get bored of her. I’m sure if she had lived, she would’ve eventually done something wrong and he would’ve wanted to get rid of her
Maybe not because she granted his greatest wish of giving him a male heir
Not sure that he would have tried to get rid of her given she gave him a son and he probably would have hoped for a spare, after all she proved to be “able” to give him a son therefore better than the rest. I believe he would have avoided damaging the image of the mother for his long awaited sons sake. But I’m sure that he would have gotten tired of her rather soon and wouldn’t have remained faithful.
Who knows…but she did give a son…she would have a coronation, and stayed as queen, oh yes, he would have had mistresses but she would have stayed a queen…and if not so difficult a birth maybe another son?
I always wonder how he would have reacted if she had died birthing a daughter. I'm inclined to believe that he had feelings for Jane that were strengthened by the fact she gave him a son. She performed the ultimate sacrifice - an heir for her life - and I think he had to thank her for this in such an elaborate way. Also, his mother died in the same manner and we are aware of how much he adored her. Perhaps Jane's death reminded him of his mother and his output of grief was genuine sign of love.
That is an interesting question about what would have been different if Edward had been Edwina! Hmm, I don't know. I think as Queen consort, she would still have had a grand funeral, but Henry might not have mourned so much. It would have made her resemble Elizabeth of York all the more though, as her last child was also female.
she was Queen Consort of England and she was given the appropriate funeral for that time
Spot On! You hit the nail on the Head! Henry VIII had an Ego the size of a Mac Truck (And An appetite too). He didn't bury any other Wife with the Royal Pomp His Children buried Anne of Cleves.
He had already dumped two "beloved" wives once they disappointed him. Whether it was for their lack of male progeny or not, it seems reasonable to assume that he would been less bereaved while burying a female-producing queen. This does not mean that he would have approved a different funeral. He was too proud. Wife was dead, okay, on to the next...might get a son soon...but the public would get their ten cents worth of kingly grief.
Yes, right on..
I’m not convinced Henry ever truly loved anyone but himself. Infatuation, sure, but true love? I don’t know. I think it would have been pride and protocol that dictated the funeral trappings: pride, that Henry should make a show of royal power, pomp, and circumstance. Protocol, because it’s what was always done for deceased royals.
Yes, I think that's a good summary of his feelings towards other people and the reasons for a grand funeral for Jane too.
I 100% agree with your assessment of this situation. Very well put!
Definitely agree. I also feel that he felt bad for himself as she had succeeded in giving him his desperately desired male heir and was now gone.
The only person Henry loved was his mother, he never really got over her death and I personally think he was looking for her qualities in a wife plus unconditional love. Uniquely he probably had more wives than mistresses.
I’d have to agree with you. The only reason to have not having had any objections to the grand funeral for the Queen Consort was the mere fact alone that she gave Henry what he so longed for, a son & his heir apparent!
Knowing the history of Henry VIII, he doesn’t strike as the type of truly loving someone else. I read that Henry regretted marrying her after seeing other women. Weather this is fiction it doesn’t change my opinion. She died after she gave him a son which was what he wanted the most. Henry was verbally and psychologically abusive towards her. When she tried to give Henry her input he shut her up and reminded her of what he did to Anne Boleyn. He wasn’t married to her long enough for him to tire of her. If Henry and Jane lived long enough to see their son die, Henry would blame Jane and tried to divorce her. This is just my opinion. I can’t imagine him having warm and fuzzy feelings. Thank you for another great video. I always look forward to them. Have a great weekend.
Thank you. Yes, I agree that he doesn't seem to have truly loved anyone else, though I'm sure he thought he did. I also think that had Jane lived, but Edward had died while both his parents were still alive and without a little brother, Jane might have found herself in a very difficult position indeed.
I think Henry was a fair weather husband. He liked, and even thought himself in love with, his wives when things were going good and they still could benefit him in some way, but pretty much as soon as they either pissed him off or lost their usefulness he was done with them. That’s why I think he wanted to be buried next to Jane and give her such an elaborate funeral as she died at seemingly her peak usefulness to him. It’s why I’m always skeptical when people say Henry really loved Catherine of Aragon because I think he just treated her well when he thought there was still a chance she could beat him a son and way before Anne Boleyn had arrived he felt Catherine no longer served any purpose in his life especially as both her powerful parents were long dead at that point and he Henry was far more settled into his reign so could have felt that her usefulness had run its course.
Yes, I'm not too convinced that he really loved anyone but himself either and I certainly agree with your 'fair weather' comment.
At the time in Henry's life, he was at the top of the world with a young marriage and newborn son. His emotional state probably drove what he did, regardless weather he loved her or not. At that moment in time, I believe he loved her as much as he was capable of.
Yes, I think he loved (or at least believed he loved) her too.
I feel that Henry would have remained married to Jane as long as Edward was alive or another son had been born. As long as there was a son he "loved" her.
Yes, I think so too. In fact I think you could say the same about Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn too.
That explains why he was buried with her and none of the others.
I honestly do not believe Henry VIII really loved any of his wives. He may have thought so at the time, but whenever that love was tested, Henry baled ever time. I think Henry really loved his mother, but her death at his young age may have affected his relationship with other woman. Therefore Jane's funeral was just a matter of form, although Henry probably thought it showed his love for his wife. Since Henry had very little to do with the funeral, it clearly didn't show his feelings.
I agree. No one really in love could abandon their wives (and in some cases the mothers of their children) in the way in which he did, let alone have two of them judicially murdered. Like you said, any time there was a real test of his love, he failed. He couldn't even be faithful to his wives until impotence problems and weight gained forced him to be.
I agree with you in a way but from a psychological perspective it's also possible that he identified (uncousciously) Jane with his own mother. Keep in mind that this time his son also loses his mother at the wrong time or prematurately. I think this may have been the only time Henry ever loved a wife, we should not forget that he chose to be along with her in eternum (same crypta).
I do believe that he did love his first wife Catherine of arragon. But the countless failed attempts to get a male child, his pride and the head injuries played a huge role in the later devastating events. His personality changed rapidly.
He never did love any of the other five. Whatever he did for jane's funeral was probably because of the male child 🤷🏻♀️
He was grateful to her for finally giving him a son but true love was something at that point of his life that Henry wasn't capable of
That’s what I always thought!!! My father and I were talking the other day about Henry VIII and his relationships with his wives, and I had to recount about how distraught Henry was when his mother died when he was a young boy- and because of that loss, it ultimately lead to his inability to have a normal and loving relationship with woman as he got older. Glad someone else agrees with me on this reasoning of why he was never able to keep a wife!
Jane gave Henry what he was most ocd about. A son, thus he felt she was the only woman/wife. Who ever actual did her job as a wife. Henry wanted to show that giving him what he wanted. Was going to be remembered an well taken care of.
I think so too. It's very telling that it was her he chose to be buried next to rather than being buried elsewhere and waiting for Catherine Parr to join him.
I agree. I think it the ways that his manipulation, status, and the muddied familial and personal motivations/ whether these women ever had a say at all says a lot about the ways in which we so easily give and take away agency from historical women depending on the story we want to tell in that moment as historians and as a society
Though he desperately needed a son, I believe having a son was more about Henry's obsession with how he was percieved by the rest of Europe. A virile man and king. Katherine of Aragon lost sons and through 6 pregnancies had only one living daughter, yet he stayed with her for over 20 years. Katherine of Aragon was royalty from a powerful family. She was important in her own right. By marrying her, Henry gained prestige throughout Europe. He liked the optics. Jane had no prospects for marriage before Henry. She was on her way to becoming an old maid. She had served Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn and had been at court for years. Yet Henry seemed to have taken no notice of her. Unlike Katherine of Aragon, Jane had no prestige to bring to the table. Not very educated, not witty or attractive. It seems that Henry wanted Jane only because he needed a son. Had she not delivered Henry a son in a timely manner, or had she given him a daughter, Henry would have dropped her like a bad habit. His ego was bigger than he was. It is kind of chilling. Henry wanted a son bad enough to extinguish the life of his queen. Jane wanted to be queen so bad she didnt seem to mind this at all. . Henry got his son and lost the one woman who gave it to him. Jane did not last long enough to wallow in her victory as queen. Karma.
First wife had baby boy too but he didnt survive
@@lagatita1623 it doesn’t matter that his first wife gave birth to a son. He died right after child birth. Therefore, Henry saw her as a failure. The same as Anna Boleyn that miscarried a son. Jane gave him a healthy son that lived to rule after he died. That was the only thing he wanted.
I’ll bet she was ecstatic! She must have known about Henry’s obsession with getting a legitimate male heir and what happened to those who didn’t perform up to speed. So, what a relief! She was safe, even though she must also have known that he’d continue to bed any female he wanted. Again, what a relief! She had the son, all’s well with the world. Pity about the puerperal fever.
Yes, I'm sure right after the birth she was over the moon and thought all her prayers had been answered (as did Henry).
@@HistoryCallingyep, right on..
Yesss. New video. Always need some Tudor history when I'm cleaning ❤️ Thank you for yet an other fantastic video
You're welcome. Enjoy and good luck with the cleaning :-)
I just love listening to you. Your voice is so relaxing and as a Tudor obsessor, I just can't get enough! Thank you and keep 'em coming!!
Thank you. That's very kind of you to say and I will :-)
True her voice is captivating. Makes me want to listen..
I love to hear her voice too and love her videos as well.
And also love history
Excellent! Thank you, esp for adding that water colour of the coffins in the vault. I had never seen that before.
You're welcome. Yes, it's unusual to see royal coffins actually in situ like that after burial.
Thank you so much for this wonderful video on the death and funeral of Jane Seymour.
You're very welcome :-)
I think he loved the fact that he finally had a son and he was grateful to the person who died giving him what he wanted.
Another fascinating video. It amazes me that Ms. History Calling is able to produce a video requiring this much research and production every week. I always wonder about the process of making these. I suppose part of each video includes bits of info gleaned through years of research on a particular time period and not just something cooked up from scratch each week.
Thank you so much. Yes, they are hard work, but with the Tudors in particular, I've been reading about them for a very long time. They're what got me interested in history as a kid in fact. I therefore already have all the books I need lying around the house and I've already read them. I also take short cuts in that I'm using a lot of the same images in these videos, so that saves a lot of time as I don't have to go and research new pictures. The non-Tudor videos are actually much harder work.
Henry was full of his self importance and loved himself,this extravagant funeral for his queen,was probably normal for a royal,thank history calling superb as always.😀
I agree. Thanks for watching :-)
@@HistoryCalling always a pleasure,enjoy your weekend.😀
To say this was a extravagant procession is putting it mildly.
Thank you for bringing these historical event’s to reality. I would not have wanted to live in those times, however, it most certainly would have been extremely exciting to have been able to witness any of the events. If history was this interesting back in my school days, I might have gotten a B instead of an F. Thanks again and love your channel.
You're very welcome. I often find they don't teach very interesting history in schools, which puts people off of course.
Thank you so much for your weekly episodes. I look forward each week to your release. I love learning and being reacquainted with topics I learned about years ago. Your descriptions are superb and viewers truly get a personal sense of key historical events.
You are so welcome. I'm really glad you like the videos.
Love your channel! Would you consider doing a video on the effects of Henry's religious policies on Ireland? My great grandparents emigrated from County Clare & when my family and I visited, we noticed a lot of old buildings without roofs- the locals we asked said they were old churches & the roofs had been removed during Henry's reign. I'd love an in depth explanation from an Irish history buff! Thanks!
Ah yes, they'd be referring to the dissolution of the monasteries. I've used footage of a couple of such places in my videos. Henry's religious policies on Ireland would be a very broad and at times, quite nebulous topic. To be honest, I'm not sure I could do it justice in a RUclips video and I think it would take a long time to research as well as his policies affected different groups of people in different ways. If you want to learn more about this time period in Irish history though, I would recommend S.J. Conolly's book, Contested Island: Ireland 1460-1630. Many thanks for watching and commenting.
it’s so wild that her coffin remained mostly intact but henry’s was broken 😮 such respect too, to leave her body undisturbed after they found it!
Yes, I think it would suggest that her embalming was done better than Henry's (so no coffin busting explosive results!) and the coffin was made better too. It may have been less jostled around as well, so less chance of damage.
@@HistoryCalling i loooove little details like this in history, i’m going to be thinking about the possibilities all day 😂
I love them too :-)
Someone was asking about whether Jane's family was at her funeral. I ran across a reference to her brothers in a freelance history writer's blog. Evidently, Edward, Earl of Hertford, joined the funeral cortege traveling from Hampton Court to Windsor as one of the gentlemen accompanying the women following the Lady Mary. Then, "on Monday November 12, a great ceremony was staged to lay the Queen to rest with full honors in a vault beneath the Garter Chapel before a crowd that included her brothers Edward and Thomas." The writer's references were given as “The Seymours of Wolf Hall: A Tudor Family Story” by David Loades, “The Six Wives of Henry VIII” by Alison Weir, “Henry VIII: The King and His Court” by Alison Weir.
Wonderful episode. Henry may have loved Jane Seymour (as much as he was capable of loving anyone other than himself) but I feel that the elaborate funeral was mostly done for show. Who knows how long she would have lasted if she didn't die after giving birth to Edward.
Thank you so much. I wonder the same myself. I doubt he would have abandoned the mother of his son, but I'm sure there would have been plenty of affairs. That was after all, his modus operandi.
If she hadn't given him a son she'd have been on the scaffold within two or three years.
@@elizabethwoolnough4358 Absolutely. He might have even found a way to get rid of her even after she gave him the son he wanted.
@@JerryD121657 Oh, Henry could _always_ find a way. He changed the law so that he could a) execute Katherine Howard for not being a virgin when he married her, & b) execute Jane Boleyn even tho she was insane, so I agree: son or no son, Jane was no safer than anyone else from Henry's selfish wrath :( He just couldn't do anything that'd affect Edward's position as the legitimate heir, like annulling their marriage.
As he mother of a male heir, I can only imagine that her position was secure. Henry could not afford to have any questions raised re the legitimacy of his son. Jane was safe...probably not HAPPY, but certainly safe.
Loved the phrase ‘died on the job’. One would laugh if it was t so sad and true 👵👵👵🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
I know. Poor Jane (though considering how she got the job, my sympathy for her is always a bit muted).
Agree. I’ve never thought she was quite the meek and mild person she has been made out to be. 🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
I think that the pomp was a combination of genuine grief and pageantry. I believe Henry loved her as much as he was capable. It was such a short relationship, he was probably still in lust. He also grieved the loss of the woman who gave him a son and in his mind, would have given him another. I question whether or not he was capable of genuine love of any individual
Yes, I've long wondered how much he truly loved anyone, given how he treated those he claimed to love.
Four years ago I visited Windsor castle and St George’s Chapel. It is a beautiful place. ❤️😊 I got to see the stone slab with Jane and Henry’s names on it. Yes you aren’t allowed to take photos inside the chapel or castle. I really enjoyed my day there x I would highly recommend a visit. 😊👍
It is gorgeous. I was there myself a number of years ago too. It's a pity about the photography ban. I remember wandering into a room and seeing the portrait of Elizabeth I aged 13 in the red dress (I'd forgotten it was kept there) and REALLY wanting to take a pic.
@@HistoryCalling it is a lovely place. The portraits are beautiful, they were my favourite part ❤️ we got to see King Henry the Eight’s armour aswell there 😱 he really was huge 😮😊
Great history channel, both informative and interesting. I look forward to your videos each week! Thanks for providing such great content!
A new video on my birthday 🎉🎉 thank you
You're very welcome. Sorry it was such a depressing topic though, but happy birthday anyway :-)
Happy birthday 🎈🎉
Thank you so very much for including the names of the artists who portrayed the people in your video.
No problem 😊
It took me a bit to figure out what "accrased" meant, the reason why Mary couldn't continued at chief mourner. It seems to mean "acrazed" or very upset, in this case, in terrible grief. This is the first time I've read this and I think it speaks volumes about how much Mary had come to love Jane.
Yes, I knew that Mary was very upset, but that word doesn't really exist in English anymore (in either spelling), so it was one of those ones that was difficult to give a definite 'translation' of. I agree Mary was very fond of Jane and it must have been a heavy blow to lose her and less than 2 years after she lost her mother Catherine too.
@@HistoryCalling It's mentioned in the state papers a few times and I had to extrapolate its meaning from the context (mostly aimed at women who are, in the male writer's estimation, being hysterical). I'm glad to see that Mary was fully recovered enough the following day to take up her post as chief mourner again.
I found this particular detail and the descriptive word accrased an interesting note and observation about dear lady Mary. Being of Irish Catholic ancestry myself, I recall several wakes and funerals as a young child where older Aunts were “keening” over the coffin of the newly departed. This activity is sort of a hybrid crying, shrieking, praying/chanting, and singing the purpose being to “protect” the soul of the departed. Any somewhat rational person could look upon this grief display and righteously describe it as accrased, though I’m quite sure Lady Mary did no such thing, but even a public display of deep grief might be described as such as other commenters point out as a gentle diss from male reporter / observers to women mourners. I also agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that Jane’s services were Catholic services regardless of his whole “I am the head of the Church of England ballyhoo”. Since as a Catholic it is extremely unlikely Mary would agree to such a public prominent role in religious services which her beliefs labeled the separated brethren. That is not to say she most certainly wouldn’t have privately grieved and had Catholic masses said in behest of her step-mother. Once again EXCELLENT episode.
Jane just didn’t live long enough for Henry VIII to get tired of her and get rid of her for someone younger and more exciting to him. He was what we now call a narcissist.
Yes, I think he might have been, though I admit it's hard and tricky to diagnose anything at this remove.
Interesting history video on queen Jane Seymour s funeral. I enjoyed the history lessons you gave. Hope to see more of your history facts. 😀
Thanks Michelle. Glad you enjoyed it 😀
Was Jane ever publicly crowned Queen? Was that even necessary? May I also ask about the length of time between death and burial? Was that a custom for royalty only? And finally ( I know you are glad!) where was her family? Thank you so much for your videos, you always send me off on various journeys with each one.
The short answers to the first two questions are no and no. I think plague may have delayed plans for her coronation and then they just never got around to it. I think that much of a delay between death and burial was for the rich only. The poor wouldn't have had the space to keep dead bodies hanging around that long and possibly weren't able to have them professionally embalmed either. I'm afraid I don't know off the top of my head where all her family were.
No she never was as there was plgue during that time
Amazing thank you. X
You’re welcome 😊
Just what I needed to relax 👍🏻
Hope you enjoy it :-)
As Henry was obsessed with a legitimate heir, I would guess that the elaborate funeral was to secure Jane's position and thereby her son's position in history. I believe Henry loved his first wife and no one else. I believe he fell out of love with Catherine of Aragon and from that point on, he became infatuated with specific women, but never loved them.
I wonder sometimes about how much he really loved CoA. He treated her so terribly in the end and if not for her Spanish family, I dread to think what he might have done to be rid of her.
I think Jane’s funeral was predominantly a matter of form. She was a Queen of England. It would have been very strange if all the usual formalities had not taken place. Also, neither Catherine of Aragon or Anne Boleyn got the funerals they otherwise would have had as Queen because of their circumstances, Catherine because she was buried as Dowager Princess of Wales rather than as the Queen she was, and Anne Boleyn because she was buried as a convicted traitor. I think Henry would have been quite keen on giving Jane the full funeral rites, in a sense to mark her out as his true Queen and wife. I think it’s very hard to gauge how Henry really felt about Jane and how real his grief was when she died. I think he romanticised her because she’d given him the legitimate son he was so desperate for. I think the very fact that she died also allowed him to project her as his great love, and it’s not as if anyone would have been about to contradict him on that. I suppose it could be argued that part of his aversion to Anne of Cleves could have stemmed from him still grieving for Jane and not really being ready to marry anyone else, but I’m not convinced. I think if Jane had lived it wouldn’t have taken Henry very long to get bored with her and take a mistress. It wouldn’t even surprise me that much if he had a mistress while Jane was pregnant with Edward, though I have no proof of that. I think it really comes down to what was more important to Henry, the loss of Jane, his wife, or the birth of Edward, his son and heir. Ultimately I think Edward’s birth was far more important to Henry because it secured the succession, and the loss of Jane was a price worth paying for that.
I agree with everything you said. :-) I might do a video at some point on Catherine of Aragon's funeral. Now that I have one on Jane's, it would be interesting to compare the funeral Catherine ought to have had with what she actually got.
I know he had at least one when she was in confinement. Her name was Anne Beset.
Much of the pagentry reminds me of the peripatetic journeys of HMTQ Elizabeth II’s coffin to lie in state in Scotland, N Ireland, Wales and England. These honors seemed to be Jane Seymour’s right as the mother of the Heir apparent. Poor Catherine of Aragon was exiled and Anne Boleyn was executed and disgraced. Perhaps Henry VIII was pleased to honor what he considered a legitimate wife, even though it was his own decree. Perhaps it was a veiled statement to the Vatican, who refused to legitimize his marriage by granting an annulment to his marriage to C of Aragon.
Excellent post and great research!
Thank you :-)
i’m so glad you popped up, i was scrolling looking for something to watch 😂😂😂
Enjoy :-)
always!!
Love your videos.
Thank you :-)
Enjoyed the video, imagine living in this time period, how different our lives would be. Also, could you consider in the future covering the English civil war?
The English Civil Wars are a pretty sprawling topic, but I would certainly look at aspects of them, like bits of the life of Charles I for instance.
Fascinating details, thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it :-)
Congratulations on the success of the channel. Over 17 thousand subscribers in a very short amount of time
Thank you very much. Yes, it is doing well at the moment. We'll see how it goes though. The internet can be a fickle place!
Ilove all your video's
In 2019 I managed to attend an Eventide service at St. George's Chapel. I was stunned to see Jane Seymour's grave right in the middle of the processional aisle. A rectangle at floor level, which everyone walked on.
Love your videos. TY!
Thank you too :-)
If anybody is interested in reading up on Jane Seymour there is a series of book titled ‘Wolf Hall’ by Hillary Mantel. Wolf Hall was Jane’s home along with her brothers, Tom and Ned who rose to power while Jane was alive and married to Henry.
My dear... again, spot on. Not a stone unturned. Wonderfully researched and most eloquently spoken. Best Regards, your Favorite Yank.
Thanks Manny 😀
@@HistoryCalling Yer still the Best!
Sorry to be late with my viewing and commenting; it's baseball playoff time and I'm showing my Yank colors by checking them out. Another wonderfully detailed video; thanks so much. Question: do you have a favorite among the book recommendations listed? I'll use your links. Be well and enjoy your weekend. 🙏
No problem. I hope your team won. For a book on the 6 wives, my favourite is Starkey, though Fraser is good too. Thanks for using one of the links :-)
Another incredibly well researched video with very well reasoned opinions. I agree that it was a bit of both, and immense appreciation for her giving him his son, and perhaps even a bit of lingering grief over the loss of his own mother? But perhaps I'm just reaching there. Also being left alone when he'd consistently had the attentions of either wife, prospective wife, or mistress for years. But I do think he had a special appreciation for Jane, if nothing else.
Edit: Typo fixed from 'their' to 'there'
Thank you. Yes, it was a long time since he'd been without a woman. In fact this would be the first time he didn't have a wife for more than a matter of days since he married Catherine back in 1509.
How can we switch off subtitles on mobile? I can’t find the button. I absolutely despise them and have to watch with the screen half covered 😣
Tip the video then press the CC box top right corner
Great lesson 🌹
Thank you! 😃
What a good narrative
I would love to know the details of how funerals happened back then.
Could you tell me when the photo was taken at the three minute mark ?,the green streak is in the shape of a arm sleeve .
Thank you, another interesting and well presented video. It may have been a bit of both, though whether Henry was capable of loving anyone is questionable. Jane had given him Edward, one wonders what would have happened if it was another girl.
Thank you. Yes, I don't fancy Jane's chances if she'd produced a girl and not immediately become pregnant again with a boy.
Tahank you.
Great video, just wish you were louder .
We really enjoy your videos, and my American wife loves your NI brogue. :)
Thank you and I'm glad she likes my accent :-)
Jane died the same way as Henry's mother which hit him hard as he was very close to her.
He was at a stage where with his heir accomplished, he wanted to settle into familyhood,
& show himself a happy, generous, caring king. All those dreams were shattered.
The gowns of this era are just amazing. Just love them.
I think he only did it because she was the one who gave him the son & heir he needed, plus the fact that she died before he could find a reason to dispose of her like he did the others.
Given how fast Henry and Jane married, I seriously doubt he ever loved her. No long courtship as with Anne. Do we have any romantic letters between Henry and Jane? I think the funeral pomp and circumstances was most likely out of respect for her good deed of giving birth to Edward. Awesome topic for a video so professionally produced, as usually. Love the little snide remarks ha ha. Thank you!!!!
Thank you. There is just one letter that I can think of between Henry and Jane in which he told her to pay no heed to a ballad circulating about them (this was before their marriage). If you see my video on whether Jane stole Henry from Anne I think I mentioned it there.
So much for Jane's brothers trying to claim, during Edward VI's reign, that she was actually a Protestant.
Yeah, she really wasn't. Anne Boleyn and Catherine Parr would have been the closest thing to what we would now call Protestant.
She was a devout Catholic and I wish her son had been influenced by her
But seriously, Edward and Thomas were the absolute worst.
As usual another interesting video. I anticipate and enjoy all. I do not think King Henry viii could really love anyone but I think he had respect and perhaps a bit of sentimental feeling for Jane since she gave him a son and died before she could disappoint him. Let’s face it we are all imperfect and eventually she may have done something that irritated him. Of course we know what that could lead to! Thanks for another enjoyable Friday night! 😊
You're welcome. Glad you liked it. Yes, I think there was a sentimental attachment there that probably wouldn't have appeared if she hadn't have died giving him Edward. No doubt, he would have cheated on her if she'd lived, as he always did (when able).
Yes. She bore a son and conveniently died, allowing him to be soppy about his sainted wife.
@@elizabethmcglothlin5406 Well, Henry wouldn’t have annulled the marriage, because of Edward. But, Jane didn’t have the protection of a outside powerful family like Catherine of Aragon and Anne of Cleves.
So, we don’t really know what would have happened. But,I think that she would have had some protection due to having given Henry a son that outlived him.
These Tudor lists are so very detailed; I get a bit zoned out.
I think Henry loved Jane about as much as he was capable of loving any wife or mistress. Which wasn't all that much. I wonder if he confused the settled sort of love for no longer in love or if he just never got past temporary passion. Anyway, I think the funeral was a mix, but a mix that leaned toward Henry's emotions a bit rather than being an even split between emotion and form.
Yes, I'm not sure how much he really loved anyone either. His longest relationship was obviously with Catherine of Aragon, but given how easily he threw her away, it's hard to say that he truly loved her.
I think Henry was capable of falling in love but not staying in love. He fell in love with Katherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour, Kathryn Howard, and possibly Bessie Blount, but the shine always wore off.
It wore off of Katherine when she started getting old, but he would have kept her as queen regardless if she’d had a living son. It wore off of Anne pretty quickly following her miscarriage and Kathryn when he adultery was exposed.
Jane died while the shine was still on, as it were. If she hadn’t died, it would have worn off eventually. Though as she was the mother of his heir, he would have kept her as his queen but largely ignored her in favour of more interesting mistresses. As it was, Henry still loved her at the time of her death and the fact she’d produced a son pretty much put her in sainthood territory in his eyes so of course she got a lavish funeral.
I think you right. He would have kept her as his venerated and respected wife, but entertained himself elsewhere.
I wonder why Jane wasn’t given a large tomb like other royalty. Or Henry either. Was his coffin ever repaired once the vault was closed the last time or is it still broken like in the photo. It’s ironic how underwhelming his final resting place is compared to the extravagant way he lived…
In 1998 I visited Windosr Castle and their graves in the chapel. It was surreal to stand next to Henry VIII.
"Accrase" is an archaic/provincial synonym of "to crush" or "to destroy." It probably, although somewhat melodramatically, meant that Mary was on the outs with Henry.
I visited Hampton court palace in July of 2014 absolutely love it.I agreed with other people that Henry loved himself and NO 1 else, all he wanted was many sons he did have a son ,but still not happy.
It's been a long time since I was there, but I loved HCP too. I love that the front looks Tudor gothic and the back is Georgian classical.
Accrased could come from the Scottish 'acrasit or accrasyt' meaning exhausted, which would fit well within this description of the funeral party
I saw the thumbnail and thought they meant Jane Seymour from Dr Quinn Medicine Woman. LOL
It's ok. Quite a few people have said the same, but she's alive and well to the best of my knowledge. :-)
@@HistoryCalling Thanks! Hey great video here none the less. I found it very informative. Great work.
I am fascinated to know what the blur is around 3:16 in the picture of the entrance to the Chapel Royal. Could it be a photo of some sort of spirit haunting the place? Hmmmmmm.
The reason why Jane Seymour was so "loved" by Henry VIII was, because she gave him the baby son he wanted for so long and also the fact she died so soon, made her almost divine.
But what if she would survive the childbirth, would she be loved that much too or did he took mistresses, like he always had?
I doubt she had food poisoning. In those days they didn't know about bacteria and washing hands. The midwife handled Jane without washing her hands and introduced bacteria to her cervix, and this would have been added to if Jane had internal rips and tears, making it more accessible for the bacteria to enter the uterus. And because they didn't know these things back then, some of her ladies blamed "Her fantasies of food" which they considered unsuitable for a new mother.
I don't think it was food poisoning either. Most of the time the most obvious answer is the correct one and I certainly think that's the case with Jane. I'm with post-delivery complications (her placenta doesn't appear to have completely detached) and infection too.
Peritonitis , many woman died from this. I was born in 1954 and my mother who delivered at a modern hospital was infected while giving birth. She couldn't come home for 2 weeks or I . Penicillin was in use and my mother was saved.
@@HistoryCalling Peritonitis was probably the cause . It happened in modern times . My mother was infected in 54 when I was born , at a hospital. She remained in hospital for 2 weeks and treated with penicillin .
Jane has to be my favourite wife!
Another wonderful video! Since Jane was the only one to give him a surviving, legitimate son and given the ignorance at the time of which parent determines the sex of the baby, I can see his grief partially being related to him feeling he may never have any other sons without her. Just kind of an off-the-wall thought. I agree that Henry probably never really loved anyone but himself. I am curious as I am unfamiliar - was it common to separate the internal organs from the rest of corpse and bury them elsewhere during this era?
Thank you. Regarding the organs being removed - this didn't have to be done, but yes, it was fairly common. They had to be taken out for embalming and then if they weren't buried, they'd rot (I mean they'd rot anyway, but at least if they were buried you'd hopefully be spared the stink). Burying them as close as possible was just a matter of convenience I would think, but again, I'm sure they didn't have to be buried near where the person died.
Yes, this was very common. The most celebrated churches containing the hearts and viscera are the Ducal Chapel in St. Stephen's Cathedral and the Loreto Chapel in the Augustinian Church, both in Vienna. What is remarkable are the urns themselves. Many are ornate like Faberge eggs, while others are quite plain, depending upon the instruction given by the dying monarch.
@@cherylhayden7363 Kind of like in ancient Egypt. I didn't realize that practice was used elsewhere, at other times. Thank you for the information!
@@HistoryCalling Thank you for the information! I had no idea!! I knew it was common in ancient Egypt - I didn't know it was done elsewhere in different eras. It certainly makes sense. I strive to learn at least one new thing every day - this was today's! 😃
@@HistoryCalling I know it was quite common during the Middle Ages, where you could have someone's heart buried in one place, their entrails in another, and the actual body somewhere else again. I think it depended on the locations that had the most meaning to the person in life.
The photo at 3 minutes,14 seconds from the top of the chapel royal sign all the way to the ground is an ghost form of the 1530' style of dress.
I don’t think Henry had the capacity to truly love anyone but himself. His attitude towards Jane is a result of her having birthed a son and died before he could tire of her. He threatened her several times, like when she tried to advise him and he reminded her of what happened to Anne. And though not confirmed, Jane’s banning of French fashions possibly came as a result of one of Henry’s scare tactics.
You can see modern photos of the chapel (and you can spot the marble slab) from Harry & Meghan’s wedding! Lovely video, thank you for your hard work. 💕
Yes, I would love to have used one of those. Pesky copyright though. It didn't seem worth the risk of being told to take the video down or edit out part of it when I'd been able to find an old photo to use. Glad you liked the video. Thanks for watching and commenting. :-)
@@HistoryCalling oh, that makes sense! I imagine you put a ton of work into these videos, so getting a copyright strike would be so frustrating.
The funeral of Jane Seymour was brilliantly done on the Tudors.
I remember crying when they had her laid out with a crown on her stomach and Henry crying over her. Not accurate admittedly, but effective.
Michael Hirst always comes up with a great way of remembering events in The Tudors and Vikings. They weren't always accurate but definitely effective.
Yes, I'm thinking of doing a video on how (in)accurate The Tudors was. It's neither as good nor as bad as I think some people believe. A lot of the details were correct for instance, even in cases where no one who wasn't an historian would know.
I started watching it on Showtime right when it came out. I didn't do allot of research into Henry before that but I liked the way they did it. His sister that was married to Brandon was a character I wish they would've kept on a little longer.
The Howling Wilderness soundtrack was hauntingly beautiful and perfect for those scenes.
I wonder what it actually looked like and how elaborate it was. Henry gave her a huge funeral because he got what he needed but I do believe he was fond of her.
I wouldn't be surprised if A] Henry consistently got really, really drunk in the days after Jane's death, and B] during that time, his lowered inhibitions caused him to think about all he'd done to get where he was in that moment. He must've wondered, however briefly, if this was some kind of Divine Payback for using his court system to murder Anne Boleyn and the men accused with her. (10/10/2021)
I certainly hope he wondered about it. Serves him right if he had an attack of conscience and remorse.
i don't believe that henry truly loved anyone except himself.
“Then began Lauds””…..surely this is the singing of the office, rather than “music”?
Thought you were talking about the actress.
I wonder what were the crowds, if any, gathering to watch the processions? I suppose it was only possible with bells and word of mouth to let people know but one of my questions is, how much of this was done as spectacle (royal majesty and all that) and how much was internal ritual? It is truly fascinating.
Oh I definitely think there was some spectacle involved, to show off to the people how powerful and wealthy the royals were. Funnily enough, in later centuries, royal funerals actually became a lot more low key. They were held at night and only had short processions from the Prince's Chamber in Westminster (where the lying in state would occur for a day or two), to Westminster Abbey.
Why does the picture of the executioner at 10:36, looks like they have no head?
I thought Henry arranged a fancy tomb for Jane with place for him to lie beside her.
I don't remember where, though.
Fascinating, as per usual. My thoughts are echoed below in the comments. I am an enthusiastic family historian, genealogist. Especially interesting is that I have a 8x Great-grandfather with the surname Cleave/Cleve birth dated 1672 (I haven't been able to take my tree back further). My DNA ethnicity shows a small percentage of German Heritage - so, there is a small possibility that Ann of Cleves was/is in some way my ancestor. I just love history and ancestry, it's fascinating..
Thank you. I love genealogy too. That's fascinating about a possible link to Cleves. I hope you're related to her somehow too. It'd be a great story to tell at dinner parties :-)
I wonder if Moses Cleaveland (he who founded the city in Ohio) was a relative, too.
Taken her entrails out and putting them in a container and have them displayed and honored sounds a little like Egyptian kind of thing. Also wrapping her body too in fine linen about 2 or 3 times around her. Was england aware of the burial practices of royal mummies in Egypt at that time? Seems its just a luck coincidence, and they were not aware of it until later but, when we're the crusades if they happened before this time that might had something to do it
Maybe King Henry did indeed love her, she was the only wife that gave him what he wanted which was a son & heir to the throne. I also wondered why they too out her entrails? Just something they did for corpses? Thank you for this interesting video ❤️
Her entrails were removed as part of the embalming process, to slow down decomposition. Thanks for watching and commenting :-)
@@HistoryCalling Thank you for the information. I live in the US & have found your videos so interesting.
This is why eventually the line of succession was changed in 2012 .. never again .. only if our American systems of government learn .. the secret to life is .. learning and evolving .
I think Henry was more upset about losing someone who was shown to be the only one capable of giving him what he wanted, a legitimate heir. She didn't live long enough to fail him in this regard as she obviously wasn't able to have a second pregnancy to either fail or produce a girl. As such, hypothetically she could have produced many more sons that he would never have. He mourned her womb, not her as his wife.
What was the purpose of the entrails being separated from the body and interred?
It was part of the embalming procedure, to slow down decomposition. They were interred I think, just because there was nothing else to do with them at that point. It also meant that multiple places could say they had the honour to be the burial spot of a royal.
I wonder if Henry remembered the fate of his mother, Elizabeth of York, who suffered a similar fate in 1503. How ironic, that after another 3 wives, Henry's only legitimate male heir, Edward VI, was to die at 15.
Henry loved nobody but his self .
I suspect you're right.
This may sound ridiculous, but listening to older videos, I just realized I don’t really know what it means/meant to be allowed at court. My idea of being “at court” is somehow meshed with old Blackadder episodes 😂. Did the members of the court sit in a big room and eat all day? How did court change over years? We’re jesters real?
I’ve just realized I really don’t know!
Being at court essentially means being wherever the monarch is at any given time (usually a grand palace). They could and did eat together sometimes, though equally the most prominent members will have had their own rooms and could eat there sometimes too. Others will have had their own houses in the vicinity of court (which was usually in London) and will have mostly eaten and slept there. Yes, jesters were real. You can see Will Somers, Henry VIII's jester/court fool in some paintings of Henry and his family. As for how court changed over the years, I guess this depends on how many years you're talking about. There wouldn't have ever been any seismic shifts that I can think of. Just a slow move towards the modern era, where far fewer people are around the monarch on a day to day basis and far fewer are live-in servants.
Look at his gorgeous clothing, king Henry.
I almost died after going back to the hospital 6 days after giving birth to my 4 child. I went back to the hospital with a 104-degree fever (and rising!) and was hospitalized for another week as my body went septic. Had it been the Tudor era, I would be dead! As it was my OB cut me off and told me I was done!
Jane did NOT have food poisoning! It was "Child bed fever!" She went septic.
@@sassenspeyghel4155Me too!