Is it possible to match the IRSV performance for less money?
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- Опубликовано: 1 сен 2017
- The Infinity IRSV in PS Audio's Music Room One is perhaps the finest loudspeaker system in the world. Can its performance be matched with less expensive speakers and electronics? Have your own question you'd like to have Paul answer? Go to www.psaudio.com/ask-paul/
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Hi Paul, This was the first of your "Ask Paul" videos that I've seen. Thank you. Your obvious great knowledge, coupled with your total candor, your charisma, and your great personal charm made it thoroughly enjoyable as well as a great learning experience. Keep 'em coming!
Fantastic videos Paul. I was every video that comes up 50% because I want to learn about audio, but 50% because I enjoy your conversations. Thanks for the time.
Love the Q&A series. Thx
Paul is the Mr. Rogers of the audio world.
I like the way you say that...can you say "helpful"? Sure, I knew you could...
@@tdw57 glad he's left out the sweater/shoe changing
Really enjoyed this question and answer from this series. Great Question and answer obviously :)
very nice, Paul, answered a lot of my questions! Looking forward to see those PS speakers!
hope you can afford them
I've heard the IRS system and it was breath taking ,I had the same heart stopping experience when I 1st heard Roger Russell's McIntosh XR-290 line arrays ,I loved them so much that I bought the pair Roger made for himself from his home ,the highs aren't as good as the IRS but the clarity & soundstage make up for the guessed 3db drop In high end clarity ,the XRT-22s Roger designed for McIntosh are the closest " affordable " full range speaker on the used market to the IRS ,from my ears the XR-290s and XRT-22s Roger made before leaving McIntosh are better than the new 120 driver line array offerings by McIntosh ,having Rogers hand built 1st version 380 pound per cabinet speaker system in my home gives me the pride whoever ends up with his personal speakers ,I sure hope it's an audioohile and not a dealer .
Paul I know what you are talking about with the Corvette. I owned an early 70's Monaro (back in the early 80's) A good example sells for around $80k - $100k these days, but even though there was a time I could afford to buy one again and relive those glory days, I just couldn't bring myself to part with that kind of cash into a car that handled like a waterbed. I absolutely love the look of the car, but the mechanicals are so dated it wouldn't be a pleasure to own. Sometimes we just need to be content with the memories we had.
Good point Dodgy!
Grew up with my grandpa's ESS AMT3's with HEIL's and WOW sent me on my quest for perfection at an early age.
Hey Paul Ryan again i watched the video of you at a show and you had a pair of infinity betas you had said you had found them brand new in a warehouse do you still have those ? What a sound even over a cell phone mono speaker !
Also where can i buy your book id love to read more about the work you and Arne did with Api i have some friends that use to work there but im dying to know about the work you guys did with them. As always Paul great videos great start to my morning coffee and a Ps audio video
You now have 1 more sub . Thankyou from the uk . I own overture 3s the last of the real infinitys
agree Paul.. my old '69 SS-396 Chevelle felt like a truck from Day One! torque YES.. fun NO a 200sx Datsun was waay more satisfying for me.
Hi Paul, I got my grubby hands on a set of Infinity Modulus Speakers and Subwoofer from 1990. I would like your opinion on this system? I have yet to set it up but very much looking forward to listening to them.
Hi Paul, You mentioned REL subwoofer, which is a British brand product. What REL models do you recommend?You also mentioned Avalon speakers and described them as terrific but at the same time you said they could not reveal enough the differences in CD contents and not that high resolution. Did I understand correctly?
Paul have you heard the RAAL range of ribbon tweeters? IMO the are far superior sounding to the AMT's. To my ears the AMT's were harsh in comparison.
Great answer and common sense - more drivers allow the speaker to play louder, or with less distortion at the same volume.
more drivers have their own problems on the other hand!
@@Harald_Reindl - just to confirm, more drivers have a problem. The problem is that the speaker is not appropriate as a desktop (sometimes called nearfield) speaker..
@@donaldlee6760 phase and spl with 100% perfection also becomes a challenge with more and more drivers
@@Harald_Reindl - just to confirm. More drivers that cover the same frequency range are difficult to be stay in-phase (alternately called synchronized) because they are physically located next to each other (typically stacked vertically), and using multiple drivers so a speaker can play louder is a flawed solution. The better solution is to use a single larger driver instead of multiple drivers that have the same surface area? The reason is that the crossover for multi-driver speakers , where the multiple drivers cover a specific frequency band instead of a single driver covering that same frequency band, are either more expensive or more difficult to design? I'm only asking because I assumed the ideal solution to have a speaker play louder is to simply add more drivers and the only downside is the speaker will cost more money because of the additional driver(s) and larger cabinet, however the crossover design and speaker performance will be identical, expect for the specific use case of nearfield/desktop listening
@@donaldlee6760 exactly - easy to try with let's say 4 identical bookshelf speakers versus two on a amplifier with A+B - typically you have more issues in details than with only two
The speaker, (irs) can they be used in a movie room
suggestions??
Hi, Paul, I live in the land down under, having herd a pair of IRSV many years ago my mouth just drooled at how they sounded and filled the air with ambience but like 99% of people their price was a 10-year wage, some years later I had the privilege of selling Mirage M1's. for a time they were what the industry call studio reference loudspeakers. Never having the chance to compare either how close do you think the M1's came to matching the sound of the IRSV, M1's being bi-polar loudspeakers.
There is NO 'Down Under' bc EARTH IS FLAT.
LOL!!! For the last 9 months I've been rebuilding a 89 Trans-AM GTA with modern components and including TWO 6-ch McIntosh amps (JLAudio DSP) LOL... Projected cost: a few times more then what the car cost new. Original parts kept: Fuel tank, T-Tops, and Most of the body. After all of this time/effort it will still be a TURD! but it will make me happy :) Lord what my wife has to think sometimes
1/36 th as much. 24+12.... tomato, tomatoe... great videos enjoying them very much!
VMPS Super tower III was on par for 1/4 the cost. Neodymium (raven) ribbons and TC sounds sub (tower) drivers.
Big fan of TC Sounds drivers have several, but not so fussed on the Raven ribbons. Heard them in some Nola Baby Grands and thought they were quite ordinary.
Have you heard the IRS ? I've heard everything from VMPS and nothing they made comes close to the pin point imaging of the IRS,not even my 1 of a kind McIntosh line arrays that are worth $50 to $60k .
@@michaelledford4751 Yes I heard both. The last VMPS did everything the IRS could do with ease. I used to live 45 miles from VMPS and got to hear everything. CTC blowtorch> anything macintosh has. John Curl is a better designer. I hate mac speakers. Very pedestrian and overpriced.
That intro was deep
I heard a set of Inifinity IRS Vs (its not really a pair, is it) in the early 90s, at an audio show in a hotel in Hong Kong. They were impressive, but felt more like a technology demonstrator than a practical product. Even if they had been cheap they would only have sold in small numbers, because they are so unrealistically big for most people.
I have heard the IRS's twice and while they are a great speaker and do everything well there is one problem that bothered me. The image is very good but it tends to wander up and down the drivers. I have a pair of Acoustat electrostatics which to my ears do everything well and they have a rock solid image.They can also be bought used for far less money.
I also have the Acoustat Monitor 4's, first with the direct drive tube amps, then upgraded to MK121 highly modified interfaces (done by one of the engineers at Acoustat). Also was an Acoustat dealer for 5 years and still love all of them. Have two pairs. Acoustat Monitor 4's had the oak top and bottom plates, and has the stand, (not the later version which extended the speaker covers from the top to the floor). Like my design and looks of the ones I have. Also inherited a pair of later from my brother. Bi-amped with ARC D150/Conrad Evolution 2000 (kind like the new PS Audio Bascom King amps (tube front end/MOSFET outputs). with a modified Dahlquist electronic X over.
I have a friend with Monitor 4's and he said my 3 panel X's have better bass. It's been said that Acoustat's with the original servo charge amp with the right modifications is as good as you can get. I still use my X's with modified servo charge amps.I have compared my system to live unamplified classical music and it sounds the same.I use a heavily modified Dual turntable with Supex cartridge and a modified Audio Research tube preamp.
That’s because the irs v even looking at Paul’s videos .. the room they are is way to small.
I had the same issue with my kappa 9, it gets owned hands down by my magnepan tympani I
I still listen to them both it’s awesome, but I think the classic nudells get a bit to much credit in most videos.
My experience with the infinity irs is a little different.....I have heard many great loudspeakers .....but I have never heard any speaker (MB L included) come close to the gigantic , layered , three dimensional , solid imaging of the infinity irs system ....I have heard more modern speakers have more see through transparency in the treble, upper mids and bass that sounded faster .and tighter ..but I don't think that makes up for what the infinity irs system does so well
I tested/measured a pair of Adam speakers (with the AMT tweeter) a few years back; pretty sure that tweeter - despite how rich/good it sounds - produced a surprising amount of distortion and/or contributed to a poor acoustic centre and/or concerning frequency response.
Can't remember the exact details right now, but I remember it performed really poorly (worse than a tradition moving coil transducer) where we expected better.
Jim I own a number of RAAL ribbon tweeters which are as smooth as silk, and when I heard a friends AMT's they almost made me cringe, there was something about them that just made them feel harsh. The sound was ok, but something about them grated on my nerves. I wonder if what I was sensing was distortion.
@@DodgyBrothersEngineering Yes, ribbon diaphragms/tweeters can sound amazing.
The air motion transducers are unique in their own way.
But if you analyse how they actually make sound and what their advantages are (aside from some of the advantages that are similar to a ribbon driver {large effective voice coil that drives across almost the entire surface}; mostly the ATM transducer’s advantages come down to radiation resistance and efficient coupling to the air) it’s hard to see how they won’t produce non linear distortion; as they literally stretch/flex to make sound; and this motion can correlate less with the input signal than other more traditional means of reproducing high frequencies; which - if my memory serves me correctly - was why they measured less well than expected all those years ago.
I personally think ribbon drivers are one of the best ways to reproduce sound.
If done right, they often sound incredible and detailed.
It’s a shame they usually can't reproduce the entire spectrum; as that usually means there are crossover and acoustic issues with integration.
As - to compensate for their inability to reproduce the entire spectrum - they’re often then coupled with moving coil transducers that don’t always radiate sound like ribbon driver line arrays.
Which;
A) Is why you more often than not see ribbon drivers implemented (only) as tweeters; as in that guise you minimize the acoustic/other integration issues and are left with the ribbon’s advantages.
B) Means these considerations are probably why the aforementioned issues may not apply too much for your RAAL ribbon tweeter.
The RAAL ribbon tweeter (if I remember correctly) is not of overly large/long dimensions (so probably won’t radiate as a line array too much).
Plus, it’s probably intended to work with moving coil mid/low frequency transducers to ensure it works in a system that can reproduce the entire spectrum.
Years ago the Bohlender-Graebener RD75 Ribbon was a masterpiece of engineering; and I remember playing around with it in various systems as I studied engineering.
www.perrymarshall.com/articles/ultimate2way/
daveayers.com/rd_ribbons.pdf
Unlike many ribbon tweeters, it had a ~180 Hz - 18 KHz response (so, almost the entire frequency spectrum); and - like the above link - we implemented digital crossovers and active amplification; and the sound was truly remarkable.
For bass we implemented a (relatively thin/tall; so as to act like a line array that acoustically matched the BG ribbon as much as possible) tall stack of eight 8” seas drivers on each left/right side; where each stack easily went down to 22Hz faithfully.
The system not only, sounded brilliantly - but also, it measured exceptionally well.
Yielding excellent impulse, phase, acoustic centre, CSD, frequency/distortion and other responses/plots.
Unfortunately Bohlender Graebener and the BD75 ribbon driver is no longer available.
But it remains as one of the best transducer system components I have ever worked with and heard.
That said, JBL make some very, very cleverly designed moving coil transducers these days.
Their low frequency differential drive transducers are perhaps even better than any European offering; including the top line active studio monitor manufacturers out there.
Smart stuff.
@@StormCentre88 Bohlender-Graebener RD75's were something else. Just like TC Sounds, good drivers sometimes cease production, which is a great pity for those of us that like a bit of DIY. The RAAL are sized by their name so a 140-15D is 140mm tall by 15mm wide. The Lazy 9" is double the height I think, but is too much for anything but a full blown horn setup. They are just too over the top for conventional speakers. For a brief moment I considered trying to make a line array with 140-15D-AM's (Anamorphic core) but at nearly a thousand dollars a driver it would have been a serious investment. I currently have 9 RAAL ribbons in my collection (2 x 140-15D-AM dipoles, 3 x 140-15D-AM monopoles, and 4 x 70-10D-AM monopoles).
As you point out the biggest hurdle is they need to be coupled with a competent mid to make it all worth while. The radiation pattern of the RAAL's are not like you typical ribbon tweeters, as in they don't suffer from the typical ribbon beaming issues. I have heard them paired with some BG NEO10 planars which sounded alright, although my personal preference is towards a paper mid.
Turn that music up
The Infinity’s are dinosaurs and they do sound good for there time and design and I have experienced them many times but haven said that, there are many speaker systems that best it for instance MBL would be one,more speakers in a system does not make it superior to others but Macintosh also have line arrangements systems
Mbl is silly comparison, as those cost a good amount MORE than the IRS v does. A top model mbl tops half a million.
You're clueless lol
Paul: Would the IRSV benefit from subwoofers? (Keep in mind I just viewed your Subwoofer and Headroom" video).
Perhapes . Sound wave don't know or care how much money you spend. It's all electro mechanical formula matching. I on occasion do systems and for $90, +the MDF, I made a subwoofer system for a Porsche 911 Convertible that made so much thunder, it made one nauseous at max output. And you couldn't see it!
That split rear window was only available one year because you couldn't see the police behind you on the highway. That's what the GM brass said when they took it for a spin. Next!
Or you take a really good horn plus live like dynamics. but this is more for the impulsive people. I know about the differences. I love the effortlessness of good horns without the colorations. But sometimes, they a re fatiguing to listen to.
um, yeah. horns are at least fatiguing
Well three years later, still no speakers from PS Audio. Turns out not that easy. :)
Seems like more trouble than what's it's worth to move it. Sometimes....we spend more time accumulating things than just...enjoying the journey.
Reverse engineering a product is a challenge. Success depends on many factors. Could you scrounge up enough EMIMs and EMITs in good working order or repair them to duplicate the line arrays? Maybe. Could you duplicate the crossover network using an active crossover and multiple amplifiers? Definitely. Could you equal the bass capability? Not a problem. Could you make the midrange and tweeter arrays shorter? No, they must be the same size.
What if you needed to use other drivers? Here you have a problem matching FR, dispersion, and acoustic power output capability. Here you must have a sample of the original to compare to and measure or detailed performance specifications to have a fighting chance. Among the newest variants of this concept the EMIMs look to have been replaced by what looks like a B&G RD75 linear ribbon driver designed at least in part, maybe in whole by... Arnie Nudell. The EMITs have been replaced with individual 1 inch round ribbon drivers. There are many such models available. There are also new Heil air motion transformers available too. With proper selection, careful design, and correct equalization it should be possible to come very close to the original or one of its later variants.
How critical is it? To ears familiar with this speaker maybe not as much as I'd thought. Many changes occurred that Paul mentioned. At first, some of the drivers were inoperative. That was picked up by visitors. The Hypex amplifier got rave reviews from Paul until it met the Sonic Frontiers amplifier. Then Arnie repositioned the speakers. Now the BHK amplifiers were retubed. Each of these changes to the system made a noticeable difference in the sound. Same speakers though. I think the speaker wires have been changed. There have been numerous other changes to the system as well including not only hardware changes but software changes. So what exactly does Infinity IRS V sound like? On what day?
Sometimes memories are better than reality.
Kraco 6x9's
I not only match but exceed the effortlessness of the IRS 5’s everyday from a mere 3 way design. It’s called a Klipschorn. Horn loading is just as effective and certainly more practical than having gigantic line arrays for allowing a given driver to produce tons of sound while only tickling it with a few watts. No offense to ol Arnie but I personally never liked his approach to speaker design. I’m certainly not saying the IRS 5’s aren’t fantastic speakers but practical they are not and the designs that were more of an every man’s speaker didn’t hold a candle to any good horn loaded design I’ve ever heard. Of course that’s all subjective
Like the gal I fell for in high school, recently bumped into her in the street, she looked different somehow in my head
Let's say hypothetically.....great audio engineers build floor standing speaker of normal or larger than normal proportions with 1 tweeter , midrange and bass driver that had distortion as low as a huge multi way systems with countless drivers that could play as loud as the infinity s ....it still might never sound as relaxed and grand because the dispersion pattern is smaller and beaming more at your ears .....normal size horn systems are a real example of this...not hypothetical....but if the day ever comes when normal cone with just a few drivers can achieve as low of distortion and thr dynamic range in decibals as the large multi driver infinity s ....I don't because of the dispersion it will ever sound as grand and relaxed until sophisticated digital processing is on a level beyond anything we have now
The IRS will stop you from ever achieving that IRS feeling
Wife acceptance factor is very, very important if you boys playing with these toys
@Harry Fishnuts agree trade her in for one with better WAF. I am truly blessed in mine will let me build virtually any speakers I want.
I have never heard the PS Audio set up of the IRS bur I surely heard Harry Pearson's IRS
system a lot years ago. It would play loudly and cleanly. But it was not really very good otherwise. The first part of this (about nostalgia) would definitely apply-- except that actually I did not think it was all that good at the time. Stu Hegeman called it a "sophisticated public address system" Fair enough I thought.. If loudness is your thing then it had as Paul says an effortless quality to it. But it did not reproduce its input particularly well. Maybe Paul in his version got the bugs out.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
W.A.F. (Wife Acceptance Factor) love it... (but not really). 🤣
Just as satisfying? No problem. Chuck the unrealistic expectations and concentrate on the music.
Where is that floyd ? Crank it, cut that music up !!
The same doesn't mean equal. The first assumption is erroneous.
327 Split Window.We Would Cream our Gene's at every Viewing...Make Music that Feeling ! U-Can & Pls Dou.Yank-Zilla ? How's da Project Going ? YYZ+NOOB.
Never meet your heroes...