I have 4 sealed subwoofers. Music uses 2 subs at the front of the room. Movies in a 7.4.4 setup uses an additional 2 sealed subwoofers to the left/right of my couch. music source=Apple Music lossless.
Taking the "low sum out" of a 3-way active crossover to a subwoofer amp set for "mono in/stereo out" turns a tri-amped system into a beast. It makes watching NHRA Top Fuel drag racing an experience.
In car audio atleast having two subs gets you more sound for the money. It allows you to have stereo sound so it can fade left to right and is usually better placement in a car. For example with two subs they'll be each positioned behind the left and right seats instead of center of the car so the bass will hit your back instead of right ear only. It's possible they'll be slightly out of sync though and worsen sound quality. I haven't heard of this being a problem.
Many years ago I read an interview with one of the founders of the company Lexicon. Lexicon make high end reverb units (to give music some audio space, for those who don't know) he said that you should use two bass or sub woofers because they put out of phase components into their reverb to widen the stereo perception. They do this because there are out of phase components to real world reverbs and spaces. so the reverb from each speaker is subtly different. if you use just one sub woofer then this effect is made into mono and lost. Lexicon Reverb is used on most music recordings to support or supplant real reverbs, even when the musicians think it isn't. so it WILL make a difference. at least that's what the guys at Lexicon say.
For a single subwoofer setup,j ust make sure the crossover frequency is low enough (mine is at 80hz), take time to found the right positioning for a sub regarding your listening position. Off course you will suffer from nulls in your room, but i can live with that as long the response on my listening spot is fine
I heard the Rockport Altair speakers 10 years ago and they were amazing sounding. The Rockport Carbon Fiber Woofer and Carbon Fiber midbases on the Altairs sounded so articulate. The Altairs i heard used a Scanspeak tweeter that sounded smooth. I love the red color on the Rockport Cygnus speakers.
I have a very humble stereo system with built-in stereo subwoofers. It is so impressive. A friend of mine came to check my set up and he was impressed, specially with the bass sound. And I didn't even show him the audiphile cut of the album 'San Francisco' by Bobby Hutcherson with guest bassist Harold Land, who plays both acoustic and bass player on this 1971 album.
I know I'm years late on commenting on this video, but Paul nailed it with this one. A sub in general makes a great improvement in a sound system, but two is a monumental difference!
I read through some forums a while ago and there were some companies that recommended to setup one subwoofer on the center pre output and the other on the lfe/sub output of the a/v receiver. They also mentioned about finding the sweet spot for the subwoofer by putting the subwoofer in the listening position.
In most records the bass instruments bass guitar Bassdrum (Bass keyboards )are recorded in Mono and are almost always panned C in the mix for more high output levels. If you have a big wide room and can get two subwoofers to work whit out them cancelling out each other yes two subwoofers will sound bigger move more air and have 100% stereo paning compatibility. In a small narrow room one Mono subwoofer will probably be more easy to place in optimal position levels /phase and crossover match as bass extension to the main speakers. the main speakers play full bandwidth anyway so paning below 200hz can be heard anyway in the main speakers.One exception to the rule bass instruments always recorded in Mono and panned C-centred are Symphonic music or Jazz recorded in a hall in true Stereo with X/Y Otrf Bluimline M/S Microphone setup and such recordings the bass instruments will be panned same way as they are setup in the recording room.
even with my single Stereo Integrity IB24 inch sub (xover is 70 @ -12db per octave) its very easy to tell that the LFE is "pressurizing" that side of the room - or loading - whatever term you want to use... When a second sub was added to the opposite side of the room - the LFE energy becomes completely balanced in the room....as is the case with most Home Theaters I have installed....
Bass Player here - I love subwoofers. My question is about putting a subwoofer at every speaker. Making a 5.1 surround system to a 5.5 surround sound system. Even though we may not hear the direction of that frequency, wouldn't we want the shockwave? I play a lot of games and watch a lot of movies. I can feel the direction of the subwoofer. So if you picture yourself in the middle of the room, 5.1 surround sound system and someone in the game or movie kicked the door down behind you, the shockwave would come from the front, not the back. This throwing off the direction of the shockwave. Now if you upgrade to a 7.2 surround sound system and that same person kicks the door down on your left, you might feel the shockwave from the back and the front. However in real life the shockwave most likely come from side when that the door busts open.
subwoofers and I are good friends to, funny since we became friends all my other friends dont like me anymore, they talk behind my back saying chris's new friend subwoofer is a loudmouth , you can hear him a mile away! get it, lol!
I am a big fan of distributed bass, I run 2 12" servo subs in stereo and 3 hidden in room mono..The three mono subs are 10", 12", and 15" all set to their sweet spot via crossover and gains.. Makes for a very clean bass presence, I can turn the knob to any volume level without having to adjust the subs because they are not working hard to give me my bass.. Sounds real clean with any style of music.
Laws of physics. Directionality is determined by a source signal hitting each ear at slightly different times causing a phase and level difference between them. You can not determine the source location of a sound if the frequency wavelength is lower than the distance between your ears. Below that frequency the wave hits both ears relatively in phase. No differentiation. If you can identify the location of a subwoofer in a room sonically it is because it is producing sounds above that frequency.
Paul McGowan In Rock and Pop music all low bass is mono in the mix. But Classal and Jazz is a different story. Pressure waves can be a factor in determining where the low bass is coming from. But not with Rock and Pop. Below 80hz is omnidirectional. In 5.1 mixes it's mostly going to be in the low effect channel. Hint: Not every audio engineer uses the low effect channel and they DON'T LIKE THAT AT MASTERING. I have had (and others) the 5.1 mixes sent back with note, "Nothing in the low effect channel..." I try to tell them that's how I want it because I want stereo bass. And then I get a long, long, long lecture on acoustics and that persons with cheap systems can't have low bass in their main speakers because they can't handle them. I point out that all home systems have bass management so that no low bass is gonna get into the mains and blow them up. In fact no bass of ANY KIND will get to any of the 5 speakers of a cheap ass Home Theatre In A Box system. But no one listens..... Those $300 in a box Home Cinemas should be outlawed! Anyway, those aren't subwoofers. They are woofers. 100 - 300 hz. They handle all of the bass and them some. But in the manual of your spiffy new Home Theatre System it says - YOU CAN PUT A SUBWOOFER ANYWHERE. Not this thing you can't. At 300hz you goona know where this thing is at all times. And the THD of these cheap amps can reach as high as 5% at loud volumes. I guess it way better than a sound bar but Jesus..... You make a good point. But with todays modern music it's pointless. Stereo music before 1973 is where you get bass and kicks mixed all over. And of course stereo miked music like: Folk, Jazz and Classical. But even that is ending. Some mastering engineers have started to mono the bass below 80hz. Even in classical. Sad, but true.
@John Morris "And the THD of these cheap amps can reach as high as 5% at loud volumes." ANY amp can reach a THD of more than that, IF you pushed them beyond their limit. The thing tough, is that a high power, high quality, amp, will have a limit high enough for you not need to push them byond that.
where u position the woofer matters too. stand at the back wall and listen. then stand in front of it. i noticed this years ago when taking speakers apart
I prefer a single subwoofer cabinet crossed over around 50-60 Hz with a 24 dB slope. Then a 3+ way stereo setup in addition. One 60-100 Hz, a midrange, and a tweeter. It allows for a better sound with smaller less expensive drivers.
I don't need speakers to reproduce the lowest octave (25-50 Hz), but these frequencies add realism at a substantial purchase price. I have heard single and double subwoofer systems, and I'd have to agree with Paul: two subwoofers are much easier to blend with the satellite speakers because of midrange directionality (there is no brickwall crossover for either speaker).
Wavelength is inversely proportional to the frequency so low frequency sound implies a high wavelength. Wavelength = (speed of sound)/frequency. A 100 Hz low frequency sound would have a wavelength of 340/100 meters.That is 3.4 m. This wavelength is comparable to the size of a bedroom. A 20 Hz sound has a wavelength of 17 meters. This is the reason our ears cannot perceive the source and location of low frequencies. Human hearing is also most sensitive to pick up frequencies in the 2 kHz to 4 kHz range. This range also happens to be where the average human speech is located. Also leaves rustling and twigs cracking are also within this range. Humans have developed acute hearing in this range so as to detect predators and danger (obviously this was in the distant past and is also present in our human primates) (Note: A sound frequency of 3000 Hz equates to a wavelength of about 11 cm which comparable to the distance between the left and right ear. Humans can easily detect sound source and the stereo audio effect at these frequencies/wavelengths and higher.)
@j s we share an ancestry with the highest primates. Thats why our genetic code is about 98.5% identical to that of the higher primates such as the gorilla, chimp and orangutan. You shouldnt feel ashamed of your cousins.
@j s Incorrect. It depends on what genetic regions and markers you are comparing. Overall there is about an 85% similarity between mouse and human genomes. Some genes may be 99% similar, some are 50%. You can also find specific genes in bananas or bacteria that overlap with human genetic characteristics. Why would you pluck out a genetic feature that has a 99% similarity with human genetic information and make a broad statement like the one you made in your post? It's clear to me that you need to withdraw or edit your previous post and submit a formal apologise my friend.
@j s Evolution doesnt say we come from monkeys. It's best that you dont comment on things and scientific facts that you clearly heavent read up on or dont possess a comprehension on. How old is the earth?
@@smanzoli I have to disappoint you but you are not correct: it implies to a long wave and a high wavelength! But many make this mistake to be honest 😄
No, because low frequencies are essentially omnidirectional. One subwoofer is plenty. An exception might be in a movie sound system, because objects on screen move around.
Hi there, I love music and while trying to do some research to facilitate fitting my own car hi fi I came across your channel. Thank you for simplifying a very deep subject. I could listen to you all day. Best regards Douglas.
I finally bit the bullet and got two subwoofers Polk DSW PRO 550 for my Magnepan MG12s ( 2 pairs ). Basically extending the range of the front pair. You are so right about using Speaker level connections. Once I moved my system to my finished basement, much bigger room, I wanted to see how much of a difference they could make since I now have the space. Oh it's a noticable difference with music. I have yet to watch movies with the subs but will soon.
WOW, SOUND SYSTEM TALK ALWAYS REMINDS ME OF THE GOOD ‘OL DAYS BACK IN THE 90’s WHEN I HAD TWO (SEALED)12’s IN THE TRUNK OF MY 87 T-BIRD !!! I USED TO SPEND HOURS OVER MANY WEEKS, and MONTHS MAKING SMALL TWEEKS TO THE VARIOUS ADJUSTMENTS... ...I REMEMBER FINDING THAT WITH STEREO SUBS IT WAS MUCH EASIER TO ACHIEVE A CONSISTENT LEVEL OF BASS ACROSS DIFFERENT TRACKS OF MUSIC (WITH VARYING QUALITIES OF SOUND ENGINEERING) ALLOWING ME TO FIND JUST ONE FLAT SOUND SETTING THAT WAS AWESOME FOR EVERYTHING WITHOUT HAVING TO CONSTANTLY RE-ADJUST SETTINGS AT THE HEAD UNIT.. ANOTHER ADVANTAGE I REMEMBER WAS THAT THE SOUND TEXTURE AND DETAILS OF THE BASS WERE MUCH RICHER AND DYNAMIC WITH THE TWO SUBS... THE INCREASE IN QUALITY OF THE SOUND SIGNATURES BETWEEN THE LOW STRINGS VS LOW SYNTHESIZERS VS PERCUSSION WAS SOMETHING ONLY TRUE AUDIOPHILES COULD APPRECIATE...
Thanks, I have a set of older really tall Logan Martin speakers and I was thinking of adding a sub. Now I will just go ahead and get 2 good subwoofers.
I would have added that the size and shape of the listening space would be an important consideration. In a big, wide open room, one could probably hear the differences with 2 subs. In a small, confined area, not... Like a car, for example. You could never hear stereo differences with 2 subs r/l in a car. Even in a studio control room, in most cases, not enough width to handle the large wavelength.
Howdy. A theoretical aspect. Let us assume a frequency of 80 Hz just to be sure there is no directivity. The same signal is fed to both channels. We feed a voltage of U Volts corresponding to a power of P Watts into a stereo woofer system. we get a total output power of 2P. Then we have a common woofer with a single woofer amplifier. It is a summing amplifier. The voltage is 2U Volts and the power is 4P. So we reduce the signal to a level of 0,7U Volts. The sum signal is 1,4U Volts and the power is 2P. We might think we got the balance issue covered. Now let us consider the signal is fed only to one channel. The stereo woofer system will yield 0P + 1P = P. A common woofer system will yield only 0,7 x 0,7 P = 0,5 P. No matter how one tweaks the attenuations. There will be some unbalance. So yeah. I advocate using stereo woofers.
I feel like a major factor would be room size. One small subwoofer can work perfectly in a small room. One large subwoofer can work in a medium size room and more than one large subwoofer could work in a large room.
When adding subs, I like to think of it like you are turning a 2 way system into a 3 way system. You consider your mid/bass drivers to be your mid range and the subwoofer becomes your bass driver. For this reason you need 2. Bass as well as everything else is played in stereo.
Thank you! I went from a single sub with two satellites and then added the second matching sub in my music studio. The satellites roll off at 120 and there is a noticeable difference. Especially with a properly sampled pipe organ being played. Also if a bass signal has any type of panning effects. The system is an EV ELX with a horn for highs, a 12” for under 5k and 18” for the sub. The system has its own amps and crossovers. I selected after rejecting systems from JBL, QSC and some other lesser known brands. Yes this is a music studio and not a living room setup.
it depends what type of music are you listening to. for classical, jazz and audiophile music you don't need a subwoofer. but for electronic, pop, rock, dance you'll need one. nost of these tracks have tricky 25 to 40 Hz stuff in them
Absolutely agree with you : Stereo-Subwoofers are even better. I'm very happy with my current set up: Maggies 3.7 and Duo JAl Subs! Thanks very much for sharing you experience.
Let me back Paul up. I have a very substantial pair of floor standers and for a long time was convinced they needed no augmentation. After listening to friends systems with lesser speakers than mine, but with subs, I began to appreciate their value as part of an audio system I went out a pair of small Rels, 10 inch active and 10 inch passive in each sub, and the difference is night and day. I could not go back to a system, a life, without subs. You don’t need to spend a fortune on a pair of oversized bulky and hefty units. Just stick with the best you can afford, they will make a massive difference.
I'd say that if your satellite speakers (main speakers) have a low enough f3 so that your subwoofer is only supporting the lowest octave, then you probably only need just one. But, If your satellite speakers only go down to 80 to 100 hz, then your subwoofer is carrying the lowest 2-2.5 octaves. In this case you will get some additional stereo placement by having two. My homebrew satellite speakers have an F3 of around 60hz (according to the design equations using the drivers Theil-Small parameters and the box dimensions). So my subwoofer is really only supporting the lowest 1.5 octaves. Given the small size of my room, I think I'm doing OK with just one subwoofer. Anyway, I'd rather have just one subwoofer that had usable response down to 20hz or lower, than a pair that only got down to 30hz (as some do).
I built a pair of subwoofer Cabinets each housing (2) 15" MTX Subwoofers for my theater room... Each pair L and R are in a 8 cubic foot vented enclosure tuned to 32 Hz... I get extention down to 20 hz @ -3db from its 38 hz peak in room. These play very flat from 20 - 70 hz at the +/- 3 db range... I agree Stereo Subwoofers Kick A$$!
Alot of people that listen to stereo music dont care too much for subwoofers as music is recorded to around 50 hz and a woofer can handle that. So really there is no need for a subwoofer unless your trying to reproduce lower than 40Hz frequencies, like Hollywood movies.
I have four 12"'s per side with a single 15" per side in front and twin 6"'s/12" passive and an active 15" on each side in back. Stereo Bass exists and is directional. If you hear a note on a Micheal Murray Telarc come in and out of phase (or reach room "lock" and make you think your floor is going to give way) then you know directional Bass and what it sounds like. It's not the IRS V's, but the IRS V's inspired my setup. The 15"'s are a homemade design loaded with some custom Sub drivers manufactured custom locally. Good Bass might not be "cheap" but it's closer to being both good and affordable now than it ever was back in the "bad old days" of early Sub design. YMMV...
Hi Paul, Could´t agree with you more !! One sub at the front center or a couple separated on each side of the room. I noticed by experience that two subs by pressurizing the room evenly, they can improve dynamics on frequencies they were not suppose to reach. One other thing I've discover along the time with my experiences is ... Subwoofers are sensitive to toe-in like regular speakers, you try that, and comeback to me, see how the soundstage focus and becomes bigger and richer. For those giving the first steps on Subs, they can be a very frustrating experience at the beginning but, here are two golden rules for starters; a) Sub alignment between two subs MUST be made by the micron, meaning the distances between back and side walls MUST be exactly the same on the two boxes, and I mean not by the millimeter, its by the micron !! b) If you spent a lot of money (like I did), on very expensive subs that have variable phase alignment (very handy), so that you don't have to move the subs micron by micron on your room ... Forget about it, leave the potentiometer at 0 and do the positioning / alignment by hand, will take a bit longer but you only have this trouble once, believe me. In my case, I started using the pot and after a few auditions the sub vibration was enough to desalign the setup. ;) Cheers !!
Would the sub woofers have to be identical? I have one old Kef which is now obsolete, I am looking at getting a second Kef sub but would be a different model
A well heeled audiobuddy of mine bought 8 Velodyne FRS 18 subs back in 1998 because he was concerned that his 12 feet 10 feet 10 feet (LWH) listening room has bass dead spots even with his full range main speakers with 12 inch woofers. 8 Velodynes solved the dead spot bass problem - but I wo der till this day if there was a more elegant solution that requires less money and additional boxes occuppying a rather limited space.
Woww, pretty awesome channel ! I'm new to this channel and I will say I love what u do and enjoy ur videos and always enjoy learning something new . Iam a audiophileat heart and I enjoy clean, precise and loud music . On, that note I would love one of your audiophile hats. Thank u .
I like subs to, two subwoofers in one room is good setup, in my room they are on opposite side of the room, bass is strong but not to aggressive, lot of air is moving, its nice to have 2 x sub in one room.
You need two subwoofers if they aren’t silent above 150Hz. Let’s say it cuts off at 120Hz, it will still has output above this frequency including harmonic distortion. Actually what reveals the position of your subwoofer might be it’s higher order harmonic distortion, if it’s a poor subwoofer.
A guy just gave me a 12" active sub with some other equipment. I'm not going to talk brands, it's irrelevant. I have large 15" 3-ways that go down to 28hz. I have a small 10" sub that is mainly for movies, it does enhance the bass with music, but the 15's alone are pretty darn good. I hook the new sub up. After some dinking around balancing out the two different model, different size subs I played some music and oh my God, it was incredible. Maybe not perfect but it convinced me. I'm going to invest in a matching pair of 15 or 18" subs. I've always liked the sound of big 3-ways, the twin subs really add punch and a balance I think. I listen to metal, blues and rock mostly, sometimes acoustic and classical. My wife likes all that stuff and hip-hop/dance type stuff. I really didn't think it would make much difference, but it really does.
what if the goal is to color the sound just the way you want it ? or perhaps maybe the goal is to get the right room so you can feel like you're their like paul says , but how close ? 50 ft or 5 ft away ?
In car audio atleast having two subs gets you more sound for the money. It allows you to have stereo sound so it can fade left to right and is usually better placement in a car. For example with two subs they'll be each positioned behind the left and right seats instead of center of the car so the bass will hit your back instead of right ear only. It's possible they'll be slightly out of sync though and worsen sound quality. I haven't heard of this being a problem.
Couple of caveats. Your room/environment really comes into play as well as the main speakers you are listening to AND volume and type of music. Most recorded music (including rock) only gets down to around 40HZ. I have a pair of Revel M20's (6.5" woofers and a 1" tweeter each) in a fairly small (and probably a bit too live) space and get plenty of bass.Also--bass should be considered in terms of not just "amount" but also "quality."
Another thought. There are formulae out there but what you hear bass-wise depends a lot on how far you are seated from your main speakers. I played bass (professionally for a decade or so. I can say that certain speaker enclosures can "trow" bass. The old Acoustic 360's (18" woofer in a folded cabinet-think John Paul Jones) sounded rather tame standing in front of them however stand in the back of the room--say fifty to a hundred feet away and the volume was quite impressive.
JohnLnyc True. But not always the case. The low B of a 5 string electric bass has a fundamental note of 31hz. But the lower harmonics on the bass go much lower. Just like the upper harmonics go higher. That's why we can hear a bass guitar and kick even on a clock radio - Upper harmonics going up to the lower midrange. So even though a low note on an Electric 4 String bass may hit a fundamental of 42hz but the lower harmonics will dive down to 20hz. Hard to hear (more felt than heard at 20hz) and it will be at a lower volume. Another example is the E0 (16hz) on big church pipe organ. The lower harmonics of this bass pedal will hit 10 hz. Very few people are aware of this because: 1. No commercial Subwoofer on the market can go down to 10hz. Yes, I know plenty of persons have built infrasonic subwoofers. 2. No infrasonic content. 3. These frequencies are felt not heard. So no one noticed. It is not surprising that people don't hear much Below 40hz. Most speakers don't go lower than that. And frequencies below 30hz are really only felt not heard. So it's not really possible to hear below 30hz. Our hearing supposedly goes down to 20hz, But most adults hearing bottoms out after 30hz. We feel frequencies mostly below 30hz. So chances are there was a lot of 30hz material during a movie. The subwoofer produced it but you didn't hear it....Felt it though. Just didn't realize it. Low frequency content is also dangerous. The first mix of Aliens 3 had lots of below 30hz sounds on it. During that first showing they noticed a lot of people were getting up and leaving the movie within the first 15 minutes. The mixers found out why - the low effect sounds (15 - 25hz) were rattling people's inside causing them to run to the washroom. Neither the original 1 hr and 52 min version of Aliens 3 or the 2 hour and 25 min Restored Work Print version of Aliens 3 has that low bass heavy mix. Too bad.... (See the Restored Work Print. It's a completely different movie.) But yes, the typical Top 40 CD or Mp3 file won't have much below 40hz. And even if it did most mastering engineers are filtering it out.
.....so....the people ran to the crapper , soiling their panties.....immediately upon exposure to the below 30Hz audio !!! Ha-Ha !!! What a scene !! Too bad its not true. "Myth Busters" tested this extensively in an episode and the above myth was "busted" . However, I built 2 identical subwoofers out of old empty Bozak cube shaped Hi-Fi boxes and placed a single 200 watt ,cast metal frame, dual copper voice coil 12 inch CAR subwoofer speaker in each box. Each box had about 5 cubic feet of volume....about the size of a dorm room refrigerator. Using a formula found on the internet, I installed a plastic 4" toilet flange in the face of each box, and then inserted a 12 and 3/4 inch piece of 4" PVC to act as a tuned bass port. The formula I found included a frequency generator that I used to test the boxes, which I had connected to a dedicated old Bose 1800 power amp and a quality old pro audio electronic crossover. The boxes were placed in opposite corners of a large room with a wood floor which was above another floor, ( making the floor resonant. The ceilings were very high and slanted upwards because of the contemporary design, The results were STUNNING.......two boxes were extremely effective in producing powerful and clear bass, which extended all the way down to 10 Hz, as the " formula" predicted the boxes would do with that tube and type woofer installed. At 20 to 10 Hz the "sound" was more like a large helicopter hovering over my roof, shaking and vibrating the whole house !! Adding these boxes to my system of JBL studio monitors caused my musician buddies to constantly come over with their "demos" to hear the full and rich sound. The boxes were found empty on the side of the road in a trash pile, and the 12 inch infinity "auto" subwoofers were bought on sale for " buy one at $50 and get second one FREE ". Ha Ha......the whole thing cost me about 60 bucks !!! The key was the higher quality of those particular Infinity subwoofers. Though supposedly meant for a car, the cast metal frame is usually found in more serious and professional speakers. the 200 watt handling dual copper voice coils allowed wiring the speakers so that each box was a 4 ohm load on each channel of the old Bose amp I had lying around that I bought, covered in dust, in the back of a dirty guitar shop for cheap.....an 85 pound hidden treasure nobody realized was valuable and high quality. Two subs are great !
John Morris + Another reason we can hear low tones from little speakers is that our brains are fooling us. Our ears detect the harmonics from the kick drum or bass guitar and our brains fill out the bottom.
tho stereo bass is nice of a concept, you can phase cancel them if you point them in the wrong direction or the shape of your room and it's object makes 1 side reflect faster then the other. i have that problem, i have my PC set on surround on 2 separate amps, i have 2 15 inch on the sub channel, and 2 columns with 12 inches in the front and 2 at the back, i had to put my back speaker's wires inverted (red in black and black in red) to stop canceling the bass... i also would need bass traps in some spots since the bass sounds louder outside of the room than in the middle of it! (the whole house shakes and in some spots in the room, it is paper flat!) so for multiple directions of bass, if it sounds flat, change the angles of your bass drivers (you may have to turn on almost 180 degrees! depending on the shape of the room. if so, i suggest adding bass traps!) (EDIT: i don't have money so no bass traps ;P )
I have read that two subs is more for dealing with room modes than having "stereo" sound. Maybe that is more from a home theater point of view (using LFE)? Great video as always!
That is correct. Most (99.9%) of stereo recordings are in mono below 100 Hz , so no stereo info in that subwoofer region . Even if there was , your listening room (and the separation between your speakers) is too small compared to the wavelenghts to hear it
Two can really help with standing waves and room positioning, but it's not wholly necessary, especially if you can get your one sub somewhere near the centre of the listening position and make sure it rolls off before about 60hz I wouldn't put too big a sub with small speakers, you seem to get a certain phase disjointment, most bookshelf speakers are fine with 10"
Lots to consider size of room,shape,and what you room is made of as in ,stud walls ,brick,concrete. And the place ment of them.and then setting them up correctly. And if your more into films or music... I've got lead shot that come with my speakers and don't no if to fill them up there floor standing speakers any one have any advice.
Theres even more benefits of having multiple subwoofers that you forgot to tell, Paul. The more you have the more you reduce lags in frequency responce curve, you can even have different subwoofer types, just like its better to mix midrarange types, its going to sound more natural. In the case of this guy he said he got a infinite baffle (sealed box) wich means better quality and even less flaws in the frequency response, no port holes and no port distortion (found in every port). When choosing a sub box I only go two options as an audiophile: Sealed or 4th order.
I went dual svs ultra 16s with my BW 802n and wow!!!! I have them turned up just enough to fill in that bottom end that the big 802 can’t reproduce. My system went from great to just simply amazing. I do feel a little guilty for under utilizing them since these subs can blow the windows out of my house but that’s not the point for getting these either.
We detect the direction of sound by two means - the relative arrival time of the sound wave as it hits each ear (i.e. the phase), and the relative amplitude (SPL) of the wave as it hits each ear. Whether we use phase or amplitude is dependent on the frequency. For frequencies with wavelengths longer than the distance between our ears we tend to use phase, and for shorter wavelengths we tend to use amplitude because phase is less reliable (phase aliasing artifacts of wavelengths that are not an even harmonic of the distance between the ears) when the wavelength is shorter than the distance between the ears. The reason why lower frequencies are harder to determine the source direction is because for very low frequencies the difference in phase between the wavelength as it hits each ear is too little for us to detect the difference.
Absolutely agree. The question is though, with the amount of money you invest in good stereo subwoofers is that money better spend on a upgraded pair of main speakers ? Not to mention that better main speakers are more closely tuned to blend with the rest of the speaker. You also dont have the challenge of proper placement and calibration of the subwoofers.
I use 2 subwoofers. One sub is enough bass but even crossed over at 60 Hz with a 36 dB/octave slope I can locate the one sub in the room. When I set up two subs at the same level and placed them next to my speakers where one was close to a corner and the other was by a hallway the corner one was noticeably louder and I could hear more bass from there so I turned up the other sub to match it.
Obviously late to this conversation. I surely wish I had two of the same subwoofers, however I only have two of different makes and models-extremely different. So I set my large single subwoofer as close to the middle of my system as possible with room constraints. Really happy with the sound, though two would be so fantastic.
I'm old. .er and an armchair audiophile...the advent of the subwoofer completely changed and enhanced the listening experience for me.luved my first quality 2.1 system.this new type of soundstage blew my mind and my apt.out...at the time...
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There's a lot of economics to consider here. The biggest one with two subwoofers is the cost of the divorce.
Imagine marrying a woman who wouldn't let me pursue my hobbies, I would rather stay alone forever.
🤣🤣
I thought you meant when you want to go with different subs and have to deal with 2 instead of 1. Obviously I’m not married
If you can't afford two subwoofers, you can't afford one.
Lmao
I have 4 sealed subwoofers. Music uses 2 subs at the front of the room. Movies in a 7.4.4 setup uses an additional 2 sealed subwoofers to the left/right of my couch.
music source=Apple Music lossless.
100% correct about a system not being complete without at least one subwoofer, it's like the missing piece that sub fills
I Agree subwoofers are optional but once you have they its gard to listen without them
listening to music without a subwoofer is like eating cake without the frosting, milk without cereal, sex with a condom.
Thanks Paul. Great information. I'm subscribing. I was born 71 years ago today and I hope I still have a lot of years to enjoy this hobby.
I was born 20 years 11 months and 12 days ago, and my father was born in 1945 he is the reason I'm a young audiophile
@@oscarkorlowsky4938 what the frick is that age gap
Gregor7677 Go hard son 😎🍺
Happy belated
A lot of ears too enjoy
Taking the "low sum out" of a 3-way active crossover to a subwoofer amp set for "mono in/stereo out" turns a tri-amped system into a beast. It makes watching NHRA Top Fuel drag racing an experience.
1:38 when it starts
Can you do this on all of them
Can you all just learn to relax before you learn. 🎉
Your videos are great. The experience of a lifetime in the industry producing fine products and treating customers right comes through.
In car audio atleast having two subs gets you more sound for the money. It allows you to have stereo sound so it can fade left to right and is usually better placement in a car. For example with two subs they'll be each positioned behind the left and right seats instead of center of the car so the bass will hit your back instead of right ear only. It's possible they'll be slightly out of sync though and worsen sound quality. I haven't heard of this being a problem.
Many years ago I read an interview with one of the founders of the company Lexicon. Lexicon make high end reverb units (to give music some audio space, for those who don't know) he said that you should use two bass or sub woofers because they put out of phase components into their reverb to widen the stereo perception. They do this because there are out of phase components to real world reverbs and spaces. so the reverb from each speaker is subtly different. if you use just one sub woofer then this effect is made into mono and lost. Lexicon Reverb is used on most music recordings to support or supplant real reverbs, even when the musicians think it isn't. so it WILL make a difference. at least that's what the guys at Lexicon say.
I love the diffraction grating your shirt is using, cool effect.
Watching Paul in these series is like traveling in a time machine!! Going back in time from the present videos to 5-6 years backwards! LOL
For a single subwoofer setup,j ust make sure the crossover frequency is low enough (mine is at 80hz), take time to found the right positioning for a sub regarding your listening position. Off course you will suffer from nulls in your room, but i can live with that as long the response on my listening spot is fine
I heard the Rockport Altair speakers 10 years ago and they were amazing sounding.
The Rockport Carbon Fiber Woofer and Carbon Fiber midbases on the Altairs sounded so articulate.
The Altairs i heard used a Scanspeak tweeter that sounded smooth.
I love the red color on the Rockport Cygnus speakers.
I run 2 sub's one in the front of my living room and one in the back. I love it! talking about feeling the Bass!!!
I have a very humble stereo system with built-in stereo subwoofers. It is so impressive. A friend of mine came to check my set up and he was impressed, specially with the bass sound. And I didn't even show him the audiphile cut of the album 'San Francisco' by Bobby Hutcherson with guest bassist Harold Land, who plays both acoustic and bass player on this 1971 album.
I know I'm years late on commenting on this video, but Paul nailed it with this one. A sub in general makes a great improvement in a sound system, but two is a monumental difference!
I read through some forums a while ago and there were some companies that recommended to setup one subwoofer on the center pre output and the other on the lfe/sub output of the a/v receiver. They also mentioned about finding the sweet spot for the subwoofer by putting the subwoofer in the listening position.
Thanks Paul I absolutely love your videos! Just ordered a second sub and can’t wait to hear what it does!
In most records the bass instruments bass guitar Bassdrum (Bass keyboards )are recorded in Mono and are almost always panned C in the mix for more high output levels. If you have a big wide room and can get two subwoofers to work whit out them cancelling out each other yes two subwoofers will sound bigger move more air and have 100% stereo paning compatibility. In a small narrow room one Mono subwoofer will probably be more easy to place in optimal position levels /phase and crossover match as bass extension to the main speakers. the main speakers play full bandwidth anyway so paning below 200hz can be heard anyway in the main speakers.One exception to the rule bass instruments always recorded in Mono and panned C-centred are Symphonic music or Jazz recorded in a hall in true Stereo with X/Y Otrf Bluimline M/S Microphone setup and such recordings the bass instruments will be panned same way as they are setup in the recording room.
That hat goes well with tevas, raybans, jeans, polo shirt and a Miata
Hi end audio, stereo subwoofers and a Miata. Life can't get much better ;-)
even with my single Stereo Integrity IB24 inch sub (xover is 70 @ -12db per octave) its very easy to tell that the LFE is "pressurizing" that side of the room - or loading - whatever term you want to use...
When a second sub was added to the opposite side of the room - the LFE energy becomes completely balanced in the room....as is the case with most Home Theaters I have installed....
Bass Player here - I love subwoofers. My question is about putting a subwoofer at every speaker. Making a 5.1 surround system to a 5.5 surround sound system. Even though we may not hear the direction of that frequency, wouldn't we want the shockwave? I play a lot of games and watch a lot of movies. I can feel the direction of the subwoofer. So if you picture yourself in the middle of the room, 5.1 surround sound system and someone in the game or movie kicked the door down behind you, the shockwave would come from the front, not the back. This throwing off the direction of the shockwave. Now if you upgrade to a 7.2 surround sound system and that same person kicks the door down on your left, you might feel the shockwave from the back and the front. However in real life the shockwave most likely come from side when that the door busts open.
subwoofers and I are good friends to, funny since we became friends all my other friends dont like me anymore, they talk behind my back saying chris's new friend subwoofer is a loudmouth , you can hear him a mile away! get it, lol!
I am a big fan of distributed bass, I run 2 12" servo subs in stereo and 3 hidden in room mono..The three mono subs are 10", 12", and 15" all set to their sweet spot via crossover and gains.. Makes for a very clean bass presence, I can turn the knob to any volume level without having to adjust the subs because they are not working hard to give me my bass.. Sounds real clean with any style of music.
Brian Campbell would you recommend A 2 or 3 different size sub setup for car audio in a SUV and if so how would you set up the crossovers??
What subs do you have playing via Stereo? What sort of frequency cut-offs run on them?
Before I even get 10 seconds into the video, YES YOU DO!
Laws of physics. Directionality is determined by a source signal hitting each ear at slightly different times causing a phase and level difference between them. You can not determine the source location of a sound if the frequency wavelength is lower than the distance between your ears. Below that frequency the wave hits both ears relatively in phase. No differentiation. If you can identify the location of a subwoofer in a room sonically it is because it is producing sounds above that frequency.
Wouldn't that be high frequency and not low? 30 Hz is a 30 foot wave right?
No, a 30Hz wave would have a wavelength of approx. 37.7ft assuming that the speed of sound where you are is roughly 1125 ft/s.
Paul McGowan In Rock and Pop music all low bass is mono in the mix. But Classal and Jazz is a different story. Pressure waves can be a factor in determining where the low bass is coming from. But not with Rock and Pop. Below 80hz is omnidirectional. In 5.1 mixes it's mostly going to be in the low effect channel.
Hint: Not every audio engineer uses the low effect channel and they DON'T LIKE THAT AT MASTERING. I have had (and others) the 5.1 mixes sent back with note, "Nothing in the low effect channel..." I try to tell them that's how I want it because I want stereo bass. And then I get a long, long, long lecture on acoustics and that persons with cheap systems can't have low bass in their main speakers because they can't handle them. I point out that all home systems have bass management so that no low bass is gonna get into the mains and blow them up. In fact no bass of ANY KIND will get to any of the 5 speakers of a cheap ass Home Theatre In A Box system. But no one listens.....
Those $300 in a box Home Cinemas should be outlawed! Anyway, those aren't subwoofers. They are woofers. 100 - 300 hz. They handle all of the bass and them some. But in the manual of your spiffy new Home Theatre System it says - YOU CAN PUT A SUBWOOFER ANYWHERE. Not this thing you can't. At 300hz you goona know where this thing is at all times. And the THD of these cheap amps can reach as high as 5% at loud volumes. I guess it way better than a sound bar but Jesus.....
You make a good point. But with todays modern music it's pointless. Stereo music before 1973 is where you get bass and kicks mixed all over. And of course stereo miked music like: Folk, Jazz and Classical. But even that is ending. Some mastering engineers have started to mono the bass below 80hz. Even in classical. Sad, but true.
Fuck you for making me click that Nicholas Brown
@John Morris
"And the THD of these cheap amps can reach as high as 5% at loud volumes."
ANY amp can reach a THD of more than that, IF you pushed them beyond their limit. The thing tough, is that a high power, high quality, amp, will have a limit high enough for you not need to push them byond that.
where u position the woofer matters too. stand at the back wall and listen. then stand in front of it. i noticed this years ago when taking speakers apart
I use stereo subwoofers, will never go below 2 again. The bass really fills the room compared to one.
What's your set up please?
I like twin powered subs... I keep one punchy, and the other a little boomy... It's amazing.
The cap makes you audiofiel jes that's what i Looking for looking for 😁🤩
I prefer a single subwoofer cabinet crossed over around 50-60 Hz with a 24 dB slope. Then a 3+ way stereo setup in addition. One 60-100 Hz, a midrange, and a tweeter. It allows for a better sound with smaller less expensive drivers.
I don't need speakers to reproduce the lowest octave (25-50 Hz), but these frequencies add realism at a substantial purchase price. I have heard single and double subwoofer systems, and I'd have to agree with Paul: two subwoofers are much easier to blend with the satellite speakers because of midrange directionality (there is no brickwall crossover for either speaker).
What if you use active/digital crossovers with a 48db/octave linkwitz-riley crossover?
For home audio 2 subs are a must. The Bass response is more "full" and immersive with 2 subs.
Exactly. Multiple subs reduce lags in the frequency responce curve. Just like multiple mids and highs do.
These are all so great. Thanks Paul.
Wavelength is inversely proportional to the frequency so low frequency sound implies a high wavelength.
Wavelength = (speed of sound)/frequency.
A 100 Hz low frequency sound would have a wavelength of 340/100 meters.That is 3.4 m. This wavelength is comparable to the size of a bedroom. A 20 Hz sound has a wavelength of 17 meters. This is the reason our ears cannot perceive the source and location of low frequencies. Human hearing is also most sensitive to pick up frequencies in the 2 kHz to 4 kHz range. This range also happens to be where the average human speech is located. Also leaves rustling and twigs cracking are also within this range. Humans have developed acute hearing in this range so as to detect predators and danger (obviously this was in the distant past and is also present in our human primates)
(Note: A sound frequency of 3000 Hz equates to a wavelength of about 11 cm which comparable to the distance between the left and right ear. Humans can easily detect sound source and the stereo audio effect at these frequencies/wavelengths and higher.)
Implies to a LONG wavelenght, not HIGH.
@j s we share an ancestry with the highest primates. Thats why our genetic code is about 98.5% identical to that of the higher primates such as the gorilla, chimp and orangutan. You shouldnt feel ashamed of your cousins.
@j s Incorrect. It depends on what genetic regions and markers you are comparing. Overall there is about an 85% similarity between mouse and human genomes.
Some genes may be 99% similar, some are 50%.
You can also find specific genes in bananas or bacteria that overlap with human genetic characteristics.
Why would you pluck out a genetic feature that has a 99% similarity with human genetic information and make a broad statement like the one you made in your post?
It's clear to me that you need to withdraw or edit your previous post and submit a formal apologise my friend.
@j s Evolution doesnt say we come from monkeys.
It's best that you dont comment on things and scientific facts that you clearly heavent read up on or dont possess a comprehension on.
How old is the earth?
@@smanzoli I have to disappoint you but you are not correct: it implies to a long wave and a high wavelength! But many make this mistake to be honest 😄
No, because low frequencies are essentially omnidirectional. One subwoofer is plenty. An exception might be in a movie sound system, because objects on screen move around.
Hi there, I love music and while trying to do some research to facilitate fitting my own car hi fi I came across your channel. Thank you for simplifying a very deep subject. I could listen to you all day.
Best regards
Douglas.
Diagonally placed subs may surpass stereo subwoofers in terms of quality for they cancel out some of the room nodes.
I finally bit the bullet and got two subwoofers Polk DSW PRO 550 for my Magnepan MG12s ( 2 pairs ). Basically extending the range of the front pair. You are so right about using Speaker level connections. Once I moved my system to my finished basement, much bigger room, I wanted to see how much of a difference they could make since I now have the space. Oh it's a noticable difference with music. I have yet to watch movies with the subs but will soon.
WOW, SOUND SYSTEM TALK ALWAYS REMINDS ME OF THE GOOD ‘OL DAYS BACK IN THE 90’s WHEN I HAD TWO (SEALED)12’s IN THE TRUNK OF MY 87 T-BIRD !!!
I USED TO SPEND HOURS OVER MANY WEEKS, and MONTHS MAKING SMALL TWEEKS TO THE VARIOUS ADJUSTMENTS...
...I REMEMBER FINDING THAT WITH STEREO SUBS IT WAS MUCH EASIER TO ACHIEVE A CONSISTENT LEVEL OF BASS ACROSS DIFFERENT TRACKS OF MUSIC (WITH VARYING QUALITIES OF SOUND ENGINEERING) ALLOWING ME TO FIND JUST ONE FLAT SOUND SETTING THAT WAS AWESOME FOR EVERYTHING WITHOUT HAVING TO CONSTANTLY RE-ADJUST SETTINGS AT THE HEAD UNIT.. ANOTHER ADVANTAGE I REMEMBER WAS THAT THE SOUND TEXTURE AND DETAILS OF THE BASS WERE MUCH RICHER AND DYNAMIC WITH THE TWO SUBS... THE INCREASE IN QUALITY OF THE SOUND SIGNATURES BETWEEN THE LOW STRINGS VS LOW SYNTHESIZERS VS PERCUSSION WAS SOMETHING ONLY TRUE AUDIOPHILES COULD APPRECIATE...
I am setting up my Australian Subwoofer with Martin Logan’s ESL,s . Wish me luck. I can’t pick it up so I have it where it always was.
Aug 2019.....still want the hat Paul!
Thanks, I have a set of older really tall Logan Martin speakers and I was thinking of adding a sub. Now I will just go ahead and get 2 good subwoofers.
Just Googled the Infinity IRS 5 speaker - Holy moly !!!!
I would love a hat. Mr Paul you should get some hard hat stickers too lol thanks for taking your time and explaining
I would have added that the size and shape of the listening space would be an important consideration. In a big, wide open room, one could probably hear the differences with 2 subs. In a small, confined area, not... Like a car, for example. You could never hear stereo differences with 2 subs r/l in a car. Even in a studio control room, in most cases, not enough width to handle the large wavelength.
Howdy. A theoretical aspect.
Let us assume a frequency of 80 Hz just to be sure there is no directivity. The same signal is fed to both channels. We feed a voltage of U Volts corresponding to a power of P Watts into a stereo woofer system. we get a total output power of 2P.
Then we have a common woofer with a single woofer amplifier. It is a summing amplifier. The voltage is 2U Volts and the power is 4P.
So we reduce the signal to a level of 0,7U Volts. The sum signal is 1,4U Volts and the power is 2P. We might think we got the balance issue covered.
Now let us consider the signal is fed only to one channel. The stereo woofer system will yield 0P + 1P = P. A common woofer system will yield only 0,7 x 0,7 P = 0,5 P. No matter how one tweaks the attenuations. There will be some unbalance.
So yeah. I advocate using stereo woofers.
I feel like a major factor would be room size. One small subwoofer can work perfectly in a small room. One large subwoofer can work in a medium size room and more than one large subwoofer could work in a large room.
When adding subs, I like to think of it like you are turning a 2 way system into a 3 way system. You consider your mid/bass drivers to be your mid range and the subwoofer becomes your bass driver. For this reason you need 2. Bass as well as everything else is played in stereo.
Why?
Thank you! I went from a single sub with two satellites and then added the second matching sub in my music studio. The satellites roll off at 120 and there is a noticeable difference. Especially with a properly sampled pipe organ being played. Also if a bass signal has any type of panning effects. The system is an EV ELX with a horn for highs, a 12” for under 5k and 18” for the sub. The system has its own amps and crossovers. I selected after rejecting systems from JBL, QSC and some other lesser known brands. Yes this is a music studio and not a living room setup.
it depends what type of music are you listening to. for classical, jazz and audiophile music you don't need a subwoofer. but for electronic, pop, rock, dance you'll need one. nost of these tracks have tricky 25 to 40 Hz stuff in them
What is audiophile music?
Absolutely agree with you : Stereo-Subwoofers are even better. I'm very happy with my current set up: Maggies 3.7 and Duo JAl Subs!
Thanks very much for sharing you experience.
Let me back Paul up. I have a very substantial pair of floor standers and for a long time was convinced they needed no augmentation. After listening to friends systems with lesser speakers than mine, but with subs, I began to appreciate their value as part of an audio system I went out a pair of small Rels, 10 inch active and 10 inch passive in each sub, and the difference is night and day. I could not go back to a system, a life, without subs. You don’t need to spend a fortune on a pair of oversized bulky and hefty units. Just stick with the best you can afford, they will make a massive difference.
If phase calibrated, its about spatial coverage, and projection upwards and downwards in terms of formants and secondary level harmonics
I'd say that if your satellite speakers (main speakers) have a low enough f3 so that your subwoofer is only supporting the lowest octave, then you probably only need just one. But, If your satellite speakers only go down to 80 to 100 hz, then your subwoofer is carrying the lowest 2-2.5 octaves. In this case you will get some additional stereo placement by having two.
My homebrew satellite speakers have an F3 of around 60hz (according to the design equations using the drivers Theil-Small parameters and the box dimensions). So my subwoofer is really only supporting the lowest 1.5 octaves. Given the small size of my room, I think I'm doing OK with just one subwoofer. Anyway, I'd rather have just one subwoofer that had usable response down to 20hz or lower, than a pair that only got down to 30hz (as some do).
If you still have some caps left, I'd love to get one! I live in Japan!
I built a pair of subwoofer Cabinets each housing (2) 15" MTX Subwoofers for my theater room... Each pair L and R are in a 8 cubic foot vented enclosure tuned to 32 Hz... I get extention down to 20 hz @ -3db from its 38 hz peak in room. These play very flat from 20 - 70 hz at the +/- 3 db range... I agree Stereo Subwoofers Kick A$$!
Love the song at the end of the video. Shazam couldn't recognize it. Could anyone point me in the right direction, please?
Awesome Vibes Paul. Enjoying your insight all the way in ESwatini, Southern Africa. Sound spec is Bowers & Wilkins 685 S2 and an Onkyo Amp.
Do you NEED? Of course not. Do you WANT? Quite possibly, yes.
I really like the calm and chill intro music you have for your videos. Sub!
Thank you Paul!
Alot of people that listen to stereo music dont care too much for subwoofers as music is recorded to around 50 hz and a woofer can handle that. So really there is no need for a subwoofer unless your trying to reproduce lower than 40Hz frequencies, like Hollywood movies.
I have four 12"'s per side with a single 15" per side in front and twin 6"'s/12" passive and an active 15" on each side in back. Stereo Bass exists and is directional. If you hear a note on a Micheal Murray Telarc come in and out of phase (or reach room "lock" and make you think your floor is going to give way) then you know directional Bass and what it sounds like. It's not the IRS V's, but the IRS V's inspired my setup. The 15"'s are a homemade design loaded with some custom Sub drivers manufactured custom locally. Good Bass might not be "cheap" but it's closer to being both good and affordable now than it ever was back in the "bad old days" of early Sub design. YMMV...
How your hearing? Mine I Just walking around saying WHAT all day especially at all the birds!!!
Actually we can detect directionality at very low frequencies, that's why you need "stereo" subwoofers.
I think you made me buy subwoofer...
Hi Paul, Could´t agree with you more !! One sub at the front center or a couple separated on each side of the room. I noticed by experience that two subs by pressurizing the room evenly, they can improve dynamics on frequencies they were not suppose to reach. One other thing I've discover along the time with my experiences is ... Subwoofers are sensitive to toe-in like regular speakers, you try that, and comeback to me, see how the soundstage focus and becomes bigger and richer.
For those giving the first steps on Subs, they can be a very frustrating experience at the beginning but, here are two golden rules for starters;
a) Sub alignment between two subs MUST be made by the micron, meaning the distances between back and side walls MUST be exactly the same on the two boxes, and I mean not by the millimeter, its by the micron !!
b) If you spent a lot of money (like I did), on very expensive subs that have variable phase alignment (very handy), so that you don't have to move the subs micron by micron on your room ... Forget about it, leave the potentiometer at 0 and do the positioning / alignment by hand, will take a bit longer but you only have this trouble once, believe me. In my case, I started using the pot and after a few auditions the sub vibration was enough to desalign the setup. ;)
Cheers !!
Two subs interfere.
@@mirod5222 When they have phase selection, they can be set so they do not; they actually work together.
Yes.Without subwoofer not right stereo system.
Paul, will the cap make my system sound better?:)
Yes, but you need to buy his recommened bi-directional cables too
You're funny🤣🤣🤣
Would the sub woofers have to be identical? I have one old Kef which is now obsolete, I am looking at getting a second Kef sub but would be a different model
A well heeled audiobuddy of mine bought 8 Velodyne FRS 18 subs back in 1998 because he was concerned that his 12 feet 10 feet 10 feet (LWH) listening room has bass dead spots even with his full range main speakers with 12 inch woofers. 8 Velodynes solved the dead spot bass problem - but I wo der till this day if there was a more elegant solution that requires less money and additional boxes occuppying a rather limited space.
Video starts atc1:36
Woww, pretty awesome channel ! I'm new to this channel and I will say I love what u do and enjoy ur videos and always enjoy learning something new . Iam a audiophileat heart and I enjoy clean, precise and loud music . On, that note I would love one of your audiophile hats. Thank u .
I like subs to, two subwoofers in one room is good setup, in my room they are on opposite side of the room, bass is strong but not to aggressive, lot of air is moving, its nice to have 2 x sub in one room.
i got 2x 12inch and i place them left right :) because stereo :P
VERY NICE REEL TO REEL RECORDER MAN!!!!!
It looks like you need someone dependable to cut the lawn. I could do it for you and take home any equipment that requires testing.
You need two subwoofers if they aren’t silent above 150Hz. Let’s say it cuts off at 120Hz, it will still has output above this frequency including harmonic distortion. Actually what reveals the position of your subwoofer might be it’s higher order harmonic distortion, if it’s a poor subwoofer.
A guy just gave me a 12" active sub with some other equipment. I'm not going to talk brands, it's irrelevant. I have large 15" 3-ways that go down to 28hz. I have a small 10" sub that is mainly for movies, it does enhance the bass with music, but the 15's alone are pretty darn good. I hook the new sub up. After some dinking around balancing out the two different model, different size subs I played some music and oh my God, it was incredible. Maybe not perfect but it convinced me. I'm going to invest in a matching pair of 15 or 18" subs. I've always liked the sound of big 3-ways, the twin subs really add punch and a balance I think. I listen to metal, blues and rock mostly, sometimes acoustic and classical. My wife likes all that stuff and hip-hop/dance type stuff. I really didn't think it would make much difference, but it really does.
I agree with you, I have the b&w dm620i and they sound great with music not so with movies. Know I have a sub to my system and movies sounds great!
what if the goal is to color the sound just the way you want it ? or perhaps maybe the goal is to get the right room so you can feel like you're their like paul says , but how close ? 50 ft or 5 ft away ?
just the note I was wondering about for sooo long and got the most beautiful solution for my sub satisfaction. Thank you dear.
In car audio atleast having two subs gets you more sound for the money. It allows you to have stereo sound so it can fade left to right and is usually better placement in a car. For example with two subs they'll be each positioned behind the left and right seats instead of center of the car so the bass will hit your back instead of right ear only. It's possible they'll be slightly out of sync though and worsen sound quality. I haven't heard of this being a problem.
Couple of caveats. Your room/environment really comes into play as well as the main speakers you are listening to AND volume and type of music. Most recorded music (including rock) only gets down to around 40HZ. I have a pair of Revel M20's (6.5" woofers and a 1" tweeter each) in a fairly small (and probably a bit too live) space and get plenty of bass.Also--bass should be considered in terms of not just "amount" but also "quality."
Another thought. There are formulae out there but what you hear bass-wise depends a lot on how far you are seated from your main speakers.
I played bass (professionally for a decade or so. I can say that certain speaker enclosures can "trow" bass. The old Acoustic 360's (18" woofer in a folded cabinet-think John Paul Jones) sounded rather tame standing in front of them however stand in the back of the room--say fifty to a hundred feet away and the volume was quite impressive.
JohnLnyc True. But not always the case. The low B of a 5 string electric bass has a fundamental note of 31hz. But the lower harmonics on the bass go much lower. Just like the upper harmonics go higher. That's why we can hear a bass guitar and kick even on a clock radio - Upper harmonics going up to the lower midrange. So even though a low note on an Electric 4 String bass may hit a fundamental of 42hz but the lower harmonics will dive down to 20hz. Hard to hear (more felt than heard at 20hz) and it will be at a lower volume. Another example is the E0 (16hz) on big church pipe organ. The lower harmonics of this bass pedal will hit 10 hz. Very few people are aware of this because:
1. No commercial Subwoofer on the market can go down to 10hz. Yes, I know plenty of persons have built infrasonic subwoofers.
2. No infrasonic content.
3. These frequencies are felt not heard. So no one noticed.
It is not surprising that people don't hear much Below 40hz. Most speakers don't go lower than that. And frequencies below 30hz are really only felt not heard. So it's not really possible to hear below 30hz. Our hearing supposedly goes down to 20hz, But most adults hearing bottoms out after 30hz. We feel frequencies mostly below 30hz. So chances are there was a lot of 30hz material during a movie. The subwoofer produced it but you didn't hear it....Felt it though. Just didn't realize it.
Low frequency content is also dangerous. The first mix of Aliens 3 had lots of below 30hz sounds on it. During that first showing they noticed a lot of people were getting up and leaving the movie within the first 15 minutes. The mixers found out why - the low effect sounds (15 - 25hz) were rattling people's inside causing them to run to the washroom. Neither the original 1 hr and 52 min version of Aliens 3 or the 2 hour and 25 min Restored Work Print version of Aliens 3 has that low bass heavy mix. Too bad.... (See the Restored Work Print. It's a completely different movie.)
But yes, the typical Top 40 CD or Mp3 file won't have much below 40hz. And even if it did most mastering engineers are filtering it out.
@@JohnMorris-ge6hq people can't hear infrasound. That's below the threshold of human hearing.
.....so....the people ran to the crapper , soiling their panties.....immediately upon exposure to the below 30Hz audio !!! Ha-Ha !!! What a scene !! Too bad its not true. "Myth Busters" tested this extensively in an episode and the above myth was "busted" . However, I built 2 identical subwoofers out of old empty Bozak cube shaped Hi-Fi boxes and placed a single 200 watt ,cast metal frame, dual copper voice coil 12 inch CAR subwoofer speaker in each box. Each box had about 5 cubic feet of volume....about the size of a dorm room refrigerator. Using a formula found on the internet, I installed a plastic 4" toilet flange in the face of each box, and then inserted a 12 and 3/4 inch piece of 4" PVC to act as a tuned bass port. The formula I found included a frequency generator that I used to test the boxes, which I had connected to a dedicated old Bose 1800 power amp and a quality old pro audio electronic crossover. The boxes were placed in opposite corners of a large room with a wood floor which was above another floor, ( making the floor resonant. The ceilings were very high and slanted upwards because of the contemporary design,
The results were STUNNING.......two boxes were extremely effective in producing powerful and clear bass, which extended all the way down to 10 Hz, as the " formula" predicted the boxes would do with that tube and type woofer installed. At 20 to 10 Hz the "sound" was more like a large helicopter hovering over my roof, shaking and vibrating the whole house !! Adding these boxes to my system of JBL studio monitors caused my musician buddies to constantly come over with their "demos" to hear the full and rich sound.
The boxes were found empty on the side of the road in a trash pile, and the 12 inch infinity "auto" subwoofers were bought on sale for " buy one at $50 and get second one FREE ". Ha Ha......the whole thing cost me about 60 bucks !!! The key was the higher quality of those particular Infinity subwoofers. Though supposedly meant for a car, the cast metal frame is usually found in more serious and professional speakers. the 200 watt handling dual copper voice coils allowed wiring the speakers so that each box was a 4 ohm load on each channel of the old Bose amp I had lying around that I bought, covered in dust, in the back of a dirty guitar shop for cheap.....an 85 pound hidden treasure nobody realized was valuable and high quality. Two subs are great !
John Morris + Another reason we can hear low tones from little speakers is that our brains are fooling us. Our ears detect the harmonics from the kick drum or bass guitar and our brains fill out the bottom.
tho stereo bass is nice of a concept, you can phase cancel them if you point them in the wrong direction or the shape of your room and it's object makes 1 side reflect faster then the other.
i have that problem, i have my PC set on surround on 2 separate amps, i have 2 15 inch on the sub channel, and 2 columns with 12 inches in the front and 2 at the back, i had to put my back speaker's wires inverted (red in black and black in red) to stop canceling the bass... i also would need bass traps in some spots since the bass sounds louder outside of the room than in the middle of it! (the whole house shakes and in some spots in the room, it is paper flat!) so for multiple directions of bass, if it sounds flat, change the angles of your bass drivers (you may have to turn on almost 180 degrees! depending on the shape of the room. if so, i suggest adding bass traps!) (EDIT: i don't have money so no bass traps ;P )
I have read that two subs is more for dealing with room modes than having "stereo" sound. Maybe that is more from a home theater point of view (using LFE)?
Great video as always!
One sub between the speaker works just fine in my experience.
That is correct. Most (99.9%) of stereo recordings are in mono below 100 Hz , so no stereo info in that subwoofer region . Even if there was , your listening room (and the separation between your speakers) is too small compared to the wavelenghts to hear it
I can hear the direction of the bass when I turn my sub 90deg left or right.
Two can really help with standing waves and room positioning, but it's not wholly necessary, especially if you can get your one sub somewhere near the centre of the listening position and make sure it rolls off before about 60hz
I wouldn't put too big a sub with small speakers, you seem to get a certain phase disjointment, most bookshelf speakers are fine with 10"
Lots to consider size of room,shape,and what you room is made of as in ,stud walls ,brick,concrete. And the place ment of them.and then setting them up correctly. And if your more into films or music...
I've got lead shot that come with my speakers and don't no if to fill them up there floor standing speakers any one have any advice.
Theres even more benefits of having multiple subwoofers that you forgot to tell, Paul. The more you have the more you reduce lags in frequency responce curve, you can even have different subwoofer types, just like its better to mix midrarange types, its going to sound more natural. In the case of this guy he said he got a infinite baffle (sealed box) wich means better quality and even less flaws in the frequency response, no port holes and no port distortion (found in every port). When choosing a sub box I only go two options as an audiophile: Sealed or 4th order.
I went dual svs ultra 16s with my BW 802n and wow!!!! I have them turned up just enough to fill in that bottom end that the big 802 can’t reproduce. My system went from great to just simply amazing. I do feel a little guilty for under utilizing them since these subs can blow the windows out of my house but that’s not the point for getting these either.
We detect the direction of sound by two means - the relative arrival time of the sound wave as it hits each ear (i.e. the phase), and the relative amplitude (SPL) of the wave as it hits each ear. Whether we use phase or amplitude is dependent on the frequency. For frequencies with wavelengths longer than the distance between our ears we tend to use phase, and for shorter wavelengths we tend to use amplitude because phase is less reliable (phase aliasing artifacts of wavelengths that are not an even harmonic of the distance between the ears) when the wavelength is shorter than the distance between the ears. The reason why lower frequencies are harder to determine the source direction is because for very low frequencies the difference in phase between the wavelength as it hits each ear is too little for us to detect the difference.
Absolutely agree. The question is though, with the amount of money you invest in good stereo subwoofers is that money better spend on a upgraded pair of main speakers ? Not to mention that better main speakers are more closely tuned to blend with the rest of the speaker. You also dont have the challenge of proper placement and calibration of the subwoofers.
I use 2 subwoofers. One sub is enough bass but even crossed over at 60 Hz with a 36 dB/octave slope I can locate the one sub in the room. When I set up two subs at the same level and placed them next to my speakers where one was close to a corner and the other was by a hallway the corner one was noticeably louder and I could hear more bass from there so I turned up the other sub to match it.
Sounds right to me I had 2-15 passive subs.
Me too xD. Never go back. Mine opinion is, buy 2 bigger cheaper 15 Bass than one strong expensive 12 inch.
Obviously late to this conversation. I surely wish I had two of the same subwoofers, however I only have two of different makes and models-extremely different. So I set my large single subwoofer as close to the middle of my system as possible with room constraints. Really happy with the sound, though two would be so fantastic.
I think it’s 2 pole filter. I dabble in synthesizers, which are kind of like analog computers.
I'm old. .er and an armchair audiophile...the advent of the subwoofer completely changed and enhanced the listening experience for me.luved my first quality 2.1 system.this new type of soundstage blew my mind and my apt.out...at the time...
this guy reminds me so much of my own dad... but a kinder better version of him.
why am i crying?
Excellent video.Thank you sir.