I felt the need to rant about scale length, string tension and some misinformation contained in a magazine review of the new Jimi Hendrix tribute stratocaster.
When you bend a string, you are bending the entire, unanchored portion of the string. On a locked nut, you are bending the string between bridge and nut (obviously) and the greater the bend, the greater the increase in tension. On a guitar with no locking nut, you bend the string between bridge and nut AND the portion between nut and tuner. As you bend, the string will "slip" across the nut. As it does so, it effectively becomes longer and, therefore, flatter - this means that you need to bend the string more to reach the target pitch. This makes it feel as if the string is "looser". We are talking fractions of an inch here, but they are still perceptible.
@@josephsmith8673 Did you see the part of the video where she effectively said the exact same thing as the person you say is correct? The tension of a string is not the same thing as its elasticity. Don't get me wrong, this video was an unnecessarily long way to say that Guitarist Magazine doesn't know their high-school physics definitions, but you sound pretty silly calling an expert full of it when you didn't even get what they were saying.
The string length and break angle beyond the nut DOES effect the string tension, and the tone. This is true at the bridge as well. Generally speaking, a harder break angle over the nut or at the bridge saddles will be brighter and more tense, but at a certain point, it actually reduces tension as though it's shortening the scale. Too much break at the nut can throw off the intonation on the first few frets. Too little can create muddy overtones and won't hold the string in place. It gets more complicated with different bridge types and headstock designs and the string retainers on Fenders, but as for the Hendrix guitar, it's true. The shorter and harder break angle on the high strings actually reduces tension because the guitar sees it as a shorter scale length.
Re "The string length and break angle beyond the nut DOES effect the string tension", that has been known to be wrong since at least the 1700s (Mersenne). Tension is due to scale length, tuned frequency, and string mass per unit length. You are confusing string tension with string stiffness. The latter is affected by the additional factors you mention.
The tension of the string of a stringed musical instrument is defined completely by the pitch the string is tuned to, its vibrating length, and its mass (weight) per unit of length. This is a matter of basic physics. But there are all sorts of other quantities and qualities that are said to affect string tension. They do not, but (and this is a big but) some of these may indeed affect the longitudinal stiffness and the overall compliance of the string, and this will affect how tight the string feels to the player.
I've got hundreds of editions of Guitarist from as far back as the mid 80's. When I became a teacher I stopped buying it because there's a lot of questionable rhetoric and misinformation..
Susan, you are correct until it comes to bending the strings which is what I believe they were referring to in the article. When you are bending a string on a non-locking nut instrument, the entire length of the string is being stretched, not just the portion in front of the nut since the string is free to move back and forth within the nut slot. The longer a string is, the more it will stretch with any given amount of force as compared to a shorter length of string with which an equal amount of force is applied to. Since the overall length of a longer string is lengthened more during a bend than on a shorter length of string on an identical scale-length instrument with an identical string gauge tuned to the same pitch, the bend on the longer string will require the player to bend the string further to obtain the pitch they are ascending to. As we all know, the more you bend a string, the more resistance the player feels. This is perceived by the player as higher tension because they are required to bend the string further, and as they do, the string resistance increases. An easy way to test this theory: try bending strings on a Floyd Rose equipped guitar with the nut unlocked vs. after locking it. It is very noticeable. Most people even feel the difference when swapping a modern trem block in a Strat with a vintage style because the holes the strings sit in have a more shallow depth on the vintage block, thus the overall string length is greater.
The word we're missing here is "compliance". The strings on a Gibson 335 style guitar with a trapeze tailpiece will have more compliance than a 335 with a stopbar because the strings are longer overall, has nothing to do with string tension. The trapeze tailpiece guitar will feel squishier. The strings will need to be bent a bit further to affect the same pitch change tho.
This is not the easiest to explain, and I thank you for your patience in explaining it. Something similarly relevant would be the Epiphone Frequensator tailpiece (as seen on some old or limiited Epi Sheratons). I have attempted to figure out and read up on what the split length tailpiece would do, and all I got was "it affects bends". Your explanation on the overall length of a string, the tension, and how it affects the tone and bends helped me to understand it all better. Thank you.
Susan, I love your accent. Thank you for verifying my own explanation and experience of this phenomenon. I've played several vintage Strats for many years and now my favorite guitar is my new left handed Nash Strat. I'm right handed. I honestly believe that the best design for the Fender headstock is the reverse design and I think Fender would have gone with that design if it had not put the tuners awkwardly at the bottom of the headstock. Gibson remedied this situation by putting banjo tuners through the back of the reverse headstock on the Firebird. I always explain that you get to a higher pitch quicker when bending the treble strings because there is less string to bend. I have convinced at least one pro musician to put a reverse headstock neck on his Strat. The other aspect of the reverse headstock that I love is that it makes the bass strings sound bigger. My explanation is there is more beef there now and it sounds bigger. What are your thoughts? Jimi always had the best sounding bass notes, almost piano like. Which, if you look at the piano design, it is the same; longer bass strings and shorter treble strings. Thanks for the video. I assume you are in England somewhere. Let me know.
It could be that what they meant was that the greater the length of string between the nut and tuning peg, the more the string will 'creep' through the nut slot whilst making a string bend. Visualize an absurd case, with a metres-long peg to nut length, bending a string an inch up the fretboard will result in hardly any increase in string tension i.e. a you wont get much of an increase in pitch, since pitch is obviously related to string tension. So, a greater length of string _behind_ the nut will make bending feel less 'responsive', in a similar way that a floating tremelo does. Maybe that's what they were getting at? If it is, they need a proof reader.
Nice one Susan. Very clearly presented. I've been trying to get my head round this for ages and you've hit the nail on the head. I am actually a violin maker and guitarist. Violnmakers get obsessed with 'afterlength' (from the bridge to the tailpiece). Slightly altering this length seems to effect the sound, not for tension reasons as you've shown but for the sympathetic vibrations. Often makers will actually tune this length.
I'm sure there is a difference in the way string bends feel with the head stock reversed, however, the biggest difference between most people bending a string and Hendrix is that he had huge hands and was strong enough to do crazy bends with ease.
Nicely done. I feel for a bit for Guitarist here, though. (I would, I edited it for years). We've written a lot of stuff over 30-ish years, most of which has been useful and relevant. And you're absolutely right to pick up on the errors when they happen. It's a great analysis and explanation of what was written. However... The inference is that the writer doesn't know what he's talking about and that is a little unfair, even in light of the tension mistake. The point is that a reverse peghead on a Strat feels different to play than the standard way around - thankfully we all agree on that. You don't have to bend the top strings as far to get the equivalent pitch, depending on how the bridge is set of course. I can sort of see why that might end up as being described as less tension (even though it isn't), because in some sense, you get to the note quicker - therefore you might perceive it as 'easier' to bend? Maybe, I don't know - that's speculation. In any case, I'm sure Nev and Guitarist will be a little red faced at the poor explanation. You do feel like a twit when you drop a clanger, god knows I dropped a few over the years. So. 1) The pegehad orientation does have an effect on how a Strat feels to play. That bit is not a myth, a Chinese whisper or anything else. You explain it brilliantly in the video. 2) Guitarist got their tension assertions mixed up and explained it back to front. Are we happy with that? You should write a column for the mag that deals with guitar myths, Susan - it'd be super popular. Maybe this is your springboard!
+Mick Taylor thanks Mick. I could do an analysis of tonewood properties but I'm not sure I'm that brave :-) I like the idea of guitar based science experiments though.
As delightful as this is (and it is!) Unless the plan is to fade out with the credibility of a RUclips "expert" and none of the supporters, then "a red face or two" might not be a sufficient response to being corrected so well on such a fundamental mistake. String "tension" is pretty fundamental to a guitar... Much like the use of the right words in the right place is to a publication. In this age of diversity and competing media formats, the magazine might have more to gain from seeing that somebody like Susan has REAL opportunity given to her... As lovely as encouragement is and all, it holds about as much water (especially in your industry) as telling the tea room girl she "might run the place in a few years making a cuppa like this!" Just say'n...
You know I don't work for Guitarist any more, Ben? Not since 2013. I still contribute from time to time, but I haven't been editor since 2013. So I'm just commenting as an observer. Interestingly, I mentioned it on That Pedal Show, having picked up a reverse peghead Strat following this debate. I had a number of people (including people who build guitars) get it touch to say I'd got it wrong and that it //does// affect string tension. Okay, okay, we know it doesn't, but that's the perception given that it does affect the feel of the strings so significantly. Back to the point, I'm just commenting - I don't work there any more. Cheers!
That's the one thing we do all agreed on, and that Susan explains in her video. The longer the total string travel (even if the scale length remains the same) the more 'stretch' the string requires to raise it to the equivalent pitch. People observe this when talking about the difference between a wraparound bridge and a tune o matic/stoptail, and even when stringing a Les Paul over the top of the stoptail, rather than through it (one of the reasons Bonamassa does it). It absolutely does feel different, reverse peghead Strat included.
I think I agree with you. In summary, the tension is exactly the same (so long as one isn't pulling the string across the nut by bending a note, because as soon as you can overcome the friction of the nut when doing so, you introduce slinkiness relative to the amount of string from the nut to the tuner).
Another good way to understand this is string trees. The more your string trees pull down your high strings, the tighter they feel. The closer the tuner is to the nut, the more it pulls your string down, like a string tree. So same effect.
I have been telling people for years that the longer the string (as in a Fender) the further you have to bend it in order for it to raise in tone one step. It‘s simple physics.
The nut is nothing more than a permanent capo, but one that allows the string to move relatively freely through it if tension is applied via a vibrato bar or by bending the string. Same thing for the bridge. When you intonate a guitar, you're changing the position of the bridge "capo". Here's a google search for guitar string tension: www.google.com/search?q=equations+for+measuring+guitar+string+tension&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 Shorter scale guitars feel "slinkier" because you don't have to bend the string as far to achieve the same increase in pitch. String tension depends on the distance between its tuner and where it is anchored in the body.
This long string stretches more compared to the short string phenomena is a beautiful experiment to show some of the basic elements of elasticity. This is a subfield of mechanics. The string itself is the same in both cases. Same material, same cross section. Only the length of the string is different. If you could hang on to the string the same way, even the pulling force would be the same. So what is the difference than? To understand this phenomenon, you must understand what is the difference between Mechanical Strain and Deformation. It is not easy to understand, but Strain is a very localized (microscopic) quality of the material and the structure, while deformation is a general behavior (macroscopic) of the whole structure. Strain is a function of the material, the cross section of the string and the pulling force. Stretching is a function of the strain and the total length of the string. Pitch of a plucked string is a function of the cross section (diameter), length of the string (between nuts) and it's tension. In elasticity there is no stress (tension) without strain and there is no strain without deformation (stretching). The opposite is the also true, without deformation (stretching the string), you cannot increase it's tension, you cannot rise it's pitch. It's not easy. At the University it takes a while for the students to get familiar with these terms.
8 лет назад+13
Could it be the reviewer has simply copied some marketing bullshit from the Fender press release that came with the review model?
That "Reviewer" is Neville Marten........you may want to check his credentials. He is the man who personally set up Jimi Hendrix's strat before it's sale. He's far from the ordinary reviewer. Mick Taylor (formally of Guitarist, now with Andertons and That Pedal Show) who is beyond well respected has said on this page that Neville Marten has MORE experience and knows MORE about guitars than anyone else he's ever met!
mick Tayler is a duffer, and not respected by me for one. he's as much the problem here as anyone. Yes, Neville Marten is guilty of not thinking it through, or writing well enough or not knowing his audience. all three probably. bit of denial as well.
I think you nailed it. Its probably that simple. Just going through the motions and dont really care if its true or described properly for that matter. Plenty of people who are knowledgeable about guitars have spewed bigger b.s. before.
Hi Susan, don't forget about the string guides. On a USA strat these have little rollers, but the older 50's and 60's design is like a "T" shape. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that the string guides are positioned to even out the tension because of the way 6-in-a-row machine heads are positioned. On a Jem or an RG Ibanez use a bar so that the tension is more fairly shared across the strings (for when the locking nut is loosened). So basically, you're right. But as long as the string guides are being used the tension should effectively even out - kind of like tent pegs holding up a tent.
I watched this video, nearly two years ago, after acquiring the Strat in question in the video. Since then, I've built a mongrel Strat with a lefty neck I had laying around, and with the same pick guard (Stratosphere). I meant to reply to this video when I first watched it, but felt it wasn't necessary, as Susan is absolutely correct. The tension doesn't change, the string travel does. My Hendrix Strat has a Major 3rd float. Bought the guitar, brand new, set up that way. I doubt it came from the factory set up with that high a float, but it works, so I leave it alone. The Strat I put together has a min 3rd float on the bridge. I also own two right hand neck Strats with min 3rd bridge floats. The floats do come into play, due to spring/string tension. They are not anchored to the bodies, so whatever bends are made, pulls the bridge toward the nut. I'm nearly half a century old, and have played guitar (seriously) since I was fourteen...you do the math..., so I'm not a newby and own, last count, fourteen guitars... considering another purchase soon. Just an aside, as I'm to the point where I modify certain guitars to my liking, and can put together, and wire up, guitars fairly easily. From personal experience, having both left and right necked Strats, the actual string tension doesn't change, the travel space does, which makes bending the plain strings different on left and right necks. Even with the floats on my Strat bridges, there is a significant difference. I can bend the plain strings much easier on a right hand neck than on a left hand. I can bend the wound strings easier (low E downward) on a left hand neck than a right hand. This includes the movement of the bridges with the bends. Two are Fender vibratos, two are Callaham...which is only on the one I put together, the Hendrix one is stock. All guitars tuned A440 standard.
lovely explanation and very interesting, you should write an article for Guitarist magazine, paid of course. I am hooked on your channel. The other thing I admire about you is your pace. it enhances the quality of your woodwork as well, took me a loooong time to get that when i make or do anything for myself and im quite old now, still trying to slow myself down!
You are quite right about tension and i do find Guitarist make quite a few bad calls but probably no more than any other monthly mag. What they mean't to say is that the feel is different. The longer the string (tailpiece to anchor to tuning peg) the harder it is to deflect when bent or pushed down to the fret or indeed the higher or lower your bridge and break over angle is has a feel deflection affect, this can easily be mistaken for a higher tension if you mis-understand the meaning of the word. The Tension itself, as you rightly say, remains the same. Try it out if you string your high and low string on any Stratocaster with exactly the same make and gauge string you will feel the difference.
I didn't read the article but I agree with your analysis.... One thing you did not mention was the difference in spring tension in the tremolo cavity. A floating tremolo always feels softer or slinkier during bends because when you bend a string the tremolo pulls up stretching the springs and loosening tension on the strings not being bent. Im not sure how Hendrix set his tremolo up wheather it was floating or he preferred it to sit flat on the body.
You are, of course, correct. I winced when I read the same article! Just to add a few minor points to also consider... The bass strings are wrapped. This means that the core alone carries the tension force. As different string companies have different ratios between the core and winding wires, their strings may have differing tensions for the same gauge string. The break angle over the nut (and the bridge with tunomatic types) also changes feel - or "slinkiness" of the strings. You can check this yourself by simply removing a string tree on your Strat. I suspect this must be that a sharper break angle reduces the ease with which the extra lengths can stretch when bending strings. Great video - thank you.
Ah ok. I understand you now, but have to disagree. Tension is determined by scale length and string gauge only. What varies with a differing total string length is the relative stiffness. A longer total length makes the strings feel softer but would require greater sideways movement to achieve the same pitch bend. It's been many many years since I played a Jazzmaster and I can't honestly say how if felt. In theory it should feel "slinkier". How much so is debatable but I'd guess not much. Don't forget that the inspiration of this video was Guitarist magazine stating that a reverse headstock would make the low E stiffer. Susan disputes that assertion and I agree with her. Ultimately, I hope we all play guitars we enjoy playing.
Quite interesting. From physics class, long time ago, and I won't look it up, I remember a formula for pitch on string instruments that contained mass of the string and tension. So what counts is the mass of the string between the nut and the bridge. Which is of course more on the Strat than on the May-guitar. However, considering the elasticity, one could argue that in bending some extra mass comes between the nut and the bridge, giving a complex interplay between mass, tension and pitch. All in all I think your point is very valid. Confirming the subtleness you mentioned, I'd like to broig to attention Hendrix's long fingers, which might compensate for the cutaway issue, but even more gave an above-average reach and een more important, greater leverage (strength) for bending his strings (albeit thin/light banjo strings). These properties might have had a less subtle effect.
The length of the string matters past the nut because the string slides over the nut. Its not locked as with a floydrose..the shorter the string past the nut the quicker the bend. Yu are correct. Exactly why in play lefty strat righty
I am amazed that two self-proclaimed experts can take issue with Susan's exposition and attempt to refute it without using one essential term ..."COMPLIANCE". Google it ... research it .... "COMPLIANCE" . That's what this issue is all about ..."COMPLIANCE".
A violin has its string tension and overall playability regulated by adjusting the tightness of the tailpiece, at the same pitch and scale length, a violin can be easily adjusted to have higher or lower tension by adjusting what happens on "the other side" of the bridge, essentially the same thing as the other side of the nut. Therefore these slight changes on the above the nut string length and tension, coupled with the fact they are changed in opposite from low to high, means a feel change is very well possible. So, maybe reading a bit about the importance of a tailpiece and it's adjustment and help you understand what changes between the nut and tuner can do. As a left handed guitarist who has played converted as well as naturally left handed strats, I will attest to a difference in string "feel." Also hard tail and tremolo guitars have a different feel at the same pitch as well as through the body tele's and through the bridge tele's, at the same pitch and scale length, so there is some voodoo at work here.
Exactly, the length of the string will give it more spring, you're demonstration with the rope is perfect. Being Left handed I have 5 strat type guitars, some builds are with right hand necks, and having the short upper strings, makes them feel tight. The only part I don't understand is i have 1 strat that feels just right with 12's on it (std tuning) and all the others are too tight, so they're strung with 11's... Same floating bridge, some with 4 springs, some with 3 and the claw all the way in... this shall remain a mystery.
Electronics tech and guitarist by trade. I'm also a strat lover and own a Hendrix strat. There are generally only three dynamics that affect the timbre (or tone) of an electric guitar... the scale length, the pickup reactance, and to a lesser degree, the string gauge/tuning. In this discussion, you're forgetting that the poll pieces for the pickups are set to the height for the intended strings of a righty configuration. When Hendrix flipped and restrung his guitar, he didn't rotate the pickups. If you compare the Hendrix guitar closely to a regular righty strat, you'll see they rotated the pole pieces like Hendrix' setup, and when you combine this with tuning down a step as Hendrix did, you're able to more closely approximate the Hendrix sound. The reversed pups make a marked difference.
Very funny and well thought out, I enjoyed watching that rant. Be sure to take your blood pressure meds I look forward to hearing more from you. It all made perfect sense though once it was explained. Mick, I do think she was fair, she just stated the writer was wrong on that point and proved her point. I don't think she was insulting in any way, she just pointed out they had not properly thought out the theory he was pointing out. A lesson here for all. we can all be wrong and learn something new everyday.
A minor nit-pic, when you did the demo/explanation with your 12m cord (for all intent and purpose) it didn't "stretch" at all regardless of the length between your hands ( only a few inches) or the 12m from your hands to the anchor point. The long cord gave the impression of "stretch" when in fact you were only taking out the slack of the 12m. As you rocked to and fro pulling the cord it came to actual "scale" length. When we put on a new set of strings there is a great amount of slack until we get the typical three/four wraps around the tuner peg, Once the slack is taking up the strings come to pitch quite quickly. Then fine tuning will actually stretch (elongate) the wire. The scale length will effectively "cut" the wire off at the nut and bridge piece. so in practice the elongated string is still the same length but up to pitch.
she is so spot on. a longer string has to be pulled further to reach the same tonal tension between the bridge and the nut. because of this the string will feel slinkier or stretchy when bending due to the string having to be bent further on the neck to reach the required note. its really just that simple. love your work susan gardner. your explanations are really helpful. keep it up girl.
Yes ma'am, I agree with you 100%. I own the hendrix stratocaster and in my opinion it is like you said. Treble strings feel slightly stiffer and bass strings fell slightly slacker. Although mine has hendrix voodoo child fender strings that have a custom gauge. Most are lighter other than the 10. Tuned to e flat and the lighter gauge strings give it a spongey feel. I have been experimenting with the spring tremolo tension to find a sweet spot. I also need a proper setup. I don't own a regular strat so I couldn't tell you exactly how noticeable it is but I think a seasoned guitarist would notice a slight difference between the two. Hope the feedback further proves your theory. Thanks for the information. Cheers 🍻
Thank you!! Great explanation of this headstock phenomenon. I have the Hendrix Voodoo strat and I came to the same exact conclusion as you. I've heard guitar builders give the same and wrong information about string tension in regards to guitars with reverse headstocks. I also feel that tension is related to the breaking angle of the string path. For example; angled headstocks or the angle that you adjust and set your bridge stop tailpiece. Great video!!
Another thing that makes the tribute stratcaster different from the original was the radius of the neck. Jimi's from the 60s was 7.25 inch radius. The tribute is 9 inch radius. If anyone's played a 7 1/4 neck, you have to raise the string or they will not allow you to bend a tremble string without it dying out......
Strats, Les Pauls, 335s, 175s, Brian Mays and boutique guitars - it doesn't matter - each model and each individual guitar feels more or less different to a degree - none are exempt. This is why and how some guitars do seem to have magical qualities and some seem to be just fancy wooden slabs or boxes with strings on them. The very woods themselves cause this to be a fact. Add to that all the other variables and it becomes a madman's nightmare, especially a Strat with all its variables of inline tuners, spring tension on the whammy bar, through body hard tails, neck relief, variables of nut and bridge height, rosewood or maple fingerboard, neck thickness, width and radius, string trees or not, angle of the headstock to fingerboard, angle of neck to body...and probably fret wire itself also fits in there. The angle of the string as it goes over the bridge and over the nut also make a difference - which is why Bonamassa did the top wrap on the stop tailpiece - it changes the angle of the string over the bridge and also adds the amount of mass the string itself has contact with - which considerably increases sustain. Bonamassa didn't invent it. Duane Allman was doing it in the late 60s (and so was I in 1972). Compare the early Les Paul Jrs with the wrap around bridge to those with a stop tailpiece and the tension is even more different (which is where I stumbled onto it). Now figure string angle at the nut into a Strat having a reverse headstock. The high E string has the angle of the bass string on a standard Strat headstock and the low End string has the angle of the high E string on a standard Strat headstock. It's a virtual maniac's nightmare of variabilities determining all of this - but it's there and it's real and to not consider it is to miss the entire point. Here's a point to consider that puts the 'tension issue' into a realistically functional perspective. Instead of a comparatively tiny guitar string, imagine a 2 inch (approx. 5 centimeters) steel cable that's 100 feet (approx. 30.5 meters) long and another of the same diameter but only half the length. Now - imagine tightening them both to achieve the same pitch when plucked by an enormous giant pick. The question to ask is if they both require the same force/tension to get them to the exact same pitch. What's necessary to keep in mind here is that, not being the same length, they don't share the same weight/mass - which means each requires a considerably different amount of force/tension to get them to the same pitch. Back to the string length on the 1st and 6th strings of a Strat - the very same issues apply (no matter where the nut is located). That said however, if there are locking tuners, the string lengths being the same once the tuners are locked, does seem to take the extra string length out of the equation - but, initially, does apply in getting the string up to tuning range (I know, this does seem to be a wild card variable). But, all other variables being ideally the same, considering the example of getting the different length cables up to pitch, the longer, heavier one most probably requires more force to hold it at the same pitch as the shorter one. DISCLAIMER: I've been wrong before and could be with this. It can be felt in the strings and, without a doubt, it definitely is 'force/tension' - not just 'it feels like it' or some mystical, voodoo thing or superstition that can't be factually explained. A genuine professional physicist or genuine professional construction engineer could answer this confusing question instantly. No contest - just my experience and observation - just sayin'...
Susan, I watched your excellent presentation a few years ago and am going to send the link to a believer in the very belief you have corrected. I would like to say thank you for your work in demonstrating thoroughly, scientifically and eloquently.
The tension has nothing to do with the nut but the length of the string from the tuner to the bridge. The longer the string the more the tension is required to bring it to pitch that is why Jimi using heavier gauge strings used the drop tuning to lessen the tension. The more tension, the more strength needed to bend string or push down to fret board.
All things being equal, while locking the nut does not change the tension used to create the pitch of the string -- the locked string will be harder to bend since there is less mass [of the shorter string] to hold the pitch, increasing the inertia required to displace the position of the string transversely to bend .... the increase in inertia is considered [by feel] as greater tension.
Yes Susan, you´re completely right. Fender really made a fake-lefthand guitar which seems to be a nightmare to Jimi fans and guitarists as well. Fender also obviously forgot, that Jimi mostly played CBS Fenders with no skunkstripe. There was also no trussrod screw in the headstock.
I totally agree with you. What I think is missing in you otherwise profound analysis is travel of string. And I guess that is what is confusing some. By travel of string I mean the length of string you have to wind onto the peg to achieve a specific tension. The greater the overall length of the string, the more often you have to turn your tuner to get to lets say E. Now I suspect that this fact tricks people into believing they are creating a higher tension with a longer string.
Thank you for this video. As an engineer I had basic physics in school that caused me to just shake my had when I heard people talk about how in-line tuners resulted in different tension than the 3-on-a-side tuners. Same scale length had to have the same tension regardless of how far the tuner is from the nut. To be honest I had never considered the stretchiness component but it makes perfect sense - provided you don't have a locking nut. People were probably just confusing tension and stretchiness. If you can bend a string easier it sure "seems" like the tension is less.
***** Explain how the extra string length creates more tension. Wouldn't that mean that on a Les Paul, the high and low E have much MORE tension than the D and G string. It does not feel that way to me.
***** Yes, correct, I accidentally said it backwards. Let me reword my question correctly. Wouldn't that mean that on a Les Paul the high and low E string would have much LESS tension than the other strings? It does not seem that way to me. the A and B string seem to have less tension.
***** I guess that makes sense because longer scale guitars have higher string tension. I may actually try that next time I change strings just so I can feel it.
While the string tension between the nut and the bridge stays the same, the break angle of the string does affect the tension above the nut (likewise if top-wrapping v. normal on a Gibson style bridge). This change in tension, along with the amount of available string above the nut, will both affect things like the attack and the ease of string bending. Tl;dr tension does change on some parts of the string and it does have an effect.
This is simple physics... if you shorten a string, it takes less tension to tune it to pitch. Grab ANY short scale guitar and dispute what I just typed.. What the poster is ignoring about locking nuts is that once you lock the nut, any of the slack storage behind the nut is eliminated. I will post the formula later if someone doubts the veracity of what I am stating.
I found this fascinating, both Susan's explanation, and Neville's replies. And after pondering this for an hour, I think I've figured out the whole point of confusion and why this is debated so much. The tension is not the same across the length of the string. I think the max tension is at the 2 ends of the string, and min tension is in the middle. So that the longer string has more tension on the tuning peg, but at the nut it is less and winds up being the same as with the shorter but less tight string. The tension at the nut is the same, but the string has been stretched more, so it bends less.
Well, what bothers me is that there's so much marketing going on in the so called expert magazines - not only in guitar magazines, but also in bicycle magazines to give an othe example. They're not beeing realy critical and are prone to subjectivity like any other customer is. For example: the way Neville refers to the info on the Fender website. Fender first of all want to sell guitars and some marketing-person just comes up with a text which is not necessarily wrong, but it had the purpose to sell, and not to inform you 100% correct. So don't believe every word the write or at least be critical about it. Also: magazines have to be filled with words every month. I personally encourage that people like Susan take the time and do the effort to really question what is written in magazines, on commercial websites, ... and try to look at it in an objective way.
nut to bridge is the scale lenght. excess string beyond the nut doesnt matter except maybe if you dive bomb the trem. so maybe strings go out of tune differntly than a rh guitar. the pickup angle might well make a difference, except that Jimi Hendrix played almost exclusively on the neck pickup. really, its a cool looking strat, but its still just a strat except for the layout. i like the LH trem on an RH guitar though, but the SRV strat has that too. anyway, great video. rock on. Thanks for explaining the concepts ☺
You are absolutely right about this, whats written in that magazine is totally wrong, who ever written that must go back and do hes/her homework about guitars. There is not alot of ppl that is really thinking about this kinda stuff, so maybe just those who know about this will know that whats written is actually wrong.. great video and very interesting. A guitar is not just a guitar, its ALOT of theory to :D
Thanks for a well thought out explanation on the difference that the string length has on the tension of the strings with the same tuning.I use both a Gretsch & a Strat alot & can feel the difference in the tension when it comes to bending..
As a studied luthier and guitar tech, I'll put in my two cents worth. Your logic concerning tension is correct in part - but you're simply applying it incorrectly. You can't compare a guitar with a locking nut to one with a floating nut (or zero fret) in this way. A locking nut (or capo) actually does shorten/change the string length. A floating nut does not. Using your own example, if I were to cut a small groove into a pencil and place it under your string (at literally any point), you would still be able to stretch it the same amount. Tension would not be changed at all. However, If I were to tie the string off at the same point as pencil, then you're logic would be absolutely correct. With a floating nut, even the break angle of the string behind the nut changes things up quite a bit. This is the reason for the string tree under b and e strings and also the difference in preferences of headstock angles by different manufacturers. For instance, if I were to raise the previously placed pencil under your lengthy string (not locked) a considerable amount, I would obviously be taking up slack and increasing tension. But according to your own logic, this would not be the case because you're thinking locking nut instead of a floating nut. Correct logic is to compare a locking nut the "tuning key" to which the string is attached - not to the floating nut. Sorry!
Ok, Im left handed and it's not all black & white as it seems..It's not about making it easy to bend strings. It's about feeling, strings are easy to bend whatever tension they are for some people (SRV).. Hendrix did indeed use a right handed Strat reverse strung, even though LH models were around in the 60's not many but it was quite easy to locate one. Yes the so called Hendrix tribute model Strat and the Guitatist magazine article is all very misleading. A point to note that wasn't mentioned in this video was the intonation and position of the bridge saddles on the Stratocaster Jimi played. Only a mention of the bridge PU angle, which truth be known did have a notable effect on the sound of certain passages in Jimi's playing. Hendrix didn't have a guitar tech to change the position of the bridge saddles and he didn't need one because even though the angle of the saddles was in reverse he just got around the different harmonics by being a total wizzard with his magic fingers. He may have had some work done on the Strats intonation and moved the saddles by the time of Band Of Gipsy's and then .... well everyone knows the story about Eric Clapton buying a left handed Strat to give to Hendrix but it was too late .. Jimi never saw it ~ Love & Peace
Thanks for bringing clarity to this question. I have thought about it from time to time, and I started thinking about it again when I saw the new Hendrix model was released. I believe your explanation settles it for me.
there is a point I'd like to make. ''tension'' isn't a word I've seen used in Physics. I will use ''force''. It would require greater force to tune a 100 metre cable to pitch than a 1 metre cable. The force required to pull a 1km cable to pitch would snap a guitar neck into splinters, if the string was capable of staying in one piece. Therefore, the longer the string, the greater the force required to pull that string to pitch. Perhaps 'tension' is loosely being used as a replacement for force in this example.
Lord Raleigh (AKA William Strutt) wrote two volumes on the theory of sound around 1890. I read them. The short story is that you are right. What matters is the distance between the bridge and the nut. After that it's all frets. What tension (force) does is raise or lower the pitch, let us say of the lowest note. Then you tune the guitar to that note Fret away. So it does not matter what note (tension) you tune the lowest note. It will be a correct relative scale. Now reality intervenes. We have to play with other people. So we have to standardize pitches and we get A = 440 Hz (I think). And now we are in the business of overtones. A very loose string sounds awful even were the pitch correct. So we tune the guitar so all the pitches sound good, and art creeps in on top on physics. Just my bag of chips.
To get the meter long headstock ... use the tuner holes on a regular headstock to bolt another board to and then have a new headstock at the end of that board to put the tuners in. You'll have to knot together two strings to get a long enough wire. I'll be curious how that extra string length changes the sustain. Compare a plinky mandolin where half the string is beyond the bridge to a headless steinberger sustain.
I liked what you said and the way you said it. Personally, I think if Fender release a "Jimi strat", it should bethat - the same as his (albeit left or right handed) and not make the headstock "normal". Also with the controls - for me (and I would suggest for Jimi) the pickup switch gets in the way of unrestrained strumming. The overall result (again to me) is a bit silly, and has a similar authenticity to Jimi fridge magnets.
Hendrix used light strings on his strat i.e. 8's, and even used banjo strings, so maybe that is why he did it. However I would say that a distance of a few inches doesn't really matter all. What the strings are made of can compensate for that. Nowadays you can get equal tension strings, so that would totally obviate the effect.
I've played Standard right hand Strats for over 20 years...and have now had one of these Hendrix Strats for a year...without a doubt (all psychics aside) the bass string has less tension and the treble string feels tighter. Nice observation and the magazine is wrong. I'm also a guitar maker and have written articles for Acoustic Guitar mag and The Fretboard Journal. Hope the mag does an editorial correction/update in their follow up issue ;-) Thanks for posting the video
The other phenomena not mentioned herein, which I've come to realize over 45 years of playing guitar, is the "resonance" created between the strings and the neck is a result of the "tension" in that system. As you increase tension in the truss rod you lose resonance. When I set up a neck on a guitar I now try to find that sweet spot where the resonance is best. As we see, the tension in the bass string and the treble string on the Hendrix Strat is altered from the original headstock therefore the resonance will also be altered. There is now more wood under the treble string and less under the bass string thereby effecting the resonance greatly. The bass string will have less down pressure over the nut and the treble string will have more down pressure. I believe the resonance coupled with the change in tension in all the strings is represented in a different "feel" for the player. It is noteworthy that Hendrix, I am told, used a lower gauge 3rd string than in a typical set of nine gauge strings. He must have felt the shortening in the length of the G string made it "stiffer" or "tighter" and he sought to reduce that effect with a softer string.
Lets look at a hypethetical situation. You have 2 guitars. One guitar has a stardard Gibson bridge but with a Bigsby for the tail stop.. The second guitar has the exact same strings tuned exactly the same as the first guitar only that the Bigsby is 10 feet further away from the bridge more then the first guitar. The tension of the strings will be identical on each guitar along with the identical tuning. On the first guitar you will need to pull on the Bigsby tremelo bar a certain amount to get the strings to move up lets say one whole note. But on the second guitar you will need to pull on the Bigsby tremolo bar alot more to get the same pitch effect as the first guitar. Is that not true?
Thanks so much for your very interesting post Susan, for a guy who actually wrote that article for the magazine ( mr Martin)to reply to your post in such a way as to try and save his , or perhaps the magazines credibility and by the sound of it his pride is just making me wonder why he can't just say Susan you are right, we made a mistake, and I apologise for this, ( the propagation of misinformation) . Thanks again Susan. We all need more people like you Brilliant.
I do not debate what the nice Lady says, BUT, String tension IS also be affected by 'NECK RELIEF' (WHICH IS SET BY ADJUSTING THE TRUSS ROD), the distance between the top of the fret @ the 7TH & 9TH Frets and the bottom of the string.I play GIBSON guitars and I set my Les Paul's & 'SG' Neck Relief @ around .004"-.007" & the strings have a nice tight feel, crisp sound. However, if I set the RELIEF @ .012" the strings start to get 'Mushy' and it will only get worse from there @ .025"@ 7TH Fret (.026"@ 9TH Fret) the guitar strings have a horrible 'FEEL' and is miserable sounding. This happens with the strings at the right 'PITCH' and a TUNER will confirm that the guitar is in tune.NOW, BRING ON THE HATE, I stand BY WHAT I SAY...try it on your guitar, if you know how (ITS NOT DIFFICULT and you do not even need a NOTCHED STRAIGHT EDGE, but it will help with the measurements)and you too will see that it is possible to have less tension at the right pitch and it is due to 'NECK RELIEF', not, as the article ridiculously states, the tuners being in different places.
Susan, great video. They got it backwards. Just shows you that just because it's in a magazine, that doesn't mean they know what they're talking about. I play lefty and I've been playing Hendrix since 1979 when I was 16. I own several lefty and righty-strung-lefty strats. The difference is negligible. Each guitar sounds unique, but it's not because of the string length at the nut or the tilt of the pickup. People who claim that it's the key to Jimi's tone are full of BS.
The relationship between string tension and string length is not so easily explained. The tension on the length of string between the nut and bridge must always be the same to get the same frequency of vibration. The longer string will stretch more when tuning but will not feel slinkier once at the same pitch. If it stretched more easily it would not be at the same pitch. The most important aspect of the left-handed guitar is that the pickup pole pieces are different lengths and reversed under the strings so that the tone and relative volumes of each string are different then on a right handed guitar.
Or just read this if lazy: The string tension (stress) is only determined by 2 things: The target note (e.g. e'/e4), and the thickness of the string (e.g. .009). Always remember kids: stress is force over area. The length of the string is completely irrelevant. There is no need to discuss orientation of headstock or scale lengths. If you want to tune a 12 meter long .009 string to an e'/e4 you'll get the same tension as a 50cm long .009 string tuned to e'/e4.
I don't get why at first we were talking about locking nuts, where the total length would be irrelevant, then going on about the normal non-locking nut where the total string length even after the nut actually does affect something?
+Alex Henry Manfredi The point is that the locking nut, if set up correctly, doesn't affect the tension when you lock it - the pitch doesn't change. It shows that the string beyond the nut has no effect on the tension. The only effect comes when you bend the string, as string is drawn through the nut.
Hi Susan, I believe you're absolutely right and that the Guitarist is utterly wrong... I didn't read the article as I already have too many hobbies to accumulate more paper on the shelves. I buy the Guitarist now and then when something calls my atention on the cover. Other magazines I buy regularly are Hi-Fi World; Hi-Fi News, Märklin Magazin; Miba and The Railway Modeller. I've been accumulating Magazines since the sixties and believe it or not I frequently look for articles I read some 50 or more years ago. Like, for instance an article in Märklin Magazin dated August 1966 about the possible incorporation of a railway line in the Bridge over the Tagus that exists in Lisbon.There is a tension problem there too but based on the oposite principle . If you increase the weight on the trays of a suspended bridge the trays or the suspension cables won't be more stressed but you will put additional tension on the pilars. The same if you compare a cross bow and a long bow the tension is transferred to the stiffest element because the string tend to stretch and maintain its tension almost the same. That is why a cross bow sends its arrow further than a long bow and why given the same target the balistic curve of the long bow's arrow is more noticeable than the trajectory of the cross-bow's bolt. its the tension on the two different bows that send the arrows bolting away and not the tension in the strings themselves. A longer bow dissipates tension energy better than a shorter stiffer arm of a cross-bow that tends to accumulate energy up to the moment it is released. So if you want to increase the pitch you'll put more tension on the strings but it is the arm and head of the guitar that will suffer. If you keep the pitch the tension must be the same in spite of the longer or shorter length length of the string. I'm a lawyer not a cientist but no matter of the type of knowledge you prefer (cientific or humanistic) one thing people need to learn is to think strictly and clearly, Otherwise logic stinks of stilton but you dare not be guided by the smell, when the object of your analysis is something you want to eat!
I am a lefty with a right handed strat set up as Jimmi used to have it. It feels slightly different but you would have to be playing left and right handed guitars for some time to notice the difference and I don't know of any right handed guitarists who actively have left handed guitars set up to play right handed the way Jimmi had it. The only noticeable difference is the sound and as you rightly said, thats due to the bridge pickup. You are 100% correct. I was just wondering if the size of the house and using a heavier cord at 15 mtr length plus the addition of a larger 13.5 mtr headstock and tuned down would make me play like Jimmi Hendrix. :)
She says "if you had a locking nut, you could cut the strings and the note and tension would be the same" She's right, but what she doesn't understand is you had to tune the string before you locked the nut and a longer string will have to be tensioned more to get it to the same note than a shorter string. There are "string tension guides " all over the internet with variable lengths, many by the makers of strings themselves, and they predict the tension required! Later she says: "Imagine you have a guitar with a 12 meter long headstock but the same 25.5" scale. " She implies that the longer string will be more "stretchy". What she forgets is how much tension she would have to put on the 12 meter long string to get it to pitch! A LOT! It won't work because the string is too long to ever get to pitch and will break.
Hi...I like your comment, so I had to mention that Jimi wound the low E string on the furthest winder in reverse to the other strings?...because it kept popping off the nut!!!...I've made a copy of Jimi's guitar and I had to do the same!...the hardest part about playing is the volume control makes you play under and up to avoid the things in the way!....in fact I removed the first volume control!!!....I also saw him playing before he was seen on Top of the Pops!...late 1960's ..in Bromley, Kent...and he had a real problem with tuning?...and 3 Marshall amps buzzing like hell!...because they were linked together through the Inputs causing a EARTH loop!!!.....hahaha...great fun but bloody loud!!!......remembering The WHO and Small faces were the only bands using feedback at the time!...so it was a real FIRST for me seeing Jimi.....d;-)
Hi Susan, I think personally that you might miss the point of it. You talk about the locking nuts (on the market) and you forget the main thing about it. Before locking a locking nut, you have to bring the 6 strings to their pitches and tensions. Then you lock them in place right ? From that moment, you can play the guitar as if there was no nut locking device. But ! The 6 individual tensions are still there ! Now, it's true to say that it takes more force to raise a sting to pitch if it is longer. Take as an example the Les Paul versus the Strat. One has 24,75 inch of scale and the other one has 25,5 inch. The difference between the two is 0,75 inch. If you own both of these guitars, you will learn, for example, that a Les Paul can use a set of 0,010 strings and a Strat can use a set of 0,009. Why ? Because it's the way to go if you want to feel the same tensions (relative to the 2 scales) on both of the guitars. You will be able to put the same efforts to those bends and vibratos on both. Does it make sense ? Also, we have to distinguish the pitch notes from the tensions. Playing a note on the fretboard doesn't change the tension in the string, only its length (between the bridge and the fret). We would need extremely strong hands to hold a string to its tension for any note.
locking nuts are basically invention of Floyd D. Rose , result of as we all know by now floyd rose tremolo system, they aren't on the market when Hendrix was living , if I might not be mistaken they came at 1977. app. 9 or 10 years after jimi passed away. Ok here is the sum up , even though it was a standart stratocaster, jimi's guitar was behaving like a baritone guitar on base notes and behaving like a short scale on treble side, thats all , his pickups was not affecting his sound as much as u think , because he was using either 50's or 60's pickups and they were all hot pickups on either base magnet or treble as like p90's .
For determining the pitch of a string only three things are needed: the tension of the string, its length and its weight. The longher the string the lower the pitch, the more the tension the higher the pitch and the higher the weight the lower the pitch. As such using the same strings (same weight per inch), the stratocaster will require more tension to have the same pitch of a Les Paul because its strings are longer in between the nut and the bridge saddles. The only things that a longer string after the nut will change (if you don't have a locking nut) is the feeling of bendings and the tuning stability. The tension of the strings of two guitar tuned the same, with the same scale and same strings but with different headstock will always be the same no matter how long the string is after the nut. And this is why manufacturers of strings can have a tension table for their strings that doesn't account for the model of your guitar but only for its scale lenght. On a guitar with the longer headstock you will only need to turn the tuning key more times because with a longer string after the nut you will need more turns to obtain the same tension. That because you have to bring up to tension more string than if the string was shorter. For the same reason a longer headstock will also affect bendings (if the string slides on the nut) because to obtain the same tension (and so the same pitch) on the string you will need to bend more but with less effort (the overrall effort is the same). A guitar with shorter headstock may give you a tighter feel than a guitar with a longer headstock because you will have to put more effort to bend but you will also have to bend less to obtain the same pitch. To prove that, you can make an experiment a little more accurate than the one she makes in the video: since to break a cotton thread you will always need the same tension, take two different length thread from the same spool (like one long 10" and the other 30ft) and try to break them. You will se that the shorter one stretches less than the longer one before breaking. You reached the same tension when the two strings break but you have pulled more wire on the longer string to get the same result.
Nothing she says contradicts your points about the locking nut, 10s on a LP being like 9s on a strat, or the relationship between pitch and tension. You are leaving something out. First, we have to make a distinction between tension and perceived resistance to bending. Perceived resistance to bending has to be further split between the distance you bend to get a certain pitch, and the force you need to move a string a certain distance. You could use the word "tension" to refer to resistance to bending, but then you'd have ambiguity in several ways. When you lock a floyd, the feel of bending changes cause you don't have string feeding through the nut. Bending the string a certain distance takes more force, but the pitch will increase faster per distance. With the nut unlocked, it will be easier to bend a string a certain distance, but the pitch will not increase as much for a set distance of bend. More string beyond the scale length gives more feed though and makes it feel "slinkier". But, the increased distance you need to bend to get a certain note could mean having to bend other strings along with the one you are playing. In that way, it is subject which way is easier. TL;DR you have to account for feed through and only talk about one variable at a time.
Although your reasoning is great I believe you may be wrong. I have an alternative theory base on empirical fact. Your reasoning is perfectly done and you may be right if you consider only the sense of touch and not the sense of hearing. Your theory misses a crucial point, I'll try to explain: On a right-handed strat (high E string) if you want to rise the pitch (let's say) a full tone, you need to stretch the 65 cm of the scale lenght plus the 15 cm that go from the nut to the tuner. That means that even when the string is initially softer you need to bend further to get to the full tone bending and that's what makes it harder to bend. You're not stretching 65cm of string, you're stretching 80 cm. Those extra 15 cm are preventing you from reaching your desired pitch. So, yes you're right, the string is easier to strectch but the problem is that you are not reaching your desired note, you have to push harder, you are wasting energy in stretching 15 cms of string that have no direct effect on the pitch. A substantial amount of metallic material from the string at the side of the headstock crosses the nut and is now at the fretboard side making the pitch lower and you have to push more and more to compensate. Conclusion: bending notes is harder on non-reverse headstocks. I have both strats, same string gauges. With the reverse headstock strat, bending the high string at fret 12 I can reach two full tones. With the normal headstock I can only bend one and a half tones. The empirical test seems to prove my string theory. In fact I'm trying to justify with a theory what is a reality empirically proven with my two strat necks. It may not be perfect but I hope it helps to look at the subject more deeply.
You nailed it and I've said the same for a long time. All of my electrics have locking nuts and when the nuts are not locked the difference in feel between the normal and reversed head stocks high E strings is quite noticeable.
When you bend a string on a locking nut - what is past the nut has no effect and all the stretching will occur before the nut (whatever the string length is). But - if you have ten foot of string the other side of the nut that slides and can stretch. It wont affect tone as the nut will always be in the same place - but it will be easier to stretch and play a little different. Either way certainly wont make you into Hendrix. The pickup will make a fair difference in tone. I always thought the treble on the high E on my strats was too high and Hendrix had the pickup on the high E in a better place - treble rolled off a little warmer.
Here's some info for you. I had a Guild polara with 24 3/4" scale. And a Epiphone es339 with the same 24 3/4" scale. With each guitar strung with identical slinky 9-42 strings, the Guild was much 'stiffer' feeling. The headstock layout was the same. But the Guild had the stop tail much farther from its bridge compared to the Epiphone. I put 8-38 strings on the Guild and it felt perfect. The Epiphone still has 9-42 slinkys as they feel perfect! The guitar in the mag you have would be perfect if you like Jimi's tone. But you need to use the string gauges he used. 10 13 15 26 32 38 Those D A E strings being so light give the 'jangly' sound his lower strings had. Cheers!
I've had the "stiff feel" complaint from many customers before. And you're absolutely right. Break angle DOES affect feel, absolutely. Reducing the break angle makes a very noticeable difference and is a hugely overlooked aspect of setting up a guitar, mostly because people think that since it doesn't change tension, it's impossible for it to change feel. Just gotta use your hand, and you know -- don't need any science to prove that!
Very interesting : i did not know this subtle point and now i understand a little more about the design of the Strat. Just to clarify a technical point. There are only 3 physical properties related to the pitch (i.e. the frequency) of the sound (and not 4 as you say) : 1) the unit weight (i.e. the weight per length unit), 2) the length and 3) the tension. This is why both the string diameter and the material (say steel or nylon) affect only one single parameter : the unit weight.
If you look at the equations for string vibrations you could see that it is not possible to get the same frequency with out the right tension with the same linear density (same guitar strings). Also, the only thing that matters is the string between the nut and bridge.
The biggest thing they missed is the resonance difference of the guitar body being flipped because the Low-E string is now over the hollow part of the body. along with the staggered pickups being reversed is what made a distinct sound. The neck makes no difference. I own the model they displayed in this magazine AND the 1997 version that's basically a left handed guitar strung right and there's quite a bit of difference.
I have one of those 1997's Hendrix strat too, but not the newer version which is normal except for the neck and pickups being reversed. Having the wiggle bar on the top of the bridge seems better too. Even though it's a poly finish, Jimi liked his two 1968's better than his older strats finished in nitro, and he could afford anything. When you capo up the neck, that changes the string behind the "nut" (capo), but that doesn't seem to effect the feel as much as the change in scale length. As I move it up the neck, the strings are stiffer, but easier to bend, because they get to pitch quicker. I'm probably wrong in my twisted mind. I like the tuners on the bottom, because they are easier to get to. It seems like Leo Fender should have put them on the bottom from the beginning. Why DID he put them on the top, if it doesn't effect feel...?
Have you had the scratch plate off a strat? The cut-outs for the pick-ups are the same no matter which way you string the guitar and the only other "hollow" is for the pots and switch which are far enough from the strings that which string is nearest shouldn't affect the resonance. (This is without going into the argument on "Tone Woods" and "Hollows" affecting the resonance of an electric guitar where the pick-ups are support on springs and not directly attached to the body)
Derek Gibson As ignorant as your comment I'm forced to ask *Have you ever seen a Strat with the pickguard removed!? You proved nothing outside of the painfully obvious fact you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I would normally put the math and physics forward with explanation, but it is sadly apparent you wouldn't understand.
Check out video ruclips.net/video/Ew-olt0ZXuA/видео.html. Pause at 1:27 and point out how the hollow below the high E string is different to the hollow below the low E? The hollow where the controls are is almost non existent when the controls and wiring are in place. Now drag out your physics and prove that the body resonates differently depending on where the strings are. While you're at it prove that different woods produce a different sound on an electric guitar, no two people agree on the effect of wood on tone. If you thought my comment was ignorant you want to get out in the world more. I thought it was fairly concise and relatively polite, it wasn't me who started the name calling.
I learned something in this video. I don't play the guitar much anymore, but the next time I do, I'm going to tune it to Eb and put a capo on the first fret to bring it back to E. I've always wished for a guitar with less tension but still in E.
There is one more factor that may change pitch to the strings and that is the use of jumbo frets. They tend to wear down wider thus changing the strings length (shorter) thus the note sound higher.
HI Susie - notice Guitarist have been pretty specific in this month's edition - Sept 2017 - page 18, re a Chapman guitar string feel. Your debate has obviously prompted more concern for accuracy. I used to wonder if a longer string - between tuner and tailpiece - would effect the sutain or length of time the string would vibrate - with the assumption it is more elastic. But do more elastic strings vibrate longer or shorter than less elastic strings? I guess the whole issue is about what contributes towards a specific desired sound! Sorry.
+paintboxpash I suspect longer strings have less sustain as the spare string beyond the nut will have a damping effect. I don't know for sure though. There might be an experiment I can do, but the effect could be very small.
I found that very interesting, especially about the Brian May frets lining up with the 2nd fret onwards on a strat enabling him to loosen his strings a bit. I'm tempted to try that on my next build.
The nut on most guitars is not locking. The nut is basically acting like a frictionless pulley. So the reverse headstock article in that magazine is not wrong, if it feels slacker then to us simpls guitar folk it has less tension (hehe)
Is break angle a myth too? So long as the string doesn't slip at the node, ...at the saddle, then surely it doesn't matter what is happening beyond. As long as it is doing its job at stopping slippage. The height will clearly affect the action above the top, but that has nothing to do with the break angle. Any ideas her folks?
When you bend a string, you are bending the entire, unanchored portion of the string. On a locked nut, you are bending the string between bridge and nut (obviously) and the greater the bend, the greater the increase in tension. On a guitar with no locking nut, you bend the string between bridge and nut AND the portion between nut and tuner. As you bend, the string will "slip" across the nut. As it does so, it effectively becomes longer and, therefore, flatter - this means that you need to bend the string more to reach the target pitch. This makes it feel as if the string is "looser". We are talking fractions of an inch here, but they are still perceptible.
you are correct. She's full of it.
True.Yet on a locking nut guitar the harder you bend, the more the trem gives way.
@@josephsmith8673 you're full of it. You are ignorant
@@josephsmith8673 Did you see the part of the video where she effectively said the exact same thing as the person you say is correct? The tension of a string is not the same thing as its elasticity. Don't get me wrong, this video was an unnecessarily long way to say that Guitarist Magazine doesn't know their high-school physics definitions, but you sound pretty silly calling an expert full of it when you didn't even get what they were saying.
The string length and break angle beyond the nut DOES effect the string tension, and the tone. This is true at the bridge as well. Generally speaking, a harder break angle over the nut or at the bridge saddles will be brighter and more tense, but at a certain point, it actually reduces tension as though it's shortening the scale. Too much break at the nut can throw off the intonation on the first few frets. Too little can create muddy overtones and won't hold the string in place. It gets more complicated with different bridge types and headstock designs and the string retainers on Fenders, but as for the Hendrix guitar, it's true. The shorter and harder break angle on the high strings actually reduces tension because the guitar sees it as a shorter scale length.
Re "The string length and break angle beyond the nut DOES effect the string tension", that has been known to be wrong since at least the 1700s (Mersenne). Tension is due to scale length, tuned frequency, and string mass per unit length. You are confusing string tension with string stiffness. The latter is affected by the additional factors you mention.
Some wise man once said: "You can't believe everything you see and hear, now can you?" Now, if you'll excuse me, I must be on my way...
She finally gets to the point on 11:48
The tension of the string of a stringed musical instrument is defined completely by the pitch the string is tuned to, its vibrating length, and its mass (weight) per unit of length. This is a matter of basic physics. But there are all sorts of other quantities and qualities that are said to affect string tension. They do not, but (and this is a big but) some of these may indeed affect the longitudinal stiffness and the overall compliance of the string, and this will affect how tight the string feels to the player.
I've got hundreds of editions of Guitarist from as far back as the mid 80's. When I became a teacher I stopped buying it because there's a lot of questionable rhetoric and misinformation..
Susan, you are correct until it comes to bending the strings which is what I believe they were referring to in the article. When you are bending a string on a non-locking nut instrument, the entire length of the string is being stretched, not just the portion in front of the nut since the string is free to move back and forth within the nut slot. The longer a string is, the more it will stretch with any given amount of force as compared to a shorter length of string with which an equal amount of force is applied to. Since the overall length of a longer string is lengthened more during a bend than on a shorter length of string on an identical scale-length instrument with an identical string gauge tuned to the same pitch, the bend on the longer string will require the player to bend the string further to obtain the pitch they are ascending to. As we all know, the more you bend a string, the more resistance the player feels. This is perceived by the player as higher tension because they are required to bend the string further, and as they do, the string resistance increases. An easy way to test this theory: try bending strings on a Floyd Rose equipped guitar with the nut unlocked vs. after locking it. It is very noticeable. Most people even feel the difference when swapping a modern trem block in a Strat with a vintage style because the holes the strings sit in have a more shallow depth on the vintage block, thus the overall string length is greater.
The word we're missing here is "compliance". The strings on a Gibson 335 style guitar with a trapeze tailpiece will have more compliance than a 335 with a stopbar because the strings are longer overall, has nothing to do with string tension. The trapeze tailpiece guitar will feel squishier. The strings will need to be bent a bit further to affect the same pitch change tho.
This is not the easiest to explain, and I thank you for your patience in explaining it. Something similarly relevant would be the Epiphone Frequensator tailpiece (as seen on some old or limiited Epi Sheratons). I have attempted to figure out and read up on what the split length tailpiece would do, and all I got was "it affects bends". Your explanation on the overall length of a string, the tension, and how it affects the tone and bends helped me to understand it all better. Thank you.
Susan, I love your accent. Thank you for verifying my own explanation and experience of this phenomenon. I've played several vintage Strats for many years and now my favorite guitar is my new left handed Nash Strat. I'm right handed. I honestly believe that the best design for the Fender headstock is the reverse design and I think Fender would have gone with that design if it had not put the tuners awkwardly at the bottom of the headstock. Gibson remedied this situation by putting banjo tuners through the back of the reverse headstock on the Firebird. I always explain that you get to a higher pitch quicker when bending the treble strings because there is less string to bend. I have convinced at least one pro musician to put a reverse headstock neck on his Strat. The other aspect of the reverse headstock that I love is that it makes the bass strings sound bigger. My explanation is there is more beef there now and it sounds bigger. What are your thoughts? Jimi always had the best sounding bass notes, almost piano like. Which, if you look at the piano design, it is the same; longer bass strings and shorter treble strings. Thanks for the video. I assume you are in England somewhere. Let me know.
It could be that what they meant was that the greater the length of string between the nut and tuning peg, the more the string will 'creep' through the nut slot whilst making a string bend. Visualize an absurd case, with a metres-long peg to nut length, bending a string an inch up the fretboard will result in hardly any increase in string tension i.e. a you wont get much of an increase in pitch, since pitch is obviously related to string tension. So, a greater length of string _behind_ the nut will make bending feel less 'responsive', in a similar way that a floating tremelo does. Maybe that's what they were getting at? If it is, they need a proof reader.
Nice one Susan. Very clearly presented. I've been trying to get my head round this for ages and you've hit the nail on the head. I am actually a violin maker and guitarist. Violnmakers get obsessed with 'afterlength' (from the bridge to the tailpiece). Slightly altering this length seems to effect the sound, not for tension reasons as you've shown but for the sympathetic vibrations. Often makers will actually tune this length.
I'm sure there is a difference in the way string bends feel with the head stock reversed, however, the biggest difference between most people bending a string and Hendrix is that he had huge hands and was strong enough to do crazy bends with ease.
Nicely done. I feel for a bit for Guitarist here, though. (I would, I edited it for years). We've written a lot of stuff over 30-ish years, most of which has been useful and relevant. And you're absolutely right to pick up on the errors when they happen. It's a great analysis and explanation of what was written.
However... The inference is that the writer doesn't know what he's talking about and that is a little unfair, even in light of the tension mistake. The point is that a reverse peghead on a Strat feels different to play than the standard way around - thankfully we all agree on that. You don't have to bend the top strings as far to get the equivalent pitch, depending on how the bridge is set of course. I can sort of see why that might end up as being described as less tension (even though it isn't), because in some sense, you get to the note quicker - therefore you might perceive it as 'easier' to bend? Maybe, I don't know - that's speculation.
In any case, I'm sure Nev and Guitarist will be a little red faced at the poor explanation. You do feel like a twit when you drop a clanger, god knows I dropped a few over the years.
So.
1) The pegehad orientation does have an effect on how a Strat feels to play. That bit is not a myth, a Chinese whisper or anything else. You explain it brilliantly in the video.
2) Guitarist got their tension assertions mixed up and explained it back to front.
Are we happy with that?
You should write a column for the mag that deals with guitar myths, Susan - it'd be super popular. Maybe this is your springboard!
+Mick Taylor thanks Mick. I could do an analysis of tonewood properties but I'm not sure I'm that brave :-) I like the idea of guitar based science experiments though.
+Mick Taylor ...and I think we're all friends again :-)
As delightful as this is (and it is!) Unless the plan is to fade out with the credibility of a RUclips "expert" and none of the supporters, then "a red face or two" might not be a sufficient response to being corrected so well on such a fundamental mistake.
String "tension" is pretty fundamental to a guitar... Much like the use of the right words in the right place is to a publication.
In this age of diversity and competing media formats, the magazine might have more to gain from seeing that somebody like Susan has REAL opportunity given to her... As lovely as encouragement is and all, it holds about as much water (especially in your industry) as telling the tea room girl she "might run the place in a few years making a cuppa like this!"
Just say'n...
You know I don't work for Guitarist any more, Ben? Not since 2013. I still contribute from time to time, but I haven't been editor since 2013.
So I'm just commenting as an observer. Interestingly, I mentioned it on That Pedal Show, having picked up a reverse peghead Strat following this debate. I had a number of people (including people who build guitars) get it touch to say I'd got it wrong and that it //does// affect string tension. Okay, okay, we know it doesn't, but that's the perception given that it does affect the feel of the strings so significantly.
Back to the point, I'm just commenting - I don't work there any more. Cheers!
That's the one thing we do all agreed on, and that Susan explains in her video. The longer the total string travel (even if the scale length remains the same) the more 'stretch' the string requires to raise it to the equivalent pitch. People observe this when talking about the difference between a wraparound bridge and a tune o matic/stoptail, and even when stringing a Les Paul over the top of the stoptail, rather than through it (one of the reasons Bonamassa does it). It absolutely does feel different, reverse peghead Strat included.
I think I agree with you. In summary, the tension is exactly the same (so long as one isn't pulling the string across the nut by bending a note, because as soon as you can overcome the friction of the nut when doing so, you introduce slinkiness relative to the amount of string from the nut to the tuner).
Another good way to understand this is string trees. The more your string trees pull down your high strings, the tighter they feel. The closer the tuner is to the nut, the more it pulls your string down, like a string tree. So same effect.
Joel Middaugh wrong, the tension is the same, theydon’t feel tighter.
I have been telling people for years that the longer the string (as in a Fender) the further you have to bend it in order for it to raise in tone one step. It‘s simple physics.
Nope doesn't affect it at all
The nut is nothing more than a permanent capo, but one that allows the string to move relatively freely through it if tension is applied via a vibrato bar or by bending the string. Same thing for the bridge. When you intonate a guitar, you're changing the position of the bridge "capo".
Here's a google search for guitar string tension:
www.google.com/search?q=equations+for+measuring+guitar+string+tension&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
Shorter scale guitars feel "slinkier" because you don't have to bend the string as far to achieve the same increase in pitch.
String tension depends on the distance between its tuner and where it is anchored in the body.
This long string stretches more compared to the short string phenomena is a beautiful experiment to show some of the basic elements of elasticity. This is a subfield of mechanics.
The string itself is the same in both cases. Same material, same cross section. Only the length of the string is different. If you could hang on to the string the same way, even the pulling force would be the same. So what is the difference than?
To understand this phenomenon, you must understand what is the difference between Mechanical Strain and Deformation. It is not easy to understand, but Strain is a very localized (microscopic) quality of the material and the structure, while deformation is a general behavior (macroscopic) of the whole structure. Strain is a function of the material, the cross section of the string and the pulling force. Stretching is a function of the strain and the total length of the string.
Pitch of a plucked string is a function of the cross section (diameter), length of the string (between nuts) and it's tension.
In elasticity there is no stress (tension) without strain and there is no strain without deformation (stretching). The opposite is the also true, without deformation (stretching the string), you cannot increase it's tension, you cannot rise it's pitch.
It's not easy. At the University it takes a while for the students to get familiar with these terms.
Could it be the reviewer has simply copied some marketing bullshit from the Fender press release that came with the review model?
That "Reviewer" is Neville Marten........you may want to check his credentials. He is the man who personally set up Jimi Hendrix's strat before it's sale. He's far from the ordinary reviewer. Mick Taylor (formally of Guitarist, now with Andertons and That Pedal Show) who is beyond well respected has said on this page that Neville Marten has MORE experience and knows MORE about guitars than anyone else he's ever met!
mick Tayler is a duffer, and not respected by me for one. he's as much the problem here as anyone. Yes, Neville Marten is guilty of not thinking it through, or writing well enough or not knowing his audience. all three probably. bit of denial as well.
I think you nailed it. Its probably that simple. Just going through the motions and dont really care if its true or described properly for that matter. Plenty of people who are knowledgeable about guitars have spewed bigger b.s. before.
Hi Susan, don't forget about the string guides. On a USA strat these have little rollers, but the older 50's and 60's design is like a "T" shape. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that the string guides are positioned to even out the tension because of the way 6-in-a-row machine heads are positioned. On a Jem or an RG Ibanez use a bar so that the tension is more fairly shared across the strings (for when the locking nut is loosened). So basically, you're right. But as long as the string guides are being used the tension should effectively even out - kind of like tent pegs holding up a tent.
I watched this video, nearly two years ago, after acquiring the Strat in question in the video. Since then, I've built a mongrel Strat with a lefty neck I had laying around, and with the same pick guard (Stratosphere).
I meant to reply to this video when I first watched it, but felt it wasn't necessary, as Susan is absolutely correct. The tension doesn't change, the string travel does.
My Hendrix Strat has a Major 3rd float. Bought the guitar, brand new, set up that way. I doubt it came from the factory set up with that high a float, but it works, so I leave it alone. The Strat I put together has a min 3rd float on the bridge. I also own two right hand neck Strats with min 3rd bridge floats. The floats do come into play, due to spring/string tension. They are not anchored to the bodies, so whatever bends are made, pulls the bridge toward the nut. I'm nearly half a century old, and have played guitar (seriously) since I was fourteen...you do the math..., so I'm not a newby and own, last count, fourteen guitars... considering another purchase soon. Just an aside, as I'm to the point where I modify certain guitars to my liking, and can put together, and wire up, guitars fairly easily.
From personal experience, having both left and right necked Strats, the actual string tension doesn't change, the travel space does, which makes bending the plain strings different on left and right necks. Even with the floats on my Strat bridges, there is a significant difference. I can bend the plain strings much easier on a right hand neck than on a left hand. I can bend the wound strings easier (low E downward) on a left hand neck than a right hand. This includes the movement of the bridges with the bends. Two are Fender vibratos, two are Callaham...which is only on the one I put together, the Hendrix one is stock. All guitars tuned A440 standard.
lovely explanation and very interesting, you should write an article for Guitarist magazine, paid of course. I am hooked on your channel. The other thing I admire about you is your pace. it enhances the quality of your woodwork as well, took me a loooong time to get that when i make or do anything for myself and im quite old now, still trying to slow myself down!
+jtreg thank you! :-)
Excellent presentation. Scientific and analytical. I learned a lot. Thank you.
You are quite right about tension and i do find Guitarist make quite a few bad calls but probably no more than any other monthly mag. What they mean't to say is that the feel is different. The longer the string (tailpiece to anchor to tuning peg) the harder it is to deflect when bent or pushed down to the fret or indeed the higher or lower your bridge and break over angle is has a feel deflection affect, this can easily be mistaken for a higher tension if you mis-understand the meaning of the word. The Tension itself, as you rightly say, remains the same. Try it out if you string your high and low string on any Stratocaster with exactly the same make and gauge string you will feel the difference.
I didn't read the article but I agree with your analysis.... One thing you did not mention was the difference in spring tension in the tremolo cavity. A floating tremolo always feels softer or slinkier during bends because when you bend a string the tremolo pulls up stretching the springs and loosening tension on the strings not being bent. Im not sure how Hendrix set his tremolo up wheather it was floating or he preferred it to sit flat on the body.
You are, of course, correct. I winced when I read the same article! Just to add a few minor points to also consider... The bass strings are wrapped. This means that the core alone carries the tension force. As different string companies have different ratios between the core and winding wires, their strings may have differing tensions for the same gauge string. The break angle over the nut (and the bridge with tunomatic types) also changes feel - or "slinkiness" of the strings. You can check this yourself by simply removing a string tree on your Strat. I suspect this must be that a sharper break angle reduces the ease with which the extra lengths can stretch when bending strings.
Great video - thank you.
+PeterWasted totally agree Peter, a basic example of difference in string break angle at the bridge would be to compare a Jaguar to a Strat.
Sorry, I don't understand the point you are making. What do you think the string feel difference is between a Jazzmaster and Strat?
Ah ok. I understand you now, but have to disagree. Tension is determined by scale length and string gauge only. What varies with a differing total string length is the relative stiffness. A longer total length makes the strings feel softer but would require greater sideways movement to achieve the same pitch bend. It's been many many years since I played a Jazzmaster and I can't honestly say how if felt. In theory it should feel "slinkier". How much so is debatable but I'd guess not much. Don't forget that the inspiration of this video was Guitarist magazine stating that a reverse headstock would make the low E stiffer. Susan disputes that assertion and I agree with her. Ultimately, I hope we all play guitars we enjoy playing.
Quite interesting. From physics class, long time ago, and I won't look it up, I remember a formula for pitch on string instruments that contained mass of the string and tension. So what counts is the mass of the string between the nut and the bridge. Which is of course more on the Strat than on the May-guitar. However, considering the elasticity, one could argue that in bending some extra mass comes between the nut and the bridge, giving a complex interplay between mass, tension and pitch.
All in all I think your point is very valid.
Confirming the subtleness you mentioned, I'd like to broig to attention Hendrix's long fingers, which might compensate for the cutaway issue, but even more gave an above-average reach and een more important, greater leverage (strength) for bending his strings (albeit thin/light banjo strings). These properties might have had a less subtle effect.
The length of the string matters past the nut because the string slides over the nut. Its not locked as with a floydrose..the shorter the string past the nut the quicker the bend. Yu are correct. Exactly why in play lefty strat righty
I am amazed that two self-proclaimed experts can take issue with Susan's exposition and attempt to refute it without using one essential term ..."COMPLIANCE".
Google it ... research it .... "COMPLIANCE" . That's what this issue is all about ..."COMPLIANCE".
A violin has its string tension and overall playability regulated by adjusting the tightness of the tailpiece, at the same pitch and scale length, a violin can be easily adjusted to have higher or lower tension by adjusting what happens on "the other side" of the bridge, essentially the same thing as the other side of the nut. Therefore these slight changes on the above the nut string length and tension, coupled with the fact they are changed in opposite from low to high, means a feel change is very well possible. So, maybe reading a bit about the importance of a tailpiece and it's adjustment and help you understand what changes between the nut and tuner can do. As a left handed guitarist who has played converted as well as naturally left handed strats, I will attest to a difference in string "feel." Also hard tail and tremolo guitars have a different feel at the same pitch as well as through the body tele's and through the bridge tele's, at the same pitch and scale length, so there is some voodoo at work here.
Exactly, the length of the string will give it more spring, you're demonstration with the rope is perfect. Being Left handed I have 5 strat type guitars, some builds are with right hand necks, and having the short upper strings, makes them feel tight. The only part I don't understand is i have 1 strat that feels just right with 12's on it (std tuning) and all the others are too tight, so they're strung with 11's... Same floating bridge, some with 4 springs, some with 3 and the claw all the way in... this shall remain a mystery.
Electronics tech and guitarist by trade. I'm also a strat lover and own a Hendrix strat. There are generally only three dynamics that affect the timbre (or tone) of an electric guitar... the scale length, the pickup reactance, and to a lesser degree, the string gauge/tuning. In this discussion, you're forgetting that the poll pieces for the pickups are set to the height for the intended strings of a righty configuration. When Hendrix flipped and restrung his guitar, he didn't rotate the pickups. If you compare the Hendrix guitar closely to a regular righty strat, you'll see they rotated the pole pieces like Hendrix' setup, and when you combine this with tuning down a step as Hendrix did, you're able to more closely approximate the Hendrix sound. The reversed pups make a marked difference.
Very funny and well thought out, I enjoyed watching that rant. Be sure to take your blood pressure meds I look forward to hearing more from you. It all made perfect sense though once it was explained. Mick, I do think she was fair, she just stated the writer was wrong on that point and proved her point. I don't think she was insulting in any way, she just pointed out they had not properly thought out the theory he was pointing out. A lesson here for all. we can all be wrong and learn something new everyday.
A minor nit-pic, when you did the demo/explanation with your 12m cord (for all intent and purpose) it didn't "stretch" at all regardless of the length between your hands ( only a few inches) or the 12m from your hands to the anchor point. The long cord gave the impression of "stretch" when in fact you were only taking out the slack of the 12m. As you rocked to and fro pulling the cord it came to actual "scale" length. When we put on a new set of strings there is a great amount of slack until we get the typical three/four wraps around the tuner peg, Once the slack is taking up the strings come to pitch quite quickly. Then fine tuning will actually stretch (elongate) the wire. The scale length will effectively "cut" the wire off at the nut and bridge piece. so in practice the elongated string is still the same length but up to pitch.
she is so spot on. a longer string has to be pulled further to reach the same tonal tension between the bridge and the nut. because of this the string will feel slinkier or stretchy when bending due to the string having to be bent further on the neck to reach the required note. its really just that simple.
love your work susan gardner. your explanations are really helpful. keep it up girl.
Yes ma'am, I agree with you 100%. I own the hendrix stratocaster and in my opinion it is like you said. Treble strings feel slightly stiffer and bass strings fell slightly slacker. Although mine has hendrix voodoo child fender strings that have a custom gauge. Most are lighter other than the 10. Tuned to e flat and the lighter gauge strings give it a spongey feel. I have been experimenting with the spring tremolo tension to find a sweet spot. I also need a proper setup. I don't own a regular strat so I couldn't tell you exactly how noticeable it is but I think a seasoned guitarist would notice a slight difference between the two. Hope the feedback further proves your theory. Thanks for the information.
Cheers 🍻
Thank you!! Great explanation of this headstock phenomenon.
I have the Hendrix Voodoo strat and I came to the same exact conclusion as you. I've heard guitar builders give the same and wrong information about string tension in regards to guitars with reverse headstocks. I also feel that tension is related to the breaking angle of the string path. For example; angled headstocks or the angle that you adjust and set your bridge stop tailpiece.
Great video!!
Another thing that makes the tribute stratcaster different from the original was the radius of the neck. Jimi's from the 60s was 7.25 inch radius. The tribute is 9 inch radius. If anyone's played a 7 1/4 neck, you have to raise the string or they will not allow you to bend a tremble string without it dying out......
Strats, Les Pauls, 335s, 175s, Brian Mays and boutique guitars - it doesn't matter - each model and each individual guitar feels more or less different to a degree - none are exempt. This is why and how some guitars do seem to have magical qualities and some seem to be just fancy wooden slabs or boxes with strings on them. The very woods themselves cause this to be a fact. Add to that all the other variables and it becomes a madman's nightmare, especially a Strat with all its variables of inline tuners, spring tension on the whammy bar, through body hard tails, neck relief, variables of nut and bridge height, rosewood or maple fingerboard, neck thickness, width and radius, string trees or not, angle of the headstock to fingerboard, angle of neck to body...and probably fret wire itself also fits in there. The angle of the string as it goes over the bridge and over the nut also make a difference - which is why Bonamassa did the top wrap on the stop tailpiece - it changes the angle of the string over the bridge and also adds the amount of mass the string itself has contact with - which considerably increases sustain. Bonamassa didn't invent it. Duane Allman was doing it in the late 60s (and so was I in 1972). Compare the early Les Paul Jrs with the wrap around bridge to those with a stop tailpiece and the tension is even more different (which is where I stumbled onto it).
Now figure string angle at the nut into a Strat having a reverse headstock. The high E string has the angle of the bass string on a standard Strat headstock and the low End string has the angle of the high E string on a standard Strat headstock. It's a virtual maniac's nightmare of variabilities determining all of this - but it's there and it's real and to not consider it is to miss the entire point.
Here's a point to consider that puts the 'tension issue' into a realistically functional perspective. Instead of a comparatively tiny guitar string, imagine a 2 inch (approx. 5 centimeters) steel cable that's 100 feet (approx. 30.5 meters) long and another of the same diameter but only half the length. Now - imagine tightening them both to achieve the same pitch when plucked by an enormous giant pick. The question to ask is if they both require the same force/tension to get them to the exact same pitch. What's necessary to keep in mind here is that, not being the same length, they don't share the same weight/mass - which means each requires a considerably different amount of force/tension to get them to the same pitch.
Back to the string length on the 1st and 6th strings of a Strat - the very same issues apply (no matter where the nut is located). That said however, if there are locking tuners, the string lengths being the same once the tuners are locked, does seem to take the extra string length out of the equation - but, initially, does apply in getting the string up to tuning range (I know, this does seem to be a wild card variable). But, all other variables being ideally the same, considering the example of getting the different length cables up to pitch, the longer, heavier one most probably requires more force to hold it at the same pitch as the shorter one. DISCLAIMER: I've been wrong before and could be with this. It can be felt in the strings and, without a doubt, it definitely is 'force/tension' - not just 'it feels like it' or some mystical, voodoo thing or superstition that can't be factually explained. A genuine professional physicist or genuine professional construction engineer could answer this confusing question instantly. No contest - just my experience and observation - just sayin'...
Very good and well presented points!
Susan, I watched your excellent presentation a few years ago and am going to send the link to a believer in the very belief you have corrected.
I would like to say thank you for your work in demonstrating thoroughly, scientifically and eloquently.
Guitarist Magazine may now consider themselves peer reviewed xD
The tension has nothing to do with the nut but the length of the string from the tuner to the bridge. The longer the string the more the tension is required to bring it to pitch that is why Jimi using heavier gauge strings used the drop tuning to lessen the tension. The more tension, the more strength needed to bend string or push down to fret board.
All things being equal, while locking the nut does not change the tension used to create the pitch of the string -- the locked string will be harder to bend since there is less mass [of the shorter string] to hold the pitch, increasing the inertia required to displace the position of the string transversely to bend .... the increase in inertia is considered [by feel] as greater tension.
Yes Susan, you´re completely right.
Fender really made a fake-lefthand guitar which seems to be a nightmare to Jimi fans and guitarists as well.
Fender also obviously forgot, that Jimi mostly played CBS Fenders with no skunkstripe. There was also no trussrod screw in the headstock.
I totally agree with you. What I think is missing in you otherwise profound analysis is travel of string. And I guess that is what is confusing some. By travel of string I mean the length of string you have to wind onto the peg to achieve a specific tension. The greater the overall length of the string, the more often you have to turn your tuner to get to lets say E. Now I suspect that this fact tricks people into believing they are creating a higher tension with a longer string.
Thank you for this video. As an engineer I had basic physics in school that caused me to just shake my had when I heard people talk about how in-line tuners resulted in different tension than the 3-on-a-side tuners. Same scale length had to have the same tension regardless of how far the tuner is from the nut. To be honest I had never considered the stretchiness component but it makes perfect sense - provided you don't have a locking nut. People were probably just confusing tension and stretchiness. If you can bend a string easier it sure "seems" like the tension is less.
I'm floored by this. Great job! I've never seen this issue addressed in any other article. You've instantly won me as a subscriber. Thank you!
You are correct. I never thought about the extra string past the nut creating a more slinky feel to the string.
***** Explain how the extra string length creates more tension. Wouldn't that mean that on a Les Paul, the high and low E have much MORE tension than the D and G string. It does not feel that way to me.
***** Yes, correct, I accidentally said it backwards. Let me reword my question correctly. Wouldn't that mean that on a Les Paul the high and low E string would have much LESS tension than the other strings? It does not seem that way to me. the A and B string seem to have less tension.
***** I guess that makes sense because longer scale guitars have higher string tension. I may actually try that next time I change strings just so I can feel it.
When you stretch a string, without a nut lock, doesn' the string glide on the nut a bit? And wouldn't the extra length come into play?
Bingo! This woman obviously doesn't get that......
YES!!!
@@pharmerdavid1432 That's exactly what she said in this video if you watched it.
While the string tension between the nut and the bridge stays the same, the break angle of the string does affect the tension above the nut (likewise if top-wrapping v. normal on a Gibson style bridge). This change in tension, along with the amount of available string above the nut, will both affect things like the attack and the ease of string bending. Tl;dr tension does change on some parts of the string and it does have an effect.
So, basically, same tension but more string equals "slinky" feeling?
This is simple physics... if you shorten a string, it takes less tension to tune it to pitch. Grab ANY short scale guitar and dispute what I just typed.. What the poster is ignoring about locking nuts is that once you lock the nut, any of the slack storage behind the nut is eliminated. I will post the formula later if someone doubts the veracity of what I am stating.
Correct. It's amazing how all the comments here say she's right and that guitarist magazine is wrong.
I found this fascinating, both Susan's explanation, and Neville's replies. And after pondering this for an hour, I think I've figured out the whole point of confusion and why this is debated so much.
The tension is not the same across the length of the string. I think the max tension is at the 2 ends of the string, and min tension is in the middle. So that the longer string has more tension on the tuning peg, but at the nut it is less and winds up being the same as with the shorter but less tight string.
The tension at the nut is the same, but the string has been stretched more, so it bends less.
Well, what bothers me is that there's so much marketing going on in the so called expert magazines - not only in guitar magazines, but also in bicycle magazines to give an othe example. They're not beeing realy critical and are prone to subjectivity like any other customer is.
For example: the way Neville refers to the info on the Fender website. Fender first of all want to sell guitars and some marketing-person just comes up with a text which is not necessarily wrong, but it had the purpose to sell, and not to inform you 100% correct. So don't believe every word the write or at least be critical about it.
Also: magazines have to be filled with words every month.
I personally encourage that people like Susan take the time and do the effort to really question what is written in magazines, on commercial websites, ... and try to look at it in an objective way.
nut to bridge is the scale lenght. excess string beyond the nut doesnt matter except maybe if you dive bomb the trem. so maybe strings go out of tune differntly than a rh guitar. the pickup angle might well make a difference, except that Jimi Hendrix played almost exclusively on the neck pickup. really, its a cool looking strat, but its still just a strat except for the layout. i like the LH trem on an RH guitar though, but the SRV strat has that too. anyway, great video. rock on. Thanks for explaining the concepts ☺
You are absolutely right about this, whats written in that magazine is totally wrong, who ever written that must go back and do hes/her homework about guitars. There is not alot of ppl that is really thinking about this kinda stuff, so maybe just those who know about this will know that whats written is actually wrong.. great video and very interesting. A guitar is not just a guitar, its ALOT of theory to :D
This is the most British thing about Hendrix ever.
Thanks for a well thought out explanation on the difference that the string length has on the tension of the strings with the same tuning.I use both a Gretsch & a Strat alot & can feel the difference in the tension when it comes to bending..
As a studied luthier and guitar tech, I'll put in my two cents worth. Your logic concerning tension is correct in part - but you're simply applying it incorrectly. You can't compare a guitar with a locking nut to one with a floating nut (or zero fret) in this way. A locking nut (or capo) actually does shorten/change the string length. A floating nut does not. Using your own example, if I were to cut a small groove into a pencil and place it under your string (at literally any point), you would still be able to stretch it the same amount. Tension would not be changed at all. However, If I were to tie the string off at the same point as pencil, then you're logic would be absolutely correct. With a floating nut, even the break angle of the string behind the nut changes things up quite a bit. This is the reason for the string tree under b and e strings and also the difference in preferences of headstock angles by different manufacturers. For instance, if I were to raise the previously placed pencil under your lengthy string (not locked) a considerable amount, I would obviously be taking up slack and increasing tension. But according to your own logic, this would not be the case because you're thinking locking nut instead of a floating nut. Correct logic is to compare a locking nut the "tuning key" to which the string is attached - not to the floating nut. Sorry!
Great explanation! Interesting that Hendrix usually tuned down a semitone...
Ok, Im left handed and it's not all black & white as it seems..It's not about making it easy to bend strings. It's about feeling, strings are easy to bend whatever tension they are for some people (SRV).. Hendrix did indeed use a right handed Strat reverse strung, even though LH models were around in the 60's not many but it was quite easy to locate one. Yes the so called Hendrix tribute model Strat and the Guitatist magazine article is all very misleading. A point to note that wasn't mentioned in this video was the intonation and position of the bridge saddles on the Stratocaster Jimi played. Only a mention of the bridge PU angle, which truth be known did have a notable effect on the sound of certain passages in Jimi's playing. Hendrix didn't have a guitar tech to change the position of the bridge saddles and he didn't need one because even though the angle of the saddles was in reverse he just got around the different harmonics by being a total wizzard with his magic fingers. He may have had some work done on the Strats intonation and moved the saddles by the time of Band Of Gipsy's and then .... well everyone knows the story about Eric Clapton buying a left handed Strat to give to Hendrix but it was too late .. Jimi never saw it ~ Love & Peace
Thanks for bringing clarity to this question. I have thought about it from time to time, and I started thinking about it again when I saw the new Hendrix model was released. I believe your explanation settles it for me.
there is a point I'd like to make. ''tension'' isn't a word I've seen used in Physics. I will use ''force''. It would require greater force to tune a 100 metre cable to pitch than a 1 metre cable. The force required to pull a 1km cable to pitch would snap a guitar neck into splinters, if the string was capable of staying in one piece. Therefore, the longer the string, the greater the force required to pull that string to pitch. Perhaps 'tension' is loosely being used as a replacement for force in this example.
Lord Raleigh (AKA William Strutt) wrote two volumes on the theory of sound around 1890. I read them. The short story is that you are right. What matters is the distance between the bridge and the nut. After that it's all frets. What tension (force) does is raise or lower the pitch, let us say of the lowest note. Then you tune the guitar to that note Fret away. So it does not matter what note (tension) you tune the lowest note. It will be a correct relative scale. Now reality intervenes. We have to play with other people. So we have to standardize pitches and we get A = 440 Hz (I think). And now we are in the business of overtones. A very loose string sounds awful even were the pitch correct. So we tune the guitar so all the pitches sound good, and art creeps in on top on physics. Just my bag of chips.
To get the meter long headstock ... use the tuner holes on a regular headstock to bolt another board to and then have a new headstock at the end of that board to put the tuners in. You'll have to knot together two strings to get a long enough wire.
I'll be curious how that extra string length changes the sustain. Compare a plinky mandolin where half the string is beyond the bridge to a headless steinberger sustain.
I liked what you said and the way you said it. Personally, I think if Fender release a "Jimi strat", it should bethat - the same as his (albeit left or right handed) and not make the headstock "normal". Also with the controls - for me (and I would suggest for Jimi) the pickup switch gets in the way of unrestrained strumming. The overall result (again to me) is a bit silly, and has a similar authenticity to Jimi fridge magnets.
Hendrix used light strings on his strat i.e. 8's, and even used banjo strings, so maybe that is why he did it. However I would say that a distance of a few inches doesn't really matter all. What the strings are made of can compensate for that. Nowadays you can get equal tension strings, so that would totally obviate the effect.
Jimi used high to low: 10 13 15 24 31 38
I've played Standard right hand Strats for over 20 years...and have now had one of these Hendrix Strats for a year...without a doubt (all psychics aside) the bass string has less tension and the treble string feels tighter. Nice observation and the magazine is wrong. I'm also a guitar maker and have written articles for Acoustic Guitar mag and The Fretboard Journal. Hope the mag does an editorial correction/update in their follow up issue ;-) Thanks for posting the video
Probably why he tuned flat and easier to sing as well
The other phenomena not mentioned herein, which I've come to realize over 45 years of playing guitar, is the "resonance" created between the strings and the neck is a result of the "tension" in that system. As you increase tension in the truss rod you lose resonance. When I set up a neck on a guitar I now try to find that sweet spot where the resonance is best.
As we see, the tension in the bass string and the treble string on the Hendrix Strat is altered from the original headstock therefore the resonance will also be altered. There is now more wood under the treble string and less under the bass string thereby effecting the resonance greatly. The bass string will have less down pressure over the nut and the treble string will have more down pressure.
I believe the resonance coupled with the change in tension in all the strings is represented in a different "feel" for the player. It is noteworthy that Hendrix, I am told, used a lower gauge 3rd string than in a typical set of nine gauge strings. He must have felt the shortening in the length of the G string made it "stiffer" or "tighter" and he sought to reduce that effect with a softer string.
Lets look at a hypethetical situation. You have 2 guitars. One guitar has a stardard Gibson bridge but with a Bigsby for the tail stop.. The second guitar has the exact same strings tuned exactly the same as the first guitar only that the Bigsby is 10 feet further away from the bridge more then the first guitar. The tension of the strings will be identical on each guitar along with the identical tuning. On the first guitar you will need to pull on the Bigsby tremelo bar a certain amount to get the strings to move up lets say one whole note. But on the second guitar you will need to pull on the Bigsby tremolo bar alot more to get the same pitch effect as the first guitar. Is that not true?
Thanks so much for your very interesting post Susan, for a guy who actually wrote that article for the magazine ( mr Martin)to reply to your post in such a way as to try and save his , or perhaps the magazines credibility and by the sound of it his pride is just making me wonder why he can't just say Susan you are right, we made a mistake, and I apologise for this, ( the propagation of misinformation) . Thanks again Susan. We all need more people like you Brilliant.
She is wrong !
I do not debate what the nice Lady says, BUT, String tension IS also be affected by 'NECK RELIEF' (WHICH IS SET BY ADJUSTING THE TRUSS ROD), the distance between the top of the fret @ the 7TH & 9TH Frets and the bottom of the string.I play GIBSON guitars and I set my Les Paul's & 'SG' Neck Relief @ around .004"-.007" & the strings have a nice tight feel, crisp sound. However, if I set the RELIEF @ .012" the strings start to get 'Mushy' and it will only get worse from there @ .025"@ 7TH Fret (.026"@ 9TH Fret) the guitar strings have a horrible 'FEEL' and is miserable sounding. This happens with the strings at the right 'PITCH' and a TUNER will confirm that the guitar is in tune.NOW, BRING ON THE HATE, I stand BY WHAT I SAY...try it on your guitar, if you know how (ITS NOT DIFFICULT and you do not even need a NOTCHED STRAIGHT EDGE, but it will help with the measurements)and you too will see that it is possible to have less tension at the right pitch and it is due to 'NECK RELIEF', not, as the article ridiculously states, the tuners being in different places.
Tension is proportional to mass, and thus length in this case as a string has a standard mass distribution along it.
Susan, great video. They got it backwards. Just shows you that just because it's in a magazine, that doesn't mean they know what they're talking about. I play lefty and I've been playing Hendrix since 1979 when I was 16. I own several lefty and righty-strung-lefty strats. The difference is negligible. Each guitar sounds unique, but it's not because of the string length at the nut or the tilt of the pickup. People who claim that it's the key to Jimi's tone are full of BS.
The relationship between string tension and string length is not so easily explained. The tension on the length of string between the nut and bridge must always be the same to get the same frequency of vibration. The longer string will stretch more when tuning but will not feel slinkier once at the same pitch. If it stretched more easily it would not be at the same pitch. The most important aspect of the left-handed guitar is that the pickup pole pieces are different lengths and reversed under the strings so that the tone and relative volumes of each string are different then on a right handed guitar.
Or just read this if lazy: The string tension (stress) is only determined by 2 things: The target note (e.g. e'/e4), and the thickness of the string (e.g. .009). Always remember kids: stress is force over area. The length of the string is completely irrelevant. There is no need to discuss orientation of headstock or scale lengths. If you want to tune a 12 meter long .009 string to an e'/e4 you'll get the same tension as a 50cm long .009 string tuned to e'/e4.
I don't get why at first we were talking about locking nuts, where the total length would be irrelevant, then going on about the normal non-locking nut where the total string length even after the nut actually does affect something?
+Alex Henry Manfredi The point is that the locking nut, if set up correctly, doesn't affect the tension when you lock it - the pitch doesn't change. It shows that the string beyond the nut has no effect on the tension. The only effect comes when you bend the string, as string is drawn through the nut.
Hi Susan, I believe you're absolutely right and that the Guitarist is utterly wrong... I didn't read the article as I already have too many hobbies to accumulate more paper on the shelves. I buy the Guitarist now and then when something calls my atention on the cover. Other magazines I buy regularly are Hi-Fi World; Hi-Fi News, Märklin Magazin; Miba and The Railway Modeller. I've been accumulating Magazines since the sixties and believe it or not I frequently look for articles I read some 50 or more years ago. Like, for instance an article in Märklin Magazin dated August 1966 about the possible incorporation of a railway line in the Bridge over the Tagus that exists in Lisbon.There is a tension problem there too but based on the oposite principle . If you increase the weight on the trays of a suspended bridge the trays or the suspension cables won't be more stressed but you will put additional tension on the pilars. The same if you compare a cross bow and a long bow the tension is transferred to the stiffest element because the string tend to stretch and maintain its tension almost the same. That is why a cross bow sends its arrow further than a long bow and why given the same target the balistic curve of the long bow's arrow is more noticeable than the trajectory of the cross-bow's bolt. its the tension on the two different bows that send the arrows bolting away and not the tension in the strings themselves. A longer bow dissipates tension energy better than a shorter stiffer arm of a cross-bow that tends to accumulate energy up to the moment it is released. So if you want to increase the pitch you'll put more tension on the strings but it is the arm and head of the guitar that will suffer. If you keep the pitch the tension must be the same in spite of the longer or shorter length length of the string. I'm a lawyer not a cientist but no matter of the type of knowledge you prefer (cientific or humanistic) one thing people need to learn is to think strictly and clearly, Otherwise logic stinks of stilton but you dare not be guided by the smell, when the object of your analysis is something you want to eat!
I am a lefty with a right handed strat set up as Jimmi used to have it. It feels slightly different but you would have to be playing left and right handed guitars for some time to notice the difference and I don't know of any right handed guitarists who actively have left handed guitars set up to play right handed the way Jimmi had it. The only noticeable difference is the sound and as you rightly said, thats due to the bridge pickup. You are 100% correct. I was just wondering if the size of the house and using a heavier cord at 15 mtr length plus the addition of a larger 13.5 mtr headstock and tuned down would make me play like Jimmi Hendrix. :)
She says "if you had a locking nut, you could cut the strings and the note and tension would be the same" She's right, but what she doesn't understand is you had to tune the string before you locked the nut and a longer string will have to be tensioned more to get it to the same note than a shorter string. There are "string tension guides " all over the internet with variable lengths, many by the makers of strings themselves, and they predict the tension required!
Later she says: "Imagine you have a guitar with a 12 meter long headstock but the same 25.5" scale. " She implies that the longer string will be more "stretchy". What she forgets is how much tension she would have to put on the 12 meter long string to get it to pitch! A LOT! It won't work because the string is too long to ever get to pitch and will break.
Hi...I like your comment, so I had to mention that Jimi wound the low E string on the furthest winder in reverse to the other strings?...because it kept popping off the nut!!!...I've made a copy of Jimi's guitar and I had to do the same!...the hardest part about playing is the volume control makes you play under and up to avoid the things in the way!....in fact I removed the first volume control!!!....I also saw him playing before he was seen on Top of the Pops!...late 1960's ..in Bromley, Kent...and he had a real problem with tuning?...and 3 Marshall amps buzzing like hell!...because they were linked together through the Inputs causing a EARTH loop!!!.....hahaha...great fun but bloody loud!!!......remembering The WHO and Small faces were the only bands using feedback at the time!...so it was a real FIRST for me seeing Jimi.....d;-)
Very cool demonstration! Thank you very much!!
Do you want to buy a hedge trimmer ?
Hi Susan, I think personally that you might miss the point of it.
You talk about the locking nuts (on the market) and you forget the main thing about it. Before locking a locking nut, you have to bring the 6 strings to their pitches and tensions. Then you lock them in place right ? From that moment, you can play the guitar as if there was no nut locking device. But ! The 6 individual tensions are still there !
Now, it's true to say that it takes more force to raise a sting to pitch if it is longer. Take as an example the Les Paul versus the Strat. One has 24,75 inch of scale and the other one has 25,5 inch. The difference between the two is 0,75 inch. If you own both of these guitars, you will learn, for example, that a Les Paul can use a set of 0,010 strings and a Strat can use a set of 0,009. Why ? Because it's the way to go if you want to feel the same tensions (relative to the 2 scales) on both of the guitars. You will be able to put the same efforts to those bends and vibratos on both. Does it make sense ?
Also, we have to distinguish the pitch notes from the tensions. Playing a note on the fretboard doesn't change the tension in the string, only its length (between the bridge and the fret). We would need extremely strong hands to hold a string to its tension for any note.
locking nuts are basically invention of Floyd D. Rose , result of as we all know by now floyd rose tremolo system, they aren't on the market when Hendrix was living , if I might not be mistaken they came at 1977. app. 9 or 10 years after jimi passed away. Ok here is the sum up , even though it was a standart stratocaster, jimi's guitar was behaving like a baritone guitar on base notes and behaving like a short scale on treble side, thats all , his pickups was not affecting his sound as much as u think , because he was using either 50's or 60's pickups and they were all hot pickups on either base magnet or treble as like p90's .
Eric D. You won't get a response because you are correct laddie.
For determining the pitch of a string only three things are needed: the tension of the string, its length and its weight. The longher the string the lower the pitch, the more the tension the higher the pitch and the higher the weight the lower the pitch.
As such using the same strings (same weight per inch), the stratocaster will require more tension to have the same pitch of a Les Paul because its strings are longer in between the nut and the bridge saddles.
The only things that a longer string after the nut will change (if you don't have a locking nut) is the feeling of bendings and the tuning stability.
The tension of the strings of two guitar tuned the same, with the same scale and same strings but with different headstock will always be the same no matter how long the string is after the nut.
And this is why manufacturers of strings can have a tension table for their strings that doesn't account for the model of your guitar but only for its scale lenght.
On a guitar with the longer headstock you will only need to turn the tuning key more times because with a longer string after the nut you will need more turns to obtain the same tension.
That because you have to bring up to tension more string than if the string was shorter.
For the same reason a longer headstock will also affect bendings (if the string slides on the nut) because to obtain the same tension (and so the same pitch) on the string you will need to bend more but with less effort (the overrall effort is the same).
A guitar with shorter headstock may give you a tighter feel than a guitar with a longer headstock because you will have to put more effort to bend but you will also have to bend less to obtain the same pitch.
To prove that, you can make an experiment a little more accurate than the one she makes in the video: since to break a cotton thread you will always need the same tension, take two different length thread from the same spool (like one long 10" and the other 30ft) and try to break them. You will se that the shorter one stretches less than the longer one before breaking.
You reached the same tension when the two strings break but you have pulled more wire on the longer string to get the same result.
Nothing she says contradicts your points about the locking nut, 10s on a LP being like 9s on a strat, or the relationship between pitch and tension. You are leaving something out.
First, we have to make a distinction between tension and perceived resistance to bending. Perceived resistance to bending has to be further split between the distance you bend to get a certain pitch, and the force you need to move a string a certain distance. You could use the word "tension" to refer to resistance to bending, but then you'd have ambiguity in several ways.
When you lock a floyd, the feel of bending changes cause you don't have string feeding through the nut. Bending the string a certain distance takes more force, but the pitch will increase faster per distance. With the nut unlocked, it will be easier to bend a string a certain distance, but the pitch will not increase as much for a set distance of bend. More string beyond the scale length gives more feed though and makes it feel "slinkier". But, the increased distance you need to bend to get a certain note could mean having to bend other strings along with the one you are playing. In that way, it is subject which way is easier.
TL;DR you have to account for feed through and only talk about one variable at a time.
Although your reasoning is great I believe you may be wrong. I have an alternative theory base on empirical fact.
Your reasoning is perfectly done and you may be right if you consider only the sense of touch and not the sense of hearing.
Your theory misses a crucial point, I'll try to explain:
On a right-handed strat (high E string) if you want to rise the pitch (let's say) a full tone, you need to stretch the 65 cm of the scale lenght plus the 15 cm that go from the nut to the tuner. That means that even when the string is initially softer you need to bend further to get to the full tone bending and that's what makes it harder to bend. You're not stretching 65cm of string, you're stretching 80 cm. Those extra 15 cm are preventing you from reaching your desired pitch. So, yes you're right, the string is easier to strectch but the problem is that you are not reaching your desired note, you have to push harder, you are wasting energy in stretching 15 cms of string that have no direct effect on the pitch. A substantial amount of metallic material from the string at the side of the headstock crosses the nut and is now at the fretboard side making the pitch lower and you have to push more and more to compensate. Conclusion: bending notes is harder on non-reverse headstocks.
I have both strats, same string gauges. With the reverse headstock strat, bending the high string at fret 12 I can reach two full tones. With the normal headstock I can only bend one and a half tones. The empirical test seems to prove my string theory. In fact I'm trying to justify with a theory what is a reality empirically proven with my two strat necks. It may not be perfect but I hope it helps to look at the subject more deeply.
You nailed it and I've said the same for a long time. All of my electrics have locking nuts and when the nuts are not locked the difference in feel between the normal and reversed head stocks high E strings is quite noticeable.
When you bend a string on a locking nut - what is past the nut has no effect and all the stretching will occur before the nut (whatever the string length is). But - if you have ten foot of string the other side of the nut that slides and can stretch. It wont affect tone as the nut will always be in the same place - but it will be easier to stretch and play a little different. Either way certainly wont make you into Hendrix. The pickup will make a fair difference in tone. I always thought the treble on the high E on my strats was too high and Hendrix had the pickup on the high E in a better place - treble rolled off a little warmer.
Here's some info for you.
I had a Guild polara with 24 3/4" scale. And a Epiphone es339 with the
same 24 3/4" scale.
With each guitar strung with identical slinky 9-42 strings, the Guild was much 'stiffer' feeling. The headstock layout was the same. But the Guild had the stop tail much farther from its bridge compared to the Epiphone.
I put 8-38 strings on the Guild and it felt perfect. The Epiphone still has 9-42 slinkys as they feel perfect!
The guitar in the mag you have would be perfect if you like Jimi's tone.
But you need to use the string gauges he used.
10 13 15 26 32 38
Those D A E strings being so light give the 'jangly' sound his lower strings had.
Cheers!
I've had the "stiff feel" complaint from many customers before. And you're absolutely right. Break angle DOES affect feel, absolutely. Reducing the break angle makes a very noticeable difference and is a hugely overlooked aspect of setting up a guitar, mostly because people think that since it doesn't change tension, it's impossible for it to change feel.
Just gotta use your hand, and you know -- don't need any science to prove that!
Very interesting : i did not know this subtle point and now i understand a little more about the design of the Strat. Just to clarify a technical point. There are only 3 physical properties related to the pitch (i.e. the frequency) of the sound (and not 4 as you say) : 1) the unit weight (i.e. the weight per length unit), 2) the length and 3) the tension. This is why both the string diameter and the material (say steel or nylon) affect only one single parameter : the unit weight.
If you look at the equations for string vibrations you could see that it is not possible to get the same frequency with out the right tension with the same linear density (same guitar strings). Also, the only thing that matters is the string between the nut and bridge.
The biggest thing they missed is the resonance difference of the guitar body being flipped because the Low-E string is now over the hollow part of the body. along with the staggered pickups being reversed is what made a distinct sound. The neck makes no difference. I own the model they displayed in this magazine AND the 1997 version that's basically a left handed guitar strung right and there's quite a bit of difference.
I have one of those 1997's Hendrix strat too, but not the newer version which is normal except for the neck and pickups being reversed. Having the wiggle bar on the top of the bridge seems better too. Even though it's a poly finish, Jimi liked his two 1968's better than his older strats finished in nitro, and he could afford anything. When you capo up the neck, that changes the string behind the "nut" (capo), but that doesn't seem to effect the feel as much as the change in scale length. As I move it up the neck, the strings are stiffer, but easier to bend, because they get to pitch quicker. I'm probably wrong in my twisted mind. I like the tuners on the bottom, because they are easier to get to. It seems like Leo Fender should have put them on the bottom from the beginning. Why DID he put them on the top, if it doesn't effect feel...?
Have you had the scratch plate off a strat? The cut-outs for the pick-ups are the same no matter which way you string the guitar and the only other "hollow" is for the pots and switch which are far enough from the strings that which string is nearest shouldn't affect the resonance. (This is without going into the argument on "Tone Woods" and "Hollows" affecting the resonance of an electric guitar where the pick-ups are support on springs and not directly attached to the body)
Derek Gibson As ignorant as your comment I'm forced to ask *Have you ever seen a Strat with the pickguard removed!?
You proved nothing outside of the painfully obvious fact you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I would normally put the math and physics forward with explanation, but it is sadly apparent you wouldn't understand.
Check out video ruclips.net/video/Ew-olt0ZXuA/видео.html. Pause at 1:27 and point out how the hollow below the high E string is different to the hollow below the low E? The hollow where the controls are is almost non existent when the controls and wiring are in place. Now drag out your physics and prove that the body resonates differently depending on where the strings are. While you're at it prove that different woods produce a different sound on an electric guitar, no two people agree on the effect of wood on tone. If you thought my comment was ignorant you want to get out in the world more. I thought it was fairly concise and relatively polite, it wasn't me who started the name calling.
I learned something in this video. I don't play the guitar much anymore, but the next time I do, I'm going to tune it to Eb and put a capo on the first fret to bring it back to E. I've always wished for a guitar with less tension but still in E.
There is one more factor that may change pitch to the strings and that is the use of
jumbo frets. They tend to wear down wider thus changing the strings length (shorter) thus the note sound higher.
HI Susie - notice Guitarist have been pretty specific in this month's edition - Sept 2017 - page 18, re a Chapman guitar string feel.
Your debate has obviously prompted more concern for accuracy. I used to wonder if a longer string - between tuner and tailpiece - would effect the sutain or length of time the string would vibrate - with the assumption it is more elastic. But do more elastic strings vibrate longer or shorter than less elastic strings? I guess the whole issue is about what contributes towards a specific desired sound! Sorry.
+paintboxpash I suspect longer strings have less sustain as the spare string beyond the nut will have a damping effect. I don't know for sure though. There might be an experiment I can do, but the effect could be very small.
I found that very interesting, especially about the Brian May frets lining up with the 2nd fret onwards on a strat enabling him to loosen his strings a bit. I'm tempted to try that on my next build.
That was very interesting.I am a Hendrix fanatic guitar player so this was especially interesting.thanks Susie .I look foward to more of your videos.
The nut on most guitars is not locking. The nut is basically acting like a frictionless pulley. So the reverse headstock article in that magazine is not wrong, if it feels slacker then to us simpls guitar folk it has less tension (hehe)
Is break angle a myth too? So long as the string doesn't slip at the node, ...at the saddle, then surely it doesn't matter what is happening beyond. As long as it is doing its job at stopping slippage. The height will clearly affect the action above the top, but that has nothing to do with the break angle. Any ideas her folks?