Thank you, thank you... although I knew about Wessely's involvement with the SMC and that organisation's key role in popularising a false narrative about ME/CFS by heavily promoting the deeply flawed PACE Trial, I had no idea about the SMC's history and ideologies associated with it. I had assumed they simply fell under the spell of the ever charming and superficially plausible Wessely, and were misled. I'm grateful Mr Monbiot has brought the bizarre far right (originally far left) ideology and associated cruel attitudes to illness and suffering of the SMC out into the light for all to see, and for the Guardian - who have themselves been guilty for years of parroting the PACE authors/ SMC's toxic narratives regarding ME/CFS in the name of 'balance', to the great distress of patients - for publishing it.
I cannot help but wonder what kind of connectivity exists between the Science Media Centre and members of the UK government. The Pace trial and all the biopsychosocial framing of ME/CFS could not have happened without some degree of support from within the British government. Was all of this in the end the result of explicit policy choices?
Can't wait for Monbiot to write a piece putting together environmental pollution & increase in ME/CFS as well as other disease, as it's about time to connect health activism and climate activism..
Thank you for this interview. It definitely highlighted some new information that I was not aware of. I would however, highlight that the description here of "far right libertarian" here is not correct; "libertarian" and "liberationist" have historically been used interchangeably, but are now relatively well defined, and I would consider this philosophy to be far more "liberationist". Libertarianism provides individuals freedom from state oppression, whilst liberationism provides individuals from all oppression; including from reality itself, enabling them to live within whatever version of reality they can construct within their own mind. A libertarian would recognise an employer's right to provide low wages to an employer (as part of a negotiated contractual agreement), whilst a liberationist would see a low wage as oppression. These ideologies have some overlap, but Libertarianism is often more emperical and liberationism is more rationalistic. The reason that the science described here does not conform to our understanding is that the definition of "science" to a liberation theologian is different to Aquinas' "scientia" - perfectly cognising something by understanding its cause, and more akin to Hegel's "Naturwißenschaften", which places truth as pure self-consciousness in the development of self. The concept of entryism is also interesting to me, as this is the model as outlined by Antonio Gramsci, who identified that that Marx's historicism (also considered to be "scientific" in the Hegelian sense) was incorrect, and that a revolutionary Vanguard was necessary, à la Lenin. Gramsci outlined 5 vital areas for entryism: Family, Education, Religion, Media and Law. Once these areas have been subverted to create a new cultural hegemony, revolutionaries need to be eliminated to prevent further revolution away from the newly established hegemony. Mao followed this model when he eliminated the Red Guard following his revolution. Following Mao's catastrophic economic policies, Deng introduced a combined socialist/capitalist model; whereby private industry is actively encouraged, but highly regulated to operate within the government's allowable tolerance. It is easy to see how this suppression of conflicting ideas and promotion of individual enterprise is conflated with "far-right"; however, it is the farthest thing from "libertarian". Within the Dengist model, the aims of large governments and large corporations converge such that they support eachother. "You don't need a formal conspiracy when interests converge" - George Carlin
I'm not sure of the accuracy of this article. Possibly the name is only similiar to the group a friend of mine was in--are you sure of the name?. They were picketing South Africn House when I met met my friend in 1984 so others in the group. They never moved to the right or the extreme right. My friend had been a biologist before he became a writer and retained an excellent grasp of science. Claire Fox was never a member of this group so I suppose it is distinct. My Chinese partner had something like ME also known as chronic fatigue syndrome. She lived with a clinically mad and very ill man caring for him over near 13 years. After years with me her fatigue lifted after a she took and takes a medicine against her mental disorder when she made a fairly good recovery against ME. The Chinese doctors said she suffered ME the British she did not. I have just wondered--from this experience--if ME might be connected to insanity.
Thank you, gentlemen! Much love to you both!
Fascinating stuff! I would love to see a documentary about this sinister group, it would also make a great DDN episode! Thanks again to you both!
Love George and you eloquently exposing this bs
Excellent chat. Very interesting
Thank you so much for this discussion and the acknowledgement of the suffering of so many with the horrendous and lifelong chronic illness M.E.
Thank you, thank you... although I knew about Wessely's involvement with the SMC and that organisation's key role in popularising a false narrative about ME/CFS by heavily promoting the deeply flawed PACE Trial, I had no idea about the SMC's history and ideologies associated with it. I had assumed they simply fell under the spell of the ever charming and superficially plausible Wessely, and were misled.
I'm grateful Mr Monbiot has brought the bizarre far right (originally far left) ideology and associated cruel attitudes to illness and suffering of the SMC out into the light for all to see, and for the Guardian - who have themselves been guilty for years of parroting the PACE authors/ SMC's toxic narratives regarding ME/CFS in the name of 'balance', to the great distress of patients - for publishing it.
I cannot help but wonder what kind of connectivity exists between the Science Media Centre and members of the UK government. The Pace trial and all the biopsychosocial framing of ME/CFS could not have happened without some degree of support from within the British government. Was all of this in the end the result of explicit policy choices?
Thanks for explaining it in more depth.
Can't wait for Monbiot to write a piece putting together environmental pollution & increase in ME/CFS as well as other disease, as it's about time to connect health activism and climate activism..
Thank you for this interview. It definitely highlighted some new information that I was not aware of.
I would however, highlight that the description here of "far right libertarian" here is not correct; "libertarian" and "liberationist" have historically been used interchangeably, but are now relatively well defined, and I would consider this philosophy to be far more "liberationist".
Libertarianism provides individuals freedom from state oppression, whilst liberationism provides individuals from all oppression; including from reality itself, enabling them to live within whatever version of reality they can construct within their own mind.
A libertarian would recognise an employer's right to provide low wages to an employer (as part of a negotiated contractual agreement), whilst a liberationist would see a low wage as oppression. These ideologies have some overlap, but Libertarianism is often more emperical and liberationism is more rationalistic.
The reason that the science described here does not conform to our understanding is that the definition of "science" to a liberation theologian is different to Aquinas' "scientia" - perfectly cognising something by understanding its cause, and more akin to Hegel's "Naturwißenschaften", which places truth as pure self-consciousness in the development of self.
The concept of entryism is also interesting to me, as this is the model as outlined by Antonio Gramsci, who identified that that Marx's historicism (also considered to be "scientific" in the Hegelian sense) was incorrect, and that a revolutionary Vanguard was necessary, à la Lenin. Gramsci outlined 5 vital areas for entryism: Family, Education, Religion, Media and Law.
Once these areas have been subverted to create a new cultural hegemony, revolutionaries need to be eliminated to prevent further revolution away from the newly established hegemony. Mao followed this model when he eliminated the Red Guard following his revolution.
Following Mao's catastrophic economic policies, Deng introduced a combined socialist/capitalist model; whereby private industry is actively encouraged, but highly regulated to operate within the government's allowable tolerance.
It is easy to see how this suppression of conflicting ideas and promotion of individual enterprise is conflated with "far-right"; however, it is the farthest thing from "libertarian".
Within the Dengist model, the aims of large governments and large corporations converge such that they support eachother.
"You don't need a formal conspiracy when interests converge" - George Carlin
I'm not sure of the accuracy of this article. Possibly the name is only similiar to the group a friend of mine was in--are you sure of the name?. They were picketing South Africn House when I met met my friend in 1984 so others in the group. They never moved to the right or the extreme right. My friend had been a biologist before he became a writer and retained an excellent grasp of science. Claire Fox was never a member of this group so I suppose it is distinct. My Chinese partner had something like ME also known as chronic fatigue syndrome. She lived with a clinically mad and very ill man caring for him over near 13 years. After years with me her fatigue lifted after a she took and takes a medicine against her mental disorder when she made a fairly good recovery against ME. The Chinese doctors said she suffered ME the British she did not. I have just wondered--from this experience--if ME might be connected to insanity.
We need these guys to do a collaboration with Ren. #RenMakesMusic #Renegades #SickBoi #MoneyTies
Ren contributed to the soundtrack of "Unrest", together with Bear McCreary. The song is Patience.