This is the best explanation I have heard in the last 50 years of playing with Minis and Old MG's which I am fiddling with now in retirement. It shows, if you are open minded, it is never too late to learn something new. Thanks for this and I think my MGA needs the timing backing off a little. I go back to the basic static setting again and work from there.
I have many excellent teachers! I wish I could better communicate the understanding that I have gained with practice. I enjoyed a video by @junkerup not long ago on the same topic.
Great explanation Kim. What also comes into play is that age old argument of manifold or ported vacuum advance. I may be wrong, but those arguing, are on opposite sides of the fence. Manifold for a race engine, ported for a quietly driven street car is the way I'm hearing it.
Just found this video, and im planning to "revive" the 1951 Chevy Fleetline Deluxe (235, Powerglide) i bought a few months ago. This video scared the crap out of me. Now i have to figure out how much the motor was messed with. Excellent, eye-opening info!
Not intended to frighten anyone, but you get the idea. Always verify total timing when working on old cars, even 'remanufactured' parts could give you unintended results.
Hey, I hear ya, Kim. I grew up working on 60s cars. Most of my friends had no clue about timing or tuning because they were too lazy to "read" the books on automotive science. I did read 'em, and so became designated tune-up guy in the hotrod group. Ignition timing can either enhance your engine's performance or destroy the engine from within.
I usually go up a steep hill and advance the timing until it pings, then back off. Then again there are so many ways to time an engine. Some better than others.
Advance is deigned into the distributor Timing is restricted set by compression /camshaft/fuel octane / combustion chamber design . Timing is categorised into 2 main areas 1/ mechanical and 2/ vacuum 1/MECH is set into idle / max independently of each other . Advance curve starts 200rpm after idle . Rate of increase and ,, max timing should be achieved as quick as possible depending upon engine pinging / detonation response . 2/ Vacuum advance is designed to give xtra advance when engine conditions of light throttle and load . Why u need more time to allow for a low density fuel to ignite . This occurs in top gear 1to 1 at between vac readings at 35--55 mph
Thank you for a concise detail of timing. Setting old analog equipment to achieve the ideal is an interesting process that requires study as well as trial and error.
Hi Kim love your content you are spot on the timing talk issue I admire your experience in auto talk, and when you said mopar I had to subscribe. I currently have a Duster 71 with a 340 I use a FBO plate In my distributor, before I would get pinging now I have the control with the plate.
Glad to hear you have built a distributor to get great performance out of a legendary engine. Thanks for watching and I will do my best to keep making worthwhile content.
Yeah..always have that timing gun to make sure your total max timing doesnt go over what the engine can handle. Might sound great on idle but getting onto a freeway you might blow your engine.
This stuff also comes into play with a "driver" and not a "racer". A lot of stuff you see on here (the internet) is Race-Based, not Driver-Based. I watch a lot of these videos and read a lot of forums, where people say to do this or that.... and it's way out for a Driver and will burn them down in a few 100 miles. I'll admit I've bumped them up to get a fire-up if it's being stubborn.... but its just a "1st Fire" then I bring it back down. Good video, and yeah, I was one of those like you that had a knee jerk moment on this... "revival videos" that are so popular on the net now.
I completely agree with how you are saying. Most of the old racers who taught me would not connect the vacuum advance. They would also put 'quick' springs in the distributor so the mechanical would be 'all in' very quickly, or even weld up the advance mechanism. They didn't care about fuel economy and their motors were designed to give them the simplest possible path to wide open throttle. I have seen too many videos where 'drivers' were set up all wrong because the person didn't really understand how the old pre-computer systems worked.
So, do you think that getting as high as possible initial timing, as “tall John fun Garage” recommends, it does not improve throttle response, power and driveability ?. BR
timing is a complex interaction of many factors. each model car can have different features such as base compression, manifold design, carb design, transmission and rear end gearing with tire size/height factored, vehicle weight/ towing ability. The list goes on and on. To get the right settings, you need to consider the many factors and 'dial in' to settings that 'tune' your car/truck to meet your needs. The mistake would be to just assume that settings used for some car/engine on the internet will meet my own goals/needs. if it were that simple, then anyone could do it.
That was funny how you added the intro as an out-tro. 😂😂 The vacuum at idle thing is for setting the idle mixture screws on a carb if I'm not mistaken. I've never heard to do that for timing. I learned something new, because I didn't know that was a thing. Are you running points on that, or did you update the distributor? And what's the plan for the hot rod? 426 Hemi with a fogger and 2 kits (or a screw blown Hemi)? A new generation Hemi with twin 88mm turbos? Some of us OGs from your other channel need to know these things! It's also cool to see this side of you. Keep the hot rod thing going. Also, I can't wait to see you do a little testing on the Hog. Some of the guys involved in that are racers I looked up to in drag racing. It should be a blast!
Vacuum timing ….my 235 runs great. It is hard to time a 235 with the pressed in bb in the flywheel so vacuuming timing seems to work. But I do have a electronic distributor from an S-10 Langdon mfg. and changed over to alternator from 5th street garage Randy Rundle the inventor has passed away but his family is still making these 5 star alternators. I don’t think Vacuum timing is harmful? Thanks Steve
Thanks for the video! Hope you saved somebody a YOU IDIOT moment! I would say that if your using a vacuum dashpot on your distributor..and it's basicly a stock engine (meaning it has factory spec cam and intake) then keep it as close to factory specs as possible. I've seen some old school tuners that could tune by ear..but that comes from years of doing it. I wouldn't recommend making any big timing changes without using a timing light
excellent point! the original designers of most cars had no choice but to make assumptions about what the minimum quality would be. Computers are a compelling tool if you don't mind the complexity.
Some of these cars I think were designed to run little or no advance at idle in order to be very quiet and smooth and had a lot of vacuum advance and/or centrifugal advance built in,so "timing for best idle" would dangerously overadvance on the road? also if you blow up an antique engine it won't be easy to find another one! Get a good timing light.
I agree with your generalization. Really need to figure out mechanical+vacuum and then subtract to set initial with a timing light. The car in this video has a chevy 305, so it's not at all rare.
For a street driven car with an automatic transmission and typical rear end gears such as 2.76 and using the factory tire height, you should be able to get a reasonable base to adjust your carb at a 10 degree initial timing. If any factors change to weight or gearing, then you might need to decrease your initial timing. 10 or 12 BTDC was about the maximum I have seen in factory Chrysler applications. Keep in mind also, that you will need to confirm the total timing that is added by your mechanical advance. My unprofessional understanding is that the long stroke of a 225 slant six doesn't like much more than 32 or 34 degrees of initial+mechanical. Don't use ANY vacuum advance until you have tuned your carb and confirmed your total mechanical timing advance is good. If you need to modify your mechanical advance, I just uploaded a new video that shows how it's done.
@@kimfixesthings The Accelerator pump works fine, also it looks like there is enough gas is going through the carburetor. I think it's the ignition system. We have asjusted the contact breaker points, replaced the distributor cap adjusted the carb. Unfortunately the mark on the fly wheel isn't there anymore. But even if the timing is slightly off, it shouldn't run that bad
@@DaBoogie049 you can remove the #1 spark plug and use a piece of wire to 'feel' the piston rise as a helper rotates the crankshaft. this will allow you to find 'top dead center'. You then want to verify that your distributor lines up to the #1 spark plug wire in the cap. You also need to confirm that the #1 is on the compression stroke and not the exhaust stroke. If the distributor is 180 degrees out, all cylinders would fire on the exhaust, and the engine could actually start like that, but it would run very badly. you should find answers through this process. I will assume that you have already made the typical checks, such as firing order and condition of wires and coil voltage and connections.
Ok I had to read comments just to get a lay of the mechanical smarts on here lol.... I guess most people here can not recurve their own dizzy...or even read total timing all in by 2500rpm...or even know how to degree a dampner with a simple marker... Hey they might not even own a timing light....100% the ear is not a precise device to use to time an engine... so to it get up and running always stay on the conservtive side just to be safe more is not always better... I mean you hear the starter kicking back and you still give it more then you deserve a melted piston...or a dead starter😂... Cars are not some dark magic they are science in motion that can be measured ..tuned to spec there is no room for guessing... but you will always have those who will live by old wives tales....so flip those pistions from side to side and give it 36° BTDC and watch it go!.... And please said people stay far away from a modern cars 😂😂😂
This isn't the best video I have ever done, nor am I an expert. You understand, it's about knowing the larger picture and confirming that all the parts are working together. @thunderhead289 just did an excellent video on timing and base tuning a ford that I admire. I don't know why this video keeps getting views, but I want to make better content and keep enjoying these old machines while I learn.
I agree that I am completely 'all over the place'. I don't think that making tech videos is my calling. Sometimes a person has to try and fail to get where they need to go. Harsh comment, but not wrong.
This is the best explanation I have heard in the last 50 years of playing with Minis and Old MG's which I am fiddling with now in retirement. It shows, if you are open minded, it is never too late to learn something new. Thanks for this and I think my MGA needs the timing backing off a little. I go back to the basic static setting again and work from there.
I have many excellent teachers! I wish I could better communicate the understanding that I have gained with practice. I enjoyed a video by @junkerup not long ago on the same topic.
@@kimfixesthings Never underestimate yourself. Your presentation skills are exceptional. Go girl.
Great explanation Kim. What also comes into play is that age old argument of manifold or ported vacuum advance. I may be wrong, but those arguing, are on opposite sides of the fence. Manifold for a race engine, ported for a quietly driven street car is the way I'm hearing it.
Just found this video, and im planning to "revive" the 1951 Chevy Fleetline Deluxe (235, Powerglide) i bought a few months ago. This video scared the crap out of me. Now i have to figure out how much the motor was messed with. Excellent, eye-opening info!
Not intended to frighten anyone, but you get the idea. Always verify total timing when working on old cars, even 'remanufactured' parts could give you unintended results.
@kimfixesthings Iprobably overstated it :). Great info!
Hey, I hear ya, Kim. I grew up working on 60s cars. Most of my friends had no clue about timing or tuning because they were too lazy to "read" the books on automotive science. I did read 'em, and so became designated tune-up guy in the hotrod group. Ignition timing can either enhance your engine's performance or destroy the engine from within.
I usually go up a steep hill and advance the timing until it pings, then back off. Then again there are so many ways to time an engine. Some better than others.
I'm glad someone finally said it.
As i have learned more, it is even more complicated than i realized
Advance is deigned into the distributor
Timing is restricted set by compression /camshaft/fuel octane / combustion chamber design . Timing is categorised into 2 main areas 1/ mechanical and 2/ vacuum
1/MECH is set into idle / max independently of each other . Advance curve starts 200rpm after idle . Rate of increase and ,, max timing should be achieved as quick as possible depending upon engine pinging / detonation response .
2/ Vacuum advance is designed to give xtra advance when engine conditions of light throttle and load . Why u need more time to allow for a low density fuel to ignite .
This occurs in top gear 1to 1 at between vac readings at 35--55 mph
Thank you for a concise detail of timing. Setting old analog equipment to achieve the ideal is an interesting process that requires study as well as trial and error.
Hi Kim love your content you are spot on the timing talk issue I admire your experience in auto talk, and when you said mopar I had to subscribe. I currently have a Duster 71 with a 340 I use a FBO plate In my distributor, before I would get pinging now I have the control with the plate.
Glad to hear you have built a distributor to get great performance out of a legendary engine. Thanks for watching and I will do my best to keep making worthwhile content.
Great video, would love to see more in depth explanations like this!
I'm not an automotive expert, so I don't always have a lot to say. Hopefully I can find useful tidbits while I work.
Yeah..always have that timing gun to make sure your total max timing doesnt go over what the engine can handle. Might sound great on idle but getting onto a freeway you might blow your engine.
We love your work. Thanks for sharing.
This stuff also comes into play with a "driver" and not a "racer". A lot of stuff you see on here (the internet) is Race-Based, not Driver-Based. I watch a lot of these videos and read a lot of forums, where people say to do this or that.... and it's way out for a Driver and will burn them down in a few 100 miles. I'll admit I've bumped them up to get a fire-up if it's being stubborn.... but its just a "1st Fire" then I bring it back down.
Good video, and yeah, I was one of those like you that had a knee jerk moment on this... "revival videos" that are so popular on the net now.
I completely agree with how you are saying. Most of the old racers who taught me would not connect the vacuum advance. They would also put 'quick' springs in the distributor so the mechanical would be 'all in' very quickly, or even weld up the advance mechanism. They didn't care about fuel economy and their motors were designed to give them the simplest possible path to wide open throttle. I have seen too many videos where 'drivers' were set up all wrong because the person didn't really understand how the old pre-computer systems worked.
So, do you think that getting as high as possible initial timing, as “tall John fun Garage” recommends, it does not improve throttle response, power and driveability ?. BR
timing is a complex interaction of many factors. each model car can have different features such as base compression, manifold design, carb design, transmission and rear end gearing with tire size/height factored, vehicle weight/ towing ability. The list goes on and on. To get the right settings, you need to consider the many factors and 'dial in' to settings that 'tune' your car/truck to meet your needs. The mistake would be to just assume that settings used for some car/engine on the internet will meet my own goals/needs. if it were that simple, then anyone could do it.
That’s a sweet ride! Great content and good input! 😃👍
That was funny how you added the intro as an out-tro. 😂😂
The vacuum at idle thing is for setting the idle mixture screws on a carb if I'm not mistaken. I've never heard to do that for timing. I learned something new, because I didn't know that was a thing.
Are you running points on that, or did you update the distributor? And what's the plan for the hot rod? 426 Hemi with a fogger and 2 kits (or a screw blown Hemi)? A new generation Hemi with twin 88mm turbos? Some of us OGs from your other channel need to know these things! It's also cool to see this side of you. Keep the hot rod thing going.
Also, I can't wait to see you do a little testing on the Hog. Some of the guys involved in that are racers I looked up to in drag racing. It should be a blast!
Vacuum timing ….my 235 runs great. It is hard to time a 235 with the pressed in bb in the flywheel so vacuuming timing seems to work. But I do have a electronic distributor from an S-10 Langdon mfg. and changed over to alternator from 5th street garage Randy Rundle the inventor has passed away but his family is still making these 5 star alternators. I don’t think Vacuum timing is harmful? Thanks Steve
Thanks for the video! Hope you saved somebody a YOU IDIOT moment! I would say that if your using a vacuum dashpot on your distributor..and it's basicly a stock engine (meaning it has factory spec cam and intake) then keep it as close to factory specs as possible. I've seen some old school tuners that could tune by ear..but that comes from years of doing it. I wouldn't recommend making any big timing changes without using a timing light
Factory specs don’t mean anything anymore. Fuel is different than it used to be.
excellent point! the original designers of most cars had no choice but to make assumptions about what the minimum quality would be. Computers are a compelling tool if you don't mind the complexity.
Some of these cars I think were designed to run little or no advance at idle in order to be very quiet and smooth and had a lot of vacuum advance and/or centrifugal advance built in,so "timing for best idle" would dangerously overadvance on the road?
also if you blow up an antique engine it won't be easy to find another one! Get a good timing light.
I agree with your generalization. Really need to figure out mechanical+vacuum and then subtract to set initial with a timing light. The car in this video has a chevy 305, so it's not at all rare.
Hello, according to your experience, what is the best initial timing for a 2 bbl’s slant six, 10 Degrees ?.
For a street driven car with an automatic transmission and typical rear end gears such as 2.76 and using the factory tire height, you should be able to get a reasonable base to adjust your carb at a 10 degree initial timing. If any factors change to weight or gearing, then you might need to decrease your initial timing. 10 or 12 BTDC was about the maximum I have seen in factory Chrysler applications. Keep in mind also, that you will need to confirm the total timing that is added by your mechanical advance. My unprofessional understanding is that the long stroke of a 225 slant six doesn't like much more than 32 or 34 degrees of initial+mechanical. Don't use ANY vacuum advance until you have tuned your carb and confirmed your total mechanical timing advance is good. If you need to modify your mechanical advance, I just uploaded a new video that shows how it's done.
Thankyou! ❤
Kool
We've got a Buick straight eight that doesn't rev and does a fart noise when stepping on the gas. We have absolutely no idea why!
accelerator pump? what have you done to it so far?
@@kimfixesthings The Accelerator pump works fine, also it looks like there is enough gas is going through the carburetor. I think it's the ignition system. We have asjusted the contact breaker points, replaced the distributor cap adjusted the carb. Unfortunately the mark on the fly wheel isn't there anymore. But even if the timing is slightly off, it shouldn't run that bad
@@DaBoogie049 you can remove the #1 spark plug and use a piece of wire to 'feel' the piston rise as a helper rotates the crankshaft. this will allow you to find 'top dead center'. You then want to verify that your distributor lines up to the #1 spark plug wire in the cap. You also need to confirm that the #1 is on the compression stroke and not the exhaust stroke. If the distributor is 180 degrees out, all cylinders would fire on the exhaust, and the engine could actually start like that, but it would run very badly. you should find answers through this process. I will assume that you have already made the typical checks, such as firing order and condition of wires and coil voltage and connections.
@@kimfixesthings Thank you so much for your time and expertise!!!❤️
Oh God.
You need to learn how a vacume advance works.
maybe.
Ok I had to read comments just to get a lay of the mechanical smarts on here lol.... I guess most people here can not recurve their own dizzy...or even read total timing all in by 2500rpm...or even know how to degree a dampner with a simple marker... Hey they might not even own a timing light....100% the ear is not a precise device to use to time an engine... so to it get up and running always stay on the conservtive side just to be safe more is not always better... I mean you hear the starter kicking back and you still give it more then you deserve a melted piston...or a dead starter😂... Cars are not some dark magic they are science in motion that can be measured ..tuned to spec there is no room for guessing... but you will always have those who will live by old wives tales....so flip those pistions from side to side and give it 36° BTDC and watch it go!.... And please said people stay far away from a modern cars 😂😂😂
This isn't the best video I have ever done, nor am I an expert. You understand, it's about knowing the larger picture and confirming that all the parts are working together. @thunderhead289 just did an excellent video on timing and base tuning a ford that I admire. I don't know why this video keeps getting views, but I want to make better content and keep enjoying these old machines while I learn.
Why is she shouting?
I actually dislike this entire video in terms of production quality, but it is one of the highest viewed on my channel so I hate to take it down.
Wow, you kind of know what you're talking about but you're all over the place on the nomenclature. Pass.
I agree that I am completely 'all over the place'. I don't think that making tech videos is my calling. Sometimes a person has to try and fail to get where they need to go. Harsh comment, but not wrong.