I’m from Canada and our indigenous west coast lived in settlements and hunted and fished but also planted food bearing trees amongst the forrest . I really don’t think there was a hard line between hunting and farming
Right you are. Most indigenous Americans were casual permaculturists and gardeners. Strangely enough, Poverty Point was probably North America's first agricultural research facility but has absolutely ludicrous "nomadic hunter gatherer" lore spun around it.
Poverty Point was constructed centuries after the first domesticated crops have been identified. but those crops don't appear at Poverty Point, and we don't get agricultural tools there. So you're wrong in two opposite ways. @@zeideerskine3462 We also know from the provenance research on artifacts at Poverty Point that people who traveled there were usually coming from over 5 days journey away.
About the Tainiaro findings, have you guys bothered to read the original article and get some context from the articles sited in the paper? The article itself is open access, btw. Bone material very rarely survives in the acidic conditions of ground in Finland. However, in comparison with other stone age burials in Finland that have also some small surviving bone fragments and e.g. teeth (that , most of the Tainiaro pits are very similar in size and other characteristics. The authors are careful in considering alternative explanations and do admit that some of the pits could be from habitation or from producing stone tools etc. but that many can be indeed burials. Calling it a cemetery, well it's significant burial area anyway. The site would need to have further excavations and careful analysis of the grave fills to find evidence of burials (biochemical analysis), but alas, funding for archaeological excavations in Finland is pitiful. As for evidence of fire on top or in these pits, it seems to have been a surprisingly prevalent parctise in many stone age or even later graves in Finland. There is a very comprehensive and interesting PhD thesis by Marja Ahola, University of Helsinki (2019) that gives a very good overview of stone age burial practices in Finland. In English, free to read. (helda.helsinki.fi/items/40a37540-6c8d-4d10-9eea-37494465c603) Ahola has also published several papers on this topic. Please also, note that the climate in Northern Finland at the time (4500 BCE) was a lot warmer than it is now. So, it wasn't some sub-Arctic site at the time. I currently live in Oulu, my alma mater was University of Oulu and I was born in Kemijärvi, just north of the Arctic Circle, so I have some interest in this.
A proto harpoon is basically the simple version of the famous Magdalenian harpoons. With less pronounced barbs only on one side. Like an antler point with notches. They are quite rare so always an important find in the study of projectile technology.
Thanks for the news on La Garma guys. It's one of the sites i'm researching and has some interesting marine stuff. Including the only known Gravettian seal tooth: Gravettian Levels E and F; "....with nearly 400 limpets and over 100 periwinkles, although shells and one seal canine at La Garma were perforated and used for ornaments." (Castaños and Álvarez 2013; Gutiérrez Zugasti et al. 2013). Solutrean level: "Artwork made out of Cetacean teeth are present in the Solutrean levels at La Garma A." (Bottlenose dolphin, Tursiops truncatus)" (Esteban ÁLVAREZ-FERNÁNDEZ 2016)In "Papeles del Mupac, No. 1-2019.
Oh my gosh! The film of the residential area is as exciting to me as the temple site. For years I've felt uneasy about the idea that nomadic hunter/gatherers would come together on occasion to build such sophisticated temples for some periodic religious use. It just didn't make sense. Now it does. I also agree that the "temples" must have served many purposes besides religeous, ie community centers, feasting areas, trading centers, market places. Who knows what else? Why do academics forget that humans have not changed that much for many, many thousands of years? This also tells us how fecund that area was at the time to be able to support large numbers of pre-agricultural people all over the place. It seems this was a Garden of Eden so extraordinary the memory of it remaind in our psyces for millenia. A part of me still misses it.
There is a trade in obsidian out of Malta, the surpluses derived for trade likely gave rise to the later Temple builders from around 5,000 BCE. Likely important in the story from GT to Stonehenge, as it part of one of the trade routes using the seaways the other being into Europe using the Danube river.
Are you saving your photography for an upcoming book or something? I was hoping to see a little more of Göbekli Tepe upon your return. take care guys.🧩
As they said before, they were kindly asked to not publicize photographic documentation before the official archaeologists do (as they do in the name of local government)...
Hello, I am from Maine. I have worked with folks from the Azores. I have been developing the idea o lithic literature. It is picture writing that appears to be the precursor to Asian character writing. It is part of human development.
There's an etched design on the surface of stones with copious information. It is easily seen with an artist eye. Put on your rainbow glasses and start looking. This built on Bradley's work from Reading University
The Finnish Arctic "cemetery" pits are more likely to fit comparatively with multi-use, seasonal, food and material cache pits, particularly given material finds and total absence of human remains?
We have to remember that hunter gatherers also modified their environment for their own benefit, through fire, earthworks, selective eradication of certain plants, encouraging others etc as well as herd management through selective hunting. These were far from simple people.
There are too many large settlements in the area to be totally reliant on hunting. The herds would be wiped out before they got to your designated hunting area. They were living in a heavily managed landscape. Herding and farming does not require genetic domestication . It took thousands of years for people to transition from one form of living to the other. This is the transition
The idea that you're too stressed and hungry as a limiting factor in making jewelry isn't all that. All you need is the motivation of a female. Even the idea of one, the brain is rewarded by the anticipation more than the action. I find it difficult not to make the ancients emotional animals primarily, the same as us. We don't ever give them equal footing. It is kinda how we can't really understand the emotional and cognitive world just as complex and petty as ours that exists in all the people we pass. That realization has a word for it I can't remember.
Re Spanish cave 17,000 yrs ago, with abalone “jewelry”: This was height of most recent Pleistocene maximum. Even in northern Spain, what would you be doing in winter? I say, Sitting in a cave keeping my babies as warm as I could, doodling on walls (maybe) to teach kids about those mammoths, aurochs and horses, and even carving on shells (because it’s easier than carving rocks?). Just a guess that “friends” that lived outside of caves, and their kids, just did not make it to leave evidence-including offspring with their DNA.
… as a German Biologist - My Son has ZERO interest in my Experiences Zero Interest in his Grand Parents Lives We are in ever more accelerating Phase Transitions The Last 50 Years are an Explosion in Events Already 2019 before the Pan Demic Appears like a World of Yesterday - Stefan Zweig We romanticize the Past and are inable to live in the present We Self Titanick No traces will be left
Re Finland “village” being Mesolithic HGs or Neolithic farmers: FISHING! (That’s a form of hunting) Why move from a productive spot? Northern ecosystems 6,500 yrs ago would likely not be good farming soils, but yes, they could certainly have settled down to fish. Northern Native American tribes in North America wove nets to catch sufficient fish-not spears or rods with strings.😅
Building a fortification around your Siberian hunter-gatherer settlement doesn't necessarily indicate a defensive structure against other humans. Even nowadays in Siberia people defend their towns against bears and wolves. Especially in bitterly cold winters when they have little alternatives but to raid human settlements. They do so in great numbers and you can't have a bunch of hungry bears running around next to your kids....What are you going to do when they come after your reindeer barbecue? Fight the bears off every time? No...you want a pallisade for sure.
Gday I live in Australia and I’ve truly wondered with prehistoric lines and academic History turning circles apron ones head. The lush rich history that seems to have flourished at the end of the last ice age. The expected drive South through the southern land marks particularly through Indonesia South to the north of Australia with what appears plenty of food. It just doesn’t exist. I often ponder was it the climate the inland on this magnificent continent. It’s very interesting to perhaps giving more sense to much larger structural building and complex community structure than is at current the living arrangements of the inhabitants The Aborigines. Wich must I have had a very Spiritual and wise use of the land in taking what was only needed . It’s absolutely fantastic the past. How I wish I could travel back in time. Lol. Thank you Paddy Australia 🇦🇺👍👍🤔
The funniest thing of all, is two old codgers like you guys, wouldn't have this show, nor the support to travel, if it weren't for the dreamers you laugh at. Subscriber for a year, unsubbed today. Good luck on the hating. No hard feelings.
I’m from Canada and our indigenous west coast lived in settlements and hunted and fished but also planted food bearing trees amongst the forrest . I really don’t think there was a hard line between hunting and farming
Right you are. Most indigenous Americans were casual permaculturists and gardeners. Strangely enough, Poverty Point was probably North America's first agricultural research facility but has absolutely ludicrous "nomadic hunter gatherer" lore spun around it.
Poverty Point was constructed centuries after the first domesticated crops have been identified. but those crops don't appear at Poverty Point, and we don't get agricultural tools there. So you're wrong in two opposite ways. @@zeideerskine3462 We also know from the provenance research on artifacts at Poverty Point that people who traveled there were usually coming from over 5 days journey away.
They also created “clam gardens” on the shoreline to increase clam production. Apparently clams were a winter staple and often steamed in dug pits.
I love watching you two live. Always so much to ponder😊
Great show guys. Thank you for the tour also.
About the Tainiaro findings, have you guys bothered to read the original article and get some context from the articles sited in the paper? The article itself is open access, btw. Bone material very rarely survives in the acidic conditions of ground in Finland. However, in comparison with other stone age burials in Finland that have also some small surviving bone fragments and e.g. teeth (that , most of the Tainiaro pits are very similar in size and other characteristics. The authors are careful in considering alternative explanations and do admit that some of the pits could be from habitation or from producing stone tools etc. but that many can be indeed burials. Calling it a cemetery, well it's significant burial area anyway. The site would need to have further excavations and careful analysis of the grave fills to find evidence of burials (biochemical analysis), but alas, funding for archaeological excavations in Finland is pitiful. As for evidence of fire on top or in these pits, it seems to have been a surprisingly prevalent parctise in many stone age or even later graves in Finland. There is a very comprehensive and interesting PhD thesis by Marja Ahola, University of Helsinki (2019) that gives a very good overview of stone age burial practices in Finland. In English, free to read. (helda.helsinki.fi/items/40a37540-6c8d-4d10-9eea-37494465c603) Ahola has also published several papers on this topic. Please also, note that the climate in Northern Finland at the time (4500 BCE) was a lot warmer than it is now. So, it wasn't some sub-Arctic site at the time. I currently live in Oulu, my alma mater was University of Oulu and I was born in Kemijärvi, just north of the Arctic Circle, so I have some interest in this.
Thank you for that information and the link.
Merry Christmas.
Download, thanks
Thanks for the link !
I was about to write somewhat similar comment about this burial site. Spot on
A proto harpoon is basically the simple version of the famous Magdalenian harpoons. With less pronounced barbs only on one side. Like an antler point with notches. They are quite rare so always an important find in the study of projectile technology.
Thanks for the news on La Garma guys. It's one of the sites i'm researching and has some interesting marine stuff. Including the only known Gravettian seal tooth:
Gravettian Levels E and F; "....with nearly 400 limpets and over 100 periwinkles, although shells and one seal canine at La Garma were perforated and used for ornaments." (Castaños and Álvarez 2013; Gutiérrez Zugasti et al. 2013).
Solutrean level: "Artwork made out of Cetacean teeth are present in the Solutrean levels at La Garma A." (Bottlenose dolphin, Tursiops truncatus)" (Esteban ÁLVAREZ-FERNÁNDEZ 2016)In "Papeles del Mupac, No. 1-2019.
Oh my gosh! The film of the residential area is as exciting to me as the temple site. For years I've felt uneasy about the idea that nomadic hunter/gatherers would come together on occasion to build such sophisticated temples for some periodic religious use. It just didn't make sense. Now it does. I also agree that the "temples" must have served many purposes besides religeous, ie community centers, feasting areas, trading centers, market places. Who knows what else? Why do academics forget that humans have not changed that much for many, many thousands of years? This also tells us how fecund that area was at the time to be able to support large numbers of pre-agricultural people all over the place. It seems this was a Garden of Eden so extraordinary the memory of it remaind in our psyces for millenia. A part of me still misses it.
There is a trade in obsidian out of Malta, the surpluses derived for trade likely gave rise to the later Temple builders from around 5,000 BCE. Likely important in the story from GT to Stonehenge, as it part of one of the trade routes using the seaways the other being into Europe using the Danube river.
Aaron, new Zealand, love you guys
Thanks!
Thanks so much Linda!
Wishing you both a very Happy Xmas and New Year ❤
Are you saving your photography for an upcoming book or something? I was hoping to see a little more of Göbekli Tepe upon your return.
take care guys.🧩
As they said before, they were kindly asked to not publicize photographic documentation before the official archaeologists do (as they do in the name of local government)...
It must be great living in the middle of nowhere. I rather like the pixelated fog idea
Hello, I am from Maine. I have worked with folks from the Azores. I have been developing the idea o lithic literature. It is picture writing that appears to be the precursor to Asian character writing. It is part of human development.
Love this podcast
Water collection designs is a topic on stones using lithic literature. Water was scarce during the ice age
There's an etched design on the surface of stones with copious information. It is easily seen with an artist eye. Put on your rainbow glasses and start looking. This built on Bradley's work from Reading University
The Finnish Arctic "cemetery" pits are more likely to fit comparatively with multi-use, seasonal, food and material cache pits, particularly given material finds and total absence of human remains?
We have to remember that hunter gatherers also modified their environment for their own benefit, through fire, earthworks, selective eradication of certain plants, encouraging others etc as well as herd management through selective hunting. These were far from simple people.
Preach! niche construction is fundamental to foraging economies.
Maybe the neolithic transition was more about the change from getting in your abode through the roof to accessing it from the street? 😁
Ditches are an ideal place for slops! If the pigs eat it then it’s recycling!😊
There are too many large settlements in the area to be totally reliant on hunting. The herds would be wiped out before they got to your designated hunting area.
They were living in a heavily managed landscape. Herding and farming does not require genetic domestication . It took thousands of years for people to transition from one form of living to the other. This is the transition
The idea that you're too stressed and hungry as a limiting factor in making jewelry isn't all that. All you need is the motivation of a female. Even the idea of one, the brain is rewarded by the anticipation more than the action.
I find it difficult not to make the ancients emotional animals primarily, the same as us. We don't ever give them equal footing. It is kinda how we can't really understand the emotional and cognitive world just as complex and petty as ours that exists in all the people we pass. That realization has a word for it I can't remember.
Hungry wife sends husband out for food. Husband comes back with necklace. Wife rolls eyes at husband.
Re Spanish cave 17,000 yrs ago, with abalone “jewelry”: This was height of most recent Pleistocene maximum. Even in northern Spain, what would you be doing in winter? I say, Sitting in a cave keeping my babies as warm as I could, doodling on walls (maybe) to teach kids about those mammoths, aurochs and horses, and even carving on shells (because it’s easier than carving rocks?). Just a guess that “friends” that lived outside of caves, and their kids, just did not make it to leave evidence-including offspring with their DNA.
… as a German Biologist -
My Son has ZERO interest in my Experiences
Zero Interest in his Grand Parents Lives
We are in ever more accelerating Phase Transitions
The Last 50 Years are an Explosion in Events
Already 2019 before the Pan Demic
Appears like a World of Yesterday
- Stefan Zweig
We romanticize the Past
and are inable to live in the present
We Self Titanick
No traces will be left
Re Finland “village” being Mesolithic HGs or Neolithic farmers: FISHING! (That’s a form of hunting) Why move from a productive spot? Northern ecosystems 6,500 yrs ago would likely not be good farming soils, but yes, they could certainly have settled down to fish. Northern Native American tribes in North America wove nets to catch sufficient fish-not spears or rods with strings.😅
Hi guysfrom carrie
Relocate the Prime Meridian NOW
Building a fortification around your Siberian hunter-gatherer settlement doesn't necessarily indicate a defensive structure against other humans. Even nowadays in Siberia people defend their towns against bears and wolves. Especially in bitterly cold winters when they have little alternatives but to raid human settlements. They do so in great numbers and you can't have a bunch of hungry bears running around next to your kids....What are you going to do when they come after your reindeer barbecue? Fight the bears off every time? No...you want a pallisade for sure.
The Borrowers!
Cheeseburger? No thanks, I prefer my Salisbury Plain.
This Finnish place's name is pronounced like "tiny arrow" with an a like in "art"
Or not.🤣
Gday I live in Australia and I’ve truly wondered with prehistoric lines and academic History turning circles apron ones head. The lush rich history that seems to have flourished at the end of the last ice age. The expected drive South through the southern land marks particularly through Indonesia South to the north of Australia with what appears plenty of food. It just doesn’t exist. I often ponder was it the climate the inland on this magnificent continent. It’s very interesting to perhaps giving more sense to much larger structural building and complex community structure than is at current the living arrangements of the inhabitants The Aborigines. Wich must I have had a very Spiritual and wise use of the land in taking what was only needed . It’s absolutely fantastic the past. How I wish I could travel back in time. Lol. Thank you Paddy Australia 🇦🇺👍👍🤔
Birdseye Lens 🤢
The funniest thing of all, is two old codgers like you guys, wouldn't have this show, nor the support to travel, if it weren't for the dreamers you laugh at.
Subscriber for a year, unsubbed today. Good luck on the hating. No hard feelings.
" two old codgers like you guys, wouldn't have this show, nor the support to travel, if it weren't for the dreamers you laugh at."
Goodbye, good riddance
Unsubbed today too, for this same reason.
No ancient storage units?
NEWS FROM PREHISTORY isn't actually an oxymoron micheal. NEWS stands for North East West South nothing to do with being " new" fyi❤