Why I Like Persona in Spite of it Being A JRPG | Extra Punctuation
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- This week on Extra Punctuation, Yahtzee digs into his enjoyment of the Persona series.
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I think we have overlooked the most obvious explanation; that Yahtzee was bitten by a were-weeb at a convention and now has an uncontrollable urge to subject himself to something anime once a month.
That would explain a lot...
*inquisitorial* *hmmmmmming*
Maybe it was a genetically modified weeb. Now he has all the proportional abilities of a weeb. And he has learned that with great power comes great responsibility, so he strives to use his weeb powers for…good.
@@corwin32 "good"
were-weeb.... rofl! instead of a howl, he just lets loose a huge "WRYYYYYYY"
For a moment I was baffled by this idea of two disliked genres somehow redeeming each other through juxtaposition, held together mostly by presentation, but then I realized this is very similar to my relationship with Hades. Despite generally avoiding roguelikes and having no love for the social/VN side of it, alternating between the two proved oddly effective at rounding out each other's edges, and I wouldn't have even tried the game at all if not for its visuals and music.
I guess I understand, is what I'm saying.
me and ff14. dont like mmos dont like final fantasy love 14
There definitely is something very unique about the way the Persona games are deigned that makes that standout give you something that's pretty much impossible to get anywhere else.
This is how I feel about Mario Party. If it was just a luck based dice rolling board game, I would hate it. And I personally don't like playing the minigame modes. But when you combine the two, it's one of my favorite game franchises of all time (ignoring the ones with cars)
this comment might be what finally gets me to download this game and give it a try
@@cipher4e I tried 14, unfortunately I still haven't found an MMO I liked, they're all so dull and samey
Real talk: I wasn't even thinking about who Yahtz would most like to snog until he brought it up.
same
Yea, really, didn't even cross my mind until he started griping about it. It's not really something I think about when playing Persona, I do have a favorite, but I don't really put that much into it when talking/discussing things about the game.
I like yahtz a lot, but it was a tad creepy when I thought about it. I feel like gabe would've piled shit on him if he'd been in the room at time of recording.
I actually expected for him to not address that. Color me surprised.
He has brought it up a couple of times, specially when adressing Persona. He likes the cheery upbeat waifus. His wife is also cheery and upbeat, so he gets a pass on having waifus (or so he says)
"He picked Chie? Yahtzee is a man of culture!" -Me, ignoring the other 6 minutes of this dissection of the Persona games
Yeah, funny, I would have pegged him as more the Makoto type. Or maybe a left-field option like Sayoko or Ichiko, out of spite.
Hmm...Chie or Makoto...? The true dilemma of our time...
@@Zelkiiro Always Makoto! Chie is cool, but she is no post-apocalyptic Bikerchick.
Thankfully they are in different games, so I was able to snog them both.
@@macslate86 Chie is waaaaay more fun than Makoto though. But you're right, they are definitely both the best options of their respective games.
Yeah but have you guys met Risette tho?
"It's Chie!"
This explains many things.
like why he's so correct about everything all the time
TriaaAL OF THE DRAGOOOON!
Shit, I didn't think he'd actually have an answer
Same
Of course he would, Yahtzee is still a man of culture after all
When you play Persona, you have an answer to that question
That setup and punchline at the end was stellar.
And absolutely correct. I love the (post sim, never played the early ones) Persona games, but 4 is still my favorite because it has my favorite characters.
I was sure he was gonna say Yukiko because she was in the video more than other girls, so I didn't expect him of all people to go for the most popular girl.
I saw the punchline as soon as he mentioned the question. Specially knowing that it was Chie.
.
.
.
.
Even if he's WRONG!!
@@icarue993 Because it's Naoto, obviously.
I saw the punchline coming as soon as the rant started, I did NOT expect him to be correct and THAT made me laugh 😂
I always go back to a rule of storytelling:
"A bad story told well will always be infinantly better then a good story told poorly"
Infinitely*
That actually sums persona games pretty well, although if it has good writing that still a good story. Yeah persona 5(even with royal improvements) story is ome of those “the more you think about of it, the more holes you see” and it does go downhill in the second half(with some up like sae and the new final dungeon), but the characters and the way it written does tolerate it lesser bit. You can also said this with strikers.
I'm conflicted, on the one hand, I like this comment because it implies that (base) P5 is/has a bad story, which it does, as you can hardly even call that a "story". On the other hand, it implies that its well told, which it isn't, as it just uses its structure to manipulate audiences that aren't *actively* thinking about the writing *itself* , thus allowing the game to get away with a poorly written/structured "story" that doesn't actually work... Screw it, take a like anyway.
I don't know if I suscribe to this rule, because what is a good or bad story in this sense is relative.
A badly told story is, in most senses, a bad story. No matter how many interesting elements the story has, if it is badly told, it is bad.
While a bad story told well, still can have terrible characters and ideas.
I would say that rather than "bad", mediocre would be a better word for your analogy.
A mediocre story well told will be always better than a story too complex for its own good.
@UCo68uloU3IHNFWxlmA_k4IA the messuring stick for me is as follows
The Star Wars prequels: on paper, lots of intrige and below the surface tension, quesions of ideas of loyalty and revisionism within history and interesting setting: AWFUL STORY!
Madmax: generic grundge dude on the lamb with a broody action girl in post apolxolips desert: incredible energy and fun story everystep of the way even if the base is a generic
Not gunna lie, a Doom/The Sims crossover idea actually sounds genuinly good. You just have to get the balance between it becoming tower/home defence and actually venturing out to defeat the devil and that would be a game I'd buy and play.
Isn’t that what Deadly Premonition was attempting? Like, on the surface your some investigator person and go about your day talking to people, looking for clues, driving around while the player character talks at the player about American pop culture, and then every once and a while you head to some nether realm with zombies and hellfiends to find that one missing link in your investigation, shooting at any opposition. Or am I totally misunderstanding SWERY’s vision?
It unintentionally and coincidentally makes the idea of Doom/Animal crossing crossover sound better
Good news! State of Decay is literally this. Down to the need to sleep.
"home defence and actually venturing out to defeat the devil "
Persona 3 in a nutshell
I can see the potential there as well. I wonder if The Sims' game engine is capable of creating first person shooter-like games. Such a game would need an engine that is good at creating believable suburban spaces, interactive environments and NPCs, satisfying weapons and shooting mechanics, formidable demons, and hellish dungeons worth exploring. It would be similar to Diablo, only this time you'd have to protect your home in the middle of the night in between exploring Hell. You'd have to buy the right equipment and traps from the hardware store to protect your home, and lie in wait like Conan the Barbarian or Ash Williams before the demons attack. Even neighbors or relatives could be potential enemies in such a game. I could see this game idea potentially working as a GZDoom or Doom 3 mod.
I introduced my daughter to Persona 4 Golden. She quickly realized the power of the rainy day beef bowl challenge as the ultimate way to boost social stats. When it came to choosing a waifu, she asked if it was possible to date a beef bowl instead.
Naturally, I told her that dating steak-obsessed Chie was the next best thing.
Honestly though that may work better than apple pie.
You've never had sex in your life and you definitely don't have a daughter.
Essentially, he likes Personna because all the elements of the game are connected with each other which enhance the experience rather than having each one be an individual piece completely separate from one another.
In other words... it's a well designed game
Technically, he didn't say he liked the games because the different parts interconnected, just that they were there. Not trying to be trite. I genuinely think that might be Yahtz's takeaway. Obviously it's better if they connect diagetically, in general.
Kinda sounds like the opposite of his feelings on modern open world games. So many mechanics and combat styles that could each carry a game on their own but never really gel together. Unfocused and shallow with a lot of variety but not much depth.
(PS, I felt the impulse to add "unlike your mother's vagina" after depth, as I feel Yahtzee would have.)
@@codyramsey7217 He did say that wouldn't like the individual parts of the game if they stood alone.
He liked them because they weren't. Each parts work in conjunction with one another and don't feel like separate systems. Hence his comparison at 5:55
RelaxAlax had a very very similar video essay on why he loved P5. I'm not accusing Yahtzee of plagiarism but i am accusing him of being Alax
The greatest designed games, objectively.
I think the Persona games are also addicting for roughly the same reason Civilization is. There are a lot of cyclical progression systems in play, so you're always accomplishing *something.* You've got short-term goals (making a new Persona), mid-term goals (beating this month's boss), and long-term goals (snogging your waifu). You've always got a reason to play one more day, one more day.
I remember my first Persona game Persona 5 I found it overwhelming at first with everything. Especially the time limit thoughout the game but got the hang of and now it my top 3 all time favorite games
How to tell someone has never played Persona 1 or 2 in their entire lifetime: make a comment like your’s thinking that Persona 4 and 5 are representative of the entire series as if Persona has always been that way! Seriously if you played the first two Persons titles people like you and Yahtzee would be in for a serious rude awakening!
@@xeoverse8770 Not sure why you felt the need to clarify that old games are old, but whatev. When people talk about Persona today, they're going to be talking about the gameplay style in 3-5. But if you really prefer the old ones, you do you.
@ci7210 that's interesting, I've always been interested in persona and I think I'm finally going to bite the bullet with P3 reloaded, but the way you describe it is like how civilization is for me.
At first it was overwhelming and I didn't like it, but once I learnt the basics it became so engrossing
Don't worry, Yahtz, "weeb" won't ever become a slur. Unless they take over one day, in which case the status of the word "weeb" will be the _least_ of our problems.
The non weebs will be forced down to gacha mines to mine vouchers/prisms/shards or whatever ten thousandth variation of any given waifu bucks is the most popular at the Time.
👹
Oh... we're infiltrating the world top ranks, to create a cabal who will rule the world in our, no, waifu jpg image!!.... You just wait...
I mean 'weeaboo' was coined on a website devoted to anime by anime nerds and immediately embraced by them as a self-deprecating joke, I think he's safe.
@@ItsAweeb a fate worse than death.
Weebs would never get rid of the word weeb, it's like a badge of honour.
You and Jeff Gerstmann have that in common then. Back in 2009 watching him slowly going from mocking Persona 4 to loving both it and Chie was a trip.
DUUUUUDE, that series was what got me into Persona 4. I`ll never forget when he and Vinny decided to summon satan. Ah good times.
"I cast bufu when I shouldn't"
Man, that endurance run was truly great.
Jeff Gerstmann... there's a name I haven't heard in a decade... and could gladly go another few decades without ever hearing again.
The Endurance run got me to buy Persona 4. It's why I think it's nuts when a company tries to shut down Let's Play's, because there is no way that I would have ever played Persona 4 until I saw somebody else have fun with it.
@@TehAwesomer kinda curious what's the issue with Jeff Gerstmann. Seems like an ok guy, still listen the the Bombcast and haven't heard anything bad about the man.
This makes me wonder if there's a market for a Spiderman game where half of it is trying to make sure you get to all your classes without falling asleep because you spent too much time beating up bad guys. Or maybe a 'realistic' army game where you spend 95% of it in a desert trucking simulator moving base to base doing maintenance, and 5% getting shot at while you desperately call for help over the radio.
There's definitely a market for both of those lmao
Wasn't that one of his main complaints about Eve Online though? I guess it could work in a singleplayer setting but idk.
Spiderman 2 almost did that
@@goldenhorde6944 Isn't Eve Online successful though? Is that really a good comparison?
Basically a post dad game with some shooting
To me what separated Persona 5 Royal from other Jrpgs is how the life sim aspect is handled, you have the freedom to do whatever you want, you can either explore a dungeon to progress the story, bonding with a character, do some side quests at mementos or use that spare time to improve your character stats, it’s an extremely addictive gameplay loop that is handled incredibly well, don’t get me wrong I love the story, dungeon design and combat of the game but the life sim is what truly glues it together.
Yeah Persona is a series that is much better than the sum of its parts. The moment to moment gameplay rather than the whole package.
The fact also that you have the option to do basically nearly anything you wanna do on that day but you are also under a limit of how many days you have spare to actually do those things also adds a weirdly intersting aspect of time management that can get flipped on its head without warning.
You might be thinking that your plan is to spend the afternoon hanging out with Ryuji to get your rank with his social link up but then surprise!, you just got a call from the flower shop you sometimes work at and they're asking you if you have time to work that afternoon, which not only earns more pay but also gives a chance of increased Kindness stats improvement, which you know you need to rank up another social link your working on.
Decisions decisions decisions.
Yeah that never happened to me
I basically just stopped working after I got the requests or Yoshida since money isn’t really important if you go to mementos somewhat regularly for the requests and selling off all the loot
I felt the same way with Yakuza: Like a Dragon.
I’ve always had a soft spot for genres that are traditionally fantasy/science-fiction taking place in a contemporary setting. And I liked how they would take elements of the genre and figured out a way to integrate it into real life, like the FF job system taking place in an unemployment office and the wacky stuff being the hallucinations of a schizophrenic who loves Dragon Quest.
He didn't mention it here but his gateway drug to weeb shit was Yakuza 4.
Even small things like material hunting and crafting are given a fun spin such as going to a bar tender who's a cook on the side to make healing items from plants you gather. Also loved how three of the main party members are middle age/over the hill men and the women are in their mid-late 20s. Have to admit I was a Yakuza and Dragon Quest fan for a long while before Yakuza 7 came out, but hey they made the game for me it feels like.
I also picked up Like a Dragon on a deep sale because Ichiban seemed like a buffoon from what I'd seen, didn't expect to like it, but it ended up becoming my favourite Yakuza game. The juxtaposition between the familiar daily misery of most of its characters and Ichiban's boneheaded optimism and tireless energy really clicked together wonderfully.
@@Carnagath82 Yeah, That game was one of the biggest surprises I had in gaming for a while.
I remember jokingly saying, "Yakuza: Like a Dragon is better than Cyberpunk," because Cyberpunk got delayed again as it was set to release the same day. Little did I know how true that statement would turn out to be.
Y7 (Like a Dragon) cut out everything about the Yakuza series that I didn't like and replaced it with stuff I love.
Persona 5 was the game that made me realize that middle-aged people with sad backstories are actually more interesting to talk to than highschoolers whining about highschooler drama all day. Because yeah, hanging out with an ex-Yakuza who's trying to raise a child on his own but is haunted by his past is kind of more interesting than helping out a girl whining about her mom rigging all her mahjong matches behind the scenes.
Hell, Yoshida's social link is at least to me, unironically one of the most compelling sidestories in Persona 5.
That's also the same reason that the Yakuza games are awesome, except you get to play as the ex-yakuza who's trying to raise a child on his own while being haunted by his past.
Persona 3 had a few duds but the most "middle aged people with shit lives" stories.
@@nathank2289 not enough people talk about Mutatsu and that makes me sad. I loved the hell outta his SL, and he'd be my favorite if Akinari wasn't a thing.
Sounds like you'd LOVE Yakuza: Like a Dragon if you haven't already played it, because it's exactly that.
"the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts"
A wonderful aspect of videogames is that it has a lot of "parts" that get "summed", you can still love a game despite completely despising the primary gameplay loop, it's much harder other media to pull this off, though not impossible.
Honestly me with souls games (heretical I know)
@@HxH2011DRA I've played pretty much every souls game and love pretty much everything about them but I wouldn't call that heretical or wrong in any capacity (though hardcore gatekeepers probably would). Souls games have a lot of good stuff in them, so it makes sense for some people to enjoy parts of them while not being big fans of others.
Yeah whenever I think of a level in Dark Souls I almost always think "ugh I hate this area it sucks" despite absolutely loving the game
This is what he liked about XCOM: Enemy Unknown as well.
@@RedRocky54 Exactly! Somehow it's like two thirds of the areas and yet you're still on a third playthrough, if not more
I really want to thank you Yahtzee because if I hadn’t been swayed by your review I wouldn’t have shelled out for a PS4 and fallen madly in love with this series
If there was ever a game that vaguely justifies the ridiculous trope of "Wanna play? Then buy this console", it's Persona 5. And then you get to play Persona 5 Royal and Bloodborne as a bonus! Disgaea 5 too, only that's on Steam now with all the DLCs and stuff, so questionable whether it counts. Metal Gear Solid V, too, now... we live in an exciting new age that's _almost_ moved past "Buy our sold-at-a-loss console so that we can then sell you enough games to make back the money we wouldn't lose in the first place if we just put our games on PC" business.
@@hazukichanx408 I bought a PS4 for P5, and I kept using it for Ghost of Tsushima, Spoodermin, and God of War
@@icedragonair *cough Emulators cough*
I literally bought a PS Vita purely to play P4G. It was 100% worth it.
@@hazukichanx408MGS V wasn't PS4 exclusive, it released on Xbox one
It is fascinating how Persona embodies the concept of "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts." There's pros and cons to all the different moving parts, and on paper for some one like Yahtzee, those different parts put together would make you think he'd turn his nose up at it to avoid vomiting on his shoes. But in practice, all the different aspects meld in such a way that they actually compliment each other and cover each others' weaknesses - not unlike the characters themselves from the rpg-gameplay side of things. Just a fascinating bit of discourse altogether, really.
There's actually a word for something that is "greater than the sum of it's parts": Gestalt.
So what you're saying is you can replicate "The Persona Experience" by playing Animal Crossing for 30 minutes then switching to Doom for another 30 minutes then repeat the process for 60 hours.
The crossover is coming. Too many have asked.
Yes, but whenever you talk to Isabelle you get a ability in doom that allows you to kill enemy’s by using her fishing rod
I always knew Yahtz would like Persona because of his focus in "ludo-narrative synchronicity". It's like his review of MGS5 where he expresses joy over how all of its loops sync with each other. Persona's life sim syncs up very well with its JRPG bit so it makes sense that it appeals to him.
“It’s Chie!”
And suddenly I have a whole new level of respect for Ben “Yahtzee” Croshaw. Best girl is very MUCH best girl.
There's no contest, not even close.
Wrong obviously it's Tamaki Uchida!
And Im "not" just saying this just because for some odd reason in my retro gaming phase Shin Megami Tensei: if... became the first game of the whole larger franchise for me.
I mean she's not an romantic option but that only makes her better.
@@wolvie90I dunno man... Naoto tho.
The Sims + Doom thing sounds interesting. I'd play that.
I think Animal Crossing / Doom is the hybrid game the industry is too cowardly to attempt.
I had the same thought. Reminds me a bit of the original ActRaiser, where you swapped between a side-scroller action game and a top-down town manager.
@@Vilamus Dungeon Keeper two was an isometric base building/resource management game where you could use a spell to go into the body of one of your creatures to lead them into combat.
If the series had continued and *expanded" on that idea, we could have really had something special I think.
Going from overhead all seeing God to 1st person "in the shit" is an amazing feeling not a lot of games have captured... except for that mod that combines CK3 and Mount and Blade.
A lot of people would do that, yes.
The Cult of the Lamb would be sth like that, it seems, roguelike dungeon crawling mixed with building a sweet rocking base for increasing amounts of followers.
+ 100 points for the academic dissection of how two competing primary gameplay loops can strengthen a game's whole greater than the sum of its parts.
- 100 points for not picking the true best girl to snog, which is obviously Naoto.
The main plot of Persona 5 devolving into an anti-climax of JRPG tropes is honestly why the Royal rerelease practically replaces the original version in my mind. While the original ending is still there and it is still as underwhelming as ever, the new final arc refocused itself on the characters and crafts a much less black and white conflict to orient the themes of rebellion and self-actualization around while keeping the wider scope befitting of a finale. It's nothing groundbreaking storywise but it is way more in keeping with what myself and many others liked about the earlier parts of the game.
Well said. I still enjoyed the original P5 don’t get me wrong, but it was only after playing Royal on a whim last year that P5 went from being my least favorite Persona (of the ones I’ve played) right up to the top of the list.
@@s.silverman9864 If only P5R didn't sacrifice any semblance of difficulty. If you are looking for exciting JRPG combat with ANY difficulty, P5 is sooo much better. Why couldn't we have P5 mechanics, P5R plot :(
@@MrSmokinDragon Really??????
@@MrSmokinDragon Its been a while since I played the original but I don’t recall it being especially difficult either.
Regardless I can see where you’re coming from but I’ve never been overly concerned with a games difficulty, though I have to agree that beating the final boss in only a couple of moves does ruin the moment somewhat.
@@s.silverman9864 Sure, you can grind and make the game easy even in P5, but let us take Merciless mode in both versions, the presumably hardest difficulty setting: In P5, you only get 40% experience and yen, while you in P5R get 120% of normal. This makes it so that in P5 you are always severely underlevelled and with too few resources.
In P5R you will typically reach lvl 13 by the time you face Kamoshido, when you get to the treasure in one day, while in P5 you will have to grind and manage your resources extremely well if you want to face him even at lvl 8 (and finish the palace in a day). I can reliably take him at lvl 7 (app. 75% of the time), but at lvl 6 (app. the level you will reach the treasure on if you single-day it without clever grinding) I have succeeded only once.
This aspect is completely gone in P5R, Merciless difficulty is a joke and so many other changes to combat mechanics, like Showtime, improved technical damage, more ammo, and better chaining of One Mores make combat, even at the highest difficulty, trivial. Might as well just set it to Story and get it over with faster...
The Ending of this video is a proof that Yahtzee, despite sometimes presenting the exact opposite, has an immaculate taste.
Chie….. dang, I’m so glad Yahtzee is a man of culture
I do find it cool that he's willing to try things outside of his comfort zone, and even cooler when he finds the exception to his own personal preference rule.
right? like when valkyria chronicles and xcom got him into turn-based strategy, or when he got weirdly into that tom clancys h.a.w.x. thing.
I can find nothing wrong with this video.
Also love calling out Nick like that, it was great.
“It’s Chie!”
I always knew Yahtz was a truly cultured individual. But now I have undeniable proof.
but naoto tho
The thing about JRPGs, which was pointed out in this video, is that most of them are really ambitious in scope that they shove in so much in terms of content ideas and gameplay elements.
This is where the individual's interest becomes make or break: if the elements don't gel into a cohesive whole for the player, it comes off as bloated and messy. But if each of the elements manage to resonate with the player, the sheer amount of content gives them the video game equivalent of a sugar rush, resulting in the dedicated (or even obsessed) fanbases of these series.
I love when my opinion happens to line up exactly with Yahtz's; Chie reigns supreme
It seems Yahtzee has the misconception that what's "representative of anime" are just battle shonen, which is only the subset of anime targeted at young/teenage males
TBH it’s heavily pushed on the western market that people can be forgiven for thinking anime is just shonen
@@Tomasin19 What? Who said anything about Persona? (and shojo and hentai lol)
90% of anime fandoms can be sumarised into:
-shonen fans
-slice of life fans
-male gaze fantasy izekai fans
Most of these not only suck but also literally copy from eachother to make the most bland product posible.
I'm sure he's perfectly aware that anime is a huge an diverse medium, but that point isn't exactly joke material.
Really well said!
In a sega-adjacent version of this, I ended up really getting into the Yakuza / RGG series because of the mixture of gameplay and leisure time, despite not liking action / beat 'em up games.
Even Y7/LAD's more traditional rpg grind gets a lot more fun when you know there's a bunch of other stuff you can do when you need a break. (And I personally think it has one of the best stories in the series) a good balance of variety really helps through those hours of jrpg slog.
I came from the opposite end myself, got into Yakuza first, then I found Persona. Exact same reasons.
I think what appeals to Yahtzee in these games is the sort of absurdism of their premises. You got these stories featuring heroes who in one minute are regular anime schoolchildren going about their daily lives and then immediately falling into some psychedelic realm to use the power of friendship to kill God or you got these hardcore gangsters who act as if they're in a dramatic opera one moment, then kicking peoples teeth in, and then managing a bar and patrons. You got these wildly distinct themes all wrapped up into one thing, and I think maybe that's what appeals to him.
Personally I found the two series in very different times of my life and very seperatelly (to the point where I didn't even know both were Sega). I first played the original Yakuza 1 in all it's english dub glory around 2010 on my ps2, followed by the second game. While only finding Persona trough the year Golden came out and seeing a youtuber I like playing it. And it's thanks to P4G that I got into the mainline series which I so love.
Dang I'm looking for more games or media like this. The juxtaposition of the bizarre and mundane is exactly how I described my favorite things.
@@hanthony This might sound kinda crazy but I think you might enjoy the weird world of Battle Chef Brigade then. It's a match 3 cooking game, where you have to hunt the food you cook. Not in a monster hunter style mind you. It's hard to explain but the games treat everything with such mundane levity that you can't help but feel at ease with the world of these chefs that cook up monsters they kill with their own hands. I think you'll enjoy it, especially once the story kicks up.
Lol. I remember when I commented about how P4G was special because Yahtzee finished it before P5 and people argued about it thinking that i made it up despite the fact that Yahtzee mentioned it in passing in one of his streams. Glad to see I was right all along.
P4G was one incredible game, I came across it on the VITA way back when and bought it on a lark and it was such a lovely experience
As someone who’s first persona tomance was chie, I feel very validated by this video. Also, very well put together theory yatz, but mostly thanks for validating my teenage choices.
Okay, but now all I want is the same level of in-depth dissection applied to why Yahtzee is in the Chie camp.
I really liked this analysis. Having just finished persona 4 for the first time, I can definitely see the idea that certain games are great because they're not afraid to mix up the gameplay elements. It doesn't always work (see stealth section in Spiderman games), but sometimes it can do wonders to make a game worth playing. Makes me wish developers would try blending games a bit more.
Spiderman used the kitchen sink method, though. Many games just stick gimmicks in, appearing once in tutorial hell, and then disappearing.
Persona has distilled and balanced its elements a bit better ✌
@@thegamethemovie9605 True. That's probably why the release dates between persona 4 and 5 were so long. It takes time to make such high quality products and find the right balance of life simulator vs dungeon crawler.
Good point, though I don’t completely agree with it applying to Spider-Man.
have you played persona 5? ive never played any of them, but i often consider jumping in with either 4 or 5.
@@chronicbrightside8757 I've played both Persona 5 and the upgraded version Persona 5: Royal. Both are excellent and worth the time, though I will say Royal is definitely better, with additional NPCs to bond with and some minor annoyances from the original game fixed and improved upon.
Yahtzee is doing the "not a furry" thing where the more you look at a thing the more you find things you like but keep saying that you like but keep saying you don't like it until you have to admit to yourself that you might actually like it and are the thing feared the most
Tsundere furry
Like the relationship mlp fans had to go through as their fandom mysteriously got overrun by them and they went from being the butt of all jokes to pulling the fandom strings, the weeb influence has cracked through yahtzee
@@Snoop_Dugg tsundurry
Is there a word for becoming immersed in a new fandom like that but never really "buying in" to the core of it?
Because, look: there are some people who repress shit and then become the most converted thing you've ever seen, but then again there are also people who just dislike things and then even when convinced to like some of the things, they still dislike things broadly. I have had that happen to me; if anything, I get _frustrated_ that I can't "get into" the thing more. Everyone else is having a good time, weebing out, or having a fursuit orgy at the con, or trading their shitty fanfics, or whatever it is, and you'll be sitting there not wanting to ruin anyone's fun, but not having much yourself. Because you're really only there for the handful of things you like, and they bought the deluxe platinum edition of liking things.
I also think it has layers like I'm attracted to certain things up to a point and that's fine not really a furry but it's the mental patient weirdos who live for the garbage make it their personality or are pretending to be and want to boink full on animals need the noose.
I respect the chie answer because when i played 4 she was my first choice why? Because she was easy, she was always available, and we had matching bowl cuts. Cant beat that kind of fashions statement baby.
Chie is unironically a popular pick because she's so much more relatable and so much LESS high maintenance. It's that "girl next door" charm
@@HouseLyrander She's also the earliest love interest with the most early exposure, due to Yukiko getting sidelined by the time gate of the first dungeon. In this case, I think it's the "first girl wins" trope in actual effect.
That said, I personally went with Rise on my first playthrough, and did the same on my first run of Golden on the PC, because she's the only character who seems to have a crush on the MC by default. I also liked her quite a bit, though her whole idol-identity plot was admittedly much less relatable than Chie's personal plot.
That said, you really can't go wrong in this game. Even Ebi is fine once you peel back a couple of her layers.
@@duncanohoge I think it's all about how much time the character has to establish themselves early on. In the case of P4, Chie is introduced alongside Yukiko, but the latter is held back by her being the first rescue target, while Chie is in the party since practically the beginning, so she gets much more exposure. Because of this, it makes a lot of sense to go for her. This also gives her the smoothest and most natural from-friend-to-lover arc out of all the girls, which also helps.
Naoto kind of suffers from the reverse of this. She's arguably the most interesting character out of all the potential live interests, but she gets introduced so late, the player had likely already settled on another girl by then.
Honestly... I didn't want to romance any character in P4.
They all gave more of a "friend" vibe than a "love interest" one.
In the same vein, I couldn't really want to romance any P3 girl. The tone of the game made me want to keep it professional.
On the other side, I would romance any P5 girl. Except Ann, she doesn't work for me
Holy shit! I can't believe Yahtzee actually knows who best girl truly is!
This is also why the only JRPGs I've whole-heartedly fallen in love with have been Super Mario RPG and Lufia II. They're both crammed full of enough other stuff that you don't just have to do the JRPG stuff all the time. In Mario RPG it's isometric platforming and weird minigames and a few scattered puzzles and so on. In Lufia II it's full-on Zelda dungeon-crawling with loads of puzzles, plus there's like, a whole entire roguelike in there just because they could? So yeah, basic JRPG gameplay appears to only be good if you dump in so many spices that you can hardly taste the core ingredients anymore.
Yes! And honestly, the ending of Lufia II is probably the most emotionally impacted I've ever been by a video game. And Super Mario RPG is just so much god damn fun. It's so unique in the Mario universe. I'm still angry theyve never brought Geno into Smash.
4:56 what did she ever do to you Yahtzee? Jeez man
All of these comments being about him picking Chie are just proving his point.
I think a big part of it for me is the way all the systems interact that keeps it engaging. The JRPG combat isn't necessarily challenging but the challenge comes from resource management that way you can spend as few days in the dungeon as possible and spend more time in the Life sim, and in the life sim you want to make the most productive use of your time and prioritize Slinks which will help with clearing the dungeons faster. They're two very different systems but they both blend together perfectly and keep you constantly thinking and optimizing. Plus like you said the two together stops each individual half of the game from becoming too exhausting
I wonder if it also helped that he played the games over the course of months. Not every piece of media is meant to be binged. The appetizer sampler of Persona gameplay is good for dropping in, feeling like you got something done, and moving on with your life.
Honestly, games that successfully mix multiple genres like that seem to be Yahtzee's jam, when they're done right. The XCOM games come to mind as something with a similar blend, just with two completely different genres.
Me: "Kanji?"
Yahtzee: "Chie!"
Me: "Goddammit"
I think one thing that helps is how the "time limit" of the real world portion makes the RPG portion less grindy. While there is still grinding, they have to balance it around the fact that the player has limited resources and a stricter time-frame because the life-sim part helps you with the rpg part. It's also more linear and story driven with a new dungeon to explore every few "weeks" to prevent some of the repetitiveness of other rpgs. While rpgs are arguably always "story driven", activities take real in-game time so the main plot can't be pushed off if you continue playing normally.
I've been playing Fire Emblem 3 Houses recently, and I think part of the appeal is also a juxtaposition of "life sim" and alongside its tactical battles. Also, a ton of characters... probably to many characters. Many very "waifu" indeed, though half are men.
Give Rune Factory 4 or 5 a try next. Same idea just replace the SRPG with a JRPG and some farming sim on the side.
"It's Chie!"
Oh well gosh darn I guess the term opposites attract may ring some truth after all!
(Also same, my good Yahtz, sir)
I really feel like there's a missing component to this whole thing which is the characters. I find them so incredibly endearing despite their general tropiness that it is a massive part of the hook for me. Also, the writing for those characters is always top notch with Atlus games.
I'm reminded of Yukiko's story. It was very unique. She starts off feeling trapped in a life she never chose, taking care of her family business. She grows as a person and discovers that she has options, that with some effort she could make her own way out in the world. But in the end she realizes that her family business is something that she wants to run. That not only is it a responsibility that she wants to carry it's something that she has a talent for and that, most importantly, she wants to do. It was a fresh take on a story that usually goes two other ways. You either get a story about how someone should forge their own path or how they should respect tradition.
@@planguy9575 It's also pretty interesting that this idea that Yukiko only wants to run away because the family business is being forced on to her (even though she wants to do it) is reflected in her dungeon, where she takes the form of a bird that closes its own cage. Persona really manages their characters well for the most part
I feel that the word 'trope' gets a bad rap personally. I don't think there's anything wrong with characters fitting into archetypes so long as they either embody it really fucking well or it's used as a launching point for the rest of their character.
I think switching between them would get really annoying if it was a 10 minutes of story, 10 minutes of combat kind of switching. But I like that you get through like, 10 hours of story/life sim and then 10 hours of combat. You really get to immerse yourself in each one and then just as you're about to get really sick of it, you switch to the other.
EDIT: And now I have played Hades, which has disproved the above point entirely. Apparently I can switch between combat and visual novel every 25 minutes or so and it’s delightful.
I like how Yahtzee is open to trying anime stories even tho he recognizes a lot of the characters are worn out archetypes and how so many female characters are just written for fetish reasons not actual character development. It’s how I feel myself as someone who watches a couple anime shows but isn’t a big fan of the whole genre
"and how so many female characters are just written for fetish reasons not actual character development."
I mean surely there are exceptions to this right..right?
@@duncanohoge Yeah but there probably is a definite list of them. What do you think would be part of that list?
I feel like these issues can apply to anything, especially the use of worn-out archetypes. These issues aren’t exclusive to Japan. Kind of overblown issues too.
@@TheBlueLink3 What do you mean by overblown exactly?
@@interdimensionaldeity1312 google exists
I really do think that the blend between fantasy and typical daily life is what really makes these games special. They add weight and meaning to each other in ways Both sections couldn’t on their own. The real world bits really flesh out the themes and characters, and make the world feel alive and real. The fantasy aspects give the tedium of daily life real weight as it often has direct impact on the fantasy side.
I’d argue it’s one of the best examples of gameplay emphasizing story, where despite being many things, it feels like a singular product due to the insane amount of cohesion between the many different moving parts.
"Its a good story well told, at least at first. But that's the part that gets you hooked so you don't mind as much when it takes a dip later."
Ah yes, the every anime-adjacent property thing, where it starts out interesting before about halfway through taking an absolute nosedive into the pavement
I don’t really agree with that.
@@TheBlueLink3 it's not a hard and fast rule sure, but its shockingly common
@@ratbaby3107 Not really.
The twin gameplay loops model is also the reason I can play XCOM 2 for 12 hours at a time. I go through the strategic layer so I can build fun toys that I look forward to using on the tactical layer, and while there I collect corpses and doodads and then I look forward to seeing what gizmos I can make out of them on the strategic layer.
I definitely agree, the way the gameplay bounces from one mode to the other and the player being in control of that is great. Basically Persona is the best JRPG for people who don't like JRPGs. Btw fortunately Persona 5 Royal now ends with a more satisfying arc than "power of friendship kills god"
Yeah it may seem that going to life sim to spirit ass kicking may not work well and come across as gameplay whiplash, but it works as the social stuff gives you breathing room from the fighting, while gameplay stuff hypes you again when the social stuff is getting slow.
I thought the original P5 still had a very satisfying end. It’s more than just the power of friendship anyway.
i have to agree with Yahtzee here, my first exposure to the SMT series was Nocturne and god i hate grinding before Matador shows up and hands me my ass with full crit Andalucia. It's basically a change of pace all the way, a change of pace so jarring but well told and well executed that keeps me going in Persona 3 FES and now here i am becoming a fan of both SMT and Persona and able to appreciate both styles.
It reminds me of what you said about the XCOM games, that the management and tactical layers really played off each other well to create an altogether more engaging experience.
Wow some one actually elaborates on their thoughts for real I appreciate it
....See, now I /really/ want a Sims/Doom hybrid game.
That actually does sound really fun and appealing.
I honestly expected him to say that was just Minecraft for a half second.
It's always Chie on the first playthrough, then Naoto on the second.
Ah, I see you're a man of culture as well
A game can't be all peak or all valley all the time. You need to get a good rhythm going for them to work.
this is similar to how Mario Party works: neither the board game nor the minigames are very interesting on their own, but if you put them together you get something good
Persona 5 and Royal were my first JRPG and it’s what got me into the genre. Now I’m playing FFX and I’m loving that game thanks to Persona 5. Persona and Resident Evil even revived a love for gaming in me again.
Persona was just a breath of fresh air for me in what felt like a run of samey games for me. It’s story and especially it’s message in the end also helped me when I was in a rough moment of my life.
Curiously, it was the same reason why Yahtzee enjoyed the Attack on Titan game. It has both grindy action and life sim but you can use one half to look forward to doing the other without getting sick of either
Games with alternating genres are neat. One part acts as a change of pace for the other part, so you can go into the second part refreshed and ready to enjoy a different change of pace, which lets you go back into the first part refreshed again, and the cycle repeats
I totally get the whole "needing a break" from one part of the game. I played P5 first, and then P4 after, and although P% is objectively better in pretty much every regard, I actually prefer P4...
But, the actual dungeons of P4 are awful. While playing them, I mostly just wanted to finish and get back to the life sim/story. But as soon as I was back in that, I had an urge to go fight some monsters in a dungeon. And I REALLY like this game, so how come I don't like either of the two main parts of it's game? (although I did love the story to be fair, but still) It's really odd.
And both are inferior to 3! :)
@@nahte123456 Alright, this is driving me crazy, I feel like I'm among the infinitesimal minority that did not enjoy Persona 3. Admittedly, I haven't finished it, but that was just because I was bored out of my skull with it.
I think I got about halfway through the game. And, in talking with others, I realized that I didn't really space out my visits to Tartarus well. I found Tartarus to be as dull as vanilla P5's Mementos. But I was okay with Mementos because it wasn't really a main part of the game (for most of the game, at least). But with P3, Tartarus is the only place you can fight Shadows (with exception to the boss Shadows every full moon), and it's just dull to me that that's the only place the JRPG fighting happens. So, I would wait until I had nothing to do in the life sim half, and then go to Tartarus.
So, I accept that I did that wrong, but every time I try to go back to P3 to play it, it usually doesn't last long, because I have far more interesting games to play. I mean, the story of P3 is pretty interesting, and I definitely want to continue it to find out the mystery, but it seems like each plot point is too far away from the next. Even the Social Links are only mildly interesting to me.
I'm also playing the PSP version, which I've heard cut out a lot of the animated cutscenes in favor of more of a visual novel style. But the problem with playing the PS2 version, I've heard, is that you don't get to directly control your party members. That was a "cool feature" they implemented in the PSP version. But, yeah, I don't know if playing the PSP version is the best way to play.
So, I'm left wondering, what the hell am I missing? What is so great about P3?
@@Tryforce8000 I mean first thing's first, you seem to be wrong about how people think about P3. It is not as universally beloved as you imply. P4 tends to be the big one the fans love.
Ad if you don't like it that's fine. I was mostly joking after all, taste isn't objective.
For Tartarus, I mean I like JRPG's. I don't mean that as some kind of insult or obvious thing, I mean I play them because I like the games themselves, not just the story or whatever. I spent hours in Tartarus because I wanted to mess around, not because I had to, I'm someone that doesn't like how Final Fantasy is going for instance because I want that traditional battle style back.
So I can't help much with that. But after the first like 2 blocks you should be able to go through Tartarus in only like 3 visits max, and easily in 1 once you get good.
For plot points being spread further apart, of course. The plot of P3 is much more serious and grim, remember Apathy Syndrome is basically death and you see the inflicted throughout exploring, the Dark Hour is the real world, if you die your corpse will be found by normal people, and yeah we see several normal people die thanks to it. The plot is spread out because the atmosphere is telling it. Go to your P3 file and just wander around talking to everyone, you'll see at least a few people with Apathy Syndrome and other people scared by it, you are watching people die in front of you THAT is the plot.
To contrast to P4(so I don't have to make this comment even longer with all 3 games at once), between Kidnappings nothing is happening in Inaba, so you need plot points pretty often. In P3 every day someone else is dying or getting sick, and every day you aren't getting stronger you are helping less people. In P4 after saving Yukiyo and before Kanji is taken nothing happens, in P3 after the Train and before the whole Fuuka thing happens, multiple people die because there wasn't a Persona user there at that moment.
P3 social links tend to follow this pattern. They don't normally have the same large emotional beats but are more constant showings of these characters troubles. They are people dealing with troubles in life, normally badly, and just need a friend to get their life back on track. And maybe that doesn't appeal to you as much, that's fine, but they are very complete looks at these people and how they simply don't know what's best for them. Even jokes like Kenji, the often dislikes Nozomi, or the seemingly fine Yuko all have these problems.
I prefer Portable. The idea was to make it more realistic. If you and 3 buddies had to go out and hunt a bear you couldn't tell them what to do every second. Now you can set different "Tactics" every turn for them to generally follow. It works, mostly. Some things are easier in P3P but it does also rebalance other things to make them more freeing.
So in summary, if you like these characters, this setting, that's what you need. The story won't carry you because the story IS the characters. In P4 Yosuke's development isn't that important to the plot, in P3 Junpie's jealousy seriously effects EVERYTHING, the characters and this setting IS what the plot is about. The gameplay is about the same, I prefer it to P4 honestly, but you'll need to actually measure out when to deal with it not just 'whenever'.
@@nahte123456 First of all, I appreciate your reply.
Second, I'm glad I'm not only somewhat alone in my feelings about P3. It just seemed like everyone I had seen comment on it was overwhelming positive. So I felt like one of the only ones who didn't like it.
Third, now I'm starting to understand where the disconnect is. It sounds like P3 is, based on what you're say, more character-driven rather than plot-driven. I think I generally prefer the latter, so that may be why I found it so dull.
I think I also don't generally prefer stories with a generally dour atmosphere that does seem to be the core of what P3 is about. It's hard for me to get invested in something where it's just screaming, "everything sucks and this is just life". I mean, I know S.E.E.S. is trying to combat this, but, idk. There really doesn't seem to be much JOY to break up the tension, and I guess that's probably the point. So, I guess this game is just not for me. And I can finally just move on.
So, again, thank you for your reply, it honestly did help.
@@Tryforce8000 I mean of the latter 3 Persona Games P3 just get's the least attention, so I think Fans are just a bit more vocal. Like just to demonstrate, P5 is on current Gen hardware(but not the switch for some reason), P4 is on steam, P3 is stuck on old PS2 and PSP. P5 had an anime, P4 had 2 anime, and P3 had some movies that, while great, aren't even Dubbed.
Lots of new fans just don't know about P3 like they do 4 & 5, so 3 fans make it known.
Also I adore character plots so can't relate. The plot itself is good but it's 100% about how the characters react and interact with it.
And I don't think I'd describe 3 as dour, it's actually very hopeful all told. But it starts at the arguably worse place on purpose, besides one other low point the entire idea is how everyone improves throughout the game. In that first day with Yukari threatening you, that basically is her lowest point. Akihiko and Mitsuru both have other "low" points but they've also learned stuff by then and recover quickly. Junpei's lowest point is basically the train although his first "date" comes close. You're seeing everyone before they improve for a reason.
I love the absolute journey that Yahtzee has gone on with this series. It's so funny to me.
So you're saying that Persona 5 is more then just the sum of its parts. Gosh do I hope it will come to PC one day.
2:59 That strikingly describes my experience working at Apple's old HQ on Infinite Loop in Cupertino. U2 showed up and played at the launch of their special edition iPod.
Face it, you like visual novels. Your favorite part of 13 Sentinels was running around talking to people about an insane plot with well written characters.
yeah, visual novels are just books with weeb shit in em'. if you like books then you like visual novels. And considering Yahtzee's a writer he probably like books. It's just that 99.99% of visual novels are complete mindless eroge garbo so i can understand why he's not exactly into the genre
and a victorious cry was heard at the mention of Chie
"I used to say r-word a lot and that came back to haunt me" - I love self-awareness like that haha
I said that word a lot in my youth as well. Now I can't say it out loud without getting a bad taste in my mouth.
Yahtzee's summary at the end that it's the convergence of the game's elements that makes him like Persona reminded me of something else he once said, which (like his repeatedly-proven fondness for games with emergent storytelling gameplay) adds another element to his complete psychological profile: "I also like that it does both base management and tactical turn-based shooting without either seeming like a gimmick bolted onto the other. I spend my time in the base thinking "Gosh, I'm looking forward to using these plasma rifles I built to shoot all the baddies" and my time in the field thinking "Gosh, I'm looking forward to bringing all these alloys back to base to build more plasma rifles"." That was, of course, from his review of XCOM: Enemy Unknown, another game in a genre he didn't think he'd like that much.
The other telling thing we learned about him is that he liked Chie most.
"I've always been interested in the juxtaposition between the bizarre and the mundane"
Welcome to Night Vale has entered the chat
As a downtrodden Xenoblade 2 fan, I see a discussion on typical JRPG tropes and I hang my head in solemn understanding that it's inclusion is inevitable.
I gotta say Yahtzee, those anime that you enjoyed because they’re “very different than other anime” are pretty snug in the status quo. They’re pretty much the same as all the others, if a little bit better executed.
With the way he said it and presented it, I can't tell if the examples he brought up were either examples of generic anime, or examples of what he considers "different from other anime".
watch that part again, hes saying he doesnt like those
i didnt catch the examples he put on the screen but i know for a fact the animes hes mentioned actually liking are:
cowboy bebop
neon genesis evangelion
season 1 of one-punch man
which are indeed not your typical animes.
@@chronicbrightside8757 Evangelion formed a lot of the tropes which people hate about anime, I say that as a fan. A lot of it started there, "moe" for example was inspired by how rei ayanami was marketed and received by audiences
@@tjofcarolina1776 so its kind of like that "seinfeld is unfunny" trope. seinfeld was completely unique when it came out, but informed so much of comedy going forward that it now doesnt seem very unique to modern audiences. evangelion was a surreal, existential nightmare that subverted a lot of the more obvious "big robots punch each other" animes, but became so influential that it ended up defining a lot of anime going forward. you can see a fair bit of evangelion in, say, attack on titan, despite yahtzee considering aot more of an example of "typical anime."
You know this is much the same conclusion I came to about the game. Visual novel bits in games usually bore me to death, and while I somewhat like JRPGs I definitely don’t go out of my way to play any of them outside of a very few series (i.e. the trails series by falcom for its unparalleled world and character building in addition to banger soundtracks, and weird JRPG-like games like Earthbound or Omori).
Outside of 5’s amazing art direction, there’s not a lot persona does that makes me extremely excited to play, but it’s a whole that’s greater than the sum of its parts. The gameplay is fine enough to have some amount of fun playing it, the characters are deep enough to get you invested in their lives, the story is good enough and builds up interesting enough mysteries to keep me invested, but when put all together they create this weird synergy that doesn’t *seem* like it should work, but when you give it a go it does. It becomes an addicting feedback loop that you can’t really get out of, and that feedback loop makes you so immersed that you’ll want to go back even if you don’t do anything for basically an entire play session besides dick around. It’s really interesting game design, and I’m glad my friend got me past my meh feelings about vn’s and JRPGs to get me to give it a go
I think the thematic psychological exploration of Persona 4 is a little more nuanced than Persona 5’s.
Persona 5 was direct with talking about how the cast had to embrace their “spirit of rebellion” aka the negatives that people judge them as (Ryuji = punk, Ann = sexual, Makoto = know-it-all, Futaba = Alien), even if it conflicts with who they introspectively are…
…Whereas P4’s exploration came from embracing the negative that you judge yourself on: Yosuke = Creep tendencies, Chie = Terrible friend to Yukiko, Yukiko = Victim/Caged bird, Kanji = effeminate, Rise = umm…also sexual?
They’re both Jungian explorations of “Shadow Work”, but P4’s calm setting lent itself more to internal judgment, whereas P5’s urban setting lent itself more to external judgement
Thanks Mr. Edogawa
I think for me it taps into the fantasy of anyone who wonders what their life would be like if they were to acquire superpowers, which I feel like a vast majority of superhero games have never thought about. When I personally thought of having superpowers as a kid, I didn't think about how many cars I'd like to throw or how many walls I'd bust through, because I don't view my life as a game of Gary's mod where I don't have the gravity gun. I think of how I'd theoretically manage having two lives, and how those two lives would effect each other. And that's what I like about Persona 5, that both game modes are very different, but they're also both in service of each other, with the jobs and relationships making the combat sections easier, and doing better at the combat leaves you more time to do things your character likes, such as hang out with friends or study. The game is arguably what you'd get if you made a life-sim about a superhero, is what I'm getting at.
I agree it is chie . I’m a fan of jrpgs but can never seem to finish them. I’m hoping my steam deck will put an end to that
honestly, whilst i don't think the system of 2 game genres side by side (not counting minigames) would work for every game, i think having a core balance of a rest period, where you can preform tasks that will inevitably improve the action period of a game is definitely something that future games could learn from
*note a rest period not referring to say a hub world where you only go there to improve your gear, I mean more in the vein of say, in Dark souls or Elden ring where at one moment you could be wrestling Crabs and in another exploring the world. it can also help give a game world more personality then just "in this, you fight, here's a skip button to get through the story so you can do more fighting"
Also I am more of a Makoto Nijima person
I mean, its super dated now in its presentation, but I maintain that Chrono Trigger is the best JRPG ever, and even people that dislike them still should play it.
Yeah,I'd really love it if he tried it. I don't know if he would like it, but at the very least he would dislike it for new and interesting reasons.
Chie being the best choice from the party members aside, this was a absolutely great breakdown of the Persona series' ability to stand out.
I was so happy when Tales of Arise came up! But unfortunately he only focused on his Bravely Default 2 experience
I love how he went all "f you for asking this thing that has absolutely nothing to do with everything I've said in the last 6 minutes, also here's the answer"
"I could never be an anime fan because most anime I like are nothing like normal anime" I mean out of the 4 examples there 2 of them I wouldn't say are very different at all. I think you've just generalized "normal anime" into something it's not. There is a LOT more to find than and it's not exactly hard to either the medium is very diverse. It's also weird seeing someone show jjk and demon slayer and call them different when they're the most generic shonen formula done a hundred times they're just done well here.
There's hundreds of "different" stuff to find and I myself consider myself a fan while disliking a majority of anime. Which I think is a good majority of people a lot of people seem to generalize anime into only bad generic tropes and waifu bait stuff which it isn't.
It's pretty weird hearing someone with an actual wife tell you who his video game wife is.
“I like Persona games because the games as a whole are greater than the sum of their individual parts” - my interpretation of Yahtzees video in a sentence.
I feel the opposite way about Final Fantasy XIII.
There’s this revisionist history going around that FFXIII was actually a masterpiece and ahead of its time and we who played it on release day just weren’t ready for the majestic majesty of it all.
I noticed that the these revisionist historians are all looking at FFXIII’s individual parts and talking about how amazing they are, and I agree, there are some great ideas in there. The problem is how they’re all put together; in the most boring way that highlights none of its good points.
FFXIII doesn’t suck because it’s a game with bad ideas, it sucks because of the way it’s put together. They had all these great ideas and made them boring to play through.
I don’t know if people are going around saying it was really a masterpiece. Just seems like people are saying it wasn’t really terrible, quite good actually.
@@TheBlueLink3 I also haven't heard that it's a masterpiece. But yeah, seems to have somewhat of a Wind Waker effect, where people hated it on release, but have come to appreciate a lot of things about it as time goes on.
I, personally, love FF 13-1&2. Were there some things I didn't like about both games? Yep. I felt the gameplay in 1 was lacking, but I liked the story. Though, I kinda wished they had done better with weaving the expository info into the story; rather than chucking it into info logs.
I loved the gameplay of 2 (and I'm always a sucker for time-manipulation), but the story I felt was lacking a bit, and it was hard to get invested at some points.
I haven't played Lighting Returns yet, so can't comment on that.
@@Tryforce8000 You'd probably enjoy the retrospectives done by BrandoSP.
6:15 he's about to tell us his waifu. Prediction?
Edit: Nailed. I have watched all your videos Yahtzee, I know when you're setting one up at this point. That's not even a snipe at you, the jokes are still good even when I can sniff them coming, because you still tell them well. Besides 90 percent of the review is jokes I don't see coming because there is no obvious setup, they go with the flow.
Persona Games are likable in the same way Yakuza games are likable. Sometimes its good to know that despite this harrowing plot about the yakuza is going on, its background radiation in comparison to the side story of helping a guy learn to get his dick up for girls again or some other shit that distracts from the main plot. Then when you get to a side story that you don't like, you can go back to the complex overarching mafia plot for a bit until you get bored of that again.
Yeah the social stuff is down time for the action pack stuff, while the action stuff is there to hype stuff and went things are going slow
I love the long-term goals of Persona games. Seeing the days go by, trying to manage your time well in service of a long term and broad goal lends a lot of significance to said goal. Trying to choose the best activities while immersed in a really lived-in, populated world (more so in 5 of course) and interacting with characters makes for a huge upgrade over just grinding. More atmospheric, varied and meditative. I love games that let you explore what you're interested in or feel like persuing rather than just railroading you through ALL the content in a certain order.
I never understood the "oh he likes thing that must mean he likes the entirety of the thing right? from where the thing comes from, the old, the new, all of it? *right?*
no...you don't have to like the entirety of the renaissance just because you think that Da Vinci is dope
Anime fans in a nutshell
@@jimdaily737 I'm pretty sure that's making the exact totalitarian argument that you're accusing anime fans of.
6:25
Oh, boy... brace yourself for the onslaught of FSTEAK jokes
Thats the reason I liked Deadly Premenition. Its a really fascinating concept to go between reality and monstorous realm.
Like I just shot a giant naked squid woman but the BIGGER inconvience is there's a discount on milk right now and im too tired to get it.
The only problem with Deadly premenition is that its absoloute dogshit in nearly every aspect. Cool concept though
I think something key here is that both of the "sides" of the Persona 4/5 formula enhance or cover the general defects of the other. The life/dating sim aspects are used to give your party members more life and depth, adding structure to what is otherwise just a series of dialog boxes. It also turns what is usually a set sequence of events throughout the story into a set of choices, thanks to the time constraint mechanic. And while there is an "optimal path" that allows you to complete pretty much everything in a single run, it's never clear what that optimal path is, unless you have a guide, so the player gets to feel a sense of ownership over the relationships built up over the course of the game. Maybe you and Ryuji quickly became best friends, but in your friends playthrough, they never clicked. This is probably most exemplified in the "waifu hunting", as Yahtzee calls it. Choosing a person to romance isn't going to be everyone's bag of tea, but it certainly helps provide a sense of ownership over the story. It also grounds the characters, making them feel a lot more real. I don't think this is because of the contemporary, somewhat mundane setting either. I think this would work just as well in a fantasy setting. The key is, it lets us regularly see and control the character in situations outside of battle or traveling to save the world. And there's enough of it that we get to see a real sense of change and progression, which makes the character feel more three-dimensional.
Meanwhile, the dungeon-crawling and combat sections help give weight and challenge to the dating sim/visual novel portion of the game. Dating sims and visual novels have a tendency to feel kind of insubstantial, and the JRPG elements help address a few different reasons for that. First, it adds a substantial amount of breathing room between social encounters. Dating sim games can sometimes have a weirdly unrelenting pace, as your character sprints from social encounter to social encounter, with barely a moment to breathe. Having a chance to go spend a couple of hours in a dungeon fighting monsters gives those character beats time to breathe, and gives a sense that you and your party are growing together naturally over time. Additionally, it gives the other activities you can do some real utility and weight. Now, choosing to do a job instead of advancing a character's side-story is a legitimate choice, because that money can be used to buy stuff you need to fight monsters with. Finally, it gives the game a sense of challenge and stakes that a lot of VNs lack. Not a *lot* of challenge, but the idea that you *could* lose a fight adds a surprising amount of weight to the proceedings.
Basically, Persona works because it understands each part of their formula, and how it can be enhanced by the other parts. That's also why a lot of games that try and do weird genre mashups often fail. Sims/Doom would probably not work, because their strengths and weaknesses are so wildly divergent that you'd probably struggle to make something coherent out of them. But I bet that a cross between something like Factorio and an RTS/Tower defense game would work really well.
I have a similar experience with first-person shooters. I was in high school during the military shooter boom and with so many of them coming out and being uninteresting and bland I thought that type of game just isn't for me.
Then I played 2 games that changed my perspective, Team Fortress 2, and Bioshock.
I wonder if you just need to play the right kind of certain genres.
I think that in essentially any art form, there are examples of the medium that transcend their genre. For gangster flicks, it's The Godfather and Goodfellas; for high fantasy novels, it's usually Lord of the Rings or maybe something by Brandon Sanderson; etc.
I usually don't play Metroidvania's but I clawed my way through Bugsouls (i.e. Hollow Knight).
But yeah, some games just click even for people outside the target player base.