Luxury used to mean quality, and now it mainly means expensive. Yes there is quality to them, but the “affordable” market (not just AliExpress) are coming very close to luxury brands, especially entry level luxury. Fortunately for the luxury brands, there are plenty of people who will buy their watches just for bragging rights. And fortunately for people like me, I get to own a watch with 80% to 90% build quality of a luxury brand for a fraction of the price. Thanks for the great conversation!
I'm right there with you on this point. I saw the iwc engineer in the metal at my local ad. It was gorgeous, and that dial. But then I saw and bought the ali versions with sw200 and it was 90% or more up there with the iwc. a case of 11k or £300. More than happy not to be spending £11k on the iwc. The chinese will be as good in 10 years time. In 20 years they will be brands that are better for less. The chinese can improve and innovate their product offer, the swiss can only increase price and restrict supply to boost their so called exclusivity. With a bit of clever marketing to the west, the chinese can clean up.
It's gets harder to buy big luxury brands when you can grab sapphire lens, screw down crowns, and titanium for under 600 dollars consistently (even under 200), it's hard to justify anything except wearing them for the name, not the utility.
I purchased a clone of a rolex milgauss by pagani design. It has sapphire, NH35 movement, milled clasp, and screw links. It was $28 shipped with a coupon code on Temu 😱. I have an SMP and have had a fair share of expensive Swiss watches. It’s hard to justify paying such high prices for Swiss watches just because of history or prestige. We’re gonna have the Aliexpress crisis soon in the watch collecting world. I believe some Swiss brands and higher end micro brands will fold. NTH watches recently closed up shop. I believe they’ll be the first of many.
@DSlyter1995 especially if the quality keeps getting better. Hell, even marginally better each year is an inch closer to the quality they rest on. Eventually they won't be able to sell/produce to compete and with the real lack of innovation that microbrands are bringing....I think some of these brands will eventually do their own movements. Then it's truly over
It's Never been worthwhile buying big Swiss brands. 60% Swiss Made isn't entirely Swiss Made, when the parts are made in China n just assembled in Switzerland... Prestige n history can only go so far when the AliExpress watches can give (sometimes) more features than the actual brand it's homaging... At 20th times LESS the cost. N let's face it, whether it's a 200K watch or 200 dollars watch - they Both tell the same time... N don't even get me started on IWC dials... How 'original' can that dial be? Or how hard can it be to be designed?? N COSC? If I truly needed COSC, I'll just get a Casio. 😁
Great video! Microbrands have also done a great job of changing our perception of Chinese watchmaking. In 10 years, I think many of the naysayers will even join in the celebration enthusiasts like us are enjoying right NOW!
there are a lot of cheaper or borderline Swiss watches out there that don't hold a candle to the Aliexpress watches we often forget about them when making comparisons. ps great video
I've bought several AE watches, and they're all just fine in quality terms. Sure, they have some imperfections. But when we can buy a watch that is 80-90% the watch as its name brand inspiration for 1% of the price -- well, or course we do it. When you buy an automatic watch for $100, you don't expect to ever have it serviced; you buy a new movement or you simply replace the whole thing.
It certainly is. It has been nice to start seeing more originality coming out. It will be interesting to see if this continues. I think it’s driven mostly by what we are buying.
Genuine originality is hard to come by in the watch game, whether Swiss, Japanese or Chinese, or whatever. It's too old a business; everyone owes *something* about their design or their technology to someone else. Having said that, great to see companies like San Martin producing really interesting and striking designs. But also great to see "homages" that have been produced with twists on the original (different dial colors and textures, date window positioning, smaller/larger case dimensions to the original, etc)
My SN0144 gives me 1970s Citizen vibes. I love the way they have leant into their Chinese heritage to create something authentic and original. You cannot put a price on that.
You should be comparing the Tudor to San Martin's new brand of Chinese influenced offering under their Jianghun name. The Deep Challenger Diver or GMT is a diver spec for only $340-368 USD. Or their San Martin skin diver in colorful combos. The San Martin model you have is their GADA competitor. More comparable to an Omega Aqua Terrra or Rolex Exlplorer or Oyster Perpetual. I think the build quality is brilliant. Chinese brands have come a long way, and at the prices on sale, their value is ridiculous. I wore my Terami turquoise fume dialed 'Submariner' today and immediately got comments on it at the bank. Upon inspecting it, people thought it was a luxury watch. They were stunned when I told them the specs and the price. I love my Swiss and Japanese watches, but I can't deny or resist the pull of fine offerings from China.
Yes the gap is definitely closing between Chinese watches especially in relation to basic specs and quality finishing , the high end luxury watch market won't be affected, because the people who buy from that market are looking for brand clout and exclusivity and don't particularly care about shelling out 6 figures and above.
Your take on brand history and movements in watches seems spot on to me and interesting to actually hear someone say it! It's all about the watch v price for me. Discount is king on items that are discountable. Rolex's discount is being able to buy one at at list lol.
Great topic. I especially am intered in the quality of the finishing and design details. The movements are less of an issue if the Japanese movements are used
I went nuts with Ali watches 30 Pagani Watches. I have Seiko and Bulova and Zodiac but I wear them all interchangeably throughout the week without hesitation. I can appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into the higher name brand stuff but realistically I get the same enjoyment with rhe Pagani watches. 😎👍
I’ve noticed that too. China used to produce cheap, low-quality watches, often using inexpensive materials and imitating luxury watch designs. However, with the advent of 3D printing and CAD/CAM technology, they are now creating or replicating watches, like Rolex, with 99% accuracy at a fraction of the original price-some even costing less than 1% of the real thing. With China’s low wages, they can afford to manufacture these watches at significantly reduced costs and sell them for much less. Take San Martin, for example. They started by making knockoffs and still do to some extent, but now they’re producing incredible watches in terms of both aesthetics and quality. Give it a few more years, and people might laugh at those who bought or continue to buy genuine luxury brand watches at exorbitant prices.
Crazy close. I have Guanqin GJ16034 are nowhere near San Martin quality yet just by changing the original hands with dauphine hands I managed to make them look like much much more expensive watch. The tungsten twelve sided bezel is incredibly well made as well as the dial.
I have a large collection including many Swiss brands as well brands such as San Martin. Arguably other than the movement I believe the overall finishing and specifications of some of these Chinese brands are better than Tissot/Seiko and entry level Swiss watches. My latest purchase, which is the San Martin SN0144 has a Miyota 9015, fantastic case, sapphire crystal, brilliant bracelet, and an on the fly clasp .In my opinion the aforementioned SM is as good as my Tudor BB36 with exception to the movement
The way I see this is similar to how Chinese car companies were a few years ago vs German car companies. Back then Chinese car brands seemed to be making poor copies of German (and other) designs - I remember an episode of Top Gear where they made a lot of fun of this. Nowadays, the likes of BYD are getting very close to legacy car brands and certainly my next car has a good chance of being Chinese (OK, my current car is Chinese built but not designed).
Absolutely. Especially the new electric cars coming out of china. I’m a bit excited about that too. Might have to trade in my Audi one day. Hahahahahaha
Why is it that we give "microbrands" a pass and alix brands are derided? Most micros are made in china so whats the difference? I think it generally comes down to originality. Micros are generally spending more on design than creating copies. And i think general watch buyers appreciate that.
Personally I compare Chinese watches with established Japanese brands like Seiko, Orient and Citizen, for one simple reason: the movements. Many Chinese AliExpress offerings are essentially Japanese technology, cased & finished in China. As long as you have a basic knowledge of watch movements, you really can't go wrong. If you don't, you can end up with a watch using a 'bottom of the barrel' movement like a Tongji (a.k.a. Chinese Standard Movement). Current Chinese offerings win this comparison more often than not. Think crystals, bracelets. Luxury Swiss watches are in a league of their own for many reasons such as history, brand recognition, perceived quality, investment, a bit of snobbery - and paying more for a higher chance to get mugged 😅
Well, luxury usually means high price, even if it is very close to the affordable versions - watches, bags, clothing, jewellery, etc.. One exception are cars, where the machine, finish, feel, and performance of a luxury one can really be miles away from the affordable one. Heritage is a problem for someone like me who doesn't care much, it's like heritage is priced at thousands of dollars.
Ali express is just recent....actually from the recent past,closer to the present. However, there is very little gap between Grand Seiko. Swiss hasnt really been inovative and not much forward movement, however the GS have outstripped them in leaps and bounds, recently "launching" into the US market. Even though i do love the Longines and Omega, i would certainly choose the GS over rolex.❤😂🎉
Hi, You could have considered HEMUDU Original Flying Tourbillon Movement Mechanical Skeleton Sapphire Stainless Luxury Mens watches. Also with crystal back. I bought for $269.1 from AliExpress. I have had this watch in the metal for about 3 months now. Top quality in all aspects. Including the black leather strap with deployment buckle. After breaking in the leather it feels great on my wrist. I took a risk on this movement and watch, but have had no regrets. Regards,
I think it is a matter of personal perspective, I don't have a macro lens or a big budget and might wear a mechanical watch one day, so build quality and visible differences aren't so noticeable. To me at any rate.
I bought many San Martins and Baltany watches but I have sold most of the typical homages and will only buy original watches or indirect homages that have some differences . Such as a red Willard on a black canvas strap. I love the quality of San Martin original ( ish ) designs and will upgrade to a Selita movement Sometimes . I have learnt my style through buying cheap Chinese watches at Ali Express and have used it to see if I would buy the Original I learned that would love a big Seiko Marine Master via the San Martin and saw ,in Chrono 24 ,a Seaweed green , titanium Seiko LX Springdrive , the Rolls Royce of Seiko, at half the new price ( $3,400) and bought it It's my Grail and just fits me well having 8 inch wrists And the watch is my daily as it's so light . I look at it often and never tire of the great redesignied looks and the smooth sweep. I love Seiko divers . So I bought the Ali Express homage then convinced myself to buy the original I am afraid the homage is miles from the Original with the Grand Seiko polishing and movement and the seaweed texture dial . It has served it's purpose and sold Collectors would love a springdrive and I don't wear dress watches so I am happy it's in a beautiful redesignied Seiko Diver and only 500 exist In Green . I have a few Swiss watches but nothing beats a springdrive diver on my big wrist
No I agree. I had a Tissot and a San Martin in the hand the other day and the Tissot Seastar wasn't made as well as the San Martin. They might not be on part yet but they are getting close.
People will say: "this is stupid; my luxury watch has history, heritage, and influence on the industry, blah blah blah." Yes, that’s all true. I own a few $5k+ luxury watches myself. However, in my honest opinion, all that heritage, history, and finishing is overrated and not worth the money. I don’t buy watches because of those factors. I buy them because I like how they look, how they feel, and how they wear on my wrist.
Hi James, It's a great topic, and i agree with you, i to have a BB58 and an SNO144, the steeel finishing on the san martin is on another level, plus I've just received my new Farasute cronogaph, wow, the gap is closing fast, merry Christmas mate, 🎅
Great idea to compare these watches. You could also have taken the berny and the jeager le coultre polaris. Exactly simular in specs, but 100 times cheaper. Keep up the nice work on these type of videos.
I do appreciate the value, but 3 of my last chinese watch purchases experienced loose band link screws days or weeks into ownership. I just got done tightening the link screws on my San Martin Zulu Time homage, Those guys need to start using some kind of loc-tite. You can never tell when the screws will back out leading to a perpetual cloud of doom following just behind you waiting for your watch to spontaneously self detach from your wrist and mock you.
If one is a bit handy; a bit into DIY, Chinese watches are even better value. I love applying a bit of Loctite myself where it's needed. I love replacing a crystal myself, etcetera.
In my opinion the very best Chinese watches available on AliExpress are already the equal of their Swiss Made counterparts. Some models even come with Swiss Made movements such as Eta 2824-2 and the Sellita SW200. In many cases unless you are looking under considerable magnification there isn't any difference. Not all, the very best. Standards are improving though.
Some Chinese watches have all the bells and whistles of swiss now also alot of parts for Swiss watches are made in China.Also I remember late 60s early 70s people laughed at Japanese motorcycles over British where is the British motorcycle industry now?.The gap between the watches is narrowing all the time also likes of ETA clones not copies the license ran out yrs ago we now have movements like seagull ST2130, HK presicion PT 5000,then high beat movements from miyota 9015 etc combined with sapphire crystals very well finished cases etc alot of people will go for best bang for buck.I feel one main thing people and myself think about is build quality and longevity of Chinese,I have high end watches I have Chinese very similar quality at a fraction of the cost there's a lot going on but the Chinese are not to be underestimated.
In a few years there had better be big tariffs or import duties, otherwise San Martin et.al. will decimate the Swiss watch industry. Looking at the German Auto industry today, who would have thought 5 years ago that Merc, BMW, Porsche etc are now all in trouble because of the Chinee EV?
I currently have a similar dilemma but with a microbrand Vaer. It's a US brand and I'm sort of stuck between their GMT watch and a Longines Zulu. Don't get me wrong, the Zulu is an amazing watch, I tried it on my wrist the other day, but there's certain features that I like in other watches like a higher click bezel or shorter lugs. The price difference is substantial enough as well, while the movement is not that much worse in any way other than accuracy I believe. Longienes has the l844.4 and the Vaer has a Miyota 9075 I believe.
9075 is a high end miyota movement. You could always ask Vaer to regulate it for you before they ship. You never know, they might do it for a few bucks or so. Failling that, if you have a local watch maker they would prolly do it for a twenty. I do my own and I find they can be regulated to Cosc with a 8 second or so delta between positions. Rotor spin might be the bigger problem. I own several 9000 series and dont really notice or care. When its done 10 years or so, just change the movement and your good for another 10 years.
I agree with you and have a similar philosophy. The sqiss arent 10 times better but you pay 10 times the price.I have owned at least a dozen Chinese aliX watches and have mostly been disappointed. For various reasons, quality, design, wrist feel. They are good "for the price". But im fortunate enough to pay more and feel you generally get more up to about $1000usd. I know many people love homages but i find them empty, particularly if its a clone of a current model. I dont mind homages of discontinued models especially older ones. For me, originallity and good deaign is really important. Thats why im a Seiko fan even if the quality often isn't there.
Of course when i start to buy a watch the design is first and foremost, but secondly, the amount/quality of specifications per dollar is my next concern (within my personal budget of sub approx. $500) For that reason i find myself buying more AliExpress watches lately (and micro brands). Usually when the design wins out over specs it may lead me to a bigger brand. But after i like the look of the watch, the amount of watch i receive for dollars paid is my next concern. I do think a better comparison would be entry level luxury and Micro brands to the Chinese watches. That gap is disturbingly close. Comparison of Chinese brands to all other big brand and micro brands sub $1000. how far up the sub $1000 scale can a $300 chinese watch climb?
Another thing, just an observation, is that the watch case itself seems to have a different center of gravity on Swiss and at least some Japanese watches vs Chinese watches. Doesn't really impede function, but the Swiss and Japanese watches seem more substantial even if they aren't. Kind of difficult to explain.
Interesting. I’ve not experienced that. I do find thinner movements make watches sit down on wrist better and change how it feels. Sometimes also the quality of the bracelet and how they are balanced with the head of the watch.
I would say that is correct. There maybe a couple of brands that are close Sugess IX&DAO perhaps. SanMartin and Baltany can definitely satisfy a watch buyer if quality is important.
I order san martin the same dial with 230$ after discount coupon. this is the first aliexpress watch I ever bought and waiting the item arrive soon. I can't justify to buy swiss watch with more than 1000$ in these day.
Agree homages are near identical. Believe pricing will go up as this truth takes hold. Once somebody works through the modified NH 35/34 GMT setting issue, they will have a bullet proof movement.
I just bought a Seestern skin diver with Seagull ST2130 movement (28,800 BPH) for USD 159, which is amazing. Is the Glashutte SeaQ 11,000 Euros better? No way.
A $600 USD San Martin would be right there. The QC is there. What is lacking (and may still be lacking) is design refinement and movement tech and regulation.
It may sound stupid, but for me a big factor is branding/logo. Once the Chinese brands will start giving some f#@£s about the name, font and logo, and make an effort in that department, it will be haaaard times for Swiss brands
Once you get your clone/copy right (of something that took a fortune in time money and brain power for someone else to develop) you can now focus on quality with all that savings. Good job helping long standing watch firms understand they charge too much and are doomed. Clearly, it is inevitable people will buy Chinese because history/story are not that important any more.
Meh i dont care about swiss luxury watches anymore, i had a few and always felt i was paying for the name. Nowadays, ive been buying japanese and chinese watches and i have many of them that i am very happy with.
You can still feel the difference with Swiss watches, if you buy carefully. Get a good one and there's a noticeable step up in clarity and refinement. I'll pass on the homages, but Chinese watches come into their own with colours, finishes etc that you just can't get buying Swiss, and they're cheap enough to experiment with.
Heritage is relative to time. Refinement is where the Swiss have convinced us that they are worth an arm and a leg, which to me at least, they are not worth 10x a San Martin price. Now technique and execution of complications…mmm yeah maybe you can add value to that, certainly not THAT much. Thanks for touching this controvertial topic.
Heritage is an interesting 1. My 2c if i was more focjsed on tbat angle id be more likely to go vintage. To get a piece thats from an era for eg or gas some historical significance. Thats 1 area that the chinese brands dont compete in. Vintage..as tbey obv dont have the history. Separate pt re the finer details which also separate rhe luxury brands from tbe cbiinese brands often can only be seen close up or even with magnification..but its still there..still can be appreciated on the more expensive watches.
As much as I’m not a fan of most Swiss watch brands they are still above almost all AE brands. There are to many trash AE brands. Even the known good ones, like San Martin, have QC issues and aren’t consistent. But they cost a lot less money. Let’s be honest, w/ out Seiko and Miyota movements there would be no AE brands at all. The Chinese designed movements are trash. Even copies of Swiss movements, PT5000, are garbage. And then there’s the elephant in the room, originality. There is little to none w/ AE brands. And when they do attempt, it’s almost always a disaster. Sorry, but I’ve been collecting for over 35 years and am not judging from a small sample size. I do purchase and will continue to purchase select watches from AE. But at the end of the day they are copes of known designs w/ Japanese designed movements at reasonable prices w/ quality that is all over the place.
Many who watch this and other channels that cover AE watches don’t want to hear it, but everything you’ve said is true. They don’t care about originality or they’d be buying affordable watches from Seiko, Citizen, or any of the hundreds of microbrands out there. They just want the look of famous brands, with sapphire and ceramic at less than $200. I’ve heard so many commenters call some SanMartin design original when it’s clearly ripped from another brand. Ultimately, it’s not my place to correct them, but I can’t help but get depressed by the way they view watches as commodities. Affordable originality exists and it’s way more interesting than a $70 Daytona clone with a quartz movement and sapphire glass.
Heritage... what does rhat mean? If a company is revived by another person or campany purchasing it and raising it drom the dead, does that company still have heritage? For example, does Hamilton have any heritage? It used to be an American company built in America, but now it's not. Does today's Hamilton have any connection to yesterday's. Or is it just rhe design - and how is that different from homage designs?
Don't zoom in with your 2D eyes..... Wear it with your 3D wrist (and other senses) FFS. The big difference is the workforce lol. Chinese children on 0.28 a day v Swiss Adults on 28.00 an hour.
That turbine link appears to be dead for me. Even if I set my region to Australia. Unfortunately when I search for other instances of supposedly the same watch, they all come with a super basic version of the movement, with barely any decoration and no regulator indication needle.
Ok upon further research it seems the movement they are using now is the seagull 3620 which has a more simple finish of Geneva stripes and a smaller regulator indicating needle. Your version is the 3621 with that quirky decoration which tbh was a selling point for me. Funnily enough there’s also someone selling a clone of this watch with a janky painted turbine disk and the 3621 movement for about half the price on Ali. I think I’ll steer clear of that one. lol
@@WATCHingJames Well I'm not sure how these affiliate links work, but I clicked on your dead link and switched out the item number for one I know exists, at a store I've used before and bit the bullet for about 130usd shipped. Hope Ali can toss you a couple of bucks for that anyway. A little sad about the 3620 vs the 3621 but the 3620 is an incredibly good movement, and if the watch turns out to be as good as it sounds, I might end up swapping it for a more highly decorated equivalent or kick off a project polishing one up for myself. Cheers! PS good call sticking a deployant on there. I put them on all my watches but this one in particular needs one, and it's great you can buy sterile ones of this style. IYKYK.
Luxury brands continue to put up prices beyond the reach of most people. This is where Ali dominates that large swathe of the market. Well established mid level brands are losing out to Ali because they are not offering the same specs as Ali watches can.
Even using the same movements, they'll be 200-400 dollars more expensive and that's just unacceptable. You're literally using the same seiko movement and want to charge more because of where it's made? You didn't even make the movement! So, that scale that Chinese watches can be made at is great, and now that they're cutting out the middle man and selling direct is everything.
@@robbied4766 I had that experience with an Islander watch. I wanted an skx007 as I had seen my mates watch and liked it. When I checked the spec, it seemed a bit low. Pressed clasp, hollow end links, push pin bracelet with rolled links, glass crystal, and no hand winding for £300. Then I found Islander selling an identical watch with solid end links, milled clasp, screw links and solid links, sapphire and hand wind and hacking. I bought it for £295. When I put it on I cant help but think to myself that this is the watch that Seiko should have made and been selling.
Their prices are going up too. Would rather purchase an entry level or mid tier Swiss watch knowing that it can be repaired and that it wasn’t put together in a sweatshop. Not gonna spend $300 on an AliExpress beater
All of the chinese watches can be repaired in exactly the same way as swiss watches. Some are even cheaper to service or repair as the movement can simply be exchanged for a new one at a fraction of the cost of a swiss watch repair. Most of the factories stopped being "sweatshops" years ago as it was bad for the brand image. Most £300 chinese watches are far removed from being beaters. Maybe £100 are beaters, but then you would take this into account before purchase. I had a high end swiss watch that I sent for service and appraisal. The estimated cost for repairs and refinish would turn your hair grey overnight, and thats putting it politely. I sold the watch as is, and put the money into about 5 mid brand swiss and about 10 micro or chinese brand watches. Saved me from having my watch hacked of in a machete robbery too.
Slightly bizarre comparison between the Tudor and San Martin. Why on earth didn’t you pick the San Martin version of the Tudor BB. That would have made much more sense.
There are a few factors that lead to believe that the gap is still enormous. Firstly, they say they use 316L but in many cases they could be using a lower grade of stainless steel. Chinese brands aren’t exactly known for being 100% forthright. I’ve had a few where I’ve realised that some of the components of the clasp aren’t stainless steel at all. The movements are in many cases Seiko ou Myota movements that normally equipe similarly priced watches from big brands. Additionally, the PT5000 isn’t minimally reliable, it might breakdown very quickly. The bracelets are micro-brand level of quality. That’s not a bad thing, but they’re still a long way behind the bracelets from brands like TUDOR. All that being said, I do agree that AliExpress watches have gotten significantly better but they still have a long way to go to even come close to high-end Swiss brands.
Chinese watch manufacturers are focusing on finish and they are making great strides and that gap is definitely closing. If that is your main priority then you are home free. Movements, horology, heritage, and originality fuel my watch buying, and the Chinese are still well behind the curve there. Exceptions? Sure, brands like Atelier Wen bring it hard and fast to compete with the Swiss and Germans but they also charge luxury prices like the Swiss and Germans. Christopher Ward is doing the same thing. I own many, many Chinese watches from all the usual suspects and I enjoy wearing them all the time. Some of them are turning into nice little microbrands, but they are not and never will be in the same category as my Swiss, German, and Japanese luxury watches and likely never will be. It's just the way the market works. Great topic and great video, btw. I always enjoy your perspective on the heady stuff. Too many watch salesman in You Tube, not nearly enough watch and watch industry reviewers.
"they are not and never will be in the same category as my Swiss, German, and Japanese luxury watches and likely never will be." - The fact that you can say this about Chinese watches while unconsciously recognizing that Japanese watches are now firmly within the "luxury" arena... when in living memory, Japanese watches were regarded EXACTLY as you regard Chinese watches now... is pretty funny.
Luxury vs Ali. This is easy for me. Do I wear and expensive suit everyday? No. I wear chinos and a collared shirt to work. Ali works just fine with that.
I really couldn't care less about specs when almost 99% of these Ali brands are just stealing designs. To each their own, but that is not what gets my juices flowing when I'm looking to buy a watch.
Currently, in the year 2025, luxury watches have transcended their original function of telling time. Their value lies primarily in the prestige they convey, becoming symbols of status and authentic pieces of high-end men's jewelry. Therefore, even in the hypothetical scenario where Aliexpress watches were to surpass Swiss watches in quality, they would still lack the symbolic value and prestige associated with Swiss watchmaking. En la actualidad, año 2025, los relojes de lujo han trascendido su función original de indicar la hora. Su valor radica principalmente en el prestigio que confieren, convirtiéndose en símbolos de estatus y auténticas piezas de alta joyería masculina. Por ello, incluso en el hipotético caso de que los relojes de Aliexpress superaran en calidad a los relojes suizos, seguirían careciendo del valor simbólico y prestigio asociados a la relojería suiza.
@@MrZman0004 Thank you so much for your kind words. Unfortunately, I only have a time machine purchased from Aliexpress, which is limited to traveling just nine days into the future. So, indeed, I find myself in the year 2025.
All it will take is some very clever marketing of chinese watches to a western audience and a bit of time. Everyone laughed at grand seiko back in the fifties when they submitted movements to the observatory competitions. By 1967 they were almost top of the manufacture lists. They got so good that the swiss watch industry cancelled the competition as they saw they were about to have their faces rubbed in it by the Japanese. Then the quartz watches created in Japan destroyed the swiss watch industry wholesale. Now it is Chinas turn.
yes its closing. first it was the quartz crisis. now they got to deal with the aliexpress micro brand crisis. in this economy combined with those high prices on luxury watches the swiss will lose more and more customers
Hi, A question on the working conditions with these Chinese watch brands? Does this consideration bother you? And have you actually visited these factories without the Chinese authorities supervision? I have read the conditions at apple’s Chinese watch factories are so bad, they had to install a net to keep workers there from committing suicide by jumping off of the top of the Apple watch factory buildings. Personally I have bought and enjoyed high quality inexpensive watches from the Chinese, but have always wondered at what ‘cost’ these watches actually have to Chinese people? Regards,
They are getting closer. Im in a position to be able to have owned some very nice, high end watches. I get more enjoyment from affordable watches. I love the hunt. I love the community and the hobby. The price and made in Switzerland is far from everything. I truly feel sorry for those who can only enjoy a watch if it costs 4 or 5 figures at minimum. Look at all the enjoyment they miss out on. How sad that is. They are victims of their own success.
Absolutely. There are such great affordable watches and now with what is coming out of china we just have so many more options available to us. Thanks for WATCHing
Thank you. While I am a pretty new subscriber I am genuinely enjoying your channel. Glad to see that you are enjoying the hobby too as some with channels are just doing it to promote a business and are in it for the love of the dollar and not the love of the watches that we all share. Please keep up the good work and keep having a great time enjoying these great watches . - a .@@WATCHingJames
Very interesting to compare what you are saying here to the auto industry. Up until recently people were willing to pay a lot more for "made in Germany" - which is really mostly just a marketing concept, which worked well for years, but now seems to be coming to an end. Chinese E-cars are BETTER. And the German car industry is DYING. Will this happen in the watch world? Part of the issue is that, as you say, "Chinese quality" 20 years ago is not what it is today. It has CHANGED. A lot of people seem to fail to understand that. Especially Germans....- the success of their economy in the last couple decades being down to championing "made in Germany", a corollary of which must be that "Chinese quality is and always will be terrible." Big mistake...
Great video -- a fair, subjectve, analysis. But can two companies under the same ownership make homages of one another? Tudor watches were originally equipped with off-the-shelf movements paired with Rolex cases and bracelets, allowing Tudor to provide reliability and quality at a more affordable price. They aren't homages of Rolex in my opinion. I'd rather buy used "heritage" brand models (Swiss or otherwise) than new AliExpress models as history is important to me as is not directly supporting the CCP. Each to their own eh.
I have swiss watches and ali watches. My swiss watches i am wearing during the weekend, my ali watches i am wearing at the office. For me the difference is making a scratch on a 4000 euro swiss watch compared to making a scratch on a 150 euro ali watch.....some see the homage thing as a problem, well, since i know that the so overhyped and really expensive omega moonwatch is not a original design by omega but from a 1954 rodania, i am ok with wearing a homage watch. If the big swiss companys like omega or davosa or tudor or revue thommen can get away with it, the chinese can do also. San Martin watches quality is really really fantastic. The price of swiss labour is the big problem and is making it difficult for brands like tissot or certina to compete with the best ali watches.
Heritage canalso be a negative... I know this is a controversial opinion, but heritage can be baggage... Many ofthe brands just iterate over the same designs ane only make minor tweaks (think of what Rolex, Tudor, Omega, etc.). And sometimes even the "big" announcements are not really all that big (think Kith Heuer and MoonSwatch). And then there are the insulting money-grabs: I'm looking at you Patek Cubitus. The chinese and micro brands are motivated to do more experimentation and interesting things, even when they are iterating over heritage designs.
The gap is not getting 'smaller and smaller'. Swiss watches have regulated, dust-free, long-lasting movements with minimal deviation and/or a large power reserve. They have a better resale value, customer service, guarantees and there is a service network and shops where you can try the watches out. Nothing of this has changed in recent years.
The grossly inflated markup on these items is in no way justified by the bloated sales network you're describing. As for "customer service", Grand Seiko gives good customer service. Rolex? Not so much. Plenty of videos from owners proving that at this point.
@@adrianhjordan1981 The basic NH3x and Miyota 82xx movements in Chinese watches are not as long lasting as Swiss movements because they often contain dust and never contain premium materials like Glucydur, Parachrom or SPRON. The anti-corrosiveness and stated water resistance of Chinese watches is often doubtful.
At the heart of capitalism is the idea that high returns attract competition. That's what you are seeing. What's interesting about watch manufacturing is how little innovation there has been. That makes it comparatively easy to produce facsimiles as it's just a quality game. China can't make a car as well as Toyota because they keep moving the goalposts but they will be able to make a better watch than the Swiss.
Luxury used to mean quality, and now it mainly means expensive. Yes there is quality to them, but the “affordable” market (not just AliExpress) are coming very close to luxury brands, especially entry level luxury. Fortunately for the luxury brands, there are plenty of people who will buy their watches just for bragging rights. And fortunately for people like me, I get to own a watch with 80% to 90% build quality of a luxury brand for a fraction of the price. Thanks for the great conversation!
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I'm right there with you on this point. I saw the iwc engineer in the metal at my local ad. It was gorgeous, and that dial. But then I saw and bought the ali versions with sw200 and it was 90% or more up there with the iwc. a case of 11k or £300. More than happy not to be spending £11k on the iwc. The chinese will be as good in 10 years time. In 20 years they will be brands that are better for less. The chinese can improve and innovate their product offer, the swiss can only increase price and restrict supply to boost their so called exclusivity. With a bit of clever marketing to the west, the chinese can clean up.
@ Perfectly summed up. 👍🏼
It's gets harder to buy big luxury brands when you can grab sapphire lens, screw down crowns, and titanium for under 600 dollars consistently (even under 200), it's hard to justify anything except wearing them for the name, not the utility.
I purchased a clone of a rolex milgauss by pagani design. It has sapphire, NH35 movement, milled clasp, and screw links. It was $28 shipped with a coupon code on Temu 😱. I have an SMP and have had a fair share of expensive Swiss watches. It’s hard to justify paying such high prices for Swiss watches just because of history or prestige. We’re gonna have the Aliexpress crisis soon in the watch collecting world. I believe some Swiss brands and higher end micro brands will fold. NTH watches recently closed up shop. I believe they’ll be the first of many.
@DSlyter1995 especially if the quality keeps getting better. Hell, even marginally better each year is an inch closer to the quality they rest on. Eventually they won't be able to sell/produce to compete and with the real lack of innovation that microbrands are bringing....I think some of these brands will eventually do their own movements. Then it's truly over
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It's Never been worthwhile buying big Swiss brands. 60% Swiss Made isn't entirely Swiss Made, when the parts are made in China n just assembled in Switzerland...
Prestige n history can only go so far when the AliExpress watches can give (sometimes) more features than the actual brand it's homaging... At 20th times LESS the cost.
N let's face it, whether it's a 200K watch or 200 dollars watch - they Both tell the same time...
N don't even get me started on IWC dials... How 'original' can that dial be? Or how hard can it be to be designed??
N COSC? If I truly needed COSC, I'll just get a Casio. 😁
You have never worn a big luxury brand though so how do you know that?
Great video! Microbrands have also done a great job of changing our perception of Chinese watchmaking. In 10 years, I think many of the naysayers will even join in the celebration enthusiasts like us are enjoying right NOW!
Absolutely. I’m leaning back pretty heavily into micros lately. I think 2025 will be a microbrand year for me.
there are a lot of cheaper or borderline Swiss watches out there that don't hold a candle to the Aliexpress watches we often forget about them when making comparisons. ps great video
That’s very true too. Thanks for WATCHing
I've bought several AE watches, and they're all just fine in quality terms. Sure, they have some imperfections. But when we can buy a watch that is 80-90% the watch as its name brand inspiration for 1% of the price -- well, or course we do it. When you buy an automatic watch for $100, you don't expect to ever have it serviced; you buy a new movement or you simply replace the whole thing.
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The biggest compromise is originality.
It certainly is. It has been nice to start seeing more originality coming out. It will be interesting to see if this continues.
I think it’s driven mostly by what we are buying.
So if San Martin or Proxima came out first... Rolex would be the copy?
Genuine originality is hard to come by in the watch game, whether Swiss, Japanese or Chinese, or whatever. It's too old a business; everyone owes *something* about their design or their technology to someone else.
Having said that, great to see companies like San Martin producing really interesting and striking designs. But also great to see "homages" that have been produced with twists on the original (different dial colors and textures, date window positioning, smaller/larger case dimensions to the original, etc)
@kennethg9277 Touche. N hence, new horology in the making. :)
Originality? It’s pieces of steel carved and polished in different ways. It’s not the cure for cancer.
Just how close?
My SN0144 gives me 1970s Citizen vibes. I love the way they have leant into their Chinese heritage to create something authentic and original. You cannot put a price on that.
I’ve been very impressed by it.
You should be comparing the Tudor to San Martin's new brand of Chinese influenced offering under their Jianghun name. The Deep Challenger Diver or GMT is a diver spec for only $340-368 USD.
Or their San Martin skin diver in colorful combos. The San Martin model you have is their GADA competitor. More comparable to an Omega Aqua Terrra or Rolex Exlplorer or Oyster Perpetual. I think the build quality is brilliant. Chinese brands have come a long way, and at the prices on sale, their value is ridiculous. I wore my Terami turquoise fume dialed 'Submariner' today and immediately got comments on it at the bank. Upon inspecting it, people thought it was a luxury watch. They were stunned when I told them the specs and the price. I love my Swiss and Japanese watches, but I can't deny or resist the pull of fine offerings from China.
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Yes the gap is definitely closing between Chinese watches especially in relation to basic specs and quality finishing , the high end luxury watch market won't be affected, because the people who buy from that market are looking for brand clout and exclusivity and don't particularly care about shelling out 6 figures and above.
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Your take on brand history and movements in watches seems spot on to me and interesting to actually hear someone say it!
It's all about the watch v price for me.
Discount is king on items that are discountable.
Rolex's discount is being able to buy one at at list lol.
Great topic. I especially am intered in the quality of the finishing and design details. The movements are less of an issue if the Japanese movements are used
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I went nuts with Ali watches 30 Pagani Watches. I have Seiko and Bulova and Zodiac but I wear them all interchangeably throughout the week without hesitation. I can appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into the higher name brand stuff but realistically I get the same enjoyment with rhe Pagani watches. 😎👍
And they seem to be getting better and better too.
I’ve noticed that too. China used to produce cheap, low-quality watches, often using inexpensive materials and imitating luxury watch designs. However, with the advent of 3D printing and CAD/CAM technology, they are now creating or replicating watches, like Rolex, with 99% accuracy at a fraction of the original price-some even costing less than 1% of the real thing. With China’s low wages, they can afford to manufacture these watches at significantly reduced costs and sell them for much less.
Take San Martin, for example. They started by making knockoffs and still do to some extent, but now they’re producing incredible watches in terms of both aesthetics and quality. Give it a few more years, and people might laugh at those who bought or continue to buy genuine luxury brand watches at exorbitant prices.
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Crazy close. I have Guanqin GJ16034 are nowhere near San Martin quality yet just by changing the original hands with dauphine hands I managed to make them look like much much more expensive watch. The tungsten twelve sided bezel is incredibly well made as well as the dial.
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I have a large collection including many Swiss brands as well brands such as San Martin. Arguably other than the movement I believe the overall finishing and specifications of some of these Chinese brands are better than Tissot/Seiko and entry level Swiss watches. My latest purchase, which is the San Martin SN0144 has a Miyota 9015, fantastic case, sapphire crystal, brilliant bracelet, and an on the fly clasp .In my opinion the aforementioned SM is as good as my Tudor BB36 with exception to the movement
It’s incredible how good they have become. I can only imagine what they will be like in a few years.
Great vidéo idea James! It's really interesting to see how these Chinese watches have evolved! Let's hope they continue to do so!
I’m excited to see what happens over the next few years. I expect to see some great watches.
The way I see this is similar to how Chinese car companies were a few years ago vs German car companies.
Back then Chinese car brands seemed to be making poor copies of German (and other) designs - I remember an episode of Top Gear where they made a lot of fun of this.
Nowadays, the likes of BYD are getting very close to legacy car brands and certainly my next car has a good chance of being Chinese (OK, my current car is Chinese built but not designed).
Absolutely. Especially the new electric cars coming out of china.
I’m a bit excited about that too.
Might have to trade in my Audi one day. Hahahahahaha
Why is it that we give "microbrands" a pass and alix brands are derided? Most micros are made in china so whats the difference? I think it generally comes down to originality. Micros are generally spending more on design than creating copies. And i think general watch buyers appreciate that.
A very good point. One I’ve thought about too.
Personally I compare Chinese watches with established Japanese brands like Seiko, Orient and Citizen, for one simple reason: the movements. Many Chinese AliExpress offerings are essentially Japanese technology, cased & finished in China. As long as you have a basic knowledge of watch movements, you really can't go wrong. If you don't, you can end up with a watch using a 'bottom of the barrel' movement like a Tongji (a.k.a. Chinese Standard Movement). Current Chinese offerings win this comparison more often than not. Think crystals, bracelets.
Luxury Swiss watches are in a league of their own for many reasons such as history, brand recognition, perceived quality, investment, a bit of snobbery - and paying more for a higher chance to get mugged 😅
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Well, luxury usually means high price, even if it is very close to the affordable versions - watches, bags, clothing, jewellery, etc.. One exception are cars, where the machine, finish, feel, and performance of a luxury one can really be miles away from the affordable one. Heritage is a problem for someone like me who doesn't care much, it's like heritage is priced at thousands of dollars.
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Ali express is just recent....actually from the recent past,closer to the present. However, there is very little gap between Grand Seiko. Swiss hasnt really been inovative and not much forward movement, however the GS have outstripped them in leaps and bounds, recently "launching" into the US market. Even though i do love the Longines and Omega, i would certainly choose the GS over rolex.❤😂🎉
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Hi, You could have considered HEMUDU Original Flying Tourbillon Movement Mechanical Skeleton Sapphire Stainless Luxury Mens watches. Also with crystal back. I bought for $269.1 from AliExpress. I have had this watch in the metal for about 3 months now. Top quality in all aspects. Including the black leather strap with deployment buckle. After breaking in the leather it feels great on my wrist. I took a risk on this movement and watch, but have had no regrets. Regards,
That’s great to hear. I’ve been seriously considering one from Sugess. Looks amazing
I think it is a matter of personal perspective, I don't have a macro lens or a big budget and might wear a mechanical watch one day, so build quality and visible differences aren't so noticeable. To me at any rate.
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I bought many San Martins and Baltany watches but I have sold most of the typical homages and will only buy original watches or indirect homages that have some differences . Such as a red Willard on a black canvas strap.
I love the quality of San Martin original ( ish ) designs and will upgrade to a Selita movement
Sometimes .
I have learnt my style through buying cheap Chinese watches at Ali Express and have used it to see if I would buy the Original
I learned that would love a big Seiko Marine Master via the San Martin and saw ,in Chrono 24 ,a Seaweed green , titanium Seiko LX Springdrive , the Rolls Royce of Seiko, at half the new price ( $3,400) and bought it
It's my Grail and just fits me well having 8 inch wrists
And the watch is my daily as it's so light . I look at it often and never tire of the great redesignied looks and the smooth sweep. I love Seiko divers .
So I bought the Ali Express homage then convinced myself to buy the original
I am afraid the homage is miles from the Original with the Grand Seiko polishing and movement and the seaweed texture dial . It has served it's purpose and sold
Collectors would love a springdrive and I don't wear dress watches so I am happy it's in a beautiful redesignied Seiko Diver and only 500 exist
In Green .
I have a few Swiss watches but nothing beats a springdrive diver on my big wrist
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the san martin sn0144 is better looking in person, the camera doesn't capture how truly beautiful the dial looks
It really doesn’t. I’ve been trying to capture it. But very hard to do.
No I agree. I had a Tissot and a San Martin in the hand the other day and the Tissot Seastar wasn't made as well as the San Martin. They might not be on part yet but they are getting close.
Incredibly in some parts. I’m excited to see how they evolve over the next few years.
@@WATCHingJames Definitely. The Swiss and the Japanese better start taking note.
People will say: "this is stupid; my luxury watch has history, heritage, and influence on the industry, blah blah blah." Yes, that’s all true. I own a few $5k+ luxury watches myself. However, in my honest opinion, all that heritage, history, and finishing is overrated and not worth the money. I don’t buy watches because of those factors. I buy them because I like how they look, how they feel, and how they wear on my wrist.
I completely agree
Hi James, It's a great topic, and i agree with you, i to have a BB58 and an SNO144, the steeel finishing on the san martin is on another level, plus I've just received my new Farasute cronogaph, wow, the gap is closing fast, merry Christmas mate, 🎅
Happy holidays and Thanks for WATCHing
Great idea to compare these watches. You could also have taken the berny and the jeager le coultre polaris. Exactly simular in specs, but 100 times cheaper. Keep up the nice work on these type of videos.
Your concept of “similar” must be exceptionally loose.
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I do appreciate the value, but 3 of my last chinese watch purchases experienced loose band link screws days or weeks into ownership. I just got done tightening the link screws on my San Martin Zulu Time homage, Those guys need to start using some kind of loc-tite. You can never tell when the screws will back out leading to a perpetual cloud of doom following just behind you waiting for your watch to spontaneously self detach from your wrist and mock you.
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If one is a bit handy; a bit into DIY, Chinese watches are even better value. I love applying a bit of Loctite myself where it's needed. I love replacing a crystal myself, etcetera.
In my opinion the very best Chinese watches available on AliExpress are already the equal of their Swiss Made counterparts. Some models even come with Swiss Made movements such as Eta 2824-2 and the Sellita SW200. In many cases unless you are looking under considerable magnification there isn't any difference. Not all, the very best. Standards are improving though.
It’s great to see how good they are now. I can only imagine how good they will be in a few years
Some Chinese watches have all the bells and whistles of swiss now also alot of parts for Swiss watches are made in China.Also I remember late 60s early 70s people laughed at Japanese motorcycles over British where is the British motorcycle industry now?.The gap between the watches is narrowing all the time also likes of ETA clones not copies the license ran out yrs ago we now have movements like seagull ST2130, HK presicion PT 5000,then high beat movements from miyota 9015 etc combined with sapphire crystals very well finished cases etc alot of people will go for best bang for buck.I feel one main thing people and myself think about is build quality and longevity of Chinese,I have high end watches I have Chinese very similar quality at a fraction of the cost there's a lot going on but the Chinese are not to be underestimated.
I’m looking forwards to seeing what watches come out over the next few years. Thanks for WATCHing
In a few years there had better be big tariffs or import duties, otherwise San Martin et.al. will decimate the Swiss watch industry. Looking at the German Auto industry today, who would have thought 5 years ago that Merc, BMW, Porsche etc are now all in trouble because of the Chinee EV?
It will be very interesting to see how the watch industry changes over the next few years.
Love your take on this James.
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I currently have a similar dilemma but with a microbrand Vaer. It's a US brand and I'm sort of stuck between their GMT watch and a Longines Zulu. Don't get me wrong, the Zulu is an amazing watch, I tried it on my wrist the other day, but there's certain features that I like in other watches like a higher click bezel or shorter lugs. The price difference is substantial enough as well, while the movement is not that much worse in any way other than accuracy I believe. Longienes has the l844.4 and the Vaer has a Miyota 9075 I believe.
I am a big fan of Vaer. I loved mine. Thanks for WATCHing
9075 is a high end miyota movement. You could always ask Vaer to regulate it for you before they ship. You never know, they might do it for a few bucks or so. Failling that, if you have a local watch maker they would prolly do it for a twenty. I do my own and I find they can be regulated to Cosc with a 8 second or so delta between positions. Rotor spin might be the bigger problem. I own several 9000 series and dont really notice or care. When its done 10 years or so, just change the movement and your good for another 10 years.
I agree with you and have a similar philosophy. The sqiss arent 10 times better but you pay 10 times the price.I have owned at least a dozen Chinese aliX watches and have mostly been disappointed. For various reasons, quality, design, wrist feel. They are good "for the price". But im fortunate enough to pay more and feel you generally get more up to about $1000usd. I know many people love homages but i find them empty, particularly if its a clone of a current model. I dont mind homages of discontinued models especially older ones. For me, originallity and good deaign is really important. Thats why im a Seiko fan even if the quality often isn't there.
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Of course when i start to buy a watch the design is first and foremost, but secondly, the amount/quality of specifications per dollar is my next concern (within my personal budget of sub approx. $500) For that reason i find myself buying more AliExpress watches lately (and micro brands). Usually when the design wins out over specs it may lead me to a bigger brand. But after i like the look of the watch, the amount of watch i receive for dollars paid is my next concern.
I do think a better comparison would be entry level luxury and Micro brands to the Chinese watches. That gap is disturbingly close. Comparison of Chinese brands to all other big brand and micro brands sub $1000. how far up the sub $1000 scale can a $300 chinese watch climb?
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Another thing, just an observation, is that the watch case itself seems to have a different center of gravity on Swiss and at least some Japanese watches vs Chinese watches. Doesn't really impede function, but the Swiss and Japanese watches seem more substantial even if they aren't. Kind of difficult to explain.
Interesting. I’ve not experienced that. I do find thinner movements make watches sit down on wrist better and change how it feels.
Sometimes also the quality of the bracelet and how they are balanced with the head of the watch.
No, that's a function of how heavy the case and movement happen to be, nothing to do with the country of origin. Purely in the mind I'm afraid
James are the two best micros SAN MARTIN & BALTANY? if u had to pick only TWO
I would say that is correct. There maybe a couple of brands that are close Sugess IX&DAO perhaps.
SanMartin and Baltany can definitely satisfy a watch buyer if quality is important.
@@goldfools5445 i like WATCHDIVES too
@@goldfools5445Literally had the exact same thought. Even the lower tier AliExpress Brands are starting put out alarmingly well made watches.
I'd personally include Proxima and Hruodland as well among the top tier brands on AliExpress in terms of quality.
Cronos may need to be considered too
I order san martin the same dial with 230$ after discount coupon. this is the first aliexpress watch I ever bought and waiting the item arrive soon. I can't justify to buy swiss watch with more than 1000$ in these day.
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Low quality brands have more room for improvement so of course the gap will get smaller
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Agree homages are near identical. Believe pricing will go up as this truth takes hold. Once somebody works through the modified NH 35/34 GMT setting issue, they will have a bullet proof movement.
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Can you elaborate on this? Is it the "Wheel b intermediate setting wheel" problem? Or is it something else to look out for?
The Chinese are certainly catching up. Much of what you said here can be applied to Chinese fountain pens.
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I just bought a Seestern skin diver with Seagull ST2130 movement (28,800 BPH) for USD 159, which is amazing. Is the Glashutte SeaQ 11,000 Euros better? No way.
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A $600 USD San Martin would be right there. The QC is there. What is lacking (and may still be lacking) is design refinement and movement tech and regulation.
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It may sound stupid, but for me a big factor is branding/logo. Once the Chinese brands will start giving some f#@£s about the name, font and logo, and make an effort in that department, it will be haaaard times for Swiss brands
100%, there are watches I want to buy but the name and logo are ridiculous that I'm like nope not going to wear that LOL
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Once you get your clone/copy right (of something that took a fortune in time money and brain power for someone else to develop) you can now focus on quality with all that savings. Good job helping long standing watch firms understand they charge too much and are doomed. Clearly, it is inevitable people will buy Chinese because history/story are not that important any more.
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Switzerland have no Spy's, EMP's, or Nukes lol
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The gap in quality between a $500 Swiss automatic from Tissot and a $5000 Tudor is tiny. You're paying for the brand name.
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In decades to come, will McDonalds be as good as 5Guys? 😂😂😂
Hahahahahahaha. Unlikely
I have Cronos "Captain Willard" or Redstar "Zenith" chronograph homage and they are both really way above their prices.
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Meh i dont care about swiss luxury watches anymore, i had a few and always felt i was paying for the name. Nowadays, ive been buying japanese and chinese watches and i have many of them that i am very happy with.
It will be interesting to see how the industry evolves over the next few years. Thanks for WATCHing
You can still feel the difference with Swiss watches, if you buy carefully. Get a good one and there's a noticeable step up in clarity and refinement.
I'll pass on the homages, but Chinese watches come into their own with colours, finishes etc that you just can't get buying Swiss, and they're cheap enough to experiment with.
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Heritage is relative to time. Refinement is where the Swiss have convinced us that they are worth an arm and a leg, which to me at least, they are not worth 10x a San Martin price. Now technique and execution of complications…mmm yeah maybe you can add value to that, certainly not THAT much. Thanks for touching this controvertial topic.
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Heritage is an interesting 1.
My 2c if i was more focjsed on tbat angle id be more likely to go vintage.
To get a piece thats from an era for eg or gas some historical significance.
Thats 1 area that the chinese brands dont compete in. Vintage..as tbey obv dont have the history.
Separate pt re the finer details which also separate rhe luxury brands from tbe cbiinese brands often can only be seen close up or even with magnification..but its still there..still can be appreciated on the more expensive watches.
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As much as I’m not a fan of most Swiss watch brands they are still above almost all AE brands. There are to many trash AE brands. Even the known good ones, like San Martin, have QC issues and aren’t consistent. But they cost a lot less money.
Let’s be honest, w/ out Seiko and Miyota movements there would be no AE brands at all. The Chinese designed movements are trash. Even copies of Swiss movements, PT5000, are garbage.
And then there’s the elephant in the room, originality. There is little to none w/ AE brands. And when they do attempt, it’s almost always a disaster.
Sorry, but I’ve been collecting for over 35 years and am not judging from a small sample size. I do purchase and will continue to purchase select watches from AE. But at the end of the day they are copes of known designs w/ Japanese designed movements at reasonable prices w/ quality that is all over the place.
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Many who watch this and other channels that cover AE watches don’t want to hear it, but everything you’ve said is true. They don’t care about originality or they’d be buying affordable watches from Seiko, Citizen, or any of the hundreds of microbrands out there. They just want the look of famous brands, with sapphire and ceramic at less than $200. I’ve heard so many commenters call some SanMartin design original when it’s clearly ripped from another brand. Ultimately, it’s not my place to correct them, but I can’t help but get depressed by the way they view watches as commodities. Affordable originality exists and it’s way more interesting than a $70 Daytona clone with a quartz movement and sapphire glass.
Good subject and video
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I've heard rumours that San Martin and the like, presently are not really 'the best' of Chinese watch manufacturing.
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Heritage... what does rhat mean? If a company is revived by another person or campany purchasing it and raising it drom the dead, does that company still have heritage?
For example, does Hamilton have any heritage? It used to be an American company built in America, but now it's not. Does today's Hamilton have any connection to yesterday's. Or is it just rhe design - and how is that different from homage designs?
I’ve had similar thoughts.
Don't zoom in with your 2D eyes..... Wear it with your 3D wrist (and other senses) FFS.
The big difference is the workforce lol. Chinese children on 0.28 a day v Swiss Adults on 28.00 an hour.
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That turbine link appears to be dead for me. Even if I set my region to Australia. Unfortunately when I search for other instances of supposedly the same watch, they all come with a super basic version of the movement, with barely any decoration and no regulator indication needle.
Thanks for letting me know bits probably time to update those. Thanks for WATCHing
Ok upon further research it seems the movement they are using now is the seagull 3620 which has a more simple finish of Geneva stripes and a smaller regulator indicating needle. Your version is the 3621 with that quirky decoration which tbh was a selling point for me. Funnily enough there’s also someone selling a clone of this watch with a janky painted turbine disk and the 3621 movement for about half the price on Ali. I think I’ll steer clear of that one. lol
@@WATCHingJames Well I'm not sure how these affiliate links work, but I clicked on your dead link and switched out the item number for one I know exists, at a store I've used before and bit the bullet for about 130usd shipped. Hope Ali can toss you a couple of bucks for that anyway. A little sad about the 3620 vs the 3621 but the 3620 is an incredibly good movement, and if the watch turns out to be as good as it sounds, I might end up swapping it for a more highly decorated equivalent or kick off a project polishing one up for myself. Cheers! PS good call sticking a deployant on there. I put them on all my watches but this one in particular needs one, and it's great you can buy sterile ones of this style. IYKYK.
Luxury brands continue to put up prices beyond the reach of most people. This is where Ali dominates that large swathe of the market. Well established mid level brands are losing out to Ali because they are not offering the same specs as Ali watches can.
Even using the same movements, they'll be 200-400 dollars more expensive and that's just unacceptable. You're literally using the same seiko movement and want to charge more because of where it's made? You didn't even make the movement! So, that scale that Chinese watches can be made at is great, and now that they're cutting out the middle man and selling direct is everything.
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@@robbied4766 I had that experience with an Islander watch. I wanted an skx007 as I had seen my mates watch and liked it. When I checked the spec, it seemed a bit low. Pressed clasp, hollow end links, push pin bracelet with rolled links, glass crystal, and no hand winding for £300. Then I found Islander selling an identical watch with solid end links, milled clasp, screw links and solid links, sapphire and hand wind and hacking. I bought it for £295. When I put it on I cant help but think to myself that this is the watch that Seiko should have made and been selling.
I suppose we will know the Chinese watch has equaled the Swiss is when a Swiss brand homages a Chinese brand...
Hahahahaha. Now that would be fun to see.
Their prices are going up too. Would rather purchase an entry level or mid tier Swiss watch knowing that it can be repaired and that it wasn’t put together in a sweatshop. Not gonna spend $300 on an AliExpress beater
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All of the chinese watches can be repaired in exactly the same way as swiss watches. Some are even cheaper to service or repair as the movement can simply be exchanged for a new one at a fraction of the cost of a swiss watch repair. Most of the factories stopped being "sweatshops" years ago as it was bad for the brand image. Most £300 chinese watches are far removed from being beaters. Maybe £100 are beaters, but then you would take this into account before purchase. I had a high end swiss watch that I sent for service and appraisal. The estimated cost for repairs and refinish would turn your hair grey overnight, and thats putting it politely. I sold the watch as is, and put the money into about 5 mid brand swiss and about 10 micro or chinese brand watches. Saved me from having my watch hacked of in a machete robbery too.
Slightly bizarre comparison between the Tudor and San Martin. Why on earth didn’t you pick the San Martin version of the Tudor BB. That would have made much more sense.
Because I don’t own that one at the moment. Thanks for WATCHing
1990 = Buy a Rolex
2024 = Buy a Rolex
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There are a few factors that lead to believe that the gap is still enormous. Firstly, they say they use 316L but in many cases they could be using a lower grade of stainless steel. Chinese brands aren’t exactly known for being 100% forthright. I’ve had a few where I’ve realised that some of the components of the clasp aren’t stainless steel at all. The movements are in many cases Seiko ou Myota movements that normally equipe similarly priced watches from big brands. Additionally, the PT5000 isn’t minimally reliable, it might breakdown very quickly. The bracelets are micro-brand level of quality. That’s not a bad thing, but they’re still a long way behind the bracelets from brands like TUDOR. All that being said, I do agree that AliExpress watches have gotten significantly better but they still have a long way to go to even come close to high-end Swiss brands.
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When comparing watches of approximately the same price, the better Ali Express brands are considerably better than their Swiss counterparts.
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Chinese watch manufacturers are focusing on finish and they are making great strides and that gap is definitely closing. If that is your main priority then you are home free. Movements, horology, heritage, and originality fuel my watch buying, and the Chinese are still well behind the curve there. Exceptions? Sure, brands like Atelier Wen bring it hard and fast to compete with the Swiss and Germans but they also charge luxury prices like the Swiss and Germans. Christopher Ward is doing the same thing.
I own many, many Chinese watches from all the usual suspects and I enjoy wearing them all the time. Some of them are turning into nice little microbrands, but they are not and never will be in the same category as my Swiss, German, and Japanese luxury watches and likely never will be. It's just the way the market works.
Great topic and great video, btw. I always enjoy your perspective on the heady stuff. Too many watch salesman in You Tube, not nearly enough watch and watch industry reviewers.
Thank you. This stuff is going around in my head and it’s a fun and creative way to “get it out”. Hahahahaha.
But really I just like talking watches.
"they are not and never will be in the same category as my Swiss, German, and Japanese luxury watches and likely never will be." - The fact that you can say this about Chinese watches while unconsciously recognizing that Japanese watches are now firmly within the "luxury" arena... when in living memory, Japanese watches were regarded EXACTLY as you regard Chinese watches now... is pretty funny.
@kennethg9277 Get back to me in around 50+ years or so and we can revisit this.
Luxury vs Ali. This is easy for me. Do I wear and expensive suit everyday? No. I wear chinos and a collared shirt to work. Ali works just fine with that.
A great way to consider them. Thanks for WATCHing
Tudor has always been owned by Rolex so any "homage" comparison is moot.
@@jontpt Rolex does not own Tudor.
They are owned by the same foundation.
Six of one, half dozen of the other
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Excellent topic!
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I’d pay a little more if the Chinese watches have ( consistently) 28800 beat
With the more common use of the 9000 series miyotas we will be getting that.
I really couldn't care less about specs when almost 99% of these Ali brands are just stealing designs. To each their own, but that is not what gets my juices flowing when I'm looking to buy a watch.
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Is not true people buy expensive wathes in the us in payments .
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Currently, in the year 2025, luxury watches have transcended their original function of telling time. Their value lies primarily in the prestige they convey, becoming symbols of status and authentic pieces of high-end men's jewelry.
Therefore, even in the hypothetical scenario where Aliexpress watches were to surpass Swiss watches in quality, they would still lack the symbolic value and prestige associated with Swiss watchmaking.
En la actualidad, año 2025, los relojes de lujo han trascendido su función original de indicar la hora. Su valor radica principalmente en el prestigio que confieren, convirtiéndose en símbolos de estatus y auténticas piezas de alta joyería masculina.
Por ello, incluso en el hipotético caso de que los relojes de Aliexpress superaran en calidad a los relojes suizos, seguirían careciendo del valor simbólico y prestigio asociados a la relojería suiza.
You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.
However, do you happen to have a DeLorean Time Machine and went to 2025?
@@MrZman0004 Thank you so much for your kind words. Unfortunately, I only have a time machine purchased from Aliexpress, which is limited to traveling just nine days into the future. So, indeed, I find myself in the year 2025.
@@SestoMazzanti Hahaha! Awesome.
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All it will take is some very clever marketing of chinese watches to a western audience and a bit of time. Everyone laughed at grand seiko back in the fifties when they submitted movements to the observatory competitions. By 1967 they were almost top of the manufacture lists. They got so good that the swiss watch industry cancelled the competition as they saw they were about to have their faces rubbed in it by the Japanese. Then the quartz watches created in Japan destroyed the swiss watch industry wholesale. Now it is Chinas turn.
yes its closing. first it was the quartz crisis. now they got to deal with the aliexpress micro brand crisis. in this economy combined with those high prices on luxury watches the swiss will lose more and more customers
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No Erebus lol San Martin whoops it hahahaha
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Hi, A question on the working conditions with these Chinese watch brands? Does this consideration bother you? And have you actually visited these factories without the Chinese authorities supervision? I have read the conditions at apple’s Chinese watch factories are so bad, they had to install a net to keep workers there from committing suicide by jumping off of the top of the Apple watch factory buildings. Personally I have bought and enjoyed high quality inexpensive watches from the Chinese, but have always wondered at what ‘cost’ these watches actually have to Chinese people? Regards,
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The watches you compare seem to have not much more in common than showin´ the same time.
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They are getting closer. Im in a position to be able to have owned some very nice, high end watches. I get more enjoyment from affordable watches. I love the hunt. I love the community and the hobby. The price and made in Switzerland is far from everything. I truly feel sorry for those who can only enjoy a watch if it costs 4 or 5 figures at minimum. Look at all the enjoyment they miss out on. How sad that is. They are victims of their own success.
Absolutely. There are such great affordable watches and now with what is coming out of china we just have so many more options available to us.
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Thank you. While I am a pretty new subscriber I am genuinely enjoying your channel. Glad to see that you are enjoying the hobby too as some with channels are just doing it to promote a business and are in it for the love of the dollar and not the love of the watches that we all share. Please keep up the good work and keep having a great time enjoying these great watches . - a .@@WATCHingJames
Yes they are
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Sea-gull watches have been making quality watches for quite a while with in-house movements .
Very interesting to compare what you are saying here to the auto industry. Up until recently people were willing to pay a lot more for "made in Germany" - which is really mostly just a marketing concept, which worked well for years, but now seems to be coming to an end. Chinese E-cars are BETTER. And the German car industry is DYING. Will this happen in the watch world? Part of the issue is that, as you say, "Chinese quality" 20 years ago is not what it is today. It has CHANGED. A lot of people seem to fail to understand that. Especially Germans....- the success of their economy in the last couple decades being down to championing "made in Germany", a corollary of which must be that "Chinese quality is and always will be terrible." Big mistake...
It is a great comparison and it will be interesting to see how things change over the next few years.
Great video -- a fair, subjectve, analysis. But can two companies under the same ownership make homages of one another? Tudor watches were originally equipped with off-the-shelf movements paired with Rolex cases and bracelets, allowing Tudor to provide reliability and quality at a more affordable price. They aren't homages of Rolex in my opinion. I'd rather buy used "heritage" brand models (Swiss or otherwise) than new AliExpress models as history is important to me as is not directly supporting the CCP. Each to their own eh.
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Very interesting topic.
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If the cheapies improvement their movements, I’ll buy one of those stanharts , until then…
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I have swiss watches and ali watches. My swiss watches i am wearing during the weekend, my ali watches i am wearing at the office. For me the difference is making a scratch on a 4000 euro swiss watch compared to making a scratch on a 150 euro ali watch.....some see the homage thing as a problem, well, since i know that the so overhyped and really expensive omega moonwatch is not a original design by omega but from a 1954 rodania, i am ok with wearing a homage watch. If the big swiss companys like omega or davosa or tudor or revue thommen can get away with it, the chinese can do also. San Martin watches quality is really really fantastic. The price of swiss labour is the big problem and is making it difficult for brands like tissot or certina to compete with the best ali watches.
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Aliexpress crisis 😂
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They all cook with water 🤷♂. In Germany we say :"Quality is the fulfillment of a requirement." Just think about it........
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Buen video socio😊
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How much is aliexpress paying for this advertising
I doubt my videos have any impact on their sales.
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Heritage canalso be a negative... I know this is a controversial opinion, but heritage can be baggage... Many ofthe brands just iterate over the same designs ane only make minor tweaks (think of what Rolex, Tudor, Omega, etc.). And sometimes even the "big" announcements are not really all that big (think Kith Heuer and MoonSwatch). And then there are the insulting money-grabs: I'm looking at you Patek Cubitus.
The chinese and micro brands are motivated to do more experimentation and interesting things, even when they are iterating over heritage designs.
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San Martin
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the chinese have gotten very good at reverse engineering everything.
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Correction. The Chinese have gotten very good at engineering.
The gap is not getting 'smaller and smaller'. Swiss watches have regulated, dust-free, long-lasting movements with minimal deviation and/or a large power reserve. They have a better resale value, customer service, guarantees and there is a service network and shops where you can try the watches out. Nothing of this has changed in recent years.
So Seiko movements are not long-lasting?
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The grossly inflated markup on these items is in no way justified by the bloated sales network you're describing. As for "customer service", Grand Seiko gives good customer service. Rolex? Not so much. Plenty of videos from owners proving that at this point.
@kennethg9277 This video and my comment is about Chinese vs Swiss watches.
@@adrianhjordan1981 The basic NH3x and Miyota 82xx movements in Chinese watches are not as long lasting as Swiss movements because they often contain dust and never contain premium materials like Glucydur, Parachrom or SPRON. The anti-corrosiveness and stated water resistance of Chinese watches is often doubtful.
I don’t think a Chinese watch can be a grail, that’s the difference.
Says who? People have different ideas of what a grail watch is
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👍
👍
🎄🎄 James
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At the heart of capitalism is the idea that high returns attract competition. That's what you are seeing.
What's interesting about watch manufacturing is how little innovation there has been. That makes it comparatively easy to produce facsimiles as it's just a quality game. China can't make a car as well as Toyota because they keep moving the goalposts but they will be able to make a better watch than the Swiss.
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