Love the Mormonish podcast/videos. You are my favorite podcast/RUclips videos on post-mormon and "moronish" topics! This series with Dr. John Lundwall is awesome! Thanks for doing these!
Yeah, I also learned Japanese on my mission, and I kind of laughed because a lot of what Rebecca kept saying was blowing her mind, was something that was already intuitively obvious to me as someone who learned two syllabaries and some of a logosyllabary as a second language. Most Japanese missionaries only ever learned a handful of kanji (the logosyllabary). A few hundred, and most of those are the fairly easy ones, that you see all the time, and/or that actually look like the thing that they represent. (A door is just a square in kanji, it's a picture of a door). I'd say in my mission over two years working with something like 400 total co-missionaries, there were probably single-digit number of people who learned more than 500 characters. They have a subset of "all kanji" called the jouyou kanji, which is a set of 2,136 characters that are kind of the "literary baseline", this is "I can read a newspaper by time I graduate high school." Twelve rigorous years to learn 2k characters. If the characters on the Caractors document is logosyllabic, remember that it's not just "hard" to learn, it requires actual infrastructure. You have to have an educational system that regularly produces scholars who are able to read and write this system of information, and society is structured so that they have the time, space, practice materials, food, housing, etc., that they need to be able to do this. If King Benjamin had his talk written down and copies of the text given to everyone who couldn't hear, implying that a majority of the culture is literate, they would have to have been way beyond just trying to survive in terms of technological achievement. Their GDP (measured with any arbitrary measure of collective productivity) would have had to rival that of modern post-renaissance industrial society to be able to collectively bear that burden. Also, John, you went round and round and round showing evidence indicating that Joseph Smith believed that there was a magic writing system that could contain lots of meaning. Why didn't you ever show the place where Joseph Smith's own scribes state that belief outright?!?!?!? "This is called Za Ki=oan hiash, or chal sidon hisah. This character is in the fifth degree, independent and abitrary. It may be preseved in the fifth degree while it stands independent and arbitrary: That is, without a straight mark inserted above or below it. By inserting a straight mark over it thus, it increases its signification five degrees: by inserting two straight lines, thus: its signification is increased five times more. By inserting three straight lines, thus its signification is again increased five times more than the last. By counting the numbers of straight lines, or considering them as qualifying adjectives we have the degrees of comparison There are five connecting parts of speech in the above character, called Za-ki on hish These five connecting parts of speech, for verbs, participles - prepositions, conjuntions, and adverbs. In Translating this character, this subject must be continued until there are as many of these connecting parts of speech used as there are connections or connecting parts found in the character. But whinever the character is found with one horizontal line, as at (2) the subject must be continued until five times the number of connecting parts of speech are used; or, the full sense of the writer is not conveyed. When two horizontal lines occur, the number of connecting parts of speech are continued five times furthr - or five degrees. And when three horizontal lines are found, the number of connections are to be increased five times further. The character alone has 5 parts of speech: increase by one straight line thus 5x5 is 25 by 2 horizontal lines thus 25x5 = 125; and by 3 horizontal lines thus:- 125x5 = 625." -Joseph Smith Papers (www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/grammar-and-alphabet-of-the-egyptian-language-circa-july-circa-november-1835/7) It's so clear that he was trying to write down rules he could use to convince people that he didn't actually need hundreds of plates, but that a dozen or fewer would have sufficed because 625 words could fit into a single character with 3 horizontal lines over it. But to have a written language where a single character can carry so much meaning, the language has to have more characters in the entire lexicon than there are atoms in the entire universe. John, I was doing this exact same "data compression" (my words, or "textual density" from you) analysis of Joseph's attempts to sell his con while I was deconstructing, because I think my mind works similarly to yours. I was after you of course, but before this podcast so I identified with what you said about it being hard to find anybody else talking about this problem! I feel a lot of kinship with you, and thank you for putting this together. It's been immensely validating to me.
Names don't have to be spelled out. For example, Mitsubishi, a Japanese surname, means 3 diamonds; instead of spelling it out in 10 Roman characters or 4 syllabary characters, they use the Chinese character for 3 and the Chinese character for diamond. Even with that, you can't get to what is necessary for the Book of Mormon to be true.
It's funny how many hoops the apologists have to jump through to fit the text of the BoM onto the plates, only to have Nephi duplicate chapter after chapter of Isaiah with no significant changes, which was available to both the Nephites and to us latter day Christians. 😅
The harder the plate, the harder the stylus has to be or it will wear faster. What evidence is there for hard materials other then gold, brass, bronze, or copper. These materials are not that hard. One needs a technology that I don't think they had at that time nor is there any evidence for high technology. Extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence.
Calls to mind "If we have truth, [it] cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not truth, it ought to be harmed." J. Reuben Clark, as recorded by D. Michael Quinn, J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years. Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1983, p. 24 The historical truth matters, and if one wants to embrace "mythical truth," that's fine, but don't confuse the two and then condemn those who call out the confound.
Dr. Lundwall said we need 20-40 words per square inch on rice paper Tumbaga. I don’t know how thick it is (thin enough to roll into an amulet) but the Petelia Orphic gold tablet (gold leaf) is approximately 4.5x2.7 cm and has 450 characters. There is a tear with some missing text so the original inscription is estimated to have had about 489 characters. With an area of about 1.876 in^2, that comes to 260.6 characters per in^(2). The English translation is 117 words which comes to 62.37 English words per in^2. The characters are extremely small because of the simplicity of the ancient Greek alphabet used. More complex characters, such as found in a logosyllabic language, couldn’t be carved as small. However, this Petelia tablet makes the Book of Mormon gold plates ever so slightly more plausible.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this series. Thank you for these. Learned some Chinese on my mission to Taiwan. Such a different writing system. The puzzle pieces are fitting together for the first time for me too. I was always confused by these "Caracters" it makes much more sense now. Can't wait for the next episode! I have always been fascinated by John Dee as well. The magical world view makes perfect sense. Excellent episode; I am learning so much. A free University level course. ❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎
don’t forget that in his own words Joseph smith said that he would look at each character then spell it out if necessary and then give the translation of that character which means one character = one word. it just doesn’t work as described
Please do one on the temple ceremony. I have a friend who says she saw the writings on the walls in Egypt showing Egyptus and the ceremony being given to Adam. Is like the information so I can know the real story of possible.
It's highly doubtful that an Egyptian temple dedicated to the holy rites of their religion would include images of Adam, a figure from the Old Testament.
@@TheBackyardProfessor like the LDS tours in Central America where tour guides give faith affirming details of the ruins that aren’t supported by the evidence.
An interesting thing about the cartouche is that it represented the earth being touched by the sky. The king's name was represented as being written in the stars, he was already immortal. His name also included symbols that represented their gods, where the phonetics of his name matched the gods name. Just to reinforce that this high station that is impossibly out of reach of anyone else. From my understanding, this is unique to Egypt. Other god-king cultures used other symbols to denote the grandeur of the king. I don't think it's plausible, considering how seriously all god-king cultures take disrespecting the god-king (death), that there was any form of Egyptian writing where the king's name was written short hand. Using a shortened form of a name denotes familiarity. Who is familiar to the king? Only the gods, of course. Even the god's names could be rendered as merely a symbol. Nothing in Egypt was above the king.
So when did this world view fade out of the church? Did early American converts share this world view? Did Brigham Young? Did the wave of English converts? Did John Taylor?
It's still very prevalent, but called by different names. Put profits are called seers, just like Sally Chase and Joseph Smith were seers, but modern profits accomplish their "seeing" through visitations from dead people (but NPT psychics, heaven forbid) rather than by looking in rocks in hats.
It hasn't fully faded out yet. I recently had an EQ president in Utah who was into water witching, and claimed to have found good spots in which to dig wells. Some degree of magical thinking has to persist in order to anyone to believe Mormonism.
The only way it could work is if the person engraving the plates had to use the interpreter stone to find out how to draw each character so as to encode the desired meaning, and then the translator had to use the interpreter stone to decode each character. It's a sort of spiritual/magic data compression system. Naturally it would be unintelligible to anyone else, and either somehow true or an elaborate fraud. Always so convenient for whoever is in control of the narrative.
Hangul (Korean script) would then be an abugeeda. Japanese has 2 syllabaries, each with 46 characters. Both also use Chinese characters, so there are modern examples of logo syllabaries being used with other alphabets. It doesn't really allow for higher concentration of words per square inch, though.
Why wouldn’t it allow for more words per square inch? I understand that logographic written languages are more information dense but, at the same time, are probably much harder to etch such complex, multi-lined characters on metal surfaces at a size necessary for an apologetic to work. Just curious as to why you make that statement?
@GM-ei6mo partially because of what you said; characters can't be rendered as small due to the increases lines. There is a Chinese character used in Japanese with 84 lines (Taito). Most are smaller but many require over 10 strokes. Another reason is how the characters are used; Japanese uses 6,355 Chinese characters, but has approximately 500,000 words. This means many words are created using multiple characters to create the meaning. Temple is 2 characters; God and structure. A third is looking at various books I've had or seen in Japanese and comparing them to the English equivalents. The page count is usually within 10%. While I have less experience with Chinese, all the books I've seen have similar results.
@@r.l.5964 thanks for the response! You’re saying Japanese books are within 10% of the page count of their English versions meaning 100 English pages comes out to 90 pages in Japanese?
1:54:58 The leaders of the Community of Christ came up with the logical conclusion that the entire thing was made up. They moved past it and accepted the BofM as moral stories.
@@timhazeltine3256 oh then the church is true. I got my answer off some quick searches so it might come down to what is full language or beginning forms? Either way I don’t care. BoM is made up.
@@byonnoyb Christ was killed in 32 AD. By Roman’s…who spoke Latin. I said Latin originated in 250 BC. That is 282 years before Christs death. How is that off. The video needed Latin to be around in 500 BC.
So......Reformed Egyptian is a hologram (holograph?) I'm not technologically smart enough to use those terms, but my credit card has one of those things...
I am pretty sure that Dr. Lundwall purchased his copy of Charles Anthon's 1841 book from Mark Hoffman. I am surpriised the Mormon Church hadn't already purchased it through front men.
Very interesting episode. I have really enjoyed all your shows and the discussions of how bat crazy Mormon truth claims are. However, it is really not that complicated. If you read the official story of the First Vision, you should know "beyond a shadow of a doubt with every fiber of your soul" that Mormonism is a crock of absurd lies and rubbish. And, if that doesn't do it, the story of Moroni spending the night with Joseph certainly should do the trick. Forget for the moment all of the Mormon Church's astounding lies and deceptions, Mormons who know these stories and still pretend to believe are being intellectually dishonest with themselves, their families and friends and deserve what the church does to them. What kind of god would require "his children" to believe such bullsh*t?
I hope you’re an atheist as your comment is applicable to believers of any religion. To call out Mormons for believing in batshit crazy ideas without regard to other religions is a biased take. The human cognitive revolution 70 thousand years ago gave H. sapiens the ability to believe in fiction which, in turn, allowed us to cooperate in numbers far greater than other animals and is the very reason for our success as a species (see Sapiens, Yuval Harari). Believing in fiction is baked into our culture from our own genetic programming. To say that Mormons who know the stories and still “pretend” to believe are intellectually dishonest is to ignore the entirety of modern human history. People who are born and raised in the various religions of the world, see the world through the magical worldview of their religion. Any counter evidence they come across during their mortal sojourn is filtered and adjusted to maintain that view as indoctrinated to. *If* they permit themselves to go against the deep indoctrination and even look at the evidence, let alone digest it, they may at some point overcome the indoctrinated beliefs and reject the magical worldview, but that often takes a lot of evidence and a lot of courage to even get to that point. I knew the stories and fully believed them because I am human. I eventually encountered the evidence and rejected that worldview also because I am human.
@@aredesuyoI agree. The book I referenced, Sapiens by Harari, does a fantastic job of laying out all the fictions humans believe in. Nations, economic systems, religions, etc. Some are just more egregious than others, namely religions.
Religions hardly constitute a more egregious fiction than the state or certain economic systems, not by a long way. State power + bad economic ideas has been an utterly deadly combination historically. Harari is just as religious as the rest of us, except that his religion (scientism, positivism) is horribly corrosive and anti-human. It's the type of thinking that mass-murdering totalitarian regimes thrive on. One of the unfortunate things about Mormonism is that it pumps itself up so much in our minds (we're the only true church, etc.) that when we finally find out how false it is, we're kind of set up to fall into nihilism. The human mind will pick a religion, no matter what. So it's important that we proactively find one that's actually good, lest we end up worse off. Matthew 12: 43-45 addresses this phenomenon. Orthodox Christianity is the replacement I've found, and it's taught me so much about how wrong I was.
Rebecca, you keep saying, "Dr. Lundwell". Please! It's LUNDWALL. LUND and then WALL. Lundwall. Please Rebecca, get it right. (from Dan, John's older brother (both wiser and better looking)). 🙂
Ha Ha! Nice to meet you! I, Rebecca was raised in Washington State. And we have a little accent where our "A's" sound like "E's or "U's" I will work on it! We just love your brother!
This is just a podcast and an echo chamber. There is no science here, just opinion. You haven't read and studied Grover's work at all. Please read it and do more just cast doubt. There is no science here folks. Sorry, you guys are amateurs.
John actually has read Grover’s work and we even sent Grover’s book to an Egyptologist who responded that it is complete malarkey she couldn’t even finish reading the book it made her so upset.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 I super the appreciate the honest dialogue here. I'm curious who this Egyptologist was the reviewed Grover's work. The work is a pretty short read and has a clear Hieratic lexicon dictionary associated with it.
![Dark Days Ahead For BYU Staff? [The Mormon Newscast Jan 6th 2025]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jTqCnJTE1ME/mqdefault.jpg)
![Method Writing: The First Four Concepts - Jack Grapes [FULL INTERVIEW]](/img/1.gif)
Love the Mormonish podcast/videos. You are my favorite podcast/RUclips videos on post-mormon and "moronish" topics! This series with Dr. John Lundwall is awesome! Thanks for doing these!
Yeah, I also learned Japanese on my mission, and I kind of laughed because a lot of what Rebecca kept saying was blowing her mind, was something that was already intuitively obvious to me as someone who learned two syllabaries and some of a logosyllabary as a second language. Most Japanese missionaries only ever learned a handful of kanji (the logosyllabary). A few hundred, and most of those are the fairly easy ones, that you see all the time, and/or that actually look like the thing that they represent. (A door is just a square in kanji, it's a picture of a door). I'd say in my mission over two years working with something like 400 total co-missionaries, there were probably single-digit number of people who learned more than 500 characters. They have a subset of "all kanji" called the jouyou kanji, which is a set of 2,136 characters that are kind of the "literary baseline", this is "I can read a newspaper by time I graduate high school." Twelve rigorous years to learn 2k characters. If the characters on the Caractors document is logosyllabic, remember that it's not just "hard" to learn, it requires actual infrastructure. You have to have an educational system that regularly produces scholars who are able to read and write this system of information, and society is structured so that they have the time, space, practice materials, food, housing, etc., that they need to be able to do this. If King Benjamin had his talk written down and copies of the text given to everyone who couldn't hear, implying that a majority of the culture is literate, they would have to have been way beyond just trying to survive in terms of technological achievement. Their GDP (measured with any arbitrary measure of collective productivity) would have had to rival that of modern post-renaissance industrial society to be able to collectively bear that burden.
Also, John, you went round and round and round showing evidence indicating that Joseph Smith believed that there was a magic writing system that could contain lots of meaning. Why didn't you ever show the place where Joseph Smith's own scribes state that belief outright?!?!?!?
"This is called Za Ki=oan hiash, or chal sidon hisah. This character is in the fifth degree, independent and abitrary. It may be preseved in the fifth degree while it stands independent and arbitrary: That is, without a straight mark inserted above or below it. By inserting a straight mark over it thus, it increases its signification five degrees: by inserting two straight lines, thus: its signification is increased five times more. By inserting three straight lines, thus its signification is again increased five times more than the last. By counting the numbers of straight lines, or considering them as qualifying adjectives we have the degrees of comparison There are five connecting parts of speech in the above character, called Za-ki on hish These five connecting parts of speech, for verbs, participles - prepositions, conjuntions, and adverbs. In Translating this character, this subject must be continued until there are as many of these connecting parts of speech used as there are connections or connecting parts found in the character. But whinever the character is found with one horizontal line, as at (2) the subject must be continued until five times the number of connecting parts of speech are used; or, the full sense of the writer is not conveyed. When two horizontal lines occur, the number of connecting parts of speech are continued five times furthr - or five degrees. And when three horizontal lines are found, the number of connections are to be increased five times further. The character alone has 5 parts of speech: increase by one straight line thus 5x5 is 25 by 2 horizontal lines thus 25x5 = 125; and by 3 horizontal lines thus:- 125x5 = 625." -Joseph Smith Papers (www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/grammar-and-alphabet-of-the-egyptian-language-circa-july-circa-november-1835/7)
It's so clear that he was trying to write down rules he could use to convince people that he didn't actually need hundreds of plates, but that a dozen or fewer would have sufficed because 625 words could fit into a single character with 3 horizontal lines over it. But to have a written language where a single character can carry so much meaning, the language has to have more characters in the entire lexicon than there are atoms in the entire universe.
John, I was doing this exact same "data compression" (my words, or "textual density" from you) analysis of Joseph's attempts to sell his con while I was deconstructing, because I think my mind works similarly to yours. I was after you of course, but before this podcast so I identified with what you said about it being hard to find anybody else talking about this problem! I feel a lot of kinship with you, and thank you for putting this together. It's been immensely validating to me.
This series with Dr Lundwall has been outstanding and, Book of Mormon aside, so interesting. Please thank him and thank you!
Lundwall delivers!
This is my 3rd time listening to this series -BRILLIANT
Man you guys need to get Dr. Sledge from esoterica channel on to talk about the magic texts around j.s. time. That would be a cool team up
The stylus that you need for writing this small would require a very sharp fine point. This makes the wear issue even worse.
Oh they have nephite steel with diamond point. Problem solved. 😂
You would need some skilled metal working to make tool that fine. Also probably a lens to see that small.
Wow! I listened and was amazed!
And September 19 is "Talk Like a Pirate Day!"
I know what I'm listening to tonight!
Hey, John, nice to see you again.
Names don't have to be spelled out. For example, Mitsubishi, a Japanese surname, means 3 diamonds; instead of spelling it out in 10 Roman characters or 4 syllabary characters, they use the Chinese character for 3 and the Chinese character for diamond.
Even with that, you can't get to what is necessary for the Book of Mormon to be true.
This was amazing! It all just fits and makes sense.
It's funny how many hoops the apologists have to jump through to fit the text of the BoM onto the plates, only to have Nephi duplicate chapter after chapter of Isaiah with no significant changes, which was available to both the Nephites and to us latter day Christians. 😅
The harder the plate, the harder the stylus has to be or it will wear faster. What evidence is there for hard materials other then gold, brass, bronze, or copper. These materials are not that hard. One needs a technology that I don't think they had at that time nor is there any evidence for high technology. Extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence.
Calls to mind "If we have truth, [it] cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not truth, it ought to be harmed."
J. Reuben Clark, as recorded by D. Michael Quinn, J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years. Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1983, p. 24 The historical truth matters, and if one wants to embrace "mythical truth," that's fine, but don't confuse the two and then condemn those who call out the confound.
Dr. Lundwall said we need 20-40 words per square inch on rice paper Tumbaga. I don’t know how thick it is (thin enough to roll into an amulet) but the Petelia Orphic gold tablet (gold leaf) is approximately 4.5x2.7 cm and has 450 characters. There is a tear with some missing text so the original inscription is estimated to have had about 489 characters.
With an area of about 1.876 in^2, that comes to 260.6 characters per in^(2). The English translation is 117 words which comes to 62.37 English words per in^2.
The characters are extremely small because of the simplicity of the ancient Greek alphabet used. More complex characters, such as found in a logosyllabic language, couldn’t be carved as small. However, this Petelia tablet makes the Book of Mormon gold plates ever so slightly more plausible.
Amazing analysis! I think the magic angle does explain a lot.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this series. Thank you for these. Learned some Chinese on my mission to Taiwan. Such a different writing system. The puzzle pieces are fitting together for the first time for me too. I was always confused by these "Caracters" it makes much more sense now. Can't wait for the next episode! I have always been fascinated by John Dee as well. The magical world view makes perfect sense. Excellent episode; I am learning so much. A free University level course. ❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎
Glad you enjoy it. We are thinking of starting the Jerald Tanner University (JTU)! Then Canadians can donate to Mormonish!!! Lol
Thanks!
Thank you so much! We appreciate your support!
don’t forget that in his own words Joseph smith said that he would look at each character then spell it out if necessary and then give the translation of that character which means one character = one word. it just doesn’t work as described
Please do one on the temple ceremony. I have a friend who says she saw the writings on the walls in Egypt showing Egyptus and the ceremony being given to Adam. Is like the information so I can know the real story of possible.
It's highly doubtful that an Egyptian temple dedicated to the holy rites of their religion would include images of Adam, a figure from the Old Testament.
Utterly impossible. That is LDS interpretation
@@TheBackyardProfessor like the LDS tours in Central America where tour guides give faith affirming details of the ruins that aren’t supported by the evidence.
An interesting thing about the cartouche is that it represented the earth being touched by the sky. The king's name was represented as being written in the stars, he was already immortal. His name also included symbols that represented their gods, where the phonetics of his name matched the gods name. Just to reinforce that this high station that is impossibly out of reach of anyone else. From my understanding, this is unique to Egypt. Other god-king cultures used other symbols to denote the grandeur of the king. I don't think it's plausible, considering how seriously all god-king cultures take disrespecting the god-king (death), that there was any form of Egyptian writing where the king's name was written short hand. Using a shortened form of a name denotes familiarity. Who is familiar to the king? Only the gods, of course. Even the god's names could be rendered as merely a symbol. Nothing in Egypt was above the king.
The plates would too heavy to carry according to Mrs Tanner..
"The narrative is falsifiable" - mic drop. So many other religious claims are too. Falseness matters.
So when did this world view fade out of the church? Did early American converts share this world view? Did Brigham Young? Did the wave of English converts? Did John Taylor?
It's still very prevalent, but called by different names. Put profits are called seers, just like Sally Chase and Joseph Smith were seers, but modern profits accomplish their "seeing" through visitations from dead people (but NPT psychics, heaven forbid) rather than by looking in rocks in hats.
Are you referring to the magical world view? Or the view on Egyptian and primeval "Adamic" culture?
It hasn't fully faded out yet. I recently had an EQ president in Utah who was into water witching, and claimed to have found good spots in which to dig wells. Some degree of magical thinking has to persist in order to anyone to believe Mormonism.
The only way it could work is if the person engraving the plates had to use the interpreter stone to find out how to draw each character so as to encode the desired meaning, and then the translator had to use the interpreter stone to decode each character. It's a sort of spiritual/magic data compression system. Naturally it would be unintelligible to anyone else, and either somehow true or an elaborate fraud. Always so convenient for whoever is in control of the narrative.
The characters resemble automatic writing, a not uncommon feature of early to mid-19th century spiritualism.
Hangul (Korean script) would then be an abugeeda. Japanese has 2 syllabaries, each with 46 characters.
Both also use Chinese characters, so there are modern examples of logo syllabaries being used with other alphabets. It doesn't really allow for higher concentration of words per square inch, though.
Why wouldn’t it allow for more words per square inch? I understand that logographic written languages are more information dense but, at the same time, are probably much harder to etch such complex, multi-lined characters on metal surfaces at a size necessary for an apologetic to work. Just curious as to why you make that statement?
@GM-ei6mo partially because of what you said; characters can't be rendered as small due to the increases lines. There is a Chinese character used in Japanese with 84 lines (Taito). Most are smaller but many require over 10 strokes.
Another reason is how the characters are used; Japanese uses 6,355 Chinese characters, but has approximately 500,000 words. This means many words are created using multiple characters to create the meaning. Temple is 2 characters; God and structure.
A third is looking at various books I've had or seen in Japanese and comparing them to the English equivalents. The page count is usually within 10%. While I have less experience with Chinese, all the books I've seen have similar results.
@@r.l.5964 thanks for the response! You’re saying Japanese books are within 10% of the page count of their English versions meaning 100 English pages comes out to 90 pages in Japanese?
1:54:58 The leaders of the Community of Christ came up with the logical conclusion that the entire thing was made up. They moved past it and accepted the BofM as moral stories.
Did they lose a large percentage of their membership? I think membership and tithing dollars are the priority for the MFMC rather than integrity.
@@orisonorchards4251 I’m not sure they lost a lot. The continued as a church but always had a small following.
Dan Voles early Mormon Doctrine Vol 1 quotes Sidney Rigdon saying there were 14 plates
Roman writing began around 250 BC. only off by 400 years. Almost old enough…like 14 year olds to JS.
The oldest Latin inscription is from the 6th century bc.
@@timhazeltine3256 oh then the church is true. I got my answer off some quick searches so it might come down to what is full language or beginning forms? Either way I don’t care. BoM is made up.
Latin was included at the head of the cross Christ was crucified on...so, you're way off...
@@byonnoyb Christ was killed in 32 AD. By Roman’s…who spoke Latin. I said Latin originated in 250 BC. That is 282 years before Christs death. How is that off. The video needed Latin to be around in 500 BC.
So......Reformed Egyptian is a hologram (holograph?) I'm not technologically smart enough to use those terms, but my credit card has one of those things...
Faith serves Truth, Truth doesn’t serve faith. ❤
OMG, the Zohar is an iPad!
I am hearing John Dee and John Day...which is it?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dee
You know he's the king because he's the one killing everybody. The other way you know is that he doesn't have shit all over him. 😆
facts > faith
Syllaberries are so sweet
I'm pretty sure they were renamed crunch berries and marketed with the Cap'n...Abraham.
roman characters are the numbers using I V X and so on
I am pretty sure that Dr. Lundwall purchased his copy of Charles Anthon's 1841 book from Mark Hoffman. I am surpriised the Mormon Church hadn't already purchased it through front men.
Arrrrbraham
Very interesting episode. I have really enjoyed all your shows and the discussions of how bat crazy Mormon truth claims are. However, it is really not that complicated. If you read the official story of the First Vision, you should know "beyond a shadow of a doubt with every fiber of your soul" that Mormonism is a crock of absurd lies and rubbish. And, if that doesn't do it, the story of Moroni spending the night with Joseph certainly should do the trick. Forget for the moment all of the Mormon Church's astounding lies and deceptions, Mormons who know these stories and still pretend to believe are being intellectually dishonest with themselves, their families and friends and deserve what the church does to them. What kind of god would require "his children" to believe such bullsh*t?
I hope you’re an atheist as your comment is applicable to believers of any religion. To call out Mormons for believing in batshit crazy ideas without regard to other religions is a biased take. The human cognitive revolution 70 thousand years ago gave H. sapiens the ability to believe in fiction which, in turn, allowed us to cooperate in numbers far greater than other animals and is the very reason for our success as a species (see Sapiens, Yuval Harari). Believing in fiction is baked into our culture from our own genetic programming. To say that Mormons who know the stories and still “pretend” to believe are intellectually dishonest is to ignore the entirety of modern human history. People who are born and raised in the various religions of the world, see the world through the magical worldview of their religion. Any counter evidence they come across during their mortal sojourn is filtered and adjusted to maintain that view as indoctrinated to. *If* they permit themselves to go against the deep indoctrination and even look at the evidence, let alone digest it, they may at some point overcome the indoctrinated beliefs and reject the magical worldview, but that often takes a lot of evidence and a lot of courage to even get to that point. I knew the stories and fully believed them because I am human. I eventually encountered the evidence and rejected that worldview also because I am human.
Certainly, but the subject being discussed is Mormonism. Hence, my comment relates to Mormonism.@@GM-ei6mo
@@GM-ei6mo You still believe all sorts of fictions. You can't help it.
@@aredesuyoI agree. The book I referenced, Sapiens by Harari, does a fantastic job of laying out all the fictions humans believe in. Nations, economic systems, religions, etc. Some are just more egregious than others, namely religions.
Religions hardly constitute a more egregious fiction than the state or certain economic systems, not by a long way. State power + bad economic ideas has been an utterly deadly combination historically. Harari is just as religious as the rest of us, except that his religion (scientism, positivism) is horribly corrosive and anti-human. It's the type of thinking that mass-murdering totalitarian regimes thrive on.
One of the unfortunate things about Mormonism is that it pumps itself up so much in our minds (we're the only true church, etc.) that when we finally find out how false it is, we're kind of set up to fall into nihilism. The human mind will pick a religion, no matter what. So it's important that we proactively find one that's actually good, lest we end up worse off. Matthew 12: 43-45 addresses this phenomenon. Orthodox Christianity is the replacement I've found, and it's taught me so much about how wrong I was.
Rebecca, you keep saying, "Dr. Lundwell". Please! It's LUNDWALL. LUND and then WALL. Lundwall. Please Rebecca, get it right. (from Dan, John's older brother (both wiser and better looking)). 🙂
Ha Ha! Nice to meet you! I, Rebecca was raised in Washington State. And we have a little accent where our "A's" sound like "E's or "U's" I will work on it! We just love your brother!
This is just a podcast and an echo chamber. There is no science here, just opinion. You haven't read and studied Grover's work at all. Please read it and do more just cast doubt. There is no science here folks. Sorry, you guys are amateurs.
John actually has read Grover’s work and we even sent Grover’s book to an Egyptologist who responded that it is complete malarkey she couldn’t even finish reading the book it made her so upset.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 I super the appreciate the honest dialogue here. I'm curious who this Egyptologist was the reviewed Grover's work. The work is a pretty short read and has a clear Hieratic lexicon dictionary associated with it.
hahaha this is bogus..... AND refuted long ago.