Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne | Part 1
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Our theory on why we believe Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne.
Theories and analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire using text evidence and quotes from George RR Martin.
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Its from an old radio show called the Shadow a crime mystery program..."Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men, THE SHADOW KNOWS"
Exactly, this is nothing more than GRRM using a pop culture reference to cover for a question, that he didn't have an answer for at the time.
@@GeekBen i YT searched "the shadow knows" and came across an audio snippit of that old radio broadcast. Once I heard it, it sounded like some old school reference that GRRM would love to throw out there.
I guess I'm 6 years late but dang stole my comment.
So this makes the video completely useless?
GRRM loves to make cryptic remarks and often references both fiction and history. He also employs word play in the naming of his characters. Lemore is terribly close to the French language word for love. Ned's greatest love? Ashara Dane=Septa Lemore.....
Remember, GRRM was answering the question, "Does Howland Reed know who Jon's mother is?" I believe "The shadow knows" is George's cryptic way of saying yes, Howland knows. It makes me think of the description of the dance at the Harrenhall tournament. The dance is told from the POV of "The Cranogman" aka Howland Reed. He watches and describes the action without taking part, like a shadow. Later, Ned talks about how clearly he can still see Arthur Dane, etc. While others, like Howland Reed are shadowy figures.
When Catelyn is talking about the shadows of Brandon and Jon's mother in her marriage, I think she was referring to emotional ghosts (shades) from their past.
When GRRM responded with "the Shadow knows." after being asked who Jon's mother is made me think of a Melisandre chapter in ADWD when she reveals rattleshirt to be mance rayder to jon. "The ruby on the wildling's wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and SHADOW around him writhed and faded." also a few paragraphs later, "With whispered words and prayer, a man's SHADOW can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak." Well If Mance Is Arthur Dayne he would almost definitely know who Jon's mother is regardless if it was Ashara or Lyanna. And Mance Rayder would be the "shadow" draped around Arthur Dayne, hiding his true identity.
That’s too tinfoil for me. I think Mance is just Mance.
Ron Burgundy is investigating the hell out of this theory...😆
I enjoy these videos. But I have to be a dick... "The Shadow knows," is from an old comic book and radio show. The beginning of the show would start: "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!" My grandfather used to say it, he listened to the radio program as a child. I recall him saying that to me when I was a young child in the asking questions all the time phase. The show was also still on the air when George RR Martin was a child, I would guess that he heard it, or at least heard of it. I suspect that "the Shadow knows," is a non-response more in the way of "I'm not telling," or possibly, "what do you think?" I think that the two shadows are more of an accidental coincidence from a flippant response given in the interview.
I agree with the rest of the hypothesis that you lay out. I think that your case for Jon Snow's parentage (in this and subsequent videos) makes the most sense, and I like that a whole lot more than he is a secret Targaryen and is going to marry Dany and ride dragons and save the day and they will have 2.5 kids and he'll take them to soccer practice, etc. that has been posed way too many times.
OMG! haha well that shows that we are truly gen x/millennials! no offense taken at all. i just literally inspect every thing the man says. :) thank you for telling me that. although i feel kinda sick now when I think about the time I spent going through the books to find every time the word shadow was used.
I came here to say this about the "the shadow knows". I had a shadow action figure i think. Maybe George used it as an homage and also a cryptic clue. It's certainly possible.
I think you're right...He does seem to choose his words very carefully when he answers a question, and his writing is full of statements with double and triple meanings
Well, it got you to a good place, so it probably wasn't pure tire spinning. I also wanted to point it out, as someone who sees the case presented and thinks it has merit, vs. say someone who is completely entrenched in RLJ pointing out "the Shadow," error and since the least important part is wrong, the entire idea is wrong. Keep up the good work, I do enjoy these examinations of these fun books!
Thank you...we will
I'd also vote for Quaithe, also known as 'Quaithe of the Shadow', who is a Shadow-Binder. She really seems to know more than anyone else including Varys or Littlefinger, and if this is who GRR meant, then he's tipping us off that Quaithe has future importance.
We thought about Quaithe, but her being "the shadow" doesn't make sense because then anyone who is "of the Shadow" would know...we have a really good theory on who Quaithe is...it's not quite ready for a video but we'll have it worked out soon
I dont think her being Lemore and Quiathe are necessarily mutually exclusive...@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand
"Who knows what evil lurks im the hearts of men? The shadow knows." What a hilarious reference, well done GRRM.
You get all the cred for going through 605 mentions of shadow... but yes!!! It's so true
but in the books the ONLY person Robert hated with such a fury that 14 years later still burned as bright was for Rhaegar. He drunk to drown his feelings of shame and self loathing. I always thought that in such a martial culture where strength and battle prowess were prized that it still counted for nothing because Rhaegar was the better man and Lyanna chose him. that combined with witnessing his parent's death probably created the void of feeling unloved which he spent rest of his life trying to fill.
Thats really true. I have a soft spot in my heart for Robert, and Stannis. They are tragic characters, but likeable in their own unique ways.
I am liking how much research, effort and detail you put into your theories. I wonder how long it'll be before the Last Harpy steals them and still gets half the details wrong.
He already has
I don't know if I'm the only person who thinks this but I seriously doubt that he's read the books
+The Order of the Green Hand I'm convinced he hasn't, no point mentioning it as he deletes all comments that question his lack of knowledge, original theories or ethics. Son of a Frey
If I said half as many things that were completely factually incorrect as he does I would do the same...I think he has a lot of money and paid 1000s of dollars for advertising when he first got started...there is no other theorist that has 1,000,000 views on their first video, especially when it wasn't something so controversial that it might actually go viral like that... our first 10 videos barely got watched, and some of them still have less than a third of the views are more recent ones do
+The Order of the Green Hand i thought exactly the same thing
Oh my god! I thought also that septa Lemore is something else that she want everybody to believe but that she is Ashara...never crossed my mind!! I will be watching the rest of the videos. You are just incredibly talented people!!
Thank you very much
I have watched all your videos a couple times now and they are truly great theories. I thank you for your time and effort.
Damn girl! You are hard core for counting shadows!!I'm loving your vids! Thanks to The Order of the Green Hand for all your hard work!
thank you so much!!! ;)
I've always assumed that Septa/Lady Lemore was Ashara Dayne
Thank you for this channel. It's very interesting. I love the way it's very meticulous.
thank you for watching our channel
Another subtle clue that Ashara is Jon's mother is when Stannis said that his mother must have been a fishermans wife when they were negotiating. If Ashara is indeed the fishermans daughter Ned took to White harbor.
I can't remember that but I'm looking it up right now...I really wish we caught that...it would have been a great addition to our Jon Snow vids
It’s crazy that the fisherman’s daughter was mentioned twice. I never thought of her being Ashara Dayne though. I just thought she was a woman that ned paid off to lie for him . Interesting. Because why bring her up twice from two different ppl if there isn’t more to the story? I read the books before the Jon parentage question was a popular theory. I thought he was the fisherman’s daughter til I start reading other ppls theories. I knew Lyanna died during child birth but I didn’t find it sus that ned never spoke about the baby and the promise til theory’s started poppin up lol I didn’t realize GRRM was making it a mystery.
You guys should have used Deadpool's dialogue of "Your crazy matches my crazy." instead of Ron Burgundy quotes, lol
I think that's just a reference to the radio show: "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!"
when I first watched your channel I was thinking it didn't make any sense because of the show. Thinking more about the books I think you are right! it makes so much sense..
+billy jenkins thank you !!! That's how we feel too.... we try to keep them separate in our minds because they are quite different now... although with HBO wiping out all of the Martells and Tyrells, i feel like they could be opening up the story to make room for the young griff/aegon plot. Especially if you look at the casting calls for season 7! a girl can hope anyway. Haha
It would be amazing if we saw that. Not sure though since hbo put out that graphic showing that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna. I mean they didn't have to do that at all and they could have left it open and a mystery. That to me kind of rules out completely young griff/aegon.
True, but HBO does have a reputation for misleading/ flat out lying to it's GOT fans. I seem to recall Dave and Dan doing a bunch of interviews last year reiterating how dead Jon was. I think I even saw one with the CEO of HBO doing the same
Haha good point. Would be great if it happened.
You guys rock ! Watched a little over half your video's so far , I'm working my way your playlist, there easily the best researched and coherent I've seen , I'm on board with your young griff/aegon/ neds son theory , i had one hang up which you kindly answered thank you, keep up the good work , were going to need it with the depths of memdom the show has now sunk to in season 7
thank you. Our review of the finale is coming in a few hours and we might do a live stream later tonight to try to get the idiot festival over with. I have noticed that them naming Jon Aegon seems to have given some people pause and we're not getting nearly as many morons coming on here to yell at us for having to audacity to disagree with the bad fairytale an r+l=j storyline gives us, as clearly demonstrated by how terrible the show is
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand - "hi, I'm Rhaegar, this is my son Aegon, and this is my other son Aegon"
Dumb and Dumber strike again!
One would think that even two morons would be able to remember that fathers don't give their two sons the same first name.
the shadow knows... damn
I dont know if this is in here, but i was looking into the meaning of the name lemore... And it auto corrected to "lemur" which means "ghosts, specters, shades of the dead"
love your videos. everytime i watch one i have to pick n flip though random pages just to see if i stumble through something. Feel like a drug addict who has ASOIF withdraws within 4 days of not reading something ive already read 11teen times!!!
great work love your stuff
+LIam “IAMRED” Tolstoy Thank you
Just watched this and the 3 Prince that was promised videos really enjoyed them there aren't many videos about aegon probably because he's not on the TV show.I think R+L=J could end up being different on GOT compared to ASOIAF even though GRRM says the endings will be the same
Thank you for watching and we're glad you enjoyed them. Aegon really is an interesting character that we keep hoping will be introduced in the show. We decided to make these videos because there are a lot of things about the books that either no one noticed, or they don't fit the narrative that everyone online is selling so they don't talk about them; Aegon being one of them. Most people right him off as a pretender or a Blackfire, but the way GRRM framed his character to be such a nice kid and a natural at pretty much everything, it just seems to me that he is not the "bad guy" who is here to try and steal the throne from Dany. And the way his story almost perfectly follows Egg's from the Dunk and Egg stories makes me think that GRRM wants people to notice it and stop talking trash about his Prince that was Promised. Once again, thank you for watching and the kind words...there is plenty more to come
Michael Watson no chance of R+L=j being different seeing as how that was the question GRRM asked DD before they got the gig. it's to important for there to be a difference in the book than the show
The Order of the Green Hand GRRM uses Barriston and Jorah frequently to emphasize that Rhaegar was "good" if not excellent at everything. Given his literary style, and how he uses similar descriptors for related characters, hard to refute that there is a relationship there! Great vid, keep up the amazing work!!!
I'm not convinced that Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne, but I love hearing all these theories. Ashara is probably still alive somewhere, but I'm more convinced that she went missing so she could be with Howland Reed. In Deep Geek went through all this on a video and I found it very convincing.. But I'm dying to find out what the real story is. I'm just now finding your channel though, so I'm thrilled to hear the competing theories!
I do think Dorn will ultimately back "fAegon" unless Darkstar does, for obvious reasons. The Martell's are a curious mix of waiting too long to act, and acting too impulsively, depending on the character. Doran seems to be the only reason that Dorn wasn't already attacked and sacked by one of the other kings, but what they lack in numbers, they make up for in skill, and cunning.. Only the skilful, cunning ones are also impulsive, and the only other characters we see who was willing to both be patient and to act on Dorans word ended up dead soon after.
GRRM has given us a rare treasure in these books where we're constantly being surprised and often never truly able to be sure that the mysteries he's created are truly solved. Long years from now, I have a feeling we'll still be debating much of these things, and I love that. Someday I hope to share my theories with my kids and grandkids. If nothing else, there's so much great food for thought written in those pages.
Hopefully he'll grace us with the ending before he dies, but I fully expect this series to go the way of Tolkien, and books will be released after he's passed away. I suspect he's got a full team of writers who he's trained and shared his best secrets with, so that if he does, his works will continue to be released to new generations like Robert Jordan and the Wheel of Time series that Brandon Sanderson ended up completing, and I think he did it justice.
Still, I'd at least like to be alive myself long enough to get the ending of ASOIAF. No other book series has captured my mind and imagination so much as this one has, and that's saying a lot. I'm a huge fantasy buff. After finishing the books and the HBO series, I went through a mini depression where nothing I read hit the spot anymore. ASOIAF is so intense, shocking, mysterious, imaginative and just plane nuts, that all the other books I picked up felt boring for about a year. 😂
I've read each book over a dozen times in the past 2 years. I just can't put them down. Each time Ashara is mentioned, her haunting purple eyes are as well. It seems to be her most obvious feature. If Septa Lemore is Ashara, why does nobody mention her eyes? Especially Tyrion, who seems very intrigued by her. Tyrion does notice that Young Griff aka Aegon has purple eyes but why would he not notice the Septa having purple eyes? Also, Griff aka John Connington, was Hand of the King before his exile, and would of known Ashara well, since she had been handmaiden to Elia Martell, and as you mentioned, danced with him as well. I believe Ashara is alive but I can't buy into this theory only bc of this evidence I have provided. I once thought this too, but after rereading, it started to seem like Septa Lemore may be someone else. Certainly a highborn Westorosi Lady but not Ashara.
We find it more interesting that her eye color is pretty much the only detail George left out of her physical description. And of course Jon Connington knows who she is. That’s likely why he calls her “Lady” Lemore because he knows she’s high born. Ashara delivering the child to Jon Connington seems like it would be a very good way to ensure that he believes the child is Rhaegar’s and doesn’t turn them down because he’s not sure he’s the real thing. He would be very unlikely to take Varys and Illyrio at their word. But if Ashara Dayne delivered the child to him, it alleviates any doubts he may have had about what they were telling him
We're practically beat over the head chapter after chapter about how Tyrion is constantly staring at her naked beasts. He probably doesn't care too much about looking closely at her eyes, he just sees a naked septa. I think Martin did this intentionally. Also, he doesn't notice FAegon's purple eyes until closer inspection, only after his identity is revealed.
great channel guys!
thank you so much!
I thought these people were nuts at first but then things started adding up.
haha...we get that a lot
Will you guys do a video about Quiath? There's a theory that she could be Ashara since there's some star imagery used to describe her and the word shadow is right in her name.
we're definitely going to do a Quaithe video at some point
in the passage it says the shadow of the woman ... not the the woman outright, so wouldn't it be more likely that the shadow is the person always at Ashara Dayne's side? ...Wylla the wet nurse.
Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon's place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son. I see this statement as two shadows: the shadow of Brandon and the shadow of Ashara as being a metaphor for these two things these kind of unspoken elephants in the room that were always there, even after Cat and Ned had grown fond of each other, and even fell in love.
There's this passage too: She found herself thinking of Jon's mother, that shadowy secret love her husband would never speak of. Does she grieve for Ned as I do? Or did she hate him for leaving her bed for mine? Does she pray for her son as I have prayed for mine?They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.--- seems like in this instance its more of this person who continues to be shrouded in mystery for Cat, "the shadowy secret love her husband would never speak of" She also brings up Ashara in the next paragraph.
We have a couple thoughts about Wylla too! I don't want to post them here because it might spoil our video, but if you have any PM us or send us an email at: orderofthegreenhand@yahoo.com.
How simply hilarious are the expressions that Will Farrell is capable of making??. We laughed our as*es off when we were watching it. Stay Classy.
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Re-watching all the vudeos, yet again, and it's amazing how I just can't seem to piece the entire ouzzle together. I mean, Young Griff makes sense, but the Golden Company fighting for a Targaryen is what holds me back. That's the fly in the pudding. But everything else falls into place. But then there's the "Mummer's Dragon" as well.
Aggghhh. GRRM has created the greatest book of riddles ever. This will never be topped.
These guys in the Golden Company are 100 years removed from the decisions of their ancestors...why would any of these sellswords care who brings them home and helps them get back what their fore-bearers lost...these guys want their castles and keeps back and want to stop living out of a tent wearing the entirety of their wealth on their persons...especially the guys in leadership, like Peake...what's more important in Aegon/Young Griff's storyline are the people that are with him and have been with him for most if not all of his life, like Jon Connington, Lemore/Ashara and Walys Flowers/ Haldon Halfmaester
I love your work. Most of it rings true and has a lot more complexity the usual fan theory. My biggest problem with the Ashara as Jon's mother theory is that it seems like there is a total of about 1.5 pages devoted to Ashara in the entire series. I would not have remembered her as a character if I hadn't read about her importance in advance. The two most important passages that I can recall may not even name her (Meera's & Edricc Dayne's ).
True...Ashara is only specifically mentioned 11 times in the books...ALL 11 times reference her and Ned's relationship however. I don't know the numbers for Lyanna off the top of my head, but I doubt she was mentioned more...and, if you include the Tyrion chapters on the Shy Maid with Lemore, Ashara gets a lot more face time than Lyanna, assuming we are correct in our assessment that Lemore is really Ashara
The biggest problem N+A=J is that there is absolutely no reason to keep his parentage secret if Jon was Ashara's son. It protects nobody and it benefits nobody. In fact not confirming it at very least to his own wife, actually creates needless and ongoing problems for Ned, Jon and Cat. Confirming that it was Ashara actually eliminates problems for them all.
Even B+A=J would be equally plausible...and yet still not worth keeping secret [at least from his wife and king].
Agree. Always.
I’d really enjoy if Lemore left Aegon to deliver Dawn to Jon at the wall and reveals she is his mother.
The problem with that theory is that there would have been no reason to hide his mother's identity from him. Particularly since everyone knew the rumors...and NOT knowing it actually made both Jon and Ned's life more complicated.
Cat assumed it was Ashara...mainly from the rumors. And Ned would never confirm it and set it to rest even just with his wife...which is of course a bit senseless, considering she would have been aware of Ned and Ashara having a relationship of some sort when Cat was still betrothed to Ned's brother.
Okay but going through all of the game of thrones books and finding every instance of the word shadow must have been so much effort. Massive respect. I just found this channel recently and I've been binge watching.
I loved your Queen Daenerys book breakdown series. I guess U were as pissed off at the way they turned s hero of the Great war 2 a Disney villain at the drop of a hat! #ISTANDWITHDAENERYS
So this video truly had me thinking. I gotta ask you both, so is this your theory based on ASOIAF? Or a GOT? And or has your opinion changed now after last night's episode??
our theories are based exclusively on the books, and no, our opinion has not changed
The shadow! The shadow... THE SHADOW
Didnt quath say you must pass under the shadow? It has to be under the shadow keep...
Subbed from Scotland
Thanks so much. We're glad you liked it....we have a lot more to come...
As Robert says to Cersei in the show. "7 kingdoms couldn't fill the hole she left" that wound has never healed.
You could very well be on to something with Robert
I haven't read a single book of the story, the question in my mind after this and part 2 is not 'are you effin serious?' but 'did that women with the heart of stone know the shadow was not just a girl that consoled Ned but was his wife and true love?'
I came to the same conclusion while reading the books. However, the tv show is going in a totally different direction, obviously.
we don't see the show as meaning anything with regards to the books...GRRM called it licensed fan fiction and Benioff said its so different from the books readers will be shocked...I personally think it is amazing that most people seem to think George would put a decade and a half into building this world and story for us and let two Hollywood writers reveal all his secrets before he does...that just seems too ridiculous to believe for me
I'm sorry to be a bit on the nose, but couldn't you interpret the shadow that lies between Ned and Cat to be Jon, him being about the only thing that puts a strain on their relationship? Then the passage goes on to say that Jon the shadow is "of" the dead brother and "of" the other woman. Could indicate B+A=J. Jon being a Ned clone makes sense insofar as Arya is a Lyana clone... Have you got a video which definitely disproves B+A? There are so many, please help :D
Have you considered Ashara having children by both Brandon and Ned?
Wylla is her shadow
Can you make some videos on the truth behind Dany's birth and her dreams of the red door?
We think Dany is who she says she is and the red door is in the sealords palace's greenhouse. Arya never sees it and he has a huge collection of tropical animals that he has to keep alive somehow. We just released Littlefinger part 2 so sorry about the very brief response but I have given very detailed answers about this previously if you are interested enough to look for them. When we release comments come in too fast for long responses
I've only seen the show and have yet to read the books. With that in mind, I have a question. On the show we see Bran witnessing Arthur Dayne's death. But you guys have theorized that he is alive. Am I missing something or is the Tower of Joy scene unique to the show? Anyway keep up the great work. I'm hooked :)
the only logical explanation for what that vision was is it is what the weirwood network thinks happened there...from what is explained about how the weirwoods work, the greenseer can see through its eyes or can access memories of those who were given to one in death, but no one that was there was given to a tree...also, that scene didn't even have the all the right people there...both sides were missing a man, and they framed it so strangely...the grand finale is the Starks are an extinct house and a Targaryen is King of the North?
George also could have been fucking with people - The Shadow was a radio program (and eventually bad but mildly entertaining movie) about a crime fighter named “The Shadow” who had the power to cloud men’s minds....his haunting tagline was (gasp) “The Shadow knows....” food for thought as GRRM certainly knew about this character...
Howland Reed was one of the Shadows in Ned's fever dream.
If Lemore is Ashara, she really gave up her child to raise someone else's? Would she be happy with her child being Gaslit into joining the Watch? It's the part I have the hardest part with. If Ashara did do it by choice and she is Lemore, I hope Jon never learns about it. It would crush him. It would also crush him if Ned stole him from his mother. Either way, Ned/Ashara don't come out of this looking very good. I'm actually struggling to see a valid argument here. A lot.
The way it works for me would be some variation of Arthur+Lyanna=Jon and Rhaegar+Ashara=Faegon. That would make sense for Ashara to be on the Shy Maid presenting her son as a Targaryen, even if her son could never know. It would also help with Jon Con believing the lie. It would not explain Illyrio's obvious devotion to fAegon, or the Golden Company's involvement.
Edit: It's pretty frustrating, I'm finding, that the answer is far less clear than George has led us to believe. There isn't a single theory, currently, that doesn't fall apart when put under close enough scrutiny. RLJ and NAJ both do. We need to know more about Illyrio/Varys to really pass judgement, but we do know that Varys worked against Rhaegar and actively destabilized Aerys. Varys definitely wasn't working for Robert. Varys/Illyrio also wanted war between Stark and Lannister, though admittedly they wanted it to wait another year so fAegon would be closer to being ready. Viserys and Daenerys were sacrificed without any knowledge of their nephew, which, while technically smart from a keeping them separate standpoint, makes no sense once you start actively working to take the throne. Dany only became a consideration once she had dragons. I find it funny that Jon Connington hasn't worked this out, or Haldon, or Tyrion since he's supposedly so smart.
ok so, Im watching this other vid about how they think there was a dragon under Winterfell and Summer saw it escape or whatever....going along with your theory of Lyanna never leaving Winterfell, how do you feel about the possibility of Rhaegar having left an egg for his future child? how do you feel about a dragon under winterfell no matter the circumstances?
Thank you for watching...Well it is rumored that Vermax left a clutch of eggs at Winterfell so anything's possible. We have a theory on what's under Winterfell but it's tied into a topic we're about to release a video on tomorrow...
And Daynerys actually thought about marrying Aegon 6(son of R+E) and she is gonna marry Aegon 7(son of R+L) and Aegon 7 will sit on iron throne and the faith is also called faith of the 7 in kings landing and both have no. 7 in it and everyone knows that Targaryens are closest to god.
Now that we know we probably aren't getting TWOW I have decided to make it my head canon that Jon is Ned and Ashara's true born son.
smart man!
Best got videos ever :)
thank you
Iron Throne News📰I missed that.
What's the weather🌍☀⛅☁💧⚡❄
i love making stuff like that !!!
id also like to call your attention to a conversation between Benjen and Jon where theres some sort of akward exchange about him wishing he was Benjens son or something? it came to mind while yall were talking about Benjen going strait to the wall after the war.
If I remember correctly I think it was Benjen showed regret about not being Jon's father. Which could suggest that he had a thing for Ashahra? He (Benjen) thought " _more"s the pity_ " when Jon told him "I'm not your son."
Hailey Hart because Benjen can not have a son because of his wows and if he wasn't part of the nights watch he could have a son like Jon who will grow up like the trueborn he is unlike the bastard life he has to live.
Two things I would like to point out and I don't know if you already talked about it, but still.
1) I think it's a good hypothesis (the babyswitch - Jon for Aegon, to save him etc). I think it fits nicely in the general story. But, I question the motivation of Lemore the theory "Ashara Dayne is Septa Lemore" should be true.
Why would she (want to) educate the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and for him to be trained to be king, while the man she supposedly loves, the father of her child, is best friends with the current king. There is no indication they (team fAegon) would have any inclination Robert's children to be Jaime Lannister's bastards. So to train Aegon to be king, would be for Lemore (Ashara) to betray the man she loves (Ned) in some way. To nurse him, to take care of him, to look after him. That I can understand. To teach him, that too. But to train him to be king is a completely different matter. And they couldn't have started the "training" after Robert's death, because the boy would have been 14 or so. I would like to hear your thoughts on this, because I can't figure out her motivation.
2) In one of your videos you put forth the hypothesis of Lyanna staying in Winterfell with Rhaeger - possibly the crypts - as it fits so nicely with the story of Bael the Bard. I have often wondered that myself, that would be really fitting. But, I remember Catelyn somewhere in the books stating she settled in Winterfell with Robb and Luwin before Ned was even there, and that he came home from the war with a wetnurse and a babe (Jon).
It could be possible Ned was already at Winterfell long before Catelyn arrived, then tracked back for the Aegon-Jon switch, and then come home to Winterfell. But that seems a rather lengthy process, which could take well over half a year. And didn't he also reconcile with Robert over Lyanna's death, after he lifted the siege of Storm's End. It would seem to me - as it is told in the books - not to be something that would've happened, say, two years later.
In the sense of the Timeline it would be: 1) Robert and Ned fighting; 2) Ned left to lift siege; 3) something that happened at Tower of Joy; 4) Ned found out about Lyanna somehow (in Winterfell); 5) Go to WF, take the baby; 6) Go to Starfall to switch the babies; 7) Go back to WF with Jon; and then 8) Go to Robert to reconcile. This last point could also be point 6, though then he would be with the baby. That all seems to mess up the timeline quite a bit.
Let me know what you think :)
Dennis Bakker I believe the part you’re speaking of it says that Ned was already set up with Jon in Winterfell when she & Robb came from Riverrun. It was part of the reason she felt cold towards him. He was there before her and her son
The only thing that makes me doubt of your theory, is what reason did Ashara had to accept this deal? Get exhiled, abandon her son and raise the son whose parents where nothing to her.
Robert had a bastard whit a lords daughter, and that one is fine and well, even if Ned abandoned her for Catelyn, she could have kept her baby and raise him in her castle.
I dont see her renouncingher life for Lyana and Raeghar son, neither on Ned request if he just abandon her.
She certainly wouldn't do it for the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna...she was one of his wife's ladies...it only makes sense for her head off to raise the real Aegon in exile [duty/loyalty]...not R+Ls
You are reading way too much into this comment. "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The shadow knows" he was referring to the 1930's stories about The Shadow that were featured in pulp novels back then. It was nothing more than a joke. Also a completely unrelated topic if the children of the forest were the true enemy and in league with the white walkers why did they give the Nights Watch obsidian arrow heads and spear heads to fight them with every year for a very long time?
I know ive seen the picture before but cant think who it is and its bothering me lol who is the picture of "Ashara" of really or where is she from, what movie or series is it? I wanna say its from one of the King Arthur or Merlin series but not sure, can you tell me so it stops bugging me every time I see it lol
This channel is a great find >:) subscribed! There is something about her voice that I don't like, tho... Like she sounds bored or something, idk o.O
Thank you...she had to talk like that because the computer's mic squeaked every time she finished a word with an S...we just finally got a good mic, which should make a huge difference...our next video is the first we're putting out with the new mic
well damn bestialice, i know i know. its more like restrained than anything else. don't worry with our new mic you can hear me loud and clear and, just for you I'll put some extra pep in my step. :)
meant to ask if you thought Rhaegar is alive, and if one of his friends was glamoured by his rubies on the black armour when he fought Robert? or is he dead?
He's dead according to GRRM...he said his body was cremated...he doesn't answer questions he doesn't want to answer or gives really cryptic answers when someone touches on something he wants there to be speculation on so we take that as definitive...plus Ned and Robert both saw his dead body
The Order of the Green Hand why would they let his body be cremated? Robert had no love for him and would probably do his best to disgrace his families traditions. I feel as though the ruby ford is brought up subtly too often for it not to be a hint of some sort. Though I'm probably grasping at straws, just think it would be too cool to see Rhaegar come out of disguise as someone we already know, maybe Jaqhen? Would explain the odd silver streak in his hair and his interest in Arya, who is said to be a spitting image of Lyanna
Robert hated the man but was not the type to disgrace a fallen foe...even though he clearly hated the man with every inch of his body...several combatants of his end up being his friends throughout the war...most famously the Lords he defeated at Summerhall where he won 3 battles in a single day and famously feasted and drank (of course) with the lords he fought that very night...Barristan Selmy killed a dozen men at the Trident (including some friends of Ned and Robert) and was wounded badly, and even though Robert was wounded by Rhaegar in their fight, Robert insisted that his maester treat Barristan Selmy before he would accept treatment himself, which is why he ended up having to send Ned to King's Landing and stay behind to recover...a guy who would do all those things wouldn't disgrace a dead body...nor would Jon Arryn and Ned condone it either...he killed the man in combat...he would allow him his funeral rights
When you put it that way it makes sense to me now. Thanks for the reply I found your channel yesterday and have already seen all your videos. I love watching them because you show very little support to a lot of widely accepted theories and you use the books as evidence, rather than the shows. Most people don't realize that the show runners don't have as much information as it would seem on the story and are basing a lot of their content on conjecture. Your channel gives me hope that the books will be as shocking as I had hoped and the will not conform to what the show lays out. Keep up the good work I look forward to future videos!
thank you so much....we really appreciate it.
To understand what George meant with this "shadow" answer, and to understand Quaithe of the Shadow, and Asshai-by-the-Shadow, you need to go into Jungian territory, and study his shadow theory. This wiki article is not a bad start: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology) but I'm afraid you'd better read his books. George is obviously very much into Jung, so it will probably not be a waste of time.
a few other people have told us a generation gap issue caused us to miss the joke in it where it used to be the catchphrase for a popular show
yeah, I've seen that. It may be partially true, but the use of the jugian shadow by George is so obvious, especially with Dany and Quaithe, that my interpretation is most likely true.
The shadow is the part of our subconscious that we don't know about, or that we refuse to acknowledge. Dany's arc is almost entirely about her trying to know this dark aspect of herself, this inner self, which is symbolized by the dragons ("remember who you are, Daenerys. The dragons know. Do you?"). This is evidenced by the constant use of expressions like "the shadow of the dragon's wings". This is why she lost herself when imprisoning the dragons, and when Drogon left her. This why Quaithe tells her that she will find truth in Asshai-by-the-Shadow, etc. etc.
In Jungian psychology, knowing or meeting your shadow (i.e. bringing it to the conscious level) is an essential part of the individuation process. You can either meet your shadow after a treatment (psychoanalysis, mostly), or after a shock. Well, Dany gave birth to her dragons right after losing her husband and her unborn son...
I could go on like this for pages.
The wiki article isn't that great. It doesn't even mention the overwhelming use of this concept in popular culture (Darth Vader.... and asoiaf of course :-p). Just read Jung, you just cannot fully understand asoaif without knowing these concepts - in my opinion anyway.
Cheers.
Big problem, the age/description doesn't match.
a dark haired, extraordinarily attractive woman that tyrion thinks might be 40 doesn't fit the description of what you'd imagine Ashara would be at this point in the story?
subbed!
Thank you
You are very welcomed
subbed back! did you do a video with quinn awhile back??? i wanted to find you after that but couldn't remember your name. :)
Yes we did the forsaken sample chapter. Both of us also did cover re rereads. Mine is okay ;)
Is that where you read the chapter?? Did he have a seashell horn by any chance??
She is Rhaegar.
Interesting theory but I have to disagree as well, besides "The Shadow Knows" obviously being a reference to the radio/comic character. Lemore is too old (mid 40's) to be Ashara, you could counter that GRRM doesn't give Ashara's exact year of birth however, Lemore lacks Ashara's violet eyes, something I think Tyrion would of noticed during his time with her and Tyrion is not shy about how he lusts for Lemore, and looking at all of her features.
would you be opposed to Varys having secret Targaryen lineage?
It's definitely possible. Maekar's son Aerion spent time in Lys and Varys could be his descendant, or the more popular theory being Varys is a Blackfyre and brother of Serra, who was Illyrio's wife, whom alot of fans beleive is descended from Calla Blackfyre and Aegor Rivers like Young Griff could be. Either way, he would have king's blood and it would explain his castration.
Looking back on the text, I realized I might of made an error in my conclusion's of Ashara Dayne not being Lemore. GRRM intended to have a five year gap after ASOS's but later scrapped that plan. Assuming Lemore really is Ashara Dayne, he might of forgotten to change the age range that Tyrion guesses Lemore is from early to mid 40's back to her mid to late 30's. I don't think Ashara's exact age at the time of her "death" was given but, for the purposes of this theory, lets say Ashara was the same age as Ned (35) at the start of the series; take into account how much time passed from A Game of Thrones to the end of A Storm of Swords (roughly a year and a half) then add on five years for the time jump and it would place Ashara, if she were still alive, in the same age range or close to Lemore. Again, Lemore's lack of having violet eyes kind of wrecks this theory, but assuming Septa Lemore really is Ashara Dayne then the math works as it would if Lanna is really the daughter of Gerion Lannister and author error is to blame for it not being so.
Why would Rhaegar leave Lyanna without a Maester? He has 3 of the best Knights in the realm to protect her.. but know Maester? Couldn't that be the Maester that is with them Young Griff like you say from Winterfell? Wouldn't Lyanna be described more handsome then beautiful? Could Lyanna be the Septa & she promised Ned to say she was dead so she could protect her son? Of course she must keep it a secret that she is young Griffs mother for the purpose of succession. Also the bed of blood and fooling Ned she was dying idk. Also Robert never saw the one thing he wanted & loved more then anything put to rest in Winterfell? You're videos have convinced me as of the books. That N + A = J.. So could any of what I said possibly be true? Also the Tower of Joy been Ashara giving birth with Lyanna in Winterfell. It's been awhile since I've read the books.
I can't say that what you proposed is impossible, but it seems unlikely because Ned recalls holding Lyanna's hand as she died and how "they" found him still holding it a while later
I know. It's far-fetched but we know people can come back alive but at that time was magic that strong? Probably not. Thanks for the reply though! Love your stuff. Makes you think!
Also you guys have talked a lot about the reeds in the story of The Laughing tree. In A Storm of Swords what do you think of Bran being called the winged wolf by Jojen? & do the Reeds trace back to the Green Hand?
could quaithe be ashara dayne ?
i mean, they both have violet eyes
the only thing we know about Quaithe's eyes is they're wet and shiny, but there was no mention of a color
She is totally Septa Lemore. It's one of the "theories" I think most likely if not obvious...
Their physical descriptions Dont match, its not ashara dayne
Hey! I was looking up the meaning of the name Griffin, considering GRRM cannot name or write a character without knowing who they are. The name Griffin mean “dragon lord” in Welch!
What if... the order of the green hand is right? This blows the lid off everything.
But they have already said his parents are Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark
No, HBO showed us that the weirwood network thinks that, then released the most convoluted heritage map I've ever seen, and if HBO wasn't in the habit of misleading it's GOT fans in the offseason I might take it seriously but last year they had everyone from D&D to the CEO of HBO out doing interviews telling everyone just how dead Jon was and implying he was never coming back I might believe it...plus...the show most likely doesn't even have the legal right to spoil the books...if the show reveals all you need to know, why would anyone bother buying the books when they come out
The Order of the Green Hand By this point it's pretty obvious that R+L=J. In the show it was confirmed in the season 6 finale with lyanna being his mother and the only guy she slept with at the time being rhaegar. All that is still a mystery is wether or not Lyanna was raped or was married in secret
The Order of the Green Hand I think HBO just morphed Jon and Gryff into the same character in the show. After all they can't suddenly just whip out say that Jon's mother is Ashara, all the casual show watchers would be absolutely confused.
that is show version in the books many people believe it is different people (who is parents of Jon Snow)
i had a similar thought years ago when reading the first two books but had so little evidence and figuring the double baby swap just too convoluted. Plus they say she had a stillborn daughter assuming there must be proof of this I figured I was chasin shadows...
but i thought it was Brandon+Ashara's baby exchanged with Rhaegar+ Lyanna to hide the Targaryon features. Ned keep his promise to his sister without dishonoring either Brandon, Lyanna, or Ashara all while raising one of his blood and hiding the other away
Hi ! Thanks for the comment, and so sorry for the delay in getting back to you. We were working on the latest video which we just released. I think you are right about the double baby swap being convoluted, but that seems to be what GRRM is all about. I definitely don't think it was Brandon's baby with Ashara. Brandon flipped out at the Tourney at Harrenhal when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty, which leads me to believe he's not the type of guy that would go out of his way to hook his little brother up just to snatch her away. He also had a lot going on with the whole betrothal to Catelyn and his relationship with Barbey Dustin, whose families were likely in attendance at Harrenhal. Barristan's recollection that Ashara was dishonored at the tourney seems unlikely given the fact that her brother, the Sword of the Morning, was in attendance, and would likely be able to kick some a** if need be. Again thanks so much for your thoughts and let us know if you have any other ideas. We really enjoy talking ASOIAF with other people besides each other. :)
The Order of the Greenhand would wylla not be considered as Ashara Dayne's shadow?
Why wouldn't Edd mention Jon's mother if it wasn't to protect Jon or keep a promise that he made to a person very close to him? And besides, He never calls jon "son"... These people are crazy! I tell ya, they live in their own world. Just don't waste your time listening to these loonies.
Hello. First of all, You Know Nothing ByronZeroful. Have you even read the books? I am assuming no since you are having difficulty spelling Ned's name (it's either Eddard or Ned). Second of all, how is it that having an idea that goes against the gospel of R+L=J makes us "loonies?" Now if you had approached this by being respectful and not just insulting us this might have been a very different response but no one is coming on our channel and insulting us without getting lit up. I live in reality and dogmatic support of a theory that doesn't even make sense is the exact reason we decided to make these videos to begin with. And why people all over the world are hoping for an incestual ending where Jon marries his aunt is beyond my ability to reason out. Also, we looked you up online and it seems to me that your MO is to continuously hate on other people without ever putting forth a reasonable idea of your own.
I am assuming your first question is why Eddard would not tell Jon who is mother is if it were Ashara Dayne. Here is your answer: When Varys visits Ned in the black cells and urges him to take the black and live out his days at the wall with his baseborn son, Ned then thinks of Jon. "The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him …" Now, there are so many reasons Ned would feel shame and sorrow if Ashara was Jon's mother. For starters, he asked a mother to give up her son in order to protect the life of another. Ashara wanted Jon, she loved him, but had to do what needed to be done (watch the Mystery of Jon Snow revealed playlist and it will make more sense). Jon has been haunted his entire life by the notion that his mother didn't want him, and Ned knows that she did, but he can't tell him the truth (who she is, where she is, why she is with Lyanna's son and not with him), nor is he going to tell him that she is dead, because she's not. If Lyanna was really Jon's mother, then why wouldn't he ever have just put him out of his misery and said "your mother died Jon, she loved you but she died." This would stop him from wondering and feeling like crap because he always wonders why his mother didn't want him. BUT HE DOES NOT DO THAT. I think the predicament I just explained is cause for a feeling of sorrow and shame too deep for words. This also explains why he could not tell Jon about his mother.
I cannot find any instance where Ned thinks of Lyanna and Jon at the same time, and furthermore can"t I find any time that Ned thinks of Lyanna and feels guilt, sorrow, shame, etc... In fact he thinks of her almost in a rigid way, simply recalling things she said or did. He thinks of her after promising Robert to take care of his children right before he dies (again not in a sorrowful manner, simply recalling the similar promise he made her how he is a man who keeps his vows no matter the cost).
Ned keeping Rhaegar and Lyanna's son is not cause for a feeling of sorrow or shame too deep for words. If that is how it played out, Ned would feel a sense of pride in the fact that he kept his word to his sister. Please don't say that his honor being besmirched is the cause of his unrest, because that's weak. Eddard Stark is a man of the north, he's stronger than that. And by the way, Anthony Martial is the man and he very well might win a Ballon D'or or two before he's done
hi ! i just re read the chapters where Ned and Jaime have their skirmish in the streets and also the following chapter which starts with Ned's fever dream of the Tower of Joy and could not find that reference. Let me know if you do as you're going through the books (or any other interesting details). Thanks for watching! :)
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand - I very much agree with most of your points here. But they are only really spot on if Ashara is Jon's mother...and there really is zero reason to keep that parentage from him...and even more importantly from his wife. There is no real harm to informing either of them that Lady Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother - IF IT WERE TRUE. Ned's honor is such that he won't lie...he keeps his word...honors his promises and would SAY NOTHING rather than dishonor himself and his name with a lie. He would neither confirm nor deny the rumors about Ashara being the mother when Cat brought it up after it was spreading throughout his household. HE SHUT THAT DOWN...but never would lie by confirming or denying it.
It would have been easy to confirm it to his wife...just as easy to deny it...if it would not have required a lie.
DO NOT ASK ME ABOUT JON's MOTHER AGAIN!
I have not seen a bunch of your videos...I do always enjoy the ones I've seen.
From what I'm seeing, I think your position is that Jon is Ashara and Ned's son? Ashara has faked her death/suicide so as to go off and raise Rhaegar & Lyanna's son?? As "Young Griff" under the assumed identity of Septa Lemore?? With the additional assistance of Jon Connington???
I think there are problems with that....but I just wanted to ask if that is your theory/position before going deeper.
Just as something of a side point...Jon becoming Night's Watch actually solves a problem. He is sworn to never take a wife and father children. If he is true to his word...and the secret of his being Rhaegar's son were ever discovered, he poses no dynastic threat...he is sworn to The Wall. He would have to be an oath breaker to endanger the dynasty to Ned's liege lord/King. Ned has also fulfilled his promise to Lyanna...
If Robert had discovered Jon, Ned could make that case to his friend/king and the lords of Westeros.
for the ones who speak spanish, i am making translations, about Grayare, preston jacobs and orther of the green hand (ideas of ice and fire too), i have started with preston and his series Genetics of Dragons and war, so if you are interested, here is the link:
para los que hablan español, estoy haciendo video traducciones de los teoristas Grayare, Preston Jacobs, The order of the green hand y Ideas of ice and fire. He empezado con Preston y su serie de videos sobr ela genética targaryen, aquí está el link
ruclips.net/video/Wlj1Ux00xS0/видео.html
Ashara really could have killed herself because at the end of the Robert's Rebellion Ned chose to go back to Catelyn Tully rather than Ashara. Septa Lemore could be the wet nurse Wylla.
I might believe that she was dead, if George hadn't said her body was never found, then went on to include that fact on more than one character profile in the app, and in author's annotations in the new iBook versions... it really seems like he really want's people to know that she is still unaccounted for...he also has decided to mention her every 3-400 pages throughout all of the books to make sure people don't forget she exists...when you put it all together, he's setting up the single most powerful scene the books will have, where Ashara comes North with Aegon, and Jon actually gets to meet his mother...if George wrote a little faster, there wouldn't be a dry eye on planet earth on whatever Sunday night that episode aired...as it is, its something I think is going to have a major impact on Jon's psychological recovery from his return from the dead, and get his batteries recharged so he can help win the war to come
The Order of the Green Hand Really I think Jon would be more hurt because mother essentially abandoned him
ah ok..just wanted to make sure he was dead dead and not dead in the way the elder brother said the hound is dead,sandor is at peace kind of dead. he he
He's dead dead
Septa Lemo(nt)re(e)!
I find myself thinking bout some the shittier things to happen to characters. If Jon Snow is Neds true born son then he dpent his whole life as a bastard. Anyway found someone even worse off though ethen glover.. He went with Brandon stark(neds older brother) to KL, only one to survive. Then he sat in dungeon till after sack of KL. Hold on theirs moreAfter being set free by Ned went with him ToJ an died!! Run from the starks may be the moral of this story. LOL
Well shit I went to westeros.org for that info. Does this match up with your research? Neds 6 fromToJ Mark Rsywell,Willam Dustin, Theo Wull, Ethen Glover, Martyn Cassel, Howland Reed. Brandons companions to KL Ethen Glover,Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn, Jeffory Mallister
haha
That matches what we have
Well... I have to think you took his answer out of context. "The Shadow Knows" was a very common cliche back in the day. Everyone said it. Here's a link for you. It will help explain better than I could.
www.oldradioworld.com/shows/The_Shadow.php
Yea, we've been told that we may have missed a possible meaning of that statement because of a generational gap issue...however, the way George is known for answering almost every question with a statement that could have any number of meanings, or with a simple yes or no, I do feel inclined to believe there is something to every answer he gives
The Order of the Green Hand I used to think the same way. When I first read the books, years ago now, I hoped everything was a clue and had meaning. I have since changed my mind but I remember how much fun it was to assign meaning to every word. After hearing the author speak and finding out he did indeed base GOT on the real life Lancastrian, York wars I decided it just didn't make sense to believe that every word was a clue.
not every word is a clue...usually his clues are placed in very oddly worded dialogue or sentences...99% of the story is simply him telling the story...the most important aspects of figuring out the mysteries in the books are in physical descriptions of characters, dreams, and random conversations with unimportant characters that give you facts about past events
The Order of the Green Hand In the beginning I think there were quite a few of us that wanted everything to be explainable. Everything. Add in the little details from the show and our heads were exploding. A few examples, the feather in Season one and Season.... Five I think without going back to look. The string on Cerci's sleeve in Season Six. I hope we get some answers or at least some damn good clues before it all ends. I try to remind myself that GRRM could be massively mind banging everyone and will never clear up anything. And that's cool too.
What if it was Brandon Stark who got Ashara pregnant instead of Ned?
He died more than a year before Jon was born
I thought Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhall. Ned was so shy, he couldn't even ask her to dance. I don't think he would have bedded her. However, Brandon was known for bedding high born ladies. I believe he was the one to bed Ashara.
Harrenhal was sometime in the last two months of 281...Jon was born years later
@@conniebiggers1359 - we actually don't know if she became pregnant at Harrenhal...most people seem to be relying upon Barristan's she was "dishonored" line...but for a guy, particularly one in love with her and honor...Brandon or anyone adding a notch to his bedpost out of wedlock with one of the most beautiful and noble women in the realm would have been "dishonoring"...it doesn't mean have to equate to "pregnant".
It was Lyanna. Also I’m starting to think you’re a big fan of Ron Burgundy
Dude... Blue rose blooming on the Wall. He's Lyanna's son, look no further.
first of all, its a blue flower, not a blue rose, and it apparently fills the air with sweetness...name me something sweet about Jon...so its not a rose and it smells sweet, look no further
The Order of the Green Hand Isn't blue Lyanna's color? You said so yourselves! Who else is there on the Wall to give that vision its meaning? Great channel btw.
Stay classy.
Hmmmm....Could Rob have been Brandon's son? When she said the shadow between them?
I would love another reason to hate Catelyn but there are several passages that make it possible from Catelyn thinking that his father taught him well to her remembering the night she and Ned made a king together and several others
There's no doubt the Danes naming their heir Ned makes no sense but can this all be connected and Jon still not be Ned's son? Can the Septa still be Ashara? but then who did she give birth too How about she's Griff's mom somehow but if they're pretenders how is Jon Conninton (whos my fav new char)so easily fooled by Illirio? In my head John C is like Bienne wits and all His love for Rhygar matches her love for Renly so maybe he just wants to believe so bad. If Griff is Illirios though he must have gained all weight later in life I don't picture Him and Verys becoming who they are being in my head 400+ pounds lol I'm all over the place here
now that the show claims jon's mother is lyanna, did you guys change your mind?
no
Well, if there's reason for Ashara to be alive, then there may also be reason for Brandon Stark to be alive. We have faked deaths, misinterpreted deaths, and actual revivals. At this point I'd say all dead characters are Schrodinger's cats.
I think it's pretty safe to say Brandon is dead. Hundreds of people saw him strangle himself trying to save his father from burning. Ashara in the other hand allegedly committed suicide and GRRM said her body was not found
Given that argument I can agree.
It's now confirmed that Jon is not Ashara's son. I agree that Septa Lemore is Ashara. But I think that Young Griff is not "Prince Aegon" but indeed a "False Dragon" Ashara's bastard son, possibly sired by Ned or Brandon Stark. Daynes and Targaryiens are similar in appearance and both have purple eyes. Some even have Pale blonde hair like Edric Dayne.
did George release TWOW and I missed it somehow? I figure you're talking about the show George called licensed fan fiction and admits that he no longer even watches it...the same show Benioff said is now so different than the books that readers will be shocked... we're actually releasing a new video on this topic tomorrow...Jon IS NOT Rhaegar and Lyanna's son in the books...George put an annotation in the new iBook version of the series that conclusively proves it
So you say Ned and Ashara's son looks like Rhaegar while Rhaegar and Lyanna's son looks identical to Ned? What is the possibility of that? 0% + Jon baby swap move with Monster and Aemon can apply to Jon and Aegon.
I hope it's true. I hate Jon as a Targaryien. And I hate that the show named him Aegob. But I think GRRM made Daynes look Valyrian for a reason. Edric Dayne with Pale blonde hair and purple eyes, Selmy saying Dany looks like Ashara etc etc.
James Farrell but Barristan said Daenerys reminded him Ashara because they both have purple eyes. Ashara had dark hair. Edric has blue eyes I think not purple. Gerold Dayne has purple eyes and silver hair with a black part in it but he isn't a Dayne of Starfall.
Woohyun Fan I think they described Edric as having dark blue eyes that appear purple. His appearance in the book always stood out to me. There HAS to be a reason GRRM gave the Daynes these features. Also if Ashara is indeed Septa Lenore, why would she fake her death and dedicate her life to Rhaegar's son. She had no allegiance to Rhaegar aside from the fact that her brother was a close friend to him.
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( give her a smile ) OOYASss Roma SS Y verdico cambio
Diana Prescott