Rebuild the C30A for our NSX? Let's explore.
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- Опубликовано: 7 июл 2024
- We're joined by expert guest Chris Willson from @ScienceofSpeedLLC as we explore the option of keeping a C30A powering our NSX. What would a rebuild cost, and is it the answer we're looking for in a motor?
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0:00 Intro and series summary
0:35 What we're talking about today
0:51 Chris Willson from SOS
1:40 Chris's throughts on C vs J or K
5:03 More thoughts on K20C swap
6:17 C30A = Strong!
7:24 C Series Options (high level)
8:44 More specific C series details / determining factors
11:24 Cost of a Rebuild?
14:15 Pros of sticking with a C series
19:52 Cons of sticking with a C series vs a swap
23:48 Richard's thoughts
24:13 What's next?
Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of Lap of the World/Richard, I cannot guarantee against improper use or unauthorized modifications of this information. Lap of the World/Richard assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. Use this information at your own risk. Lap of the World/Richard recommends safe practices when working on or driving vehicles and or with tools seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of Lap of the World/Richard, no information contained in this video shall create any expressed or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage, or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or from the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not Lap of the World/Richard. 
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Your analysis is detailed and sound. C30A - whether rebuilt or replaced - will have far fewer additional variables introduced than a J or K series swap which might have an order of magnitude additional complexity. Also, you mention the need to move fast due to track season coming up. There I think you're underestimating the time it will take for this project, including procuring parts, doing the work, and shaking out the bugs to the point where it's reasonably reliable. Just spitballing, I think 6 months is extremely optimistic, and would be expecting more like 9-18 months, possibly even more. Best of luck to you, and I'll see you and Liz in Atlanta!
I would rebuild the C. Let the car sing the song of its people once more.
Thank you for all the great information in one place for all of us NSX owners. I know you will do whatever makes the most sense for you and how you use your car. IMHO: I hope you rebuild the old girls original heart if possible. She's been reliable, fun and 314,000 miles is amazing considering at least 10,000 of that is track miles. Good luck with whatever you choose and I will be tuning in to see what you decide!
I agree with Chris, I am not a fan of swaps unless one has too. That being said, that is so expensive!!! I agree with it being boring but getting the car back and good for many years to come sounds great to me. And hey! I have content creator on my Linkden!
Great video, thanks Richard! Loved listening Chris with some valuable insight from his work with @Scienceofspeed - and since we are preparing to disassembly and build our C-series, this is a very relevant topic. You can probably guess our vote: a 3.5L stroker with 6-speed + LSD! Our thought process as far as alternatives will always be that these lovely C-series engines are more in keeping with the nature of how the NSX was designed, from power delivery to exhaust note. We are excited to see how this turns out!
For a HPDE build, I would do a stockish C30. I am not in the NSX community but I don’t see many C30 rebuilds. So… in a way it is unique in the age of flashy swaps. However, that is not the reason to go C30, it is a big part what makes the car what you fell for, and it is reliable. People say swaps are easily reversible but wires get run and rerouted, same with hoses, and signals may need to be converted. It isn't as quickly reversable as it sounds. If you are selling it likely won't be a joy restoring it. You'll likely need to find some odds and ends which maybe difficult to find. Parts find legs when crated up extended periods of time.
My question is on the C30, if you go stroker does it increase crankcase pressure putting more stress on the oil system and need for a dry sump. Longer strokes typically in wet sump applications aerate the oil with the long stroke sending the rods deeper into the oil that is in the pan. Bigger sleeves may come with little down side. However, they might go deeper closer to the oil again increasing crankcase pressure by damaging bay to bay breathing. Is it a wet or dry sleeve? Having worked with a Darton wet sleeved LS6 block in a C5, Evans coolant is recommended and o ringed head gaskets. Dry sleeve should take regular coolant. Do you risk dropping a sleeve with wet or dry? Do the sleeves change it to a siamese bore? meaning coolant no longer flows between the cylinders.
So my vote is a C30 with possibly sleeves for a bit more bore if budget allows, and possibly some mild cams if available, affordable, and gains are worthwhile. Also with cams how often do you change valve springs with track time? C4 Zr1s pick up solid power with bigger sleeves and a little port work. Bigger bores allow the DOHC heads to breath. I came very close to picking one up to mod but wasn't brave enough. The first c5 came down to a MZ3 coupe, FD RX7, C4 ZR1 and a C5. I went with cheep parts knowing I planned to mod it.
I would not go forced induction on the C30 as I would not want to worry about the extra cooling on track when the air to water heat exchanger gets heat soaked. Street car, I’d likely put some forced induction friendly pistons in and run a bit more boost.
As a lowly outside observer who can't afford a blown-up NSX much less to rebuild one, here's how I like to think I would spend somebody else's money: C-series is original and "true to heritage", but potentially hard to find parts for and at this point the car is not a "collector's item" anyway. K-series is what everybody would do, and I don't like doing what everybody else would do. Plus then it sounds like a screaming 4-banger. I like to think I would go with a J-series, the biggest I could find and slap a supercharger on top. They were in a bunch of cars so parts are (relatively) easy to come by. You still get 6 cylinders, plus more displacement.
I'm sure if it were my money I would think about it harder, but these are my thoughts.
Definitely appreciate the food for thought. A boosted J would definitely be a lot of fun!
Wow great video. Love your NSX content Richard!
Keep it C-series Richard !!!!!!!!! Anything else would steal the soul of your NSX !!!
Richard! Love the series! I have learned so much about the various options. I see someone else made a prediction so I will too. If your use was for shows, dollar value, heritage value, etc. then the C is the obvious choice. Obviously, that is not how you use it. You love the car but it's time to make the decision that allows road and track use for the best overall experience, cost, value, etc. Based on your videos, the K swap is the best option in my humble, woefully unknowledgeable opinion and I can't wait to see what you do. Good luck!
I would say stay with the c-series. I think you touched on many of the points in your video...or Chris did about the C-series being an integral part of what makes a 1st generation NSX an NSX. There are options that are more than a "cottage industry" of a few people making "swap kits" if you go the J or K route. And, as Chris said - there are issues with "compatibility" with any swap. And, while the C-series parts are an issue, I think you'll find similar "issues" with the "adapters" (i.e., the custom parts to facilitate the J/K swap) as the few people who make them "move on" to other projects. We see that all the time with the boutique parts that are custom made for the NSX now. And why would we expect the "boutique of boutique" parts to not be similar.
Consider this - a rebuilt C-series (or replaced C-series) that you know "ground truth" on as far as the workmanship and motor condition should last you easily - if properly maintained - 15-30 years...even with how you track the car. Oh, and if "along the way" you run into a problem, you'll have a much broader community to draw from for expertise. The J/K swap and "availability" issues only really applies today...we have no idea what the parts availability for the J/K you swap in today will be 15-30 years from now. And if "readily available parts" and aftermarket options were really a primary concern, go get a C7 or C8 Corvette for the track...
Thanks Richard I have learned a lot. If I were in your situation I would lean towards staying with a C series. I have a c30c 5 speed with JDM short gears. I would probably go for a c32 with a 6 speed.
Nothing like logging onto YT and finding a fresh LOTW video. Makes these fresh 5" of snow not so bad.
Whew, good luck with that! That would shut everything down here, lol.
@@LapoftheWorld Got done watching after some sim racing and I would only add that I think you could do all the work that SOS does for $7500. You're a very competent mechanic, and have done work most people wouldn't touch. The Honda shop manual is basically a step by step instruction on how to rebuild a motor and two guys from NSXPrime just did the same thing in their garages and I'm sure they would love to help out via the internet if needed. With that extra money you could either just have a track fund, or buy-out all the other SOS products they have on the shelf (valves, springs, pistons, etc. which is about 8k in parts). While I do think the bloc, heads, and crank are harder to find, you can buy all the internals from SOS and that likely isn't going away anytime soon, and the odds of needing a crank/block/head after the rebuild are likely slim. Interested in whichever way you go!
@@JacobMueller Things I am considering. My challenges would be finding someone I trust locally to do any needed machine work, and then keeping my own work rate from severely inflating the timeline.
Great series Richard, it is a horrible feeling when you hear something go wrong with a C motor. I had a virtually identical thing happen to my C motor at a time when there wasn't a swap option available and even back then the prospect of rebuilding the C was costly. I even considered putting the C27 from the Acura Legend in my NSX just to be able to drive it. When I discovered that certain early J motors would bolt right up to the NSX and I would gain an increase in stroke and displacement, I had to investigate further. Fast forward to today and my J swap kit is a complete bolt in option with zero modifications to the NSX. That being said, I agree, the C motor belongs in the NSX, unfortunately that is not always an option today for various reasons. Today you are fortunate to have options, and I believe we all just want to see your car back on the road/track.
Thanks again for the opportunity to drive your J-Swapped car and for sharing all of the info that people now have access to when evaluating their options. One of the reasons the NSX community is awesome are people like yourself who've taken the initiative to build stuff for these cars to keep them on the road with one powertrain or another.
I went with a c32b 6sp swap. whatever suit your need man, it's quite the journey and a story to tell during cars and coffee days :)
I was going to bring this up too, I wonder what the cost to go to the 32 and the 6 speed.
I am in an almost identical boat! My 95 NSX (85k mi) just had a massive failure. broke a rod and likely spun the crank bearings. Just removed it yesterday. Sending it to Ben at Daisy for teardown. I'm looking at a C32B short block and reusing my C30A top end.
Best of luck! Was that a track-born failure, or just really unlucky?
@Lap of the World really unlucky
I was just cruising on the highway :(
If you do rebuild I would love see some video documentation if possible.
I’m in the process of k swapping my Miata. If I were to make the decision again, I’d probably go for an engine the car came with.
I waited 6 months for the swap kit to deliver. Then there were various small and big issues even before the engine goes in the car. Although the vendor was willing resolve them, it’s valuable time and resources wasted just to tackle the issues.
Swap sounds sexy, but end of the day it comes down to the attachment between you and the car. Don’t let a swap wear it down.
Thanks for the data point and best of luck getting your own project across the finish line!
What kind of upgrades are available to get more out of the C30? Cnc head porting? Cams? I honestly don’t know because Honda’s aren’t really in my wheelhouse but I like learning about other platforms.
I'll have to look into how optimized the porting already is. Cams are a thing, but you don't get a big ROI there. Most people seem to stick to bolt on stuff on the exhaust side or go straight to FI of some flavor.
I'm sorry if you covered this before, I'm not sure if you have gone accusump/oil cooler but if you are going to go forward with the C I think now would be a good time to do so which will also bring up the cost.
Definitely right! All of the options are going to need some oil system enhancement of some type to put up with how we plan to use it, so it's a wash cost-wise from that standpoint (an oil cooler is an oil cooler, etc.) I'm already talking to some people about some things though so expect to see more on that topic.
@@LapoftheWorld yeah all 3 options will have the same issues with transfers mounted engines.
I dream of building supercharged a 3.5l stroker. But that would be like 35 to 40k just in parts. XD
1st thought is to rebuild the C, but given that y'all have another NSX in the family, why not go radical and do the K!
How much are the C series’s motor in the US? There is a C series motor for sale here in Australia for $8k. With better exchange rate and shipping by sea, could be $6k US landed.
Definitely an option, but one with some caveats. You can find motors for not much more than that here. They exist. The question is always what condition a loose motor is in and will it need rebuilding anyway. Are you spending that $6-7k just to have to spend that same amount again to rebuild it.
One of your best informative videos yet so thank you very much. Oil starvation can be a problem with the OEM set up so would you go with an Accusump with I assume the C30 rebuild?
Thanks Wayne! We're looking at options there because regardless of the choice, all three options have the same weakness in this configuration.
@@LapoftheWorld Perhaps the SOS sump baffle would be sufficient.
@@waynemillis4418 I was curious what sort of pans, baffles or crank scrapers were out for the NSX and improving the oiling on the C30 reducing the risk of this happening again.
Add C pistons to J block.
I feel it all boils down to the use case of the car and what you as the owner value about the car so items like clout shouldn't factor in. Knowing that your vehicle has a mixed use case of road trips and track days. Part availability is a strong consideration. Finding C series parts on the road or near a track is going to be hard and harder as time goes on. I'm still feeling the J-series as a strong contender. I would keep the C series engine in storage and if the need arises and Honda revives part availability later through a heritage program you can always pickup a rebuild later to convert the car back to numbers matching.
The parts availability thing is a hard one to judge. On one hand there are several aftermarket suppliers prepared to pick up some of the slack for the C motors who just haven't pulled the trigger yet because OE parts are still out there, and potential for technology to help out as well with 3d printed stuff becoming more of a thing. That said, with the J motors you're pretty guaranteed availability of factory parts until the end of time.
Stay pure - C!
Rebuild Re Bore 3.2L w a Science Of Speed Super Charger w a Inter Cooler
Hope you're doing well my friend :)
I know it may be sacrilege, but have you looked at Toyota's 2GRFE? The engine is used in many Toyota applications as well as the Lotus Evora. It's one of the best sounding V6s I've ever heard.
Hey Corey! Definitely an interesting off-brand option there. Everyone says the Evora/Emira are almost spiritual reincarnations of the OG NSX.
@@LapoftheWorld I think the 2gr is one of the best v6s currently in production. It would make a lot of purists mad, but if I had to pick a modern engine that was a spiritual successor to the NSXs, I would choose a 2gr
Why is a crankshaft so much? Is it fully refreshed in some manner?
At this point it's more because they are borderline "unobtanium". There are next to no cranks in North America and used ones can be risky depending on how used, how they've been stored etc.
sounds like the most reasonable thing to do is buy another nsx, so you can compare all 3 engine options side by side.
That is a brilliant plan. Unfortunately my subscriber count is missing a couple of decimal places right now that would facilitate such shenanigans, lol.
Nsxs don’t have matching number motors. I don’t think Japan even did that until the 2000s. You can get an idea by how old the motor is by the number if it’s higher or lower but there’s not a list or anything connecting it to the chassis. Keep the C!!!! Good luck Richard!
Cool trivia! Just imagine some air-quotes then when I said that. I'll have to look at the engine number to see if we can figure out when it was built relative to the chassis.
I thought the same thing when I had SOS build me a motor. Vasos told me the numbers don’t match to the chassis. I still have original motor though and plan to rebuild it to oem specs for when the car is returned to stock eventually one day.
sure has the NSX matching number motors. The engine serial number is on the vin plate, at least on Euro and JDM cars. :) I know Acuras dont have this vin plate
@@christianmittendorfer7620 exactly. Acuras don’t have a VIN plate with an engine serial number on it and there’s no official record kept anywhere as far as I know.
it has a 90 degree ;)
Derp. I had J on the brain, which is the 60 🤦♂️
@@LapoftheWorldglad to hear you had J on the brain.
While I believe in “K-swap the world”, there is nothing like the C30A/C32B and the sounds that they make in a NSX. THANK YOU for this series. I have learned a lot, whether you are chasing “Internet clout” or not🤣🤣🤣. I look forward to your decision.
Thanks Bob! Right now I'm just sad I couldn't push this all into April for the "LS swap" video on the 1st. 😅
I think you've moved into existential territory: why were you doing what you were doing? Was it to visit as many tracks as possible in the very car you drove there? The NSX is cool, but does it have to be an NSX? Could you do Lap of the World in another car? I kind of feel like the answer is no, doing this adventure in an NSX is an essential part of the journey. To me, it's not an NSX anymore if you do anything other than a C. You might as well just sell the NSX and buy a CTR and start over again if you K-swap it. It's not logical to keep the C and to keep thrashing it, I'll admit (the whole parts availability thing), but this whole thing is a little nutty anyway, which is why you started and why it's compelling. You've got to revive it to carry on, because this just adds to the story: a set-back overcome, the venerable ol' NSX is bruised but still alive. K and J swaps change the trajectory and it becomes a diversion, highlighting the swap, rather than continuing the mission of Lap of the World.