I think if they slapped Hard Light, Borealis, and Dead Messenger with Genesis then the perk would be useful because those guns are DESIGNED for that. Hell, put Shield disruption on those too.
Not gonna lie, forgot borealis exists. It's a shame that my Ogma with One for All / Adaptive munitions does all that without special ammo and stuns champs. Borealis needs a buff
It's not just that arbalest is so good, it's also that everything else against barrier champs is so weak. If you are using a bow or scout, you better be focus firing with a team, otherwise good luck on stunning them without dying. The same can be said for overload this season. Champs in general just feel clunky anymore, and their increased presence in end game context makes it worse.
I'd argue everything else in the kinetic slot is weak by comparison or adds no utility. If there was a Kinetic Secondary weapon that had Overload Rounds, Arby would have legit competition.
Always double primary for barrier or lament and erianas so no brainer just make better champ mod !! Like sniper barrier and gl unstop fusion overload something consistent !!
The issue with shield perks is that they serve very little purpose in low-level content, and no purpose in high-level content because Match Game and Champion weapons impose too strict of requirements to be able to be able to fit them into a loadout. Shield Disorient also had the drawback of only working on matched shield breaks, which meant that it was only useful in whatever percentage of activities that had that element and then only the handful of enemies that had that shield element. And even with changes, elements STILL serve no purpose. Some perks or mods or whatever only work with specific elements now, but that's still some secondary effect that's just arbitrarily restricted to that element, not something that's inherent to the element. Without the mods or whatever it is, the element still doesn't do anything other than "same color as shield = more damage." This is the problem with Match Game too. The ONLY mechanic of shields right now is that "energy = more damage, same color = MORE more damage." What does Match Game do? Just "same color = more damage." It doesn't add anything interesting to the system, it just changes what SHOULD be a bonus into a requirement instead.
What does match game do? Have you played Destiny? It requires that you use the matching element or you do no damage. Try to use a void gun against a solar shield in high level content. Hell, even using kinetic takes forever. So it's not "energy = more damage" it's "non matching energy = zero damage" and kinetic do some but it's almost nothing It basically makes them resistant to everything except matching elements.
Real With Match Game, you'll still deal more damage with an unmatched element than a kinetic weapon. Kinetic weapons get like 5% extra damage against anything; energy get 100% extra against unmatched shields, 200%. With Match Game, unmatched elemental damage will still be like ~1.9x the damage of a kinetic of the same archetype. The modifier only SAYS unmatched elemental damage takes a penalty, but kinetic gets the same penalty for some reason. I have a video on my channel testing it if you want to see, should be in the "Various Tests" playlist. It's still effectively no damage either way though, you're right about that.
I actually think turnabout is a really good perk, but *only* against lucent hive. It does actually give you the overshield for popping a lucent moth overshield, which aren’t affected by match game. I do think the size of the overshield is a bit lacking, but if it gets a health bump, I think it could be a really good perk if they add anymore weak overshields to other races. I do also think this might make servitors more fun to fight, give enemies overshields rather than just immunity. It would make fighting barrier servitors a bit less aggravating
Turnabout is fun against lucent hive, but the perk just doesn't help enough. It doesn't give enough survivability to out weigh a damage perk for the same slot. Either Bungie needs to buff the shield, or make it an origin perk, because it's not really worth my time otherwise.
i got it on the Vow GL and it isnt bad. i would break an arc shield get healed and overshield which for normal strikes or lower difficulty nightfall's is alright for surviving
Skyburner's Oath Enjoyer Or roll it in with another perk. We have a lot of shit weapon perks that they seem to be too scared to buff very much, so maybe just combining some would buff them without giving them a single effect that's too strong. You could combine Turnabout with Adaptive Munitions for example, and roll Disruption Break and Shield Disorient together maybe.
A major issue that contributes to this issue, is the lack of special weapon anti champion mods from the artifact. There’s 1 option, and if you’re not using that (glaives), then you’re forced to either use one of the few exotic intrinsic anti champ options, or do double primary. With arbalest as clearly the most versatile option, i don’t know how bungie can seriously look at this and say that arbalest is too strong. No the issue is that there are no other viable special weapon options for high end content.
It would really open up the loadouts available if each season every champion type gets 1 primary anti-champion mod, and 1 special or heavy anti-champion mod.
@@undergroundman1223 I think at least 2 maybe 3 for primaries, at least 1 special weapon for each, and maybe a heavy for one or more champ type. enough to shift the meta slightly, but not too much as to be oppressive to loadout diversity
Borealis needs to be reworked or severely buffed in PvE at this point. It needs to be a sniper version of Arbalest, considering it's meant to be an anti-shield sniper
Borealis and hardlight should switch element automatically if you ask me. You choose your main element just like it does RN but if you hit a shield, the bullet is of the shield element.
I think shields have outlived their purpose. They existed in a time where elements didn't mean much, so shield were there to give purpose. Now that bungie is trying to give elements identity and the difference between void and solar and arc are much more profound, they don't have as much of a place. Tbh, I'm not entirely sure what todo with them at this moment
They're so superfluous in D1 that the game doesn't even tell you how they work, and plenty of people just never knew. I only figured out when I realized I was getting colored numbers sometimes, and that it was when my element matched the enemy shield.
They existed as artificial means to make the game more complex, but now a weapon's element dictates subclass synergy and shields need to be toned down. I personally like the moth mechanic, but I suppose doing something like that for every faction wouldn't be viable
I'd say keep the shields as a way for a little extra damage with the shield pop. A overshield type thing that we and the Hive have wont add or change much imo.
11:30 yeah, the problem is that Destiny for many years has not really wanted to give weapons with elemental damage anything other than the ability to break a shield. Now that void is there to suppress enemies or arc (I imagine) will be there to chain damage to other enemies, the shields definitely show their age.
Since D1 I've wished the elements did more than just bust the matching shields faster. I wish they could make them function like Borderlands' elements, but I get why that's a tough thing to implement in a game that's ongoing
I think element specific perks like Headstone are a good start to this, but I wish elemental weapon damage had universal status effects they could apply. Deal enough stasis damage from a Eyasluna, apply slow. Deal enough void damage, apply weaken. Deal enough solar damage, apply a burn DOT. Etc. Then have perks that enhance those effects/add more effects, have matching elemental shield breaks create an elemental effect explosion ie break a solar shield with a solar weapon and create an explosion that applies burn to all nearby enemies (and remove/reduce the mismatch shield penalty & match game), create some new combat armor mods/exotics/class abilities that play into these effects. Now you don't *need* to run an arc weapon to even have a chance of breaking an arc shield, but you miss out on chaining some effects together if a particular activity has a lot of arc shields. You're not punished for running the "wrong" elements but you miss out on some powerful ability synergy
@@jerryballstein yup, exactly and not just that. Something that Destiny needs from Borderlands is having enemies be weak to specific things for certain reasons. Hive for example being weak to solar, except Ogres because they should be void or something. That kind of thing could also work.
I wish different element shields functioned differently. There is zero difference between a void shield and a solar shield besides being able to be popped faster by the right element. What if Solar shields burned you when you got close? Or Arc shields let an enemy move faster? If shields did more than just make an enemy a bigger bullet sponge, I imagine that would really boost the effectiveness and 'attractiveness' of shield perks. Obviously it would need a huge balancing rework, but... Bigger health bars aren't very exciting to me. Alternatively, what if you could break a shield faster by getting headshots/striking from behind? That would incentivize more strategic play, and reward skill, as opposed to just being another box you have to check off for your loadout.
I agree, it would make more sense that the shields actually have special abilities rather than just being an obstacle that you get rid of by using the right gun.
Lucent moths giving hive overshields gives shield perks slightly more utility too, but its only the lucent brood benefitting from it. I think shields could be potentially reworked from "Mandatory loadout restrictions with matchgame" to "opportunity to do cool shit if you build for it" if matchgame is removed, more shields are added to enemies, enemies changed to being crit-able through shields, and shield break interactions are reworked. Instead of an AoE explosion, why not have shield popping draw from their element identity? Popping a void shield with a void weapon makes that target volatile, popping arc woth arc is chain lightning, solar causes a burn DoT,future stasis shields could slow or freeze. These interactions lean into the builds because they now leverage our subclass interactions and perks, instead of a generic aoe pop. Yellow bar enemies could be reworked so that what makes them a worthy of being a "major" is the fact that they will always have a shield, and matching the element types could reduce their strength in a meaningful way. This would also all be much more fun without matchgame. Dont punish the player for not playing into the shield mechanics too much, if at all, but let the player see the reward for it.
Imo shields aren't really the issue, match game is. In normal content, any element is fine to break the shields but matching gives the explosion and stun - I don't know why they thought they had to change this for endgame. Stunning the enemy on shield break is a good enough incentive for me to alter my loadout if I have good options, especially vs stuff like wizards that spam continuously. Match game isn't really a challenge because if you don't adhere to the shield types or use arbalest in anything with significant numbers of shields you simply will not be able to complete it, and it becomes irrelevant when you match shields so you can actually play the game. It's more of a "how big is your vault" gear check tbh.
No shield types, no champions, and it was the best thing they have ever released in D2. I'm with you. We just need more of that. I'm cool with champions and stuff being like a nightfall specific thing, but they have no place being in raids or seasonal content. Raids are meant to be mechanic based, and test your teams coordination. Slapping on champions and match game in a raid is just a bullshit way to make them more difficult. It's just lazy, really.
Combine Adaptive munitions with turnabout and call it 'Shield Vampirism' make it an exotic perk and make it sap shield ON hit. Build a WHOLE gun around that, make it a primary, and make it have intrinsic anti barrier.
That will be another arbalest situation, but with how things are rn I'll take it. Obviously that weapon should be on the kinetic slot so that we can use energy specials, but again, you'll only have 1/2 champions covered
It is insane how when almost all pieces of content have shielded enemies there is only one modifier that changes how you interact with them, and it's in almost every single hard mode in the game.
I can’t even begin to tell you how much this video tackles so many thoughts in my head about shields in d2 but I still sit here with no answers to suggest at all lol
My solution to fixing limited build crafting and shields: All weapons can stun champions for starters. However, there are still mods in place to make this process much easier(not having to chase the fallen captain around, not having to put 11 arrows in a servitor, etc). This gives value to seasonal mods while providing variety. As for how to implement stunning capabilities into normal weapons, maybe make them line up with archetypes(lightweights can stun while you’re moving, high impacts stun when crouching and not moving, adaptives/similar archetypes can always stun, which would help those archetypes as they’re all on the weaker side for the most part). As for elemental shields, get rid of them. Replace them with shields that can be broken by all guns and have certain archetypes or weapon types do more or less damage to them. I feel this will give more utility to some of these shield perks and maybe make them extremely desirable in some cases. Elements on guns will remain for build crafting(charged with light, elemental wells, etc). There might be some holes in this I missed but for the most part I can’t see champions and elemental shields in the game much longer without changes at least similar to these.
Hats off to Datto for being one of the few community members who really tackles the balance issues in endgame content. As someone who's interest in PvP has waned and PvE exploded, It's cool that PvE players get someone who pays attention to the meta like the countless other PvP youtubers do.
Honestly, that would be amazing. It’s a heavy sniper so having it in a sense replace Arbalest when it gets nerfed would be possibly worth using and it would absolutely not break the game considering it’s DARCI lol
Considering Borealis's whole identity was "HardLight's shield options but with more damage and benefits on a sniper", I'd argue that's what should get it instead of a heavy weapon
Kinda think all shields should just be replaced with the overshield that moths give luscent hive. Then you could have more of them in general but it wouldn't hinder buildcrafting as much, and it would not fuck with more casual players. Plus then shields perks would have more value since you would simply encounter more shields.
This would make more sense. There's no reason to have elemental specific shields if there's no other aspects to them than creating artificial difficulty. Which should work both ways. If I'm running a solar build how am I not resistant to solar but they are??
in my opinion most enemies should come with shield except the shield value should work like guardians where the shields are majority of their lifebar where their health is very tiny in comparison
Some thoughts... - It usually seems advantageous to run an Energy Primary, and there are few Kinetic Secondaries that are really good. Fewer still as good as Arby (w/ its utility and ability to deal damage at range). - Double primaries feels bad, so with Champs, running a Secondary with an anti-Champ mod is a huge benefit. Arby is easily the best option here. Eriana's is also great, but see point #1. - If there was a Kinetic Secondary weapon with Overload Rounds, that would be a legit challenger to Arby right off the bat. Make it an Exotic Kinetic sniper w/ Overload Rounds that work as well as Overload Bow, and you might have a new champ. A Kinetic Glaive would also be interesting... A Disruption Break-like effect when using the ranged attack makes the melee hit like a sword swing maybe??? - Fair to say that many shield-based perks are weak. Some should be combined or perhaps provide a base benefit that is still functional when not fighting against shields (like what they had to do with Bottomless Grief) - Classes 3.0 seems to be the start of making elements mean something more (like mana types in MTG). It would be too powerful to give all Void weapons intrinsic volatility, weaken or suppression, but having to choose a particular aspect to enable this for that element type seems like a pretty good start. - Continuing the previous thought, maybe you make breaking shields with the matching element give more of benefit (like applying one of the aforementioned status effects... perhaps even to surrounding enemies). Either way, making shields be less of one-dimensional obstacle and more of a challenge with an exploitable benefit would be great. - We need to do something with Stasis and shields. Right now, Stasis is just "not-kinetic" when it comes to shielded enemies. I don't know that we need another shield type (not until you go the exploitable benefit route at least), but there must be something we can do here... inherent Adaptive Munitions-like effect might be too strong. Leeching shield energy maybe? Maybe Stasis is also strong against Solar shields?
I really think that something like an Origin trait for each element and then toning down shields as a whole (Mainly match game, shields without match game are kind of a non issue) would be ideal if ever possible. Something kinda like Psychohack but with like a half weaken might do it for Void, maybe a weak burn effect for Solar, and Arc might act like D1's Zhalo, but obviously much weaker. That or just go the Stasis route of having element exclusive perks.
@@pestyoverlord not at all. Shields are generally a recharging portion of an enemy's health, not something that determines the type of damage you can use. The most you get is, if there are elements at all, electric damage is slightly better against shields, they don't turn off damage types the way destiny's shields do
@@Sparxcwg54 I'd say that borderlands comes close. High level TVHM and UVHM definitely requires you to match elements. Other than a recharging shield there's health types that also requires you to swap elements.
@@Amirifiz the difference is that 1) acid/electric/fire/etc, are extremely easy to come by and you can very easily have every element at any time and 2) you can power through 90% of the mismatched damage/health types, even in UVH
I was very disappointed when I found out that the Dead Messenger's catalyst just gave it Turnabout, and that is for a weapon designed to be breaking shields. So I agree with you. Shield perks need some work, especially the ones that buff your shields. If overshields all stacked that might start a conversation. And, if champions got some attention, then barriers might be a bit different.
Most fun you can have with Disruption Break is on a GL paired with a SMG or a sidearm in PVP. I almost got my first "I made this for you" medal using Traveller's Chosen and Explosive Personality and I'm not even that good (Average KD runs between 1.2 and 1.4).
also super fun with a 140 HC! especially lumina! disruption break makes 140 Hc body shot do 70 damage, enough to finish off somebody hit by the GL, especially with how easy it is to proc on a wave frame. pair that with lumina for free damage buffs and just destroy everyone
Maybe it's time for Bungie to be more creative with how we interact with Champions each season. I think one option for the next evolution for them could be tying how we engage with them thru the light subclasses. For example: Void damage can be used to destroy barriers. Solar damage for Unstoppable. Arc damage to disrupt Overloads. (these elements could probably be rotated each season for variety) This could open up loadouts to not be restricted to specific weapons each season and potentially allow Bungie to come up with new dynamic ways to combat Champions thru the Artifact. Obviously this begs the question of where do Kinetic, Stasis, Weapons of Sorrow, other future subclasses etc. fit into the PvE meta and the only answer I'd have would be new Champion variations but I can see that being met with unwelcoming responses given the current fatigue with champions. And finally, Match Game. It seems Bungie is intent on keeping this modifier in the game especially the endgame so why don't we lean into it a bit more once Light 3.0 is finished? As it stands, Arbalest circumvents Match Game which is what it's intended to do but why not reward players for matching elemental damage to the correct shield? For example: Void damage to break a void shield causes the combatant to become Volatile. Solar damage causes the combatant to take Burn damage for a short time after the shield is destroyed. Arc damage causes enemies to be Blind for a short duration.
What if instead of tying it to subclass, champion mods were tied to exotic weapons. Give more exotics intrinsic champ mods, and allow the seasonal artifact to stack on these exotics. This would be a great way for Bungie to bring relevancy to untouched guns. They would probably pull the perks off guns like Arbalist to keep them from being too goated tho.
Match Game should either be removed or toned down for endgame content, but give player benefits for breaking a shield with matching element. Like, breaking an Arc shield with an Arc weapon does a chain lightning around the target like how Trinity Ghoul does, Void shield with Void weapon causes an mini implosion like Lorentz and targets affected by it become Volatile, Solar shield with a Solar weapon makes a big explosion that burns nearby targets, and explode if they die to burn damage like Sunshot. That way, you can play into the subclass synergies while not restricting players with their loadout.
I was thinking about how other games do elemental shields or similar mechanics, and a lot seem to have a tiered rock/paper/scissors system (think Pokemon). This would only work when more elements get added to d2. Here's an example with a solar shield, in order of most damage done: Stasis(x3)>>solar(x2)>kinetic(x1)>other dark element(x0.75)>>other light element(x0.5). If there were stasis shields, it'd go like this: Solar(x3)>>stasis(x2)>kinetic(x1)>other light element(x0.75)>>other dark element(x0.5) This would maintain the ratio of shields that a weapon is effective against (1/3) and give interesting bonus damage opportunities, but might limit builds a bit too much still. So, I'd most firmly advocate for a system like this: If the shields are solar: Any darkness element(x3)>>solar(x1.5)>kinetic(x1)>other light element(x0.75) If the shields are stasis: Any light element (x3)>>stasis(x1.5)>kinetic(x1)>other dark element (x0.75) This system would make it so that any given elemental weapon is effective against 2/3 shields, and would further reward bringing a darkness weapon than a kinetic.
The reason right now we don't habe stasis shields is because stasis is behind a paywall I believe, so a change like this would mean we'd need to get the subclass as part of the base game. Hopefully this'll happen soon enough.
Tbh, we need the option of dichromatic builds. I get the Monochromatic thing Bungie is going for. It's cool and all, but it also behaves as the uniform standard. You're doing something *wrong* if you try and run a solar heavy with an Arc build. Using your favorite gun (void) with your favorite subclass (solar) is something that locks you out of certain possible builds and gives you no alternatives. If shields stay a thing (which I'm fine with, as long as they become a more robust mechanic on top of other elemental mechanics), then dichromatism I think will become a necessity.
I think a reduction in damage to improve general utility is a good way to balance things, also most fireteams run in threes so I can see the original intention of splitting elements between guardians
@@eliaspanayi3465 Yeah, but we have four elements now, and actually, its better to run in monochromatic teams when you can, because you can feed off each others wells.
@@ncpolley yeah, I know what you mean but I came up with a build that makes use of hard lights void mode, using it with volatile rounds makes ad clear a breeze on any weapon, but because I have the other elements available and a good major killing sniper it really isn't that hard to make it work well
I got an Ogma PR6 with Adaptive Munitions and Turnabout. I was pretty hyped when I got it because I usually don't care about shield perks but these were two perks that go so perfectly together that it was almost too good to dismantle, so I kept it, telling myself that I would end up using it one day. That was when witch queen came out. I haven't touched the gun at all. It's been sitting in my vault for 2 and a half months
Thank you for mentioning how contradicting well mod builds are compared to end game content. Everything about the well mod builds or even solar war mind build promotes using all of one element. So right now you're best off having one void guy one solar one arc etc. This is so frustrating trying to build around all this
One thing I'll say in favor of Turnabout. It's actually kinda solid on something like Lubrae's where you combine it with the Glaive shield for what amounts to a LOT of extra survivability than the perk would offer on its own. In all fairness though, that's about the extent to which I can see Turnabout being slept on haha. If you're not stacking it with some serious damage resist, it's probably not worth it.
I think the thing I appreciate most about Datto's videos is that he is thinking of the developers and their circumstances when giving feedback. That level of consideration AND his level of experience with the game take him a step above armchair general. I'd certainly invite Datto to play a game I make
Speaking of burns, anyone else remember that ridiculous 'burn' modifier that would cycle through elements as well as kinetic every 30 seconds or so? Maybe they should try something like this again
I've been struggling with anti-barrier scouts and now I learned about adaptive munitions Pointed Inquiry and how much better it is for breaking shields. It even has genesis if you feel like doubling down on the shield breaking!
I think a larger issue, at least as far as it relates to this season specifically, is that not only is arbalest insanely strong at what it does, but we were only provided with *one* special/heavy slot mod in the form of glaives. We have historically had much better options than just running eriana's pre-arbalest for ab, and without much option outside of divinity or arbalest (or bastion if you'd like), no one want to run dual primaries. Even ghorn lobbies will still run specials, they will just elect to run one of the 2 mods and then just gally every champion considering you only need the stun once. They gave us one of the best gm options in the entire game while simultaneously not providing any competition that we've previously had like ab snipers or unstop GL's. Even OL is bad this season, mostly relying on how busted contraverse is on warlocks. I personally have 100 disc *with* weakening nades active and can effectively run unstop/OL or AB/OL nightfalls solo using witherhoard. I'm a witherhoard person and just breached 100k on it, but I don't get to really profit as strongly in strikes that focus AB/unstop because of the champion mods of the day. I mean arbalest one taps their shields, which is crucial in lightblade. I did lightblade running renewal and lament the day gms came out. Maybe we'll get some lmg mods next season? I think there is a conversation to be had about the end game system as a whole, but even within the framework of the restrictions, they made arbalest insanely strong without any competition. Ghorn is the same way. Name me any other guns dominating end game pve the way that they have? I'd argue maybe even more so than anarchy in its prime
OGMA PR6 can roll with adaptive munition and turnabout which is a s tier weapon in gm. Every shield you break (adaptive munition can break any shield) you get an overshield
4:45 Zealots Reward DB/SD I held onto mine for so long----eventually scrapped it. I feel that. 7:51 Genesis on Forbearance while leveling it up felt...fantastic. Might...MIGHT make another one with that perk for certain Arc Shield heavy situations.
The main problem with arbelest imo is that we don’t really have many options for special weapon champion stuns, we only ever get one special champ mod per season meaning that if you don’t want to run double primary then arbelest (or divinity) is mandatory
So my particular problem with Shields, specifically with Match game is its pretty much just that if you think about it Match game is a lot like the Champion system, but somehow less interesting. Which would probably be fine if it wasn't always stacked on top of Champions, which is why Arbalest is so strong as it can completely ignore Matchgame while interacting with the Champion system.
- Ditch elemental shields altogether, just give enemies a neutral overshield like the ones lucent moths give to hive. Elemental weapons still do more shield damage than kinetic. Maybe have different races apply this overshield in unique ways like how moths can fly into new Hive enemies and grant a new shield when one is broken. • Fallen shanks can fly around to different fallen enemies in the area to give/repair overshields. Prioritizing flying behind cover to get to allies and returning to their offensive AI once they get shot or when every nearby fallen has a full shield. • Cabal phalanx spawn with overshield and grant a full overshield to themselves and other cabal/psions that are behind them when they extend their shield to the long barricade. Acting like a titan with Citan's Ramparts. • Vex goblins can act like their taken variants that protect nearby allies but instead of making allies immune the entire time, they charge each other's overshields and return to firing once the shields are full. • Taken enemies have enough unique aspects to each enemy type but the enemies that currently have elemental shield (most majors) would just be replaced with this neutral overshield. These would be the only enemie types that can't actively shield other allies but they are also the only ones that retain the ability to passively regen their own shield if left alone. - To allow weapon elements to serve a functional purpose after elemental shields are gone, allow the current elemental shield break explosion to happen when the neutral overshield is broken specifically with a headshot/crit hit. Think mini-dragonfly but only when the last shot of the overshield is a crit by an elemental weapon. Solar would burn, void would suppress, stasis would slow and arc would chain lightning to nearby enemies. - Turnabout, genesis and shield disorient would all work on the new neutral overshields and would see more value/use because of this. • Disruption break can be changed to simply apply a weaken effect to enemies caught in one of the shield break explosions. • Adaptive munitions could be shelved with elemental shields but it's effect can be merged with osmosis. (Osmosis is an underused kinetic only perk that changes the weapon element type to your subclass element when you use a grenade.) A kinetic weapon that has osmosis would now passively do the same amount of damage to an overshield as if it was an energy weapon (aka adaptive munitions). Plus the new element-based crit shield break effect which normally wouldn't happen with kinetic weapons is now possible and the effect that would trigger would be based on your subclass. - Send champions to The Shadow Realm or the Destiny Content Vault (whichever is easier). Replace them with Lucent Hive. I dont care if it's a cabal strike and a Hive wouldn't make sense in context. Consider their spawning in non-contextual encounters an invasion. - Match Game can go with champions. Replace it with a modifier that spawns all minor enemies with an inital overshield and makes overshields *slightly* harder to get through. The new overshields I proposed above have no passive regeneration aside from certain taken majors. Prioritizing the moths/shanks/phalanx/goblins would prevent enemies from replenishing their allies' overshields. Once those are dead, the shields become non replenishing health buffers. No more wasting precious heavy/special ammo to get through a shield only to have it regen a few seconds after you had to take cover.
Reading some comments here I really like the idea of giving most enemies (maybe leave out thralls and dregs) a neutral energy shield that makes up part of their health bar. This makes shield perks nearly universal to all enemies and, from a suspension of disbelief stand point, takes away from the bullet spongey feel as its the shield that is sponging not the enemy themselves. From there we can diversify and add to enemies. Take Knights for example. All knights now have neutral shields, but a knight major can have a more powerful solar shield. this solar knight uses the eye-fire ability exclusively. A void knight uses the darkness shield ability exclusively and I'm sure bungie could come up with something for arc shields. And just like that a basic enemy has tiers and tactics introduced to them that I believe would create more fun gameplay. Hell let's go further and diversify the races too. Fallen, being closest in analogy to humans, would have larger shields with small amounts of health. Hive would sit in the middle, 50/50 on hp/shield and Cabal, who wear the heaviest armour, would have very small shields and large health bars.
Best instance of turnabout is on Dead Messenger, as it is a catalyst trait, but it isn’t really worth it on a legendary weapon unless the other trait options for the weapon are just trash, in which case the weapon wouldn’t be used anyways unless it is grossly overturned in damage output.
I need Arbalest in slot 1, and that means I can't use Unstoppable Pulse / Hand Cannon in primary, or Overload SMG/Auto in primary. Then I run into the burn problem, where I want to match the burn for the damage boost, but I'm even more limited in my energy slot. Not to mention slotting in GHorn.
Arbalest is super strong. But, I think its the symptom of greater issues rather than the issue itself. Its a kinetic special weapon, anti barrier, and strong against all shields. They can nerf it all they want, which is definitely easier. But, I'll probably still run it because its a jack of all trades in slot with no real competition. If they're not gonna solve the root issues, I'd rather see things get buffed up closer to arbalest instead of cutting its legs off
I think the real problem is the Champions. I think they need a massive rework. I enjoyed the Legend campaign because it was tough, but wasn't too Champion heavy. I mean, there also needs to be more guns that are anti shield. Without having to manually switch elements.
The only way im taking off arbelest in hard content: Remove the ramp up effect on adaptive munitions, make it deal full damage every shot. This or remove match game
Disruption Break w/ auto-loading and blinding on either Truthteller or Empty Vessel is pretty nice if you're running a good kinetic. But I agree with what you're saying.
this hints at the true bigger issue, perks dont matter, the difference between a 0/5 you got from a dreg and an adept 5/5 from the raid, is negligent at best
Honestly I think the stand-out issue is Match Game, not necessarily shields. Shields were a reason prior to the subclass synergies with energy types to run an elemental weapon, since while Kinetics have higher base damage, the suffer more against shields. Matching the shield damage type was mostly about getting the extra explosion, which is sort of like a shield-perk in and of itself, and is neat and fine and whatever. The issue comes in when match game forces you to further restrict your available options, in direct conflict with buildcrafting. Essentially, you are being asked to make a trade off between two do-or-die systems, so there's essentially no compromise between them. Considering being put in that position, it's natural that the one option that gives you an out of that choice, Arbalest, is *incredibly* popular, and will probably remain so rather than improving as various other 3.0 elements come out, as the go-to tool to bypass match game and run whatever build is your favorite or otherwise best suited to the situation, regardless of whatever elemental demands the activity is trying to make of you. If match game was something like 35%-65% DR rather than, what is it around 92-95%? It would be something you definitely *should* keep in mind, but a trade off you could acceptably choose to make to take advantage of Volatile Rounds or some other effect to come in future.
If Bungie doesn't remove shields, they could make it so that when they pop from the matching elemental damage, they give a debuff to enemies around them. Like blind, burn, suppress for the appropriate element. Match game is really annoying and should be replaced with something else.
I like that you commented on the limitation of the energy/kinetic slot. I believe kinetic primaries are going to be seen as generally weaker as the all one element builds become more prevalent with the subclass reworks. I'm glad genesis feels like it has a place as a perk now, but not so much that it just subverts the issue entirely. Trying to use a kinetic primary (w/o genesis) this season often feels like a lost opportunity cost for the uptime of an energy primary. Exacerbated by arbalest's strength as a special weapon.
You hit the nail on the head with Disruption Break and Shield Disorient. Both had uses that were way too niche. The shield on Turnabout is too weak but understandably so. Genesis never caught my eye ever either.
I like arbalest because its easier for someone to understand shields when they're getting back into the game/new to the game. You're totally right tho about the alternatives. I really want more choices in endgame loadouts and not having to STRUGGLE versus chilling with arbalest.
I actually had an Explosive Personality with Genesis drop during my playthrough of Witch Queen's campaign and used to great success during the final boss fight with those Wizards. Which in turn exploded, causing the enemies around them to take a significant amount of damage or die
I'm just tired of match game and shields being a pain point. Especially since most enemies that are shielded in an enemy group type have ones different to the shields normally used. And having to cover all those types of shields can be done but it can break the build crafting a bit. And no one wants to designate one person for one type of shield or one type of champion and then that person goes down to shenanigans and then your group may be screwed if all of the team isn't covering all bases. Bungie wants us to team work, well unfortunately the player bases likes to be efficient compared to what bungie wants. Back in d1 shields were this much of a problem but now in d2 they are just either annoying or need work Edit: the new burn modifier I would like more (and maybe others would) is if both the players and the pve enemies got the 50% damage buff. I dont mind being a glass cannon and back in d1 with burns you could burn thru neutral shields during a burn. That might give more weapons and builds to shine especially if they tone down match game a bit.
The funny thing about Arbalest is that it had the ability to override match game modifier since beyond light, but no one cared. It's only after they gave it Anti-barrier that it is now used a lot.
i like the idea of there being a new enemy type introduced into all enemy races that have elemental weaknesses and these would replace colored shields in some instances
Is it just me or should I not need a full mag for my scout in order to break a champs shield. It's really annoying when they pop a shield while I have half a mag and pretty much regardless what I do it'll end up healing at least some.
I think it would be cool to have the elements of shields have unique interactions with the elements of our subclasses and weapons. Maybe solar damage increases the explosion damage of breaking a void shield significantly or maybe arc damage against a solar shield causes a blinding effect, something along those lines. Take away the need to match elemental damage to shields and give us unique interactions between the elements
Always hated champions, don’t know why people ever thought they were a good addition. Is this a tangent that will never amount to anything? Absolutely.
What if we could apply adaptive munitions to a primary kinetic weapon via a mod instead of a perk. It could also apply a damage nerf so it's in-line with energy weapons since it's not "kinetic" anymore. Wouldn't apply to exotics because they can't take mods. That leaves Arbalest as the only exotic in slot that can do that job, but opens up options to other weapons that aren't as strong so you can free up the exotic slot. That would make the shield perks more worth hunting for on primaries. You can also use double elemental weapons that match your subclass and have your primary be the audible. With Stasis weapons and Weapons of Sorrow they're already getting rid of the line in the sand from the kinetic to energy slot. It seems like they want to make the line in the sand primary and special instead.
I’d add Osteo into the ‘kinetic slot pick’ for this season, just because of how garbage legendary auto/SMG overload rounds are. I seem to always run Osteo/Outbreak with a bow of the most numerous shield type. Works for me, but I’ve steered clear of Arbalest just for a change of weaponry, feels nice to dust Outbreak off with it having a mod!
It’s crazy to me that it took this long for people to realize why champions are unfun, especially with how unbalanced Overloads are. Requiring you to stunlock an enemy that gains stunlock protection and immediately starts healing while being able to 2 shot kill you is just… mind blowing.
@@221Prohunter i never liked them tbh but i think it's just the breaking point as the game evolves and so does build-crafting but champions' continued existence upends that entirely. so people are getting more frustrated because there's more fun to be had, except when champions are present. plus with the legendary campaign, bungie has proven that you can make difficult content without them (though making all enemy races have the light just for more difficulty would be wack storywise)
Turnabout is good on GLs, like the new solar wave frame or Dead Messenger. It's nice for tanky builds. Explosive personality doesn't really need a dmg perk, so turnabout or unrelenting works great there.
I think with the upcoming buff to machine guns next season is going to add a possible contender to the shield issue. All machine guns by design are elemental weapons and hold quite a lot of ammo. While certainly not having the tri-elemental capability of arbalest, they will become more ammo efficient by having more damage and with a decent increase to bosses, they will fell less of a handicap to single target damage which is typically what you want in your heavy slot. Therefore machine guns might be a good solution into being able to deal with elemental shields efficiently. I think this conversation might be worth revisiting after the machine gun buff.
The new direction we’re going with builds is really great but I feel kinetic primaries are losing they’re value a bit because they’re not x element. If anything I think kinetic and stasis weapons should proc the same.
I kept a genesis, shield disorient black armory sniper and used every time I did Zero Hour. It was just so good in it: popping shields, getting ammo back, and disorienting enemies.
I've been concerned about match game meeting up with elemental burns since start of GMs. We try to match our power to burn and use arbi if there's barriers. But if there's overloads and unstop...arbi no longer makes sense. Made a adaptive PI for those situations. My 2 crafted bows still use explosive head. Just too good not to use as there's no range dropoff for Taradiddle, right? I may craft another Under with adaptive but it takes so dog on much time to get levels up!
In defense of: Turnabout - the extra shields are pretty good in just about every high-level content related to Witch Queen - nightfalls, solo lost sectors, master missions/seasonal activities. I recommend it on Under Your Skin because a) it's void, b) Land Tank resistance in PvE can increase to 15% on top of can make a huge difference in survivability. Disruption Break - almost never worth it on anything but barrier champions, but I keep a roll with DB on just about every type of primary in case they're ever included in the seasonal barrier mods because a) I like variety, and b) I loathe Arbalest. But if you can stomach it, just use Arbalest. Genesis - it does come in handy on anti-barrier primary weapons with low mag sizes or low single mag DPS, as there's nothing worse than getting halfway through a barrier shield and having to reload while his health completely refills. I'm keeping a Genesis+ Vorpal Frozen Orbit in case snipers come back as anti-barrier. Also, not the worst 1st column perk on Heretic or Royal Entry if you get the 2nd perk you're looking for. Shield Disorient - If it's ever on a primary weapon in the future paired with one of the other shield perks I might be interested. Maybe on a special GL so you don't have to run blinding 'nades, but currently, no. Just no.
I really think the shield system needs to be adjusted so there’s less punishment for not matching shield elements but more benefit for matching it. The first step needs to be less use of Match Game. It doesn’t have to disappear completely, but it needs to be limited to content where there’s mostly only one shield element, so people can build into their synergies and not rely on their teammate to break a particular shield. The acute elemental burns don’t even have to always line up with the shield types. One person opting for better damage to non shields at the cost of shield damage isn’t that bad, but right now Match Game forces builds to be focused on versatility and not synergy, thus the Arbalest problem EDIT: watched the video and realised I repeated things that Datto said
Arbalest is 100% the reason WHY ive been exclusively farming EVERY weapon that can roll with Adaptive Munitions, surprisingly this perk drops on 3 different burn types so it matches any build/well buid you run "assuming" barrier is the for the weapon of choice, I knew arby was getting the chop when I saw adaptive munitions being stupidly good on the bow,scout, the 2 handcannons and the autorifle/pulserifle.
I think the problem is that shields are actually a holdover from Halo... They existed in an environment where there's one type of shield on copious enemies and limited resources to combat them somewhat (typically energy weapons), encouraging the player to scavenge and manage what resources the game gives them on the fly, per encounter. Sure it was a two weapons system, but you had limited ammo and had to pick up weapons from enemies and allies as an encounter progressed (not to mention the use of vehicles). But now we have multiple shield types and generally static and limited loadouts, making it harder for them to throw shields at us in a meaningful way anymore. They would have to rework shield interactions at a base level to make them interesting and worth engaging with again, the game clearly wanted a team of three all running different elements, but that's always been too much of a hassle in a loot based game where everyone may not have certain options ready. I'd propose some fixes, but there's so many ways that could be done it would be a whole essay. Make Kinetics break down the elemental affinity of a shield so any energy weapon could break it, all shields break the same to energy, but the enemy is briefly weakened to the energy type their shield was, heck they could even implement a new mod system or ammo powerups that help players deal with elemental shields in different ways...
Agree with all of it. All the shield perks need to be way more meaningful and impactful towards their intended purpose because they are such situational perks. That being said, lets say for example bungie fixed those perks up to a generaly good liking for the whole community. The discussion of more or less shielded enemies remains? I propose a decent inbetween of the "take shields away" or "add more shields" dilemma. Perhaps they can add certain shields that are not just elemental based, for one they can add a kinetic type of shield kinda like the throne world acolytes get, but make it weaker than elemental shields and more widespread, and allow all shield perks to work not only with their matched element but also with kinetic shields. They already have enemy specific shields too, taken vandal bubble, knight black shield, phalanx shield, scorn metal shield, etc these can serve as types of kinetic shields that these perks will then work against with varying HP for a stun etc. Also another thing, I think we can either make shield disorient be like a elemental capacitor type of perk in the sense of all the perks stated below become element based on the type of element your weapon is (not subclass) or completely take away something like shield disorient and add a similiar built in type of effect inherently within how the interaction of breaking matching or kenetic type shields with different elemental types can create an effect based on the nature of the element (the take away for this if its starts making the game too easy, is make shields HP like 25% more or something) but essentially, breaking a solar shield with a solar weapon causea mini ignition and spreads scorch to other enemies near shield break. With void you van do a weakness/supression effect to near enemies, Arc dmg overcharges their arc shield and causes them to overload and chain lightning and blind very near by foes (kinda like a blinding gl shot, but a little less radius). Breaking kinetic shields with kinetic dmg, staggers shielded enemy and a small radius of nearby enemies. Stasis shields if we ever get stasis shields, we can just have it create and area of effect with slowing. Those are of course just some ideas I had, pretty rough definitely maybe a lot of holes in them, but felt like it could be an interesting change for shields.
I think if they slapped Hard Light, Borealis, and Dead Messenger with Genesis then the perk would be useful because those guns are DESIGNED for that. Hell, put Shield disruption on those too.
@@1DanielBWu1 Infinite borealis ammo
@@1DanielBWu1 you know borealis literally already has that effect essentially right?
Not gonna lie, forgot borealis exists. It's a shame that my Ogma with One for All / Adaptive munitions does all that without special ammo and stuns champs. Borealis needs a buff
@@skyburnersoathenjoyer2060 And doesn’t require your exotic slot!
Hell nah fuck disruption break. It ruins crucible on cheesy ass loadouts
It's not just that arbalest is so good, it's also that everything else against barrier champs is so weak. If you are using a bow or scout, you better be focus firing with a team, otherwise good luck on stunning them without dying. The same can be said for overload this season. Champs in general just feel clunky anymore, and their increased presence in end game context makes it worse.
I'd argue everything else in the kinetic slot is weak by comparison or adds no utility. If there was a Kinetic Secondary weapon that had Overload Rounds, Arby would have legit competition.
Polaris lance babeeeeee
Le Monarque is the only other weapon I use for shield
Always double primary for barrier or lament and erianas so no brainer just make better champ mod !! Like sniper barrier and gl unstop fusion overload something consistent !!
I would tend to agree. You’ll never get the barrier down in time without dying or having the champ at least regen some health.
The issue with shield perks is that they serve very little purpose in low-level content, and no purpose in high-level content because Match Game and Champion weapons impose too strict of requirements to be able to be able to fit them into a loadout.
Shield Disorient also had the drawback of only working on matched shield breaks, which meant that it was only useful in whatever percentage of activities that had that element and then only the handful of enemies that had that shield element.
And even with changes, elements STILL serve no purpose. Some perks or mods or whatever only work with specific elements now, but that's still some secondary effect that's just arbitrarily restricted to that element, not something that's inherent to the element. Without the mods or whatever it is, the element still doesn't do anything other than "same color as shield = more damage."
This is the problem with Match Game too. The ONLY mechanic of shields right now is that "energy = more damage, same color = MORE more damage." What does Match Game do? Just "same color = more damage." It doesn't add anything interesting to the system, it just changes what SHOULD be a bonus into a requirement instead.
What does match game do? Have you played Destiny? It requires that you use the matching element or you do no damage. Try to use a void gun against a solar shield in high level content. Hell, even using kinetic takes forever. So it's not "energy = more damage" it's "non matching energy = zero damage" and kinetic do some but it's almost nothing
It basically makes them resistant to everything except matching elements.
@@Real28 energy weapons by default do more damage to shields than kinetic weapons
Real With Match Game, you'll still deal more damage with an unmatched element than a kinetic weapon. Kinetic weapons get like 5% extra damage against anything; energy get 100% extra against unmatched shields, 200%. With Match Game, unmatched elemental damage will still be like ~1.9x the damage of a kinetic of the same archetype. The modifier only SAYS unmatched elemental damage takes a penalty, but kinetic gets the same penalty for some reason. I have a video on my channel testing it if you want to see, should be in the "Various Tests" playlist.
It's still effectively no damage either way though, you're right about that.
@@Real28 you completely missed his point.
1:37 I don’t know why, but I could feel the pain of that shield throw
Forcer moment
This dude lives in destiny comment sections
Wdym you don't know why, that shield went through my screen and hit me in the face.
I actually think turnabout is a really good perk, but *only* against lucent hive. It does actually give you the overshield for popping a lucent moth overshield, which aren’t affected by match game. I do think the size of the overshield is a bit lacking, but if it gets a health bump, I think it could be a really good perk if they add anymore weak overshields to other races.
I do also think this might make servitors more fun to fight, give enemies overshields rather than just immunity. It would make fighting barrier servitors a bit less aggravating
imo its the tencity vs protective light situation where one obvi should be more potent than the other
Turnabout is fun against lucent hive, but the perk just doesn't help enough. It doesn't give enough survivability to out weigh a damage perk for the same slot. Either Bungie needs to buff the shield, or make it an origin perk, because it's not really worth my time otherwise.
i got it on the Vow GL and it isnt bad. i would break an arc shield get healed and overshield which for normal strikes or lower difficulty nightfall's is alright for surviving
Skyburner's Oath Enjoyer Or roll it in with another perk. We have a lot of shit weapon perks that they seem to be too scared to buff very much, so maybe just combining some would buff them without giving them a single effect that's too strong. You could combine Turnabout with Adaptive Munitions for example, and roll Disruption Break and Shield Disorient together maybe.
@@TheBizzerker yah but adaptive munitions is goated as it is. They would never buff that
A major issue that contributes to this issue, is the lack of special weapon anti champion mods from the artifact. There’s 1 option, and if you’re not using that (glaives), then you’re forced to either use one of the few exotic intrinsic anti champ options, or do double primary. With arbalest as clearly the most versatile option, i don’t know how bungie can seriously look at this and say that arbalest is too strong. No the issue is that there are no other viable special weapon options for high end content.
It would really open up the loadouts available if each season every champion type gets 1 primary anti-champion mod, and 1 special or heavy anti-champion mod.
@@undergroundman1223 I think at least 2 maybe 3 for primaries, at least 1 special weapon for each, and maybe a heavy for one or more champ type. enough to shift the meta slightly, but not too much as to be oppressive to loadout diversity
Almost like champions themselves are the core problem
Borealis needs to be reworked or severely buffed in PvE at this point. It needs to be a sniper version of Arbalest, considering it's meant to be an anti-shield sniper
Borealis and hardlight should switch element automatically if you ask me. You choose your main element just like it does RN but if you hit a shield, the bullet is of the shield element.
@@TheZeug They are switching faster today than they were before which was a whole reload animation.
@@victuz but what if borealis had a all element round
@@Betaster3000 Yeah, either that or it's perks reworked.
I think shields have outlived their purpose. They existed in a time where elements didn't mean much, so shield were there to give purpose. Now that bungie is trying to give elements identity and the difference between void and solar and arc are much more profound, they don't have as much of a place. Tbh, I'm not entirely sure what todo with them at this moment
They're so superfluous in D1 that the game doesn't even tell you how they work, and plenty of people just never knew. I only figured out when I realized I was getting colored numbers sometimes, and that it was when my element matched the enemy shield.
match game makes it even worse
They existed as artificial means to make the game more complex, but now a weapon's element dictates subclass synergy and shields need to be toned down. I personally like the moth mechanic, but I suppose doing something like that for every faction wouldn't be viable
I'd say keep the shields as a way for a little extra damage with the shield pop. A overshield type thing that we and the Hive have wont add or change much imo.
I have an idea
Just fucking yeet them into the literal void and forget they ever existed
11:30 yeah, the problem is that Destiny for many years has not really wanted to give weapons with elemental damage anything other than the ability to break a shield. Now that void is there to suppress enemies or arc (I imagine) will be there to chain damage to other enemies, the shields definitely show their age.
Since D1 I've wished the elements did more than just bust the matching shields faster. I wish they could make them function like Borderlands' elements, but I get why that's a tough thing to implement in a game that's ongoing
@@MercyBellQ exactly! the Borderlands way is the way I wish they could implement but it definitely feels like it's a little late now.
I think element specific perks like Headstone are a good start to this, but I wish elemental weapon damage had universal status effects they could apply. Deal enough stasis damage from a Eyasluna, apply slow. Deal enough void damage, apply weaken. Deal enough solar damage, apply a burn DOT. Etc.
Then have perks that enhance those effects/add more effects, have matching elemental shield breaks create an elemental effect explosion ie break a solar shield with a solar weapon and create an explosion that applies burn to all nearby enemies (and remove/reduce the mismatch shield penalty & match game), create some new combat armor mods/exotics/class abilities that play into these effects.
Now you don't *need* to run an arc weapon to even have a chance of breaking an arc shield, but you miss out on chaining some effects together if a particular activity has a lot of arc shields. You're not punished for running the "wrong" elements but you miss out on some powerful ability synergy
@@jerryballstein yup, exactly and not just that. Something that Destiny needs from Borderlands is having enemies be weak to specific things for certain reasons. Hive for example being weak to solar, except Ogres because they should be void or something. That kind of thing could also work.
I wish different element shields functioned differently. There is zero difference between a void shield and a solar shield besides being able to be popped faster by the right element.
What if Solar shields burned you when you got close? Or Arc shields let an enemy move faster?
If shields did more than just make an enemy a bigger bullet sponge, I imagine that would really boost the effectiveness and 'attractiveness' of shield perks. Obviously it would need a huge balancing rework, but... Bigger health bars aren't very exciting to me.
Alternatively, what if you could break a shield faster by getting headshots/striking from behind? That would incentivize more strategic play, and reward skill, as opposed to just being another box you have to check off for your loadout.
I agree, it would make more sense that the shields actually have special abilities rather than just being an obstacle that you get rid of by using the right gun.
This is actually a really cool idea, give shields some more uniqueness with interesting mechanics.
Solar- burns you at close range
Arc- speed boost
Void- extra beefy shield
@@bonesofeao3968 void: keeps enemy invisible for as long as the shield is active.
I thought popping the shield with the right element caused an explosion too... am I wrong?
Love hearing Datto discuss these issues in destiny, it relieves me of the fatigue I currently am facing in the game at them moment.
Lucent moths giving hive overshields gives shield perks slightly more utility too, but its only the lucent brood benefitting from it. I think shields could be potentially reworked from "Mandatory loadout restrictions with matchgame" to "opportunity to do cool shit if you build for it" if matchgame is removed, more shields are added to enemies, enemies changed to being crit-able through shields, and shield break interactions are reworked.
Instead of an AoE explosion, why not have shield popping draw from their element identity? Popping a void shield with a void weapon makes that target volatile, popping arc woth arc is chain lightning, solar causes a burn DoT,future stasis shields could slow or freeze. These interactions lean into the builds because they now leverage our subclass interactions and perks, instead of a generic aoe pop. Yellow bar enemies could be reworked so that what makes them a worthy of being a "major" is the fact that they will always have a shield, and matching the element types could reduce their strength in a meaningful way.
This would also all be much more fun without matchgame. Dont punish the player for not playing into the shield mechanics too much, if at all, but let the player see the reward for it.
Just want to make sure that you know this is a very, very good idea. Well done.
Imo shields aren't really the issue, match game is. In normal content, any element is fine to break the shields but matching gives the explosion and stun - I don't know why they thought they had to change this for endgame. Stunning the enemy on shield break is a good enough incentive for me to alter my loadout if I have good options, especially vs stuff like wizards that spam continuously. Match game isn't really a challenge because if you don't adhere to the shield types or use arbalest in anything with significant numbers of shields you simply will not be able to complete it, and it becomes irrelevant when you match shields so you can actually play the game. It's more of a "how big is your vault" gear check tbh.
This
Datto i gotta say, you really know how to make monday even better :) appreciate what you do for the community brotha! cheers
The crazy thing is Bungie showed you can have challenging content without shield types in the Witch Queen campaign
No shield types, no champions, and it was the best thing they have ever released in D2. I'm with you. We just need more of that. I'm cool with champions and stuff being like a nightfall specific thing, but they have no place being in raids or seasonal content. Raids are meant to be mechanic based, and test your teams coordination. Slapping on champions and match game in a raid is just a bullshit way to make them more difficult. It's just lazy, really.
Combine Adaptive munitions with turnabout and call it 'Shield Vampirism' make it an exotic perk and make it sap shield ON hit. Build a WHOLE gun around that, make it a primary, and make it have intrinsic anti barrier.
Or maybe a weapon of sorrow? or make it synergize with karnstein armlets?
That will be another arbalest situation, but with how things are rn I'll take it. Obviously that weapon should be on the kinetic slot so that we can use energy specials, but again, you'll only have 1/2 champions covered
It is insane how when almost all pieces of content have shielded enemies there is only one modifier that changes how you interact with them, and it's in almost every single hard mode in the game.
I can’t even begin to tell you how much this video tackles so many thoughts in my head about shields in d2 but I still sit here with no answers to suggest at all lol
My solution to fixing limited build crafting and shields: All weapons can stun champions for starters. However, there are still mods in place to make this process much easier(not having to chase the fallen captain around, not having to put 11 arrows in a servitor, etc). This gives value to seasonal mods while providing variety. As for how to implement stunning capabilities into normal weapons, maybe make them line up with archetypes(lightweights can stun while you’re moving, high impacts stun when crouching and not moving, adaptives/similar archetypes can always stun, which would help those archetypes as they’re all on the weaker side for the most part). As for elemental shields, get rid of them. Replace them with shields that can be broken by all guns and have certain archetypes or weapon types do more or less damage to them. I feel this will give more utility to some of these shield perks and maybe make them extremely desirable in some cases. Elements on guns will remain for build crafting(charged with light, elemental wells, etc). There might be some holes in this I missed but for the most part I can’t see champions and elemental shields in the game much longer without changes at least similar to these.
Hats off to Datto for being one of the few community members who really tackles the balance issues in endgame content. As someone who's interest in PvP has waned and PvE exploded, It's cool that PvE players get someone who pays attention to the meta like the countless other PvP youtubers do.
DARCI should get every shield perk combined
Honestly, that would be amazing. It’s a heavy sniper so having it in a sense replace Arbalest when it gets nerfed would be possibly worth using and it would absolutely not break the game considering it’s DARCI lol
Considering Borealis's whole identity was "HardLight's shield options but with more damage and benefits on a sniper", I'd argue that's what should get it instead of a heavy weapon
Kinda think all shields should just be replaced with the overshield that moths give luscent hive. Then you could have more of them in general but it wouldn't hinder buildcrafting as much, and it would not fuck with more casual players. Plus then shields perks would have more value since you would simply encounter more shields.
Moths are cancer imo
@@Hardrive2677 Never said they needed the moths, just the shield type.
This would make more sense. There's no reason to have elemental specific shields if there's no other aspects to them than creating artificial difficulty. Which should work both ways. If I'm running a solar build how am I not resistant to solar but they are??
in my opinion most enemies should come with shield except the shield value should work like guardians where the shields are majority of their lifebar where their health is very tiny in comparison
Some thoughts...
- It usually seems advantageous to run an Energy Primary, and there are few Kinetic Secondaries that are really good. Fewer still as good as Arby (w/ its utility and ability to deal damage at range).
- Double primaries feels bad, so with Champs, running a Secondary with an anti-Champ mod is a huge benefit. Arby is easily the best option here. Eriana's is also great, but see point #1.
- If there was a Kinetic Secondary weapon with Overload Rounds, that would be a legit challenger to Arby right off the bat. Make it an Exotic Kinetic sniper w/ Overload Rounds that work as well as Overload Bow, and you might have a new champ. A Kinetic Glaive would also be interesting... A Disruption Break-like effect when using the ranged attack makes the melee hit like a sword swing maybe???
- Fair to say that many shield-based perks are weak. Some should be combined or perhaps provide a base benefit that is still functional when not fighting against shields (like what they had to do with Bottomless Grief)
- Classes 3.0 seems to be the start of making elements mean something more (like mana types in MTG). It would be too powerful to give all Void weapons intrinsic volatility, weaken or suppression, but having to choose a particular aspect to enable this for that element type seems like a pretty good start.
- Continuing the previous thought, maybe you make breaking shields with the matching element give more of benefit (like applying one of the aforementioned status effects... perhaps even to surrounding enemies). Either way, making shields be less of one-dimensional obstacle and more of a challenge with an exploitable benefit would be great.
- We need to do something with Stasis and shields. Right now, Stasis is just "not-kinetic" when it comes to shielded enemies. I don't know that we need another shield type (not until you go the exploitable benefit route at least), but there must be something we can do here... inherent Adaptive Munitions-like effect might be too strong. Leeching shield energy maybe? Maybe Stasis is also strong against Solar shields?
I really think that something like an Origin trait for each element and then toning down shields as a whole (Mainly match game, shields without match game are kind of a non issue) would be ideal if ever possible. Something kinda like Psychohack but with like a half weaken might do it for Void, maybe a weak burn effect for Solar, and Arc might act like D1's Zhalo, but obviously much weaker. That or just go the Stasis route of having element exclusive perks.
Datto: "outbreak is the only kinetic primary i would ever use on a champion."
Hawkmoon: "am I a joke to you?"
Bungie: understood, we're doubling the amount of shielded enemies and match game is now standard on everything
Are shields a thing like they are in Destiny in other similar games? Generally curious; maybe we could take something from them if they do it right?
You need to play more video games my dude. Most games do. The one closest to destinys take is mass effect.
@@pestyoverlord “Most games” Not really… overshield is somewhat common but not shield types.
@@pestyoverlord not at all. Shields are generally a recharging portion of an enemy's health, not something that determines the type of damage you can use.
The most you get is, if there are elements at all, electric damage is slightly better against shields, they don't turn off damage types the way destiny's shields do
@@Sparxcwg54 I'd say that borderlands comes close. High level TVHM and UVHM definitely requires you to match elements. Other than a recharging shield there's health types that also requires you to swap elements.
@@Amirifiz the difference is that 1) acid/electric/fire/etc, are extremely easy to come by and you can very easily have every element at any time and 2) you can power through 90% of the mismatched damage/health types, even in UVH
I was very disappointed when I found out that the Dead Messenger's catalyst just gave it Turnabout, and that is for a weapon designed to be breaking shields. So I agree with you. Shield perks need some work, especially the ones that buff your shields. If overshields all stacked that might start a conversation. And, if champions got some attention, then barriers might be a bit different.
Most fun you can have with Disruption Break is on a GL paired with a SMG or a sidearm in PVP. I almost got my first "I made this for you" medal using Traveller's Chosen and Explosive Personality and I'm not even that good (Average KD runs between 1.2 and 1.4).
also super fun with a 140 HC! especially lumina! disruption break makes 140 Hc body shot do 70 damage, enough to finish off somebody hit by the GL, especially with how easy it is to proc on a wave frame. pair that with lumina for free damage buffs and just destroy everyone
I’ve been using this with a crafted submission smg and my god…
Maybe it's time for Bungie to be more creative with how we interact with Champions each season. I think one option for the next evolution for them could be tying how we engage with them thru the light subclasses.
For example:
Void damage can be used to destroy barriers.
Solar damage for Unstoppable.
Arc damage to disrupt Overloads. (these elements could probably be rotated each season for variety)
This could open up loadouts to not be restricted to specific weapons each season and potentially allow Bungie to come up with new dynamic ways to combat Champions thru the Artifact. Obviously this begs the question of where do Kinetic, Stasis, Weapons of Sorrow, other future subclasses etc. fit into the PvE meta and the only answer I'd have would be new Champion variations but I can see that being met with unwelcoming responses given the current fatigue with champions.
And finally, Match Game. It seems Bungie is intent on keeping this modifier in the game especially the endgame so why don't we lean into it a bit more once Light 3.0 is finished? As it stands, Arbalest circumvents Match Game which is what it's intended to do but why not reward players for matching elemental damage to the correct shield?
For example:
Void damage to break a void shield causes the combatant to become Volatile.
Solar damage causes the combatant to take Burn damage for a short time after the shield is destroyed.
Arc damage causes enemies to be Blind for a short duration.
Someone watches kujay. This solves nothing this just replaces one loadout restriction with another
@@ellyark674 exactly
yeah like anti barrier could be shot by anything like stasis shields or unstop has a crit spot you gotta shoot like caretaker
What if instead of tying it to subclass, champion mods were tied to exotic weapons. Give more exotics intrinsic champ mods, and allow the seasonal artifact to stack on these exotics. This would be a great way for Bungie to bring relevancy to untouched guns. They would probably pull the perks off guns like Arbalist to keep them from being too goated tho.
@@skyburnersoathenjoyer2060 If the best way to make other guns good is to make 1 gun worse then imo that's not a good solution
Match Game should either be removed or toned down for endgame content, but give player benefits for breaking a shield with matching element. Like, breaking an Arc shield with an Arc weapon does a chain lightning around the target like how Trinity Ghoul does, Void shield with Void weapon causes an mini implosion like Lorentz and targets affected by it become Volatile, Solar shield with a Solar weapon makes a big explosion that burns nearby targets, and explode if they die to burn damage like Sunshot. That way, you can play into the subclass synergies while not restricting players with their loadout.
I was thinking about how other games do elemental shields or similar mechanics, and a lot seem to have a tiered rock/paper/scissors system (think Pokemon). This would only work when more elements get added to d2. Here's an example with a solar shield, in order of most damage done:
Stasis(x3)>>solar(x2)>kinetic(x1)>other dark element(x0.75)>>other light element(x0.5).
If there were stasis shields, it'd go like this:
Solar(x3)>>stasis(x2)>kinetic(x1)>other light element(x0.75)>>other dark element(x0.5)
This would maintain the ratio of shields that a weapon is effective against (1/3) and give interesting bonus damage opportunities, but might limit builds a bit too much still.
So, I'd most firmly advocate for a system like this:
If the shields are solar:
Any darkness element(x3)>>solar(x1.5)>kinetic(x1)>other light element(x0.75)
If the shields are stasis:
Any light element (x3)>>stasis(x1.5)>kinetic(x1)>other dark element (x0.75)
This system would make it so that any given elemental weapon is effective against 2/3 shields, and would further reward bringing a darkness weapon than a kinetic.
The reason right now we don't habe stasis shields is because stasis is behind a paywall I believe, so a change like this would mean we'd need to get the subclass as part of the base game. Hopefully this'll happen soon enough.
Daddy Datto blessing us with content in the middle of a Monday 😩🙏
Great content! Appreciate the focus on game aspects (not just another build video)! More of this kind of vids would be great! Thx. :)
Thank you for uploading right before I started eating my food, beautiful timing
Honestly if I had to pick 1 to go it would be match game. Champions suck too but match game pisses me off for some reason
Tbh, we need the option of dichromatic builds.
I get the Monochromatic thing Bungie is going for. It's cool and all, but it also behaves as the uniform standard.
You're doing something *wrong* if you try and run a solar heavy with an Arc build.
Using your favorite gun (void) with your favorite subclass (solar) is something that locks you out of certain possible builds and gives you no alternatives.
If shields stay a thing (which I'm fine with, as long as they become a more robust mechanic on top of other elemental mechanics), then dichromatism I think will become a necessity.
I think a reduction in damage to improve general utility is a good way to balance things, also most fireteams run in threes so I can see the original intention of splitting elements between guardians
@@eliaspanayi3465 Yeah, but we have four elements now, and actually, its better to run in monochromatic teams when you can, because you can feed off each others wells.
@@ncpolley yeah, I know what you mean but I came up with a build that makes use of hard lights void mode, using it with volatile rounds makes ad clear a breeze on any weapon, but because I have the other elements available and a good major killing sniper it really isn't that hard to make it work well
I got an Ogma PR6 with Adaptive Munitions and Turnabout. I was pretty hyped when I got it because I usually don't care about shield perks but these were two perks that go so perfectly together that it was almost too good to dismantle, so I kept it, telling myself that I would end up using it one day.
That was when witch queen came out. I haven't touched the gun at all. It's been sitting in my vault for 2 and a half months
Thank you for mentioning how contradicting well mod builds are compared to end game content. Everything about the well mod builds or even solar war mind build promotes using all of one element. So right now you're best off having one void guy one solar one arc etc. This is so frustrating trying to build around all this
One thing I'll say in favor of Turnabout. It's actually kinda solid on something like Lubrae's where you combine it with the Glaive shield for what amounts to a LOT of extra survivability than the perk would offer on its own.
In all fairness though, that's about the extent to which I can see Turnabout being slept on haha. If you're not stacking it with some serious damage resist, it's probably not worth it.
Turnabout is so shitty because not only are there not enough shields for it to matter, it's usually in the 4th column competing with damage perks.
It's nice on Dead Messenger though. It'll be nice on Graviton Lance next season too.
I feel like at some point, most exotic weapons should have intrinsic champion mods
I think the thing I appreciate most about Datto's videos is that he is thinking of the developers and their circumstances when giving feedback. That level of consideration AND his level of experience with the game take him a step above armchair general. I'd certainly invite Datto to play a game I make
*Insert insightful comment about the current meta of the game*
Ape, sit in the back with pulse, ape aaaaaaand ape. Lmk if I missed anything
Insert comment about personal preference for future buffs that will literally never be implemented
Dumb comment is dumb.
Speaking of burns, anyone else remember that ridiculous 'burn' modifier that would cycle through elements as well as kinetic every 30 seconds or so?
Maybe they should try something like this again
That one was always interesting. I always took a hard light with me
I've been struggling with anti-barrier scouts and now I learned about adaptive munitions Pointed Inquiry and how much better it is for breaking shields. It even has genesis if you feel like doubling down on the shield breaking!
I think a larger issue, at least as far as it relates to this season specifically, is that not only is arbalest insanely strong at what it does, but we were only provided with *one* special/heavy slot mod in the form of glaives. We have historically had much better options than just running eriana's pre-arbalest for ab, and without much option outside of divinity or arbalest (or bastion if you'd like), no one want to run dual primaries. Even ghorn lobbies will still run specials, they will just elect to run one of the 2 mods and then just gally every champion considering you only need the stun once. They gave us one of the best gm options in the entire game while simultaneously not providing any competition that we've previously had like ab snipers or unstop GL's. Even OL is bad this season, mostly relying on how busted contraverse is on warlocks. I personally have 100 disc *with* weakening nades active and can effectively run unstop/OL or AB/OL nightfalls solo using witherhoard. I'm a witherhoard person and just breached 100k on it, but I don't get to really profit as strongly in strikes that focus AB/unstop because of the champion mods of the day. I mean arbalest one taps their shields, which is crucial in lightblade. I did lightblade running renewal and lament the day gms came out. Maybe we'll get some lmg mods next season? I think there is a conversation to be had about the end game system as a whole, but even within the framework of the restrictions, they made arbalest insanely strong without any competition. Ghorn is the same way. Name me any other guns dominating end game pve the way that they have? I'd argue maybe even more so than anarchy in its prime
OGMA PR6 can roll with adaptive munition and turnabout which is a s tier weapon in gm. Every shield you break (adaptive munition can break any shield) you get an overshield
4:45 Zealots Reward DB/SD I held onto mine for so long----eventually scrapped it. I feel that.
7:51 Genesis on Forbearance while leveling it up felt...fantastic. Might...MIGHT make another one with that perk for certain Arc Shield heavy situations.
The main problem with arbelest imo is that we don’t really have many options for special weapon champion stuns, we only ever get one special champ mod per season meaning that if you don’t want to run double primary then arbelest (or divinity) is mandatory
So my particular problem with Shields, specifically with Match game is its pretty much just that if you think about it Match game is a lot like the Champion system, but somehow less interesting. Which would probably be fine if it wasn't always stacked on top of Champions, which is why Arbalest is so strong as it can completely ignore Matchgame while interacting with the Champion system.
- Ditch elemental shields altogether, just give enemies a neutral overshield like the ones lucent moths give to hive. Elemental weapons still do more shield damage than kinetic. Maybe have different races apply this overshield in unique ways like how moths can fly into new Hive enemies and grant a new shield when one is broken.
• Fallen shanks can fly around to different fallen enemies in the area to give/repair overshields. Prioritizing flying behind cover to get to allies and returning to their offensive AI once they get shot or when every nearby fallen has a full shield.
• Cabal phalanx spawn with overshield and grant a full overshield to themselves and other cabal/psions that are behind them when they extend their shield to the long barricade. Acting like a titan with Citan's Ramparts.
• Vex goblins can act like their taken variants that protect nearby allies but instead of making allies immune the entire time, they charge each other's overshields and return to firing once the shields are full.
• Taken enemies have enough unique aspects to each enemy type but the enemies that currently have elemental shield (most majors) would just be replaced with this neutral overshield. These would be the only enemie types that can't actively shield other allies but they are also the only ones that retain the ability to passively regen their own shield if left alone.
- To allow weapon elements to serve a functional purpose after elemental shields are gone, allow the current elemental shield break explosion to happen when the neutral overshield is broken specifically with a headshot/crit hit. Think mini-dragonfly but only when the last shot of the overshield is a crit by an elemental weapon. Solar would burn, void would suppress, stasis would slow and arc would chain lightning to nearby enemies.
- Turnabout, genesis and shield disorient would all work on the new neutral overshields and would see more value/use because of this.
• Disruption break can be changed to simply apply a weaken effect to enemies caught in one of the shield break explosions.
• Adaptive munitions could be shelved with elemental shields but it's effect can be merged with osmosis. (Osmosis is an underused kinetic only perk that changes the weapon element type to your subclass element when you use a grenade.) A kinetic weapon that has osmosis would now passively do the same amount of damage to an overshield as if it was an energy weapon (aka adaptive munitions). Plus the new element-based crit shield break effect which normally wouldn't happen with kinetic weapons is now possible and the effect that would trigger would be based on your subclass.
- Send champions to The Shadow Realm or the Destiny Content Vault (whichever is easier). Replace them with Lucent Hive. I dont care if it's a cabal strike and a Hive wouldn't make sense in context. Consider their spawning in non-contextual encounters an invasion.
- Match Game can go with champions. Replace it with a modifier that spawns all minor enemies with an inital overshield and makes overshields *slightly* harder to get through. The new overshields I proposed above have no passive regeneration aside from certain taken majors. Prioritizing the moths/shanks/phalanx/goblins would prevent enemies from replenishing their allies' overshields. Once those are dead, the shields become non replenishing health buffers. No more wasting precious heavy/special ammo to get through a shield only to have it regen a few seconds after you had to take cover.
Nope not this time Datto! I have already formed my own opinion this time.
Reading some comments here I really like the idea of giving most enemies (maybe leave out thralls and dregs) a neutral energy shield that makes up part of their health bar. This makes shield perks nearly universal to all enemies and, from a suspension of disbelief stand point, takes away from the bullet spongey feel as its the shield that is sponging not the enemy themselves.
From there we can diversify and add to enemies. Take Knights for example. All knights now have neutral shields, but a knight major can have a more powerful solar shield. this solar knight uses the eye-fire ability exclusively. A void knight uses the darkness shield ability exclusively and I'm sure bungie could come up with something for arc shields.
And just like that a basic enemy has tiers and tactics introduced to them that I believe would create more fun gameplay.
Hell let's go further and diversify the races too. Fallen, being closest in analogy to humans, would have larger shields with small amounts of health. Hive would sit in the middle, 50/50 on hp/shield and Cabal, who wear the heaviest armour, would have very small shields and large health bars.
Best instance of turnabout is on Dead Messenger, as it is a catalyst trait, but it isn’t really worth it on a legendary weapon unless the other trait options for the weapon are just trash, in which case the weapon wouldn’t be used anyways unless it is grossly overturned in damage output.
I need Arbalest in slot 1, and that means I can't use Unstoppable Pulse / Hand Cannon in primary, or Overload SMG/Auto in primary.
Then I run into the burn problem, where I want to match the burn for the damage boost, but I'm even more limited in my energy slot. Not to mention slotting in GHorn.
Arbalest is super strong. But, I think its the symptom of greater issues rather than the issue itself. Its a kinetic special weapon, anti barrier, and strong against all shields. They can nerf it all they want, which is definitely easier. But, I'll probably still run it because its a jack of all trades in slot with no real competition. If they're not gonna solve the root issues, I'd rather see things get buffed up closer to arbalest instead of cutting its legs off
also timelines' vertex can get both disruption break and shield disorient
What happened to elemental primaries in the kinetic slot?
Fkn 35 seconds in and i already live it. Datto seems like a no holds barred video. Full force fkn Datto action. Lemme finish this sht..brb
I think the real problem is the Champions. I think they need a massive rework. I enjoyed the Legend campaign because it was tough, but wasn't too Champion heavy. I mean, there also needs to be more guns that are anti shield. Without having to manually switch elements.
The only way im taking off arbelest in hard content: Remove the ramp up effect on adaptive munitions, make it deal full damage every shot. This or remove match game
TIL adaptive munitions has a damage ramp up
Disruption Break w/ auto-loading and blinding on either Truthteller or Empty Vessel is pretty nice if you're running a good kinetic. But I agree with what you're saying.
this hints at the true bigger issue, perks dont matter, the difference between a 0/5 you got from a dreg and an adept 5/5 from the raid, is negligent at best
Honestly I think the stand-out issue is Match Game, not necessarily shields. Shields were a reason prior to the subclass synergies with energy types to run an elemental weapon, since while Kinetics have higher base damage, the suffer more against shields. Matching the shield damage type was mostly about getting the extra explosion, which is sort of like a shield-perk in and of itself, and is neat and fine and whatever.
The issue comes in when match game forces you to further restrict your available options, in direct conflict with buildcrafting. Essentially, you are being asked to make a trade off between two do-or-die systems, so there's essentially no compromise between them. Considering being put in that position, it's natural that the one option that gives you an out of that choice, Arbalest, is *incredibly* popular, and will probably remain so rather than improving as various other 3.0 elements come out, as the go-to tool to bypass match game and run whatever build is your favorite or otherwise best suited to the situation, regardless of whatever elemental demands the activity is trying to make of you. If match game was something like 35%-65% DR rather than, what is it around 92-95%? It would be something you definitely *should* keep in mind, but a trade off you could acceptably choose to make to take advantage of Volatile Rounds or some other effect to come in future.
If Bungie doesn't remove shields, they could make it so that when they pop from the matching elemental damage, they give a debuff to enemies around them. Like blind, burn, suppress for the appropriate element. Match game is really annoying and should be replaced with something else.
I like that you commented on the limitation of the energy/kinetic slot. I believe kinetic primaries are going to be seen as generally weaker as the all one element builds become more prevalent with the subclass reworks. I'm glad genesis feels like it has a place as a perk now, but not so much that it just subverts the issue entirely.
Trying to use a kinetic primary (w/o genesis) this season often feels like a lost opportunity cost for the uptime of an energy primary. Exacerbated by arbalest's strength as a special weapon.
You hit the nail on the head with Disruption Break and Shield Disorient. Both had uses that were way too niche.
The shield on Turnabout is too weak but understandably so.
Genesis never caught my eye ever either.
I like arbalest because its easier for someone to understand shields when they're getting back into the game/new to the game. You're totally right tho about the alternatives. I really want more choices in endgame loadouts and not having to STRUGGLE versus chilling with arbalest.
We need more weapon options with adaptive munitions
I actually had an Explosive Personality with Genesis drop during my playthrough of Witch Queen's campaign and used to great success during the final boss fight with those Wizards. Which in turn exploded, causing the enemies around them to take a significant amount of damage or die
I'm just tired of match game and shields being a pain point. Especially since most enemies that are shielded in an enemy group type have ones different to the shields normally used. And having to cover all those types of shields can be done but it can break the build crafting a bit. And no one wants to designate one person for one type of shield or one type of champion and then that person goes down to shenanigans and then your group may be screwed if all of the team isn't covering all bases. Bungie wants us to team work, well unfortunately the player bases likes to be efficient compared to what bungie wants. Back in d1 shields were this much of a problem but now in d2 they are just either annoying or need work
Edit: the new burn modifier I would like more (and maybe others would) is if both the players and the pve enemies got the 50% damage buff. I dont mind being a glass cannon and back in d1 with burns you could burn thru neutral shields during a burn. That might give more weapons and builds to shine especially if they tone down match game a bit.
The funny thing about Arbalest is that it had the ability to override match game modifier since beyond light, but no one cared. It's only after they gave it Anti-barrier that it is now used a lot.
i like the idea of there being a new enemy type introduced into all enemy races that have elemental weaknesses and these would replace colored shields in some instances
Is it just me or should I not need a full mag for my scout in order to break a champs shield. It's really annoying when they pop a shield while I have half a mag and pretty much regardless what I do it'll end up healing at least some.
I have actually been using seventh seraph shotgun with shield disorient for master vow, and it's really really handy
Narrative of Self is the result of a feedback loop between “Separate Self” & Cosmos-🎈
I think it would be cool to have the elements of shields have unique interactions with the elements of our subclasses and weapons. Maybe solar damage increases the explosion damage of breaking a void shield significantly or maybe arc damage against a solar shield causes a blinding effect, something along those lines. Take away the need to match elemental damage to shields and give us unique interactions between the elements
Always hated champions, don’t know why people ever thought they were a good addition. Is this a tangent that will never amount to anything? Absolutely.
What if we could apply adaptive munitions to a primary kinetic weapon via a mod instead of a perk. It could also apply a damage nerf so it's in-line with energy weapons since it's not "kinetic" anymore. Wouldn't apply to exotics because they can't take mods. That leaves Arbalest as the only exotic in slot that can do that job, but opens up options to other weapons that aren't as strong so you can free up the exotic slot. That would make the shield perks more worth hunting for on primaries. You can also use double elemental weapons that match your subclass and have your primary be the audible.
With Stasis weapons and Weapons of Sorrow they're already getting rid of the line in the sand from the kinetic to energy slot. It seems like they want to make the line in the sand primary and special instead.
I’d add Osteo into the ‘kinetic slot pick’ for this season, just because of how garbage legendary auto/SMG overload rounds are. I seem to always run Osteo/Outbreak with a bow of the most numerous shield type. Works for me, but I’ve steered clear of Arbalest just for a change of weaponry, feels nice to dust Outbreak off with it having a mod!
Man I forget how satisfying Lorentz Driver implosions are in PvE
champions are truly breaking our sanity now i'm happy to see
It’s crazy to me that it took this long for people to realize why champions are unfun, especially with how unbalanced Overloads are.
Requiring you to stunlock an enemy that gains stunlock protection and immediately starts healing while being able to 2 shot kill you is just… mind blowing.
@@221Prohunter i never liked them tbh but i think it's just the breaking point as the game evolves and so does build-crafting but champions' continued existence upends that entirely. so people are getting more frustrated because there's more fun to be had, except when champions are present. plus with the legendary campaign, bungie has proven that you can make difficult content without them (though making all enemy races have the light just for more difficulty would be wack storywise)
Turnabout is good on GLs, like the new solar wave frame or Dead Messenger. It's nice for tanky builds. Explosive personality doesn't really need a dmg perk, so turnabout or unrelenting works great there.
I think with the upcoming buff to machine guns next season is going to add a possible contender to the shield issue. All machine guns by design are elemental weapons and hold quite a lot of ammo. While certainly not having the tri-elemental capability of arbalest, they will become more ammo efficient by having more damage and with a decent increase to bosses, they will fell less of a handicap to single target damage which is typically what you want in your heavy slot. Therefore machine guns might be a good solution into being able to deal with elemental shields efficiently. I think this conversation might be worth revisiting after the machine gun buff.
The new direction we’re going with builds is really great but I feel kinetic primaries are losing they’re value a bit because they’re not x element. If anything I think kinetic and stasis weapons should proc the same.
How do you feel about forerunner?
I kept a genesis, shield disorient black armory sniper and used every time I did Zero Hour. It was just so good in it: popping shields, getting ammo back, and disorienting enemies.
"I am not a Witherhoard guy..."
Datto has broken my heart.
I've been concerned about match game meeting up with elemental burns since start of GMs. We try to match our power to burn and use arbi if there's barriers.
But if there's overloads and unstop...arbi no longer makes sense.
Made a adaptive PI for those situations.
My 2 crafted bows still use explosive head. Just too good not to use as there's no range dropoff for Taradiddle, right?
I may craft another Under with adaptive but it takes so dog on much time to get levels up!
1:30 try disruption break on the wave frame gl in PvP (and pair it with an HC or DMT or LW)
In defense of:
Turnabout - the extra shields are pretty good in just about every high-level content related to Witch Queen - nightfalls, solo lost sectors, master missions/seasonal activities. I recommend it on Under Your Skin because a) it's void, b) Land Tank resistance in PvE can increase to 15% on top of can make a huge difference in survivability.
Disruption Break - almost never worth it on anything but barrier champions, but I keep a roll with DB on just about every type of primary in case they're ever included in the seasonal barrier mods because a) I like variety, and b) I loathe Arbalest. But if you can stomach it, just use Arbalest.
Genesis - it does come in handy on anti-barrier primary weapons with low mag sizes or low single mag DPS, as there's nothing worse than getting halfway through a barrier shield and having to reload while his health completely refills. I'm keeping a Genesis+ Vorpal Frozen Orbit in case snipers come back as anti-barrier. Also, not the worst 1st column perk on Heretic or Royal Entry if you get the 2nd perk you're looking for.
Shield Disorient - If it's ever on a primary weapon in the future paired with one of the other shield perks I might be interested. Maybe on a special GL so you don't have to run blinding 'nades, but currently, no. Just no.
I really think the shield system needs to be adjusted so there’s less punishment for not matching shield elements but more benefit for matching it. The first step needs to be less use of Match Game. It doesn’t have to disappear completely, but it needs to be limited to content where there’s mostly only one shield element, so people can build into their synergies and not rely on their teammate to break a particular shield. The acute elemental burns don’t even have to always line up with the shield types. One person opting for better damage to non shields at the cost of shield damage isn’t that bad, but right now Match Game forces builds to be focused on versatility and not synergy, thus the Arbalest problem
EDIT: watched the video and realised I repeated things that Datto said
Make stuff like Turnabout and Genesis into Origin Perks on new sets of guns. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
Great video as always
Arbalest is 100% the reason WHY ive been exclusively farming EVERY weapon that can roll with Adaptive Munitions, surprisingly this perk drops on 3 different burn types so it matches any build/well buid you run "assuming" barrier is the for the weapon of choice, I knew arby was getting the chop when I saw adaptive munitions being stupidly good on the bow,scout, the 2 handcannons and the autorifle/pulserifle.
In the Throne World, the moth's buff counts as an enemy "shield" and interacts with shield related perks. 👍
Match game sucks ass it's not Arby's fault.
so much this
I think the problem is that shields are actually a holdover from Halo... They existed in an environment where there's one type of shield on copious enemies and limited resources to combat them somewhat (typically energy weapons), encouraging the player to scavenge and manage what resources the game gives them on the fly, per encounter. Sure it was a two weapons system, but you had limited ammo and had to pick up weapons from enemies and allies as an encounter progressed (not to mention the use of vehicles).
But now we have multiple shield types and generally static and limited loadouts, making it harder for them to throw shields at us in a meaningful way anymore. They would have to rework shield interactions at a base level to make them interesting and worth engaging with again, the game clearly wanted a team of three all running different elements, but that's always been too much of a hassle in a loot based game where everyone may not have certain options ready.
I'd propose some fixes, but there's so many ways that could be done it would be a whole essay. Make Kinetics break down the elemental affinity of a shield so any energy weapon could break it, all shields break the same to energy, but the enemy is briefly weakened to the energy type their shield was, heck they could even implement a new mod system or ammo powerups that help players deal with elemental shields in different ways...
Agree with all of it. All the shield perks need to be way more meaningful and impactful towards their intended purpose because they are such situational perks. That being said, lets say for example bungie fixed those perks up to a generaly good liking for the whole community. The discussion of more or less shielded enemies remains? I propose a decent inbetween of the "take shields away" or "add more shields" dilemma. Perhaps they can add certain shields that are not just elemental based, for one they can add a kinetic type of shield kinda like the throne world acolytes get, but make it weaker than elemental shields and more widespread, and allow all shield perks to work not only with their matched element but also with kinetic shields. They already have enemy specific shields too, taken vandal bubble, knight black shield, phalanx shield, scorn metal shield, etc these can serve as types of kinetic shields that these perks will then work against with varying HP for a stun etc.
Also another thing, I think we can either make shield disorient be like a elemental capacitor type of perk in the sense of all the perks stated below become element based on the type of element your weapon is (not subclass) or completely take away something like shield disorient and add a similiar built in type of effect inherently within how the interaction of breaking matching or kenetic type shields with different elemental types can create an effect based on the nature of the element (the take away for this if its starts making the game too easy, is make shields HP like 25% more or something) but essentially, breaking a solar shield with a solar weapon causea mini ignition and spreads scorch to other enemies near shield break. With void you van do a weakness/supression effect to near enemies, Arc dmg overcharges their arc shield and causes them to overload and chain lightning and blind very near by foes (kinda like a blinding gl shot, but a little less radius). Breaking kinetic shields with kinetic dmg, staggers shielded enemy and a small radius of nearby enemies. Stasis shields if we ever get stasis shields, we can just have it create and area of effect with slowing.
Those are of course just some ideas I had, pretty rough definitely maybe a lot of holes in them, but felt like it could be an interesting change for shields.