Perhaps one of the most heartfelt videos from Early Music Sources. Admitting to the "mistakes" of the parallel octaves demonstrates the theory and the practice of performing music. One thing is to write and read about the "correct" rules. Another is to get the inspiration flowing and, as already commented, "fit the music." A powerful message indeed.
We should be always careful when speaking about theory, practice and rules. There are not many real “rules” in counterpoint, most of them are suggestions and the real rules were substantial and followed in the practice. We shouldn’t also forget that counterpoint is not composition. This means that there is actually no contradiction between theory and practice and both are not different things: every performance is the result of balancing the reasons of the “ear” and the ones of the “brain”, as Rameau wrote, where the ear leads and the brain controls
_Anima mea liquefacta est!_ This is just incredible! It explains so much about the construction and practice of music at every level, including a micro course in figuring unfigured bass! This is a super-rich harvest of musical knowledge; a terrific video in every way, even in the context of your always wonderful channel (I love the "doubter"/"adversary" in the background!).
Wow! What an incredible video. Getting a “behind the scenes” look at how an early musical work was realized is (perhaps) almost as great a gift as just seeing and/or hearing a performance of the work. It is one thing for a professor to expound upon the techniques which were (theoretically) common when performing a piece (during the era when said piece was composed). It is quite another when the highly educated and very talented performers “pull back the curtain” to reveal not only what they sang or played, but what the supposed rules are, and why they performed a given passage in the manner that they did. This video should be required viewing at every early music conservatory and university music school. Many, many thanks offering such a valuable gift.
Wow! I don't know what to say. This kind of music is very different from what he have nowadays... I know I'm very impressed and humbled by Elam's playing and Jacob's singing. I wish I could play and sing like you guys. Thank you for sharing this experience with us.
I prepared the realization of a few monodies by Barbara Strozzi the other day and as a faithful viewer of this channel, I just had to include an expressive false relation in one case and several instances of crunchy acciaccatura. This video is (as usual) an eye opener, an encouragement to try out more daring and interesting things with continuo. I really enjoyed it.
Undisputed best youtube channel to understand renaissance and baroque music! Thank you sooo much, Elam. You can't imagine how much these videos help me.
Your RUclips channel never ceases to be a goldmine! If I want to keep writing in metaphors, I have to say that your mine is full of all the precious metals: you explain a lot and understandably; you tackle niche topics that no one else on RUclips covers: I feel at home here! I myself study counterpoint and am very much at home with early music. I still love Viennese classical and romantic music as well as music of the 20th and 21st centuries, but good old counterpoint is unbeatable! If one is allowed to suggest topics, I may say that I would be very happy to see a video on the English Cadence.
Elam, seeing you have uploaded one of your wonderful videos always gives me a reason to smile. Some days we all need one of those. Thanks for doing what you do!
Exceptional! All the musicians who, like me, practice the realization of Bass Continuo (figured or not) at a modest level will appreciate the treasure of golden knowledge which is offered here, while measuring the immense gap which separates us from Elam Rotten and his team!
I absolutely love this format, taking a performance and doing a detailed breakdown offers amazing insights into so many aspects of the original composition, and your journey as artists to bring it to life . I hope we see more like this from time to time.
I can't say I managed to follow all the details, but I did like the realisation. Including the temporary "mind melt" (mens liquefacta) of the G/C# jump. As always, the great care in preparing these videos is much appreciated. Thank you, Elam!
If you look at mid-20th century jazz performance of a ‘standard’ song, especially if you listen to song takes on recording re-releases, what you’ve done is indeed improvisation. Some music really loses its heart if performed the same way every performance - this current version brings the music to life.
Thanks for this very illuminating video. As I got more into listening to Monteverdi years ago I became fascinated, and surprised, with how he would change rhythm throughout a piece. I did not recall hearing this in Bach. These two composers powerfully contrast with each other.
Thank you so much for the work you do - thanks for enriching the knowledge of even us half-trained amateurs. I've been binging your videos lately, and probably need to watch the "cadences" one another half dozen times, but it's very much worth it.
Great! Thank you very much. I adore and love Monteverdi’s music so much, but I never bothered to analyse and understand the musical structures and methods behind. This was a fantastic first step into it.
Very good. I have Monteverdi in my small collection of CD's. Bought it after hearing it on the classical public radio channel. In theory, as far as I can tell, many things are possible.
Changes:"....Your mood or stamina..." as a singer who considers technique, I think that it is easy to underestimate the fact that depending on any given day, one's voice might have any or some of the following: age, fluidity, rapidity, access of range, focus, flexibility. This can be observed when looking at the recordings of any wonderful singer. Maria Callas on trills for example. It is undeniable that Mme. Callas had a considerable trill. However, whether it was working or not on the night concerned would have been taken on board and this would be incorporated into the performance as a whole.
Wow. I enjoyed this so much. Sending this video to my voice instructor. We are both organists as well. I think we will have fun playing for each other!
Another simply wonderful episode, even though it deals with this newfangled idea of "polyphony". Lunch offer stands open. Cheers from overcast Vienna, Scott
Beautifully sang and accompanied!! I tried to separate the organ harmonies with my attention, on some places it merges very organically (no attack sound). But with training one starts to hear it. At first I thought I’d hear it better on the harpsichord but actually there is so much none melodic clicking in the sound that the organ in comparison is much purer/easier to hear.
I'm mostly self-taught in theory so if someone can clarify if in the basso continuo manual, is the second point (perfect 5th to 6th) in order to avoid a tritone or another harsh sound? [ around 4:02 ]
Lol, came to point that out. There are a couple engraving spoofs here and there too, but nothing to detract from such a wonderful interpretation and analysis
Interesting that they considered octaves between tenor & keyboard a problem. I would have thought that the difference in timbre would be enough to make this a non-problem. Also: adding a top voice in the continuo would obscure the main melody. Certainly when you use an organ as continuo instrument.
@@EarlyMusicSources i find tricky if it is tricky for you to answer ;), but i am curious since you definitely know what to do. The parallele octaves were a kind of cadencial highlight of the melody, so an interesting exception
@@EarlyMusicSources the voice leading there is polemic, because for organ sounds good, but as vocal writing the 5ˋ sounds like parallel ? actually maybe the contrary: for voices the parallels could be solved other way, while the orgel cannot exactly tell wich voice is playing what
@@emanuel_soundtrack Now I see what you mean. In any intabulation of polyphony you may find things that may be seem like parallels, it is part of the language. If the organ part was constantly in three parts, for example, something like this would seem like parallels. But since it's written (as in many written-out examples) in a free way, where voices can come and go, this is not really parallels. My idea was that the G in the tenor (when the bass changes to C) is a "new entry", imitating what the soprano did just before. I hope it's clear!
So brave of you to analyse your own performance! The point about not doubling the soloist in octaves cannot be stressed strongly enough. I've heard SO MANY performances and recordings with octave doubling, all the time. It's awful and offends the ear to no end. It's especially bad when the continuo doubles a soprano an octave below. I've heard people say that they do this because doubling the soprano at unison pitch would mean playing really high chords, which apparently interferes with the soprano. Even if this is true, I simply cannot accept that doubling at an octave below is a better solution. In any case, I suspect that the use of some shitty box organ with only 8' bourdon and no 8' principal might be the cause of the perceived interference.
Parallel octaves between a soloist and one of the upper voices of the continuo accompaniment are the least bad ones. They are almost unnoticeable. Continuo players do them all the time. It's unreasonable to expect the continuo player to look at all the upper voices all the time. As long as he is not doubling the tenor an octave above for the entire phrase, I don't think it is a big deal at all. Also, leaving out the cantizans in the Phygian cadence is not a big deal, especially if the soloist sings it. That leap by the diminshed fifth (G -> C#) seems like a slightly more serious error, but would I have noticed it if you didn't point it out? Very likely not... One can very often find such leaps in later music, like Bach and Handel, and it sounds great to me. Is it authentic for Monteverdi? Would it sound good to a listener from Monteverdi's time? I don't know. Artusi would have hated your performance for sure, I know that much... :D
I fully agree with you and I would add that it also depends on the instrument of Basso continuo you play : on a lute/archiluth which was often used to accompany a voice at the time of Monteverdi, Barbara Strozzi, you can play a chord, including the upper string, so actually doubling the tenor at the octave, on the strong beats of the bar or of the text, with no real harm - even more when the Viola da Gamba is sustaining the bass note. My message is that the "rules of Basso Continuo" should not apply the same to the different instrument of the continuo.
I have a dumb question. Is this channel under the discipline of “musicology”? Like what subject would a person study in order to find more things like this?
![[DRAGON BALL LEGENDS REVEALS ＆ STUFF] LEGENDS FESTIVAL 2024 Special Edition Part 1](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mV5bGIswTtQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Perhaps one of the most heartfelt videos from Early Music Sources. Admitting to the "mistakes" of the parallel octaves demonstrates the theory and the practice of performing music. One thing is to write and read about the "correct" rules. Another is to get the inspiration flowing and, as already commented, "fit the music." A powerful message indeed.
Always remember that there are no rules of music, only rules of music exercises.
Often I've been thinking : sometimes you might have to choose between writing music or getting your exam. ;-)
We should be always careful when speaking about theory, practice and rules. There are not many real “rules” in counterpoint, most of them are suggestions and the real rules were substantial and followed in the practice. We shouldn’t also forget that counterpoint is not composition. This means that there is actually no contradiction between theory and practice and both are not different things: every performance is the result of balancing the reasons of the “ear” and the ones of the “brain”, as Rameau wrote, where the ear leads and the brain controls
We need more videos like This!!!
"it's not a mistake if it fit the music"
- Elam Rotem, 2022
_Anima mea liquefacta est!_ This is just incredible! It explains so much about the construction and practice of music at every level, including a micro course in figuring unfigured bass! This is a super-rich harvest of musical knowledge; a terrific video in every way, even in the context of your always wonderful channel (I love the "doubter"/"adversary" in the background!).
What an enjoyable way to spend 20 minutes. Excellent.
Wow! What an incredible video. Getting a “behind the scenes” look at how an early musical work was realized is (perhaps) almost as great a gift as just seeing and/or hearing a performance of the work. It is one thing for a professor to expound upon the techniques which were (theoretically) common when performing a piece (during the era when said piece was composed). It is quite another when the highly educated and very talented performers “pull back the curtain” to reveal not only what they sang or played, but what the supposed rules are, and why they performed a given passage in the manner that they did. This video should be required viewing at every early music conservatory and university music school. Many, many thanks offering such a valuable gift.
Wow! I don't know what to say. This kind of music is very different from what he have nowadays... I know I'm very impressed and humbled by Elam's playing and Jacob's singing. I wish I could play and sing like you guys. Thank you for sharing this experience with us.
I prepared the realization of a few monodies by Barbara Strozzi the other day and as a faithful viewer of this channel, I just had to include an expressive false relation in one case and several instances of crunchy acciaccatura. This video is (as usual) an eye opener, an encouragement to try out more daring and interesting things with continuo. I really enjoyed it.
Undisputed best youtube channel to understand renaissance and baroque music! Thank you sooo much, Elam. You can't imagine how much these videos help me.
YOU DID WHAT never fails to make me laugh. One of my favorite videos on the channel!
Highest quality in every respect: content, analysis, …, video quality! 👍🏻👏🏻💪🏻🙏🏻
Your RUclips channel never ceases to be a goldmine! If I want to keep writing in metaphors, I have to say that your mine is full of all the precious metals: you explain a lot and understandably; you tackle niche topics that no one else on RUclips covers: I feel at home here! I myself study counterpoint and am very much at home with early music. I still love Viennese classical and romantic music as well as music of the 20th and 21st centuries, but good old counterpoint is unbeatable!
If one is allowed to suggest topics, I may say that I would be very happy to see a video on the English Cadence.
Elam, seeing you have uploaded one of your wonderful videos always gives me a reason to smile. Some days we all need one of those. Thanks for doing what you do!
Thank you so much.
Thanks!
You are always limpid and interesting ! Thank you ! :)
Very nice video !
Thank you Elam and Jacob for another great video and petformance!
A perfect team....... creating a heart-meltingly beautiful version of this piece! Thx for this episode!
Wonderful!!! Thank you!! ❤️!
"You did WHAT?" So funny ! ! ! Rector, thank you for this WONDERFUL, INFORMATIVE, BEAUTIFUL, INTIMATE video offering. Bravi !
It’s very meaningful that we get to see all the details and arguments for the interpretative decision making, thanks so much.
Exceptional! All the musicians who, like me, practice the realization of Bass Continuo (figured or not) at a modest level will appreciate the treasure of golden knowledge which is offered here, while measuring the immense gap which separates us from Elam Rotten and his team!
12:04 had me cracking up! 😂
I absolutely love this format, taking a performance and doing a detailed breakdown offers amazing insights into so many aspects of the original composition, and your journey as artists to bring it to life .
I hope we see more like this from time to time.
A wonderful and extremely informative video. Thanks for a great performance and even greater explanation.
I am a Mariachi songwriter. Your videos teach me other ways to think about music. I appreciate your work!
Grazie mille!! tutto molto interessante!
This was an awesome video. Supreme quality! :) also, you guys are fantastic performers
Thank you so much for this video and your great recording! Jacobs voice is great and so is your interpretation!
Fascinating. it's a joy to have a glimpse at your thoughts and process.
This is a unique video: never before have all these ideas, practical points of information and useful insights been brought together. Many thanks!
I was clapping alone in my house. So great! 😁
I can't say I managed to follow all the details, but I did like the realisation. Including the temporary "mind melt" (mens liquefacta) of the G/C# jump.
As always, the great care in preparing these videos is much appreciated. Thank you, Elam!
Thank you very much, this is really instructive and so inspiring.
Genius illuminates everything.
If you look at mid-20th century jazz performance of a ‘standard’ song, especially if you listen to song takes on recording re-releases, what you’ve done is indeed improvisation. Some music really loses its heart if performed the same way every performance - this current version brings the music to life.
Thanks for this very illuminating video. As I got more into listening to Monteverdi years ago I became fascinated, and surprised, with how he would change rhythm throughout a piece. I did not recall hearing this in Bach. These two composers powerfully contrast with each other.
Great job as usual! I love your videos
Thank you so much for the work you do - thanks for enriching the knowledge of even us half-trained amateurs. I've been binging your videos lately, and probably need to watch the "cadences" one another half dozen times, but it's very much worth it.
Great! Thank you very much. I adore and love Monteverdi’s music so much, but I never bothered to analyse and understand the musical structures and methods behind. This was a fantastic first step into it.
Very good. I have Monteverdi in my small collection of CD's. Bought it after hearing it on the classical public radio channel. In theory, as far as I can tell, many things are possible.
Changes:"....Your mood or stamina..." as a singer who considers technique, I think that it is easy to underestimate the fact that depending on any given day, one's voice might have any or some of the following: age, fluidity, rapidity, access of range, focus, flexibility. This can be observed when looking at the recordings of any wonderful singer. Maria Callas on trills for example. It is undeniable that Mme. Callas had a considerable trill. However, whether it was working or not on the night concerned would have been taken on board and this would be incorporated into the performance as a whole.
Wow. I enjoyed this so much. Sending this video to my voice instructor. We are both organists as well. I think we will have fun playing for each other!
This is gold
Another simply wonderful episode, even though it deals with this newfangled idea of "polyphony".
Lunch offer stands open. Cheers from overcast Vienna, Scott
I have no idea what's going on, but i can feel the quality 16:48 !
Beautifully sang and accompanied!! I tried to separate the organ harmonies with my attention, on some places it merges very organically (no attack sound). But with training one starts to hear it. At first I thought I’d hear it better on the harpsichord but actually there is so much none melodic clicking in the sound that the organ in comparison is much purer/easier to hear.
RIP Richard Taruskin. : ( Music historian/author/teacher. His book Music From the Earliest Notations to the 16th Century is a fantastic read. : )
Ego liquefactuus sum ❤️❤️
Bravi!
For easy of relistening you could ad stops or time stamps at the start of the recordings playback.
I'm mostly self-taught in theory so if someone can clarify if in the basso continuo manual, is the second point (perfect 5th to 6th) in order to avoid a tritone or another harsh sound? [ around 4:02 ]
8:45: dot missing on that last "e" in the written out tenor.
Lol, came to point that out. There are a couple engraving spoofs here and there too, but nothing to detract from such a wonderful interpretation and analysis
S
W
E
E
T
!!!
Interesting that they considered octaves between tenor & keyboard a problem. I would have thought that the difference in timbre would be enough to make this a non-problem. Also: adding a top voice in the continuo would obscure the main melody. Certainly when you use an organ as continuo instrument.
The next episode: "How we realized Die Kunst der Fugue" by J.S. Bach
This music as it was written and inerpretation very similar to today jazz.
I love the way you style and animate your videos!! What animating/editing tools do you use to create these top-notch videos?
There is no tenor of whom I am aware who can sing diminutions better than Jacob Lawrence.
I agree!
Yay!
This is a pretty sexy monody! I mean he did also write Poppea so it makes sense
😍😍😍
quam ob rem hoc ex Latinum in Anglicum converso tempus praeritum perfectum tempus praesens fit?
Is the Q&A video still coming? 😁
Do you have something interesting to say about the Es Major /Cm bar on „comlumba??
is this a trick question?
@@EarlyMusicSources i find tricky if it is tricky for you to answer ;), but i am curious since you definitely know what to do. The parallele octaves were a kind of cadencial highlight of the melody, so an interesting exception
@@emanuel_soundtrack I might know what you mean, but tell me exactly what do you refer to so I could answer precisely
@@EarlyMusicSources the voice leading there is polemic, because for organ sounds good, but as vocal writing the 5ˋ sounds like parallel ? actually maybe the contrary: for voices the parallels could be solved other way, while the orgel cannot exactly tell wich voice is playing what
@@emanuel_soundtrack Now I see what you mean. In any intabulation of polyphony you may find things that may be seem like parallels, it is part of the language. If the organ part was constantly in three parts, for example, something like this would seem like parallels. But since it's written (as in many written-out examples) in a free way, where voices can come and go, this is not really parallels. My idea was that the G in the tenor (when the bass changes to C) is a "new entry", imitating what the soprano did just before. I hope it's clear!
Where can I hear more of Jacob Lawrence singing?
So brave of you to analyse your own performance! The point about not doubling the soloist in octaves cannot be stressed strongly enough. I've heard SO MANY performances and recordings with octave doubling, all the time. It's awful and offends the ear to no end.
It's especially bad when the continuo doubles a soprano an octave below. I've heard people say that they do this because doubling the soprano at unison pitch would mean playing really high chords, which apparently interferes with the soprano. Even if this is true, I simply cannot accept that doubling at an octave below is a better solution. In any case, I suspect that the use of some shitty box organ with only 8' bourdon and no 8' principal might be the cause of the perceived interference.
Is this on spotify?
No, but it is on RUclips:
ruclips.net/video/7IyAA1ZeA8Y/видео.htmlsi=CT_TFAi17Q-00kny
what tuning was the organ in?
1/6 comma meantone
Parallel octaves between a soloist and one of the upper voices of the continuo accompaniment are the least bad ones. They are almost unnoticeable. Continuo players do them all the time. It's unreasonable to expect the continuo player to look at all the upper voices all the time. As long as he is not doubling the tenor an octave above for the entire phrase, I don't think it is a big deal at all. Also, leaving out the cantizans in the Phygian cadence is not a big deal, especially if the soloist sings it.
That leap by the diminshed fifth (G -> C#) seems like a slightly more serious error, but would I have noticed it if you didn't point it out? Very likely not... One can very often find such leaps in later music, like Bach and Handel, and it sounds great to me. Is it authentic for Monteverdi? Would it sound good to a listener from Monteverdi's time? I don't know.
Artusi would have hated your performance for sure, I know that much... :D
??????
it doesn't matter if it's noticable, it matters if a voice disappears because of the parallel
I fully agree with you and I would add that it also depends on the instrument of Basso continuo you play : on a lute/archiluth which was often used to accompany a voice at the time of Monteverdi, Barbara Strozzi, you can play a chord, including the upper string, so actually doubling the tenor at the octave, on the strong beats of the bar or of the text, with no real harm - even more when the Viola da Gamba is sustaining the bass note. My message is that the "rules of Basso Continuo" should not apply the same to the different instrument of the continuo.
Would you subscribe that your style of playing continuo is more on the minimalist/ ensemble oriented side?
I have a dumb question. Is this channel under the discipline of “musicology”? Like what subject would a person study in order to find more things like this?
Yes, musicology. Specifically, historical musicology.
Or, if you're studying as a performer, a historical performance program.
It might also be described as “musical composition” focused on early music depending on where you live.