How NOT to get sucked into other people's power games
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- Welcome to the dreaded Drama Triangle.
This nasty but gravitational dynamic is why your relationships feel stuck, disempowering or downright infuriating... and how to break free.
Awareness of this system of common psychological games - played by yourself and others - can help you put a stop to toxic patterns, improve your relationship and communication skills, and just generally feel more in control.
I would love to hear your thoughts. Please hit me up in the comments!
#drama #dramatriangle #psychology #psychologytricks #psychologytips #therapy #therapist #therapistadvice #relationships #couples #communicationskills #rescuer #persecutor #powergame #powerplay #mindgames #toxic #toxicrelationships #powerdynamics #officepolitics
Never take criticism from somebody you wouldn’t take advice from.
I like that!
@@user-yv4fp4do8m No, that quote’s been around for a long time. I can’t find who said it first, but it wasn’t from a podcast
dead right
Yeah this is so true. Also if the person is your frenemy or a narcissist…they’re likely going to project their own shortcomings onto you.
love this!!!
This is why we need to be taught how to set boundaries while we are young. It doesn’t come naturally.
we also need to be taught true, clear communication! and how to receive criticism. so many skills that should be taught in every school!
Once you finally understand what a boundary actually is, you also understand that nobody in your life ever wanted you to learn any.
I think setting boundaries does come naturally. Children are more than happy to say no. This is why it's important to explain to children why something needs to happen. They don't understand what's going on, they just know a boundary is being crossed and they are powerless to stop it. If parents just bulldoze their kids when they say no, they will learn that maintaining boundaries is wrong and gets them in trouble.
The choice not to teach them is deliberate by the parents and teachers the child meets. It's easier to step all over kids than to control them while also respecting boundaries. Without boundaries, it's easier for these abusers to take advantage of the child
This hit hard.@@JeredtheShy
You're never going to get anywhere being around people who are manipulative. A good boss looks to fix things, not assign blame. You stand up for yourself calmly and don't let people get away with lies and manipulations, and if they insist on continuing, you find work elsewhere. Life's too short for games. You can either put your energy into those games or you can put it into making a difference in your role. Also no one else can make you feel small unless you let them.
Everyone is constantly involved in power relations. They can't be avoided. Even the two sides of your self are in power relations.
The very best you can do is recognize it and face it directly.
I worked with someone in a management group for our building. Early on, I felt I couldn't trust her (she love bombed hard).
Ultimately, I left the group- I wasn't getting paid for putting up with her antics. No one would've believed how bad she really was- she had such a nice lady facade.
I did point out to others she was very controlling, so they could protect themselves a little.
There was zero good to be gained from confronting her as her manipulative ways was her entire persona that she enjoyed being. I would have just gotten backlash.
Sometimes people can't leave the job or get away from bosses because they have a family to feed or no job market is non existent easier said than done. This video tells how to change a negative dynamic around.
@@nonasmith2405 Anyone can absolutely quit any job. We hold transitory things too dearly and sell our lives too cheaply. If your boss believes that you can't possibly quit, you are seriously screwed.
@@nonasmith2405 it really doesn't. Whatever you do in the short term find a different source of income in the long term. This one isn't stable.
For autistic people, it's natural to be unaware of these dynamics and say the awkward thing. Unfortunately, people tend to dislike it when you don't allow them (intentionally or unintentionally) to play the role they are most comfortable in. Great video!
I'm on the spectrum 😭 I'm usually stuck in abusive situations
@@tapiwashendelane518 I'm sorry. I used to be like that as well. I think it has more to do with taking people at face value / trusting them when they shouldn't be trusted. When you can't read subtle emotional cues, it's easier to get taken advantage of. It helps to be with other neurodivergent people, if you can.
@@tapiwashendelane518 same.
@@alliem.182 no, this does not at all help. i am high functioning aspergers with add, and i have tried having friendships with other autistic or borderliners, because they are the only ones who can, THROUGH DOMINANCE, be in a relationship with me. however it is this dominance and abuse, that do not work for me. so i am mostly alone, but nonverbal social cues are like a different language completely.
Went out with an autistic girl. She would be quite rude with the 'just say what we see' routine, but I notice she would be triggered and upset when I did the same and made relatively minor observations. I realise this is a sample of one, but I wonder if other autistics have this double standard.
When you're dealing with basically decent people, you can use this framework to problem solve and reduce the drama. However, when the bully is scheming, manipulative and evil spirited, your continued efforts will only cause you to sink deeper into the quicksand. If your superiors don't recognize the damaging behaviors of this person, you need to remove yourself from their circle of influence or they will target you for destruction.
Right
Exactly. It's not going to work with someone who is actually abusive.
i got very good at speaking out to my abusive partner, but eventually i came to realize it did absolutely nothing in the long term. and that's how i realized i needed to leave.
true
true you can only leave in those situations unfortunately. What do people recommend for someone who is forced to keep that person in their life like a baby momma and everytime you see her it’s a headache of getting the kids or even texting her is but you miss them so much
This only works when the other person is not a actual monster.
Yep! That is the truth!
Yup, this is if the person is a NORMAL human WITH NORMAL EMOTIONAL SWINGS... Not fit for personality disorders.
nice modeling of persecutor and victim all in one.
@@shiny_x3 Um, no. Not every person on the planet can be worked with in the ways Betwixt said in the video. Trump for example, would LOVE to shove you into the victim spot, and pretend you're the one in the attacker spot. You can't just curtly dismiss what nokateno said. I won't assume your intentions, but for anyone else looking/reading these comments, you might come off as if you're projecting.
When they are you can mirror them. It will scare them and give them a taste of their own medicine.
I was verbally and emotionally abused by a boss. I was 44, and it had never happened to me before. I didn’t tell anyone about it until later because I was ashamed. One day my coworkers witnessed it. A week later he took me outside to a back alley in order to yell at me in private. At one point he came so close to me, pointing a finger at my face, I thought he might physically attack me. I quit on the spot. He made me leave so he could tell my coworkers that I would be leaving the company and that it was a mutual decision. I didn’t realize the repercussions of the abuse until later. I was having panic attacks every time my phone rang, and I was very afraid of my next boss. Thank god it didn’t happen again. It’s not always a role we play or slide into over and over. Sometimes you just end up working for a bad guy.
And/or conversely somehow you usually encounter really good people.
Yeah, that was a narcissist for sure though.
omg that sucks, my heart goes to you and I really really hope those people will have karma
Never agree to go to a back alley alone with anyone for any reason.
@@helenhighwater5313absolutely no argument there.
Yeah this approach doesn't seem to take into account people who are actually abusive. Just telling them what you want is not going to work, it's not safe. I think she should have added a caveat to that effect.
The older I get, the less time I have for the power trips of other people. The word “No”, isn’t a dirty word, and not engaging with drama queens is good thing. 😊
your usage of drama queens made me chuckle😂
works well except at work where it could get nasty
Might work with some people. Unfortunately, some perpetrators are relentless and just try different ways to upset you. Their sole purpose is to upset you, they never want to work anything out or have an honest discussion. That's the huge flaw in your tactic. Imagine growing up in a family that was that dysfunctional? The only rational thing to do is leave to save yourself and don't look back.
In such situations, like you said leaving is the most rational thing to do. However her advice isn't flawed, It just isn't applicable to extreme situations.
Exactly. This solution doesn't acknowledge the enormous amount of narcisscists who seek out power roles to feed off other people's energy by causing conflict. This term is thrown around a lot, but if you've ever been in this type of relationship/trauma bond, no further explanation is needed. Gray rock is the only way to go.
@@arlenebrown2184 Exactly so. And leave the arena so as not to be thrown to the lions again, for their unholy amusement. However, I truly appreciated the insights into the three roles we can fall into. They're usually unconscious, so bringing them to consciousness will liberate many from knee jerk responses; and as our video host said, we are stronger than we think, and can find our own way out. The true vampires, who feed off negative emotions, can only be vanquished with a very good impression of a human-shaped void; anything they say or do goes nowhere; no reaction, no emotion, no involvement, or attachment; just pure detachment and indifference. And no forwarding address.
@@arlenebrown2184People say that narcissism is thrown around but honestly I feel like we are underestimating how wide narcissistic behavior is. Maybe they aren’t all narcissists yet but folks are working hard to get there
That's literally not what the video is about though. Narcissists and other types of people youre describing can/will play all roles in that triangle on a dime, meaning that this advice doesn't necessarily apply because those kinds of people switch up so fast for power. This is talking about normal people who fall into cycles. A narcissist will be a victim then a helper then the persecutor willfully by their own choice constantly because they aren't PART of A "drama cycle" that they unknowingly fit into, like shes describing, but they literally are their own drama sphere. Without the influence of others. This advice doesn't logically seem like it would work against people very very explicitly trying to do harm or be evil because again that's not a person caught in a cycle, thats someone perpetuating their own cycle they created onto you
Did just that, autistic, got fired from every job I ever had. The companies folded with in a year of me leaving. Didn't have anyone to actually do the work any more. Retired now living well and happy.
I am glad you survived and thrived. Often businesses have an employer who is the linch pin performs and understands the company, plays a critical role, knows a lot and is overlooked, never rises above. When they leave for any reason the entire business is in chaos they don't know where keys are, who to call if something breaks, how the file system works, key things management overlooks because it is a hive mind.
Did you find a good job? Or you just kept moving from one job to another all the time? I’m also in the spectrum and worry I might never stay in a job longer than a year.
@@yuegodelg from what I understand in this modern age, it is actually pretty good to not stay at a job for more than a few years. Longer u stay at a company the longer ur gonna have to do more and get paid less than the new hire
@@yuegodelg I’m not on the spectrum (at least I don’t have a diagnosis, I might be ND though). I’ve worked in 6 companies. I always left because of a mix of toxic environment and terrible project management. My record is my current company, I’ve been there for 2 years and 3 months. It’s still not great (2nd worst project management I’ve seen so far) but they let me work from home almost as such as I want, companies give decent benefits and overall the coworkers are nice. Several times I strongly felt like quitting, but I know it’s like that everywhere and I might get myself into a worse work environment.
It doesn’t matter if you switch often when you start your career, that’s actually the only way you’ll get promotions and raises. But when you get to mid-level, try to settle for a few years for companies that gives you freedom and limited responsibilities and stay in an IC (individual contributor, as opposed to managers) role.
@@KristenZianourry2015 That is true, but a few years looks a lot better on a resume than just a single year. A single year or less may concern employers and make them think that you're not reliable enough. The job hiring process is expensive as it is for employers, so they would want someone who has history of staying to a position consistently for at least 2-3 yrs.
I’ve just realized why workplaces end up hating me. When people there, especially managers, are used to this triangle, and you refuse to engage with it, it’s no wonder they might think “your not a team player” even if your using everything you have to control yourself and try to communicate effectively with your coworkers and bosses
Happened to me in my last job so I can relate so much.
Lol I just got accused of not being a team player after drawing a boundary at work. In the process of finding a new job now
I don’t talk about people behind their backs is a great boundary to set. If a person can’t have a conversation with you with that boundary in place, they are a chaos spawn point.
Yes. This simple boundary works all kinds of magic.
Mhm. I feel like intentions matter. I often talk with my friends first when I worry about a mutual friend, simply because I often don't have the full picture. It never lead to anything malicious.
@@TheFren I think insulting people without a particular purpose is what sets "talking behind someone's back" or gossiping, apart from just talking about someone to someone else. Worrying about someone else, or venting off your own negative emotions/experiences, or trying to find advice on how to resolve the issue(s) with whomever you're talking about, those are all productive things that you're trying to do and talking abt someone is just an instrument to get to that greater goal.
I quit jobs once I notice that I am caught into such environments. My spirit cannot stand such environment
Yes! Me too!
Yesssss
Same here. Motel cleaning is the worst, never had a good boss
Too many people don't know what spirit is. I can't figure out what animates them.
@@theobserver9131We all know, just very few of us are privileged and able enough (within our circumstances) to actually be allowed to breach the surface anymore and let our spirits breathe. We're being drowned en masse by the great whte (as in the social construct that demands every human being be stripped of culture and humanity and fall in line under penalty of d3ath, not the color) parasite
Narcissists, disrespectul people and other types of people with nasty behaviour DO NOT deserve my energy, or my attention or my dedication. This is what I have learned by researching about healthy boundaries to protect myself and my nervous system.🌻
can u expand how you incorporate exiting or not entering the DT with avoiding narc etc. behavior, esp. at the workplace?
That is why I divorced my family. When this is what you have know since birth, it takes a while to catch on.
@@Stess-j4n yes. i intimately understand. took decades for me to catch on.
You'd probably be surprised to know that every single person holds narcissistic traits, some just more than others. So it's good to be aware of other people, but self-awareness is also key. Many severe narcissists don't even know they are.
@@VBoo459 malignant and covert narcs have no clue about their narcissism correct, and yes we all have narc traits. i agree.
So I have been in the victim role, so I decided to stand up for myself in the most respectful and professional way as possible. Well what happened? you may ask. They retaliated! And it got worse. So I took the high road and did not engage. Did not respond to any passive aggressive behavior. And they stopped and now they can’t look me in the eye.
They will try over and over.
These types of people often target victims that grew up in a toxic family dynamic and have big problems of doing what you did.
Yes but at a certain point you have to decide if you want to stay a victim or move forward and many people want to stay in their victim role because that is the thing they know the best
You are so right! I was so afraid of 'conflict' I would never speak up and I could never have done what she did.
@JohnSmith-lk8cy I had periods of fear of conflict in my life. It's difficult to know exactly how to respond to these people, because if you don't do it the right right way you risk getting in a lot of trouble or giving them an excuse to bully you even more. I studied psychology as a hobby and that have helped me a lot. I also use tarot cards to help me understand people's real intentions.
@@realglutenfreeWhat a convenient excuse to discard victims. Blame them for their own victimization and say they're asking for it.
@@realglutenfreebecause they don't know better. They don't know how to handle the situation in a different way, they didn't see it in happening in positive ways before. Its not their fault, but they have to find out.
"Say the awkward thing" is generally what you should do, as it's usually the thing you've been avoiding because it was too scary. It's the end to the cycle of avoidance that results in the repeated frustrations and resentments.
I simply opt out of people. I only work with people I want to work with.
@jgk-bp8sx Yes thank you, I do feel very privileged to be working with those I work with.
This makes a lot of sense. Honesty and being real with people usually evaporates a lot of this game that people play. There are no persecutors, victims, and heroes, only real people with fears, needs, strengths, and desires.
I’ve had the odd experience many times over of being perceived as weak by bullies when in fact I have tremendous internal strength. Their behavior is so odd to me that I become rather deer in the headlights. And they jump on their prey. It’s so absurd to me but I’ve finally realized that you have to stand up for yourself assertively enough that it gets their attention.
same things happens to me, but when I become assertive in line with the amount of grade of bullying then I am the one labelled unfit for work.
Classic bait and switch manipulation. @@zekaay
I started using lines like "based on your logic", "I'm sorry you feel that way", "I'm sure you're right" and whoever is 'trying' me typically backs off. I of course say those lines while looking them directly in the eyes with a lot of conviction in my eyes
This is how I survived high school. When guys tried poking and provoking me, all I could see was a caveman-simpleton who never knew the beauty and strength of sincere care and support, or of unified action between boys. I recall Stephen Fry talking somewhere about how disempowering it is to look upon others with pity.
Yes, with bullies logic and reason don't work. You need to show a healthy level of aggression. Mature talks like in this video will only result in temporary relief because they'd eventually go back in their old ways ensnaring you in an endless loop of reminding them of your boundaries. Ultimately, they will be who they are and as long as you are existing within their circle, you'd be affected by their toxicity.
I've said the honest thing, the awkward thing and every other kind of thing. Sometimes we get stuck with drama addicts in situations where it's incredibly difficult to remove ourselves. Now I try and sniff them out sooner and keep to myself a lot more often.
Being awkward IS not playing into their power games. They don't like that so they gotta smear campaign and DARVO you into believing it's your fault.
Yeah, some of the perpetrators will ignore your attempts to be assertive or roll their eyes.
DARVO?
@@sergioalcantar3290
Deny
Attack
Reverse Victim and Offender
Saying the awkward, not being awkward. You are right though, I calmly asked our resident narcissist not to intrude on my personal space! 6weeks later, he's still acting like a victim and trying to isolate me from everyone. I'm just pretending he doesn't exist. Maybe when he realises the well is dry he might leave me alone, although I doubt it, because I have the upper hand, they hate that.
@@CB19087 You are right. It's not about what you are, but about the subjective interpretation of the person watching your normal human reactions to their unsufferable bullsh*t.
Sorry about what that person is doing to you. No one deserves that.
I quit the world several years ago. I got tired of BS. I used to get involved in things (like jobs, etc....). but there is ALWAYS someone playing bs power games. I refuse to play. First sign of disrespect or drama or insanity, and I just leave. I will not engage. I love the look on their faces when they realize they have no power over me.
I did too 26 years ago.
"I quit the world" Love that.
Exactly. That's the reason I'm a freelance artist. Don't need to deal with BS.
I came back to society a little over a year ago. It has been nothing but misery. Where I used to be able to focus on the beauty of God I'm stuck surrounded by toxic situations and abusive mentalities, barely paying bills and feeling more disempowered by the day. People can only hurt you if you live around people. I know the outcome of this is likely suicide and at this point I am fine with that too. I don't feel like I ever quit the world, but it gets further and further away.
@@kiddiedeathpool Is getting back out of society an option for you? I hope you can find a place for you! This Earth is so freakin amazing....it's a shame it's polluted with toxic humans. There are still some less or un populated places left.
My best situation in life has been as a live in caretaker for peoples properties, and they spend a lot of time away....and even if they are home, the property has more than one livable space on it.....
It's a sad fact that nice decent hardworking people who are well liked by their colleagues will get bullied by their boss. A lot of bullying is envy and fear of a loss of power and control. Unfortunately the modern office work culture is toxic and full of psychopathic bosses desperate for bootlicking subordinates.
What's interesting about this story is that it doesn't always work out the way it did for you. Perhaps in that meeting it worked. But long term the other people have to be willing to alter their behaior for the improved relationship dynamic to maintain itself, otherwise you are doing all the mental & emotional load for the others by constantly having to stand up to them, which makes you de facto a victim wherein you still bear more than your share of burden. Not every bully can be dealt with that way. Especially not long term. One offs yes, but long term relationships with people like this destroy you & it's best to opt out by leaving.
Exactly. Some of us have learned through unfortunate experiences how to identify those who have redeeming qualities v. those who are bent on harming others.
Best reply here. Thank you. I was thinking the same thing... "Wow, that was easy for her. Too bad it rarely goes like that."
yeah this therapist has not been up against true bullies
Even if you don’t engage some of these people will get bored enough to poison you, steal from you at work or mess something up and then blame you.
Yeas and the smearing you to others is the worst!
That small breath is the key imo. Either they can't stand the one second of silence and continue talking themselves into a hole or that second is used for both parties to think rather than react.
Yessss
I thought so but they sometimes they just take silence as submission, admission of guilt, et cetera
This is why i prefer not to deal with people. I dont hate people, i just prefer them not to be around.
I would rephrase your strategy for dealing with drama; in your case dealing with a hypercritical, tyrant boss, from saying the awkward thing to saying the disarming thing. That is what you actually did. By taking the initiative; in a calm measured manner, you disarmed your boss. She was ready to play the her usual role and make you the scapegoat, but you cut her off before she could start and you were able to force her to have a rational conversation. Bravo.
With some people what you did might earn you new respect and a better relationship with your boss going forward. However, there are some vindictive people who would resent that you were able to maintain your self respect; in their eyes maintain the upper hand, and they might decide to target you for some kind of reprisal in the future. I've met a couple of people like that.
Yes I had a boss who was truly vindictive, abusive and spiteful. The only answer was to leave. I wish I had known that sooner. I stayed there for four years and have never been the same since.
What's important is knowing the other person's patterns. If you know someone is effectively a sociopath who will use any attempt at assertiveness to crush you even more, the better tactic is to flatter them and make them like you enough that you stay out the line of fire.
Thank you so much for this video. I have high functioning autism and I've struggled to understand social dynamics my entire life. There aren't many people on youtube talking about these things, I'm glad this showed up in my recommended. You got yourself a new subbie! Hoping to see more videos like this one in the future.
Oh, I’m so glad! And yes, these models (Drama Triangle in particular) have helped me to grasp what’s going on in uncomfortable social situations.
Welcome to the community 🩶
This would never work with a narcissistic boss
Could you imagine saying this to a narc boss while looking them in the eye? The ego bruise. They would have it out for you forever 😅
Exactly, they wouldn't even understand how it's aimed at them - they'd find a way to twist it into a personal failure on YOUR part and how what YOU did is wrong.
So true. Or a boss who's on crack (I have experienced it!).
Well, there are narcissistic people and there are narcissists (of a few shades) - a malevolent narcissist will 100% turn this technique into a perpetual crusade against whoever pushes back. Narc-y people are usually terrible but rules and social mores can often be brought to bear against them; they’re so insecure that they can be swayed by humiliation from even unseen third parties. True narcissists, however, don’t have that vulnerability… they only care about their ego and power, other people are basically NPCs to them
yeah certain bosses you can try if you want but sometimes you just gotta go
A similar anecdote I have is I used to have a boss that was really demanding and rude to me and the other team members. It all changed when one day she was going off at me I said "hey it's chill, I understand it's your head in the smasher if things go wrong". Her attitude completely changed and communication with her became a lot more civil and productive.
That is very rare.
Learn about narcissism. That is what the boss is. Life is so much easier when you recognize and understand you are dealing with a person with a personality disorder. Unless you learn the rules by which narcissists operate and how you 'lock' into them because of your unresolved childhood trauma, you can never move on. I married a narcissist because my parents were both narcissists. I was a people pleaser and a fixer - a narcissists magnet. Take me 55 years to get where I am now. Free and having my best life. I wish your channel was available all those years ago.
Huge congrats for building this awareness and freedom for yourself! I’m sorry to hear about what you had to go through in order to get here, though 🩶🩶🩶
Came here to say this boss 100% has narcissistic personality disorder lol. They can't step out of their role, because the goal is not to "get what they want", but to control and feel superior to other people. This is why they won't replace bullying with assertiveness unfortunately.
They only behave "normal" for a short period of time when you refuse the abuse, just enough time to figure out what different strategy to apply with you to regain control. 😢
@@LaPetitePlaneteDeRoxi Exactly - control and feel superior
The "akward thing", is in fact- being true, honest, wise and mindful. 😊
I know someone who is both the persecutor and the saviour. She’s is a nightmare and a horrible human being.
People with Narcissistic Personality Disorder do this to keep you on their string.
I've had the experience.
I was "straightened" by one of my exes and my now current husband. They sat with me and very calmly said they would not engage in drama. That made me realize that I was the toxic one. Fast-forward a few years, now I'm the one sometimes telling my husband the same, and both of us take it down a notch. Being open and sincere and calm does help!
I had something like that happen at my last job. I hadn't been there very long before the boss put me in charge of training new people which pissed off the woman who trained me especially as she'd been there a lot longer. I didn't particularly want the job of training people but oh, well, I'd give it my best try. So enter the second person in the triangle, the so-called rescuer. She would come to me and tell me that there were complaints about the way I was training people. She also did not get along with person number one, who was a very vindictive and dangerous person when crossed; not going to go into detail but there were incidents I either witnessed or heard about that told me that this person had no scruples about sabotaging others' work and/or causing physical harm; the company was well aware of this and for some reason chose to protect her. Anyway, person number two was trying her best to stir up trouble between me and person number one which was stupid on her part as she had already had a taste (literally) of what person number one was capable of (tampering with food and drink). I saw the triangle forming and I wanted nothing to do with it. The first time person number two came to me with this story, I had a pretty good idea what the source was (person number one) and I told her point-blank, "If anyone has a problem with the way I do things, they can either come to me in person or go to my supervisor. The only drama I care to be involved in is on the stage (I did community theater)." She looked at me like "you aren't going to play this game?" Nope. I'm not. I don't give a damn. I'm counting down to retirement. All I want to do is stay under person number one's radar, although I didn't say any of that. Well, a little while after that she tried starting that shit back up and again I told her, "Either whoever is saying this brings it to me or the supervisor or they can shut the F up. I really don't give a damn. I didn't ask for this position, I don't really want it, and if the supervisor gives it to someone else, that's fine with me. Otherwise I don't want to hear any more about it." She said, "no he said she said stuff, right?" I said, "That's right, you got that part straight. I do not want to hear anything more about it, I've told you what channels to go through if someone has a problem with how I do things. If they don't want to do that, that's too damn bad, because I am not going to listen anymore to anyone's he said she said bullshit, including you." This time, it sunk in that I really meant it and I didn't have any more problems with her or anyone else complaining about my training methods. I think the key was I really didn't care one way or another so it didn't really matter what anyone said; the only person I answered to was the supervisor and he was the very last person they wanted involved in this little game. I'm retired now and very happily so.
everything u did was correct. as a black man in a similar situation, i don't have that option not to care. i will LOSE the job, and income.
then the argument, but then just go to another job...then u must explain your past, and no one believes a black man.
Sounds like “I statements”. Starting a stressful conversation with “I need”…, “I feel…”, or “I am…” Takes the pressure off the other people and non-confrontationally identifies your needs immediately.
Mostly people do this so badly it’s just a minority different form of manipulation
Except that if your dealing with a narcissist or a cluster B personality disorder they don't care.
Yeah to narcissist there is no you, only them.
@@BaronCreel Well said!
My last boss became insufferable, but it motivated me to find a new job, so I guess that's good.
I've never really learned how to handle conflicts, because I've never gotten any advice that seems applicable in real life.
Exactly. Some people are asses even if you do what the lady in video did: politely tell them you want calm comunication etc. Just becouse you tell them what you want doesnt mean they are gonna listen, or that they even know how to have calm comunication without blame
I've found that defense mechanisms run so deep in the subconscious we don't recognize them in ourselves. Truly, everyone complained about narcissistic manipulation without being able to see manipulation in themselves. We think it's all clear cut and premeditated but I'd argue that manipulation is FAR more likely to be subconscious then obvious and conscious. I don't know or think I deserve to have "Needs" but I never knew that. I'm driven to "help" others and feel like I want everyone to have a safe place and a shoulder so bad I can't let attunement between me and others play out naturally because I'm looking for any cue that tells me someone needs help or to feel valued. Not everyone wants you to "be there" for them, sometimes people are OK not being ok... and that's ok.
The narcissist knows exactly what they are doing. There is nothing much going on that isn’t planned.
damn how do you try to stop fixing other people’s problems.. it’s such a bad habit of mine. i do it all the time to my family but i realize it probably often comes of as nagging, although i think it comes from a place of well meaning.
This is a really important point. So many victims of abuse will grow up to naturally manipulate the people in their lives so that they can protect themselves, but tragically it just makes people angry. My theory about this is that in the cycle of abuse (this video premise is actually borrowed from the triad of abuse) you have the tension building phase, where the relationship will become more and more tense until you have an abusive incident, where the abuser blows up and harms the victim, then after this you’ll have a honeymoon phase, where the abuser asks for forgiveness and shows attrition through love bombing and gifts and kindness, and then this will eventually transition back into the tension building phase. It’s common for victims to do things to trigger the explosion after enduring the tension building for too long, because the stress of not knowing when or how the other shoe drops is overwhelming and maddening; and to get back to the honeymoon phase again.
Of course this is all unconscious, even though it is completely instigated and perpetuated by the abuser, the cycle itself isn’t intentional to the abuser. They are just being their sh*tty selves and externalizing rage instead of attempting introspection and real empathy. But I’ve started to think the victims can come away with this need to sort of pop the pimple of anger they might sense growing in someone, bc they have a survival mechanism that helped get them this far, and so whenever they feel threatened, they may trigger the bomb and then take cover and hide. For a well meaning person, this is an infuriating experience because it feels like someone attacking you and then suddenly changing into this pitiful grey rock mentality, effectively walking you up to and then shoving you into this persecutor role that you never wanted to be in, and it’s unfair.
Anyways my mom does this to me all the time but I know she doesn’t mean it. I grew up in abusive environments bc she did too and she will hook me in with putting me in the rescuer role, helping her with her neighbor who is bullying her or talking to some scammer that’s refusing to stop debuting her account weekly for hundreds of dollars. She’s incredibly passive aggressive and negative and she makes me feel terrible bc I’m angry but she just probably senses tension and unconsciously tries to pop the emotional zit. I have to enter into a visit with her from a very specific headspace, so in a way _extremely_ conscious, because if I don’t sometimes she makes me so mad I want to throw stuff. It’s exhausting and so sad bc I know she doesn’t understand why she’s alone and there’s no way to tell her it’s because she’s emotionally exhausting. I’ve gone no contact with her many times in my adult life but ultimately I still appreciate her for being the only real source of love I had growing up and she was a dedicated mom. We’ve just both been through a lot but I was lucky enough to grow up in a world where I could self help far enough to get real help and there are just more options. She’s so far into her own schemas now and even if she won’t do it, I can’t dig her out, and I have to stop trying. It’s tough bc her bs is relentless, but I still see glimmers of promise in her sometimes
@@elsie4802 I had to practice for a few years of telling myself to just shut up, they are not asking for unsolicited advice (not to mention that it's annoying to give advice that people seem like they are looking for, only not to follow it). But be warned, you will then move to a new area where people think you are such a great listener... Cuz you just end up listening...so as you are practicing not rescuing, also practice healthy boundaries. Or just give the advice in hopes they will go away haha
@@stargazer6328 Oh well, i could take that. Thanks!
I say the awkward thing every time and I am open and honest but my boss is that insecure and that controlling it doesnt work, she shuts me down and even tells me I cant speak to other people, even when I am being asked direct questions about issues she doesnt have the technical skill to understand. Nice idea but when companies employ mouth pieces in positions of power rather than those with any skill, those particularly in STEM subjects get bullied and shut down because of their insecurity and lack of knowledge.
I've been all 3. It's easier to be compassionate when we realize we aren't above anyone. The social matrix is wild
"I reject your reality, and substitute my own"
Sometimes it's not that people love drama, etc. It's just that you don't know that you can speak up for yourself without losing your job.
You can't like it's fucking draining shit runs in people's lives a stupid kids won't is understand that let alone mentally ill individuals
I used to get bullied at school. It took me a long time to realise that the girls in my class who were nice to me because they felt sorry for me were just reinforcing my victim mentality. Fortunately I had a couple of true friends who built up my self-esteem.
💚
Your videos are so much fun! Thank you. I appreciate the reminder to stay off the Drama Triangle as much as possible, and then when I am on it from whatever starting-gate position, to flow instead into beautiful, ackward, clumsy, enlivening, inconvenient, but-oh-so-good emotional integrity. It rocks.
While I dont like (admitting to myself) that I'm feeling bad in a group, It's like, Oh, I just needed to learn my (good) power again. Or something like that.
Super great channel and delivery.
Ah, I LOVE this explanation!! “I just need to learn my (good) power again” 🙌🏼👏🏼🙌🏼👏🏼🙌🏼
You've voiced something that I've just been beginning to notice and try to put words to my approach, so thank you for sharing this. People are rather vulnerable when they don't know what to expect, and by disengaging in the triangle, they may also be able to snap out of the themselves. As others have pointed out, this won't work for everyone, and if it doesn't work, then they're probably not someone you want to be around anyway.
If I have understood this correctly the „awkward thing“ is honesty. Why is honesty awkward? It might be uncomfortable for some people, but awkward? Maybe I don’t understand the meaning of awkward right…besides that I have made the same observation in life: being open and communicating honestly what you observe, aka calling out that the emperor is actually naked, has always worked to stay out of power games.
Yes, definitely! The awkward thing = (often emotional) honesty. It sounds simple, but people find it extremely difficult to express their emotions, and usually feel very awkward about it (if not downright afraid). So I’ve called it “the awkward thing” here to highlight the fact that these convos are never easy, and just because every cell in your body wants NOT to say the awkward thing isn’t a reason not to 🩶
Because they are not being honest. By you being honest, you are making them realize that.
They are jealous, they are triggered, they see what they don't have in you. You "unmask" them (even if you don't mean to and you are just existing).
In the Book Games people play, the author mentions how many of the interactions we have, we tend to assume the child or the adult role. It is important to be an adult and ask a boss with a meltdown who blames you for a problem: „ok, problem x occurred. How would you recommend that I proceed?“
Here you are removing yourself from the victim or child role, by taking the power back. You are validating the „fact“ that the problem occurred and you are willing to work towards a solution.
Really nice framework… assertive boss asking for a need, rescuer taking a step back and letting the other person step up, victim sticking to facts, being a confident adult, taking the power back
Would be interested to hear an update which includes Womeldorff's "Empowerment Triangle". I'm especially interested in how the Persecutor changes into the Challenger. Great video, keep 'em coming!
Yes, I should do one! I prefer to call it the Authorship Triangle and focus on how we’re writing our own stories, but it’s based on TED. I’ll take a look at putting something together for a future shoot 🤍
I’m so happy that I’m from the Netherlands where we like to be direct and honest. I’m almost never involved in drama
This is great advise. It made me see my own roles in the game. I once told a “friend” the awkward thing: “The only thing I do not want between us is codependency.” It was the end of a bad friendship. With those words, I gained my power back, clarity, tons of relief and freedom from any toxic friendships. I didn’t know this was actually a “brainy” thing to do. Now I have the neurological explanation. Thank you!
I can see this happening easily and completely understood when you said that your boss was panicking and scared. Walking in and saying, "Okay, let's work this out so it doesn't happen again" was not only what you needed but what she needed. I think most times people walk into the triangle out of fear. Fear keeps you from thinking clearly, so you just go into a role out of habit, probably engrained from early life experiences.
The video completely caught me off guard when she said "one day, there was a really big fuck-up at work" in the nicest posh British lady accent possible lmaooo
It dawned on me one day that I think I've dodged some bullies and controlling people by being oblivious. I kinda go my own way and only look up if someone really gets my attention. However, without being aware and inoculated against it, I had no idea that a wolf in sheeps clothing had gotten ahold of me. Took me years of educating myself, but I'm getting there. The key for me is boundaries. ❤
Life is good when I’m the rescuer and the victim at the same time😇 I don’t even save myself, turn deaf on my own problems, moan about them later, and try the hardest to get my nose into someone else’s dramas that are not even related to me because I think I’m justice or something like that 😒 like can I just stop being hypocritical? I’m so tired of my own sh*t
I think you're on your way. 💛
@@Bearwithme560
True, seeing clearly and accepting responsibility for our problems is a great first step.
I work with someone who always disses the people she works with. our boss asked me if she said anything to me, hinting at there being some problems between us. I just plainly said: no. if she's not gonna tell me directly what she wants from me I am not going to engage in these idiotic corporate games.
@@esthykechan 💪🏼
"for whatever reason, that's the role they're hooked into every time."
I trust you less seeing you're unwilling to delve into how these are all responses to chronic, early childhood trauma.
Kids are programmed to emulate what they see. In our current society, virtually everyone is interpersonally sick. Kids copy interpersonal sickness they see, they inherit the insecurities of their parents, and then they hand it all down to their own kids. Generation after generation.
You have to always be on guard.
There’s also bosses who use trendy topics with moral weight to get people to feel guilty while they are personally acting hypocritical.
It's incredibly easy to take over the role of the rescuer when you're in the position of being attacked. I simply showed my work and the person positioned to be the rescuers work side by side to the persecutor and explained that they were blaming me for someone else's work because they were being misled about who did what work while scapegoating any problems to me. I essentially took over their role then and there and it stayed like that until I took a position somewhere else and left years later.
"Say The Awkward Thing"
Well. "Let's look at the facts calmly" isn't all that awkward, is it?))
I need to watch this video ten thousand times....
So glad this popped up for me today. I have been learning more and more about the roles we can assume and how much leeway we have to shift old patterns of behavior and thought. Fascinating and empowering. Off to download the app again, I had totally forgotten how helpful it is to keep my mind open to these explorations.
Thank you for this video. My boss is a complete narcissist and a bully. She's had issues with everyone at work, yet management doesn't care enough to let her go and treats the lower people like they're expendable. I sit up nice and tall now and maintain eye contact and my boss can't even look me in the eye anymore. LOL
This drama triangle gave me new perspectives as I experienced the exact same problems in my family dynamics as the younger sibling. So I have to say THANK YOU! However, although such power dynamics take place in every aspect of our lives, it is much more difficult to cope when they occur within the family.
Heidi priebe explains this very well: the worldview here is that, you won't be okay until the other person changes.
I thik these power plays roles are waaay underrated, unexplored and that theres much more to them, and many more of them as well ... as an infj, i can sense through ppls bs instantly, and i just block them ... out of my life, out of soc.media, out of my weiv at work, etc, etc, as i don t play others ppls drama ... and the price for all this ... well, i am a happily singel hermit, and lovgin it
This is amazing. I knew about the triangle but somehow forgot about it recently. What you did was brilliant and sharing this is even more so. Came to me at just the right time. I've been so into the drama lately haha! Keep up the good work. You're changing lives ❤
@@jacksnstaffs5562 I’m so glad this helped! DT was so completely life-changing for me, too 🖤
And what are we supposed to do when we act & say all the mature, respectful stuff, but it doesn't work? Meaning, our boss/parent/whoever continues being aggressive, controlling, petty, etc. This is what happens every time I try to stand up for myself, and I have yet to see a good answer.
I have impairments. I need my job bc I have bills to pay. But my bosses are unreasonable and childish. I'm not qualified to do anything, and finding another job is difficult AND is very likely not going to be a better fit.
While I appreciate your video, the information & story you've shared, these things tend to not work when dealing with childish people, and it feels like running into a wall.
Boundaries are the only answer here.
I feel like I often fall under victim but I don’t do a lot of these victim things. Some yes, but not all. I definitely am prone to be in honest/awkward and that gets me into trouble, too. I feel like I can’t really escape…
The thing is: One time I dared to be open about how my boss made me feel and it just made me feel like an absolute idiot, and it changed nothing. I had a team leader at one of my work places and she literally just picked on me from the first day on for no reason, one time when I had to have a one on one with her I thought to do the unthinkable (because I am indeed a strong person who has been through more than anybody at that work place have been), and said to her that 'sometimes I am scared of her'. I don't know why I thought that this would change her behavior, it made it worse actually. Her response to this was: 'I don't mind' - now I really did not know just what could I respond to this when somebody is truly an A**hole. So bullying continued everyday, luckily during the Pandemic with remote work we no longer had to be confronted with each other on a daily basis, but she tried different ways - such as giving me work to do instead of the work I was already doing for a different team leader (who was super nice btw), saying that was more important, but the other team leader told her to F*** off haha. In the end she became the group lead and as soon as that happened she put me out of my job. Now the thing is, knowing how this person behaved she was actually extremely insecure abusing her position at work to feel powerful, because there was no real power in her. And instead being open and friendly like all the rest of the team leaders were, when she faked interest, I knew it was fake, it felt like being interrogated - bringing up inappropriately intimate topics in the work place when I couldn't engage in deep conversations as it felt out of place, to get some dirt on me that would be good gossip later. - so I really don't know, I thought I made an attempt to step out of the role, but it just made things worse.
Sorry to hear about it. We can't trust some people. They are not at all reasonable.
@@priskruger314 thank you.
I had a similar life changing moment, however I had little time to gather my thoughts and I was in the maelstrom of the triangle and a person with big feelings. I got completely blindsighted and became the scapegoat after so many triangles as the victim. I was given maybe half an hour to come to terms with unemployment as they made their decision. I feel I accepted the drama that I had caused, but told them it was caused by the environment they cultivated. I didn't recognize myself anymore because of the stress reactions I had. I am still healing from this trauma however I believe that is the day the active pain stopped because I stood up for myself and realized that I deserved better.
May everyone do the same!
Edited because I can't word.
This is SO REAL. Thank you for sharing. I’ve totally experienced this shift in perceived “boss monsters” before. Once we internally shift, others around us shift as well.
Yes!! It truly feels like some kind of magic when it happens 🩶
Great video. One of the lessons here is that you can't "make" people want to deal with you fairly or be respectful, but when you're on the triangle and not being direct somehow it can seem like there's nothing you can do about what other people are doing. There can be a sense of needing other people's permission to change the dynamic (you often hear people say "they made me..." or "they wouldn't let me"). Saying the thing makes the movement around the triangle stop and now there's no where to hide or go if you don't like the outcome. This makes you face the problem. If another person is abusive and won't stop when you stand up for yourself, you have a problem you need to figure out. You can't "go back" and be the victim now and hope a rescuer will come save you. But getting off the triangle has a big barrier- an abusive person will often shift into victim in order to try to cast you as persecutor, knowing that most people will feel drawn to come back to the dynamic to clear their name and straighten it out. The cost of getting out is often allowing yourself to be cast as a bully and just walking away. This is so hard because the abuser knows that people who tend to play victim or rescuer HATE being seen as the persecutor and will often come back an infinite number of times to try to set the record straight. Don't do it.
Very insightful comment
I think you got lucky and found out what you needed. The problem with bullying and drama is that oftentimes there is no clear need anymore because everything is constantly turned into a game with them. They will try to one up you, they will try to mock your request, you literally got lucky and had someone with enough sense to participate.
Your honesty about yourself in the past is impressive and I believe this vulnerability you shared contributes to healing for whoever listens ❤
I've played all three sides of the drama triangle throughout my life, and didn't really enjoy the outcomes from any of them. I spent a lot of time and energy (and some therapy) working on introspection, and it did help me to recognize my needs, the needs of those close to me, without as much drama, but like addiction, it is a constant process, to avoid backsliding or "falling off the wagon". It is hard, because I see the drama triangle everywhere, in strangers, in the way the news is presented, in movies and TV shows, basically it is like an alcoholic that lives in a bar. I persevere, basically because what other choice is there, and I do feel stronger for it, but often I am tired of the introspective struggle, and the energy it consumes, just to stay mostly tolerant and sane. Eventually, humanity will get past this hurdle, just as we have gotten past many others, throughout history, but probably not in my lifetime.
I love this woman’s entire aesthetic
I know what it is, she’s like a younger brit version of Susan Sarandon
I don't know why this video was recommended to me but it really speaks to my situation tbh. I actually just quit my job with a boss who had exactly these tendencies, being stressed and putting it on everyone else instead of actually doing sth about it herself, and my coworker and I regularly played victim and rescuer to her antics. It's hard to make that step and actually voice your needs, because for some people it just doesn't work. It will give you peace of mind for the moment, sure, but ultimately what happened was everyone who behaved outside of what was expected got a label and they never lost that. Mine just happened to be that I was unable to take criticism and back talked. Now I don't want to paint myself too favourably but what I did was really just stand up for myself and not play into people's bullshit. And I tried to get rid of the label by doing the opposite, always playing nice and putting all my frustration and anger inwards. Evidently that didn't work. It's hard enough to change your own behaviour but it's damn near impossible to change others'. I think the behaviour described in this video has a great chance of working with somebody who has the ability to change and see their own mistakes but for somebody who's so deep into the game they just won't change. So all you can do, for your own good, is leave. Much strength to everybody dealing with such people on the regular, you guys have all my heart
You should have added a warning that standing up for yourself to a superior in the workplace who is a bully can easily end up in you being treated worse or being fired.
This video made me realize I am in a drama triangle and I am the rescuer. As I was watching I had an urge to send this to the person who's the victim in my triangle...I just found that kind of funny.
Your video helps so much! Actually, it is exactly what I needed. I found it while looking for ways to end a drama situation with a friend. I just want my peace and my dignity at the same time. Thank you!
When I was a social worker, we called this “The Triangle of Disempowerment.” If it seemed like someone was especially overwhelmed by a situation we’d ask if they felt they were on the triangle and step in for each other if we needed to back off from a bit and get help
Four years late. I wish i learned this when i was young adult 😅 i really chose to quit my job because of this. It took me years to slowly realize i needed to defend myself more and stand still. But hey better late than never learn at all
Thank you for posting this video. Hold that hero response! A boss that is always tearing into his or her crew is like a person who can't stop picking at a scab, and maybe gets a little fascinated with the attention. If it is a performance for one it's not one that's healthy to watch. If it's an 'influencer' performance, that's a 3-body-problem no one else needs to be fed to.
I've had that "body language" moment. I was still bricking it, but I adopted the philosophy of "fake it till you make it".
I think this really helps explain how to fix drama and work with other people, I often see other people and even some of the top commenters simply antagonizing the persecutor instead of thinking of the big picture. Cause I many times have seen people in persecutor roles who arent bad people at heart but are stuck in this cycle.
All you need to do to stop bullying is get the bully to stop bullying. Got it.
Unfortunately though, some people are just as*holes, and these strategies fall flat. I've tried all these on my boss. She is like sludge to work for! What are you going to do when they refuse to change? Maintain your own peace people!
The role labeled "Rescuer" reminds me that I grew up believing the world needed a "white knight savior" and I've noticed a lot of LEO tend to fall into that category! Now though, a lot of LEO are in a new role I like to call "Enforcer"! The enforcer role, in my humble opinion means they have to be hyper aggressive to make sure they are never challenged in the public! Both the "white knight" and the "enforcer" roles are extremes, so the best role to hole is one that's somewhere in the middle!
Is something wrong with me and my life when I never played this games?
I was always frank and honest.
And quit a lot of jobs.
This came to me at the right time. I'm in the process of leaving my job because I've started to become the victim due to her management "style". It's been rough
I am so grateful to not be in that triangle with my literally insane step-mother-in-law anymore. She complained about EVERYONE but the person she was with. And you yeah, you wondered what was being said about you. When I started standing up for others and myself, she made me the bad guy, and I won't have anything to do with her anymore.
Im usually a saviour... a few years ago I found myself talking to someone again after many years of no contact do to our toxic relation to each other through victim/saviour + anxious attachment stuff. Well it all kinda started going that way again.... I said the awkward thing though. I was honest and expressed my needs instead of trying to be close to them because being a saviour...
the whole thing blew up, they dont want to talk to me and it really really really sucked. Ive been feeling horrible and stupid for saying what I did until I watched your video and understood why and how even though it was so unpleasant I did the right thing.
Thank you.
1979 I ‘m Okay ,You’re Okay
Very popular in college.
Be matter of fact , use low tone, pause and slow pace , speak clearly and stay calm.
Say no and go.
Away from the situation and redirect your thoughts and energy.
Be firm.
I hired an attorney recently to help with a problem at work. The first two days, we were in heavy contact with each other, and created a strategy with each of our roles being clear on what we had to do, and nothing else had to be done urgently. Since I promised him I'd scan the file and email it to him at the end of week, I told him I hope he didn't mind, but I needed the next two days to myself because the file was a mess and I needed time to sort through it in order to scan and email it to him, and besides that I was leaving on a trip that Saturday morning, and I hadn't begun to pack. His whole attitude went from being friendly to being as cold as ice. I didn't expect him to get insulted by my request, and thought his attitude change was odd.
i didn't become a victim, until i met some especially cruel "person". i used to struggle to even understand why people would respond to me the way did. now i do understand, because of this individual's choices.
while, i don't personally believe that what I'm going through is exactly as you say here in this video. i do believe it should theoretically help me.
I am screaming at the top of my lungs because this was quite literally the definition of my last job lmao I feel so seen
the first person you described in the video exactly describes my present so called best friend and so many people from my college