The Charybdis Wireless Keyboard
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- Опубликовано: 22 май 2024
- More trackball content? • The Ploopy Trackball(s)
JLCPCB 3D Printing starts at $1. Get $54 Coupons here: 3d.jlcpcb.com/?from=EIGA
Charybdis by Quentin Lebastard:
bastardkb.com/charybdis/
VOIDed mods:
github.com/victorlucachi/char...
github.com/victorlucachi/Elit...
My zmk-config repo:
github.com/eigatech/zmk-confi...
ufan's repo with trackball demo shield:
github.com/ufan/zmk/tree/ptde...
VOID's repo with chary shield:
github.com/victorlucachi/zmk/...
Gear used to shoot this video:
Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K amzn.to/3MCtpOS
Sigma Art 18-35 EF amzn.to/3SBW3DF
* Note that I earn money from the Amazon affiliate links above
Special thanks:
42. Keebs (42keebs.eu)
Misc:
precondition.github.io/home-r...
github.com/manna-harbour/miry...
Instagram:
/ eiga.tech
Chapters:
0:00 (Introduction & planning)
2:39 (Parts overview)
4:20 (First impressions)
4:56 (Typing tests)
6:11 (Trackball use)
7:53 (Battery life)
8:07 (Keymaps)
9:27 (Home row mods)
10:07 (Conclusions) 
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"if it sounds like they did all the work, that's because they did, go and show them some love for being so incredible!" very much appreciate the honesty, saying something like that helps people to recognize that some people just want to help someone else and not be responsible for making the 'final product' in this case, a well edited and paced youtube video. Great work to all parties involved!
I've been eyeing a Chrybdis for a while, but never seen any shots this clean
Haha the timing on this is crazy, I'm busy soldering my Corne which uses your and VOIDs case design from the previous Corne video. It's looking so good. Thanks for documenting everything you are doing so meticulously!
Nice! Always glad to hear that. Feel like trying out the Chary next, or...?
@@EIGAtech I hate having to move my hand to the mouse, so this seems like the perfect next step. I'll get used to the corne for now and see how it goes. Although sourcing parts and building the Chary seems slightly more involved haha.
Beautiful video! I really appreciate the included discussion of key layouts. It’s one of the cooler aspects of reduced keyset keyboards, but so often skipped over.
yes absolutely. I'm new to custom keyboards and this pretty much blows my mind. still trying to figure out the sweet spot of key layouts for my first move into this... but I guess a skylla or smaller charybdis could make a nice fit. not sure about the trackball yet.
another cool aspect is the reduced functionality which will make you less productive.
3:05 totally not what I was expecting when you said flexible PCB. Really amazing
We need a build guide!!!
Funny that how the guy that made it would do a build guide
@@jakobkent2807link
If you have built a few other keyboards, you can probably figure it out. You should go for it!
The designer has a build guide of all of his keyboards online
I need to buy IT ready to rumble, tinkering sucks
I'm 47 years old. A Proud Trackball user since my 16 years old! I used those crazy discontinued Logitech models. Then I discovered the Huge Kensington one. If you get used to, it's very comfortable to use. I destroyed at RTS games with my trusty Trackball. Sound and video editing, it's really good. The satisfaction to slap the ball and move the scrub in a pinch is priceless.
But Indeed if you need some with precision it's not the right choice. But in my case here, I don't necessarily need to use a mouse. I got also a Wacom Intuos. So I got a gaming mouse for my brother, so he could use it on blender, just because the comfort of the Middle button and the extra 6 programmable buttons. But I still prefer an old trusty trackball. ALWAYS.
awesome video, i quite like the case design for the 3x5 version of the Chary more than the 4x5. I wish they both looked the same since the number row would be quite nice for me to have outside of a layer.
Both builds looks great and the video quality is top notch! I'd love to hear an update later if you get used to the keyboard. Thanks for sharing all the links too! The only resource I didn't find it was the support bracket for the smaller size. Is that available anywhere? Thanks again and looking forward to your next videos!
I think that if you guys each bought a GameBall and really used it as a mouse replacement for a month or so and then tried to ergonomically integrate it with a 36 key Corne, you could create something truly amazing that could become the best input device, not just for computer and VR, but beyond that.
Imagine truly becoming independent of the desk. Being able to attach your input device to the armrests of your chair. This goes past just hand ergonomics. Suddenly the ergonomics of the whole body become accessible to optimization.
We're talking not just computers here, but operators of excavators and other heavy equipment. Drone pilots. Steering a ship.
I think the key that makes this possible is to have a gaming first focus. Having a trackball of the utmost quality for the right hand with proper buttons, wheels and high accuracy. A proper and complete mouse replacement. And having all the movement keys surrounding ESDF. And obviously no home row mods, because that doesn't work with gaming.
Instead home row mods would need to go to combo mods. That also gets rid of the latency and accidental activation by rolling. What are combo mods? Instead of long-pressing for the modifier key, you press a combo for your home row modifier key and then use the slow-release function in ZMK to keep the modifier active until all combo keys are released.
looking at the keyboard, it also doesn't seem difficult to fit a second trackball. That would allow you to do a fairly decent approximation of any game controller I think.
I've always wanted to make these wireless and attach them to my chair. I would pay ANY price for that. ANY. Seriously, ANY.
What was the total cost of this build? Love your videos and the quality of your content, looking forward to building a keyboard from your vids, not sure which one yet, but def doing one!
This is super cool! It's unfortunate that the pinout for the 3610 sensor isn't a drop in replacement for the 3360. I've got a number of daughter boards for the 3360 waiting for a keyboard to be put in.
My friend used a trackerball for FPS in the late 90s.. I was never much good with it but he was a *surgeon*
Right now, it's a bit out of my budget, but I've genuinely fallen in love with this keyboard. I'm certain that I'll purchase it in the future. I believe it will be a game-changer for me on my journey as a programmer.
If you have the patience for microsoldering, consider ordering the PCBs off of JLCPCB and trying your hand at making it from scratch
the print quality here looks so great tho
One thing I would like to see in a columnar is 1.5 unit width modifiers. When playing games on my ortholinear I have to use the first knuckle of my pinky to press CTRL. On columnar boards the distance is even greater and I have to bind SHIFT to where CAPSLOCK would be and CTRL where SHIFT would be. Having wider modifiers would make the strain of using WASD with SHIFT and CTRL much more bearable. I have seen some columnar boards, like the Ergodox EZ widen the modifiers, EXCEPT where CTRL would normally be-- the key I would most want to be widened. I thought about designing a board myself, but life is busy and I haven't found the time.
I really like this build
Hey! For the precision issue with the trackball, Logitech implements a precision mode button that can be toggled which lowers the DPI. I use the MX Ergo as a daily driver and that precision switch allows me to CAD and Game with no issues.
There is a similar functionality in ZMK, but I still feel like the precision isn't quite there (with this particular trackball/sensor).
Omg i need this, looks amazing!
Please do a wireless keyboard with trackpad next. Your video quality is so good.
I freaking love this keyboard, job well done!!! Would you consider going back to redesigning this keyboard by adding a scroll wheel around the trackball? If you Google trackball mouse you'll probably find an example of what I'm talking about, but anyway if you do, I would love to get a notification about the redesign of it! Looking forward to more of your videos!
Thank you, but I am not the designer of this keyb, that would be Quentin Lebastard. VOID made modifications to get the wireless build working, and I am merely a messenger.
Love cool videos like this. Innovation always comes from the ppl. Free the patents!!
Can’t wait until the ultimate input device is created!!!
During the typing tests there are super low frequency artifacts. Those might be traveling through the table and microphone stand. If that's the case you could get rid of them by better isolating microphone and table from each other. If it comes from the table directly through the air, you can either get a heavier table or apply a low pass filter in editing.
I like the idea of the attached track ball, but its easier for me to use a keyboard with more keys. Currently running moonlander.
Amazing video, I love the grey color and the blank keycaps
what are they?
This would be great as a productivity setups in combination with a VR-Headset
That's interesting, did not even consider VR but I can see how it would be useful having everything in a predictable location.
Great work!
Could you publish the support bracket for the pmw3610 lens, please?
Wow! This is simply amaizing!
Chapters:
0:00 (Introduction & planning)
2:39 (Parts overview)
4:20 (First impressions)
4:56 (Typing tests)
6:11 (Trackball use)
7:53 (Battery life)
8:07 (Keymaps)
9:27 (Home row mods)
10:07 (Conclusions)
It's interesting. Thank you. I was a track-ball user back in the days of the Mac ][ FX and I occasionally use one on my Win 10/11 machines. The layout for the MB1 and MB2 are wrong here. Not inconvenient or in any other insignificant way, but actually wrong. - making that design an actual impossibility for trackball use. :) Why you ask, because of modifier keys.
Trackball users learn to use one digit for the ball and two other digits of the same hand for MB1 and MB2. There were/are several approaches to an accommodating layout. The most popular and sensible across the planet of TB users from about 2000 to present day is that of the "Logitech TrackMan Marble FX T-CJ12" if you need ideas. If a person is to become an actual TB user that's typically the only layout design that users don't eventually give up on. There's a long post/review of it by some guy named Larry on Amazon with photos of it including disassembled. And of course anyone who used one for more than a few weeks could probably tell you how and why it worked so well - ball-size, weight, and button layout chiefly among them.
That said, it might be more or as interesting to place a analog/digital joystick where you have that ball. There are some mice which include such a design - the newest of which is the "ROG Chakram" mouse. RandomFrankP has an OK-ish review of that here on YT.
Enjoy, and thanks again for the mind-share!
@@teletesselator Thank you for the insight and the detailed comment. I will have some more trackball content in the not-too-distant future which I think you'll find interesting.
@@EIGAtech Cool! Keep up the good work! This stuff is fun huh?
Back in the early 80's I took my CS into a huge HID investigative phase - fun times!
@@teletesselator Curious how much it weighs in total, roughly speaking?
@@ChatGTA345 The webpage says 105 grams.
Honestly one of the coolest keyboards I've seen buy holy shit, this is way too 5head for me. Awesome.
that is a sexy keyboard. love that rustic aesthetic
i think putting wireless charging pads in them is really a viable solution, and also having desk mats that enables it, sure it have to be placed at specific spot, but as long as it is there enough to charge it up, theoretically it can be forever wireless.
why not wired at that point
@@user-lp5wb2rb3v clutter. options. aesthetics.
I'd just go with magnetic dongle
Nice work
This is awesome!
Can you pelase do a build log or a video on wireelss charybdis with trackball I have been looking for a tutorial for so long!
Nice project. I was thinking to about something similar but with a Thinkpad styled mouse.
It should allow you to retain the whole thumb cluster but still make it possible to move the mouse.
I have tried using the trackpoint recently - one thing to note is that it puts a lot of stress on the finger joints and gets tiring to use for extended periods. I only tried over a few days so perhaps there is a point where it gets better, but I did not want to “push through the pain” even switching between my index and middle finger. Trackballs are not ideal for me so next in line for me to try is a cirque glide point but I have a feeling I will end up stuck with a mouse :/
@@veggiemush Weird, the track point is indeed stiff but that's what allow it to be actually quite accurate and at the same time quite fast without requiring a lot of movement from your hand.
I've never experienced any pain using it, maybe your acceleration settings are too low, try speeding it up to the point it doesn't require a lot of force to just move around but also not so fast that you can't aim at icons and buttons.
There is an adjustment setting for trackpoints in every operating system I've tried.
Having a trackball built into the keyboard just makes sense. Jesus this looks like endgame ergo.
This is the kind of keyboard I was looking for, with the trackball. Is there a place where I can have the project and build myself?
Keep up the good work!!!
Very cool project but was wondering if a toucha pad in place of the tracking ball wouldn't work much better and is less in the way of your typing hand.
If you added a joy stick for your thumb on the left side like the Razer Nostromo or Tarturus this would be my dream device
This is amazing. any possibility to add a palm rest and integrate a mouse into each side? There is software that allows two mice to work on a pc at the same time.
What typing test do you use? That nice dark background looked fantastic
Monkeytype
Great builds! Question regarding the ball - do you have to hover your right thumb when typing and not using the ball? Does the ball get in the way of right hand?
Great video! there is an option to connect a nice!view screen on this nice!nano adapter?
tbh I've been using a trackball for the past month and I love it so much, I think my next step is to get something like this to replace both my keyboard and mouse but I would add few more macro keys and mouse buttons and it will be 😩👌
Hey guys! Awesome work!!
Did you share all the source information somwhere by any chance?
Would love to build one myself, would be great if there are gerber and print files somwhere.
Thank you!
YT just deleted my comment I've been typing out & correcting for 10 mins 😢
First of all, thank you guys for the effort put into the video series!
Last time, you inspired me to get the corne build, which I did, and which turned out to be absolutely amazing!
As for the showcased keyboard, the timing couldn't be better for me. I included the linked nice!nano adapter instead of the Elite-C's one into my JLCPCB order 😁
For the past 2 days I've been modifying the TBK mini's PCB & case to support Alps. I plan to use orange / salmon switches from the ebay-salvaged m0116 AEKs. I have high hopes but somewhat afraid, as the modified case now has 0.8mm walls under the switch cutouts. This time, if everything works out, I will definitely post a build 😊
Regarding the next build ideas, I think it'd be amazing for you two to put your talented hands on a custom EC keyboard. For some reason everyone drools over EC switches, but they are limited to topre / niz boards. Thus, this topic is almost nonexistent on youtube / reddit.
Here are two suggestions for this:
- Dometyl keyboard, similar to the showcased one, but uses a generator for the case
- EC corne by Cipulot (github). Also, this guy has a really polished & professional repo of custom EC boards, which is weirdly unexpected, as looks like no one is aware of it.
Thanks again for your efforts!
Oh, and, also, I've been keeping an eye on the mouse alternative.
The state for them is:
- Lenovo trackpoints are supported in ZMK with a PR by infusedkim.
- Cirque trackpads, which I have on hands & these are the trackpads used in Steam Controller, they promise to the best in terms of precision, unfortunately, are not supported in ZMK, only in QMK. ZMK has some PRs open for it, but they are very raw.
- Trackballs, well, you covered this in the vid
Wow! Super detailed comment. Thanks for the suggestions as well, will no doubt confer with VOID over them and see what we can plan out for the next keyboard video.
EC switches would be something completely new to me, so would definitely be interested in that.
As for gaming, on any column staggered keyboard with accommodation for the pinky (keys closer than those for the ring finger) the typical WASD setup will feel weird. I recommend spending a little time to configure each game to use ESDF instead, which feels glorious
I have actually moved on from WASD, check out my TOTEM video: ruclips.net/video/YwsutNf1WRA/видео.html
as a user of m570 I am amazed that you work on such a project. It would be so awesome to have a touchtyping keyboard and not have to move my hand so far to use my mouse(I mean trackball).
Please work on this some more. thumb trackballs can easily replace a mouse in any task if done well. Logitech did wonderful job with m570. No lag, high precision, well calibrated axes(which perixx trackballs fail to do)
I can play competitive esports titles with m570 easily.
Hi there! Thank you for the amazing video and build. I was wondering where you sourced your sensor from. It is a hard to find item. Thanks again!
Hi! We ordered ours from China using CSSBuy and Taobao, but we saw a listing on Aliexpress as well.
@@EIGAtech Thank you! Ordered all the parts! Can't wait to build one!
I'd have to premake 5-10 of these so that whenever one inevitably breaks I'll have a backup since ya know, you can't go out and just buy these things! Once you get used to an ergo keyboard it's really hard to go back! I use the Microsoft 4000 and can not comfortably use anything else, I wish it had different internals, it's not very customizable. Either way, I love the ergonomics of the keyboard. And what's funny, my Sister uses the same keyboard, but we found our way to them independently- She didn't know I use this one, and I didn't know until I was in her office one Day- I guess it's in the Blood!
Really nice work, I wouldn't mind trying one of these out! I wouldn't want the track ball but that's just me- it actually makes it look better, but I'd never use it and it'd just get in the way.
You said that using WASD in games was kinda funky, and that is totally understandable. What about the setup that keeps your hands on home row, ESDF?
Could you give me some tips to learn to create keyboards like this one?
I find it really interesting (specially the idea to have a trackball integrated in the keyboard), but I have no prior experience with soldering and custom keyboards generically speaking.
I'm more about the pointing finger trackball over the thumb trackballs, i'm used to the elecom huge and elecom deft pro which both are pointing finger mice with a 2d scrollwheel and 4 buttons just for them thumb
I want one of these so bad!!!
I think this design would be even better with a hall effect joystick replacing the trackpad, you can use an "r3/l3" stick click to emulate left mouse click
that would be my dream endgame lol. trackball on the right split, hall effect joystick on the left split
I'm currently rocking the Skeletyl from Bastardkb, but have been wanting to do exactly this! I've been a bit too lazy to figure out how to get mouse support in zmk (or wireless in one of the other platforms), so this is a huge help thanks!
On a side note what parts tray is that being used while soldering the boards, and which filament? Both look amazing and I've been meaning to print something similar for awhile.
the hex parts tray is designed by Steve_9363 on Printables, and it was printed in Fillamentum Vertigo Grey PLA.
@@voidkb Sweet thanks!
Literally just bought the Charybidis last week LOL! dangit
I really like the idea of a split keyboard with track ball. I wonder, is it possible to make it with Wooting hall-sensor Lekker Switch that each bottom can be made into proportional axle?
Do you think it is possible to make one?
By the way, how can we get them?
This is my endgame keyboard. Probably as 3x5 tho! I wish someone sold this assembled!
I was thinking that the trackball would get in the way, but it looked like the trackball wasnt there in the video of the typing test. Wish I can try this keyboard out.
The ball is there, I did not remove it for the typing test. You can tell my hand is sort of arching more, and that's because the ball does get a bit in the way when typing.
I think I missed something.. but wouldn't there be a unified repo that we can use to build this? I've been looking to build the Charybdis and make it wireless but I lack the knowledge to code it from scratch (I know how to flash the MCU, been doing it with my keebs)
Honestly the best way to actually learn how to use a track ball is to put you mouse away so you don't reach for it when you get annoyed. Also treat it like a joystick. After 3-5 days you'll be back at 80-90% speed. Yes its steep but worth it in the end. You'll find that you can be even more accurate than a mouse since clicking is now independent from subtle wrist movements when pressing down on a mouses click
Maybe I will have future content on precisely this topic.
I was thinking about this whole issue a lot lately, since you actually used it, where is in your opinion would be the most optimal trackball position for split ergo keyboard? As on paper it feels to be the most fitting position - a little right and under the thumb when thumb's resting position is on the thumb cluster. Maybe it's in the right place, but the dimensions of the build is not quite fitting for your hand? @@EIGAtech
@@Pblrzo The positioning itself seems nice on paper, the issue has more to do with the dexterity one has with their thumb. For sure you could improve with time, but one particular motion feels pretty awkward to me: scrolling "backwards". It feels like there is less mobility or range of motion when doing this movement. Up, left, right are all fine.
Anyway, I am cooking up something regarding all this so stay tuned!
@@EIGAtech Thank you, will be waiting) Researching even more I've come to Tractyl Manuform which also incorporates trackpad, but this time "above" the thumb cluster (i.e. you have to do a little forward motion to reach it). In contex of thumb's dexterity, this is definitely less cramped position as it allows for more freedom of thumb's movement without much bending. All on paper, of course)
@@EIGAtechon a video called 'the ultimate fps controller' (or something along those lines) someone brought up something with trackballs that I haven't seen elsewhere : pinching. I think if you raised the trackball and designed it to be pinched with the thumb & another finger then you could leave the remaining fingers on the right hand with basically a large macropad. At that point you're adding a major layer of asymmetry to the keyboard, but it could majorly improve the trackball experience.
Thank you
Would it be possible (practical) to make split keyboard with one half working as mouse? Not track ball, but literal mouse.
you are the First person ive heard mention the hand size comfortability thats definitely an important factor. how big is the keyboard roughly ?
hi bro, nice video, are you selling the 6 column one, interested in these but too afraid to do the soldering job myself lol.
I don't sell them, sorry!
Related to the hand size, have you tried the nano or mini? maybe it is better. I am looking for a keyboard like this, that integrates a trackball, I feel like mouse is not needed for my type of use, and currently have an mx ergo with an air 60. I was thinking on making one, but this checks almost everything, the only thing is that I have small hands as well.
Thank you for this, I'm new to the hobby and just built a Corne. Love it so far but have been thinking that a trackball would take my work ergonomics to the next level. How would I even go about building this myself? I have no idea what to do to order PCBs and whatnot. Is there a guide for this kind of stuff anywhere?
my m570 trackball is sick, I play shooters on it and work in blender, never going back to the mouse, my next mkb will have to have it built-in
I have never tried a trackball mouse and now I'm curious how it compares.
Ok I have to ask, what case files did you guys use for the left hand of your keyboard. Was it custom? I found the 3x6 of the right hand side, but I can't find it for the left.
I think this keyboard might be a good idea for VR game.
i would love a keyboard in the style of the corne but not as minimalistic so it could be better to use for development work where all of the symbol keys are much more frequently used... I personally often experience the downsides of the staggered qwerty setup, and when going linear the step to split keyboards is also obvious. been looking at the IRIS v4 for this reason but im still missing a key or 2 that i'd like to have easily accessible
If you're not afraid of layers, checkout the miryoku layout. Takes a while to get used to but you have all necessary keys close by.
I'm not sure if this has been asked already, but do you know the rough cost of building this keyboard?
I've been struggling more and more with my health, and a normal keyboard is just not cutting it ergonomically any more. The idea of having the Ball mouse and the layout here would be so useful (Or at least I hope it would!). I may not actually be able to do the building part, but I know enough people who are decent at soldering that I might be able to get the help with that part.
The designer of the keyboard sells prebuilts bastard keyboards is the name of the shop
What camera/lens and editing software are you using?
This makes me wonder… are there keyboards with the profile of the corne or similar, with analog sticks ? Just like following the same thought process line of the chary…
would be nice if you could set up shop and sell the keyboards that you guys made even if its by batches, just get another person to manage the shop and building the keyboards :)
Nice video ! Btw, is your Helios 44-2 moded ?
Thanks! You mean cine modded? It's not. I saw some really cool 3D printed rehousings but mine is a 44m not a 44-2, with the aperture ring towards the rear.
I want this! (Without the track ball)
Where would one buy quality blank keycaps?
A wireless charger one would be dope
There’s a handwired version with repurposed sensor??
I have question. Can i put encoder on the left and trackball on the right. How can i code for two module diffirent .
I am looking for something like this but with a trackball on each side of the keyboard. Is there a way of doing this?
How did you film it so neatly? I want to see the camera setting and the surroundings.
Thanks! The surroundings were a mess held together with gaffer tape and good wishes. I will be moving into a new place and a "proper" studio will be one of the priorities (and maybe then I'll also show some behind the scenes).
Did you guys code in the angle of the optical sensor? Or is it controlled in software somewhere?
How about you integrate a vertical mouse on the keyboard? this has been my ultimate productivity dream!!
Try integrating a mouse wheel/roller for the left thumb.
I’d like to try this without the trackball, with a removable trackball or interchangeable joystick option. I’m not a fan of the trackball as well due to lack of precise movement, whereas a thumbstick is more familiar and less drift-y.
Could you share the typing website please? it looks so cool. would be really appreciate.
It's monkeytype.com with the miami nights theme.
Very nice build. I have a question though. Which PCB did you use for the 3x6 version? I found a 3x6 Dactyl manuform flexible PCB.
Thanks! We used the tbk mini pcb.
@@EIGAtech Thank you very much. Found it and will try and build the Charybdis now :D
What is the site/program you used to calculate the typing consistency?
It's monkeytype.com
Where i can get this beautiful green trackball!? I need it!
Look for Perixx trackballs on Amazon.
I have an ender 5, but it looks like it would take me two days to print just one side of a dactyl :( I may end up buying a kit, but I do wish I could buy something like a moonlander but with a good thumb trackball or trackpad
nice !
I want to make one how much did the build cost you?
Seria bueno que al costado derecho de tu carcasa del TRackball tuviera los botones del click del mouse...
I don't think the track is suppose to be for the thumb but rather the index finger
i use a trackball for work, and the first thing I thought when I saw this was how bad that trackball placement is for ergo/realistic use, it looks so uncomfortable to use. still curious to try it though B)
It's nice to have it there for quickly throwing the cursor around but yeah, ergonomics are not ideal... Make sure you subscribe though, because I will have some really cool trackball content after the next video 👀
Where can we buy this alrady built?