@@vladpopa6624 Or a nasus with items, he can just press ghost, run at you in a straight like and spam W>Q on you until you die. Once nasus has levels and ability haste he can basically cast W again almost as soon as his previous W effect expires. The slow isn't even the worst part usually, it's the attack speed debuff it applies so you can't even fight back.
Gotta love picking aphelios or kai'sa and having the support go "huh, damage carry, you know what you're missing? Damage!" And then they int, and one cannot play because there is no outplay potential from behind and with no way to disrupt the enemy's damage output
to be fair. you have about 20% of the control over that too. Its not like the class functions without 4 people helping it XD. you cant only play riven, irelia and fiora, then complain the class that require 4 chimps protect it at all times or they dont function, doesnt function when you ignore their existance. XD
@@einjharrelraca lowkey retard take, adc needs peel to survive the early game, if an adc gets even slightly ahead samira jinx caitlyn or whoever can just 1 shot the whole enemy team even if they have 4 orangutans on their team
Adc's needs items that only they can build that offset their squishyness. The main problem with buffing adc items is that it makes characters that build them but are not adc's (like yone) feel awful to play against. ShieldBOW was supposed to be an adc item but became core on yasou and yone for so long.
Some years ago, support was always the role that was in high demand whenever I queued, which lead me to become a support main cuz I hate waiting. These days, I never see support in high demand anymore. Botlane is the one that's always lacking. That is CRAZY to me, and kinda lead me to play a lot more botlane. I hate it. I hate it so much. I hate whenever I lose a lane for whatever reason and I am still forced to build full damage. I hate that they removed the defensive options like Frozen mallet. If you lose early, you are just forced to be useless for the rest of the game unless you get lucky and sneak in some kills. For a careful player like me, who mainly plays for the mid/lategame. I really hope it changes.
I dont play adc, but atleast with ashe or senna they still have good support capabilities. Maybe someone like jhin with his traps, his long ranged root and ult that cam coral enemies while slowing them (he was actually an s tier support a few months ago because of these facts)
@thelordofthelostbraincells As an ADC, I despise senna. Especially when she goes "look at me, I'm the ADC now" and I'm like kay there's nothing to be done.
I play on Brazil server and I put support as main role, mid secondary and since I came back to league in season 12 I WAS NEVER autofilled on secondary. Come to brazil
Its easy to fix this problem: Start removing dashes, shorten CC durations and convert knockups into tenacity affected CC again. And while you are at it, significantly cut damage on most things that dont need it
I mean. You took the "long range glass cannon" and left it with only the glass part. 83/93 "melee" champions in this game have tools that outrange a rapidfire cannon caitlyn. And every other class is doing the same, if not more damage than the adc until 4 items. Also karthus fucked off of botlane because of the exp gutting they got. He relies SUPER hard on getting his rank 2 ultimate, and most of the time, no botlaner is getting their ult rank 2 in time for them to matter.
^ this. This right here You made EVERYTHING in the game a cannon so now we are just glass without a purpose because our damage is equal to or lesser than any other role usually. Plus the Exp gouging means we are a lot slower to level (especially the support) which also means we are even further behind.
@@0MidnighttheDragon0 i've been barking up that tree for a long time dude lol. people still like to say "the exp gap isnt that bad", while we just watched a top laner go 6 levels up on his own turbo winning botlane with a 20 cs lead, in worlds XD. like. the best players in the world in the role cant even get close to competeing. fun fact, on average, a champion level up is 973 gold in stats (ima say 1k for the sake of math). meaning solo laners are handed a 3-6k gold lead in stats for the role they picked. Its actually disgusting.
@@einjharrelraca I've been complaining about ADC's place for like...7 years now I think? at least. People will say "adcs arent that bad/are good" and I'm just...I'm SEVERELY against the judgement of "ah yes, because the top 0.5% of the playerbase is able to play them, that means they are in a good place. We should totally be balancing around less than 1% of the game's playerbase. but yea to see like...even PRO players put in situations like that it's just...sad. I've legit had games where I leave lane like 10/2, go up against the 0/2 top laner (Sometimes I've got 2 whole items on them or damn close to it) and then they just...easily get on me and kill me with shitloads of damage while I tickle them. it's NOT fun...
@@sandlewood7563 oh, you mean the support that also does everything the adc does, and more until 26 minutes into the game, just like everyone else. but also takes half of the adc exp just to abandon them at minue 5+ to perma roam the map after setting you behind 3 levels on the solo lanes? XD that guy?
I quit League because my Leona was active walking and standing behind me. She wanted me to engage and her to follow up. It's literally impossible to play.
FACTS. I'm an ADC main and this comment right here is my games. Even when i'm lucky enough to have an engaged supp they stand behind me and take no action. So I get poked out of lane. Half of what playing tanky engage support is just looking like you are going in but never actually go in.
Just the other day I had a renata that went to ward river at 2 minutes into the game right as we are hitting lvl 2. Gotta have that river ward at 2 minutes into the game instead of pressuring on lvl 2 spike! Support players are beyond clueless and yet I see so many of them flame their adcs, which don't get me wrong I've played support before and there are plenty of awful adcs. However even when support players get good adcs who want to pressure lvl 2 and it's a good matchup to do so in... supports just stand still in the bushes or behind you in lane. Supports 9/10 times on YOUR team have zero concept of bush control and concede ALL pressure bot lane by letting the enemy support take the middle bush for free. Supports also don't know to hold waves for their ADC if they had died or are coming back from recalling to save them a wave and deny the enemy adc one as well. I could list dozens of easy-to-fix early game mistakes that supports make but they don't have any interest in fixing them because there's no incentive to. This is the crux of the problem with support as a role. While it does have a high skill ceiling it has the lowest skill floor of any role in the game. You can walk up after not autoing the wave to help get lvl 2 first so the enemy gets it instead and then die and not a single aspect of your game has changed. You're not behind as levels barely matter at all for support past lvl 3 and lvl 6 break points. You're not cs'ing so you're not missing gold either. It's a badly designed role that incentivizes laziness.
Thats so true, ADC needs time to scale (farm for items and levels) if the enemy team has a competent assassin player or whatever, your more f##ked then that image of the white woman sitting on the couch with 5 black guys standing behind her. Adc is the ultimate feast or famine character class
Not even that. A good tank is all they need to completely ruin you. Wtf are you gonna do if you get engaged by a Malphite Yasuo. Even a 20/0 Draven gets fucked there.
@@streptococo4735 my villian arc started after being 16/0 level 16 and 4 items on jinx. and getting instant killed 100-0 by a level NINE talon with JUST A DIRK who missed his w return after he was afk for the first 17 minuts of the game. -.-
Part of the problem is there is way too much target access. It's almost every champ, every game, has ways to get right on top of the adc with almost no counterplay. You have assassins with 2 or 3 blinks/dashes 1 shotting you, you have things like ryze, tahm, TF, teleporting on top of you and cc'ing, you have invisible one shotters rengar, eve, khaz, honorable mention to twitch and ashkan, You have champs coming through walls like kayne, skarner, talon, champs flying over walls aureleon, nocturne, or champs like yasou who can windwall your whole kit, yone presses E gets free ghost, wiffs his ult, wiffs his q dash, then just runs at you and auto auto W for a free kill, then theres champs who just have ungodly speed rammus, nunu, hecarim. All of these things are going to get on top of you and either cc you and kill you or just out dmg you. They need to increase ADC range across the board, and buff their base movement speeds.
I got two points in my mind, One is, marksman are used in top, mid, sup so they don't seem that bad, and still mainly used in bot while some metas were totally apc for example The other point is, I feel the issue is like the Vel Koz issue, since Vel Koz release, all new champs have dashes, or at least something to make them faster, movement speed is everywhere, and the thing is that, what made them strong was that range that makes them """safe""" but now they're not
Also ppl play ADC on mid and top for two reasons 1. You're not behind in XP as you would from sharing on botlane so you don't feel that weak 2. Sometimes you just had such terrible supports, fucking up the whole lane that the next game you wanna play solo but you wanna play your fav champion I'm an Aphelios main and since he scales so much from lvls it's so great to play him on mid even tho the matchups are tough. But at least if I lose its only by my mistake, not bc my support does terrible play and I'm the one to blame
I don't play adc but i believe that they should being back the 25% crit on items so that adcs could slot a defensive item as last instead of another crit item
It would help but why would it be a mistake, why should u need to buy 5 items for 100% crit when u could slot a defensive instead as last item or any other item that can make a difference in a specific game
@spyronanya6790 It might start that way, but it will become another slot for a damaging item. An ADC would go for attack power over defense all the time. There is a reason the only not damaging item (the guardian angel) is always at the end, and in most games, it does not make sense to buy it.
I think changes to crit are a possible solution and it could go one of two ways. Bringing back 25% crit can help bcuz on the champs that NEED that 100% for thier damage (jinx comes to mind) it means that itemization for a specific games doesnt happen; you have the crit items for aa heavy and thats it really. If you really need a spell shield too bad, your dps fall off makes it too hard. Only needing 4 would make it viable to build a defensive option sooner when it makes sense becuse you arent cutting your legs off. Another solution would be to make sure every meaningful/impactful item utility can be found on a crit item. Kraken slayer has the idea right; adjusting anti tank to fit a crit builder in how it functions vs botrk. To my knowledge we still dont have a spell shield,stasis, dash (rip galeforce), or health option. I understand burst IS adc counterplay but with uow beefy tanks are and how bursty EVERYTHING is they need to either give a little more tool adcs to have interaction with burst damage or take from the other two functions. I think going the 25% ceot route actually helps the cost/benefit of something defensive because otherwise you end up with just everything but it being gimped so much it doesnt really do its function any more on an adc (shieldbow). Thank you for attending my ted talk
imo ADC as a role or concept is now gone. dmg is so abundant that their unique trait of being the dps is now gone. look at the adcs that have been meta and high wr. lucian went from win lane burst poke to a late game controller with his ult. varus went lethality poke. senna, thats it, just senna in general. lethality kalista now recently. kogmaw had a stint of ap in mid. vayne recently has been picked more top than adc. twitch adc is gone, ap is the game. ashe went support/poke. smolder isnt even an adc but a caster mage. the era and purpose of adc is gone. instead i refer to it just as bot lane. any champ with range and/or scaling is paired with a support to help them survive, which is why the mages have thrived there. another point is, look at how little actually traditional adcs ACTUALLY autoattack in fights. its very little. going the one shot pick out an enemy is just more efficient in the current cc meta.
Gone? Or do you mean replaced? In any case, do you notice a pattern here? Very few adc's build crit items. And that is because if you build crit you are way too vulnerable early game. You give up 25 minutes of the game in which you dont have 100% crit chance, minutes you could've spent actually having an impact in the game. But REMEMBER! Riot wants adcs to be tied to botlane so support role can exist, so any strategy that deviates from adcs being built crit and being lategame damage dealers will get nerfed eventually.
Yeah right now crit ADCS are super strong, including Twitch, but all it takes is to revert the buffs they got on their items and they're back to the gutter
@@minimoYT yeah but it feels like they come online so late into the game. twitch crit is good but so late into the game, while ap twitch is online right after 1 item. i guess it is balanced for pro play where adcs have a lot more gold and are accelerated more. marksmen have kinda pivoted away from the dps builds into oneshot builds since they are able to function earlier and work better with the catcher/cc meta.
Dps is "weak" right now because tanks that stack resists are offmeta, in favor of bruisers who build a mix of damage/health (the only exception being ksante). You don't need DPS if the mages and bruisers can kill themselves. Added to this, Azir is the strongest laner in this season (best mage for dps) and early fighting is necessary since grubs/soul are win conditions. DPS ADCs need 3-4 items AND a peel support, and a 4 item kog with a lulu isn't worth giving dragon soul + baron. Just watch S7 janna/lulu snoozefest games to see how current ADC meta is not only much healthier for the game but many times more enjoyable.
One huge part of the problem is tanks. Since other lanes are consistenly 2 levels above your lane and they dont rely on items as much, they can just easily fight you. Add to it the immense amount of utility and damage even some of the very tanky champs have. Like there is no trade off. Build Heartsteel Tahm Kench top and you can run the ADC down while they stand behind thei teammates
The way to fix ADC is to fix their handlers. (Their handlers being Jungle and especially Support). The ADC needs someone to frontline and peel for them. The worst thing you can do to your ADC is NOT give them a frontline. This is important at ALL stages of the game. The ADC should NEVER be the one in the front. The ADC should only, in rare cases, be left to fight alone WHEN they have plenty of vision and a lead. Otherwise, the ADC should ALWAYS be accompanied by a frontliner with peel.
Thats why as adc you learn to take mid wave every 30s and play around your team inbetween. Success on adc in soloq is like how good can you see what you have to do to be safe and damage at the same time. If youre really good at it, youre gonna be a good adc.
Critis quite simply a coin flip stat, if they are allowed to get enough if it within the length of the game and you get peeled assuming your worth your weight in gold you get to have all the impact in the world, you die once to any champ in the game with a flank angle You've just come the maps new favorite long sword or amp tome dispensary....
You are definitely right about damage creep hurting ADC the hardest, because it takes the only job of the adc, and let's literally everyone else be able to do it just as well if not better. It's not uncommon to see the enemy support out-DPSing their adc through most of a game. It just makes you feel like your job doesn't matter anymore, at least not until you can get at least 3 items. I would nerf the damage of tanks and supports at least to help fix it, but I don't really know for sure what could fix things. The most frustrating thing about playing ADC for me right now is just how impactful and strong support is right now, like if there is a large skill gap between your support and the enemy support, there really isn't much you can do, usually absolute best case scenario is you go even and hope the top lane, jungle, and mid lane dice roll goes in your favor, but if you play main an adc that is strong early game like me and tries to use the strong early game to make your mark during mid game, it's REALLY painful when your support is gapped, especially if you are against a late game scaling adc. Like if you are playing an adc who is strong early with leona support against kog'maw with a squishy enchanter support for example, but your leona is playing like she's sona supporting smolder or something vs a draven nautilus. Always behind you never wanting to go in, and you just have to watch as your time slowly runs out as kog'maw, jinx, or whatever late game hypercarry scaling adc can happily free farm. It's about as painful when something goes wrong in bot lane and the moment things aren't looking good, even temporarily, your support just decides to permanently become the second jungler and you are forced to give the enemy adc first tower with all plating and lose a ton of farm and exp yourself. I understand roaming for support can be really good, but I wonder if they are calculating or even considering if the impact their permanent roaming is having is worth both you and them to lose a ton of exp, you losing a ton of farm, and the enemy adc getting the first tower probably with all platings.
some supps literally just int games by not understanding wave management 😭 id rather have my supp afk under turret than fuck up my cs or feed the enemy kills. honestly even just a supp w a decent cc sitting under turret doing NOTHING is enough pressure to keep them from totally diving me most times
@@marshxmalluw True that's a pretty big problem too sometimes, if your supp just mindlessly tries to push all the time, not thinking about if it might be better to freeze, slow push, or whatever else instead.
I'm a main ADC and tbh the crit buffs aren't that effective we need 25% crit per item again since mythics are gone, on-hit adcs are so more tankier since they can build like anything that is crazy and still deal crazy damage.
Tbh I’ve had a decent run on my new account, issues started in emerald when its basically flip to see if your topside ints, if not, autowin, if they int, autolose :)
here's what you do, and I am pretty confident about this: NERF SUPPORT. Revert the stupid buffs they have been getting year over year. Let the better adc win bot lane.
I’m a 100% casual player. I very rarely play solo queue and when I do I usually do with a 5 stack. ADC is a role dreaded by everyone though, despite being the only role that plays with someone else for most of the match (second place being either jungle support and usually being the role most people want). Usually we’ve got to either roll or all play fill to decide who got the short end of the stick. I play with like 10 people and I think maybe one of them likes to play ADC and that’s as his secondary pick. I’m not smart enough to say why it’s bad, imo it’s just really not compatible with casual players + supports like vel’koz or brand being able to casually permanently push you off a lane while two people clobber you isn’t helping it much. Point is though that if playing ADC feels like a chore for everyone; even if it’s good it’s not really in a great place
Riot permanently talk about how they would fix the entire issue about mobility creep, damage creep and oneshot meta. But the community will not listen. Because the answer they came up with is the hottest take in game history: REMOVE ALL ASSASSINS (and skirmishers). Of course Riot will never do that the game would die in an instant. But at least with skillshots you can kite them out and dodge but assassins have 0 counterplay and only one playstyle: 1 v 9. There is no leanroom here. Either Assassins are viable and unmobile champions are semi dogshit. Or Assassins are dogshit and all the boosted players stop playing and the game is dead.
I don't think actual assassins are the problem. Like Zed, Talon and LeBlanc can burst a carry 100-0, but they don't have the juice to keep going after 2 kills and getting a third guy low, that's if they're really fed. A skirmisher like Briar, Irelia or Viego can just keep going. They have enough damage to burst a squishy, but their cooldowns aren't long, and they have good sustained damage, on top of being tankier, and still having good mobility, those are the "1v9" champions, at least much more than the average assassin is
@@minimoYT That is not the problem... The problem is they can dodge skillshots and have/had less cooldowns. Yes i mentioned skirmishers and they have issues too. But the real Problem are still Assassins because they can make entire classes useless. You can't even leave base in mid to late game. it is what it is.
I'm reminded of when I first swapped from LoL to Smite and being floored at the idea of the support's job being to roam after level 4. Made it way easier for my marksman to keep up with the rest of the team, and I could actually help our jungler set up ganks and ward the whole map without getting flamed for leaving. I don't think something like that would work in LoL in its current state. The ADC would just get spawn camped. Buffing and nerfing random champs or items is not going to solve the problem. They need to rework the entire exp and gold system for the duo lane if they're going to have the 3 lane setup. Or figure out a way to let the support roam without making them completely useless from lack of levels and gold.
When I play ADC, I just tell my support to take my kills, cs and my virginity. Still a virgin, but I won the game, so I’ll take victories where I can. 💪😔
Ya I love the full tank tahm kench being able to hit me for 2k in 2 seconds while full build because I made one small misstep. Meanwhile If I wanted to kill the tahm, it would take two people to peel him, while me doing straight dmg plus kiting for 15 seconds to even effectively kill him xD
Karthus is one of the mages with a sustained damage. Essentially he is a marksman, but with skillshots instead of autoattacks, and magic damage instead of physical. Even more extreme example is Cassiopeia. I think she's not played botlane more only because of the weak range on her E. I've had a lot of success with the reworked Aurelion Sol bot too. The only real gripe with battle mages bot is the limited sieging capability. Basically any champion with a promising late game can be played bot, but you have to make sure to keep the AP/AD balance in check.
i think giving adc better tools to scale safly would help support reliance (better gold from jungle camps, tools to play safe in lane and just lose less, ways to stall the game)
Its a very deep sistemic error that the enemy engage tank can just walk up and kill you even more with the new item changes, now that giant slayer is gone is even worse to play adc without bork which is not every adc who can build.
the removal of armor/mr shards indirectly nerfed karthus because apparently 90% of the time, they would always choose armor against karthus even in higher elos.
It's quite hard to make ADCs appealing to play, there are simply too many factors. You want to make ADC self sufficient? Sure, but be prepared for new top marksman meta. Top laners are now mad and either they need an early sustain or damage buff. Revert to 25% crit? Now Rioters have to spend little more time on fixing Yone, Yasuo, Jhin and etc. crit scaling. Not even mentioning that defensive 3/5th item could be a bit painful for assassins. Regardless of the role, a league player usually wants to be the main character on the rift, that's the real problem. Overall the role is in a good state (except few picks like twitch) and can easily carry games if well peeled. Eventually if we really wanted to buff adc early it should be some items build paths. Exclusive to ADC item components that arent 1100g and give 20AD (yes, I'm talking about you Warhammer with 88% gold efficiency).
Or some exclusive doran interaction on adc that whenever you are close to X champ with Y support item you gain Z stats for next 8 to 12 minutes. That would not only would buff a bit early but also could make supports consider if it's really a good time to roam or not instead of walking from lane to lane.
Botlane is no more frustrating to play than toplane. I play all roles and can say that this video's frustrations are often echoes of toplane with different specifics. Matchup greatly impacts your lane as well as jg, and the role is often infested with invaders (see the adcs and mages breaking top a few patches ago like tf and Smolder to name a few) that make the experience awful. Falling behind hurts you more than mid cuz you cant roam as often as they can, and you will often lack burst to do much in the name of "outplaying" most of the time when behind. (Unless you play a particularly controversial champion.) Frankly, this just feels like "pointing at how the sky being blue and blue depresses me" complaint. Adcs by default are the best damage dealers in the game because they melt not just champions, but structures and objectices with ease. Its the main reason why even if behind, they must be focused first. They are the team's backbone and while other classes can try to carry, they never posses the imminent threat of an adc with their items at the ready. Burst from mages or assassins is deadly, but they have to deal with cooldowns or commitment, where as adcarries are usually only limited by attack animations (hence why they loveto bully mages in mid). Fighters do abit of both abilities and autos to attack, but they naturally try to do abit of everything while usually excelling at none until their build completes. Then there's tanks and true supports (enchanters and catchers) who by default deal damage the lowest or slowest. Assuming they even manage that and arent just relegated to cc bots.
And you didn't even mention divers toplaners, if you're behind, you can play as safe as you want, they'll dive you, kill you, and you'll be even more behind.
I can totally understand when people hate the role or at least hate how bad it can feel. But that almost never translates to them actually being weak. What they can lack in agency early they make up for in dps and scaling.
That's nonsense. Yes top lane has its own struggles like being the heaviest counter pick-reliant lane and JG pressuring but guess what? JG pressure isn't exclusive to top lane my guy. Damn near every game I am getting enemy JG on my dick bot lane. If top lane had champions that I found fun to play I would play it in a heartbeat over bot lane. From minute 1 as adc you have a drooling toddler shackled to your ankle who can single handedly choose to lose you the game regardless of any mistakes you do make or if you make none at all. I've had velkoz supports blind face check enemy tri lvl 1 for funsies and die to the enemy kaisa naut and blow flash, come back to lane, and die again. Boom, not even the first wave of lane phase and my enemy laner has a 700 gold lead on me. Did they play well? No, they simply won the support coinflip in matchmaking. That's the issue of adc. Top laners bitch about junglers camping them but guess what? Support is the same shit except they are shackled to you, leeching exp so you are 2-4 lvls down on solo lanes for no fault of your own. Imagine instead of the enemy JG farming their camps and THEN ganking you if they just got to sit in your lane and make it impossible for you to lane, you get poked out under tower or dove and lose more, etc. It's literally the same bullshit top laners bitch about except it's not just when the enemy JG shows up. It's from the very first wave until either tower in the lane falls. Also nowadays top laners bitching about ranged tops or mages is literally happening to bot lane now. We exist in an era of bot lane where mages are actually better than marksmen champs and if the enemy bot laner picks on having seen you lock in a marksmen well you just want to GP Q yourself. And this is where it gets worse than top lane because not only is the matchup 1v1 not good but you have another player in your lane. Say they are dogshit and feed or fuck up your wave so its pushing now and you cant get it to crash. Now you are fucked in a matchup that was already rough to begin with.
The worst part of playing adc is the moment when your support picks something useless like lux, takes your waves, dont poke enemy etc. and enemy support is leona or something tank engage just pressing R, you die and your support types something stupid
Doesn’t help that we move into item metas and damage creep from over the year is crazy. Marksmen at the end of the day will also be skill issue kind of deal while like you said team comp. A lot of learning mechanics. Plus if they strong they end up everywhere mid top. It’s a tough balance.
Maybe Riot shouldn't have made a class with so much ranged consistent dps which requires a support to scale into the lategame. All those nerfs to adc solo laners? They're because riot NEEDS to have adc's botlane for whatever reason. There has been many times where other roles such as mages were played in botlane rather than adc's. Guess what? Riot nerfed those strategies. And i'm not talking about champions abusing broken mechanics. Im talking about targeted nerfs to legitimate botlane champs that are not adc's. You said it yourself. Ziggs botlane? Lol. Seraphine botlane? Go back to support. And these are the two most recent. The same thing happens otherwise: Riot hates adcs being played in solo lanes and strives to nerf them when played that way, for no discernible reason other than "muh botlane needs two adc's and two supports". The only way for Adc's to be more fun to play is to let them be more self-sufficient. They used to be able to build durability items. Nowadays you need 5 crit items to get 100% crit, but years ago you only needed 4 so you could have a tanky item slot. But guess what? That would mean you would see way more adc's in solo lanes and Riot hates that. Shit like that is why adc is a pain in the ass to play, because Riot has engineered adc's to be a babysat role, because they need an unstoppable lategame hypercarry that gets killed by a 0/2 bruiser, because they think that's what people want to see, because they literally haven't bothered to think outside their narrow viewpoint. >inb4 riot know what they are doing Reminder that for the vast majority of league's history crit items gave 25% crit >inb4 "dude people still play lots of adcs in solo lanes just look at [niche counterpick] and [sololane adc being allowed to be played for 3 months before being hit by solo-lane nerfs] edit: apparently riot are going back to 25% crit on item rather than 20%. Better late than never I guess. Watch them fuck it up regardless though.
ADCs are strong by nature, and thus Botlane is made to hinder them Riot enforces doesnt want us to play out of the box strategies, they pretty much want a formulaic gameplay, that's why any different strategy is immediately put down
I think you kinda missed the point of why damage creep is bad for ADCs especially. The burst is of course troublesome - but thats not all of it. For one: If damage is high and tankiness is low, ADCs have much less of a role. Why go for a high dps class when everyone has high dps, alongside other boons like better burst, utility, range or durability? Additionally, another class that is impacted very heavily by a high damage meta are Bruisers. They struggle being durable enough and oftentimes opt for one-shot builds due to that. It also leaves ADCs with far less of a frontline to play around. Tanks are of course their most important teammates - tank both allow ADCs to do their job AND give them a reason to be picked. But Bruisers are very similar to that, as they both frontline for their ADCs and give a target where dps is strong for ADCs. And going back to the burstiness of the game, I think stuff like a full combo from a mage, assassin or diver killing an ADC is not a problem. The problem is that even stray skillshots are an absolute killer these days. CC durations are also across the board WAY too long if you dont have tenacity(which ADCs cant get), exarcerbating this issue. It's one thing to get stunned by Veigar and die to a Q+W+R. Its a much different thing if getting hit by a single Q chunks half your health away.
I’d simply add some extra range to marksmen to be able to position better and keep the distance from threats. Then good adcs would become harder to kill and would require smarter engagement from assassins as opposed to just press R and see where it goes. Just an idea tho.
another big problem is there are barely any defenisve adc options, like genuinely, i like to dabble into adc now and again, but when it comes to buying a defensive option that gives me crit, there is none, which is stupid, and the only option for mr is qss item, which you dont always need, so if you want both mr and armour with crit you cant essentially, even terminus doesn't have crit attached, so its more of a windshitter item. ONTOP of this they dont have a rush lifesteal option anymore, shieldbow sucks and bt you have to be atleast lvl 16 for the passive to do anything. the item pool for adc is all damage, no sustain, no defense, just offense.
Usually what I see for hypercarries at least is building 2 core damage items, one situational damage, and the fourth item will be a non-ADC defensive item, like going Randuin's on Vayne and Kog or something like a Maw on Jhin
The only true problem with most ADCs is the mobility, you can't outrun anything, literally anything else will catch up. Thus there is a huge resurgance of Ghost Spell picked on ADCs , its becoming more common that heal at this point. And even that is not enough to fix that problem. And If you want more chances to actually get to gain mobility then you have to specialize runes and build for that, but then you give up anything else for a cookie cutter built at this point.
Okay but it's COMPLETELY true. I'm Mid/support main. But because my friend is bigger support main I decided to play adc more and it's pitfull. So I had a good game where I was 10/2 twitch with 3 items and boots. I decided to help team mate near baron pit and there was 1/6/2 morderkaiser. I threw poison used ult and he just went towards me, I kitted him, he threw a ult on me, got insane amount of shield, no big deal I have flash and botrk, but no he flashed and clapped me with Q and auto. Sooooo a fed adc two level above him with full HP lost to 1/6 morderkaiser with 60 percent of HP? Why? Another was when I was full AD and lethality Ezreal with essence river, and I went against Mundo who was mainly MR because we had 3 AP champions. I couldn't kill him. He took half of my HP with heartsteel auto. How? Idk Ksante just ignores everything and one shots adc despite being too mobile tank. Yone can miss everything and still kill you with autos and chase you from the fountain to the middle of the map. Tanks and Assassins are too broken. Supports deal more damage than Adc in most cases. I had 5x the damage my adc did as a brand. Definetly balanced.
@@Let.me.think.of.a.name. because this is a team game, and if everyone wants to carry, they end up never doing their actual job like tanking or supporting
Nah just remove support. 90% of the frustrations of bot lane come from having a room temp IQ toddler shackled to your ankle leeching exp and feeding the enemy adc gold so you don't even get the chance of trying to skirmish and duke it out.
I love ADC its with top Lane my most favourite Role, I personally just think that dog should go down on every singe class (especially on tanks). If u are a good ADC player or have at least decent mechanics and u want to climb just pick adcs that u can pay support like AP Twitch or Senna (the Marksman designed for baby’s or at least people without hands). In a Nutshell the role Bot Lane feels really bad to mid.
Personally I would reduce the ratio of AP damage converted to turrets, I totally agree that AP champions should be able to push and get plates but right now any champion that builds nashors/lichbane can shred turrets really fast as the AP scaling into turret damage is a bit too big. Turrets drop way too fast now anyway and I think AD marksmen generally should have the best push potential on turrets (outside of passives or runes) I think one of the biggest problems with ADCs for modern LoL is that every role has a carry position now, Veigo or Briar has just as much potential to hard win a 5v5 as any marksman can and carry the teams needs is raw DPS output. Because there is so little need to have a marksman to do dps, there is much less incentive for many players to play for there marksmen over anyone else who can do the same, if you look at how competitive pros play the ADC has a team that is literally willing to int so there carries can win a team fight which would just never happen in a soloQ game. All in all marksmen are fun and I still play them but yeah its totally reasonable to see that ADC isn't the most ideal for soloQ as the cards are generally more stacked against you than for other positions to overcome
The friend who dragged me into league who has been playing since the first season told me that : If Jhin is near top tier, it probably isn't the meta for adcs
i am gonna be honest. I think ADC is in a fine spot currently. Being an ADC feels strong and impactful. We just aren't the actual solo carries anymore like in the old seasons. We are Damage supports for the team. Just like... let me get the waves that are coming in and dont 2 skill them, before going to do it to another wave, since when i have to walk up a lot in midgame to get the money i need, i *will* die. And with everything i know i sometimes think and complain about, i dont think you could make any of my wishful adjustments without breaking the role in half and making the rest of the map just turn into: "How can we babysit our ADC/destroy the opponent ADC"
Been honest I`ve seen a few pros and ex pros talking about and the problem to be honest is the fact that support is extremely op, the deal to fix that would be nerf supports but then no one wants to play support and riot already show us that they are not going on that direction so idk
dont really see any real ways to balance this problem honestly. at the moment riot started making champs with dashes and gap closer that was kinda the end of it. These days im surprised when a new champ dont have at least 2 dashes or two gap closers. thing is they kinda had to do that since adc in the early meta of the game where kinda the only reason that you would win or lose a game. If your adc was ahead in that time it was kinda over unless your top laner did not pick like jax or trynda. At this point the only solution i could see would be to give back defensive items for adc, like good ones that dont delay their power spikes too much or check most of the gap closers in the game and give them long cooldown so that if you have to use on you cant get it down to a 3 or 4 second cooldown. Need the engages tool to be something that force you to really think about going in and get hit by a decent to big penalty if you waste it. Of course if you do that you would probably need to nerf some damge from the adc since it would be harder to get to them but it would put back the focus on thinking and might even bring back the focus on gameplay like flanks,that while still being used today might be less focused on. Theres also the support problem but honestly i dont mind as an adc to have my support having impact in the early game if it means i will have impact in mid to late game. In the end im pretty sure we wont see any real change in the near future to the class. Riot put themselves in a tough spot with the way they decided to design the game over the years.
To me the answer to this is that ADC player can't play somethinc else than marksman. It's the only role where versatile champ pool isn't the norm. Marksman can be good in the good situation. Bruiser, mage, tank can fit pretty well in that role
It's not that at all. As is evident now ADCs are playing mages bot now more than ever. The issue is ADCs want to play marksmen. That's the most fun champs to play bot lane. Sure you can play mages but they aren't fun to play for the majority of bot laners. It's like imagine you are a mid laner who enjoys assassins and assassin items are trash and mages or tankier mids are stronger so you can't really make them work as well as before. Everyone has a preference of playstyle is my point. It's not a bot lane exclusive dilemma. Top laners prefer certain play styles too. Either they like tanks or they like annoying quirky champs like yorick teemo singed etc. or they like bruisers like jax fiora camille aatrox etc. Mids either like control mages, poke mages, assassins, mages with globals (tf, galio, taliyah), etc. Bot laners massively prefer marksmen because it's fun to out play someone with movement alone. Most adcs don't have get out of jail free cards and you have to out micro your character to dodge their abilities, bait out abilities so you can all in, etc.
as someone who just climbed out of emerald elo hell from emerald 4 to diamond playing adc only (started the season emerald 1 and one tricked kat just for fun until i dropped all the way to emerald 4), the role really is not as bad as people make it out to be. i've gone on 5+ game winstreaks solo carrying my teams as adc, and all the issues you mentioned about adc are really not as bad when you actually know what you're doing. of course, the issue is different in actual high elo. but for the average player (everyone below masters), if you're good enough, then you'll climb no matter the role. i honestly think its as simple as that
You might be underestimating how much harder it is to do as you did, though. I "climbed" to Diamond 3 playing mid lane, but it was more like coasting, because I could just do the bare minimum in lane and scale to teamfights then mysteriously just win. Playing ADC, at least in my experience, is sweating bullets from level 2 and remaining like that until a nexus explodes, and you also have to coordinate with a guy in your lane without voice comms. It's doable, but for sure it's harder to do
@@minimoYT oh for sure its definitely not as easy to climb as adc as it might be playing mid lane or even jungle, but it also isn't as hard as those subredditors make it seem. proper macro, map awareness, and decision making isn't something exclusive to adc, but having those three skills is essential if you wanna climb as ad, and its how I've been able to come back so many times from a losing position. besides, in the first place, if you play adc, you have to come to terms with the fact that you have less room for error than other roles. I've lost many games that I easily couldve won because i made ONE single mistake, and it cost the whole game. you can play perfectly the entire game and make one slip up near the end and lose the whole game. that's just the reality of playing this role. but like i said, if you're good enough (meaning you make as little mistakes as possible), then climbing as a bot main shouldn't be that hard. cheers for replying btw!
They need to lock some items that marksmen use to marksmen only like runaan’s hurricane. ADC items cannot be buffed because of the existence of skirmishers like the wind brothers and master Yi.
Ok, I think the biggest suggestion I could give for League as a whole around the ADC issue, is to make them not the only ones responsible for bot lane. Why are ONLY marksmen allowed down there with very few exceptions? And why is the lane balanced around ADCs and not ADCs and a support? Bot lane should be expanded to allow different types of champions down there. Making it so you won't ALWAYS see an ADC every game will take a lot of pressure off the ADCs backs
Riots excuse for the state of adc is that it would be too guaranteed to win if the items and the champions would work on their own. So the solution here would be to make adc s less "guaranteed" by changing every ranged auto attack in the game to a skill shot. Call it the "Zeri threatment". "Stand behind me" ,as braum would say it, could actually matter with every champion this way. Protecting your mate today like from a caitlyn ult ,would buff the teamwork thought, because it would apply to any ranged attack. And you could actually save yourself behind minions ,turrets or simply by dodging. Also Invisability or untargetablity would be hard nerfed and less unfun to play against as adc, because of them now being hittable by those chmapions. This would add another sklll check to adc and champions that have invisability mechanics. Due to that "Nerf" They could come up with many champion buffs and nerfs for Champions and for items. Toplane would appear to have completely new ways to play against Ranged Matchups. id Also change how Crit works. Id tie it to the marksman class and give individual simmilar mechanics to champions like Yasuo Yone or tryndamere who would lose a part of their identity and playstyle to it. I would change it into a bullet system like 25% crit= Jhin passive without reload timings.Call it the jhin threatment It would be visible clear and planable. They also could add a uncomplete item with the inspiration of jhin that could nt stack, while the full items have a Stackable Crit passive. That also would change that adc are without influence in the early game due to the predicted individual base damage champión and item buffs. They also would nt be that reliable on the support anymore, what funny enaugh would lead to supports that stay more often on bot. That leads also to "Outplay" Options due to Auto hits now being Dodgable. And Maybe to a comeback to adc s beeing played on mid regularly. But lets be Honest: Will the Video Game Company, that relies on players gettng a fast dopamine rush, by One Shoting the only Target that cant fight back in o,5 sec,, give this Target an Actual option to Fight back and erase the Random "Oh thats a high number" Moment for a more Fair distribution of those moments in the Playerbase? No, not if the Hell freezes over. Honestly a reason to quit for everyone who mains this Role.
It's hard to think about ways to make the role better to play since most of the problems are within how the role actually works. Maybe jinx is now the best adc, but you still are weak early game and can be 100/0 very quickly at any point in the game. A lot of the times in solo q if the only fed member of the team is the adc. It's hard to win since people want to be the main character instead of peeling the glass cannon.
I'm a bit late, but I think 14.10 is actually the most "correct" solution to rollback some of the most problematic changes that got us here. BUT, if the balance team's past is anything to judge by, I assume ADC will be nerfed jnto the ground again by S15. I don't really intend to flame them because they have been really improving the game since S14, but I've been conditioned to think like this over the past 6 years.
I think it's mostly the same for supports, if you're in soloqueue you can't trust anyone. So supports start playing shit like lux, xerath and zyra, so they can kill people and feel useful. The adcs start picking ziggs or seraphines or the like. For supports, even if you play an engager like a Leona or Nautilus sure, you have the agency to start the engages but, if no one follows, you're dead. If you play an enchanter and your carry(ies) sucks well, nothing you can do. So yeah, in soloqueue we usually will pick champs that can work alone and find your agency
there itemization is amazing imma be real cuz they get everything from building random adc items the problem is the characters are just high in gold cost to be affective
Literally 10 years ago: "I just dodged every single skill shot from the enemy team, I might be done to 20% health, but I can still play!" Today: "I dodged everything but yone ulted and then pressed e and killed me with aa. Nothing you can do."
No no no it's not like that at all. Yone ulted, missed 500dmg and setup, then pressed E, whiffed all his Qs, still proceeded to beat the shit out of you with autoattacks and undodgeable W.
The game was designed to be played in a aaa way, tanks are for tanking, adcs and mages for damage, supports for to support their carries, everything was fine. Than riot updated the game, but didn't update the adcs. They are still designed to be most effective when team helps them, and be useless when nobody helps them. The problem is that no one wants to protect adcs because everyone plays carries now
I quitted main adc to be a main anything else since the meta shifts so much. I was playing Shyvanna ap and with only 1 and a half item... I exploded the enemy Jinx that was smth about 10 ish kills or so. Yeah, if even get kills, position well, one mistake is enough to put you out of the game. Also I loved the meme of the penguin (IM BRAZILIAN, SO I KNOW WHAT IS WRITTEN HAHA)
the only way i can think to help adc is to gut the damage of everthing that isnt an assassin or adc. If i walk up to a bush that is unwarded a Kha SHOULD oneshot me that is MY fault. A full tank build 0/5 Mundo should not be able to one shot me. adc is supposed to be the role that does damage so riot should stop taking the one thing adc is supposed to do and letting every champ from ivern to leona do it just as well.
Not sure it will fix adcs in any way, but I always wondered, what if: -all marksmen will have reduced basic range; -all marksmen will have increased (accordingly) def stats; -crit items will give range. Like anyway League is doomed. Another wacky expirement will not make it worse.
Also in this season even if I completely win lane but 0/2 midlaner comes I'm dead And I'm useless Like even if I go 5/1 I still have 0 impact on the game. I would definitely do something about the fact that more than half of the champs oneshots others. Not just assassins, mages as well. Like assassins are supposed to be strong early, but weaker late unless hyper fed Mages shouldn't insta kill you from huge ass range by landing one skillshot and one point click ability. Not just adcs but any champion that deals dmg over time, any onhit champ, any champ that benefits from prolonged fights.. they have no chance now
I play ADC graves, since season 8, I just reached gold this split (I just played ADC cuz the role just perma-afk'd), I can tell you sometimes I NEED To build assassin items (serpent's fang (shields), voltaic cyclosword, collector). The most jarring thing as an ADC is when you have the snowball advantage (KDA, Tower, items, etc) but if you get killed once or can't find an opening because you're perma focused or have that impression, the game can instantly get turned around even if you're 15/5 as Ezreal (I also play/main him yes) with 4 items. One Randuin's and Thornmail's kills you so you need Lord Dominik's fast for late game, and if you don't have said item by that time, you get killed, team gets aced, death timers just gg for you (summary of course). I haven't seen the subreddit but yeah I can imagine the complaints of zero damage and just blame on other role, NGL cringe. But yeah that's my rant on ADC role. Also Ashe needs a dash on her e or something would be a more interesting character or freeze something that helps her sustain and Hated season 13 Items. Thank you
I have a clip of a Nilah player getting all their hp back in about 1.5 seconds, the items are the only way that ADC's can play. It's items or nothing, brother.
The problem is that playing adc correctly is not fun so people keep making mistakes. In lane nobody controls their wave, poke or do minor trades to win the lane and to set up the support for success. It’s insane the amount of time someone plays with Leona or Nautalis and just keeps pushing the wave instead of freezing, so they have space to all in. Also Adc are not that gold efficient compared to other roles meaning that they need the high farm in order for them to play on an even playing field, something low elo players can’t do especially since they can’t get farm that easily in mid game without good vision control unless they want to “abuse” bauses law. In team fights, they also need to constantly space against threats in a game where Yone can engage on you from a whole screen away without your teammates being able to peel and you just have to be really good at consistently dodging skill shots. Tl;Dr adc way too hard for slightly better ability to team fight and skirmish.
Also generally speaking bot lane is a joke , as a duo we can be winning bot so hard , getting CS lead, Kill lead, Tower lead, and then rotations start to happen and we are a joke vs the rest of their team. Like at that point why does bot lane even exist?
i dont see the complaints tbh. i play adc alot with friends and the class feels stupid op i swap between most of the champs but mostly nilah and off meta shit because its funny. but ill play ez jhin lucian and be fine. mostly a skill issue i think. mix of average player having bad mechanics and even worse macro so they constantly put themselves in losing situations and throwing winning states without realizing it
I think a big part is playing with friends. I have a ton of fun playing ADC occasionally with friends, even if the support is a random. But playing ranked solo queue as an ADC main is basically flipping a coin over and over on whether you get to play the game or not
@@minimoYTwill def concede friends help but even if I get adc by myself or supp is auto filled. Generally goes well. Really does seem like a discipline sorta thing where u gotta know my support is making a bad play don’t follow which is tilting but yeah its just yeah mental. I played jg for ages b4 transitioning to bot so yeah guess im more used to teammates screwing me over/dealing with it. Mute all in solo aswell Ofc to avoid trolls
What if all ADCs were given a Knockdown, or potentially Grounded ability? Cait's net, move it from Jinx's E to W, throw it onto linear abilities so the ADC can deny enemy melee champs from jumping through their entire range.
i just droped from g2 to almost s3 playing botlane. then i said f botlane started playing yasuo again(was a yas main years ago) and now its going up again. currently 2 games away from gold 4
One thing that would make the class feel infinitely better to play is nerfing marksman items on melee characters. Melee as a rule tend to have higher armor mr base movement speed and ad than marksman to account for the advantage of range. But that also makes it so that when items are decent on adcs they are ridiculous op on Melees then the melee characters get the item nerfed they get compensation buffs because one of their core items were nerfed and adcs are left to suffer in a viscious never ending cycle of dissapointment. Bork and deaths dance are nerfed on range characters along with a bunch of other good items. At least return the favor with the ridiculous ones like immortal shield bow that the wind shitters got nerfed while getting compensation buffs like 6 times.
To be fair, Shieldbow has been terrible for both ranged and melee since it stopped being a mythic in season 13. Other than it, ADC items aren't really a problem on melee, Shieldbow is gutted, Galeforce doesn't exist anymore, and on-hit is generally better on ranged champs anyway
@minimoYT they are currently kind 9f ok now with the new patch riot did bringing them back a few years essentially items wise but considering how games have been going I am expecting a BUNCH of marksman item nerfs in the future. Plus shield bow used to be a pretty good item until the wind shitters got it nerfed into the ground. It's not even a problem with mythic items it is the shield amount. Shield bow at base you buy for the shield however if the shield is ever good it will always be better on melee then ranged because they have the armor to back up the shield giving them another second or so to lifesteal or kill the enemy instead of just getting killed through the shield. We will see how the new split goes but I am fully expecting a wave of crit nerfs in the future.
i will only speak on my experience as a player who gets bored of repetitiveness i play all roles and i have climbed as far as as plat i have played in that elo ns mastery 7s 200k adcs that i stomped and i have lost lane i have seen it all and i go into every role from the mindset that there are people who play this role everyday and will destroy me if i go in without consideration and i end up stronger than them most of the time just by surviving lane what i see is that adc mains whant to be the hero BUT they actually need to be the consistent one and the cleanup after mid and top also they are pretty bad at trading but i think the more i climb the better they will be mechanicaly BUT there is NO other role in the gema where i can go and stomp a mastery 7 200k onetrick other than adc i dont know why but i can get the better of them most of the time as for the tanks out damaging everything YES thats a problem for the entire game i dont have a solution as of now
Kathus is still a good adc, I think he fell off cause there were so much better AP options (sera ziggs). I think he’s also very support reliant, nothing feels worse than missing Q’s when it really matters. 90% of adc mains would prefer picking a marksman over an AP champ if the power gap isn’t large.
All in all it's clearly the junglers fault, because what else could we blame. At least that is what all the ADC players tell me when I play jungle, be it my adc dying while i'm doing first blue buff near top, or the enemy adc when I steal a objective or kill them
I'm just tired and old and if I play a squishy auto attack reliant character I'll probably just keep losing so I'd rather play a support, I feel more rewarding being squishy but having abilities that can cc or empower my team and having no damage than auto attacking people to death it just feels to me that playing adc feels like playing an old indie game that is just about point and click on enemies, relying on raw clicking abilities and positioning, and it would be more entertaining to actually do less damage but have more utility, yes supports do that, but supports in this game were designed to be adc orbiters in the early game, making it kinda less entertaining to play I used to love playing ranged classes in mmorpgs, but in every mmorpg I played, archers or gunners were more of utility classes, of course they had their burst damage tools, but they were really good at things like scouting, setting traps, blinding or poisoning enemies or being distractions, and glass cannon was more of a thing for mages
you know it's bad when the 0/4 enemy tank out-dps's you
Rammus is every ADC's nightmare
Even worse: Malphite can build full tank and still one-shot you.
@@vladpopa6624 Or a nasus with items, he can just press ghost, run at you in a straight like and spam W>Q on you until you die. Once nasus has levels and ability haste he can basically cast W again almost as soon as his previous W effect expires. The slow isn't even the worst part usually, it's the attack speed debuff it applies so you can't even fight back.
@@michaellimone224 True, it's mobile tank that deals more damage and constantly heals and slows you.
If a melee champion doesn't beat a ranged champion in melee range, why ever play a melee champion?
Gotta love picking aphelios or kai'sa and having the support go "huh, damage carry, you know what you're missing? Damage!" And then they int, and one cannot play because there is no outplay potential from behind and with no way to disrupt the enemy's damage output
"I won't let you get farm until you start dealing damage"
“Nowadays, good things happen when I’m dead, so….” -Deft
adc is either absolutly broken or totally useless, and for some magical reason my botlane is always the one with 0 impact
Relatable
and my jungle support always go toplane so i get a 0/10 toplaner, crazy
to be fair. you have about 20% of the control over that too. Its not like the class functions without 4 people helping it XD.
you cant only play riven, irelia and fiora, then complain the class that require 4 chimps protect it at all times or they dont function, doesnt function when you ignore their existance. XD
@@einjharrelraca lowkey retard take, adc needs peel to survive the early game, if an adc gets even slightly ahead samira jinx caitlyn or whoever can just 1 shot the whole enemy team even if they have 4 orangutans on their team
Adc's needs items that only they can build that offset their squishyness. The main problem with buffing adc items is that it makes characters that build them but are not adc's (like yone) feel awful to play against. ShieldBOW was supposed to be an adc item but became core on yasou and yone for so long.
they should lock items to classes
@@cherno8336 This is how you kill creativity and build diversity.
Some years ago, support was always the role that was in high demand whenever I queued, which lead me to become a support main cuz I hate waiting. These days, I never see support in high demand anymore. Botlane is the one that's always lacking. That is CRAZY to me, and kinda lead me to play a lot more botlane.
I hate it. I hate it so much. I hate whenever I lose a lane for whatever reason and I am still forced to build full damage. I hate that they removed the defensive options like Frozen mallet. If you lose early, you are just forced to be useless for the rest of the game unless you get lucky and sneak in some kills. For a careful player like me, who mainly plays for the mid/lategame. I really hope it changes.
I dont play adc, but atleast with ashe or senna they still have good support capabilities.
Maybe someone like jhin with his traps, his long ranged root and ult that cam coral enemies while slowing them (he was actually an s tier support a few months ago because of these facts)
@thelordofthelostbraincells As an ADC, I despise senna. Especially when she goes "look at me, I'm the ADC now" and I'm like kay there's nothing to be done.
@@Let.me.think.of.a.name. Yeah I imagine that being annoying when your support is 10/2 and you're 4/3 and it's like... what to do about it, y'know?
I play on Brazil server and I put support as main role, mid secondary and since I came back to league in season 12 I WAS NEVER autofilled on secondary. Come to brazil
@bakaky0 Same, but for ADC on North American server
Its easy to fix this problem: Start removing dashes, shorten CC durations and convert knockups into tenacity affected CC again. And while you are at it, significantly cut damage on most things that dont need it
I mean. You took the "long range glass cannon" and left it with only the glass part.
83/93 "melee" champions in this game have tools that outrange a rapidfire cannon caitlyn.
And every other class is doing the same, if not more damage than the adc until 4 items.
Also karthus fucked off of botlane because of the exp gutting they got.
He relies SUPER hard on getting his rank 2 ultimate, and most of the time, no botlaner is getting their ult rank 2 in time for them to matter.
^ this. This right here
You made EVERYTHING in the game a cannon so now we are just glass without a purpose because our damage is equal to or lesser than any other role usually. Plus the Exp gouging means we are a lot slower to level (especially the support) which also means we are even further behind.
@@0MidnighttheDragon0 i've been barking up that tree for a long time dude lol. people still like to say "the exp gap isnt that bad", while we just watched a top laner go 6 levels up on his own turbo winning botlane with a 20 cs lead, in worlds XD. like. the best players in the world in the role cant even get close to competeing.
fun fact, on average, a champion level up is 973 gold in stats (ima say 1k for the sake of math). meaning solo laners are handed a 3-6k gold lead in stats for the role they picked. Its actually disgusting.
@@einjharrelraca
I've been complaining about ADC's place for like...7 years now I think? at least. People will say "adcs arent that bad/are good" and I'm just...I'm SEVERELY against the judgement of "ah yes, because the top 0.5% of the playerbase is able to play them, that means they are in a good place. We should totally be balancing around less than 1% of the game's playerbase.
but yea to see like...even PRO players put in situations like that it's just...sad. I've legit had games where I leave lane like 10/2, go up against the 0/2 top laner (Sometimes I've got 2 whole items on them or damn close to it) and then they just...easily get on me and kill me with shitloads of damage while I tickle them. it's NOT fun...
@@einjharrelraca If only there was a way to balance that weakness out, maybe some kind of support for them.
@@sandlewood7563 oh, you mean the support that also does everything the adc does, and more until 26 minutes into the game, just like everyone else.
but also takes half of the adc exp just to abandon them at minue 5+ to perma roam the map after setting you behind 3 levels on the solo lanes? XD that guy?
I quit League because my Leona was active walking and standing behind me. She wanted me to engage and her to follow up. It's literally impossible to play.
FACTS. I'm an ADC main and this comment right here is my games. Even when i'm lucky enough to have an engaged supp they stand behind me and take no action. So I get poked out of lane. Half of what playing tanky engage support is just looking like you are going in but never actually go in.
I had exact Nami around. Hate this type of attitude.
Just the other day I had a renata that went to ward river at 2 minutes into the game right as we are hitting lvl 2. Gotta have that river ward at 2 minutes into the game instead of pressuring on lvl 2 spike! Support players are beyond clueless and yet I see so many of them flame their adcs, which don't get me wrong I've played support before and there are plenty of awful adcs. However even when support players get good adcs who want to pressure lvl 2 and it's a good matchup to do so in... supports just stand still in the bushes or behind you in lane. Supports 9/10 times on YOUR team have zero concept of bush control and concede ALL pressure bot lane by letting the enemy support take the middle bush for free. Supports also don't know to hold waves for their ADC if they had died or are coming back from recalling to save them a wave and deny the enemy adc one as well. I could list dozens of easy-to-fix early game mistakes that supports make but they don't have any interest in fixing them because there's no incentive to. This is the crux of the problem with support as a role. While it does have a high skill ceiling it has the lowest skill floor of any role in the game. You can walk up after not autoing the wave to help get lvl 2 first so the enemy gets it instead and then die and not a single aspect of your game has changed. You're not behind as levels barely matter at all for support past lvl 3 and lvl 6 break points. You're not cs'ing so you're not missing gold either. It's a badly designed role that incentivizes laziness.
ADC is for PVE modes
Thats so true, ADC needs time to scale (farm for items and levels) if the enemy team has a competent assassin player or whatever, your more f##ked then that image of the white woman sitting on the couch with 5 black guys standing behind her.
Adc is the ultimate feast or famine character class
Not even that.
A good tank is all they need to completely ruin you.
Wtf are you gonna do if you get engaged by a Malphite Yasuo.
Even a 20/0 Draven gets fucked there.
@@streptococo4735 my villian arc started after being 16/0 level 16 and 4 items on jinx. and getting instant killed 100-0 by a level NINE talon with JUST A DIRK who missed his w return after he was afk for the first 17 minuts of the game. -.-
You know when its bad when full tank suprots 3 levels down can relialably oneshot you
Part of the problem is there is way too much target access. It's almost every champ, every game, has ways to get right on top of the adc with almost no counterplay. You have assassins with 2 or 3 blinks/dashes 1 shotting you, you have things like ryze, tahm, TF, teleporting on top of you and cc'ing, you have invisible one shotters rengar, eve, khaz, honorable mention to twitch and ashkan, You have champs coming through walls like kayne, skarner, talon, champs flying over walls aureleon, nocturne, or champs like yasou who can windwall your whole kit, yone presses E gets free ghost, wiffs his ult, wiffs his q dash, then just runs at you and auto auto W for a free kill, then theres champs who just have ungodly speed rammus, nunu, hecarim. All of these things are going to get on top of you and either cc you and kill you or just out dmg you. They need to increase ADC range across the board, and buff their base movement speeds.
I love team fights where I aa 100 times and we lose then the fed darius says in all chat “gg ad doesn’t aa please report”
I got two points in my mind,
One is, marksman are used in top, mid, sup so they don't seem that bad, and still mainly used in bot while some metas were totally apc for example
The other point is, I feel the issue is like the Vel Koz issue, since Vel Koz release, all new champs have dashes, or at least something to make them faster, movement speed is everywhere, and the thing is that, what made them strong was that range that makes them """safe""" but now they're not
Also ppl play ADC on mid and top for two reasons
1. You're not behind in XP as you would from sharing on botlane so you don't feel that weak
2. Sometimes you just had such terrible supports, fucking up the whole lane that the next game you wanna play solo but you wanna play your fav champion
I'm an Aphelios main and since he scales so much from lvls it's so great to play him on mid even tho the matchups are tough. But at least if I lose its only by my mistake, not bc my support does terrible play and I'm the one to blame
Thats because solo lane exp is so damn busted. A FREE 6k gold in stats for the lane you picked sounds pretty good doesnt it?
Losing 1v1 to an enemy Leona with tabies was a formative experience for many
True
mine was being killed 100-0 by a level 9 talon with JUST A DIRK and a level 16 4 item jinx after he missed his w2 the only thing he can miss.
I don't play adc but i believe that they should being back the 25% crit on items so that adcs could slot a defensive item as last instead of another crit item
But that is a mistake. We are ADCs. Our entire purpose is to deal as much damage as possible.
And besides, with the current damage meta a little, but more defense would not help.
It would help but why would it be a mistake, why should u need to buy 5 items for 100% crit when u could slot a defensive instead as last item or any other item that can make a difference in a specific game
@spyronanya6790 It might start that way, but it will become another slot for a damaging item. An ADC would go for attack power over defense all the time. There is a reason the only not damaging item (the guardian angel) is always at the end, and in most games, it does not make sense to buy it.
I think changes to crit are a possible solution and it could go one of two ways. Bringing back 25% crit can help bcuz on the champs that NEED that 100% for thier damage (jinx comes to mind) it means that itemization for a specific games doesnt happen; you have the crit items for aa heavy and thats it really. If you really need a spell shield too bad, your dps fall off makes it too hard. Only needing 4 would make it viable to build a defensive option sooner when it makes sense becuse you arent cutting your legs off. Another solution would be to make sure every meaningful/impactful item utility can be found on a crit item. Kraken slayer has the idea right; adjusting anti tank to fit a crit builder in how it functions vs botrk. To my knowledge we still dont have a spell shield,stasis, dash (rip galeforce), or health option. I understand burst IS adc counterplay but with uow beefy tanks are and how bursty EVERYTHING is they need to either give a little more tool adcs to have interaction with burst damage or take from the other two functions. I think going the 25% ceot route actually helps the cost/benefit of something defensive because otherwise you end up with just everything but it being gimped so much it doesnt really do its function any more on an adc (shieldbow). Thank you for attending my ted talk
Giving them more defense and like you know, getting rid of botlane mages
Well, look who's back.
imo ADC as a role or concept is now gone. dmg is so abundant that their unique trait of being the dps is now gone.
look at the adcs that have been meta and high wr.
lucian went from win lane burst poke to a late game controller with his ult.
varus went lethality poke.
senna, thats it, just senna in general.
lethality kalista now recently.
kogmaw had a stint of ap in mid.
vayne recently has been picked more top than adc.
twitch adc is gone, ap is the game.
ashe went support/poke.
smolder isnt even an adc but a caster mage.
the era and purpose of adc is gone. instead i refer to it just as bot lane. any champ with range and/or scaling is paired with a support to help them survive, which is why the mages have thrived there. another point is, look at how little actually traditional adcs ACTUALLY autoattack in fights. its very little. going the one shot pick out an enemy is just more efficient in the current cc meta.
Gone? Or do you mean replaced? In any case, do you notice a pattern here? Very few adc's build crit items. And that is because if you build crit you are way too vulnerable early game. You give up 25 minutes of the game in which you dont have 100% crit chance, minutes you could've spent actually having an impact in the game. But REMEMBER! Riot wants adcs to be tied to botlane so support role can exist, so any strategy that deviates from adcs being built crit and being lategame damage dealers will get nerfed eventually.
Yeah right now crit ADCS are super strong, including Twitch, but all it takes is to revert the buffs they got on their items and they're back to the gutter
@@minimoYT yeah but it feels like they come online so late into the game. twitch crit is good but so late into the game, while ap twitch is online right after 1 item. i guess it is balanced for pro play where adcs have a lot more gold and are accelerated more.
marksmen have kinda pivoted away from the dps builds into oneshot builds since they are able to function earlier and work better with the catcher/cc meta.
@@markmartin2819 20% crit change was the death of crit dps adc. make it 25% and the world will heal.
Dps is "weak" right now because tanks that stack resists are offmeta, in favor of bruisers who build a mix of damage/health (the only exception being ksante). You don't need DPS if the mages and bruisers can kill themselves. Added to this, Azir is the strongest laner in this season (best mage for dps) and early fighting is necessary since grubs/soul are win conditions.
DPS ADCs need 3-4 items AND a peel support, and a 4 item kog with a lulu isn't worth giving dragon soul + baron.
Just watch S7 janna/lulu snoozefest games to see how current ADC meta is not only much healthier for the game but many times more enjoyable.
One huge part of the problem is tanks. Since other lanes are consistenly 2 levels above your lane and they dont rely on items as much, they can just easily fight you. Add to it the immense amount of utility and damage even some of the very tanky champs have. Like there is no trade off. Build Heartsteel Tahm Kench top and you can run the ADC down while they stand behind thei teammates
The way to fix ADC is to fix their handlers. (Their handlers being Jungle and especially Support).
The ADC needs someone to frontline and peel for them. The worst thing you can do to your ADC is NOT give them a frontline. This is important at ALL stages of the game.
The ADC should NEVER be the one in the front. The ADC should only, in rare cases, be left to fight alone WHEN they have plenty of vision and a lead. Otherwise, the ADC should ALWAYS be accompanied by a frontliner with peel.
Thats why as adc you learn to take mid wave every 30s and play around your team inbetween. Success on adc in soloq is like how good can you see what you have to do to be safe and damage at the same time. If youre really good at it, youre gonna be a good adc.
Critis quite simply a coin flip stat, if they are allowed to get enough if it within the length of the game and you get peeled assuming your worth your weight in gold you get to have all the impact in the world, you die once to any champ in the game with a flank angle You've just come the maps new favorite long sword or amp tome dispensary....
You are definitely right about damage creep hurting ADC the hardest, because it takes the only job of the adc, and let's literally everyone else be able to do it just as well if not better. It's not uncommon to see the enemy support out-DPSing their adc through most of a game. It just makes you feel like your job doesn't matter anymore, at least not until you can get at least 3 items. I would nerf the damage of tanks and supports at least to help fix it, but I don't really know for sure what could fix things. The most frustrating thing about playing ADC for me right now is just how impactful and strong support is right now, like if there is a large skill gap between your support and the enemy support, there really isn't much you can do, usually absolute best case scenario is you go even and hope the top lane, jungle, and mid lane dice roll goes in your favor, but if you play main an adc that is strong early game like me and tries to use the strong early game to make your mark during mid game, it's REALLY painful when your support is gapped, especially if you are against a late game scaling adc. Like if you are playing an adc who is strong early with leona support against kog'maw with a squishy enchanter support for example, but your leona is playing like she's sona supporting smolder or something vs a draven nautilus. Always behind you never wanting to go in, and you just have to watch as your time slowly runs out as kog'maw, jinx, or whatever late game hypercarry scaling adc can happily free farm. It's about as painful when something goes wrong in bot lane and the moment things aren't looking good, even temporarily, your support just decides to permanently become the second jungler and you are forced to give the enemy adc first tower with all plating and lose a ton of farm and exp yourself. I understand roaming for support can be really good, but I wonder if they are calculating or even considering if the impact their permanent roaming is having is worth both you and them to lose a ton of exp, you losing a ton of farm, and the enemy adc getting the first tower probably with all platings.
some supps literally just int games by not understanding wave management 😭 id rather have my supp afk under turret than fuck up my cs or feed the enemy kills. honestly even just a supp w a decent cc sitting under turret doing NOTHING is enough pressure to keep them from totally diving me most times
@@marshxmalluw True that's a pretty big problem too sometimes, if your supp just mindlessly tries to push all the time, not thinking about if it might be better to freeze, slow push, or whatever else instead.
I'm a main ADC and tbh the crit buffs aren't that effective we need 25% crit per item again since mythics are gone, on-hit adcs are so more tankier since they can build like anything that is crazy and still deal crazy damage.
Tbh I’ve had a decent run on my new account, issues started in emerald when its basically flip to see if your topside ints, if not, autowin, if they int, autolose :)
here's what you do, and I am pretty confident about this: NERF SUPPORT. Revert the stupid buffs they have been getting year over year. Let the better adc win bot lane.
I’m a 100% casual player. I very rarely play solo queue and when I do I usually do with a 5 stack.
ADC is a role dreaded by everyone though, despite being the only role that plays with someone else for most of the match (second place being either jungle support and usually being the role most people want). Usually we’ve got to either roll or all play fill to decide who got the short end of the stick. I play with like 10 people and I think maybe one of them likes to play ADC and that’s as his secondary pick.
I’m not smart enough to say why it’s bad, imo it’s just really not compatible with casual players + supports like vel’koz or brand being able to casually permanently push you off a lane while two people clobber you isn’t helping it much. Point is though that if playing ADC feels like a chore for everyone; even if it’s good it’s not really in a great place
I'm a solo queue aphelios one trick, and yeah sadly a lot of the time it feels like I can't do much if I don't have a good team to help me
Same
Aphelios isn't weak but he feels terrible when you don't have a team.. that's why in pro play he's either played or banned
Literally every role feels like this man
Riot permanently talk about how they would fix the entire issue about mobility creep, damage creep and oneshot meta. But the community will not listen. Because the answer they came up with is the hottest take in game history: REMOVE ALL ASSASSINS (and skirmishers). Of course Riot will never do that the game would die in an instant. But at least with skillshots you can kite them out and dodge but assassins have 0 counterplay and only one playstyle: 1 v 9. There is no leanroom here. Either Assassins are viable and unmobile champions are semi dogshit. Or Assassins are dogshit and all the boosted players stop playing and the game is dead.
I don't think actual assassins are the problem. Like Zed, Talon and LeBlanc can burst a carry 100-0, but they don't have the juice to keep going after 2 kills and getting a third guy low, that's if they're really fed. A skirmisher like Briar, Irelia or Viego can just keep going. They have enough damage to burst a squishy, but their cooldowns aren't long, and they have good sustained damage, on top of being tankier, and still having good mobility, those are the "1v9" champions, at least much more than the average assassin is
@@minimoYT That is not the problem... The problem is they can dodge skillshots and have/had less cooldowns. Yes i mentioned skirmishers and they have issues too. But the real Problem are still Assassins because they can make entire classes useless. You can't even leave base in mid to late game. it is what it is.
I'm reminded of when I first swapped from LoL to Smite and being floored at the idea of the support's job being to roam after level 4. Made it way easier for my marksman to keep up with the rest of the team, and I could actually help our jungler set up ganks and ward the whole map without getting flamed for leaving. I don't think something like that would work in LoL in its current state. The ADC would just get spawn camped. Buffing and nerfing random champs or items is not going to solve the problem. They need to rework the entire exp and gold system for the duo lane if they're going to have the 3 lane setup. Or figure out a way to let the support roam without making them completely useless from lack of levels and gold.
Used to be an ADC main couldnt get past plat. Reached diamond with 64% winrate. The whole role is a handycap for real.
The problem with adc is really simple: it's balanced around pro play. ADC is Ryze the role.
7:47 ''pinguin todo fudido toy story''
Tuga, o mano mínimo?
eu perdi tudo nessa parte
When I play ADC, I just tell my support to take my kills, cs and my virginity.
Still a virgin, but I won the game, so I’ll take victories where I can. 💪😔
Ya I love the full tank tahm kench being able to hit me for 2k in 2 seconds while full build because I made one small misstep. Meanwhile If I wanted to kill the tahm, it would take two people to peel him, while me doing straight dmg plus kiting for 15 seconds to even effectively kill him xD
Karthus is one of the mages with a sustained damage. Essentially he is a marksman, but with skillshots instead of autoattacks, and magic damage instead of physical. Even more extreme example is Cassiopeia. I think she's not played botlane more only because of the weak range on her E. I've had a lot of success with the reworked Aurelion Sol bot too. The only real gripe with battle mages bot is the limited sieging capability.
Basically any champion with a promising late game can be played bot, but you have to make sure to keep the AP/AD balance in check.
i think giving adc better tools to scale safly would help support reliance (better gold from jungle camps, tools to play safe in lane and just lose less, ways to stall the game)
Its a very deep sistemic error that the enemy engage tank can just walk up and kill you even more with the new item changes, now that giant slayer is gone is even worse to play adc without bork which is not every adc who can build.
the removal of armor/mr shards indirectly nerfed karthus because apparently 90% of the time, they would always choose armor against karthus even in higher elos.
It's quite hard to make ADCs appealing to play, there are simply too many factors. You want to make ADC self sufficient? Sure, but be prepared for new top marksman meta. Top laners are now mad and either they need an early sustain or damage buff. Revert to 25% crit? Now Rioters have to spend little more time on fixing Yone, Yasuo, Jhin and etc. crit scaling. Not even mentioning that defensive 3/5th item could be a bit painful for assassins. Regardless of the role, a league player usually wants to be the main character on the rift, that's the real problem. Overall the role is in a good state (except few picks like twitch) and can easily carry games if well peeled. Eventually if we really wanted to buff adc early it should be some items build paths. Exclusive to ADC item components that arent 1100g and give 20AD (yes, I'm talking about you Warhammer with 88% gold efficiency).
Or some exclusive doran interaction on adc that whenever you are close to X champ with Y support item you gain Z stats for next 8 to 12 minutes. That would not only would buff a bit early but also could make supports consider if it's really a good time to roam or not instead of walking from lane to lane.
Botlane is no more frustrating to play than toplane. I play all roles and can say that this video's frustrations are often echoes of toplane with different specifics. Matchup greatly impacts your lane as well as jg, and the role is often infested with invaders (see the adcs and mages breaking top a few patches ago like tf and Smolder to name a few) that make the experience awful. Falling behind hurts you more than mid cuz you cant roam as often as they can, and you will often lack burst to do much in the name of "outplaying" most of the time when behind. (Unless you play a particularly controversial champion.)
Frankly, this just feels like "pointing at how the sky being blue and blue depresses me" complaint. Adcs by default are the best damage dealers in the game because they melt not just champions, but structures and objectices with ease. Its the main reason why even if behind, they must be focused first. They are the team's backbone and while other classes can try to carry, they never posses the imminent threat of an adc with their items at the ready. Burst from mages or assassins is deadly, but they have to deal with cooldowns or commitment, where as adcarries are usually only limited by attack animations (hence why they loveto bully mages in mid). Fighters do abit of both abilities and autos to attack, but they naturally try to do abit of everything while usually excelling at none until their build completes. Then there's tanks and true supports (enchanters and catchers) who by default deal damage the lowest or slowest. Assuming they even manage that and arent just relegated to cc bots.
"ADC role is dreadful because is too snowball with little outplay"
meanwhile in Toplane you picked any tank and the enemy picked Fiora/Vayne/Gwen 💀💀
And you didn't even mention divers toplaners, if you're behind, you can play as safe as you want, they'll dive you, kill you, and you'll be even more behind.
I can totally understand when people hate the role or at least hate how bad it can feel. But that almost never translates to them actually being weak. What they can lack in agency early they make up for in dps and scaling.
That's nonsense. Yes top lane has its own struggles like being the heaviest counter pick-reliant lane and JG pressuring but guess what? JG pressure isn't exclusive to top lane my guy. Damn near every game I am getting enemy JG on my dick bot lane. If top lane had champions that I found fun to play I would play it in a heartbeat over bot lane. From minute 1 as adc you have a drooling toddler shackled to your ankle who can single handedly choose to lose you the game regardless of any mistakes you do make or if you make none at all. I've had velkoz supports blind face check enemy tri lvl 1 for funsies and die to the enemy kaisa naut and blow flash, come back to lane, and die again. Boom, not even the first wave of lane phase and my enemy laner has a 700 gold lead on me. Did they play well? No, they simply won the support coinflip in matchmaking. That's the issue of adc. Top laners bitch about junglers camping them but guess what? Support is the same shit except they are shackled to you, leeching exp so you are 2-4 lvls down on solo lanes for no fault of your own. Imagine instead of the enemy JG farming their camps and THEN ganking you if they just got to sit in your lane and make it impossible for you to lane, you get poked out under tower or dove and lose more, etc. It's literally the same bullshit top laners bitch about except it's not just when the enemy JG shows up. It's from the very first wave until either tower in the lane falls. Also nowadays top laners bitching about ranged tops or mages is literally happening to bot lane now. We exist in an era of bot lane where mages are actually better than marksmen champs and if the enemy bot laner picks on having seen you lock in a marksmen well you just want to GP Q yourself. And this is where it gets worse than top lane because not only is the matchup 1v1 not good but you have another player in your lane. Say they are dogshit and feed or fuck up your wave so its pushing now and you cant get it to crash. Now you are fucked in a matchup that was already rough to begin with.
The worst part of playing adc is the moment when your support picks something useless like lux, takes your waves, dont poke enemy etc. and enemy support is leona or something tank engage just pressing R, you die and your support types something stupid
They don't have their fate in their hands... *Cries in support*
Doesn’t help that we move into item metas and damage creep from over the year is crazy. Marksmen at the end of the day will also be skill issue kind of deal while like you said team comp. A lot of learning mechanics.
Plus if they strong they end up everywhere mid top. It’s a tough balance.
Maybe Riot shouldn't have made a class with so much ranged consistent dps which requires a support to scale into the lategame.
All those nerfs to adc solo laners? They're because riot NEEDS to have adc's botlane for whatever reason. There has been many times where other roles such as mages were played in botlane rather than adc's. Guess what? Riot nerfed those strategies. And i'm not talking about champions abusing broken mechanics. Im talking about targeted nerfs to legitimate botlane champs that are not adc's. You said it yourself. Ziggs botlane? Lol. Seraphine botlane? Go back to support. And these are the two most recent.
The same thing happens otherwise: Riot hates adcs being played in solo lanes and strives to nerf them when played that way, for no discernible reason other than "muh botlane needs two adc's and two supports".
The only way for Adc's to be more fun to play is to let them be more self-sufficient. They used to be able to build durability items. Nowadays you need 5 crit items to get 100% crit, but years ago you only needed 4 so you could have a tanky item slot. But guess what? That would mean you would see way more adc's in solo lanes and Riot hates that. Shit like that is why adc is a pain in the ass to play, because Riot has engineered adc's to be a babysat role, because they need an unstoppable lategame hypercarry that gets killed by a 0/2 bruiser, because they think that's what people want to see, because they literally haven't bothered to think outside their narrow viewpoint.
>inb4 riot know what they are doing
Reminder that for the vast majority of league's history crit items gave 25% crit
>inb4 "dude people still play lots of adcs in solo lanes just look at [niche counterpick] and [sololane adc being allowed to be played for 3 months before being hit by solo-lane nerfs]
edit: apparently riot are going back to 25% crit on item rather than 20%. Better late than never I guess. Watch them fuck it up regardless though.
ADCs are strong by nature, and thus Botlane is made to hinder them
Riot enforces doesnt want us to play out of the box strategies, they pretty much want a formulaic gameplay, that's why any different strategy is immediately put down
I think you kinda missed the point of why damage creep is bad for ADCs especially.
The burst is of course troublesome - but thats not all of it.
For one: If damage is high and tankiness is low, ADCs have much less of a role. Why go for a high dps class when everyone has high dps, alongside other boons like better burst, utility, range or durability?
Additionally, another class that is impacted very heavily by a high damage meta are Bruisers. They struggle being durable enough and oftentimes opt for one-shot builds due to that. It also leaves ADCs with far less of a frontline to play around. Tanks are of course their most important teammates - tank both allow ADCs to do their job AND give them a reason to be picked. But Bruisers are very similar to that, as they both frontline for their ADCs and give a target where dps is strong for ADCs.
And going back to the burstiness of the game, I think stuff like a full combo from a mage, assassin or diver killing an ADC is not a problem. The problem is that even stray skillshots are an absolute killer these days. CC durations are also across the board WAY too long if you dont have tenacity(which ADCs cant get), exarcerbating this issue. It's one thing to get stunned by Veigar and die to a Q+W+R. Its a much different thing if getting hit by a single Q chunks half your health away.
I’d simply add some extra range to marksmen to be able to position better and keep the distance from threats. Then good adcs would become harder to kill and would require smarter engagement from assassins as opposed to just press R and see where it goes.
Just an idea tho.
another big problem is there are barely any defenisve adc options, like genuinely, i like to dabble into adc now and again, but when it comes to buying a defensive option that gives me crit, there is none, which is stupid, and the only option for mr is qss item, which you dont always need, so if you want both mr and armour with crit you cant essentially, even terminus doesn't have crit attached, so its more of a windshitter item. ONTOP of this they dont have a rush lifesteal option anymore, shieldbow sucks and bt you have to be atleast lvl 16 for the passive to do anything. the item pool for adc is all damage, no sustain, no defense, just offense.
Usually what I see for hypercarries at least is building 2 core damage items, one situational damage, and the fourth item will be a non-ADC defensive item, like going Randuin's on Vayne and Kog or something like a Maw on Jhin
The only true problem with most ADCs is the mobility, you can't outrun anything, literally anything else will catch up. Thus there is a huge resurgance of Ghost Spell picked on ADCs , its becoming more common that heal at this point. And even that is not enough to fix that problem. And If you want more chances to actually get to gain mobility then you have to specialize runes and build for that, but then you give up anything else for a cookie cutter built at this point.
Okay but it's COMPLETELY true.
I'm Mid/support main. But because my friend is bigger support main I decided to play adc more and it's pitfull.
So I had a good game where I was 10/2 twitch with 3 items and boots. I decided to help team mate near baron pit and there was 1/6/2 morderkaiser. I threw poison used ult and he just went towards me, I kitted him, he threw a ult on me, got insane amount of shield, no big deal I have flash and botrk, but no he flashed and clapped me with Q and auto.
Sooooo a fed adc two level above him with full HP lost to 1/6 morderkaiser with 60 percent of HP? Why?
Another was when I was full AD and lethality Ezreal with essence river, and I went against Mundo who was mainly MR because we had 3 AP champions. I couldn't kill him. He took half of my HP with heartsteel auto. How? Idk
Ksante just ignores everything and one shots adc despite being too mobile tank.
Yone can miss everything and still kill you with autos and chase you from the fountain to the middle of the map.
Tanks and Assassins are too broken. Supports deal more damage than Adc in most cases. I had 5x the damage my adc did as a brand. Definetly balanced.
I dodge brands w, i flash his q. He just walks up E R ignite and still kills me
adc is bad and all but bruh , the Kalista outplay at 8:22 was exquisite
Yesterday evening i spent 6 hours trying to do something on Jinx. My disappointment in myself is as low as my current winrate.
Imo, to make adc less frustrating, just nerf every other role except midlane. Make teams dependent on their carry again!
But every champ and the player wants to be able to be the one that carries the team. So "why should ADC have all the fun"
@@Let.me.think.of.a.name. because this is a team game, and if everyone wants to carry, they end up never doing their actual job like tanking or supporting
Nah just remove support. 90% of the frustrations of bot lane come from having a room temp IQ toddler shackled to your ankle leeching exp and feeding the enemy adc gold so you don't even get the chance of trying to skirmish and duke it out.
I love ADC its with top Lane my most favourite Role, I personally just think that dog should go down on every singe class (especially on tanks). If u are a good ADC player or have at least decent mechanics and u want to climb just pick adcs that u can pay support like AP Twitch or Senna (the Marksman designed for baby’s or at least people without hands). In a Nutshell the role Bot Lane feels really bad to mid.
Personally I would reduce the ratio of AP damage converted to turrets, I totally agree that AP champions should be able to push and get plates but right now any champion that builds nashors/lichbane can shred turrets really fast as the AP scaling into turret damage is a bit too big. Turrets drop way too fast now anyway and I think AD marksmen generally should have the best push potential on turrets (outside of passives or runes)
I think one of the biggest problems with ADCs for modern LoL is that every role has a carry position now, Veigo or Briar has just as much potential to hard win a 5v5 as any marksman can and carry the teams needs is raw DPS output. Because there is so little need to have a marksman to do dps, there is much less incentive for many players to play for there marksmen over anyone else who can do the same, if you look at how competitive pros play the ADC has a team that is literally willing to int so there carries can win a team fight which would just never happen in a soloQ game.
All in all marksmen are fun and I still play them but yeah its totally reasonable to see that ADC isn't the most ideal for soloQ as the cards are generally more stacked against you than for other positions to overcome
The friend who dragged me into league who has been playing since the first season told me that : If Jhin is near top tier, it probably isn't the meta for adcs
i am gonna be honest. I think ADC is in a fine spot currently.
Being an ADC feels strong and impactful. We just aren't the actual solo carries anymore like in the old seasons. We are Damage supports for the team. Just like... let me get the waves that are coming in and dont 2 skill them, before going to do it to another wave, since when i have to walk up a lot in midgame to get the money i need, i *will* die.
And with everything i know i sometimes think and complain about, i dont think you could make any of my wishful adjustments without breaking the role in half and making the rest of the map just turn into: "How can we babysit our ADC/destroy the opponent ADC"
Been honest I`ve seen a few pros and ex pros talking about and the problem to be honest is the fact that support is extremely op, the deal to fix that would be nerf supports but then no one wants to play support and riot already show us that they are not going on that direction so idk
Adc success is 80% of support work
dont really see any real ways to balance this problem honestly. at the moment riot started making champs with dashes and gap closer that was kinda the end of it. These days im surprised when a new champ dont have at least 2 dashes or two gap closers.
thing is they kinda had to do that since adc in the early meta of the game where kinda the only reason that you would win or lose a game. If your adc was ahead in that time it was kinda over unless your top laner did not pick like jax or trynda.
At this point the only solution i could see would be to give back defensive items for adc, like good ones that dont delay their power spikes too much or check most of the gap closers in the game and give them long cooldown so that if you have to use on you cant get it down to a 3 or 4 second cooldown.
Need the engages tool to be something that force you to really think about going in and get hit by a decent to big penalty if you waste it. Of course if you do that you would probably need to nerf some damge from the adc since it would be harder to get to them but it would put back the focus on thinking and might even bring back the focus on gameplay like flanks,that while still being used today might be less focused on.
Theres also the support problem but honestly i dont mind as an adc to have my support having impact in the early game if it means i will have impact in mid to late game.
In the end im pretty sure we wont see any real change in the near future to the class. Riot put themselves in a tough spot with the way they decided to design the game over the years.
To me the answer to this is that ADC player can't play somethinc else than marksman. It's the only role where versatile champ pool isn't the norm. Marksman can be good in the good situation. Bruiser, mage, tank can fit pretty well in that role
It's not that at all. As is evident now ADCs are playing mages bot now more than ever. The issue is ADCs want to play marksmen. That's the most fun champs to play bot lane. Sure you can play mages but they aren't fun to play for the majority of bot laners. It's like imagine you are a mid laner who enjoys assassins and assassin items are trash and mages or tankier mids are stronger so you can't really make them work as well as before. Everyone has a preference of playstyle is my point. It's not a bot lane exclusive dilemma. Top laners prefer certain play styles too. Either they like tanks or they like annoying quirky champs like yorick teemo singed etc. or they like bruisers like jax fiora camille aatrox etc. Mids either like control mages, poke mages, assassins, mages with globals (tf, galio, taliyah), etc. Bot laners massively prefer marksmen because it's fun to out play someone with movement alone. Most adcs don't have get out of jail free cards and you have to out micro your character to dodge their abilities, bait out abilities so you can all in, etc.
as someone who just climbed out of emerald elo hell from emerald 4 to diamond playing adc only (started the season emerald 1 and one tricked kat just for fun until i dropped all the way to emerald 4), the role really is not as bad as people make it out to be. i've gone on 5+ game winstreaks solo carrying my teams as adc, and all the issues you mentioned about adc are really not as bad when you actually know what you're doing.
of course, the issue is different in actual high elo. but for the average player (everyone below masters), if you're good enough, then you'll climb no matter the role. i honestly think its as simple as that
You might be underestimating how much harder it is to do as you did, though. I "climbed" to Diamond 3 playing mid lane, but it was more like coasting, because I could just do the bare minimum in lane and scale to teamfights then mysteriously just win.
Playing ADC, at least in my experience, is sweating bullets from level 2 and remaining like that until a nexus explodes, and you also have to coordinate with a guy in your lane without voice comms. It's doable, but for sure it's harder to do
@@minimoYT oh for sure its definitely not as easy to climb as adc as it might be playing mid lane or even jungle, but it also isn't as hard as those subredditors make it seem. proper macro, map awareness, and decision making isn't something exclusive to adc, but having those three skills is essential if you wanna climb as ad, and its how I've been able to come back so many times from a losing position.
besides, in the first place, if you play adc, you have to come to terms with the fact that you have less room for error than other roles. I've lost many games that I easily couldve won because i made ONE single mistake, and it cost the whole game. you can play perfectly the entire game and make one slip up near the end and lose the whole game. that's just the reality of playing this role.
but like i said, if you're good enough (meaning you make as little mistakes as possible), then climbing as a bot main shouldn't be that hard.
cheers for replying btw!
They need to lock some items that marksmen use to marksmen only like runaan’s hurricane. ADC items cannot be buffed because of the existence of skirmishers like the wind brothers and master Yi.
Ok, I think the biggest suggestion I could give for League as a whole around the ADC issue, is to make them not the only ones responsible for bot lane. Why are ONLY marksmen allowed down there with very few exceptions? And why is the lane balanced around ADCs and not ADCs and a support?
Bot lane should be expanded to allow different types of champions down there. Making it so you won't ALWAYS see an ADC every game will take a lot of pressure off the ADCs backs
Riots excuse for the state of adc is that it would be too guaranteed to win if the items and the champions would work on their own. So the solution here would be to make adc s less "guaranteed" by changing every ranged auto attack in the game to a skill shot. Call it the "Zeri threatment". "Stand behind me" ,as braum would say it, could actually matter with every champion this way. Protecting your mate today like from a caitlyn ult ,would buff the teamwork thought, because it would apply to any ranged attack. And you could actually save yourself behind minions ,turrets or simply by dodging. Also Invisability or untargetablity would be hard nerfed and less unfun to play against as adc, because of them now being hittable by those chmapions. This would add another sklll check to adc and champions that have invisability mechanics. Due to that "Nerf" They could come up with many champion buffs and nerfs for Champions and for items. Toplane would appear to have completely new ways to play against Ranged Matchups. id Also change how Crit works. Id tie it to the marksman class and give individual simmilar mechanics to champions like Yasuo Yone or tryndamere who would lose a part of their identity and playstyle to it. I would change it into a bullet system like 25% crit= Jhin passive without reload timings.Call it the jhin threatment It would be visible clear and planable. They also could add a uncomplete item with the inspiration of jhin that could nt stack, while the full items have a Stackable Crit passive. That also would change that adc are without influence in the early game due to the predicted individual base damage champión and item buffs. They also would nt be that reliable on the support anymore, what funny enaugh would lead to supports that stay more often on bot. That leads also to "Outplay" Options due to Auto hits now being Dodgable. And Maybe to a comeback to adc s beeing played on mid regularly.
But lets be Honest: Will the Video Game Company, that relies on players gettng a fast dopamine rush, by One Shoting the only Target that cant fight back in o,5 sec,, give this Target an Actual option to Fight back and erase the Random "Oh thats a high number" Moment for a more Fair distribution of those moments in the Playerbase? No, not if the Hell freezes over. Honestly a reason to quit for everyone who mains this Role.
It's hard to think about ways to make the role better to play since most of the problems are within how the role actually works.
Maybe jinx is now the best adc, but you still are weak early game and can be 100/0 very quickly at any point in the game.
A lot of the times in solo q if the only fed member of the team is the adc. It's hard to win since people want to be the main character instead of peeling the glass cannon.
I'm a bit late, but I think 14.10 is actually the most "correct" solution to rollback some of the most problematic changes that got us here. BUT, if the balance team's past is anything to judge by, I assume ADC will be nerfed jnto the ground again by S15. I don't really intend to flame them because they have been really improving the game since S14, but I've been conditioned to think like this over the past 6 years.
I think it's mostly the same for supports, if you're in soloqueue you can't trust anyone. So supports start playing shit like lux, xerath and zyra, so they can kill people and feel useful. The adcs start picking ziggs or seraphines or the like. For supports, even if you play an engager like a Leona or Nautilus sure, you have the agency to start the engages but, if no one follows, you're dead. If you play an enchanter and your carry(ies) sucks well, nothing you can do. So yeah, in soloqueue we usually will pick champs that can work alone and find your agency
there itemization is amazing imma be real cuz they get everything from building random adc items
the problem is the characters are just high in gold cost to be affective
Literally 10 years ago: "I just dodged every single skill shot from the enemy team, I might be done to 20% health, but I can still play!"
Today: "I dodged everything but yone ulted and then pressed e and killed me with aa. Nothing you can do."
No no no it's not like that at all. Yone ulted, missed 500dmg and setup, then pressed E, whiffed all his Qs, still proceeded to beat the shit out of you with autoattacks and undodgeable W.
The game was designed to be played in a aaa way, tanks are for tanking, adcs and mages for damage, supports for to support their carries, everything was fine. Than riot updated the game, but didn't update the adcs. They are still designed to be most effective when team helps them, and be useless when nobody helps them. The problem is that no one wants to protect adcs because everyone plays carries now
I quitted main adc to be a main anything else since the meta shifts so much. I was playing Shyvanna ap and with only 1 and a half item... I exploded the enemy Jinx that was smth about 10 ish kills or so. Yeah, if even get kills, position well, one mistake is enough to put you out of the game.
Also I loved the meme of the penguin (IM BRAZILIAN, SO I KNOW WHAT IS WRITTEN HAHA)
07:49 "Pinguim todo fudido toy story" me quebrou KKKKKKKKK
the only way i can think to help adc is to gut the damage of everthing that isnt an assassin or adc. If i walk up to a bush that is unwarded a Kha SHOULD oneshot me that is MY fault. A full tank build 0/5 Mundo should not be able to one shot me. adc is supposed to be the role that does damage so riot should stop taking the one thing adc is supposed to do and letting every champ from ivern to leona do it just as well.
Not sure it will fix adcs in any way, but I always wondered, what if:
-all marksmen will have reduced basic range;
-all marksmen will have increased (accordingly) def stats;
-crit items will give range.
Like anyway League is doomed. Another wacky expirement will not make it worse.
Also in this season even if I completely win lane but 0/2 midlaner comes
I'm dead
And I'm useless
Like even if I go 5/1 I still have 0 impact on the game.
I would definitely do something about the fact that more than half of the champs oneshots others. Not just assassins, mages as well.
Like assassins are supposed to be strong early, but weaker late unless hyper fed
Mages shouldn't insta kill you from huge ass range by landing one skillshot and one point click ability. Not just adcs but any champion that deals dmg over time, any onhit champ, any champ that benefits from prolonged fights.. they have no chance now
I play ADC graves, since season 8, I just reached gold this split (I just played ADC cuz the role just perma-afk'd), I can tell you sometimes I NEED To build assassin items (serpent's fang (shields), voltaic cyclosword, collector). The most jarring thing as an ADC is when you have the snowball advantage (KDA, Tower, items, etc) but if you get killed once or can't find an opening because you're perma focused or have that impression, the game can instantly get turned around even if you're 15/5 as Ezreal (I also play/main him yes) with 4 items. One Randuin's and Thornmail's kills you so you need Lord Dominik's fast for late game, and if you don't have said item by that time, you get killed, team gets aced, death timers just gg for you (summary of course). I haven't seen the subreddit but yeah I can imagine the complaints of zero damage and just blame on other role, NGL cringe. But yeah that's my rant on ADC role. Also Ashe needs a dash on her e or something would be a more interesting character or freeze something that helps her sustain and Hated season 13 Items. Thank you
I have a clip of a Nilah player getting all their hp back in about 1.5 seconds, the items are the only way that ADC's can play.
It's items or nothing, brother.
The problem is that playing adc correctly is not fun so people keep making mistakes. In lane nobody controls their wave, poke or do minor trades to win the lane and to set up the support for success. It’s insane the amount of time someone plays with Leona or Nautalis and just keeps pushing the wave instead of freezing, so they have space to all in. Also Adc are not that gold efficient compared to other roles meaning that they need the high farm in order for them to play on an even playing field, something low elo players can’t do especially since they can’t get farm that easily in mid game without good vision control unless they want to “abuse” bauses law. In team fights, they also need to constantly space against threats in a game where Yone can engage on you from a whole screen away without your teammates being able to peel and you just have to be really good at consistently dodging skill shots.
Tl;Dr adc way too hard for slightly better ability to team fight and skirmish.
But when was ADC good exactly?
I started playing at the end of the season 7 and every season is the same 😂
Right now crit ADCs are really strong, though they were in the gutter until some recent buffs. It's just the role doesn't give you much agency
Also generally speaking bot lane is a joke , as a duo we can be winning bot so hard , getting CS lead, Kill lead, Tower lead, and then rotations start to happen and we are a joke vs the rest of their team. Like at that point why does bot lane even exist?
The nami ult at 7:05 made me giggle
i dont see the complaints tbh. i play adc alot with friends and the class feels stupid op i swap between most of the champs but mostly nilah and off meta shit because its funny. but ill play ez jhin lucian and be fine. mostly a skill issue i think. mix of average player having bad mechanics and even worse macro so they constantly put themselves in losing situations and throwing winning states without realizing it
I think a big part is playing with friends. I have a ton of fun playing ADC occasionally with friends, even if the support is a random. But playing ranked solo queue as an ADC main is basically flipping a coin over and over on whether you get to play the game or not
@@minimoYTwill def concede friends help but even if I get adc by myself or supp is auto filled. Generally goes well. Really does seem like a discipline sorta thing where u gotta know my support is making a bad play don’t follow which is tilting but yeah its just yeah mental.
I played jg for ages b4 transitioning to bot so yeah guess im more used to teammates screwing me over/dealing with it.
Mute all in solo aswell Ofc to avoid trolls
OH MY GOD THE ORANGE JUICE SOUNDTRACK
What if all ADCs were given a Knockdown, or potentially Grounded ability?
Cait's net, move it from Jinx's E to W, throw it onto linear abilities so the ADC can deny enemy melee champs from jumping through their entire range.
i just droped from g2 to almost s3 playing botlane. then i said f botlane started playing yasuo again(was a yas main years ago) and now its going up again. currently 2 games away from gold 4
They should have just removed the collector or remove the part that automatically kills low hp enemies. That shit is still broken
One thing that would make the class feel infinitely better to play is nerfing marksman items on melee characters. Melee as a rule tend to have higher armor mr base movement speed and ad than marksman to account for the advantage of range. But that also makes it so that when items are decent on adcs they are ridiculous op on Melees then the melee characters get the item nerfed they get compensation buffs because one of their core items were nerfed and adcs are left to suffer in a viscious never ending cycle of dissapointment. Bork and deaths dance are nerfed on range characters along with a bunch of other good items. At least return the favor with the ridiculous ones like immortal shield bow that the wind shitters got nerfed while getting compensation buffs like 6 times.
To be fair, Shieldbow has been terrible for both ranged and melee since it stopped being a mythic in season 13. Other than it, ADC items aren't really a problem on melee, Shieldbow is gutted, Galeforce doesn't exist anymore, and on-hit is generally better on ranged champs anyway
@minimoYT they are currently kind 9f ok now with the new patch riot did bringing them back a few years essentially items wise but considering how games have been going I am expecting a BUNCH of marksman item nerfs in the future. Plus shield bow used to be a pretty good item until the wind shitters got it nerfed into the ground. It's not even a problem with mythic items it is the shield amount. Shield bow at base you buy for the shield however if the shield is ever good it will always be better on melee then ranged because they have the armor to back up the shield giving them another second or so to lifesteal or kill the enemy instead of just getting killed through the shield. We will see how the new split goes but I am fully expecting a wave of crit nerfs in the future.
Could we increase the hp of marksmen adcs by like 20% just so they don’t explode mid to late game and get 2-3 shotted.
Fuck supp gaps. Adc Is literal hell in elo hell. Well, thats elo hell tho. Player lottery difference
I swear Emerald is composed of skill range of Gold 3 players all the way up to Diamond 2 or something, no way the gaps get that big otherwise
I think karthus’ popularity was tied to elosanta but since he rarely streams no one plays anymore
i will only speak on my experience as a player who gets bored of repetitiveness i play all roles and i have climbed as far as as plat i have played in that elo ns mastery 7s 200k adcs that i stomped and i have lost lane
i have seen it all and i go into every role from the mindset that there are people who play this role everyday and will destroy me if i go in without consideration and i end up stronger than them most of the time just by surviving lane
what i see is that adc mains whant to be the hero BUT they actually need to be the consistent one and the cleanup after mid and top
also they are pretty bad at trading but i think the more i climb the better they will be mechanicaly
BUT there is NO other role in the gema where i can go and stomp a mastery 7 200k onetrick other than adc i dont know why but i can get the better of them most of the time as for the tanks out damaging everything YES thats a problem for the entire game i dont have a solution as of now
Jinx, Twitch, Nilah, Kog, all above 52% winrate. I either lose cuz I play like crap, you my bot feeds their asses off, and enemy adc 1v9s
Kathus is still a good adc, I think he fell off cause there were so much better AP options (sera ziggs). I think he’s also very support reliant, nothing feels worse than missing Q’s when it really matters. 90% of adc mains would prefer picking a marksman over an AP champ if the power gap isn’t large.
I’m gonna throw out a guess that most people who quit league permanently within the last 10 years were ADC mains
All in all it's clearly the junglers fault, because what else could we blame. At least that is what all the ADC players tell me when I play jungle, be it my adc dying while i'm doing first blue buff near top, or the enemy adc when I steal a objective or kill them
tbh a simple ping when im sorta up in lane to let me know im weak side and if they gank you cant be ther is enough for me, but cant even get that.
I'm just tired and old and if I play a squishy auto attack reliant character I'll probably just keep losing so I'd rather play a support, I feel more rewarding being squishy but having abilities that can cc or empower my team and having no damage than auto attacking people to death
it just feels to me that playing adc feels like playing an old indie game that is just about point and click on enemies, relying on raw clicking abilities and positioning, and it would be more entertaining to actually do less damage but have more utility, yes supports do that, but supports in this game were designed to be adc orbiters in the early game, making it kinda less entertaining to play
I used to love playing ranged classes in mmorpgs, but in every mmorpg I played, archers or gunners were more of utility classes, of course they had their burst damage tools, but they were really good at things like scouting, setting traps, blinding or poisoning enemies or being distractions, and glass cannon was more of a thing for mages
I think it's time for you to become an ADC Teemo main lol
They just need to reduce all damage in the game by 10-15% so the kiting will be viable again
all I want is more movement speed scaling