very interesting. I have never heard it talked about quite like that before. It does give it a more 3D aspect rather than a more 2D that a single center line would have. Makes sense to view it in this way.
Bentley's Backwoods Bushcraft Thank you 🙏 for the very nice comment. I feel that most people on the internet are explaining the centerline simply as the middle. It’s much more.
Like a game of chess... go for the center line with patience until your able to stagger or overthrow opponent for more precise follow through. And increase chance of weak counter so one can push ones own center forward minimizing distance so one does not over extend a strike and allow for counter and or beyond ones center of gravity . Giving away defensive footing n obvious lack of experience is how combat is won or lost. Before initiating combat just like a properly based wager one should know how the outcome will benefit. One must only ever go along with the house style if one can gain either knowledge and or acceptance by not deviating from the local stand point. (“Never play the house game unless losing is to your benefit”) Nora Roberts
The stick analogy is apt, a nice visual aid. For the most part, I agree with your concepts, though I teach them differently [3rd generation Ip Man Wing Chun]. There are deeper aspects, of course, but these are hard to convey without "feeling" the effect. My two cents: "Center" and "line" are two concepts brought together. There is no "center-line". Spine to spine becomes the line. Upon touch we should send our "force" into the "center" of the opponent [a point forward of the lowest vertebrae]. This prevents them from being able to "escape" the force and makes it easier to find the "tipping point" [where balance is affected]. This is what you are illustrating with the triangle. The "apex" is the where lines of attack "lead". We don't necessarily need the "third" point you touch on to affect their balance if we understand how to connect our mass and "center" and send force to the gearbox and balance point of the opponent. However, your third "line" concept is useful: this is the "splitting point". A great exercise is to take a short stick and put it across the hips of the opponent. Then practice putting just a little force in every direction. If you "square" or go perpendicular to the line in either direction you will find it easy to unbalance the opponent. If you then draw a line forward and backward [usually the distance of his outstretched fist] then bringing the head of the opponent to that point is the "weak-point" of balance [the "apex"]. The trick is people rotate hips on contact. Once we learn to put force and "split" the hips it becomes effortless to move much larger opponents around. Position permits opportunity; balance allows response. We should take both from our opponent and maximize both for ourselves. Too many in Wing Chun circles view Chi Sao [a sensitivity EXERCISE] as Wing Chun "fighting". It is not. We should win upon contact. We should defeat lines of attack, crossing, spiraling force and breaking structure. Energy over movement; focus over force. No matter our position, we should frame [square] to their spine. Our spine should be straight, like the hinge of a door. The Wooden Dummy more closely mirrors Wing Chun techniques than Chi Sao. We can be behind or beside an opponent and have "center-line" [while the opponent does not]. Also: You made an important point about elbow position [immovable elbow]. I often call it: setting the table. You can't "eat" if you don't set the table. This means elbows forward. In short, center-line is more about precision of focus, so force is magnified. Once coupled with the "crossing" idea [spiral energy feedback down a line] present in Siu Nim Tao this leads to effortless take-downs and manipulation of much larger opponents [especially if one learns to "wedge" as well]. In truth, even if we touch hands, we should affect their balance, by sending proper energy to their "center". This is what many do not understand. We can strike the shoulder and still unbalance an opponent if the force travels inward down the spine to their tipping point, their "center". They will not be able to avoid such force.
This is hands down the most constructive comment I’ve seen in a very long time. Thank you 🙏. Do you have a channel yourself? If not you should. I’d like to connect with you and further the discussion. Thanks again.
@@JingShenKuoshu I recently opened a channel because people were writing, asking me to do so. I posted a video on principles, which I plan to make into a series. Sadly, I work full time and have four children. It's been difficult finding time to make more videos [I was exhausted when I did squeeze in the time and lost my train of thought a couple times]. But seeing your video prompted me to write. I hope more people see this so they can really consider the concepts Wing Chun ingrains. I'll write below from the RUclips account [Hidden Path Wing Chun]. It's good to see someone teaching these concepts with a thoughtful approach. Wing Chun saved my life on multiple occasions and allowed me to save my little brother's life at a very young age from a gang armed with clubs. I want to see it continue with proper understanding so people are able to defend themselves. It took me too long to be willing to talk about and teach people what I was taught. Keep up the great content!
@@jimmygeorgiou3741 3rd generation Ip Man via a closed-door student of Duncan Leung [a closed-door student of Ip Man]. I firmly believe in what Ip Man distilled. I just feel most don't understand the system [and Ip Man never argued; he allowed students to discover for themselves via their own faculties, the truth]. Wing Chun rewards humility and wisdom. The forms do NOT teach applications, merely our own "energy" and tools. Only when we understand the tools can we begin to "build" from there. Energy over movement; focus over force. Wing Chun is NOT a movement-based art; it is an energy-based art. Movement is a RESULT of intention [mindful direction of energy]. Techniques are not responsive. Instead, we should "read" energy and techniques should result from our sensitivity, adaptation, and redirection of our opponent's force [and line]. God bless you.
I just started Wing Chun and I haven't heard it explained like this before. Thanks for the great explanation. I thought the centerline was only utilized with the upper body.
Not true at all. Understanding centerline principles against multiple attackers and weapons is important. That might be a good video for me to produce. Thanks for the comment.
John P : Very good question John P. The purpose of understanding the 3 centerlines is to then be able to manipulate them in motion. They each change as you circle, evade and engage. Thanking third center puts them off balance and opens opportunities for you to finish the fight or escape and fight another day. You will see much more about this in my knife training videos. There I take Aaron Khan, a seasoned Kemp’s-Jujitsu and BJJ fighter, and introduce him to knife and environmental weapons training. It’s here where the centerline principal is most important.
@@JingShenKuoshu Having had to disarm two knife attacks [one by a highly trained, but psychotic, knife fighter], the center-line [particularly, the "line" principle] is vital. In truth, if we use the "crossing" idea and the "disarming" idea present in the Wing Chun knives [the understanding of the grip and "thumb"], disarms become very easy. Those who rely on BJJ methods are at an extreme disadvantage. There are MUCH easier ways to disarm a knife but they are "energy" based, not "movement' based.
A good yet deep concept. Just a lil request, that you delve a bit into breaking the centre of base...or point us in the right direction if you had already
qu David Thank you David, I’d be happy to get further into the centerline principle for you. Tomorrow, I am going to announce that beginning next week, I will be offering live video solo and dual training online. I hope you check it out.
I've studied many styles and have coaches USA Boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, and Olympic Style Wrestling. The centerline principle I use goes back to my very young years in James Demile's Wing Chun Do and Jacques Patenaude's Fang Shen Do. Over the years its evolved through my training in many other arts like Chin Na, Aiki Jujitsu, Escrima, Kempo, and all the sport fighting styles I was involved in as well.
This is very well informed, but there is only one centerline. Your principle is correct, but you missed the whole concept entirely. Who is your Sifu? What lineage are you from?
This is where kinetics takes over tradition. There are more than one centerline. I’ve trained under James Demile’s Wing Chun Do, Jun Fan Do, Wing Chung and some Wing Tsun over my years of training. I’ve always loved Wing Chun and working with many of their practitioners. I know that many of the systems only preach one centerline, and this is why many practitioners have weak Kung Fu. Kinetics. 👈
@@JingShenKuoshu you both are correct. This is why. John you are correct in later part of biu sao in biu tze, Wing Tsun, if I am off the center, I use of reaping attacks, ridgehand, & knifehand in biu tze sticky hands to fling myself back to centerline in a diagonal knife sweeping clothesline attack fashion using body torsion. You "slingshot" diagonally yourself back into your opponent using your own centerline as a control to see how far you cut into your opponent based on how much you walk and un-twist your body into your strikes. Your opponent WILL end up in your center because of the amount of force a properly twisted/loader biu tze is equivalent of being hit by a baseball bat. You are stacking your entire weight into centerline in front of your hips. Example downward elbow in biu tze. Bad for conventional fighting because there is no defense in a square position... you must dictate terms of the fight by attacking aggressively, but calmly with dynamic entry/bursting. Good at surgically terminating your enemy at start of a fight. Basically, Military Commando style. JingShen, you are also correct. Your understanding of Centerline is the first half of biu sao when it is first introduced in Chum Kiu similar to boxing lead in with your jab hand in a 60/40 You are rotating into centerline like a fencer looking for an opening. Important part of BOTH JKD and Wing Chun. Example Chum Kiu Side elbow. This is what Bruce Lee and Taky Kimura used to further develop Jun Fan Gung Fu. That is why I feel like it is an important part of Wing Chun too that many Wing Chun practitioners should be aware of. Not always the greatest for surgically removing opponent in fight because you are forced to fight in broken rhythm. It's really hard to land a solid strike, unless you are a professional boxer Good for conventional fighting because there is a natural defensive shield yet pressure fighting similar to swarmer boxing in the stance. Basically Pacquiao. My opinion, both "traditional" and JKD concepts of centerline are needed in Wing Ch un to make it a complete art. This is oversimplying... Throw punches with JingShenKuoshu's centerline. Throw palms with John Moy's.
Now this is a great question.. The working centerline, as you nicely stated is not different between a boxer and a wrestler. The stances are different, but the principle remains the same as they move and change positions. 👈😎👍
I always used to get beat up in school .Even now i get beat up .I love the martial arts .The spirituality if it .Great principal .The center line .That's what they teach you in yoga right?Except they call it the astral spine .But I'm pretty sure they are the same thing .Anyway ...i got sick of losing fights in front of my girlfriend..so i figured the second amendment was better 🤣💪🇺🇸but ....live this video ....can use it at the range too right?That's what they teach you ...to shoot off your center line ...
I would have explained a few things differently. .think of the core of an Apple..that is a central point at any Angel to attack..symmetrical centre. .opposite each other or angels via the core the whole mass will still move all good info to analyse from wingchunhertfordshire
The problem with the apple 🍎 core example is that the core of the apple is tilting, tipping, rotating, popping up and down. From your analogy it would be like trying to hit a loose banded double end bag with bungees on both ends. It would spin, jump off different directions etc. there’s much more to the center than the center. It’s multidirectional and set on a moving triangular base. I love getting constructive comments. Thank you so much. What style of Wing Chun have you studied. I’ve studied Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, Wing Chun Do (James Demile) and JKD though the years. Each had totally different systems and focuses. JSK has the best elements I could find and they’ve been adapted for real street fighting over tradition. I love chatting with WC Practitioners. There’s something unique in Wing Chun that you don’t find in other arts. Chi Sao for example. I give nothing to the slap game practitioners. I’ve never seen a good fighter out of this mindset. They end up like point fighters. JSK Chi Sao is about control and eventually CHIN NA.
@@JingShenKuoshu Hi there your right with the tilting. .there are angels and lines of attack everywhere a little like the kali lines. .I study chi sao more than anything..Nino Bernardo is a WSL student I learnt most of my wing chun through him. He is an excellent instructor and really looks at fine detail. I am not biast as have trained with others not mentioning names and do not have the same understanding around chi sao and wing chun. Nino said you could train a lifetime and still not get it!! it's true I have trained with people that have some 15 to 25 years of wing chun and cannot chi sao because they just don't understand it..Great chatting..Regards from the UK. please check out some of my posts on RUclips.or follow wingchunhertfordshire on Facebook..
Amazing! Thanks for this clear and informative explanation of the centerline!
Thanks for the nice comment. I hope it helped.
25 principles of Shaolin Kung Fu
very interesting. I have never heard it talked about quite like that before. It does give it a more 3D aspect rather than a more 2D that a single center line would have. Makes sense to view it in this way.
Bentley's Backwoods Bushcraft
Thank you 🙏 for the very nice comment. I feel that most people on the internet are explaining the centerline simply as the middle. It’s much more.
Centerline alone is 3D in itself. There is no 2D in centerline. Need to ask your Sifu to clarify the centerline for you.
God pm musta kana
Like a game of chess... go for the center line with patience until your able to stagger or overthrow opponent for more precise follow through. And increase chance of weak counter so one can push ones own center forward minimizing distance so one does not over extend a strike and allow for counter and or beyond ones center of gravity . Giving away defensive footing n obvious lack of experience is how combat is won or lost. Before initiating combat just like a properly based wager one should know how the outcome will benefit. One must only ever go along with the house style if one can gain either knowledge and or acceptance by not deviating from the local stand point. (“Never play the house game unless losing is to your benefit”) Nora Roberts
Interesting comment. The art of strategy.
Love this. Strategy of war. Like Sun Tzu? 💜🙏
The stick analogy is apt, a nice visual aid. For the most part, I agree with your concepts, though I teach them differently [3rd generation Ip Man Wing Chun]. There are deeper aspects, of course, but these are hard to convey without "feeling" the effect.
My two cents:
"Center" and "line" are two concepts brought together. There is no "center-line". Spine to spine becomes the line. Upon touch we should send our "force" into the "center" of the opponent [a point forward of the lowest vertebrae]. This prevents them from being able to "escape" the force and makes it easier to find the "tipping point" [where balance is affected]. This is what you are illustrating with the triangle. The "apex" is the where lines of attack "lead". We don't necessarily need the "third" point you touch on to affect their balance if we understand how to connect our mass and "center" and send force to the gearbox and balance point of the opponent.
However, your third "line" concept is useful: this is the "splitting point". A great exercise is to take a short stick and put it across the hips of the opponent. Then practice putting just a little force in every direction. If you "square" or go perpendicular to the line in either direction you will find it easy to unbalance the opponent. If you then draw a line forward and backward [usually the distance of his outstretched fist] then bringing the head of the opponent to that point is the "weak-point" of balance [the "apex"]. The trick is people rotate hips on contact. Once we learn to put force and "split" the hips it becomes effortless to move much larger opponents around.
Position permits opportunity; balance allows response. We should take both from our opponent and maximize both for ourselves. Too many in Wing Chun circles view Chi Sao [a sensitivity EXERCISE] as Wing Chun "fighting". It is not. We should win upon contact. We should defeat lines of attack, crossing, spiraling force and breaking structure.
Energy over movement; focus over force. No matter our position, we should frame [square] to their spine. Our spine should be straight, like the hinge of a door. The Wooden Dummy more closely mirrors Wing Chun techniques than Chi Sao. We can be behind or beside an opponent and have "center-line" [while the opponent does not].
Also: You made an important point about elbow position [immovable elbow]. I often call it: setting the table. You can't "eat" if you don't set the table. This means elbows forward.
In short, center-line is more about precision of focus, so force is magnified. Once coupled with the "crossing" idea [spiral energy feedback down a line] present in Siu Nim Tao this leads to effortless take-downs and manipulation of much larger opponents [especially if one learns to "wedge" as well].
In truth, even if we touch hands, we should affect their balance, by sending proper energy to their "center". This is what many do not understand. We can strike the shoulder and still unbalance an opponent if the force travels inward down the spine to their tipping point, their "center". They will not be able to avoid such force.
This is hands down the most constructive comment I’ve seen in a very long time. Thank you 🙏.
Do you have a channel yourself? If not you should. I’d like to connect with you and further the discussion. Thanks again.
@@JingShenKuoshu
I recently opened a channel because people were writing, asking me to do so. I posted a video on principles, which I plan to make into a series. Sadly, I work full time and have four children. It's been difficult finding time to make more videos [I was exhausted when I did squeeze in the time and lost my train of thought a couple times]. But seeing your video prompted me to write. I hope more people see this so they can really consider the concepts Wing Chun ingrains.
I'll write below from the RUclips account [Hidden Path Wing Chun]. It's good to see someone teaching these concepts with a thoughtful approach. Wing Chun saved my life on multiple occasions and allowed me to save my little brother's life at a very young age from a gang armed with clubs. I want to see it continue with proper understanding so people are able to defend themselves. It took me too long to be willing to talk about and teach people what I was taught.
Keep up the great content!
@@JingShenKuoshu
Here is my channel. You can email me privately at hiddenpathwingchun [at] gmail [dot] com.
Hope all is well. Thanks.
@@hiddenpathwingchun5045 interesting info what family wing chun are you from.
@@jimmygeorgiou3741
3rd generation Ip Man via a closed-door student of Duncan Leung [a closed-door student of Ip Man].
I firmly believe in what Ip Man distilled. I just feel most don't understand the system [and Ip Man never argued; he allowed students to discover for themselves via their own faculties, the truth]. Wing Chun rewards humility and wisdom. The forms do NOT teach applications, merely our own "energy" and tools. Only when we understand the tools can we begin to "build" from there.
Energy over movement; focus over force.
Wing Chun is NOT a movement-based art; it is an energy-based art. Movement is a RESULT of intention [mindful direction of energy]. Techniques are not responsive. Instead, we should "read" energy and techniques should result from our sensitivity, adaptation, and redirection of our opponent's force [and line].
God bless you.
I just started Wing Chun and I haven't heard it explained like this before. Thanks for the great explanation. I thought the centerline was only utilized with the upper body.
A lot of people have been saying they didn’t really understand the centerline principle.
Thankyou so much for sharing the knowledge. Peace ☮️
Thanks again for reaching out and commenting. It very much helps.
Legend 🤙
I think that if opponent is more than one person, center line protection is unworkable.
Not true at all. Understanding centerline principles against multiple attackers and weapons is important. That might be a good video for me to produce. Thanks for the comment.
Interesting principal! Thank you for sharing!
Thanks for the comment. I appreciate it.
Wouldn't the purpose be to have your opponent in your centerline, but you not be in their centerline? Why square off centerline to centerline?
John P :
Very good question John P. The purpose of understanding the 3 centerlines is to then be able to manipulate them in motion.
They each change as you circle, evade and engage. Thanking third center puts them off balance and opens opportunities for you to finish the fight or escape and fight another day.
You will see much more about this in my knife training videos. There I take Aaron Khan, a seasoned Kemp’s-Jujitsu and BJJ fighter, and introduce him to knife and environmental weapons training. It’s here where the centerline principal is most important.
@@JingShenKuoshu
Having had to disarm two knife attacks [one by a highly trained, but psychotic, knife fighter], the center-line [particularly, the "line" principle] is vital. In truth, if we use the "crossing" idea and the "disarming" idea present in the Wing Chun knives [the understanding of the grip and "thumb"], disarms become very easy. Those who rely on BJJ methods are at an extreme disadvantage. There are MUCH easier ways to disarm a knife but they are "energy" based, not "movement' based.
You are totally correct. Good to see that you understand the Centerline Theory. Who is your Sifu? What lineage are you from?
@@JingShenKuoshu .
। ।,।
😦😥😩😩😦😦😥😟😣😟😟😟8DX-(X8DXD>-(X-(XD8X(X(X-(XD8D:0>-(
Amazing video thank you ♥️
Thanks for the nice comment.
thank you never really understood till now
You are absolutely welcome. It took me a long time and several instructors to finally grasp over the years.
Less than one of Shaolin guarding your centerline at all times these are your vital points
A good yet deep concept. Just a lil request, that you delve a bit into breaking the centre of base...or point us in the right direction if you had already
qu David
Thank you David,
I’d be happy to get further into the centerline principle for you. Tomorrow, I am going to announce that beginning next week, I will be offering live video solo and dual training online. I hope you check it out.
That thumbnail looks like vice city
Haha. Funny
Thanks for commenting.
First principals guard centerline by Master chin Liu hai
I’ll check that out
All blessings sifu , what style or styles you have studied
I've studied many styles and have coaches USA Boxing, MMA, Muay Thai, and Olympic Style Wrestling. The centerline principle I use goes back to my very young years in James Demile's Wing Chun Do and Jacques Patenaude's Fang Shen Do. Over the years its evolved through my training in many other arts like Chin Na, Aiki Jujitsu, Escrima, Kempo, and all the sport fighting styles I was involved in as well.
This is very well informed, but there is only one centerline. Your principle is correct, but you missed the whole concept entirely. Who is your Sifu? What lineage are you from?
This is where kinetics takes over tradition. There are more than one centerline.
I’ve trained under James Demile’s Wing Chun Do, Jun Fan Do, Wing Chung and some Wing Tsun over my years of training. I’ve always loved Wing Chun and working with many of their practitioners.
I know that many of the systems only preach one centerline, and this is why many practitioners have weak Kung Fu. Kinetics. 👈
@@JingShenKuoshu you both are correct. This is why. John you are correct in later part of biu sao in biu tze, Wing Tsun, if I am off the center, I use of reaping attacks, ridgehand, & knifehand in biu tze sticky hands to fling myself back to centerline in a diagonal knife sweeping clothesline attack fashion using body torsion. You "slingshot" diagonally yourself back into your opponent using your own centerline as a control to see how far you cut into your opponent based on how much you walk and un-twist your body into your strikes. Your opponent WILL end up in your center because of the amount of force a properly twisted/loader biu tze is equivalent of being hit by a baseball bat. You are stacking your entire weight into centerline in front of your hips. Example downward elbow in biu tze. Bad for conventional fighting because there is no defense in a square position... you must dictate terms of the fight by attacking aggressively, but calmly with dynamic entry/bursting. Good at surgically terminating your enemy at start of a fight. Basically, Military Commando style.
JingShen, you are also correct. Your understanding of Centerline is the first half of biu sao when it is first introduced in Chum Kiu similar to boxing lead in with your jab hand in a 60/40 You are rotating into centerline like a fencer looking for an opening. Important part of BOTH JKD and Wing Chun. Example Chum Kiu Side elbow. This is what Bruce Lee and Taky Kimura used to further develop Jun Fan Gung Fu. That is why I feel like it is an important part of Wing Chun too that many Wing Chun practitioners should be aware of. Not always the greatest for surgically removing opponent in fight because you are forced to fight in broken rhythm. It's really hard to land a solid strike, unless you are a professional boxer Good for conventional fighting because there is a natural defensive shield yet pressure fighting similar to swarmer boxing in the stance. Basically Pacquiao.
My opinion, both "traditional" and JKD concepts of centerline are needed in Wing Ch un to make it a complete art. This is oversimplying... Throw punches with JingShenKuoshu's centerline. Throw palms with John Moy's.
Was wing chung the martial arts that Bruce Lee trained in?
I think his integration of boxing and escrima added a lot.
It's the working plane right ? A boxer's centerline is different than centerline of a wrestler.
Now this is a great question.. The working centerline, as you nicely stated is not different between a boxer and a wrestler. The stances are different, but the principle remains the same as they move and change positions. 👈😎👍
@@JingShenKuoshu Okay. so is centerline the squared up or the neutral stance ?
I always used to get beat up in school .Even now i get beat up .I love the martial arts .The spirituality if it .Great principal .The center line .That's what they teach you in yoga right?Except they call it the astral spine .But I'm pretty sure they are the same thing .Anyway ...i got sick of losing fights in front of my girlfriend..so i figured the second amendment was better 🤣💪🇺🇸but ....live this video ....can use it at the range too right?That's what they teach you ...to shoot off your center line ...
Lol. Yes 👍
I would have explained a few things differently. .think of the core of an Apple..that is a central point at any Angel to attack..symmetrical centre. .opposite each other or angels via the core the whole mass will still move all good info to analyse from wingchunhertfordshire
The problem with the apple 🍎 core example is that the core of the apple is tilting, tipping, rotating, popping up and down. From your analogy it would be like trying to hit a loose banded double end bag with bungees on both ends. It would spin, jump off different directions etc. there’s much more to the center than the center. It’s multidirectional and set on a moving triangular base.
I love getting constructive comments. Thank you so much. What style of Wing Chun have you studied. I’ve studied Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, Wing Chun Do (James Demile) and JKD though the years. Each had totally different systems and focuses. JSK has the best elements I could find and they’ve been adapted for real street fighting over tradition.
I love chatting with WC Practitioners. There’s something unique in Wing Chun that you don’t find in other arts. Chi Sao for example. I give nothing to the slap game practitioners. I’ve never seen a good fighter out of this mindset. They end up like point fighters. JSK Chi Sao is about control and eventually CHIN NA.
@@JingShenKuoshu Hi there your right with the tilting. .there are angels and lines of attack everywhere a little like the kali lines. .I study chi sao more than anything..Nino Bernardo is a WSL student I learnt most of my wing chun through him. He is an excellent instructor and really looks at fine detail. I am not biast as have trained with others not mentioning names and do not have the same understanding around chi sao and wing chun. Nino said you could train a lifetime and still not get it!! it's true I have trained with people that have some 15 to 25 years of wing chun and cannot chi sao because they just don't understand it..Great chatting..Regards from the UK. please check out some of my posts on RUclips.or follow wingchunhertfordshire on Facebook..
I'm lost.😅
It’s a lot to take in.
Oss👌👌👍👍👊👊🥊🥊🥋🥋🙏🙏
Thank you for the comment