One point that wasn’t raised is how insanely expensive some of those vintage horns are. The dividends you get for buying a $12,000 mark six wouldn’t really justify picking it over a fantastic $4000 Yamaha Z or something
There’s plenty of Mark VI’s that are not $12k, you’re thinking like the top end mint condition gold plated types. I bought mine for 6k about 2 years ago and plays extremely well. They just have a sound to them that not many other saxophones have. Nothing wrong with the Japanese ones, I have one myself as well and it plays great, but it just doesn’t sound as rich as a good Mark VI.
The resale value of a vintage MkVI will likely hold its value if cared for meticulously. A Yamaha Z, while a great sax will have a greater depreciation.
Get a horn what is easy to play on and it doesn’t cost you an arm and leg. I already ran into fancy expensive even very limited horns which had defects and was a real struggle to overcome on them while i played on them. The name and the price tag will not guarantee that you get a real nice horn. Sometimes a less known branded cheaper horn is much better.
@@NZotyoka81 Back in the 80’s some individuals were buying VI’s with the knowledge that they would increase in value. There is speculation that the Ref. 54’s will also increase in value. I always recommend my students to consider the resale value of a saxophone purchase. So, there’s that.
I've played both modern and vintage horns, and my take is that new horns tell you how you'll sound on them, while old horns let you tell them the sound. I used to play a Yamaha YTS-480 from my school, and it felt like I couldn't get anything other than a dark sound out of it. About a year ago, I went to my local music shop to buy my own horn, and I tried playing a 1921 Conn New Wonder. The beauty of the horn is that the sound comes out how the player wants it to, with no preset sound like I've found in not just my old hirn, but some other modern horns. Even the Eastman 52nd Street, which I still loved, had this problem. Edit: This is as someone who's never really liked the Mk IV because of it's pice.
From my experience, the mouthpiece does way more for your sound than the sax itself, for a dark sound on alto I recommend the Yanagisawa ebonite 7, awesome slept-on mouthpiece, especially on my Axos it just fits so well
well, I suspect if we had that we'd realise they both sound exactly like themselves either way, because the player (and perhaps mouthpiece) is overwhelming more influential than the horn; and that doesn't sell saxophones.
Interesting reflections on vintage vs modern. In the late 1960's I learned on a Conn alto that I borrowed from a friend. Then (in 1968) I bought a (brand new) Mark VI alto (for about $600+). It was a fantastic horn, which I played for 3 years (until it got stolen 😪). I now have a (second hand, from 1980) Amati that plays well.
Fun video, guy! My 2 cents is...the horn makes very little difference. If it's comfortable and it makes you want to play it, play it. Playing it a lot is what will make it sound good. While I'll confess the horn might affect the sound a bit, the sound really comes from the player, then the mouthpiece/reed, then the neck and finally the horn. For example, Dexter would sound like Dexter no matter what he played, even a student level horn. I did really enjoy listening to the two of you talk about what you love about your horns. Thanks, guys!
'Worn out' is usually down to poor build quality or poor repairs done to saxes than them actually wearing out. And in the majority of cases of a 'worn out' sax, that can always be put right by bushing the ends of long rods for a better fit between point screws, bushing and redrilling pillar holes and recutting threads as well as replacing rod and point screws if they're damaged or excessively rusted. There's not much that can't be done to tighten everything up if the mechanism is sloppy. Only Selmer decided back in the mid '60s onwards to spot weld various parts to the body tube which makes some repairs more troublesome than they ought to be.
I've been working as a sax tech for 15 years. I never would buy a Taiwanese horn for myself, because they are not built as well as some of the old ones. Mechanics (brass!) are soft on any Taiwanese, point screws are ALWAYS set up as pseudo point screws with many having free play in the action just from the factory. Soundwise they might be nice, but I am happy with my well built Mark VII. I guess for the rest of my life.
I am no sax tech but recon that the brass is very soft on my Trevor James RAW XS. The sound though, great! I also got a Selmer MK 7 tenor as well as a SBA from 1953. The Trevor James beats em both, soundwise.
I thoroughly enjoy my Bueschers, both of which are 1936-7 Aristocrats. In an ideal world, I’d have the key systems replaced with Yamaha key work but I still have a good time.
Hello thanks for the video. Jamie is the most smily teacher on youtube. I love its channel ❤. I think in the begining, vintages are harder to tune nice but if you play in tune with a 1923 Martins C melody, changing for a modern one is an easy thing. I started with the harder one, but I prefer it. The sound of old sax for me is better but I like the my modern for daily work. 😂
When I was shopping for an upgrade tenor 20 years ago, I tried many vintage horns, including several Mark VIs. I played newer horns as well and found that each horn was different and not necessarily related to its age. So, I kept trying until I found the right one - it was a Series III that has served me well for all these years and has allowed me "my sound." I feel it has the DNA of the Mark VI without feeling worn out, as many of the VIs I tried seemed to be. If you have the luxury of access to many different saxophones, I highly recommend trying as many as you can without regard to whether they are vintage or modern. Great to see Jamie on this channel!
I have played a couple of saxes and my favourite at the moment is my conn 26m. Absolutely built like a tank. It was the top of the line in 1935 😅 I also have a couf superba 1 alto that I love. I have played a few mark vi's and honestly they can be hit or miss. I am an expat that lives in Taiwan, and I agree with what a lot of people have said here. Although you can get a good sound out of the Taiwanese horns, there are a lot of corners cut in build and quality. New Japanese horns or old vintage is my preference.
I've just remembered something. When I was shopping for my first Bari Sax (back in 2018 or was it 2019?) I hunted for about 9 months. After a while I started leaning towards a new Yamaha YBS-62 (Mk1 back then). During my hunt I became informed that a store was in the process of fixing up a Silver Selmer Mark VI. This piqued my interest because my first two alto were both silver. Once this instrument was finally available to play test they also had just received a Keilwerth Shadow they were really excited about in part because they'd been waiting two years for it. They encouraged me to try the Keilwerth despite it being nearly 2x my budget. Stupidly I played it despite the price and fell in love with it after just ONE note. I thought perhaps this quality is what you got for this kind of money. So I picked up a more expensive new Selmer and tried it. I didn't like it. If I had a choice between the new Selmer and a YBS-62 I'd have taken the Yamaha every day of the week. So I decided to take the Selmer Mk VI because I figured if I could ever find a way to save the money for the Keilwerth Shadow at least I shouldn't lose much money on the Selmer. Now I have to pick a mouthpiece for the Selmer Mk VI. The salesman gave me about 5 mouthpieces. Told me to play them all and order them best to worst. I play for a while and he comes back and I've ordered them. We have a chat, he takes some away and comes back with a couple more. I play the new ones and am very quickly sold on one specific mouthpiece. He asks me why I liked that specific mouthpiece and my answer was that mouthpiece got me nearest the sound I was getting from the Keilwerth which I loved. He happily sold me that mouthpiece and the Selmer Mk VI. The wonderful end to the story is in the beginning of 2024 I was able to purchase second hand the exact Keilwerth Shadow I played all those years back.
This a great video. Thank you. My only issue, as a vintage horn player myself, is the focus on the MKVI as the only viable vintage horn option. There are vintage Conn’s and King’s and Buescher’s and Martin’s , etc. that will compete very well with the MKVI and in my opinion will out perform the MKVI in terms of sound. That’s just me though. One question, what is your definition of a vintage horn at this point? Maybe you have a video that compares those great vintage horns. If so I would love to see it. I love this kind of content so keep it coming. Great job!
I had a Tenor King Super 20 that was stolen in a home burglary in 2008 or 2009. I knew it was an amazing Sax then and I still miss it now. I hope I can get, if not my Sax back, another Super 20 in the future. Love the videos! Marshall
Play what makes you feel good, I am really enjoying a Conn new wonder from 1922. Just love the tone. I am so lucky to have. Mark VI also, but I just keep picking up the Conn. 😂
Interesting to hear these guys noodle to demo the horns- what comes out spontaneously in such situations gives a key to their taste, personality and creativity.
Nice video. I am a little bit curious why you Jamie choose to not bring your own horn, but borrow one in the shop. I was under the impression that one of the pro's with a vintage horn is that they are individuals and you develop a strong connection and preference for your very own horn.
How do you define what is vintage? By age, by being out of production? My Mk VII tenor was purchased new for me in 1976; still have it, still play it, still love it. I think most people now would call a VII vintage, but when in the intervening years did it become so, and why? Btw, I had a modern Cannonball alto, beautiful horn, and played well. I had an opportunity to play and purchase a MK VII alto just a few years ago, and while it needed some repairs when I got it, the sound is so much warmer and creamier than the Cannonball, and I’m glad I switched. For me, that alto IS vintage.
My Mk VI Tenor feels "at home" - I just made that statement in a discussion. In the other hand you have to keep it in a good condition and relate to a goid SaxDoc. Add this to all other costs - but it's worth every single cent..
All the jazz greats played the most modern instruments of their day.Who would not want to sound like their hero? But back in the day, their instruments were state of the art and new!
Great Video! I would be great to hear both of you play different vintage and modern instruments to hear the tonal variation. I think the sax should choose you rather than you choose the sax. I put a blind fold on when I chose my first professional sax so I wasn't swayed by the brands or age of the sax (I did walk out with the most expensive alto at the time though - Selmer Series II!) Personally, I love the precision and tone of a modern Yani soprano and the flexible tone and power of a modern Selmer alto. However, tenor-wise I love the super dark and resonant tone of vintage instruments like my SML Gold Metal from 1962. The SML was one of Selmer's competitors in Paris around the time of the Mk6 and, although it eventually lost out to the more modern tone and modern style keywork of the MK6, I'm drawn to the SML's tone - a cross between the the core of a Selmer with the darkness and resonance more often associated with vintage American saxes. We have so much choice now. It is truly a great time to play the sax!
I can really dig a good vintage horn that’s been kept really well man, there’s an alluring theme and feel of tradition and legacy there. Thing is though, I think a lot of people are falling into pretentiousness and guarding that pretentiousness with sophistry. Over the years there have been advances far beyond say what the 6 is/was, thing is there’s flaws in the oldies mechanism wise etc. sound wise some hit the nail on the head and still do. There are modern horns that far surpass the oldies and I’ll bet money the old legends would have traded their old horns for a modern one if they could have. Some modern horns imo are just thin sound wise, thing is a good well built horn sounds great regardless. Modern horns are better if you shop around and find the best of today, but in summery…it’s ALL about what you love, sound wise, looks wise and so on. Well made horns last and present are all good, preference plays a huge part. They no longer make legend like the mark 6 because they fixed the flaws, and likely to do so made so many changes it’s technically no longer the mark 6. Personally I think the Signature or even the Supreme are pretty much modern reincarnations of the mark 6, without the flaws and with innovation included. Probably explains the price tags too, on an individual basis I think you’d have to bring in mark 6 players and let them set up and play a Signature or a Supreme to satisfaction…it won’t have the vintage connection but it’ll have everything else and then some. Id love an old legendary horn sure, but to me it’s more a novelty than a must.
I think that this comparison is just presentation. For real comparison, both should play both saxophones with the same mouthpiece and reed. As we know, important is also player and the horn has probably the minimal effect on the final sound. Everything is about personal feeling. In contrast with cars and motorcycles, I prefer vintage saxophones and mouthpieces. Everytime when I take my Yanagisawa T5 in my hands I think, who and where played it in his 50 years life. Funny is, that Jamie is 1974, I am 1974, my sax is ±1974, my Dukoff mouthpieces are ±1974.... and Jamie plays like king and I not. Probably because I play only 6 years, heheh. Big plus for content with tenors, Jim!
Thanks for your thoughts. In this video it was less about trying to doing any too scientific, as the whole thing is so subjective - more just to showcase some old and new instruments and have a bit of a conversation!
I don't understand if people love the sound of older Adolphe Sax saxophones, why don't companies make them? With modern technology like 1-1 Bb, trill keys, single combined octave key mechanism, low A baritones, etc. but with that sweet, smooth sound older saxophones are known for?
In the past, the metal of s vintage horn was hammered… they dont do that anymore 👍 the saxophone worked like a bell with a bigger sound etc this technique is very timeconsuming and expensive… so there u have the answer 👍
@@flokeko6192 And then Selmer chose to buy precise machines and crank up prices stupidly high... For me Selmer holds JUST on history and a couple of working Mk6 horns... That's a shame...
This is a great video as always, the only thing is price point, A mark IV. Is not anywhere in my budget. How do I go about trying to find that tone from other manufacturers , can you find that sound without buying a markIV
i think a part of why companies don’t remake a lot of these old sax’s that people want is because i think even if they did remake them most people still wouldn’t buy them; and that’s mainly because people love buying vintage instruments because they want a piece of that musical history, and it’s sort of why you’ll find so many vintage and rare instruments going for insane prices. because even with modern day equipment and refinements people want something that is “authentic” i suppose.
I started playing Tenor with no thought about the Hardware Background. Later I knew it was a Meinl (Stencil from what?) Than I started to repair Sax, cause I'm curios about the technics. And so I got a René Guenot '32 into my Fingers. It was Crap, but as I finished I' m deep in love with the Sound. By the way, my problems with the left pinky doesn't exist. I'm always in fight with the "Selmer" Mensur. It seams Vintage was made for my Fingers. Thats the way I came to Vintage Sax.
@@paoloalbano4690 just had it re-padded and a few springs fixed. I found the left G# cluster heavy with the little finger especial small B Key as its in the middle. But I have. an Otto Link Mouthpiece and it sounds so smooth.
There's a lot of placebo in music but the truth is that the mouthpiece (bore, chamber, baffle) is where most of the tone comes from. At the end of the day, they all just sound like saxophones to everyone else. I'd go modern because if your sax gets stolen or destroyed its easier to replace and get the same exact key action/placement etc. that you're used to.
First and foremost neither a vintage sax or modern sax will make your tone sound good that’s up to you and the work you put it in. That being said I play a Mark VI alto as my main horn because it helps me get my sound the easiest but that being said I sound for the most part like me, no matter the horn but my MK VI just makes it easy. To touch on another great vintage great sax the King Super 20 is amazing but I also love the Selmer Supreme and Yamaha Atelier tenors. Just try out as many horns as you can and choose what fits you best.
I've heard people say that it doesn't matter what instrument and mouthpiece you play, but for some reason they themselves play selmer or something special. It always looks very strange when your practice contradicts your thesis. If a lot of people prefer old cars instead of new ones, then this is more a question for the manufacturer, not the driver.
That’s not really true I think. Modern horns are easier to work on and play in a lot of cases. I own both types, and there are certain passages I wouldn’t want to play on a Mark VI over my Japanese Yani, especially with no side F# key.
You didn’t mention the fact that when you buy a vintage/used horn you need to factor in the cost of any restoration/maintenance. I bought a used Yamaha for $900 but paid another $350 to get it playable. Went into it with my eyes open but it meant the cost of the horn was actually $1250 - still a good deal!
I'm yet to see a modern Taiwanese sax that's built well - there's always something that lets them down whether it be the point screws, the soft metal, the general construction, fit and finish and everything else. Whenever I recommend a brand new sax, I'd say anything made by a Japanese company beginning with Y and ending with A with my preference being the one with an M in the name as I find them better built and much easier to work on. I'd never recommend a brand new Selmer nor any other Selmer made since the SA80II onwards as they're built like crap. While vintage saxes can get worn out, there's no reason why they can't be rebuilt if cost is no object if they haven't been completely buggered about with. I had a Mk7 tenor come in for a service a little while back and that needed a ton of work done to it (even stuff that was overlooked when it was originally built) and other stuff that couldn't be done without resorting to major surgery which would've made the repair costs prohibitively high. The cost of the service plus all the other work needed doing ended up being almost the same cost as a full overhaul and there had to be a cut-off point because of the limited budget. Then I had an early silver plated MkVI which had been replated and the engraving buffed out where the owner wanted everything doing as they were given it and understood its value. They sold it for a good price (considering it's a replate) and got around £6k for it, so they recuperated the repair costs and bought themselves a brand new Yanagisawa TWO20.
If a vintage Selmer is properly maintained it will last at Least 2 lifetimes_. I am a 50+ yr pro player and woodwind technician. Same for a Conn.King or Buescher. I own a 1963 mark vi bari and a serie II bari. The vi is way more complex and responsive and lighter. My 54k and 129 tenors vibrate better and yield more overtones for me . I get to play many examples of every brand properly set up as a tech.
Is a mark VI really a vintage sax in anything other than age as most moderns saxes are based on the mark VI? Vintage anything else other than a VI versus a modern sax and I think modern would win hands down. Just a thought.
One thing I want to say about the Marvel MVI better have a repairman near by or learn how to repair your horn!!!! my case I live in a small island there is no repairman It's a night mare You need to take your horn for at least adjustments every 3-6 months max
just listening to the 2 demonstrations, I can't tell a substantial difference, so I'm not gonna watch the rest of the video because it seems like it's such minutia that isn't worth debating
Go and hear the Phill Woods anecdote with Charlie Parker and you will see how this topic is to say the least, stupid and for immature musicians (no matter their level). My idol plays this or the history that the instrument has and bla bla bla . Really ??????
Video is confusing: Andy Sheppard sax is extremely LIMITED run, no cost was spared going into it and it won't be made anymore. It is unavailable, gone forever, so it's already a vintage sax.
Huh? The designation of modern and vintage has nothing to do with availability., it’s mostly about the period and sensibilities of design. Saying something is vintage just because it has a limited run makes no sense. For example, a Yamaha instrument made today, if let’s say only 10 were made, we wouldn’t automatically call them vintage once they sell out
@@LeMelleKH2 In the above case we have a problem. Andy Sheppard line of saxes was produced MANY YEARS AGO as a very LIMITED run. The manufacturing method, cost, manual work, etc was totally different from regular production runs. The sax is already vintage, never to be repeated. But Mark 6 was once a REGULAR production, that went on for decades. The fair would be to compare the current production Selmer against the Mark 6, or at least pro Yamaha sax REGULAR production, or whatever from the REGULAR, ongoing production run.
From the dictionary: Vintage = the time that something of quality WAS produced. Therefore Mark6 and Andy Sheppard in this video are both vintage saxophones.
One point that wasn’t raised is how insanely expensive some of those vintage horns are. The dividends you get for buying a $12,000 mark six wouldn’t really justify picking it over a fantastic $4000 Yamaha Z or something
There’s plenty of Mark VI’s that are not $12k, you’re thinking like the top end mint condition gold plated types. I bought mine for 6k about 2 years ago and plays extremely well. They just have a sound to them that not many other saxophones have. Nothing wrong with the Japanese ones, I have one myself as well and it plays great, but it just doesn’t sound as rich as a good Mark VI.
The resale value of a vintage MkVI will likely hold its value if cared for meticulously. A Yamaha Z, while a great sax will have a greater depreciation.
Get a horn what is easy to play on and it doesn’t cost you an arm and leg. I already ran into fancy expensive even very limited horns which had defects and was a real struggle to overcome on them while i played on them. The name and the price tag will not guarantee that you get a real nice horn. Sometimes a less known branded cheaper horn is much better.
@@Craig2760Dude it’s not about investment. You are in a wrong topic.
@@NZotyoka81 Back in the 80’s some individuals were buying VI’s with the knowledge that they would increase in value. There is speculation that the Ref. 54’s will also increase in value. I always recommend my students to consider the resale value of a saxophone purchase. So, there’s that.
I've played both modern and vintage horns, and my take is that new horns tell you how you'll sound on them, while old horns let you tell them the sound. I used to play a Yamaha YTS-480 from my school, and it felt like I couldn't get anything other than a dark sound out of it. About a year ago, I went to my local music shop to buy my own horn, and I tried playing a 1921 Conn New Wonder. The beauty of the horn is that the sound comes out how the player wants it to, with no preset sound like I've found in not just my old hirn, but some other modern horns. Even the Eastman 52nd Street, which I still loved, had this problem.
Edit: This is as someone who's never really liked the Mk IV because of it's pice.
You may wish to edit again because you have written Mk IV (mark 4) instead of Mk VI (mark 6.)
From my experience, the mouthpiece does way more for your sound than the sax itself, for a dark sound on alto I recommend the Yanagisawa ebonite 7, awesome slept-on mouthpiece, especially on my Axos it just fits so well
I wish we could have heard them both play a vintage and modern horn. Great video either way.
well, I suspect if we had that we'd realise they both sound exactly like themselves either way, because the player (and perhaps mouthpiece) is overwhelming more influential than the horn; and that doesn't sell saxophones.
Interesting reflections on vintage vs modern. In the late 1960's I learned on a Conn alto that I borrowed from a friend. Then (in 1968) I bought a (brand new) Mark VI alto (for about $600+). It was a fantastic horn, which I played for 3 years (until it got stolen 😪). I now have a (second hand, from 1980) Amati that plays well.
Right! They might sound different from each other but the player can make any of those, vintage or modern, sound beautifully in their own way.
Going from a Mark VI to an amati😮😮ouch😮😮
@@JosephSalinas-r4r C'est la vie!
Fun video, guy! My 2 cents is...the horn makes very little difference. If it's comfortable and it makes you want to play it, play it. Playing it a lot is what will make it sound good. While I'll confess the horn might affect the sound a bit, the sound really comes from the player, then the mouthpiece/reed, then the neck and finally the horn. For example, Dexter would sound like Dexter no matter what he played, even a student level horn. I did really enjoy listening to the two of you talk about what you love about your horns. Thanks, guys!
I’m currently waiting on a King 613 Alto to be repaired. I love my SBA Alto over 25 years, but can’t wait to try this King I got for 225.00!!!!
I played many gigs with a guy that owned a Selmer Balanced Action. It was an old horn. He kept it serviced, and it played great! It never "wore out."
'Worn out' is usually down to poor build quality or poor repairs done to saxes than them actually wearing out. And in the majority of cases of a 'worn out' sax, that can always be put right by bushing the ends of long rods for a better fit between point screws, bushing and redrilling pillar holes and recutting threads as well as replacing rod and point screws if they're damaged or excessively rusted. There's not much that can't be done to tighten everything up if the mechanism is sloppy. Only Selmer decided back in the mid '60s onwards to spot weld various parts to the body tube which makes some repairs more troublesome than they ought to be.
I've been working as a sax tech for 15 years. I never would buy a Taiwanese horn for myself, because they are not built as well as some of the old ones. Mechanics (brass!) are soft on any Taiwanese, point screws are ALWAYS set up as pseudo point screws with many having free play in the action just from the factory. Soundwise they might be nice, but I am happy with my well built Mark VII. I guess for the rest of my life.
I am no sax tech but recon that the brass is very soft on my Trevor James RAW XS. The sound though, great! I also got a Selmer MK 7 tenor as well as a SBA from 1953. The Trevor James beats em both, soundwise.
I thoroughly enjoy my Bueschers, both of which are 1936-7 Aristocrats. In an ideal world, I’d have the key systems replaced with Yamaha key work but I still have a good time.
for classical playing?
@@ongtengkee9225 they can do it all. people just don't use them that way.
in fact most classical players wouldn't touch a Buescher either.
I have a series lll selmer bought 15 years ago and although sounds great I would love to have a mark VI as these horns certainly have character.
Hello thanks for the video. Jamie is the most smily teacher on youtube. I love its channel ❤. I think in the begining, vintages are harder to tune nice but if you play in tune with a 1923 Martins C melody, changing for a modern one is an easy thing. I started with the harder one, but I prefer it. The sound of old sax for me is better but I like the my modern for daily work. 😂
When I was shopping for an upgrade tenor 20 years ago, I tried many vintage horns, including several Mark VIs. I played newer horns as well and found that each horn was different and not necessarily related to its age. So, I kept trying until I found the right one - it was a Series III that has served me well for all these years and has allowed me "my sound." I feel it has the DNA of the Mark VI without feeling worn out, as many of the VIs I tried seemed to be. If you have the luxury of access to many different saxophones, I highly recommend trying as many as you can without regard to whether they are vintage or modern. Great to see Jamie on this channel!
I have played a couple of saxes and my favourite at the moment is my conn 26m. Absolutely built like a tank. It was the top of the line in 1935 😅 I also have a couf superba 1 alto that I love. I have played a few mark vi's and honestly they can be hit or miss. I am an expat that lives in Taiwan, and I agree with what a lot of people have said here. Although you can get a good sound out of the Taiwanese horns, there are a lot of corners cut in build and quality. New Japanese horns or old vintage is my preference.
I've just remembered something.
When I was shopping for my first Bari Sax (back in 2018 or was it 2019?) I hunted for about 9 months. After a while I started leaning towards a new Yamaha YBS-62 (Mk1 back then). During my hunt I became informed that a store was in the process of fixing up a Silver Selmer Mark VI. This piqued my interest because my first two alto were both silver. Once this instrument was finally available to play test they also had just received a Keilwerth Shadow they were really excited about in part because they'd been waiting two years for it. They encouraged me to try the Keilwerth despite it being nearly 2x my budget. Stupidly I played it despite the price and fell in love with it after just ONE note. I thought perhaps this quality is what you got for this kind of money. So I picked up a more expensive new Selmer and tried it. I didn't like it. If I had a choice between the new Selmer and a YBS-62 I'd have taken the Yamaha every day of the week.
So I decided to take the Selmer Mk VI because I figured if I could ever find a way to save the money for the Keilwerth Shadow at least I shouldn't lose much money on the Selmer.
Now I have to pick a mouthpiece for the Selmer Mk VI.
The salesman gave me about 5 mouthpieces. Told me to play them all and order them best to worst. I play for a while and he comes back and I've ordered them. We have a chat, he takes some away and comes back with a couple more. I play the new ones and am very quickly sold on one specific mouthpiece.
He asks me why I liked that specific mouthpiece and my answer was that mouthpiece got me nearest the sound I was getting from the Keilwerth which I loved. He happily sold me that mouthpiece and the Selmer Mk VI.
The wonderful end to the story is in the beginning of 2024 I was able to purchase second hand the exact Keilwerth Shadow I played all those years back.
This a great video. Thank you. My only issue, as a vintage horn player myself, is the focus on the MKVI as the only viable vintage horn option. There are vintage Conn’s and King’s and Buescher’s and Martin’s , etc. that will compete very well with the MKVI and in my opinion will out perform the MKVI in terms of sound. That’s just me though. One question, what is your definition of a vintage horn at this point? Maybe you have a video that compares those great vintage horns. If so I would love to see it. I love this kind of content so keep it coming. Great job!
I had a Tenor King Super 20 that was stolen in a home burglary in 2008 or 2009. I knew it was an amazing Sax then and I still miss it now. I hope I can get, if not my Sax back, another Super 20 in the future.
Love the videos! Marshall
Ah bad luck. That's tragic.
@@saxworldwide Yeah, the thieves were eventually caught, but my Sax was nowhere to be found.
Hey Jim what Mouthpiece are you playing on your Andy Sheppard there ? Did u switch up your Alexander superial?
Anyone knows?
Play what makes you feel good, I am really enjoying a Conn new wonder from 1922. Just love the tone. I am so lucky to have. Mark VI also, but I just keep picking up the Conn. 😂
Interesting to hear these guys noodle to demo the horns- what comes out spontaneously in such situations gives a key to their taste, personality and creativity.
Love the tone differences in Mr Jim's and Mr Jamie's playing
Nice video. I am a little bit curious why you Jamie choose to not bring your own horn, but borrow one in the shop. I was under the impression that one of the pro's with a vintage horn is that they are individuals and you develop a strong connection and preference for your very own horn.
How do you define what is vintage? By age, by being out of production? My Mk VII tenor was purchased new for me in 1976; still have it, still play it, still love it. I think most people now would call a VII vintage, but when in the intervening years did it become so, and why? Btw, I had a modern Cannonball alto, beautiful horn, and played well. I had an opportunity to play and purchase a MK VII alto just a few years ago, and while it needed some repairs when I got it, the sound is so much warmer and creamier than the Cannonball, and I’m glad I switched. For me, that alto IS vintage.
My Mk VI Tenor feels "at home" - I just made that statement in a discussion.
In the other hand you have to keep it in a good condition and relate to a goid SaxDoc. Add this to all other costs - but it's worth every single cent..
Jamie reminds me of Zoot Sims! Terrific!
You both sound great. Just wondering what mouthpieces were being played on the tenor examples. Thanks.
Very similar pieces really. Both Link based. Mine is a Retro Revival Super D NY; Jamie's is a Florida Link (original).
@@saxworldwide ok thanks much. You sound great.
A sax in my opinion is the Cigar of instruments. Classy
All the jazz greats played the most modern instruments of their day.Who would not want to sound like their hero? But back in the day, their instruments were state of the art and new!
What mouthpiece are you on for the bari? That sounded great.
I was on a 10MFan Infusion, and I can't quite remember what Jamie was on, but if his tenor was anything to go by, it may be a Florida Link?
@@saxworldwide Thanks!
Great Video! I would be great to hear both of you play different vintage and modern instruments to hear the tonal variation. I think the sax should choose you rather than you choose the sax. I put a blind fold on when I chose my first professional sax so I wasn't swayed by the brands or age of the sax (I did walk out with the most expensive alto at the time though - Selmer Series II!) Personally, I love the precision and tone of a modern Yani soprano and the flexible tone and power of a modern Selmer alto. However, tenor-wise I love the super dark and resonant tone of vintage instruments like my SML Gold Metal from 1962. The SML was one of Selmer's competitors in Paris around the time of the Mk6 and, although it eventually lost out to the more modern tone and modern style keywork of the MK6, I'm drawn to the SML's tone - a cross between the the core of a Selmer with the darkness and resonance more often associated with vintage American saxes. We have so much choice now. It is truly a great time to play the sax!
Ah, wow - an actual blindfold test for purchasing a sax - that's very brave; your principals are admirable!
I can really dig a good vintage horn that’s been kept really well man, there’s an alluring theme and feel of tradition and legacy there. Thing is though, I think a lot of people are falling into pretentiousness and guarding that pretentiousness with sophistry. Over the years there have been advances far beyond say what the 6 is/was, thing is there’s flaws in the oldies mechanism wise etc. sound wise some hit the nail on the head and still do. There are modern horns that far surpass the oldies and I’ll bet money the old legends would have traded their old horns for a modern one if they could have. Some modern horns imo are just thin sound wise, thing is a good well built horn sounds great regardless. Modern horns are better if you shop around and find the best of today, but in summery…it’s ALL about what you love, sound wise, looks wise and so on. Well made horns last and present are all good, preference plays a huge part. They no longer make legend like the mark 6 because they fixed the flaws, and likely to do so made so many changes it’s technically no longer the mark 6. Personally I think the Signature or even the Supreme are pretty much modern reincarnations of the mark 6, without the flaws and with innovation included. Probably explains the price tags too, on an individual basis I think you’d have to bring in mark 6 players and let them set up and play a Signature or a Supreme to satisfaction…it won’t have the vintage connection but it’ll have everything else and then some. Id love an old legendary horn sure, but to me it’s more a novelty than a must.
There are clear advantages to both, and I own both types.
My favourite sax duo of yt
Thanks!
Wow the dynamic dual.🎶🎶🎷🎷👍🏾👍🏾
Ha ha!
I think that this comparison is just presentation. For real comparison, both should play both saxophones with the same mouthpiece and reed. As we know, important is also player and the horn has probably the minimal effect on the final sound. Everything is about personal feeling.
In contrast with cars and motorcycles, I prefer vintage saxophones and mouthpieces. Everytime when I take my Yanagisawa T5 in my hands I think, who and where played it in his 50 years life.
Funny is, that Jamie is 1974, I am 1974, my sax is ±1974, my Dukoff mouthpieces are ±1974.... and Jamie plays like king and I not. Probably because I play only 6 years, heheh.
Big plus for content with tenors, Jim!
Thanks for your thoughts. In this video it was less about trying to doing any too scientific, as the whole thing is so subjective - more just to showcase some old and new instruments and have a bit of a conversation!
@@saxworldwide you both are perfect players and does not matter on which horn!
I don't understand if people love the sound of older Adolphe Sax saxophones, why don't companies make them? With modern technology like 1-1 Bb, trill keys, single combined octave key mechanism, low A baritones, etc. but with that sweet, smooth sound older saxophones are known for?
In the past, the metal of s vintage horn was hammered… they dont do that anymore 👍
the saxophone worked like a bell with a bigger sound etc
this technique is very timeconsuming and expensive… so there u have the answer 👍
@@flokeko6192 And then Selmer chose to buy precise machines and crank up prices stupidly high... For me Selmer holds JUST on history and a couple of working Mk6 horns... That's a shame...
This is a great video as always, the only thing is price point, A mark IV. Is not anywhere in my budget. How do I go about trying to find that tone from other manufacturers , can you find that sound without buying a markIV
i think a part of why companies don’t remake a lot of these old sax’s that people want is because i think even if they did remake them most people still wouldn’t buy them; and that’s mainly because people love buying vintage instruments because they want a piece of that musical history, and it’s sort of why you’ll find so many vintage and rare instruments going for insane prices. because even with modern day equipment and refinements people want something that is “authentic” i suppose.
The gerkier, the better. Great stuff
The tonal voice in your mind will determine your choice depending who you listen to.Same thing with mouthpiece
I started playing Tenor with no thought about the Hardware Background. Later I knew it was a Meinl (Stencil from what?) Than I started to repair Sax, cause I'm curios about the technics. And so I got a René Guenot '32 into my Fingers. It was Crap, but as I finished I' m deep in love with the Sound. By the way, my problems with the left pinky doesn't exist. I'm always in fight with the "Selmer" Mensur. It seams Vintage was made for my Fingers. Thats the way I came to Vintage Sax.
I heard the selmer ref 54 approaching the Mark six, is that true ?
It wasn't an exact replica of a Mark VI but it was very similar in geometry and design
@@saxworldwide and the sound is similar ?
I play a 100 year old Conn it sounds amazing.
Me too, both alto and tenor silver NW II...
@@paoloalbano4690 just had it re-padded and a few springs fixed. I found the left G# cluster heavy with the little finger especial small B Key as its in the middle. But I have. an Otto Link Mouthpiece and it sounds so smooth.
There's a lot of placebo in music but the truth is that the mouthpiece (bore, chamber, baffle) is where most of the tone comes from. At the end of the day, they all just sound like saxophones to everyone else. I'd go modern because if your sax gets stolen or destroyed its easier to replace and get the same exact key action/placement etc. that you're used to.
First and foremost neither a vintage sax or modern sax will make your tone sound good that’s up to you and the work you put it in. That being said I play a Mark VI alto as my main horn because it helps me get my sound the easiest but that being said I sound for the most part like me, no matter the horn but my MK VI just makes it easy. To touch on another great vintage great sax the King Super 20 is amazing but I also love the Selmer Supreme and Yamaha Atelier tenors. Just try out as many horns as you can and choose what fits you best.
I've heard people say that it doesn't matter what instrument and mouthpiece you play, but for some reason they themselves play selmer or something special. It always looks very strange when your practice contradicts your thesis. If a lot of people prefer old cars instead of new ones, then this is more a question for the manufacturer, not the driver.
@@AlexVolkhin13 the point being g you can sound good or bad on whatever sax you play on provided it’s in good working order.
I play the 2nd best after the Mark vi...king super 20 alto and tenor😮😊
I will admit i do like modern saxes as well for various reasons that jim mentioned.
Nothing beats vintage horns particularly Conn 10Ms specially playing ballads and jazz music....period.
That’s not really true I think. Modern horns are easier to work on and play in a lot of cases. I own both types, and there are certain passages I wouldn’t want to play on a Mark VI over my Japanese Yani, especially with no side F# key.
5:40 - I bet all the anti MkVI tenor with high F# key brigade are clutching their pearls!
My vintage sax was modern when I bought it!
You didn’t mention the fact that when you buy a vintage/used horn you need to factor in the cost of any restoration/maintenance. I bought a used Yamaha for $900 but paid another $350 to get it playable. Went into it with my eyes open but it meant the cost of the horn was actually $1250 - still a good deal!
Yes, this is a good point and should definitely come into the equation!
Preferred Jim on the Andy Sheppard TBH
Me too but I think it's competence on the horn though
I'm yet to see a modern Taiwanese sax that's built well - there's always something that lets them down whether it be the point screws, the soft metal, the general construction, fit and finish and everything else. Whenever I recommend a brand new sax, I'd say anything made by a Japanese company beginning with Y and ending with A with my preference being the one with an M in the name as I find them better built and much easier to work on. I'd never recommend a brand new Selmer nor any other Selmer made since the SA80II onwards as they're built like crap.
While vintage saxes can get worn out, there's no reason why they can't be rebuilt if cost is no object if they haven't been completely buggered about with. I had a Mk7 tenor come in for a service a little while back and that needed a ton of work done to it (even stuff that was overlooked when it was originally built) and other stuff that couldn't be done without resorting to major surgery which would've made the repair costs prohibitively high. The cost of the service plus all the other work needed doing ended up being almost the same cost as a full overhaul and there had to be a cut-off point because of the limited budget. Then I had an early silver plated MkVI which had been replated and the engraving buffed out where the owner wanted everything doing as they were given it and understood its value. They sold it for a good price (considering it's a replate) and got around £6k for it, so they recuperated the repair costs and bought themselves a brand new Yanagisawa TWO20.
Old and worn out you say? Don't confuse me for my axe.
To me, Jim sounds better on the Mark VI : ) More life to the sound! That's the real reason to play one...
If a vintage Selmer is properly maintained it will last at Least 2 lifetimes_. I am a 50+ yr pro player and woodwind technician. Same for a Conn.King or Buescher. I own a 1963 mark vi bari and a serie II bari. The vi is way more complex and responsive and lighter. My 54k and 129 tenors vibrate better and yield more overtones for me . I get to play many examples of every brand properly set up as a tech.
Is a mark VI really a vintage sax in anything other than age as most moderns saxes are based on the mark VI?
Vintage anything else other than a VI versus a modern sax and I think modern would win hands down. Just a thought.
A king super 20 is a highly regarded vintage horn. As well as an older conn.
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One thing I want to say about the Marvel MVI better have a repairman near by or learn how to repair your horn!!!!
my case I live in a small island there is no repairman
It's a night mare
You need to take your horn for at least adjustments every 3-6 months max
just listening to the 2 demonstrations, I can't tell a substantial difference, so I'm not gonna watch the rest of the video because it seems like it's such minutia that isn't worth debating
Go and hear the Phill Woods anecdote with Charlie Parker and you will see how this topic is to say the least, stupid and for immature musicians (no matter their level). My idol plays this or the history that the instrument has and bla bla bla . Really ??????
Video is confusing: Andy Sheppard sax is extremely LIMITED run, no cost was spared going into it and it won't be made anymore.
It is unavailable, gone forever, so it's already a vintage sax.
Huh? The designation of modern and vintage has nothing to do with availability., it’s mostly about the period and sensibilities of design. Saying something is vintage just because it has a limited run makes no sense. For example, a Yamaha instrument made today, if let’s say only 10 were made, we wouldn’t automatically call them vintage once they sell out
@@LeMelleKH2 In the above case we have a problem. Andy Sheppard line of saxes was produced MANY YEARS AGO as a very LIMITED run. The manufacturing method, cost, manual work, etc was totally different from regular production runs. The sax is already vintage, never to be repeated.
But Mark 6 was once a REGULAR production, that went on for decades. The fair would be to compare the current production Selmer against the Mark 6, or at least pro Yamaha sax REGULAR production, or whatever from the REGULAR, ongoing production run.
From the dictionary: Vintage = the time that something of quality WAS produced. Therefore Mark6 and Andy Sheppard in this video are both vintage saxophones.