LeMond/Hinault : the 1985-1986 Controversy
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- Опубликовано: 23 ноя 2013
- Interviews of Greg LeMond about Hinault in 1985 - 1986.
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Greg is an American hero, a Superstar to those who know and love cycling. Let it be known for all the suffering and hard work he has put into his career, he is one of the most respected and honorable individuals of this era.
Right. Because people who were on the edge of death 13 months before always run away from the best dopers on the planet naturally
He doped probably even more lance yet he had the audacity to talk shit. Dumb fuck
@@ALSNewsNow There was wide spread red blood cell boosting blood doping in cycling in 1989? Be a bigger clown my dude.
@@ALSNewsNowI appreciate your cynicism, but Greg is a very rare exception as an athlete.
I watch Slaying the Badger at least once a week. Such a fascinating story of these 2. LeMond is a legend.
I have that video also.
I was a junior at the same time as Greg and had the honor of racing against him at the LA Grand Prix.
It was a small circuit, and he lapped the entire field.
Twice.
wow. just wow.
I raced against him in Santa Cruz. He lapped the entire field.
I remember that race. After lapping the entire field twice, he twice fielded the entire lap. 🤯
Just goes to show. You can't beat genetics, natural power to weight, VO2 max and threshold power. You can train as hard as you like, but if you ain't born with it you have no chance.
Lemond was a phenomenal young cyclist up until the hunting accident he was unbelievably good. He has every right to be bitter and pissed off how things have gone if you ask me.
what's hilarious is that when US television was covering the TdF in '85, they were writing Hinault's name on the screen as "Bernard Ino" so the Americans could pronounce it... i remember thinking, Ino, that's a pretty weird French surname.
Greg did well in these circumstances.....he obviously showed he was capable of winning in 85...the fact he was on Hinault's team made the problem....at any rate they were both great riders....I had the pleasure of seeing Hinault in 1986 at The World Championship race at the U. S. AIRFORCE Accademy in Colorado in the fall of 86
The Tour is an amazing athletic event and takes incredible stamina training and skill to win
Am a massive fan of both Lemond and Hinault, both are true champions and I was lucky enough to watch their exploits first time around. I can understand Lemond's sense of betrayal but I think over the years what has transpired is that both of them were caught between a rock and hard place, what Lemond should take to heart is the fact that Hinault really did him a favour in the 86 tour, if Hinault had gifted him the tour then his victory would always be seen as politics or a hollow victory. As it was it made for a fantastic duel and a genuine victory for a very deserving winner. They are my favourite riders of all time, along with Eddy Merckx of course.
Mostly agreed except for the "did him a favor" part. The only one that did a favor to the other is Greg when he stayed behind Hinault on Alpe d'Huez. Hinault did a stunt that got him 5 minutes. Not because he was stronger, but because he was more of an opportunist. Then Greg took 8 minutes back from him. No contest, really. Hinault made everyone believe he had a shot at winning that year but when you look at the figures, it's just not true.
@@greglemondfansglf8341 yeah Lemond should have won 85 and 86, without the hunting accident there is really no telling how many more he would have won not to mention other races in the calendar. You could see how he wasn't the same after the hunting accident and his career was sadly cut short after 91.
The only favor anyone did, was LeMond. He was a great teammate to Hinault in 1985 and let (with some lying help from the team director) Hinault win, when LeMond could have trashed Hinault in the mountains and took the jersey for himself. I love Hinault as the great talent he was, but he was a prick (competitively speaking) and didn't do anyone but himself favors.
Poor Greg was such a pushover. Far too nice of a guy who cared about what other people thought. A good person is not always likely to be a Champion. If Greg had a killer attitude and had not been shot by his idiot brother in law, he could have won 5,6,7 tours...who knows. On a purely athletic basis...Greg was one of the greatest ever to pedal a bike.
shooter7a..........Sorry, but you could not be more wrong about Lemond being a 'pushover'. I lived in France in 1989 and got to see him 'in the flesh' in that year's momentous Tour De France as well as the World Championships in Chambery. His performance [particularly in the Worlds - when he rode virtually the entire last lap on a buckled front wheel after crashing on the extremely technical descent and in absolutely horrendous conditions] was simply stunning.
Indeed, Lemond actually outsprinted far more accomplished 'fast man' Sean Kelly to take the race and became both TDF and World Champion that year. His sheer grit and determination was unparalleled and you have to remember that he was riding for a relatively small team [ADR] as everyone had written him off following his injuries from the shooting accident. Lemond was a 'man on a mission' - totally out to prove everyone wrong and nothing and nobody would stop him.
I don't really care much for Americans as a rule - but I have the utmost respect and admiration for Greg Lemond, both as a cyclist and as a human being.
@@thesoultwins72 my comment was meant in regards to the way Hinault and Guimard manipulated Greg over and over, not so much about Greg's competitiveness and drive on the bike. When Greg decided to compete, he was fearsome. But a number of key times in his career, he was manipulated into not competing. THAT is what I was talking about.
@@shooter7a .........Mmm - I am still not convinced. When Lemond was originally signed by the La Vie Clare team both Guimard and Hinault made a really big fuss over him [even flying to the US, dressing up in 'cowboy' clothes etc to 'woo' him]. They both recognised Lemond's prodigious talent and the intention was for him to become Hinault's understudy.
Obviously, being SO good, Lemond progressed much quicker than perhaps they expected whilst Hinault himself suffered with terrible knee problems in 1983-84. Then came the 1985 and 1986 Tours de France - and the infamous falling out between the two riders.
Other than that I am not really aware of the 'number of key times in his career, Lemond was manipulated into not competing' you allude to. Can you be more specific and give actual examples of these?
@@thesoultwins72 I know all that...but Greg was naive and easily manipulated off the bike. You think Hinault, at the same point in his career...would have thrown the Tour like Greg did in 85? Slowed down and let the old guy win? LOL. Not a chance. He would have told his team boss to f*** off and won the Tour and worried about his ride later. But Greg was a foreigner and a babe in the woods when it came to politics. The funny think is, if Greg had put the knife in Hinault...then Hinault to this day would have respected Greg even more. He would have said "I would have done the same" That is the point I am trying to make. Greg was a pushover. He threw the game.
@@shooter7a ..........Oh hum.....seems your full of bluff and bluster. I asked you to provide actual examples of his being 'exploited' and your only response is to repeat your unsubstantiated claims that Lemond was a 'pushover'. Sorry - but it simply doesn't cut it with me.
And it is well-known that Hinault promised Lemond that if he helped him win the 1985 TDF, Hinault would ride for Lemond in 1986. I would hardly call that 'manipulative'.
Lemond was always 'his own man' - a more driven and focused individual I doubt you could meet. He was one of the very first Americans that realised that to be the best in his sport - you needed to live and ride in Europe. So that's exactly what he did! You also need to bear in mind that following his incredible TDF win in 1989 Lemond became the first MILLION dollar cyclist on the planet! To put that in context - when the truly gifted Irish cyclist Stephen Roche won the Giro d'Italia, TDF and World Championships in 1987 [a feat that will probably NEVER EVER be repeated] he was being paid approx US$75,000 per year!
Lemond single-handedly revolutionised the sport of cycling in terms of salaries, sponsorship bonuses, brand placement/use of equipment etc etc. Furthermore and due to his injuries from the shooting accident - he was arguably the first pro cyclist that 'targeted' certain races such as the TDF only. [a LOT of pro cyclists, directeur sportives and other 'traditionalists' were extremely unhappy with Lemond for this - see the attached video clip of Lemond and Eddy Merckx ''LeMond versus critics - RUclips'']. Yet Lemond stood his ground and many pro-cyclists today earn far more money and regularly prioritise races they do as a result of his efforts.
Please go talk to someone else ok - it's clear you haven't got a clue what you're talking about when it comes to cycling!
His career was destroyed by both the hunting accident and the epo usage beginning in 1991. Imagine a rider who finished 80th in 1989 showing up to the tour a couple years later and literally riding everyone off his wheel, cycling became like professional wrestling during that era, a complete farce.
Yeah i totally agree with you. I watched the tour in the 80's and into the 90's. I stopped watching when Indurain was destroying everyone by over 2 minutes in the TT's in '92, then came the Festina Scandal, then Lance's era, which for me was THE stupidest era in cycling.
Epo usage began in the mid 80's. Lemond used it to treat his anemia in 89 to win TDF and 90
@@williealston9120 Yup, still the ONLY American winner of the Tour. Love Lemond and hope he writes a book about his career soon.
Hinault has always said he wanted Greg to counter attack and show he was a true Champion yet his DS said not to attack so there was terrible miscommunication and confusion and too much politics. Greg should have never been on Hinault's La Vie Claire team as 2 leaders never works well.
Sponsors can hire who they want. It's up to the riders to negotiate terms if they want exclusive rights to lead or something like that.
correct, there is only one leader and another young man who let his ambition get the best of him.
It does not matter in the end. We all know what true champions and amazing athletes they both are/were.
no greg......YOU are the best athlete in the world.....
Greg LeMond is a world class sportsman, but to be a world champion cyclist he had to be willing to tell his DS and everyone else to stuff it and show he is willing to ride for himself. In the long run it would have been even more epic for the sport. I watched this all unfold in real time back when I myself was racing and I take nothing away from Greg LeMond. But on this one thing he was a little too nice. He should have said screw you I am going for it come and get me. Then he could be the one feeding "journalists" the line about how he was really helping Hinault, instead of the other way around.
I think they lied to him though. Back then the communications were just the car and your teammates voices. Otherwise he would have just took off and told that crogety old race director to Go f himself.
Lemond shouldn't be too dissapointed. He won three tours. He came in the time of Hinault. Like Merckx who lost to Thevenet 1975 Tour, Thevenet won again in 1977. Hinault would probably would of won more if he was taller in height. He use to climb out of the saddle alot in mountain stages, comparing to Merckx
LeMond could have won 6 Tours. He gave a victory to Hinault and he lost two due to that hunting incident.
You tienes tota la razón Europeos bullshit, I'm happy by lemon won tour
Ifs and buts.
How many did he lose due to the introduction of EPO in 1990/1991?
@@WithBACON get your facts straight, Lemond won in 1990. 90/91 were the pioneering yrs of EPO led by PDM. Not everyone used. Riders died from the experimental use of it. Indurain was the mule to thoroughbred example in 91 and after that the juice was loose. They figured out how much was too much so athlete’s wouldn’t die in their sleep.
@@JB-uv4hm That was my point. In 1990, Claudio Chiappucci also turned in a performance that didn't make sense given what he had done before. As GL notes, riders don't suddenly get good.
Huge fan of both riders. I always thought this got blown a little out of proportion. Yes, Hinault probably should have told Greg he would attack in '86 if given the chance. But Greg was also naive to not think Bernard would possible do such a thing. It was in Hinault's DNA to fight.
As the old saying goes, you're not given the title, you have to earn it. But in the end Greg definitely did earn it.
I'm glad they seem to get along fairly well these days too.
Well said !
Greg is honest----and thought Hinault could be trusted to keep his promise; but Hinault lackedthe character to keep his word.
@@richardgaines9450 That is hot garbage take. Sorry.
Lemond would have to be rube-level naive not to understand the stakes - Hinault was going for the all-time Tour win record. If Hinault sensed he had a shot at the title in 86, Lemond had to know he was going to take it.
If anything, Lemond is salty in large part because he came this close to losing it on the final time trial (remember he fell) - and Hinault fought him (living up to his nickname) every step of the way.
I get Greg’s frustration, but no way in hell would Greg not have done what Hinault did in ‘86 if he had a very legit shot at a 6th Tour.
Well, I don't know. Most people who heard the words, "I will suffer for him, as he has sacrificed for me," in 1985 just maybe would have taken that to mean that the following year, 1986, the person who said that would be helping, not undermining the person to whom those words were said. It's not clear if it was Bernard Hinault or the people that managed him like Paul Koechli who decided that this public statement was not any kind of agreement and were just empty words, and that Hinault should try for a 6th win at LeMond's expense. But the ribald actions of the 1986 Tour revealed Hinault's nature when it came to his sense of entitlement. It was also Paul Koechli who demanded Greg not try for victory in 1985. If there is a villain here, it's a toss-up between Hinault and Koechli and Greg was unbelievably charitable and gracious about their actions.
Perhaps this is a modern echo of European style colonialist practices of the past, that involve falsehoods to get something they want without any real intention of upholding their half of the treaty, as it were? Except this time it didn't work. Perhaps cultural differences between how French and Americans view contracts and covenants? Perhaps Greg was naive, but most people would have been, unless they are as bitter and cynical as a European colonialist with a hugely distorted sense of Manifest Destiny in cycling.
@@SanjaySingh-oh7hv What are you talking about dude? What utter word salad nonsense.
This is very simple, dude. Two hypercompetitive athletes, at the top of the field, both with about equal odds of winning, who happen to be on the same team, yet it is an individual event.
One, an established champion on the downslope of his career going for the alltime record, the other an up and coming star with championship potential.
Words mean nothing, gentlemen’s agreements mean nothing. You win on the road. Each man going for the jugular, may the best man win. As it should be.
Hinault did nothing wrong, and it would have cheapened Lemond’s victory if Hinault had been clearly holding back.
And the fact that Lemond beat two of France’s greatest champions where no one involved was holding back is one of the reasons why Lemond is still so revered amongst the French, despite being an American. 😉
"The main this is La Vie Claire wins the tour" Wrong! Greg was signed to that team to support Hinault in winning the Tour, La Vie Claire is like USPS, all about the leader winning, not the team!
He meant someone from the team winning GC. Not the team being successful in general
A true champion, who earned all 3 Maillots Jaunes.
I wonder why he said Hinault was the greatest cyclist that ever lived when Merckx had soooo many more victories??
Lemond was stronger, Hinault stayed too long, and trying to talk your way into a victory isn't the mark of a principled person.
What a tremendous man
That's right ,you won it fair and square.
Good for you greg!
There shouldn’t be anything controversial about what happened in 1985. After Hinault got injured at St. Etienne, Paul Köchli had Lemond mark Roche’s attacks without contributing to them. That way they were putting the squeeze on Roche and giving Hinault a chance to get back on terms. And if Hinault had totally blown up Lemond would have inherited the lead because he was already second on GC. There was no reason to just abandon one leader and put all the eggs in the other basket.
Greg is the best cyclist the USA has produced. The Doper of all time and disgrace to clean cyclist is Armstrong. If you have ever raced you would know this. I have the record to prove that I was a clean racer.
Hinauly made a promise to Lemond after Greg gifted him the 85 TDF.....and that was because Hinault knew, deep down that Lemond was already a stronger cysclist than himself and without Lemond's generosity, Hinault wins only 4......bottom line.....Hinault made a promise to lemond, and Hinault lacked the integrity to keep that promise......
Richard Gaines you have no idea what you're talking about.
Ty Jones.......right. I don't know what I am talking about.....CIA much?
It is clear that Hinault tried to take advantage of Lemond's loyalty and naiveté in 1986. He broke his promise, failed in his attempted treachery and then feigned loyalty to his word as an excuse for his failure. Weasel move by the Badger. To this day, he still refuses to acknowledge this or to say that Lemond earned his respect. But even the French media no longer fall for his deception. Listen to the great 2014 documentary by L'Équipe21.
EPO is awesome. Especially when it can't be proven any longer
epo wasn't introduced in cycling until the earlier 90s
I always knew who the True Champion was Greg and not the lying Lance the doper.
+alleexx469 They both are true Champions
I was talking about Lance Armstrong does not come close to Greg. And Hinault was not stronger than Greg at that point. Greg should be a 5 Time Tour Winner or even 6 time.
you're right and they've all always doped be it with EPO or pseudophedrine or caffeine , they've all always doped just like every other "pro" athelete
MrJay7777 caffeine lol, think you find that’s not really doping. ThTs like saying food is doping.
@@specialK312 NO. Lance is a Champion doper. Most people do not understand that EPO does not effect everyone the same. If the top 10 cyclists in the world all take EPO...1 does not remain 1, and 5 does not remain 5. Lance's body reacted to EPO better than others. The greatest doper ever was Indurain. He was an also ran in the late 80s. Look up his results up Alpe D'Huez....before EPO..and after. He was a P20-P40 climber pre EPO. Then after EPO...he was finishing in the top 5 every year!...and 7-8 minutes faster! His huge lungs and physiology responded better to EPO. He was not the best rider...he was the best doper. Same with Lance. Without EPO...he never wins a Tour.
He would've been 4 time champion if he went for it in 85. What a badass. Back when cycling wasn't a big effing joke and a proud sport .
I believe it was in him to win at least 5. Maybe 6. He was out for 2 years and on top of everyone.
Remember that Greg pretty much quit when the pace was getting out of control because of doping. So, without doping, his career could have continued even longer. To his amazing credit, he won most of his Tours on his own with little to no support.
And if he had not been shot...87 and 88.
The more the years go by the more obvious it becomes, hinault was a jackass who stabbed his teammate in the back, there is no debate
Maybe a bit harsh on Hinault... he just had to go for it, you know. I think it's mostly a lack of communication within the team and, yeah... a lack of integrity too ;-)
Great video. What class Greg has. I don't understand why teams won't allow the best riders to excel when the opportunity is there. It makes it so much more political this way. The 86 tour, it was him vs everyone and Hinault lied to him the entire time. He still did it.
Greg was the outsider, Bernard the champion.
They were both champions. Hinault is one of the greatest of all time--the fact LeMond was in his league tells you all you need to know how great LeMond was.
Standing where we are in history he is Greg Who: he is the American who failed to be Lance
Bullshit. Armstrong was a punk. Lemond is one of the greats.
You are delusional and/or and idiot. As 20 year old Lemond came to Europe without a clue...and won 5 pro races. He podiumed in the Dauphiné Libéré while working as a domestique for Hinault. In his first three Tours, Lance went DNF DNF 36th. In his first three Tours, Greg went 3rd 2nd 1st. If he had been more out for himself, and not subservient to Hinault, he would have won his 2nd. This was before EPO was even available. Yeah...there were drugs... Stimulants. Steroids in the off season...but none of those were really difference makers like EPO. You do not go from DNF DNF 36th to a 7 time Tour winner on ability. You do it on EPO and O2. By 91, EPO exploded in pro racing, and Lemond was RIDING THE SAME EXACT SPEED HE RODE UP SPECIFIC CLIMBS AT THE FRONT OF THE PACK IN 84-89. EXCEPT NOW HE WAS GETTING DROPPED BY EVERYONE. There are no miracles in cycling. What do you think was going on. Greg was going the same speed...and everyone else got faster. HOW? Idiot.
Don't follow cycling much, do you, dave? As far as history goes, Greg LeMond is the first (and at this point ONLY) American to legitimately win the Tour, and his final time trial to take the Yellow Jersey from Fignon in 1989, will always be one of the most legendary finishes to the most legendary cycling event of all time...and the fact he did it in a comeback following being shot makes it even more remarkable. Oh yeah, he won the Tour a total of three times and is also a multiple World Championship winner. Lance Armstrong was a drug using cheat.
Lemond gave Hinault a gift.... and one that almost no cyclist in the world would ever give. He should have just said FU and won 85'... He is really a 4 time TDF winner in my mind.
WanderleiSilva29 lol...
Interesting.
Greg Lemond was the last clean rider in the bike history.
What a cry baby
Prove to me that Greg wasn't doping too.
Because the dope at the time Greg rode DID NOT DO ANYTHING. Steroids and HGH do not make you ride faster. STRONGER in the gym...yes. Able to sprint faster...yes. But for riding a road race...especially a Grand Tour stage race with lots of TTs and climbing...NO. Stimulants can maybe help a little...if taken at the right time, but they are not going to push you up Alpe D'Huez 5 minutes faster. The only thing that really makes a huge difference is EPO and/or blood doping. You need MORE O2 transport for sustained aerobic output. All that stuff really started in 1991-1992. That is why Greg quit. He was going the same speed he always went...and was getting dropped on climbs by guys he used to drop. He said exactly that himself...and he was talking of course about riders like Miguel. Look at Miguels performances on Alpe D'Huez in the late 1980s. He usually rode it in 44-45 minutes...and finished P20-P40. After EPO was created and became available...MI was top 5 and riding it 6-7 MINUTES faster. The evidence that Greg was not doping is that when everyone else started doping (1992+)...he quit rather than join, especially after some of his friends DIED from it.
@@shooter7a Prove to me he didn't do anything then. Steroids don't make you faster? Pretty sure if my legs were stronger I'd go faster.
@@justinbouchard yes...but the rest of your body is HEAVIER. It is all about power vs weight. Lemond knew this even in the 80s... he was one of the first riders ever to pay attention to power output levels. Christ what is your problem. Were you ever even a competitive cyclist? What Cat were you? Who did you race against?
@Rob Good job. You literally said the exact same thing I did.
Lemond one of the few clean cyclists
Actually...at that time...they were all pretty clean. Not because they did not try things, but the things they tried REALLY DID NOT WORK. Steroids and HGH do not make you ride faster. STRONGER in the gym...yes. Able to sprint faster...yet. But for riding a road race...especially a Grand Tour stage race with lots of TTs and climbing...NO. Stimulants can maybe help a little...if taken at the right time, but they are not going to push you up Alpe D'Huez 5 minutes faster. The only thing that really makes a huge difference is EPO and/or blood doping. You need MORE O2 transport for sustained aerobic output. All that stuff really started in 1991-1992. That is why Greg quit. He was going the same speed he always went...and was getting dropped on climbs by guys he used to drop easy.
the only reason Hinault won in 1985 is because Lemond helped him-------in reality Lemond has 4 and Hinault has won 4.......and in reality, Lemond is the best rider of all time, NOT Hinault.........and Lemond is an angel amongst many devils, not the least of which is Hinault..........Lemond could have won in 84, 87, 88, 91, 92, 93, 94 if not for his carrying 34 lead shotgun pellets in his liver, heart and lungs ---thanxs to his stupid brother in law accidentally shooting him.........no GREG, YOU are the greatest, and would have beaten Merckx as well.......
Lemons won TDF and set the TT record. After getting shot.......he was handicapped by lead pellets and STILL won in 89and 90. There is no question if healthy he would have won 8-10 times and destroyed the field and CRUSHED ARMSTRONG each time ----- whose best finish before doping was 36th.