GAUGE THE ISSUE: Preservation, Legislation & Discrimination Accusation
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- Опубликовано: 19 сен 2024
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Any views or opinions expressed in this video are those of Chris Eden-Green. These are made without intention of offending anyone.
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Thanks for making this GTI episode, Chris! Totally agree with the points you've made here. Case-by-case assessment for those wanting to be volunteers with certain inconveniences SHOULD be how it's done by all heritage railways. I'm glad I'm not the only one who's had their volunteering application affected by this tunnel-vision mentality.
And it's not that the complaints are because we're "not getting our own way" - in reference to my case, a railway that holds a special place in my heart overtly dismissed my application altogether without even considering what _other_ departments my strengths would prove useful in if there was already enough volunteers in one section of the railway. To be honest, I never even stated which department I was hoping to work in but because of my previous volunteering in aforementioned department, the railway assumed I wanted to rejoin it which gave them the opportunity to dismiss my application completely without offering any suitable alternative. It's this tunnel-vision mentality I can't stand!
True, there are initial departments we'd love to work in, but even if it was evident I wasn't competent enough for the role, I'd be *grateful* to volunteer in ANY department. To summarise: so long as you're being part of the railway, working to keep the railway running and have the chance to mix with like-minded people is what ANYONE, with or without a disability, would want! (I think you summed it up best in the third paragraph @ 7:00 mark)
I have autism myself. When I was a teenager I volunteered at a railroad museum, and mentioned autism to my shop supervisor early on. He just shrugged, laughed a little and said "You and at least a dozen others here, don't worry about it". It was the first time I truly felt accepted for who I was. Not who I was despite, not who I was because, not who I was because someone says discrimination is wrong, but simply for who I am. A person absolutely dedicated to railroad preservation. Fast forward to January 2019 and I was offered a position at the Wisconsin Auto Museum maintaining their Lionel train exhibit. Fast forward again to September of 2019 and I completed the move to the town of Hartford, WI, where the Wisconsin Auto Museum is located. I make no secret about my "Disability" and the entire museum staff has accepted me. The Lionel exhibit was starting to deteriorate, and within months I had everything working, restored all the antique locomotives (Only modern locos were running when I started and even then some were close to dead) and have been recreating the original buildings for the layout, which is a copy of Lionel's 1949 New York showroom layout. The curator as noted an absolute passion and drive for the job, but also that I get a bit too into it at times, that with me having several physical ailments, degenerative disc disorder causing two discs in my back to slowly deteriorate, three other discs ruptured, sciatic nerve damage in my left leg, and some shoulder issues, despite all those, I push myself hard through the pain, to the point of being unable to stand upright, to get a job done. Plus I get a little technical when discussing the trains with museum patrons. They have been working with me on that, feeling the dedication and attention to detail, and knowledge of antique model trains outweigh the slight disadvantages I have. They've been keeping an eye on me, suggesting I head home to rest if they feel I am pushing myself too hard, if it's ovbious I am in a lot of pain, and have been working with me on the issue of being a bit technical with visitors. I think they have the right idea. Yes there are some disadvantages people like me can bring, but there are also some great advantages.
I have autism, I volunteer at my local heritage railway and I've never received any discrimination there. Everyone is friendly and they're all encouraging. I'm disappointed that the L&B would hide this though, they're better than that but i think this former guard had no need to say everyone there is bad, the last time i visited everyone was nice and polite and everything always seems to be in good shape. As much as i love the L&B and want them to succeed I won't to choosing sides on this.
I also have autism and it's the same thing I have never been judged or being targeted just because of it
I Have Autism Too
@@Idkjustgothere Same
What's Your Local Heritage Railway?
@@TankEngine75 Swindon & Cricklade Railway.
Its not fun, but we gotta take care of this kinda stuff. Theres a lot of work still to be done.
Here, Here!
Aye! Me too!
Here Here
Thank you for this Video I have a mild form of dyspraxia and I was a volunteer loco cleaner at a heritage railway and I enjoyed it but when I admitted to the staff I had dyspraxia. I never got anymore turns. I was doing more shed work than work on the loco even though I Had passed my PTS tests and studied the rules. I just left the railway feeling dejected, I thought why bother. Thus loosing interest in a hobby/activity that was close to. My heart. The attitudes of some people on the railway seemed to be like they were as anachronistic as some of the equipment at the railway. You are right in saying you need a thick skin too and take some banter but there is a limit.
I also thought the railway was like the land before time where it came to health and safety, I saw things that would make your hair stand on end. I’m saying this as my father was responsible for health and safety at his job in a power station. He saw some activities and he was shocked at how some people behaved.
I also volunteer as a first aider for a charity and just like a heritage railway we depend on people giving up their spare time to do these activities as you state, and we have to remember as volunteers we have to look after ourselves and colleagues. But I want that railway to thrive and I might go back another day. Thank you for this video.
Very well made video of what, I suspect, is an often overlooked area. I myself have an attention deficit, but have already passed out as a Diesel Driver, 2nd man, guard and currently a trainee fireman. Thankfully I've never faced any sort of discrimination as it is an extremely friendly railway, who made me feel welcome and appreciated despite my ADD.
It saddens me that incidents like this are occurring, especially on heritage railways. Of course, as you say, we have to look at both sides of the argument, something you have done very well in this video.
Love the video and I feel the pinch to because the puffing billy railway near my house is recently restricted the fun way of hanging your legs out the window because of the recent accident not involved in possibly instead of a crazy driver question to the side of it I’m really pissed off and I hope you get this message keep making your videos amazing
Victoria train Vlogs why would anyone want to stick there legs out the window? That just seems more like a way to be wheelchair bound and lawsuit ridden than good.
@@mattsmocs3281 @Matts Mocs. Look at Puffing Billy on RUclips - passengers (of which they now carry over 500,000 a year) have been sitting on the sides of the carriages with their legs out for 100 years without injury. See:
ruclips.net/video/NFVy1UJ_edg/видео.html
A recent level crossing incident where a mini bus driven by an overseas visitor collided with the side of the train at a level crossing protected by flashing lights has caused a (hopefully) temporary ban on this practice. Although NO train passengers were injured ( and the bus driver promptly scarpered back to China) the Management and Rail regulator were thrown into a panic. Public outcry against the ban has forced them to try and find a way of reinstating the practice - as the only risk is at level crossings. 10 million happy passengers have enjoyed this in the past and it is part of the Puffing Billy experience.
As an aside to the issue in question Puffing Billy has strict regular medical exams for all who want to be in operational positions on the railway.
Hi Chris I am a volunteer on a heritage railway with learning difficulties and Epilepsy but I have a good story where I am I am seen as a valued member of the team and part of the group. Having said that Discrimination in this day and age should not be happening full stop and if you are victim of discrimination please report it and talk to a friend or someone you trust as you are a valued member of society
My experience of one particular 'big league' heritage railway was that whilst it had on the one had carefully recreated the 1950s railway was also stuck with those attitudes, particularly homophobia. Which is very, very sad. Happily the TalyLlyn is a shining beacon in that regard, and for acceptance and understanding of the wide variety of people who come to volunteer on heritage railways. I hope others can follow their example.
Good stuff stuff to wake up the management of all lines and take care of the less fortunate of people who WANT TO HELP. Wanting to help is 75% of the way to becoming a useful member of the railway. There is a place for everyone in the sector.
The actual abilities of people need to be assessed and then be open with them.. you can do ABCD but not YET FGHK with help training and experience they may get to FGHK.... and they will feel wonderful that they are improving and helping with the railway.
The sector needs “ feet on the ground” no matter what a person can do it is always a help. It also shows the organisation is “behaving”... Amacf
Well, since everyone is talking about their experience, I might as well give mine.
I have autism, which affects my ability to socialise with people. I was seen as the quiet kid that got on with their work with no fuss. While, this last part isn't strictly relevant, it does show what type of person I am. I volunteer at the NYMR currently, but I am on hold due to a report that was put against me.
When City of Wells arrived this year to replace Union of South Africa, I was restored for the last day, originally to be a cleaner (it was my first proper turn since I received my PTS in October), however when the roster was released, I found out that I was rostered to be an assistant fireman on the J27. I thought it was a mistake and that it would be rectified, but it wasn't. So I showed up on the day with everything I need and went on to help prepare the J27 before leaving the depot. Side note: This wasn't until two weeks after my incident, but I found out the driver and fireman are well known to talk between themselves and not other people.
Anyway, throughout the return journey from Grosmont to Pickering, I did what was asked of me to do which included bringing coal to the front of the tender, helping with the water tower and other little bits and pieces, we came back to the depot, washed up, signed off and went home and that was that. Later that same day at 8PM, I receive an email that says that a report was put in about me being on the footplate and that I was not to be allocated anymore turns for the time being (This was other a month ago since I received that email and I still can't volunteer). After calling up the footplate manager, asking for the reasoning, I was given two things; 1. Lack of Observation and 2. Inability to complete a certain task (yes, that was what he said, nothing specific).
I understand the first point because while we were out on the line, I was in a corner of the cab of the J27 with limited space so I was more or less on the edge of the cab, at risk of falling out because there were no cab doors. I will admit fault to that, but wouldn't you want to make sure where you were stood to make sure you didn't fall out? After a few emails, it became apparent that the plan was for me to leave the footplate department for a few years and then return, giving me some sort of impression that they think I am a trainee fireman, when I am just a cleaner.
I should clarify a few things as well. That turn was my one and only turn. My last turn was my provisional turn back during the summer in 2018, I did my PTS test in October and got my HOPS account in November and with the Christmas roster already being released at the time, I couldn't volunteer until the start of the season in 2019. Since that report, I have making steady progress in fighting this with a meeting next week with the traction inspection. Also, remember how I said I have Autism, I had that put down on my application when I signed up and it wasn't anywhere on my medical profile (volunteers that use HOPS will understand what I mean as only admins can edit that information). Not to mention, when the report was made, no attempt was made from anyone at the railway to contact me for my side of the story. The staff there haven't taken the time to establish all the facts and because my medical information wasn't on there, all the blame has been pushed onto me, making them think I am not competent to be on the footplate.
This whole incident should have been resolved within a week or two, not a month and a half.
Ultimately i totally agree that anyone who has proven that they can do the job should be given a fair crack of the whip, but if we are being realistic their is no way they would be able to block people from working because of the equality act. Legally the case would fall apart as it is flat out discrimination due to a persons 'ability' which if it has not been tested on a case-by-case basis as bigger railways are doing can hardly be called a fair assessment.
I do however share the concern that the ORR could throw in some sort of legislation the will be Ham-Fisted at best, it cant be a one size fits all law as it may cause certain railways to collapse completely, and that is one of the last things i want to see happening, the other is someone being injured or god forbid killed because they were working in an unsafe way because of some sort of hindrance they have had since birth.
Case-by-case is the way forward, but it needs to be done in a manor that is practical for all railways to achieve. Even if that means an independent body doing the assessments on behalf of the railways.
locomotiveAlex1996 you will that all laws are one size fits all as not all situations can be included in the legislation. It is the interpretation of the law by the courts that fills in the gaps as each unthought of situation occurs.
As an aspergers person, I know what my limits are, and I cannot govern how others perceive me. On my side of the pond, volunteers cannot do certain jobs. Period. The red tape and regulations have kept a lot of groups from running a full size train. The Federal Railroad Administration expects all operators of trains from Amtrak to the smallest operators to abide by the same set of rules for operating employees. There’s no option, just the rules, as set by the FRA and the health and safety police, which in the USA means the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, or OSHA. They tolerate nothing. That said, I could get a waiver, but guess who pays for the lawyer, the doctor and the hearing expenses. ‘Nut said.
I have autism and have had a driver experience day on the GCR last year. everyone who volunteered were amazing. unfortunately, every place has those discriminating idiots. im shocked that the L&B would hide this issue like cowards. but Alistair retaliating wont help. it should have been reported to the ORR first. discrimination is like a stab in the heart when you are struggling with your disabilities etc. i really hope the directors and managers at the L&B and Alistair all learn from this.
This is the kind of thing I have experienced at a railway. The problem is that some railways don’t accept the results of said case by case reviewing, which isn’t fair and mine was one of them, in which I was given a note of not totally perfect eyesight but I knew I was competent enough.
I’m now part of a small league railway in which they have assessed me and said that I got 100% on my flag test, which proves I’m fully competent in my eyesight.
Intresting.
I used to work at the L&B as a trainee cleaner/fireman.
I was once shouted at by one of the drivers to the point where I had a mental and physical breakdown in veiw of members of the public. The driver in question then ignored me for the rest of the day, and even when I wwas crying ignored me when he walked by me.
A total misunderstanding on my part, being autistic I sometimes say something, but mean something the polar oposite. And the second reason being that I dont drive, so had to get the bus there every day I was there arriving at about half past eight in the morning (only an hour and a half after the loco crews). I dont drive, a taxi would cost far too much, and I cant always rely on getting a lift with someone so the bus is the only option i had.
We then wrote a letter to the L&B informing them that I have aspergers and mental health concerns, and that the events of that day affected me more than it should have. And as far as I know never heard a word back on the matter, we were promised a phonecall back. But apparently we kept missing their calls, I cant say if thats correct or not as I dont go anywhere near the office.
But, I find it hard to belive that EVERY time L&B phoned us we missed it. On average there are 7 members of staff at home (i live in supported living) and always at least one person in the office manning the phone and the front door.
Take this as you want but, its odd.
down here in New Zealand I had volunteered at my local heritage railway for less than six months before they let me take an engine for a drive (and I'm not even out of school yet) , always incredibly friendly to me when I go out there, everyone just needs to move to NZ
Thats Right Chris I have Autistic Spectrum Disorder but I won't let it get me down even thought I Volunteered with Clan Line for 6 years keeping her going and I won't let discrimination get anywhere
Regardless of the equality and discrimination accusations, the health and safety paperwork accusations are immensely serious. They are also easily provable or disprovable. There should be rosters of people on guard duty. There should also be paperwork of who has been passed to perform such duties. Check the two sets of paperwork, cross-reference and the allegations can be dealt with one way or the other.
If those health and safety allegations are true then the operation needs to be shut down and the current management replaced. It is completely unacceptable to have such a lackadaisical application of such basic safety fundamentals in a dangerous environment like a railway. If those health and safety allegations are not true then the railway needs to sue for defamation.
As for the question of discrimination: the question is not whether it is discrimination or not? The question is actually is it LEGAL discrimination or not? If someone's disability actually prevents them from being able to undertake a safety-critical role safely, even with reasonable adjustments in place, then discriminating against them is not only legal but mandated. In this particular case it would be for a tribunal or court to determine whether such discrimination took place and if it did occur whether it was necessary for safe operation. Until such a determination is reached then it is virtually impossible to form a correct opinion of what occurred.
Wow. That's definitely unacceptable. Alongside being a UK railway enthusiast, I'm also a fan of Thomas the Thank Engine/The Railway Series. This video has given me strength in terms of wanting to write a story about this, thus spreading the matter further.
OMG this is Hot stuff. Can you Put update in future.
If true, this situation is saddening. If it is a pack of lies it is also saddening. I think you have summed up the situation fairly.
The H&S laws in this country simply state that the employer mudt put in place safe working practices so that all employees (and this means anyone working for the company whether paid or unpaid) or visitor is kept away from all reasonable considered dangers. Whether those practices are a physical restriction on something or training it doesn't make any difference.
I have a stammer and mild dyspraxia, and used to volunteer as a station assistant on a well-known line in Gloucestershire. Unfortunately, after completing 4 or 5 shifts and becoming a member, I was told I didn't look like I was enjoying my role, and moved into carriage cleaning.
I later informed the railway I could not attend on Mondays to do this, as I had to work, and never heard back from them.
Superbly done mate, I am waiting to see where this issue goes, hopefully who ever is right or wrong (And having read the post myself I feel that there are areas where both sides could learn) the outcome will be made known as it is a big issue within the sector, and we could all learn from what has happened here.
Your comments regarding dyslexia are particularly close to me.
I am a driver on the 'Big Railway' and know only too well about the whole subject of perceived ability to perform my duties with regard to health and personality difference ( officialdom calls it personality disorder, a term i HATE, I am not disordered just different, the same way people have different coloured hair )
The issue is culpability, officials, managers etc don't want to commit to allowing someone to take up duties that require a certain standard for fear of future consequences, The railway culture now means that when an incident happens those in charge try to find ways to make sure they are not in anyway to blame, So giving someone permission to take up duties that require a standard who has a real or perceived deficiency could be considered a risk too great, For if an incident happens the blame game starts, everyone seeking to absolve themselves and an easy answer/get out is to blame any real or perceived deficiency of the worker involved in the incident and by extension the person who allowed that worker to take up the duties in the first place. Hence the culture of anything less than perfection will exclude a person from taking up duties that require a standard.
Well, as a person with Asperger's myself, I'm naturally for the inclusion of everybody who wants to pitch in, but I also realize that the last thing we all want is somebody getting hurt or killed, hence why there are the laws and regulations.
If nothing else, I figure I'd get into 5 inch gauge and do it all myself at home if I couldn't get anywhere with the full-scale railway scene.
I don't really know how the L&B Guard argument will be sorted out. However I do know a solution to the Flying Scotsman-
A couple of decades ago the train was running on a secret timetable and although there would be a lot of outcry from the crowd now, it would a lot safer as nearly no health-and-safety-ignorant people would be trespassing on the trackside during the train's running.
I think in the days pre internet secret timetables could remain that way. Probably not possible now I fear
I believe you presented the matter very well. Thank you!
I agree with chris. There are hundreds of types of autism but there are many that only effect behaviour. That wouldnt affect someones IQ or physical fitness.
Great video. Issues like this must be covered.
have dyslexia and I volunteer on 3 heritage railways and I'm a hard working volunteer jumping into any challenge head first it could be track laying to being a spotter when shunting to driving narrow gauge or monorail locomotives I'm looking at becoming a driver of standard guage diesel's my hand righting are awful but I try my best I know people who have autism and many others with disabilities who also work there hardest so far I have not come across anybody saying we cant do this or that sometimes even asked can I do certain jobs ie help out with TTI duties or crowd control
My friend who used to work on the south Devon railway has autism he got to work in the shed but one more than one occasion he was told to do something he wasn't trained for or even qualified for the worst being stripping out a coach this seems ok but he found he was working with asbestos without a mask or any safety gear when he said to the railway what was in there they pretty much blanked him thankfully he hasn't had any health problems since but still it shouldn't have happened plus he had numerous accounts of discrimination about his disability in the end he walked out and gave them the finger I could go on as I have heard many stories about that railway over the years from many past volunteers.
My point Is dont let people say you cant do something if you are physically up to it and if they put you into a job that you are not qualified for report them
As an asperger person myself...
What a bummer. If I don't succeed at making video games, and choose railway work, well....I'd choose carefully what heritage line I would work for, since i don't want to end up on one that discriminates my type...
When I was at Ribble in Preston the chap in charge of footplate training refused to put me on the training list as he claimed I wouldn't cope. Which was BS if you ask me as other people said I could become a good fireman.
You made some very fair points.
funnily enough, I was refused the ability to volunteer at the severn valley railway due to my aspergers, however it was explained that it was due to their insurance. I don't condone discrimination at all, after all, I am homosexual & with my aspergers, I have been discriminated against in the past but the impression I get from the SVR, it's not a discriminatory issue but more of a cost & legal issue & I'm wondering if the case focused on here was a result of similar circumstance
You were lied to then. "Insurance" is NOT an adequate reason for discriminating against someone with Asperger's Syndrome.
There may well be a case for not having someone with the condition in a public-facing role such as retail work due to the genuine problems with social interactions. However this would need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Some people with the condition can learn soft skills remarkably effectively.
In a non-public-facing role the condition could actually be a significant benefit: rigid insistence on sticking to safety procedures for example.
@@davidpnewton they did tell me of two incidents that the railway had due to volunteers with aspergers, once involved a guard who got in an argument with a passenger & then proceeded to slam all the doors on the train, smashing the glass, the other involved a P-way volunteer who would jump in front of trains as they were coming down the line. I agree that it's not an adequate reason for discrimination but I'm not suggesting it's discrimination but more of an issue with costs & legality
@@GreyTheFloydianSergal the guard incident I can believe. Being a guard is a public-facing role, as well as a safety-critical one. If a passenger was not behaving in a way the guard thought was apporopriate then I can certainly see an argument occurring. Aspergers would exacerbate that situation due to the rigidity of following the rules tendency of the condition. The door-smashing is a little less plausible, but still within the bounds of possibility.
The permanent way jumping in front of trains? Nope. Don't believe it. I'm not saying it didn't occur. What I'm saying is that the occurrence had nothing to do with Aspergers. It is precisely the opposite behaviour someone with Aspergers would display. It is completely against safety rules to do that and so someone with a condition linked to obsessively following rules would not do it due to that condition.
Someone with autism itself I could believe doing it. For example they might have got sensorially overwhelmed and done something stupid as a result.
However blanket discrimination based on those two incidents is illegal. There is no room for ambiguity there. Someone could bring the EHRC crashing down on the railway for that stance.
Could I operate as a volunteer in a non-public-facing role? Oh yes. Can you guess what condition I have been diagnosed with?
I was flat out rejected to go to a small railway because I wasn't "qualified" to do any of the jobs and it would be "not worth bothering with" I have both mental and physical problems but theyre not obvious I didn't even get that far with trying to apply ...
If they're no voulenteer then the railway closes simple so if the railway becomes too picky then it closes just because someone has a medical issue doesnt mean they're unable to do the job without issues.
If an engine has faults which should prevent it being lit upand steamed then you fail it even though you have nothing else. These days that goes right down the line to using guards who shouldn't be working solo when you have no one else. One big incident and the legislation will tighten enormously! Across the board , for all railways.
However a square peg cannot be made to fit a round hole no matter how well intentioned various parties might be. As a volunteer fireman on a still predominantly steam worked line, I have seen cleaners on our roster who I have KNOWN will never be suitable as 3 rd man let alone make it to fireman as they are not suitable for 12 hours on an engine. No fault of theirs but its just not the environment for them. If you can't do it all , on your own , then its not safe or fair to expect others to make up the difference. I'm no mountaineer, I wouldn't try to climb Everest as I know others would end up pulling way more than their weight. You can't change the job like you can't change the mountains, to be more accessible. So sadly some will be excluded, in what used to be called a weeding out process. This NOT any comment on the situation on the L& B. As you said, he was by all accounts a very good guard, according to his colleagues.
Treat people fairly, encourage their strengths and keep the paperwork in order. All very important things
Now this is definitely an important topic of debate for the railway circle, one which I’m best trying to view from all sides. Having dyspraxia myself perhaps makes me biased, but thankfully not to the extent of becoming a raging keyboard warrior. Railway preservation is undergoing troubling times at the moment, what with first trespassing possibly banning some engines from the national network, and now this. It’s important that such conflicts be dealt with as calmly as possible and hopefully with understanding being reached between all parties. Yes, heritage railways must meet safe working requirements to make sure that people visiting them remain safe, and that does mean staff should be trained sufficiently and be placed in roles that best meet their skills and requirements. That being said, people with disabilities either physical or cognitive shouldn’t be sidelined if they can prove themselves able to meet all of the training and safety requirements that the role they’re seeking requires, and if not the railway should be understanding and attempt to find another position that this volunteer can work in safely. It’s definitely a can of worms, but one that’s better to be opened sooner rather than later.
As a person with aspergers and involved in the hobby (albeit in miniature (7&1/4 inch and 5 inch)) I do get upset when I hear stories like this. The way both parties have acted on this issue is not right. Alistair should not of vented his spleen on social media as he has done, as he has now made it even harder for himself to find another railway to take him on, for the same reasons whistle blowers often have to find a completely new line of work.
As for the L&B, no matter how true or false the claim may be, mud sticks, and removing their social media posts as they have done can been seen as a admission of guilt, as well as potentially hurting themselves by casting doubt on those wanting to volunteer.
My own personal opinion is that, within reason (the medical world comes to mind), if you can do the job to a high degree of competence, then it shouldn't matter about gender, race, religion, education levels, sexual orientation, personal sexual identity, psychical or mental disability or any other hosts of reasons, you shouldn't have anyone bar you from doing said job.
The bluebell railway did this to me just because I was autistic
One possible avoidance for the color blindness is have white signal markers. Here in America, and I don't know if anyone else does this so excuse my ignorance, but some of the major railroads use white signals with the position determining its meaning IE 3 lights straight up means all clear, at a diagonal means warning and flat across means stop. I know it's ONLY one solution to ONLY one side, but hey, it could work
Wow. That hit me hard. - In a positive sense of course.
Thanks Chris.... :)
Very very very well said.
All good points, Chris. Well done.
Gauging the issue but with a feeler gauge, I see
To be honest theses people have been discriminating for ever on these Heritage railways the people that volunteer are the people that keep these railways alive it doesn’t matter what you have wrong if you passionate about it then try your best before these ass holes Ruin it