I want to expand on some of the comments here about online presence and IRL draw being two different things (I agree 100%). I'm a big fan of Mary's RUclips channel and deeply appreciate her openness about so many music and music-related topics. BUT....while she is a definitely skilled musician, I don't much care for the music she creates and would likely pass on an opportunity to see her play live. I have no idea what percent of her fan base might feel the same way, but when I watched her postmortem video and learned that she sold ~60% of available tickets, I wondered if she overestimated the % of her channel fans that would be likely to come to her shows. I can imagine that is really difficult to suss out until you've actually taken the leap and done it. So good on you, Mary, and thanks for sharing. And thanks, Mike, for your perspectives as well.
I'm with you all the way. As far as looking at this with onstage and on video, at least she's not a looper up onstage all by herself. I've done a lot of gigs where the band supported a front-man who couldn't keep it going himself, so it's nice she had a back-up band to fall back on.
This is the difference between being popular on social media vs being popular on stage. Social media rewards quantity over quality whereas musical performances reward the opposite.
bro, that was an amazing road worthy analysis of what she did, i'm a geezer, 54, in 2023, crushed out 5 months in western canada, 5 provinces and 50 shows, booked it myself, all done with pick up bands and no merch, but in the prairies of canada we had a blast, packing 100 - 250 rooms, based on our name, horse funeral band, we always made money in the prairies of canada, despite long distance traveling, but i know how to tour, there's always a band house to crash in at a university and i always sleep in the tub, lol, no crabs or bedbugs, but we were always depressed coming back to british columbia because it is so expensive to tour here, gas ,food, and it's mountainous as fuck, so you burn through more fuel than the prairies, british columbia cost of living is also so brutal that the people can only afford one show a month and it's gotta be a banger, so new bands have to fight against that. it's a fucked up situation.
Great breakdown, very informative without belittling her in any way. Mary's fans will love the respect you show her and her efforts. I SUB'd and then went to look at The Rumjacks. I was laughing when I realized I had just watched your "viral video" 2 days ago! (SUB'd there also). Then I watched your "An Irish Goodbye on St. Valentines Day" and was even more impressed. Hope to attend one of your shows someday!
Thanks for this post. It tagged on to Mary's your video or I would not have see. It is a great support and helpful post. While I have no intention of touring (way too old and unskilled for that). It was informative. Thanks again.
I was on the road in the early 80's and we used a booking agent and they did a decent job but routing was not always the best. We always stayed 3 to a room. We got paid by the week and there was no extra money for food. We survived by living on one or two meals a day and living cheaply at home. I did it for three years and I managed to come out on the other side with out being broke. But there was little money to be made. But the band got really tight and eventually got within a hair of being signed with a major label after they put the band up in New York for a week and cut a demo in their studio with their engineers and producers. I have heard of many bands going broke going on tour and doing an album because of all of the cost involved. Still, I made many friends while on the road and am still close with them today. For that I am thankful.
I watched Mary Spender break down the cost of the tour and I think a lot of the issue is that over half of her RUclips fanbase live in the U.S.. Opposite your situation she would probably do better here.
What??? Do you not believe you should pay your friends? If you were in a band and nobody else is getting paid, I really hope you don't expect a check either 😂
@@LegsON First it requires you making music people actually want to hear. Then it might require you opening for a more popular band. I discovered two really great bands/artists in the past few years when they opened for the acts I paid to see. Cherry Glazerr opened for Slowdive (90s shoegaze band) and I was forever a fan. She was headlining her tours right after that. Also saw a band call Prism Bitch open for Built to Spill. .They're slowly getting some attention - but doing their own tours now. While both bands have a youtube presence, they're not trying to get music fans by "talking" on youtube. People have this ridiculous idea you can build fanbases on youtube by doing other things than playing your music. I myself was in the 1980s LA punk scene, toured the country, put out independent albums and still get small royalties. It was called the DIY movement. But it was a "scene" with a following and you had to earn people's attention by playing live - a lot. And traveling and sleeping in vans. Eating food from grocery stores, not restaurants. People who actually attend shows and concerts find out about new acts at shows and concerts - or independent radio (almost gone today, but LA has it).
Her video was a good breakdown of the reality of touring. And probably a lot of lessons learned, which she was kind enough to explain to her audience. And she got a lot of advice in the comments from old hands. If you look at the losses from touring that some huge bands have taken, 12K is a drop in the bucket. If she enjoyed it, well, it was basically a very expensive holiday.
Her tax issue was the ticket resellers didn’t collect VAT (Value Added Tax), essentially sales tax at the point of sale. Mary said that was largely an oversight on her part, so she had to pay it out of her end. Expensive lesson, took a lot of guts for her to share it.
With a theoretically 20% higher ticket price, you also have to factor in even less people buying tickets. It's not as easy as to say she would've made that 20% more, if she didn't make that mistake.
@ maybe, maybe not. British consumers are used to the VAT tax, it’s hard to say if that would have substantially affected sales. In America, when you buy a ticket through StubHub, Ticketmaster, et al, it’s expected that taxes and convenience fees are going to be tacked onto the ticket price.
I think the real takeaway here is that she is not popular enough to go on tour. She doesn't have a big enough draw even after planning for a year and promoting her shows. She should start where she lives using backing tracks and building a following before going all over the UK. She should not be paying her manager unless he is booking gigs and doing all the work that it sounds like she did. And after losing $12,000 she is the last person who should give advice on how to go on tour.
The "manager" is her brother which she already have employed to help running her medias. She mentioned in an earlier video she has 2 fulltime employees and a part-time for the bookkeeping. She basically doing so well as an RUclipsr she can afford these kind of losses. I guess the album and the tour was highly an vanity project. She originally wanted to become an known artist, but ended as an succesful youtuber.
I have known players from platinum selling bands (i.e., net worth in the several millions with connections to the best promoters, agents, managers) go out on their own and tour on an album with radio and MTV play (back when those were things) and come out in the hole 5-figures on the first tour. Touring as a headliner is expensive.
Johnny Rawles who is the cousin of R&B artist Lou Rawles would tour smaller clubs throughout the Midwest. The smallish blues club he played at in S. Ohio along the Ohio River is an example of where he played. To save money on tour he gets local musicians to back him. A drummer buddy of mine asked me to fill in on bass because the other bass player was sick with the flu. We played a geographic area of about 500 sq miles. Beyond that area he had other musicians. There were three core people and the rest were pick-up bands. I made about $150 per gig is all and I heard he was getting $1500 - $2000 per show.
Even local scenes are seeing this. There’s bands with 100k monthly listeners and they can’t put 25 people in a room. Monthly listeners and fans are too different things. I’m glad the industry is starting to see that.
Great take on the whole process. It's a heck of a learning experience. Hope people don't get too discouraged by everything and think of creative ways to make it work. I love the idea of going to campsites and hanging. That's brilliant! 2 birds one stone IMO.
Traveling costs skyrocketed in America in the 1980s. It's really difficult to do any live stuff. Internet distribution has to be the more efficient path. Mary is doing that pretty well.
Depends. When I was touring with tribute bands, living in a tiny bus for months and hauling gear around and setting up/breaking down sucked. Touring for international pop acts and making 5-figs per week with comfortable traveling accommodations and not having to haul or setup/breakdown any gear (and thus having time to explore cities/countries we're in) doesn't bother me, but some musicians still go stir crazy on the road. It's not for everyone.
Todd Rundgren had interesting observation, about Meat Loaf. “If you’re willing to to go out there and shamelessly flog your product, every night and repeatedly hitting the same markets, you will invariably build an audience, if you have anything of interest.” I think that applies here.
She talked about hiring the venues, and the cost involved. We don’t go on tour until we get the venues to hire us, if she has almost a million RUclips subs she should be able to sell her show to presenters….
I respect her for looking after her musicians so well and I guess it feels more like a real band, traveling together but she could've got session players to travel to every show themselves for £100 and £25 fuel costs a gig . She spent a lot on last minute advertising too. I guess she got a good video out of it though, so hopefully it makes her a few quid.
She also got a new course out of it, that she tries to sell at the end of the video - The independent musicians guide to touring. A cynic would say it's almost like she set herself up to fail?🤔
Biggest stumbling block seemed to be ticket sales. She said she sold 63% of tickets. Had she sold 100%, and not made the VAT / pricing mistake she'd probably have broken even or even made some money. Which does emphasise the IRL / online presence dichotomy. The following she has I'd have thought she'd easily sell tickets, again depending on how that following breaks down for UK based followers. Was it poor venue choice? Bad nights to play the gigs? Who knows. I do know the gigs she did I could have got to I couldn't get time off work to go to, and couldn't make the travel time if i didnt. Things are just very expensive here. Hotels, even budget ones arent cheap. Fuel for the van is ridiculous. The wages for the musicians wasn't a lot for 13 days plus rehearsal days. Barely over minimum wage really. Ticket sales and venues seem to have been what caused the shortfall really.
Her biggest stumbling block was looking after the musicians she used too well, instead of paying them £100 per gig and telling them to find their own transport/accommodation/food. She's too nice for her own good.
@alfsmith4936 Eh, if that's the offer you're going to make, you might as well just do a solo tour. Offering less than minimum wage for an eight hour day plus expenses for the services of a professional is just insulting.
@alfsmith4936 That's insulting indeed. What professional musician in their right mind would accept such a low ball offer? £100 does not pay for their transport/accomodation/food on a tour. So you're really asking professional musicians to come play with you for two weeks for free?
Online presence doesn't mean anything. Remember 'Snakes on a Plane'? That's the lesson content creators need to understand. Online hype takes zero effort so it's actual value is zero.
I'm guessing her Company, Mary Spender LTD, lost £12,000, and not her personal bank account. There's no way you would risk your own savings on such a risky endeavour. For such a 'savvy' business woman, who spent a year planning this tour, she didn't do a very good job. Venues with no PA, having to rent back-up instruments, flying in a bass player from another country, giving her band £30 a day each for food on top of their wages??? The list goes on and on.
Yeah, I understand that it would seem incongruent with expectations that someone with millions of RUclips views would only sell fewer than 2,000 tickets, but those RUclips views are free and don't require the viewer to extricate their behinds from their comfy chair. Furthermore, many people are grappling with inflation and uncertainty.
Not a fan of Mary's, i got tired of her stuff and didn't watch her video but i enjoyed your video and your great advice. There are a few musicians I love who are big in certain areas or certain circles and are well known on YT but when they come to the small western Canadian city i live in, they play very small venues and most people I talk with have no idea who they are. Running a successful business is hard, doing it in an artistic field is even harder. I think it's spot on that there's a huge difference between internet musicians and IRL musicians and it's just the reality that no matter how many followers you have online, they don't carry over and you really have to start over and build up your IRL audience.
Hi Mike a great share , I ve just watched Mary story / video , and I put this reply , to show being a creative artist, has never been easy ! I remeber seeing a interview with Roger Daltrey (THE WHO ) on you tube , saying the band where called into see their accountant in the early 1970s , when they had completed 2 tours of the USA (including WOODSTOCK ) and being told the band had grossed 500,000 dollars , but the downside was their outgoings was 850,000 dollars , to which the accountant said Welll what are you going to do about it ??????????????. keith moon reply was to strip naked and gave the accountant ,all his cloths and said thats everything I ve got ! and walked out of the office totaly naked !!!. he then returned 10 minutes later (still naked ) and asked can anybody lend me £5 , to get home , as all the taxi drivers refused to take him as he had NO MONEY on him ! yes its a wonderful life going on the road ! I have a friend from the old days , who was in a band called SIMON DUPREE and the big sound !and they had a number 1 hit with a song called KITES ,their pianist got a injured hand , and they needed to get someone in for a month , a guy turned up called Reg Dwight to stand in for a tour , and he got payed his share , which turned out to be, £30 a week , luckily a few years later he changed his name to ELTON JOHN ! thanks Mike for highlighting her story , its a lesson for us all ! seasons greeting and sharring the dream of , love and a peaceful world for ALL ! ritchie .
Mary’s vids have shown us all what most of us have known for a long time. Touring is completely f*cked unless you’re one of the world’s biggest artists. It’s a good job we all have the completely fair and above board industry of streaming to earn our royalties from eh…
Part of the problem is media today is so fractured. There isn't a centralized source which everyone turns to for information about, in this case, bands. It used to be a few magazines, three main news sources, etc, sort of played as gatekeepers. Whether you think this is good or bad can be much more complicated than any one of our opinions. Imagine bands from forty years ago trying to make it in the world of the internet and all its divisions and opinions. That and taxes. As a foreigner to the UK and Europe in general, please explain what value the VAT (value added tax), adds? What is it supposed to be for?
People are always the biggest cost in business. Music is no different. Period. Fees, food, hotel all add up. She should have used backing tracks for the bassist and the second guitarist.
I admire Mary Spender. She's real talented and her RUclips videos are excellent but I gotta be honest her original material isn't that good. I think she'd do better with outside songwriters.
I've listened to her songs & they are average open mike singer song fodder that you can hear on a regular basis around the UK. Would I pay to see her. Nah. There are a lot more entertaining performers at open mikes with original material for free.
@69spook I mean she's good. She sings well and is a decent guitar player. Her cover of Miley Cyrus "Flowers" is better than the original IMO but she can't seem to write a hook.
I agree with all the points made here. But I also think economy and inflation are a huge factor to consider in all of this. Cost of EVERYTHING- has skyrocketed everywhere. All the result of covid shutdowns and bad gov't legislation.
It is interesting that she’s put together a course on it, yet isn’t really successful at it yet. …and I’m sure she has a lot more going for her than my band would.
Yes it is. I was aware it changes from state to state. I believe that the sales tax rate (VAT) is the same (20%) in the European Union. It makes many things such as Apple products much more expensive unfortunately! 😊
@@ShiningHourPopthanks! I also forgot that we have local, state and federal taxes in USA which sucks around tax season to figure out. I wish there was a free spreadsheet to download to have all this stuff in to help. I think it would help everyone a lot. Plus a way to find reliable pro musicians. The area I’m in has poor quality musicians who want too much money and almost no venues but to hire the few pro musicians in the area can be unreasonable high and unreliable if they choose to go with a higher paying more public figure for exposure.
@@ShiningHourPop VAT in the EU is 17-27%, depending on the country. In some countries certain types of goods like food, pharmaceuticals, hotels, restaurants or newspapers are lower, again depending on country.
I hope she finds your vid, I love Mary, I think she is awesome but her music recordings are bad bro, but the video improvs are really good, she is awesome, and your take on it is really grounded, thanks, I will just keep my music to myself then, jajajajajja
She’s not the only one that lost money going on tour, most band’s & songwriters lose money nowadays. If somebody new in a band tells you how much money they made on their first go round, they’re lying their asses off. Even a lot of the bigger bands you see at events are probably still living in their parent’s basement. Unless you have record company backing, don’t waste your time & money planning a tour
@@davehall8584 No it isn't. £150 a day, plus £30 a day expenses, plus free accommodation, plus free food/drink from the rider is good money. She looked after her musicians when she couldn't really afford to.
@alfsmith4936 I mean..it's not a lot of money for a gifted musician....but yes....Mary gave them as much as she could possibly dare to pay..more than she could afford...bless her.
minimum wage is £11.44 an hour. So it depends how many of those daily hours are considered 'working'. You pay them for the hours playing the gig, that's the service you hire them for, the rest is on them. They need to remember that they are only playing small venues too, even if in their heads they have delusions of being 'session cats' or 'touring rockstars'. Interesting that the bassist also had enough money to buy a £10k new bass whilst on tour....
Very strange, every business comes whit an risk. What is the diffrence from an artist from any other self employed small busniss owner? "Oh no I lost money on my business" I gotta make an youtube video of it"
There is more than just a van, you need to find campgrounds and bring a nice bed roll or inflatable mattress. You can get an RV space for $50 for the bus and sleep the rest in the tents. he says it around 10:00 as I was writing this.
I’d say her online presence is her draw more than her music. I like her videos but am not keen to her music. I probably would not go see her but will watch every video she makes. They represent two different sides to her.
I think it also depends on what the economy is like too especially if your a small fry musician , I mean Kier Starmer is probably not helping the economy at this very moment. Best of luck to Mary .
Reminds me of left-handed guitarist...always whining about not enough inventory. They whined to Paul R Smith about making a PRS SilverSky SE's for lefties...he originally said no way...lefties don't buy guitars. Two years later PRS gives in...big announcement...and soon/recently....SS SE lefties come out in lots of great colors. ...WOW!! Then, within a month or so....huge discounts on lefty SS SE lefties (no such pattern with righty SE's). Lefties talk smack online...but when it comes to 'showing up' and buying what they clammer for.....crickets. I hate lefties. Oh, I'm a lefty....LOOOOVE my lefty PRS SS SE ...got on sale, great deal, free PLEK.
If your popularity is based on people watching you at home from their bed or couch for free this might not translate to people traveling 20 miles and paying to see you live.
I’ve seen a few of her videos and I didn’t even know she had a band! No joke I’m not being mean but I think she should consider mentioning her band and playing a little clip of something she’s trying to push before her videos start.
@ that’s confusing. So she’s trying to promote herself with the use of a hired band. Makes no sense. Good thing she’s selling a course on how to be successful in this business after coming off a huge loss because everyone knows fake courses pay the bills.
An atlas and a coffee cup Five pickers in an old Dodge truck Heading out to Houston for a show on Saturday night. Alan Jackson-Chasing That Neon Rainbow.
I have a lot to say about this but can't get into most of it as I don't want to come across as nasty and have her simps attack. But it's a UK tour - The UK is so small you can drive to each gig and drive home almost every night. She would not survive in Australia or USA where bands do 8-10 hours drive between shows and pack up to drive another 8-10 hours. Sleep is in the car at truck stops. Her losses are 100% self inflicted due to wanting luxury and not doing the hard yards. If you can't handle the travel and need motels every night in a place as small as England - You are just not cut out for the road.
Yeah the hotels every night is over the top for such a small act who is just starting to tour. I could understand getting one for select nights but not every single night
Must admit, I instantly thought of the David Brent : life on the road film - Where he rents an entire tour bus to drive to gigs that are literelly an hour from his house! 🤣
don't know if you're British, but although the UK distances look small on a map, we don't have the interstate roads of the US. Everywhere takes longer to get to than you might think, due to smaller roads and high volume of traffic. It really isn't feasible to 'just drive home' after a gig. Her closest gig was a 2 hour journey at least, with others being 4-5 hours. With fuel prices it's cheaper to stay somewhere and travel on than to drive home, try to get 8hrs sleep and then do an 8 hour journey instead of the 2 hours it would have teaen from the last venue. Not to mention how tired you would be arriving to a gig.
She does not have broad musical appeal. This translates into low ticket sales even in small venues.Then at the end of her video, she promotes a course in how to be a successful musician. Ironic?
I really like Mary Spender but she should be touring for her fans and for the fun of it all. She is a major RUclips artist noticed and respected by people like Rick Beato. Everything she does is marketing related even the "I have made a loss" video. She knows exactly what she is doing.
@@sndrb1336 Thanks for your reply but I have no clue what you are trying to say apart from No! Many touring bands that are big youtube stars use touring as a marketing tool. They create Vlogs and make more money from the RUclips content than from the Tour. Old school touring had to make a profit. Not quite the same nowadays.
But did she lose money on the tour, I would say no and the reason is she made 11 videos using the tour as content and achieved 744k of viewers in total for those videos. I would content she should be adding in the ad revenue achieved from those videos as tour income.
I like Mary so I don't mean this as an insult... but she's RUclips famous for talking, not for her songs. Kind of like how Joe Rogan is the biggest podcaster on the planet but he's not performing his comedy in stadiums. He plays small theaters. He's a podcaster who also does comedy. Bill Burr is a comedian who also does a podcast. That said, I DO like her playing and I think her videos are great.
You have to be at a certain level to be able to tour, otherwise you should stay a local band. Unless you have GREAT promise to attract investors because they know at some point you will be filling stadiums. 06:00 he calls it an investment tour and this would be correct, you're going to lose money on it, but you are creating a following to build off of who will come see you next tour and probably bring a friend.
I agree. Even thinking that your very first tour will be profitable is unrealistic. She should've done 2-3 one off shows somewhere to gauge turnout and then play a support slot.
As good as she is and much respect but her music isn’t exactly inspiring or radio friendly so she’s not going to get where she wants to. It’s sad. This isn’t the 80s, you can’t make a living off mediocre music. Not being a Richard cause I really like her but I’m a musician too and I know how tough it is. I’m a rock/grunge guy in a world of Taylor swift fans
$10,000 for a 13 day tour including 8 shows, divided amongst three musicians… that’s approximately $320 per show day and $150 per travel day… you seem to think she paid her musicians excessively… sorry, I have to disagree.
for the size of the tour she was doing, she did. This wasn't Quincy Jones calling them up and they weren't playing arenas. They were bottom tier guys (not necessarily in ability, but in status) playing a bottom tier tour. they were paid about right
You made an awesome point, social media fans do not necessarily equate to fans that will come and watch you in person.
I agree. I like her channel to hear her POV and get info but I don’t like her kind of music 🤷
I want to expand on some of the comments here about online presence and IRL draw being two different things (I agree 100%). I'm a big fan of Mary's RUclips channel and deeply appreciate her openness about so many music and music-related topics. BUT....while she is a definitely skilled musician, I don't much care for the music she creates and would likely pass on an opportunity to see her play live. I have no idea what percent of her fan base might feel the same way, but when I watched her postmortem video and learned that she sold ~60% of available tickets, I wondered if she overestimated the % of her channel fans that would be likely to come to her shows. I can imagine that is really difficult to suss out until you've actually taken the leap and done it. So good on you, Mary, and thanks for sharing. And thanks, Mike, for your perspectives as well.
I'm with you all the way. As far as looking at this with onstage and on video, at least she's not a looper up onstage all by herself. I've done a lot of gigs where the band supported a front-man who couldn't keep it going himself, so it's nice she had a back-up band to fall back on.
This is awesome. Thanks for the inside look! Merry Christmas!
This is the difference between being popular on social media vs being popular on stage. Social media rewards quantity over quality whereas musical performances reward the opposite.
This video contains more useful info than a lot of websites and articles out there regarding touring. Great stuff Mike!
And now she wants me to buy a course that will teach me how to properly do a tour. A new definition. Chutzpah!
Bottom line-your songs are either strong enough or they ain’t.
Mary Spender is wonderful.....very interesting to hear your take....
Yeah I enjoy her content.
bro, that was an amazing road worthy analysis of what she did, i'm a geezer, 54, in 2023, crushed out 5 months in western canada, 5 provinces and 50 shows, booked it myself, all done with pick up bands and no merch, but in the prairies of canada we had a blast, packing 100 - 250 rooms, based on our name, horse funeral band, we always made money in the prairies of canada, despite long distance traveling, but i know how to tour, there's always a band house to crash in at a university and i always sleep in the tub, lol, no crabs or bedbugs, but we were always depressed coming back to british columbia because it is so expensive to tour here, gas ,food, and it's mountainous as fuck, so you burn through more fuel than the prairies, british columbia cost of living is also so brutal that the people can only afford one show a month and it's gotta be a banger, so new bands have to fight against that. it's a fucked up situation.
Great breakdown, very informative without belittling her in any way. Mary's fans will love the respect you show her and her efforts. I SUB'd and then went to look at The Rumjacks. I was laughing when I realized I had just watched your "viral video" 2 days ago! (SUB'd there also). Then I watched your "An Irish Goodbye on St. Valentines Day" and was even more impressed. Hope to attend one of your shows someday!
Thank you so much!!
Thanks for this post. It tagged on to Mary's your video or I would not have see. It is a great support and helpful post. While I have no intention of touring (way too old and unskilled for that). It was informative. Thanks again.
I was on the road in the early 80's and we used a booking agent and they did a decent job but routing was not always the best. We always stayed 3 to a room. We got paid by the week and there was no extra money for food. We survived by living on one or two meals a day and living cheaply at home. I did it for three years and I managed to come out on the other side with out being broke. But there was little money to be made. But the band got really tight and eventually got within a hair of being signed with a major label after they put the band up in New York for a week and cut a demo in their studio with their engineers and producers. I have heard of many bands going broke going on tour and doing an album because of all of the cost involved. Still, I made many friends while on the road and am still close with them today. For that I am thankful.
I watched Mary Spender break down the cost of the tour and I think a lot of the issue is that over half of her RUclips fanbase live in the U.S.. Opposite your situation she would probably do better here.
When you have an organic band, you don't pay musicians - you're all in it together.
What??? Do you not believe you should pay your friends? If you were in a band and nobody else is getting paid, I really hope you don't expect a check either 😂
It's not easy to get an organic band, luck plays a huge role.
Have you been playing in a band?
It's such a pain in the ass sometimes...
@@brentradshaw5057 "Bands" share the expenses. They don't pay each other. Simple concept.
@@LegsON First it requires you making music people actually want to hear. Then it might require you opening for a more popular band. I discovered two really great bands/artists in the past few years when they opened for the acts I paid to see. Cherry Glazerr opened for Slowdive (90s shoegaze band) and I was forever a fan. She was headlining her tours right after that. Also saw a band call Prism Bitch open for Built to Spill. .They're slowly getting some attention - but doing their own tours now. While both bands have a youtube presence, they're not trying to get music fans by "talking" on youtube. People have this ridiculous idea you can build fanbases on youtube by doing other things than playing your music. I myself was in the 1980s LA punk scene, toured the country, put out independent albums and still get small royalties. It was called the DIY movement. But it was a "scene" with a following and you had to earn people's attention by playing live - a lot. And traveling and sleeping in vans. Eating food from grocery stores, not restaurants. People who actually attend shows and concerts find out about new acts at shows and concerts - or independent radio (almost gone today, but LA has it).
Her video was a good breakdown of the reality of touring. And probably a lot of lessons learned, which she was kind enough to explain to her audience. And she got a lot of advice in the comments from old hands. If you look at the losses from touring that some huge bands have taken, 12K is a drop in the bucket. If she enjoyed it, well, it was basically a very expensive holiday.
Her tax issue was the ticket resellers didn’t collect VAT (Value Added Tax), essentially sales tax at the point of sale. Mary said that was largely an oversight on her part, so she had to pay it out of her end. Expensive lesson, took a lot of guts for her to share it.
But even if she hadn't made that mistake, it would only be a 20 percent margin. That's not a lot of wiggle room.
With a theoretically 20% higher ticket price, you also have to factor in even less people buying tickets.
It's not as easy as to say she would've made that 20% more, if she didn't make that mistake.
@ maybe, maybe not. British consumers are used to the VAT tax, it’s hard to say if that would have substantially affected sales. In America, when you buy a ticket through StubHub, Ticketmaster, et al, it’s expected that taxes and convenience fees are going to be tacked onto the ticket price.
Great vid!! Thanks. Love Mary...amazing multi-talent and person. One of a kind.
Props to any act out there touring, it's tough. I have money now and always buy merch to help bands out I like.
We are literally just raveling tshirt salesmen 😂
You’re the best.
I think the real takeaway here is that she is not popular enough to go on tour. She doesn't have a big enough draw even after planning for a year and promoting her shows. She should start where she lives using backing tracks and building a following before going all over the UK. She should not be paying her manager unless he is booking gigs and doing all the work that it sounds like she did. And after losing $12,000 she is the last person who should give advice on how to go on tour.
Wasn't she a local performer already?!
Yeah the sales pitch for a course at the end was something else altogether
@@LegsON that's what she use to do before the YT channel showed potential to gain popularity.
The "manager" is her brother which she already have employed to help running her medias. She mentioned in an earlier video she has 2 fulltime employees and a part-time for the bookkeeping. She basically doing so well as an RUclipsr she can afford these kind of losses. I guess the album and the tour was highly an vanity project. She originally wanted to become an known artist, but ended as an succesful youtuber.
I have known players from platinum selling bands (i.e., net worth in the several millions with connections to the best promoters, agents, managers) go out on their own and tour on an album with radio and MTV play (back when those were things) and come out in the hole 5-figures on the first tour. Touring as a headliner is expensive.
Johnny Rawles who is the cousin of R&B artist Lou Rawles would tour smaller clubs throughout the Midwest. The smallish blues club he played at in S. Ohio along the Ohio River is an example of where he played. To save money on tour he gets local musicians to back him. A drummer buddy of mine asked me to fill in on bass because the other bass player was sick with the flu. We played a geographic area of about 500 sq miles. Beyond that area he had other musicians. There were three core people and the rest were pick-up bands. I made about $150 per gig is all and I heard he was getting $1500 - $2000 per show.
Even local scenes are seeing this. There’s bands with 100k monthly listeners and they can’t put 25 people in a room. Monthly listeners and fans are too different things. I’m glad the industry is starting to see that.
how do you keep your room so clean
Mary did support tours before this one.
I think the "Tour Course" is a lessons learned thing.
Great take on the whole process. It's a heck of a learning experience. Hope people don't get too discouraged by everything and think of creative ways to make it work. I love the idea of going to campsites and hanging. That's brilliant! 2 birds one stone IMO.
Traveling costs skyrocketed in America in the 1980s. It's really difficult to do any live stuff. Internet distribution has to be the more efficient path. Mary is doing that pretty well.
As a lifetime musician, I can say that touring is the dumbest lifestyle anyone could ever want.
Depends. When I was touring with tribute bands, living in a tiny bus for months and hauling gear around and setting up/breaking down sucked. Touring for international pop acts and making 5-figs per week with comfortable traveling accommodations and not having to haul or setup/breakdown any gear (and thus having time to explore cities/countries we're in) doesn't bother me, but some musicians still go stir crazy on the road. It's not for everyone.
Great content! I am one of Mary's followers. That's how you came up on my feed.
Todd Rundgren had interesting observation, about Meat Loaf. “If you’re willing to to go out there and shamelessly flog your product, every night and repeatedly hitting the same markets, you will invariably build an audience, if you have anything of interest.” I think that applies here.
She talked about hiring the venues, and the cost involved.
We don’t go on tour until we get the venues to hire us, if she has almost a million RUclips subs she should be able to sell her show to presenters….
I respect her for looking after her musicians so well and I guess it feels more like a real band, traveling together but she could've got session players to travel to every show themselves for £100 and £25 fuel costs a gig . She spent a lot on last minute advertising too. I guess she got a good video out of it though, so hopefully it makes her a few quid.
She also got a new course out of it, that she tries to sell at the end of the video - The independent musicians guide to touring. A cynic would say it's almost like she set herself up to fail?🤔
Biggest stumbling block seemed to be ticket sales. She said she sold 63% of tickets. Had she sold 100%, and not made the VAT / pricing mistake she'd probably have broken even or even made some money. Which does emphasise the IRL / online presence dichotomy. The following she has I'd have thought she'd easily sell tickets, again depending on how that following breaks down for UK based followers. Was it poor venue choice? Bad nights to play the gigs? Who knows. I do know the gigs she did I could have got to I couldn't get time off work to go to, and couldn't make the travel time if i didnt.
Things are just very expensive here. Hotels, even budget ones arent cheap. Fuel for the van is ridiculous. The wages for the musicians wasn't a lot for 13 days plus rehearsal days. Barely over minimum wage really.
Ticket sales and venues seem to have been what caused the shortfall really.
Her biggest stumbling block was looking after the musicians she used too well, instead of paying them £100 per gig and telling them to find their own transport/accommodation/food. She's too nice for her own good.
@alfsmith4936 Nobody worth hiring would accept that deal.
@alfsmith4936 Eh, if that's the offer you're going to make, you might as well just do a solo tour. Offering less than minimum wage for an eight hour day plus expenses for the services of a professional is just insulting.
@alfsmith4936 That's insulting indeed.
What professional musician in their right mind would accept such a low ball offer?
£100 does not pay for their transport/accomodation/food on a tour.
So you're really asking professional musicians to come play with you for two weeks for free?
Online presence doesn't mean anything. Remember 'Snakes on a Plane'? That's the lesson content creators need to understand. Online hype takes zero effort so it's actual value is zero.
Oh my god, what an amazing use of Snakes on a Plane hahaha
I mean my band fills venues but we’re having such a hard time building online hype haha.
Manchester is one of the major cities in teh UK, it was mad to not include it. Punters won't travel more than an hour or so for a gig of this size.
I love Mary she seems like such a nice person. That sucks that she lost money considering how popular she is on YT.
I'm guessing her Company, Mary Spender LTD, lost £12,000, and not her personal bank account. There's no way you would risk your own savings on such a risky endeavour.
For such a 'savvy' business woman, who spent a year planning this tour, she didn't do a very good job. Venues with no PA, having to rent back-up instruments, flying in a bass player from another country, giving her band £30 a day each for food on top of their wages??? The list goes on and on.
Of course, but there's not much of a difference, when she owns 100% of that.
She’s touring like a rockstar and not like any other band in the uk doing 150 people venues.
Nice to pretend.....🙂
Yeah, I understand that it would seem incongruent with expectations that someone with millions of RUclips views would only sell fewer than 2,000 tickets, but those RUclips views are free and don't require the viewer to extricate their behinds from their comfy chair. Furthermore, many people are grappling with inflation and uncertainty.
Black Keys toured for years,, sleeping in a van, moved their own equipment and they did this for years before becoming successful.
Bands like Sirsy play lots of gigs, small clubs and bars, but they seem to make it on donations too. Great band. ❤
I love watching her YT videos. . . Just not a fan of her music.
Having said that. I hope she keeps at it and.makes a profit next tour.
Great video. Yes…if you can find a reliable and knowledgeable booking agent, it’s worth the cut.
Not a fan of Mary's, i got tired of her stuff and didn't watch her video but i enjoyed your video and your great advice. There are a few musicians I love who are big in certain areas or certain circles and are well known on YT but when they come to the small western Canadian city i live in, they play very small venues and most people I talk with have no idea who they are. Running a successful business is hard, doing it in an artistic field is even harder. I think it's spot on that there's a huge difference between internet musicians and IRL musicians and it's just the reality that no matter how many followers you have online, they don't carry over and you really have to start over and build up your IRL audience.
How much will she make from her "How Much Money I Lost On Tour" video? That's part of the tour income.
And the course she is selling on what she learned touring.
The music she plays is so generic, i wonder why would anyone pay money to hear it live. I mean maybe some of her youtube subs.
Exactly....
Hi Mike a great share , I ve just watched Mary story / video , and I put this reply , to show being a creative artist, has never been easy !
I remeber seeing a interview with Roger Daltrey (THE WHO ) on you tube , saying the band where called into see their accountant in the early 1970s , when they had completed 2 tours of the USA (including WOODSTOCK ) and being told the band had grossed 500,000 dollars , but the downside was their outgoings was 850,000 dollars , to which the accountant said Welll what are you going to do about it ??????????????.
keith moon reply was to strip naked and gave the accountant ,all his cloths and said thats everything I ve got ! and walked out of the office totaly naked !!!.
he then returned 10 minutes later (still naked ) and asked can anybody lend me £5 , to get home , as all the taxi drivers refused to take him as he had NO MONEY on him !
yes its a wonderful life going on the road ! I have a friend from the old days , who was in a band called SIMON DUPREE and the big sound !and they had a number 1 hit with a song called KITES ,their pianist got a injured hand , and they needed to get someone in for a month , a guy turned up called Reg Dwight to stand in for a tour , and he got payed his share , which turned out to be, £30 a week , luckily a few years later he changed his name to ELTON JOHN !
thanks Mike for highlighting her story , its a lesson for us all !
seasons greeting and sharring the dream of , love and a peaceful world for ALL !
ritchie .
Mary’s vids have shown us all what most of us have known for a long time. Touring is completely f*cked unless you’re one of the world’s biggest artists.
It’s a good job we all have the completely fair and above board industry of streaming to earn our royalties from eh…
😂😂😂
Part of the problem is media today is so fractured. There isn't a centralized source which everyone turns to for information about, in this case, bands. It used to be a few magazines, three main news sources, etc, sort of played as gatekeepers. Whether you think this is good or bad can be much more complicated than any one of our opinions. Imagine bands from forty years ago trying to make it in the world of the internet and all its divisions and opinions.
That and taxes. As a foreigner to the UK and Europe in general, please explain what value the VAT (value added tax), adds? What is it supposed to be for?
People are always the biggest cost in business. Music is no different. Period. Fees, food, hotel all add up. She should have used backing tracks for the bassist and the second guitarist.
She’s awesome
I admire Mary Spender. She's real talented and her RUclips videos are excellent but I gotta be honest her original material isn't that good. I think she'd do better with outside songwriters.
I've listened to her songs & they are average open mike singer song fodder that you can hear on a regular basis around the UK. Would I pay to see her. Nah.
There are a lot more entertaining performers at open mikes with original material for free.
@69spook I mean she's good. She sings well and is a decent guitar player. Her cover of Miley Cyrus "Flowers" is better than the original IMO but she can't seem to write a hook.
I agree with all the points made here. But I also think economy and inflation are a huge factor to consider in all of this. Cost of EVERYTHING- has skyrocketed everywhere. All the result of covid shutdowns and bad gov't legislation.
She's such a crybaby.
Got a nice way about you, subbed, seasons greetings.
It is interesting that she’s put together a course on it, yet isn’t really successful at it yet. …and I’m sure she has a lot more going for her than my band would.
The tax in the UK is called VAT (value added tax) which is 20%. It is the equivalent of Sales Tax in the USA.
Is it the same across the UK? In USA sales tax varies from state to state. One is 7.9% while another is around 20%.
Yes it is. I was aware it changes from state to state. I believe that the sales tax rate (VAT) is the same (20%) in the European Union. It makes many things such as Apple products much more expensive unfortunately! 😊
@@ShiningHourPopthanks! I also forgot that we have local, state and federal taxes in USA which sucks around tax season to figure out. I wish there was a free spreadsheet to download to have all this stuff in to help. I think it would help everyone a lot. Plus a way to find reliable pro musicians. The area I’m in has poor quality musicians who want too much money and almost no venues but to hire the few pro musicians in the area can be unreasonable high and unreliable if they choose to go with a higher paying more public figure for exposure.
@@ShiningHourPop VAT in the EU is 17-27%, depending on the country.
In some countries certain types of goods like food, pharmaceuticals, hotels, restaurants or newspapers are lower, again depending on country.
@@josuastangl7140 thanks. I didn’t know that.
I could have told her she would lose money - she is not popular enough in truth. But she also made mistakes.
2000 for two weeks (24h a day) is “a lot of money” for a professional? That’s the rate of a check-out girl at Walmart.
I hope she finds your vid, I love Mary, I think she is awesome but her music recordings are bad bro, but the video improvs are really good, she is awesome, and your take on it is really grounded, thanks, I will just keep my music to myself then, jajajajajja
She’s not the only one that lost money going on tour, most band’s & songwriters lose money nowadays. If somebody new in a band tells you how much money they made on their first go round, they’re lying their asses off. Even a lot of the bigger bands you see at events are probably still living in their parent’s basement. Unless you have record company backing, don’t waste your time & money planning a tour
paid too much? 17 days with her (incl 13 on road + 4 days rehearsals) 7997 /3 musicians /17 = £156 (14hr spent with her) day !
that's prob less than minimum wage?
@@davehall8584 No it isn't. £150 a day, plus £30 a day expenses, plus free accommodation, plus free food/drink from the rider is good money. She looked after her musicians when she couldn't really afford to.
@alfsmith4936 I mean..it's not a lot of money for a gifted musician....but yes....Mary gave them as much as she could possibly dare to pay..more than she could afford...bless her.
minimum wage is £11.44 an hour. So it depends how many of those daily hours are considered 'working'. You pay them for the hours playing the gig, that's the service you hire them for, the rest is on them. They need to remember that they are only playing small venues too, even if in their heads they have delusions of being 'session cats' or 'touring rockstars'. Interesting that the bassist also had enough money to buy a £10k new bass whilst on tour....
I feel sorry for her. She didn't even break even
From experience touring in my 20'... Whe add the advantage of being able to sell CD's
Very strange, every business comes whit an risk. What is the diffrence from an artist from any other self employed small busniss owner? "Oh no I lost money on my business" I gotta make an youtube video of it"
There is more than just a van, you need to find campgrounds and bring a nice bed roll or inflatable mattress. You can get an RV space for $50 for the bus and sleep the rest in the tents. he says it around 10:00 as I was writing this.
tents? in cold, rainy British Autumn? I'd rather not go on tour
@@davidtomkins4242 i've slept in the van in 3' of snow and -2° F, but I had a space heater or I would have been miserable.
I’d say her online presence is her draw more than her music. I like her videos but am not keen to her music. I probably would not go see her but will watch every video she makes. They represent two different sides to her.
I think it also depends on what the economy is like too especially if your a small fry musician , I mean Kier Starmer is probably not helping the economy at this very moment.
Best of luck to Mary .
At the end of the day, not enough people showed up.
Reminds me of left-handed guitarist...always whining about not enough inventory. They whined to Paul R Smith about making a PRS SilverSky SE's for lefties...he originally said no way...lefties don't buy guitars. Two years later PRS gives in...big announcement...and soon/recently....SS SE lefties come out in lots of great colors. ...WOW!!
Then, within a month or so....huge discounts on lefty SS SE lefties (no such pattern with righty SE's). Lefties talk smack online...but when it comes to 'showing up' and buying what they clammer for.....crickets. I hate lefties. Oh, I'm a lefty....LOOOOVE my lefty PRS SS SE ...got on sale, great deal, free PLEK.
Good, gas, hotel
Forget about it!
If your popularity is based on people watching you at home from their bed or couch for free this might not translate to people traveling 20 miles and paying to see you live.
Great video, i have subscribed 👍
what's up with musicians and self-flagellation?
I’ve seen a few of her videos and I didn’t even know she had a band! No joke I’m not being mean but I think she should consider mentioning her band and playing a little clip of something she’s trying to push before her videos start.
she doesn't have a band, she just hired these guys in for the gigs
@ that’s confusing. So she’s trying to promote herself with the use of a hired band. Makes no sense. Good thing she’s selling a course on how to be successful in this business after coming off a huge loss because everyone knows fake courses pay the bills.
An atlas and a coffee cup
Five pickers in an old Dodge truck
Heading out to Houston for a show on Saturday night.
Alan Jackson-Chasing That Neon Rainbow.
I have a lot to say about this but can't get into most of it as I don't want to come across as nasty and have her simps attack.
But it's a UK tour - The UK is so small you can drive to each gig and drive home almost every night.
She would not survive in Australia or USA where bands do 8-10 hours drive between shows and pack up to drive another 8-10 hours. Sleep is in the car at truck stops.
Her losses are 100% self inflicted due to wanting luxury and not doing the hard yards.
If you can't handle the travel and need motels every night in a place as small as England - You are just not cut out for the road.
Yeah the hotels every night is over the top for such a small act who is just starting to tour. I could understand getting one for select nights but not every single night
Must admit, I instantly thought of the David Brent : life on the road film - Where he rents an entire tour bus to drive to gigs that are literelly an hour from his house! 🤣
@@Civilian2.0 As Brent said in the film: "I'm normally good with budgets..."
Mary's posh totty......😂
don't know if you're British, but although the UK distances look small on a map, we don't have the interstate roads of the US. Everywhere takes longer to get to than you might think, due to smaller roads and high volume of traffic. It really isn't feasible to 'just drive home' after a gig. Her closest gig was a 2 hour journey at least, with others being 4-5 hours. With fuel prices it's cheaper to stay somewhere and travel on than to drive home, try to get 8hrs sleep and then do an 8 hour journey instead of the 2 hours it would have teaen from the last venue. Not to mention how tired you would be arriving to a gig.
She does not have broad musical appeal. This translates into low ticket sales even in small venues.Then at the end of her video, she promotes a course in how to be a successful musician. Ironic?
Mary Spender actually spends
Loses 15K on a tour and she sells a course on how to do it... Only in the matrix
I really like Mary Spender but she should be touring for her fans and for the fun of it all. She is a major RUclips artist noticed and respected by people like Rick Beato. Everything she does is marketing related even the "I have made a loss" video. She knows exactly what she is doing.
no, no cigar. no soup. no sauce.
@@sndrb1336 Thanks for your reply but I have no clue what you are trying to say apart from No! Many touring bands that are big youtube stars use touring as a marketing tool. They create Vlogs and make more money from the RUclips content than from the Tour. Old school touring had to make a profit. Not quite the same nowadays.
But did she lose money on the tour, I would say no and the reason is she made 11 videos using the tour as content and achieved 744k of viewers in total for those videos. I would content she should be adding in the ad revenue achieved from those videos as tour income.
I like Mary so I don't mean this as an insult... but she's RUclips famous for talking, not for her songs. Kind of like how Joe Rogan is the biggest podcaster on the planet but he's not performing his comedy in stadiums. He plays small theaters. He's a podcaster who also does comedy. Bill Burr is a comedian who also does a podcast.
That said, I DO like her playing and I think her videos are great.
You have to be at a certain level to be able to tour, otherwise you should stay a local band. Unless you have GREAT promise to attract investors because they know at some point you will be filling stadiums. 06:00 he calls it an investment tour and this would be correct, you're going to lose money on it, but you are creating a following to build off of who will come see you next tour and probably bring a friend.
I agree. Even thinking that your very first tour will be profitable is unrealistic.
She should've done 2-3 one off shows somewhere to gauge turnout and then play a support slot.
...then it's not just a clever name!
You look a little bit like Mike Shinoda.
Come have some whiskey in kansas!
As good as she is and much respect but her music isn’t exactly inspiring or radio friendly so she’s not going to get where she wants to. It’s sad. This isn’t the 80s, you can’t make a living off mediocre music. Not being a Richard cause I really like her but I’m a musician too and I know how tough it is. I’m a rock/grunge guy in a world of Taylor swift fans
Could it be because they are youtubers and not focused on just music? I see Mary as a youtuber, not a musician.
I agree she is not popular enough to go on tour and have a profitable outcome.
Musicians are so bad at making money 😂
What?? You’re telling me that bringing a $1,000 instrument 100 miles for 100 dollars is bad math?!
Only fans !
👀
Spender is a fine example of an online act. No real zip or charisma to her as an entertainer
$10,000 for a 13 day tour including 8 shows, divided amongst three musicians… that’s approximately $320 per show day and $150 per travel day… you seem to think she paid her musicians excessively… sorry, I have to disagree.
for the size of the tour she was doing, she did. This wasn't Quincy Jones calling them up and they weren't playing arenas. They were bottom tier guys (not necessarily in ability, but in status) playing a bottom tier tour. they were paid about right
Spender is a fine example of an online act. No real zip or charisma to her as an entertainer