This $800 3D Printer Hits 100K+ in Acceleration Test
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- Опубликовано: 9 май 2023
- The V400 3D printer by Flsun makes big claims about its printing speed lets test it to its limits and see how fast it can really go.
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I bought two v400s two months ago and it's a different world. 4-5x faster and I have yet to get a print fail and the wifi interface is outstanding. Life is so much better away from Creality. Klipper and delta is the way to go.
Yes, creality is such a shitty company
That's an over exaggerated comment!
I am a part of the v400 community and no way you didn't get any print fail!
I have a v400 as well and you are totally lying
I have two of them as well and they are really great printers. Not the best default profiles but if you know what you're doing in a slicer they are amazing reliable machines.
@qozia1370 the only fails i have are when i push the printer beyond what it should be, fail to support propperly, or when i have a dirty build plate. All user errors. My last bad fail was because im trying to print a very slim amd tall print at max speeds when i should just slow it down and let it print propperly. Again user error.
Awesome presentation, you paced and explained your findings really well. Thanks!
Great test video, you're awesome buddy!
Assuming an accelerometer is available, testing resonance and checking the maximum recommended acceleration with MZ (the simplest algorithm) is a better way of checking the capabilities of the printer, which is not only made of motors (what you tested) but also of flexible/resonating components.
With your test, hypothetically, if they put bigger motors with higher amperage with the same mechanics you would get even higher acceleration values, but the resonances and flexion would be the same and the maximum usable acceleration identical (in principle).
I did mention this at the end. It's great for high quality external surfaces, but leaves performance on the table when aesthetics are not so important, like on the infill
If the goal is to discover the MAX speeds, accelerations, and flow rates that the stock machine is capable of, then why limit the nozzle to 250 C? Specs say that the machine is capable of 300 C. I would like to see the flow rate failure on the 0.4mm nozzle at max temp. Of course, nozzle geometry plays a significant role, as you alluded to with the CHT-style nozzles. Larger diameter nozzles can actually get poorer performance due to the reduced contact-area-to-volume ratio, depending on the viscosity curves of the material being printed.
Thanks for publishing these results. It is great to see a company's advertising actually understate their product's capabilities.
Unfortunately alot of the time they mean the materials used is capable of withstanding that temperature
I love this kind of analysis. The thing that is missing is a real part with your best suggested settings and comparing to Bambu. A slight bit of clickbait to be honest since the title is misleading.
I could have just made this exact video. I have a FLSUN Super Racer and use all these methods in my mod ding and testing. I will say though that I have some funky retraction settings with the CHT volcano nozzles.
Funky you say? I've been wondering about getting a CHT for a V400 and would love to hear what you've noticed.
Such as?
With some PLA+ the settings are 3mm at 6mm/s detract at 10mm/s
@@ManjaroBlack Why would you ever set retraction so slow...?
Great video. Fine grain accel testing is centered on the bed, where it is optimal for deltas. If the test area is off-center, the accel will need to be much higher for the furthest tower.
Interesting results for flow rate. 247 printing did also a flow rate test on a voron with a revo, bambu x1c and the v400. His values significantly differed from your results with somewhere over 30mm3/s with pla at 220 degrees (cant say the exact numbers sadly).
Not sure about the performance increase with a cht as the v400 has something similar to a bozzle nozzle, basically a cross shaped hole instead of the round one.
Anyway, the v400 is underestimated in terms of speed. With the stock slicer settings it will beat a x1c at highly detailed prints as it has 10mm/s sqv instead of 5
I think the understimation comes from having a lower advertised number (v400 has 400 and X1C has 500) aside from needing some tuning , but like you said , many test has show that the speed is actually higher on the v400 , and that is with stock settings and not specific modified ones
@@ulforcemegamon3094I guess that's why they have nixed the stealtchopmode with the v1.4 update and are now advertising 600mms
maybe you could make detailed video of how to change values in macros? thanks great video!
It seems like when printing at high speed I need to throw "conventional wisdom" out the window. With PETG, for example, I increase temps to 260C-280C and use lots of fan. I wonder if a similar approach would help those upper layers on your test prints come out better.
Conventional "wisdom" is just flat out wrong and designed around selling materials that need high nozzle temperature to customers with PTFE lined hotends.
I don't see many people talking about petg fast, but i have concluded the same.
The plastic doesn’t spend as much time in the nozzle at those rates, so doesn’t actually get up to the temp of the nozzle. I think you have to overheat the nozzle to get the plastic to the standard print temps.
@@timothymusson5040 That's partly true, especially if you don't have a long melt zone (hf, volcano, etc.). But you also need a hotter surface temperature on the plastic exiting the nozzle in order for it to re-melt and bond to the previous layer, unless you're just going to rely on the previous layer still being hot from lack of cooling. Unless you use a hested chamber, that's a really flaky assumption - it means you prints will have weak spots or fail dependent on random air flow, time spent on each layer, pauses for filament change, etc. Making sure your nozzle temp is high enough to get reliable bonding *even with heavy cooling* is a much more reliable approach, and makes it do overhangs and bridging actually work.
In terms of price you should compare it to the P1P.
I like your engineering approach to testing the printers performance. I've seen that in other comparison tests it's been suggested that the VLSUN whilst fast loses detail compared to its competitors when running at the same speed. Did you find this?
This. Testing default profiles doesn't tell you anything you couldn't find out not even having a printer and just letting klipper_estimator do the math for you. To evaluate the actual differences you have to test to the point of failure and determine why it fails, what the limiting factor is.
@@daliasprints9798 exactly. I do find that my print quality is OK at pretty high acceleration.
What are Input Shaping frequencies? And what shapers are used? There is no point of high accelerations if resonance frequencies are low, because shaper will fillet corners.
Correct me if im wrong but in your video you talk about slowing down for corners or square_corner_velocity, From my understanding on a delta you don't need to slow down, Ive had mine at 99999 with zero issues.
How did you print flow test for delta? CNC kitchen site offer gcode for square area only
and how to calculate and add input shaper results?
You didn’t disclose what you set the acceltodecel values at for any given accel. Nor the SCV, which dramatically impacts those slow downs at junctions
Maybe I miss understood but 100’000mm/s^2 are a little more than 10G acceleration…are you sure abou those values? I love flsun I also own a Superracer but those number result quite unbelivable to me…
Yes that's real. Even the Ender 3's X axis can do 10G with input shaping. It's around 25-40G that gets difficult even for deltas.
The values are very much real, you can move that fast, although it is difficult to keep the printer stiff enoguh to print at those accels
Are you interesred in reviewing the Creality K printers Adam? I ask because I trust your opinions, the reviews I have seen of the K1 are very strange, the reviewers seem to be bigging up Creality, I have not seen an out of the box print on this machine without issues yet.
K1 max is on the way, but they are busy fixing issues apparently and so it's delayed.
@@Vector3DP Wow! Creality fixing issues, now that is a first and shows just how much a threat the Bamboo Lab machines and the other fast printers are to Creality.
Hi Adam, greetings from Brazil...I tested my FSUN SR with the same macro. However, my flsun started to lose steps at 20k acceleration, and 200 mm/s speed is a good performance. Regarding flow, I achieved 25 cubic millimeters. Is this an acceptable performance, or do I have some space to increase this performance?
Changing the nozzle to a nickel-plated copper or a CHT clone will increase your maximum flow rate for sure.
Oh my God do not tell me we are going to go through another Delta kick 😅
Must be really easy to enclose? Must be doable with some tall acrylic sheets and then some 3D printed parts
It's probably cheaper to just get some glass panels cut, it would be an even better and more insulated enclosure.
Very interesting. This makes me wonder if input shaper is something that would even matter with a delta machine. My limited understanding so far is that it is mostly designed to eliminate high speed artifacts which the nature of delta machines tends to already do. Your mention of the nozzle pressure variance does make me wonder however if pressure advance would still give a delta the same benefits. To be clear, it may well have these features but all I could find on the product page was that it usease Klipper but it never called out Input Shaping or Pressure Advance specifically.
I have a FLSun SR that i recently converted to Klipper, and i don't even push it that hard, but trust me, input shaping helps a lot with ringing, even a fast manual calculation.
It might be less than a comparable i3 style machine at similar speed, but it's still present, especially if it's a direct drive delta printer (significantly more mass on the effector to swing around)
Yes you need IS regardless of whether you have a delta unless you're sticking to very low accelerations or don't care about print quality. And you always need PA. Back in the days before PA folks were just content with ugly prints and parts that didn't fit together without excessive clearances.
@@daliasprints9798 No, we tuned our printers in just fine. Those who are click and print folks without regard for machine setup were fine with ugly, poor fitting parts.
@@chrismay2298 I look forward to the demo of your machine running 100k acceleration with no input shaping.
Yeah the graphs are cool but I would like to see this delta print something at 400mm/s with 20k accell, like for real.
Someone should try a goliath hotend on this beast
Would be curious to see this tested with PETG
I print PETG at 400mm/sec @240C.
embrace PCTG, it's way better x)
@@lap87 what’s pctg
@@truantray hmm.... travel speed?
@@antok86 Yes and at 1000 accel
I think for 800$ it is better to buy Bambu Lab P1P or P1S. True core XY speed and awesome software from Bambu.
For you, yes. 👍 If your bed is moving, your print is showing it. Yes, even in just "Z".
mm^2/sec?? It's mm/sec^2
I'm a bit surprised by your acceleration scale...
1 'g' is 10 m/s^2 or 10'000 mm/s^2.
At 1 g a mass of 400 grams produces a force of 4 newtons
10 g means you have 40 N (newtons) on the machine, equivalent to a static load of 4 kg in the direction of the acceleration... It can be imagined that the V400 structure and motors is able to lift this weight in the Z direction... Now lean the printer on one of its side and the 4 kg looks and are harder to move: given the arm's angle the real force along each arm is necessarily much higher: Say that the printer is in the center, the arms angle is about 60°, it means that to sustain a load of 40 N you have 40 N along each the 2 lower arms and 80 newtons on the upper one, and 86% of that supported by the belts and motors...
You say that you reached 50 g, or a static load equivalent to a head of 20 kg... I'm a bit sceptical even if this load is sustained only during a short time. This means in the XY plane and depending on the acceleration direction, one belt of your printer is supporting 340 N, the equivalent of 34 kg of load plus its own tension.
V-400 motors are the longest NEMA 17 currently available. Maximum torque is 55 Ncm or 550 Nmm. Pulleys have a working diameter of 12.8 mm, so the radius is 6.4 mm and the maximum pulling force on the belt is 550/6.4 = 92 N and this is the static torque. At high speed it's much less...
So with your 50 g of acceleration the motor is supposed to pull nearly 4 times its holding torque... Please explain the magic.
Or maybe you had too much '0' in stock and added one on the acceleration scale??? My own tests with the same macro seems to confirm that... I'm personally unable to get more than 5 g at 200 mm/s without loosing steps...
There is a simple way to improve the acceleration without increasing the loads on the printer: Reduce the moving mass. I'm working on that and I bet that a 130 grams head, with direct drive extruder, can accelerate 3 times faster than the stock one.
I just did a Fast test with my flsun SR, i could do 400mm^2 @ 100000 mm^2 accel (hundred thousand) and i have a DD head (362 gram head) i haven't done more yet
@@SuperKoe As calculated above, 10 g is within the load limits of the motors if you and your drivers tune the current properly, and specially with a 10% lighter head.
Another question is to be sure that what you ask is what you get... It's within the range of an ADXL 345, so we can have a direct measurement and an answer.
Why would anyone do test-prints with ABS, especially without enclosure..?
because ABS is the best case to show flow rate, meaning its the easiest to extrude than pla or especially petg
@@TeaObvious interesting... if that's true I just learned something new.
@@autofctrl abs gets melts better than pla etc
8:33 these layers.. 🤮 its me and I cancel the print to start again 🤣🤣🤣🤣
ugh. delta hell. where straight is never straight. it always seems like you're calibrating more than you're printing. deltas just aren't worth the headaches.
For those who don't understand the kinematics and can't set up a machine, yes. Been running deltas for years in production without issue. Your anecdotal experience isn't all encompassing...
Lame title, delta printers are the fastest one. You make it sound like some kind of revelation😂
I understand what you think, but this is pretty inaccurate. You mentioned if you are going to print with max 400mm/s, it is possible to just set accels at 100k. However, for example, the extruder will definitely not come close to hitting such accelerations, and your print quality and strength will suffer greatly. Furthermore, the flow rate tests are inaccurate, as it’s purely by view. If you really want to find an accurate extrusion rate that doesn’t underextrude, tune EM on a low flow rate (Refer to Ellis’s tuning guide), then increase flow rate until you can see underextrusion. That is a much more accurate and realistic way. Also, larger layer heights and nozzles increase flow rate (quite significantly), so it is absurd to just say 0.3LH can flow 220mm/s, so 0.15LH can flow 400mm/s. Lastly, if you have such great acceleration differences between your inner and outer perimeter (you mentioned set outer to max recommended by IS and internal can be close to the max of motion system), your pressure advance value will not work for both accels, and major corner gaps or even perimeter gaps (or vice versa - bulging) will occur, leading to much lower strength/quality. Sorry to say this, but your values and recommendations are rather inaccurate and will result in rather bad quality and low strength parts.
Lots of common misunderstandings in your post. PA is not acceleration dependent except as a consequence of Klipper's smoothing operation, which makes it very inaccurate. As smooth time is decreased, and moreso if you patch Klipper not to smooth the base position only the advancement, it asymptotically approaches being completely independent of acceleration. At 5ms or so, it should be independent for practical purposes. You can definitely use over 100k acceleration with quality extrusion if your extruder is up to the task of the rapid PA adjustments needed.
You are correct, but because the extruder is not capable enough at low smooth times at 100k accels, it is completely unrealistic
@@gedeonang7077 It's still perfectly usable for everything but outer perimeters.
@@daliasprints9798 The extruder is insufficient for that
They locked down the board so you can't upgrade klipper or add other features, they glue the nozzle to the cover and heat block, hard pass, may be fast, but too locked down for future or user preference
You can run vanilla klipper on the speederpad, it's what a lot of people do and it's an improvement
Nozzle swap and firmware with stock OS klipper both pretty easy. My machine is running OS klipper from 2nd day I owned it.
@@Vector3DP think he’s referring to the bambu
@@VersedPlaysTM Nope Flsun
@@Vector3DP For you, not for out the box users
Of course it does. Its kinematic system is vastly superior to the corexy clowncar everybody's on.
I thought you might be building a K3