I have also played in 4 tournaments (1 being a GT) in the LA area as empire of man. I run a balanced list, with 550pts in statetroops and no artillery. True Madness lol. Somehow I was able to win on average 2/5 games, mostly due to facing weaker lists on the bottom brackets. Detachment and smaller units seem key for statetroops to work, otherwise you will lose every combat. I find empire knights and demigryph knights to be overrated, while for some bizare reason inner circle seem to be really good. Magic wise, i find battle magic to be the best with arcane urgency and pillar of fire being key to winning. Dark magic is also pretty decent. A General on a monster is almost an auto include for sturdiness and firepower with a dragon bow. Notes from my experience coming from 8th edition fantasy converting to the old world: Number 1 increased base size for infantry leads to very slow and combersome infantry blocks, that take up a suprising amount of board space for cheap infantry. Number 2 50% character limit is oppresive, being able to spend 50% of points on characters leads to lot of stat checking games of, can you kill my 500pt lord on dragon and 250 point lvl 4? Number 3 Most opponents are a blast to play against. Generally 1/5 games I would conisder to have played against an unfun opponent, which is usually do to minor things like a boring list or mismatching personality. Keep up the good fight!
I reckon character limit should be 750 at 2k, so if you have a dragon that's pretty much your lot Magic also isn't my favourite system level 4 being auto take feels bad
I think you’re underestimating how much diversity there is at top tables. Top of the Square Based Online Tournament was Wood Elves, then Orcs and Goblins, High Elves and Tomb Kings. Where I am Errantry Crusade rules the local roost. Old World events are really rich.
on the pillar of fire convo at 38minutes. Wood elves can bring 5 sister of the thorn units in special, each unit pick one spell from either battle magic or elementals at the start of the game. So 5 pillars of fire plus what your characters cast. They all move at the start both BOTH players turn. Yes they have good dame but they are also dangerous terrain, so they really slow down the enemy while kiting them around with elves. Have fun chagrining into fire and flee fiend flight, through 5 pillars of fire. You also have access to a dragon lord on top, coz why not.
I'm curious on what people think about... the fact that while It's niche Dwarf Cannons aren't up to par with the Empire Great Cannons, the fact that they can take cheap runes making them count as magical attacks helps them counter VC ethereal units at least, Green Knight, High Elf Dragons with Ethereal spell etc. Seeing as the current vibe is that generally cannon's don't seem worth it for dwarves I wonder if the current meta will shift how people think about that?
Dwarf cannon are probably worth it if you take them in the expedition force so that you can move and shoot. They still don't have the monster-killing power of empire great cannon, but their threat range for grape shot is a real threat
If you play them on engineer expedition maybe you will see cannons But with things like royal clan and normal dwarfs irondrakes with trollhammer torpedo is cheaper and more reliable
Now i just have this mental image of the vampire counts army feasting on the remains and survivors of Mordian Glory's Empire mercenary company, and as they are reveling in the blood shed they look up to the ridge line dominating the battlefield, and there kneeling in prayer is the Grail knight rise force that was meant to join the mercenaries to scouge the land of the vampire's taint. The knights finish their prayer and pull themselves back into the saddle and the cry goes up along the line. "THE LADY!" And comes the thunder of hooves.
1:25:29 See this is where I think Prince Ulther's Dragon Company shines. They have braced pistols, so they can still engage in the shooting, whilst also maintaining some bite in their melee.
Empire has some frankly bad writing. State Troops are just overpointed for what you get, and the units that should buff them e.g. Warrior Priests, are underpowered. Warrior Priest Prayers are the equivalent of Empire's unique spell lore and its just weak or really situational. The lack of magic item support for prayers too also make them seem like a lazy afterthought. And don't even start on trash units like Witchhunters - what is the point at all if you don't have enough flexibility to get at least some buff against the enemy in front of you??
I expect the arcane tome should help shore up the week spots. IMO state troops could cost 1 less point though. They cost the same as an orc, but the orc is T4 with furious charge and choppas (reroll 1s to wound, -1 ap on charge).
Impetuous can be a negative against a player with fast chaff to draw your units out of the line, just don’t go marching column and risk the failed charge 😂
One of the great things with state troops is chucking in captains, this ignore panic rule for them is good, especially if detachments or screening units break through them, and for Empire every leadership test you don’t have to take is fantastic, I’ll have to have a read on warrior priests, they aren’t always amazing in each edition
I like my Empire-themed Ogre Kingdoms army. Two Ironblasters, and a smattering of leadbealchers on the flanks. Block of Bulls, smaller block of Ironguts, and characters on foot. Love me a narrative army!
I have not had a chance to play old world yet, but it would be sad to see state troops go. @mordianglory would you be able to suggest some empire infantry proxies that are right size? I don't have a 3d printer though unfortunately
This. The simple fact that GW's TOW Design Team have said that due to unprecedented sales success they are in an entirely different ball park leaves it open that they formalise all of the legacy factions as actual factions.
In my (limited) experience, there's a serious Skaven problem with refusing to play to the faction's strengths. It's like the first few weeks of the edition with dwarfs, everyone's playing to what they've assumed at first glance and then just digging their heels in. Great characters, great skirmishers, good manoeuvrability, good shooting and screening, and easy ways to stack up to decent combat capabilities. The two metas you generally see are "I'll headslam with multiple hellpits and a stormvermin doomstack" (sucks) or "I have this one weird gimmick that will win me a few games and lose me the rest" (sucks).
I think you're very much wrong. The characters aren't points efficient, gutter runners specifically are great but very high points cost for very fragile rats that have no protection from the ever present magic missiles. Our infantry is fast but in a cavelry and dragon rich edition we are a long way from fast or agile. No way to fight dragons which are very common. Shooting hugely nurfed with the loss of warplightning cannons 'cannon' rules. Ratling guns are good but come with big clan rat tax. Zapp is great if it wasn't part of a 145pt unreliable super fragile chassis. Even the hellpit is overcosted. I'm not going to stop taking Skaven to tournaments for as long as it's allowed, but that's in spite of their rules not because there's any measure of power there. And from what iv seen and the Skaven players Ive talked too that's the prevailing feeling.
@That_Rat_Bastrd I overall agree with your assessment of the army. As Skavens, our top damage dealers are: * Gutter Runners, which are fragile and have no AP, they do most of the damage through saturation. * Jezzails, which usually hit on 5+, so you need to take at least 6 to me somewhat a bit effective. * Hellpits, which TBH they don’t hit like a truck, and their T5 makes them somewhat easy to kill. * A Seer in a bell with illusion, ogre sword and familiar for doppelganger, miasmic, and column of crystal to deal with dangerous things. I think part of the issue with the army lies in the restrictions on characters and units that you can take for every 1k points. Also, not being able to shoot into combat and the nerf to the warplightning cannon makes the Skaven lists very ineffective (You can't shoot your opponent to force them comes to you and neither go forward seeking combat, usually you are outclassed on both ). Having said that, last Sunday I went to a 16-person tournament and ended up 3rd with Skavens, but it was very rough, and the lists of my opponents weren’t too tough at all.
@@pabloquintanacasanova3374 Congratulations on the podium placement, I agree with your take here too, I know it's not impossible to win games with Skaven, but more than one in a tournament is borderline miraculous. Even weak lists from other factions can comfortably beat our best attempts, unless luck heavily favours us.
There is a simple way to end the Vampires scream meta: errata that leadership modifiers don't stack. Suddenly screams max out at -2L, which still has the potential to stack wounds from multiple sources, but not automatically wipe entire units, and it's no longer guaranteed that everything explodes or flees off the board with no counter play.
Agree. Also better army composition balance. It's too easy to maximize all the best units and not invest in 'core warhammer' units (not just VC). Need higher core % and lower characters %; character mounts counts as special/rare and with some more stringent 0-1 limitations in certain units.
@@tomdudley5314 honestly I prefer having more flexibility to build what you want, so you're not just facing the same basic army composition with every opponent. The needed balance is in ensuring every unit type has a counter. In the case of the Dragon meta, I liked the old rules set where monstrous mounts and their riders were separate entities that could be killed independently and didn't stack defenses, but in this ruleset I think simply making flaming attacks negate all regen saves would go a long way to reigning in unkillable save stacking hero units and actually make flaming attacks not useless.
@@tomdudley5314 also simply making heroes on monsters susceptible to both kinds of killing blow, or making both killing blows a single rule would make big difference in offering a counter to these kinds of lists. The ability to equip two heroes in any army with killing blow that can evaporate your 500pt model suddenly creates a game of keep away that stops double dragon lists from just charging and tabling every opponent they face. It adds a level of nuance and tactics that I think would balance the meta without having to curtail list building directly.
Just make the Bashees require a leadership test per activation ......... Just like every other character interaction (except Engies which should have to function the same way).
@@nklinef adding "units immune to psychology are immune to this scream" would be lore friendly but also absolutley annihilate the list. Atleast adding something like the -2 from the scream doesnt work vs immune to psychology would nerf the list ever so slightly.
As a fledgeling WE player I would add a few strengths to our armies. Its supremely suited for MSU. Core is actually good. A reservemove gladerider unit for your main spellcaster and then just fill the rest woth capable archers. So the core-tax isnt realy there We also have arguably the best movement in the game. What we unfortunatley also have is a critical weakness vs magic missiles and other things that autohit. And with everyone bringing massed mages its scary. WE feels like an army that will thrive in some metas and get stomped in others
Based on 2000 pts tournament experience in Italy the tier 1 army are: Vampire Counts (simply OP, they play another game) Tomb Kings Bretonnia Dwarfs with 6 cannon and 3 torpedo and copters... Wood Elves / High Elves ... Fluff armies in tournaments, simply no possibility to compete: Daemons Lizard Skaven
had a guy get 2nd in a tournament i was recently in with Lizardmen. His list has 6x 10 skink skirmishers lord on carno & an ethereal Slann Lvl 4 illusion, lore familiar, Obsidian blade & then just going ham with spectral doppelganger & obsidian blade combo.
@@Ultr4l0f People who say stuff like this are always talking rubbish. All three of those armies have done well at events. There is just no basis in reality.
The problem with defining what the meta is, is that its regional and event driven. Is there a comp where you are? Are people running max 3? Or are they playing it straight out of the book (i.e the right way)?
VC screamer list is a game where only one player gets to play. If I ran against that in a tourney I wouldn't bother putting my army out and would just concede. I'd have more fun watching someone else play an actual game.
I love this idea except that I'd never get to play my screamingbell it's well over costed at 185pts for the mount for the 185pt wizard. You'd also never see a warlord. Skaven need a BSB no way around it. And half out units are locked behind subfaction characters (warlockengineers and plague priests) and obviously level 4's are sadly a soft requirement. So this would nerf us more than most and we're already big struggling.
Vampire counts are tough, but theyre not broken. I've shredded them with Dwarves, Tomb Kings, and Bretonnia. They've turned my Empire into ground long pork every time Ive fought them.
I don’t know where you guys have got this orc artillery park thing from. I think it’s a local issue where you guys are. The best orc and goblin armies in settings like the Square Based Online Tournament have been balanced hybrid armies. Couple of doom divers and a load of other threat.
Is mostly the doomdivers I had run into lists of 3 doomdivers a few times and the new faq that allows them to target lone characters that usually wouldnt be able to is just ufff
54 minutes in and saying that Wood Elves are a gimmick and not very competitive as we've not seen them do well yet...and yet Wood Elves won (came 1st) the Square based online GT. You mentioned go listen to Square Based, you should also listen to Close Order. 1 hr 21 minutes in and you bring the Wood Elves up again mentioning the double dragon thing, but they have extremely strong magic elements amongst other things and are doing well, just depends where you are in the world it seems.
I feel like you're underestimating chariots, because you are looking at them as individual units. Impact hits are AMAZING(autohit strike first attacks? Yes please!) Once you start throwing 2+ chariots into a single combat, those impact hits start adding up with the potential to wipe out the first rank of an infantry brick before combat even starts! Add onto that stacking close order for combat rez, cheap characters on top for more durability/combat punch(also a chariot BSB has a bigger footprint and extra combat rez), and the Chariot Runners rule giving them a shield against charges and ranged attacks that they can themselves charge through to break turn 2 stand offs.
U spam 9 Gyrocopters, have a ton of meaningless 5 man crossbow squads with a champ for challenge tar Pitting, and u have an Anvil of Doom backing it up.
I hear ya. For me its good. Since I want to try tournaments and also my most common opponent is a person who cares little for fluff but and just wants to play optimaly. But if I play against someone else in my club I just ask if they are gonna bring a strong list or a fluffy list and then bring a likeminded one myself.
"Old world is a game where you don't got rerolls" Laughs in Nomadic Waaagh, where my 3 orc bosses can call Waaghs to reroll 1s to hit, the choppas rule lets me reroll 1s to wound, the Necklace of Blessed Teeth me reroll 1s on both my armor and ward save, Idol of Gork lets me reroll casting and Idol of Mork lets me reroll Dispel. For a faction that allegedly leans into randomness, greenskins have a lot of ways to mitigate it.
The problem with RUclips and Internet and these meta gaming shenanigans is that it completely disregard how GW games are actually balanced and have to be balanced. There are two important key factors that you have to take into consideration when GW balance their games. 1. The person making an army know the person they will be playing 2. The know the army they will be facing. 3. They know roughly what models they may be facing. 4. The have a fair knowledge about what scenarios and the rules around them they will be using. These games have always and will always be balanced around these concepts and not around tournament play where you make an army that can face anything randomly where you have no clue what you will go up against. There is a reason why say "The Blazing Banner" cost 25p and that is not because it is useful in tournament play that is for sure... I guess that 90% of players who buy models and play these games play with friends they know and with highly restrictive amount of models and knowledge of each others armies. When my friends play against my Tomb Kings I don't feel that a 25p banner that gives flaming attack is a bad investment of points, that's for sure. Or when my friends using his Dwarfs put flaming runes on their units... Infantry can also be good if you have scenario rules to make them more important, but do agree infantry might need some improvements to be more relevant aside from some anvil low cost infantry in general.
@@lucaswatson1913 the ruby ring should be at the flank. What are you going to do with your wizard, cover the ring at the flank or the enemy's lvl 4 wizard in the middle of the board? Choices, choices...
State troops suck and are way too expensive when you try to make them competent. They need to make detachment rules more appealing. In my opinion I think their leadership should be better since they are a professional army. Also… knights are key. Inner circle must be core.
Banshees do 4-6 wounds per turn with a double magic set up. Great cannons do 3-4 wounds with no set up, max range and while standing at the back of the map. Hate to say it .... they're both cheese and both are crutches.
But canons have alot of counterplay. And the wounds are spread out worse. You cant wipe a unit of knights with a single cannonball without them Messing up.
@@Ultr4l0f Totally understand. My comment wasnt one is worse or better purely putting Bashee's in context. Unavoidable wounds/uncounterable mecahincs are gotcha's and are not fun.
skaven got shut down everything. all skaven did is gone. theres nothing. warmachines, bad. monsters, average at most. shooting into combat, gone. cheap chaff units, gone. interesting magic items, gone. what left is skaven infantry, but infantry is bad, skaven infantry is even worse. for example, there is absolutely no point in giving clanrats anything. you have to field two units of clanrats, so you take two units for 160 points with no upgrades, you can park your rattling guns here. every single unit was heavily nerfed, is overcosted or just gone. warplightningcannon is a joke, plagueclaw doesnt wound anything, same for every poisonwind weapon. magical items, all shit. dont even think of taking one. i confirm, what he played vs mordian glory is the pinnacle of skaven list building. i tinkered around and didnt came up with something else, theres just not a single good unit, so you fill up a somewhat coherent list of the least bad units. i say, points dont fix this mess. point reductions will not bring any fun into skaven. just remake the last skaven book, many units are like their last itteration and even better, some armies even got new units, skaven got nothing, only stripped down to the bone, every rule and every flavour removed. on top of that, games wokeness removed skaven slaves, without any word. what botheres me, is that every single list is made of monsters, nothing else, oldworld crumbles.
>games wokeness removed skaven slaves I feel it's not about the wokeness, but about mistakes of the 8th, where Skavenslaves were absolutely broken and nobody took Clanrats
@@blecao it's due to step up mechanics and limited rank bonuses. A brick of Skavenslaves would still be a horror to deal with, especially with the old rules for firing into melee in effect
People complaining about cannonballs are ridiculous. Pretty much the strongest thing to tears down stone walls. The empire is easily top two worse teams. Nubes would complain about Empire being overpowered even if they literally had no army.
People complaining about cannonballs are ridiculous. Pretty much the strongest thing to tears down stone walls. The empire is easily top two worse teams. Nubes would complain about Empire being overpowered even if they literally had no army.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Weakest factions are Kislev and Cathay, I haven't seen either get a single win.
Meanwhile, Nippon are winning events left right and centre. Bloody ninjas.
I have also played in 4 tournaments (1 being a GT) in the LA area as empire of man. I run a balanced list, with 550pts in statetroops and no artillery. True Madness lol. Somehow I was able to win on average 2/5 games, mostly due to facing weaker lists on the bottom brackets. Detachment and smaller units seem key for statetroops to work, otherwise you will lose every combat. I find empire knights and demigryph knights to be overrated, while for some bizare reason inner circle seem to be really good. Magic wise, i find battle magic to be the best with arcane urgency and pillar of fire being key to winning. Dark magic is also pretty decent. A General on a monster is almost an auto include for sturdiness and firepower with a dragon bow.
Notes from my experience coming from 8th edition fantasy converting to the old world: Number 1 increased base size for infantry leads to very slow and combersome infantry blocks, that take up a suprising amount of board space for cheap infantry. Number 2 50% character limit is oppresive, being able to spend 50% of points on characters leads to lot of stat checking games of, can you kill my 500pt lord on dragon and 250 point lvl 4? Number 3 Most opponents are a blast to play against. Generally 1/5 games I would conisder to have played against an unfun opponent, which is usually do to minor things like a boring list or mismatching personality.
Keep up the good fight!
I reckon character limit should be 750 at 2k, so if you have a dragon that's pretty much your lot
Magic also isn't my favourite system level 4 being auto take feels bad
I think you’re underestimating how much diversity there is at top tables. Top of the Square Based Online Tournament was Wood Elves, then Orcs and Goblins, High Elves and Tomb Kings. Where I am Errantry Crusade rules the local roost. Old World events are really rich.
And then they followed that up with Empire winning their in-person tournament.
Errantly crusade 😎🐌🪽 that's awesome do you have a list?
on the pillar of fire convo at 38minutes. Wood elves can bring 5 sister of the thorn units in special, each unit pick one spell from either battle magic or elementals at the start of the game. So 5 pillars of fire plus what your characters cast. They all move at the start both BOTH players turn. Yes they have good dame but they are also dangerous terrain, so they really slow down the enemy while kiting them around with elves. Have fun chagrining into fire and flee fiend flight, through 5 pillars of fire. You also have access to a dragon lord on top, coz why not.
I'm curious on what people think about... the fact that while It's niche Dwarf Cannons aren't up to par with the Empire Great Cannons, the fact that they can take cheap runes making them count as magical attacks helps them counter VC ethereal units at least, Green Knight, High Elf Dragons with Ethereal spell etc. Seeing as the current vibe is that generally cannon's don't seem worth it for dwarves I wonder if the current meta will shift how people think about that?
Dwarf cannon are probably worth it if you take them in the expedition force so that you can move and shoot. They still don't have the monster-killing power of empire great cannon, but their threat range for grape shot is a real threat
If you play them on engineer expedition maybe you will see cannons
But with things like royal clan and normal dwarfs irondrakes with trollhammer torpedo is cheaper and more reliable
always enjoy the old world content!
Now i just have this mental image of the vampire counts army feasting on the remains and survivors of Mordian Glory's Empire mercenary company, and as they are reveling in the blood shed they look up to the ridge line dominating the battlefield, and there kneeling in prayer is the Grail knight rise force that was meant to join the mercenaries to scouge the land of the vampire's taint.
The knights finish their prayer and pull themselves back into the saddle and the cry goes up along the line.
"THE LADY!"
And comes the thunder of hooves.
1:25:29 See this is where I think Prince Ulther's Dragon Company shines. They have braced pistols, so they can still engage in the shooting, whilst also maintaining some bite in their melee.
Empire has some frankly bad writing. State Troops are just overpointed for what you get, and the units that should buff them e.g. Warrior Priests, are underpowered. Warrior Priest Prayers are the equivalent of Empire's unique spell lore and its just weak or really situational. The lack of magic item support for prayers too also make them seem like a lazy afterthought. And don't even start on trash units like Witchhunters - what is the point at all if you don't have enough flexibility to get at least some buff against the enemy in front of you??
I expect the arcane tome should help shore up the week spots. IMO state troops could cost 1 less point though. They cost the same as an orc, but the orc is T4 with furious charge and choppas (reroll 1s to wound, -1 ap on charge).
@@avocadoarmadillo7031but also has Impetuous.
@@footpatroltzchar375 Impetuous on infantry doesn't really effect you as if you can charge, you want to.
Impetuous can be a negative against a player with fast chaff to draw your units out of the line, just don’t go marching column and risk the failed charge 😂
One of the great things with state troops is chucking in captains, this ignore panic rule for them is good, especially if detachments or screening units break through them, and for Empire every leadership test you don’t have to take is fantastic, I’ll have to have a read on warrior priests, they aren’t always amazing in each edition
I like my Empire-themed Ogre Kingdoms army. Two Ironblasters, and a smattering of leadbealchers on the flanks. Block of Bulls, smaller block of Ironguts, and characters on foot. Love me a narrative army!
I have not had a chance to play old world yet, but it would be sad to see state troops go. @mordianglory would you be able to suggest some empire infantry proxies that are right size? I don't have a 3d printer though unfortunately
Screams should just do d3 wounds if you fail. It would reign it in so much from what it is now.
51:43 baning legacy factions would be death of Old World, a lot of ppl (in my area) that shifted from 6th to Old World plays legacy.
This.
The simple fact that GW's TOW Design Team have said that due to unprecedented sales success they are in an entirely different ball park leaves it open that they formalise all of the legacy factions as actual factions.
In my (limited) experience, there's a serious Skaven problem with refusing to play to the faction's strengths. It's like the first few weeks of the edition with dwarfs, everyone's playing to what they've assumed at first glance and then just digging their heels in. Great characters, great skirmishers, good manoeuvrability, good shooting and screening, and easy ways to stack up to decent combat capabilities. The two metas you generally see are "I'll headslam with multiple hellpits and a stormvermin doomstack" (sucks) or "I have this one weird gimmick that will win me a few games and lose me the rest" (sucks).
I think you're very much wrong.
The characters aren't points efficient, gutter runners specifically are great but very high points cost for very fragile rats that have no protection from the ever present magic missiles.
Our infantry is fast but in a cavelry and dragon rich edition we are a long way from fast or agile.
No way to fight dragons which are very common.
Shooting hugely nurfed with the loss of warplightning cannons 'cannon' rules. Ratling guns are good but come with big clan rat tax.
Zapp is great if it wasn't part of a 145pt unreliable super fragile chassis.
Even the hellpit is overcosted.
I'm not going to stop taking Skaven to tournaments for as long as it's allowed, but that's in spite of their rules not because there's any measure of power there. And from what iv seen and the Skaven players Ive talked too that's the prevailing feeling.
@That_Rat_Bastrd I overall agree with your assessment of the army. As Skavens, our top damage dealers are:
* Gutter Runners, which are fragile and have no AP, they do most of the damage through saturation.
* Jezzails, which usually hit on 5+, so you need to take at least 6 to me somewhat a bit effective.
* Hellpits, which TBH they don’t hit like a truck, and their T5 makes them somewhat easy to kill.
* A Seer in a bell with illusion, ogre sword and familiar for doppelganger, miasmic, and column of crystal to deal with dangerous things.
I think part of the issue with the army lies in the restrictions on characters and units that you can take for every 1k points. Also, not being able to shoot into combat and the nerf to the warplightning cannon makes the Skaven lists very ineffective (You can't shoot your opponent to force them comes to you and neither go forward seeking combat, usually you are outclassed on both ).
Having said that, last Sunday I went to a 16-person tournament and ended up 3rd with Skavens, but it was very rough, and the lists of my opponents weren’t too tough at all.
@@pabloquintanacasanova3374 Congratulations on the podium placement, I agree with your take here too, I know it's not impossible to win games with Skaven, but more than one in a tournament is borderline miraculous. Even weak lists from other factions can comfortably beat our best attempts, unless luck heavily favours us.
There is a simple way to end the Vampires scream meta:
errata that leadership modifiers don't stack.
Suddenly screams max out at -2L, which still has the potential to stack wounds from multiple sources, but not automatically wipe entire units, and it's no longer guaranteed that everything explodes or flees off the board with no counter play.
Agree. Also better army composition balance. It's too easy to maximize all the best units and not invest in 'core warhammer' units (not just VC). Need higher core % and lower characters %; character mounts counts as special/rare and with some more stringent 0-1 limitations in certain units.
@@tomdudley5314 honestly I prefer having more flexibility to build what you want, so you're not just facing the same basic army composition with every opponent. The needed balance is in ensuring every unit type has a counter. In the case of the Dragon meta, I liked the old rules set where monstrous mounts and their riders were separate entities that could be killed independently and didn't stack defenses, but in this ruleset I think simply making flaming attacks negate all regen saves would go a long way to reigning in unkillable save stacking hero units and actually make flaming attacks not useless.
@@tomdudley5314 also simply making heroes on monsters susceptible to both kinds of killing blow, or making both killing blows a single rule would make big difference in offering a counter to these kinds of lists.
The ability to equip two heroes in any army with killing blow that can evaporate your 500pt model suddenly creates a game of keep away that stops double dragon lists from just charging and tabling every opponent they face. It adds a level of nuance and tactics that I think would balance the meta without having to curtail list building directly.
Just make the Bashees require a leadership test per activation ......... Just like every other character interaction (except Engies which should have to function the same way).
@@nklinef adding "units immune to psychology are immune to this scream" would be lore friendly but also absolutley annihilate the list.
Atleast adding something like the -2 from the scream doesnt work vs immune to psychology would nerf the list ever so slightly.
54:10 WE are doing very well when they show up SBOT for example, they are being held back by lack of availablility and high hobby requirements i think
As a fledgeling WE player I would add a few strengths to our armies.
Its supremely suited for MSU.
Core is actually good.
A reservemove gladerider unit for your main spellcaster and then just fill the rest woth capable archers. So the core-tax isnt realy there
We also have arguably the best movement in the game.
What we unfortunatley also have is a critical weakness vs magic missiles and other things that autohit.
And with everyone bringing massed mages its scary.
WE feels like an army that will thrive in some metas and get stomped in others
Based on 2000 pts tournament experience in Italy the tier 1 army are:
Vampire Counts (simply OP, they play another game)
Tomb Kings
Bretonnia
Dwarfs with 6 cannon and 3 torpedo and copters...
Wood Elves / High Elves
...
Fluff armies in tournaments, simply no possibility to compete:
Daemons
Lizard
Skaven
Are lizardmen that weak? Never met them but they seem to have a bit of everything so I just imagined some list would be strong
had a guy get 2nd in a tournament i was recently in with Lizardmen. His list has 6x 10 skink skirmishers lord on carno & an ethereal Slann Lvl 4 illusion, lore familiar, Obsidian blade & then just going ham with spectral doppelganger & obsidian blade combo.
@@Ultr4l0f People who say stuff like this are always talking rubbish. All three of those armies have done well at events. There is just no basis in reality.
@@morerobotwarscontent1476 let me know lists and tournament level of these events.
The problem with defining what the meta is, is that its regional and event driven. Is there a comp where you are? Are people running max 3? Or are they playing it straight out of the book (i.e the right way)?
VC screamer list is a game where only one player gets to play. If I ran against that in a tourney I wouldn't bother putting my army out and would just concede. I'd have more fun watching someone else play an actual game.
Was at a tournament yesterday, two scream lists one lost 2/3 on lost 1 it's not unbeatable
I feel this about grey knights in 40k atm. Just a waste of time playing them right now.
Thoughts on changing the list building rules from max 50% characters and min 25% core, to 33% each?
Me and my friend did this for our games, the armies look like armies!
@@vultanh Go farther! 50% required for core, 25% max for anything else.
I love this idea except that I'd never get to play my screamingbell it's well over costed at 185pts for the mount for the 185pt wizard. You'd also never see a warlord.
Skaven need a BSB no way around it.
And half out units are locked behind subfaction characters (warlockengineers and plague priests) and obviously level 4's are sadly a soft requirement.
So this would nerf us more than most and we're already big struggling.
As a DE player, it's funny that they gave us HE rules but worst in everything lmao
Great convo! Background music is a little loud to the point of distraction at times.
Vampire counts are tough, but theyre not broken. I've shredded them with Dwarves, Tomb Kings, and Bretonnia. They've turned my Empire into ground long pork every time Ive fought them.
Won't mind them.being powerful if they're power didn't come from such a damn anti-fun uninteractive mechanic.
It's pure bad game design.
I don’t know where you guys have got this orc artillery park thing from. I think it’s a local issue where you guys are. The best orc and goblin armies in settings like the Square Based Online Tournament have been balanced hybrid armies. Couple of doom divers and a load of other threat.
Is mostly the doomdivers
I had run into lists of 3 doomdivers a few times and the new faq that allows them to target lone characters that usually wouldnt be able to is just ufff
@@blecao FWIW, doom divers are 1 per 1000 points so normally capped at 2. Not saying they aren’t great!
54 minutes in and saying that Wood Elves are a gimmick and not very competitive as we've not seen them do well yet...and yet Wood Elves won (came 1st) the Square based online GT. You mentioned go listen to Square Based, you should also listen to Close Order. 1 hr 21 minutes in and you bring the Wood Elves up again mentioning the double dragon thing, but they have extremely strong magic elements amongst other things and are doing well, just depends where you are in the world it seems.
Brayherd today, Brayherd tomorrow, Brayherd forever.
33:09 A DEEP DOIVE!
I feel like you're underestimating chariots, because you are looking at them as individual units.
Impact hits are AMAZING(autohit strike first attacks? Yes please!)
Once you start throwing 2+ chariots into a single combat, those impact hits start adding up with the potential to wipe out the first rank of an infantry brick before combat even starts! Add onto that stacking close order for combat rez, cheap characters on top for more durability/combat punch(also a chariot BSB has a bigger footprint and extra combat rez), and the Chariot Runners rule giving them a shield against charges and ranged attacks that they can themselves charge through to break turn 2 stand offs.
Another thing to mention about chariots is that they are immune to both versions of killing blow.
Actually the tournament meta is Gyrocopter spam
U spam 9 Gyrocopters, have a ton of meaningless 5 man crossbow squads with a champ for challenge tar Pitting, and u have an Anvil of Doom backing it up.
Watching these sorts of videos sucks any enjoyment I have for gaming right out of me. My fault for watching them.
Old world is a great game
But no for competitive play
It run best on narrative and beer and pretzel games
At least IMHO
I hear ya.
For me its good. Since I want to try tournaments and also my most common opponent is a person who cares little for fluff but and just wants to play optimaly.
But if I play against someone else in my club I just ask if they are gonna bring a strong list or a fluffy list and then bring a likeminded one myself.
"Old world is a game where you don't got rerolls" Laughs in Nomadic Waaagh, where my 3 orc bosses can call Waaghs to reroll 1s to hit, the choppas rule lets me reroll 1s to wound, the Necklace of Blessed Teeth me reroll 1s on both my armor and ward save, Idol of Gork lets me reroll casting and Idol of Mork lets me reroll Dispel. For a faction that allegedly leans into randomness, greenskins have a lot of ways to mitigate it.
At least it is reroll 1's, and not Full rerolls into Full rerolls.
Are those state troops GW models or third party?
About 20 handguns short of boom village lol Mr 100 state troops
Sounds like you guys had a tough day!
The problem with RUclips and Internet and these meta gaming shenanigans is that it completely disregard how GW games are actually balanced and have to be balanced. There are two important key factors that you have to take into consideration when GW balance their games.
1. The person making an army know the person they will be playing
2. The know the army they will be facing.
3. They know roughly what models they may be facing.
4. The have a fair knowledge about what scenarios and the rules around them they will be using.
These games have always and will always be balanced around these concepts and not around tournament play where you make an army that can face anything randomly where you have no clue what you will go up against. There is a reason why say "The Blazing Banner" cost 25p and that is not because it is useful in tournament play that is for sure... I guess that 90% of players who buy models and play these games play with friends they know and with highly restrictive amount of models and knowledge of each others armies. When my friends play against my Tomb Kings I don't feel that a 25p banner that gives flaming attack is a bad investment of points, that's for sure. Or when my friends using his Dwarfs put flaming runes on their units...
Infantry can also be good if you have scenario rules to make them more important, but do agree infantry might need some improvements to be more relevant aside from some anvil low cost infantry in general.
Ruby Ring of Ruin is overused and undercosted
If there's a level 4 nearby it only goes off once or twice per game and it has no AP
@@lucaswatson1913 the ruby ring should be at the flank. What are you going to do with your wizard, cover the ring at the flank or the enemy's lvl 4 wizard in the middle of the board? Choices, choices...
Whenever I see the word "meta" used when referring to WHFB, I shudder and run for cover. 😁
Miasmic Mirage deals with big baddies pretty well. Lvl4 on a peg
full cav chaos with dragon(s) is the way
Duke and pegasus knights say hi
Who's Alex???
; )
I wish I knew man, I wish I knew...
State troops suck and are way too expensive when you try to make them competent. They need to make detachment rules more appealing. In my opinion I think their leadership should be better since they are a professional army. Also… knights are key. Inner circle must be core.
You forgot Orcs and Goblins :D
Use Flagellants against undead....... *Facepalm* and lots shooting and organ guns.....
Deamonology is the best lore imo
Rat men still best men 🐁
Banshees do 4-6 wounds per turn with a double magic set up. Great cannons do 3-4 wounds with no set up, max range and while standing at the back of the map. Hate to say it .... they're both cheese and both are crutches.
But canons have alot of counterplay.
And the wounds are spread out worse. You cant wipe a unit of knights with a single cannonball without them Messing up.
@@Ultr4l0f Totally understand. My comment wasnt one is worse or better purely putting Bashee's in context. Unavoidable wounds/uncounterable mecahincs are gotcha's and are not fun.
skaven got shut down everything.
all skaven did is gone. theres nothing.
warmachines, bad.
monsters, average at most.
shooting into combat, gone.
cheap chaff units, gone.
interesting magic items, gone.
what left is skaven infantry, but infantry is bad, skaven infantry is even worse.
for example, there is absolutely no point in giving clanrats anything.
you have to field two units of clanrats, so you take two units for 160 points with no upgrades, you can park your rattling guns here.
every single unit was heavily nerfed, is overcosted or just gone.
warplightningcannon is a joke, plagueclaw doesnt wound anything, same for every poisonwind weapon.
magical items, all shit. dont even think of taking one.
i confirm, what he played vs mordian glory is the pinnacle of skaven list building.
i tinkered around and didnt came up with something else, theres just not a single good unit,
so you fill up a somewhat coherent list of the least bad units.
i say, points dont fix this mess. point reductions will not bring any fun into skaven.
just remake the last skaven book, many units are like their last itteration and even better,
some armies even got new units, skaven got nothing, only stripped down to the bone,
every rule and every flavour removed.
on top of that, games wokeness removed skaven slaves, without any word.
what botheres me, is that every single list is made of monsters, nothing else, oldworld crumbles.
>games wokeness removed skaven slaves
I feel it's not about the wokeness, but about mistakes of the 8th, where Skavenslaves were absolutely broken and nobody took Clanrats
@@marcusflutist1230i mean in 8th infantry was good now.....
@@blecao it's due to step up mechanics and limited rank bonuses. A brick of Skavenslaves would still be a horror to deal with, especially with the old rules for firing into melee in effect
skill issue.
More TOW content please!
People complaining about cannonballs are ridiculous. Pretty much the strongest thing to tears down stone walls. The empire is easily top two worse teams. Nubes would complain about Empire being overpowered even if they literally had no army.
Empire are objectively not in the bottom two factions
Definitely not bottom 2. They have some strong lists.
😎😎
Infantry could really use step-up...
I am First sooooooooooo suck it!!!
@@zachmoss8896 simp
I sucked it. And as an avid ogre player, I would most likely go back for seconds.
@@jgascoine011 hahahahahahha
@@knedoshane does anyone else feel very uncomfortable right now?
@@zachmoss8896 He was talking about an ice block. Ogres love Ice Blocks.
...why, what were you thinking about?
People complaining about cannonballs are ridiculous. Pretty much the strongest thing to tears down stone walls. The empire is easily top two worse teams. Nubes would complain about Empire being overpowered even if they literally had no army.
Empire also have the lector who seems reeeeeally strong. The best SBOT empire list had one