Vals comment on “if you buy an airbrush you aren’t casual” is very true. My hobby space cost thousands my airbrush setup costs a grand easily. Thousands in paint sitting on my wall, and 4 TOW armies on the go being built and painted, while adding to and rebasing 7 others from my 32 years of playing and collecting
Thanks for the video gents. As someone who doesn’t play 40k it’s good to hear the comparison. Funny hearing people coming from 40k and AoS saying how well OW works whereas people coming from Fantasy saying how clunky it is ha
I think one of the biggest differences between 40K and Old World, as you picked up on at the end of the video, is that it’s all still a dice game. You can over achieve and you can fluff much easier in Old World than you can in 40K! Love it!
yea im running Warriors of Chaos with 1 daemon prince; 2x 20 man chaos warriors; 3x 5 man chaos knights and 5x 5man marauder horseman painting them in pure warpstone theme with cool glow ,, thinking of just calling them the Warpstone Knights lol
I see myself as a Miniature Game Player as a lifestyle. Games Workshop is something i occasionally dip my toes in, but there are plenty of games on the market.
On the topic of the current state of the Empire, my only real gripe right now is even in a game of infantry, my state troops don’t feel like professional soldiers, they die in droves and have ok static combat res, but peasants can hold the line far better with the same combat res and armor save in an army that typically doesn’t have a crucial backline. And just as a general note; BS shooting just feels bad. Thanks for coming to my ted talk. TLDR: If State troops felt like professional soldiers, it would go a long way toward an overall improvement to the Empire.
I agree completely. If they can't have point deductions, at the very least they need more "oumph" with regards to special rules. Drilled, Veteran, Shieldwall, different (the old) detachment rules... All these of these are valid additions that would make them more "professional" without disrupting balance or gameplay. In fact, I'd argue it would enhance the tactics of the game.
MY competetive group plays either 1. gunlines (cannons+steam tank.), 2. MSU (like skins spam or elven skirmishing, hitting on 2+ archer units) or monsters. There is one reason why it polarized that fast. Scoring system or rather lack of one. You can play points deny with monsters or MSU (when You get very little for killing a 5 men skirmishing unit for example) or something to counter monsters. Like gunlines. With existing wording You can only hide from cannon balls behind impassible terrain like rocks etc. so monsters start being taken out turn 1. The idea is that You loose a dragon turn 1/2 and then another elite monster turn 3 and You start combat with -500 points. Things get even worse when You play over 2k when You can get not 3 but 6 cannons! One more way to play point deny game is to field a 500+ point units of 30-50 models You will not have enough time to kill. Or You can heal up on the way. Khemri plays huge infantry, unkillable blocks + monsters. Dwarfs plays gunlines, Empire plays gunlines and MSU (guns + small units), Lizardmen plays MSU+monsters, elves plays MSU, Chaos plays MSU+monster... This does not look fun. I always liked a combined arms list but I see it will not work... Too many cannons for my monsters to survive, too many small targets for my units to kill...
56:57 had a tournament with my bret exiles list. 2 cannons 2 trebuchets mostly Foot Knights and archers. First two games all 4 war machines did 0 wounds total or destroyed themselves. On the 3rd and final game I tabled my opponet by turn 2 with artillery. Thats warhammer for ya lol
Val you an I quit 40k for the same reason I sold my looong time collection of dkok was painful but worth it. Switching up to the skaven very painful but worth it
This whole interview highlights why i just don't want to go to tournaments anymore. Themed events are the only thing that interests me for games in group settings.
@@Stonehorn And you'll probably never get it, no matter what the explanation is. People that are really focused on competitive play don't ever see how how it leads to burn out for the majority of players. TOW isn't there yet because its still new, but it will get there soon enough.
@@CyrodiilCome Obviously not going back all the way to 9th. But then again cavalry shouldn't be able to just frontally charge a big block of infantry and expect to win.
"The army composition is incredibly permissive" Mothsrducker they destroyed my whole list! No chariots in core? Gorebeast chariot in rate?? NO BLOOD LETTERS??? My whole collection is out. I wish I could play my biker gang chaos bastards.
I got so much vitriol for pointing out in groups that maybe, just maybe, Fighting Rank / LineHammer was going to be a thing back in January. People were losing their minds. _"It'll NEVER be a thing! If you think it will you're an idiot who have never played the game! It'll NEVER work! It can't be done!"_ 😂 Boy, those voices sure got awfully quiet, didn't they? I love TOW, but it's probably the one rule I'd change ever so slightly.
Once drilled was clarified I think is what has facilitated this issue. We use a fair amount of terrain, and you would never be able to navigate a huge line without drilled. However being able to throw an extra five guys around really changed the dynamic.
@@MrPaxy69 Ah, that was another thing I got flak for: Knowing how Drilled was supposed to work from Day 1 (same as it had worked for decades in Warhammer: Ancient Battles prior, so not really that much of an achievement). So glad we're in a much better place now with much less angry screaming. I don't know if those people just left the game. Or if they're silently eating crow. In any case, I hope everyone is having fun with the game. I know I am.
Even with drilled, I think linehammer is pretty situational. Not saying it doesn't happen but I've yet to see anyone attempt to truly make it their central strategy. And we were genuinely talking about linehammer potential when the first rules almanac dropped like last summer
Being able to get attacks out of a line is the only thing that makes any infantry even slightly relevant though I feel. Its already a game of Swiftstride units running wild and I feel that gets even worse if you can't reform super wide to try to get some attacks back when 10 blood knights or a dragon run into you.
I play vibes. Ngl. Like when I was playing against Chorfs with my troll tide of orcs He shot me with fire pikes/ melee me with them. I assumed they had flame attacks (they don't) so my opponent corrected me. I said "Nah that makes no sense that a FIRE pike doesnt have flame attacks" and house ruled them they did. Even if it meant my army just didn't have saves. Got out of the 40k scene into AoS and Conquest to avoid competive play
It was the lack of character choices that turned me away from AoS (besides blowing up my favorite universe . Ahem, sorry). I love building CHARACTERS. Unique and cool leaders with their own backgrounds and equipment. I love ToW and I haven't played a game yet (my buddies are purists and refuse to field unpainted armies)!
@@terraneaux don't know how it is where you are, but here there is a lot of people who play all 6 factions. And even the marine players try to be different. There is 5 Night Lord players and each army is built and plays completely differently.
@@paulshaw3907 No, it's all very samey. What's more, where I'm at the players reee the f out if they get beaten by a non-marine army, and talk about how it's broken etc and everyone needs to play marines.
Lorewise it may a good thing that State Troops aren't competetive, because: THEY DIDN'T EXIST AT THE TIME THIS IS SET(in established lore)!!! Which is something they could've embraced when constructing the army list.
Is there somewhere I can read about the history of State Troops? I'm new to Warhammer Fantasy with an Empire Army for Old World and would love to read a bit more about this!
@@diceosaurus On the top of my head: Old Empire Army Books, Warhammer Fantasy roleplay books (including rulebook) and Whfb rulebooks. GW (and their roleplay partners) are pretty consistent in providing timelines within their publications. From Black Library Empire at War provides a more militarily focused impression of the empire's history in snapshots (battles in times roughly equivalent to antiquity, middle ages and renaissance/current) at Liber Necris at least touches on it by covering the Vampire Wars (to a good extend). The former is available as epub and pdf scans of the latter are easy enough to find (long out of publication). Overall there's basically before and after the Great War against Chaos/Magnus the Pious. The Empire as we know it is a product of that and tOW is set before. So it should look rather different, with many important institutions not yet existing (gunnery school, colleges of magic and state troops). Sadly tOW didn't embrace that. It would've been kind of cool as the Empire sort of dodges big parts of the static fantasy worlds trope, with a clear cultural, political, military and technological evolution.
I keep trying to enjoy old world, but every tournament I play in has 4 Terrorgeist. And just monster spam list, and it just ruins the game for several people and list. There just isnt enough tools for monster killing unless you can bring cannons.
@@valheffelfinger6521 nah, 8th had several structural problems from the way it handled magic, to the increase of the number of models needed to play, a FAQ would have done very little to fix it
@@valheffelfinger6521also, I think the most minute interactions from the Old World can be fixed via errata/FAQ. I agree the game is not polished rules wise but it is not dramatically worse than previous editions. As far as games balance goes I think it would be really easy to fix: make lvl 3-4 wizards cast and dispel with a +2 and lvl 1 wizards cast/dispel with a +1 (perhaps give each lvl of wizardry a +3’’ to dispel). The other thing I’d change is how combined profiles for mounted monsters work. Just make it so if you take a dragon your character must use the dragon’s armor save (it gets the wounds and toughness so why not armor? You are targeting the dragon not the tiny guy on the saddle…). As for infantry there are quite a few ways to make it work better although the problem, I find, is that cavalry was buffed to the gills more than infantry was made weaker (it was, if you think of 8th but not if you think of prior editions)
The way to deal with linehammer in the rules is to actually give some sort of bonus to units that charge ranked up into an enemy unit. EG. My unit is 5 ranks deep and charges yours, yours is 3 ranks deep - if we are both regular infantry I gain an additional +2 combat res for charging on top of my rank bonus and having 2 more ranks than you. Cap it at like +4 combat res to stop "column hammer" being a thing and it should go some wy to representing the scissors of a ranked up unit piling into a thin line of opposing infantry
@@michaciemniewski9791 umm nope? there are no special tasks to complete or areas to hold, just who racked more kill points at the end, with bonus killpoints for killing certain units, but still, the only way to score is to kill more/better than opponent
@@zandosdwarf-king there are some BUT KILL is so impactful that there is no reason to play it diferently. This is reflected by list building and benefits extremes.
@@That_Rat_Bastrd Yes and no. Area control is fine IF YO can prevent 500 point individual from claiming objectives. In general area cotrol, objective control etc. are very good, tactical scenarios which was proven by other mass battles in previous 10+ years.
Oh the crossover event of the year we love to see it!
Vals comment on “if you buy an airbrush you aren’t casual” is very true. My hobby space cost thousands my airbrush setup costs a grand easily. Thousands in paint sitting on my wall, and 4 TOW armies on the go being built and painted, while adding to and rebasing 7 others from my 32 years of playing and collecting
This guy warhammers
@@patgray5402 Warhammers so hard. 10/10 very bassed.
you arent a casual, you are a cheater.
airbrush aint painting.
@BananenbaumEY OMG YES!!! I tell people that there are people like you out there and they don't believe me. I screencapped this.
@@Stonehorn you can get a great airbrush setup for $200. Few hobbyists need to spend a grand on an airbrush
Would love to see Mordian over on SB as well! Love to see the postivity tabletop creators hanging out
Great talk and the square based collaboration was a brilliant choice. These kinds of talks are why old world is so good.
Thanks for the video gents. As someone who doesn’t play 40k it’s good to hear the comparison. Funny hearing people coming from 40k and AoS saying how well OW works whereas people coming from Fantasy saying how clunky it is ha
Oh, hell yeah! Never expected this! Love both of you guys! ⬛️
Thanks to both of you!
Great content!
I think one of the biggest differences between 40K and Old World, as you picked up on at the end of the video, is that it’s all still a dice game. You can over achieve and you can fluff much easier in Old World than you can in 40K! Love it!
Omg what is this combooo? Lets goo
'... It was in that moment, when all hope had faded, that the games designers at GW Specialist Games, took up WHFB...' *Meta implodes*
Woohoo! Val!!
Val talking about old world 🎉
This is how we grow the game, great show Guys! btw Val for President
The crossover I didn't know I needed so...
I'd wish MG would have let the Chair ask the guest a few questions......
Ahhh, missed an opportunity to have the chair as the thumbnail now 😂
The only meta is the Beastmen Barnyard meta. Cows, Chickens and Pigs ready to take over the farm.
Good stuff, great episode. I heard the mention of a potential rebalance of Old World coming in this episode. That is very exciting for the game.
What you say about reroll is exactly what is so good in 30k , no fucking reroll everywhere
yea im running Warriors of Chaos with 1 daemon prince; 2x 20 man chaos warriors; 3x 5 man chaos knights and 5x 5man marauder horseman painting them in pure warpstone theme with cool glow ,, thinking of just calling them the Warpstone Knights lol
this is great!
I see myself as a Miniature Game Player as a lifestyle. Games Workshop is something i occasionally dip my toes in, but there are plenty of games on the market.
Love the extra old world focus. 40K has lost me
Lets go!
The ultimate crossover!
Hell yeah love the crossover
what a crossover
Lets gooooo
Excellent video gents.
Went from Meta to memory lane. Old World got me on the tabletop gaming finally and I am loving it. Mortuary Cults all the way.
We should introduce Mordian Glory's chair to Val's chair.
On the topic of the current state of the Empire, my only real gripe right now is even in a game of infantry, my state troops don’t feel like professional soldiers, they die in droves and have ok static combat res, but peasants can hold the line far better with the same combat res and armor save in an army that typically doesn’t have a crucial backline. And just as a general note; BS shooting just feels bad.
Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
TLDR: If State troops felt like professional soldiers, it would go a long way toward an overall improvement to the Empire.
I agree completely.
If they can't have point deductions, at the very least they need more "oumph" with regards to special rules.
Drilled, Veteran, Shieldwall, different (the old) detachment rules...
All these of these are valid additions that would make them more "professional" without disrupting balance or gameplay. In fact, I'd argue it would enhance the tactics of the game.
🦑🦑🦑🦑🦑🦑🤙👍 Welcome to Heffelfinger Glory!
MY competetive group plays either 1. gunlines (cannons+steam tank.), 2. MSU (like skins spam or elven skirmishing, hitting on 2+ archer units) or monsters. There is one reason why it polarized that fast. Scoring system or rather lack of one. You can play points deny with monsters or MSU (when You get very little for killing a 5 men skirmishing unit for example) or something to counter monsters. Like gunlines. With existing wording You can only hide from cannon balls behind impassible terrain like rocks etc. so monsters start being taken out turn 1. The idea is that You loose a dragon turn 1/2 and then another elite monster turn 3 and You start combat with -500 points. Things get even worse when You play over 2k when You can get not 3 but 6 cannons!
One more way to play point deny game is to field a 500+ point units of 30-50 models You will not have enough time to kill. Or You can heal up on the way.
Khemri plays huge infantry, unkillable blocks + monsters. Dwarfs plays gunlines, Empire plays gunlines and MSU (guns + small units), Lizardmen plays MSU+monsters, elves plays MSU, Chaos plays MSU+monster... This does not look fun. I always liked a combined arms list but I see it will not work... Too many cannons for my monsters to survive, too many small targets for my units to kill...
which army do you play?
@@ThePaintedHope Chorfs!
IM PRINTING AN EMPIRE GUNLINE RIGHT NOW LETS GOOOOOOO
Holy shit it's Val 🤩
56:57 had a tournament with my bret exiles list. 2 cannons 2 trebuchets mostly Foot Knights and archers. First two games all 4 war machines did 0 wounds total or destroyed themselves. On the 3rd and final game I tabled my opponet by turn 2 with artillery. Thats warhammer for ya lol
Val you an I quit 40k for the same reason I sold my looong time collection of dkok was painful but worth it. Switching up to the skaven very painful but worth it
Is this a crossover episode?!
This whole interview highlights why i just don't want to go to tournaments anymore. Themed events are the only thing that interests me for games in group settings.
I don’t know what highlighted it for you, they were clear the tournament scene is awesome
@@Stonehorn And you'll probably never get it, no matter what the explanation is. People that are really focused on competitive play don't ever see how how it leads to burn out for the majority of players. TOW isn't there yet because its still new, but it will get there soon enough.
@@briarsandbantams to each their own. Play the way you have fun
For the infantry issue, one way to fix that may be either bringing back supporting attacks or step up.
Killing calvary.jpeg
@@CyrodiilCome Obviously not going back all the way to 9th. But then again cavalry shouldn't be able to just frontally charge a big block of infantry and expect to win.
I did not recognise Val without a shit hat on
Hey!
I recognised him from the opening dance moves
*The* Val Heffelfinger!?
The one and only
Your friend got Boom Town from Mad Max :)
Yes, a TOW channel crossover!
"The army composition is incredibly permissive"
Mothsrducker they destroyed my whole list! No chariots in core? Gorebeast chariot in rate?? NO BLOOD LETTERS???
My whole collection is out.
I wish I could play my biker gang chaos bastards.
I was wondering if y’all knew each other lol
What do you think about 9th age ? A lots of people play in my area , and there a new version right now , v3
The only bad thing about 9th age and many other games, is that it's not Warhammer.
I got so much vitriol for pointing out in groups that maybe, just maybe, Fighting Rank / LineHammer was going to be a thing back in January. People were losing their minds. _"It'll NEVER be a thing! If you think it will you're an idiot who have never played the game! It'll NEVER work! It can't be done!"_ 😂 Boy, those voices sure got awfully quiet, didn't they? I love TOW, but it's probably the one rule I'd change ever so slightly.
Once drilled was clarified I think is what has facilitated this issue. We use a fair amount of terrain, and you would never be able to navigate a huge line without drilled. However being able to throw an extra five guys around really changed the dynamic.
@@MrPaxy69 Ah, that was another thing I got flak for: Knowing how Drilled was supposed to work from Day 1 (same as it had worked for decades in Warhammer: Ancient Battles prior, so not really that much of an achievement). So glad we're in a much better place now with much less angry screaming. I don't know if those people just left the game. Or if they're silently eating crow. In any case, I hope everyone is having fun with the game. I know I am.
Even with drilled, I think linehammer is pretty situational. Not saying it doesn't happen but I've yet to see anyone attempt to truly make it their central strategy. And we were genuinely talking about linehammer potential when the first rules almanac dropped like last summer
Being able to get attacks out of a line is the only thing that makes any infantry even slightly relevant though I feel. Its already a game of Swiftstride units running wild and I feel that gets even worse if you can't reform super wide to try to get some attacks back when 10 blood knights or a dragon run into you.
@@shamhownow infantry especially suffers when a dragon just challenges you. If you don’t have a static res above 5, then you are screwed.
I play vibes. Ngl. Like when I was playing against Chorfs with my troll tide of orcs He shot me with fire pikes/ melee me with them. I assumed they had flame attacks (they don't) so my opponent corrected me. I said "Nah that makes no sense that a FIRE pike doesnt have flame attacks" and house ruled them they did. Even if it meant my army just didn't have saves. Got out of the 40k scene into AoS and Conquest to avoid competive play
👍👍
It was the lack of character choices that turned me away from AoS (besides blowing up my favorite universe . Ahem, sorry). I love building CHARACTERS. Unique and cool leaders with their own backgrounds and equipment. I love ToW and I haven't played a game yet (my buddies are purists and refuse to field unpainted armies)!
Agreed. Even in the legacy factions there's options to build unique characters.
Same reason I like the Horus Heresy, all the options.
@@paulshaw3907 Except everyone plays marines, it's monotonous.
@@terraneaux don't know how it is where you are, but here there is a lot of people who play all 6 factions. And even the marine players try to be different. There is 5 Night Lord players and each army is built and plays completely differently.
@@paulshaw3907 No, it's all very samey. What's more, where I'm at the players reee the f out if they get beaten by a non-marine army, and talk about how it's broken etc and everyone needs to play marines.
Trying to sell my 5 40k armies on ebay and taxes seem like they're going to be a complete nightmare.
Is list shaming a thing now with tabletop gaming?
Lorewise it may a good thing that State Troops aren't competetive, because:
THEY DIDN'T EXIST AT THE TIME THIS IS SET(in established lore)!!! Which is something they could've embraced when constructing the army list.
Is there somewhere I can read about the history of State Troops? I'm new to Warhammer Fantasy with an Empire Army for Old World and would love to read a bit more about this!
@@diceosaurus On the top of my head:
Old Empire Army Books, Warhammer Fantasy roleplay books (including rulebook) and Whfb rulebooks. GW (and their roleplay partners) are pretty consistent in providing timelines within their publications.
From Black Library Empire at War provides a more militarily focused impression of the empire's history in snapshots (battles in times roughly equivalent to antiquity, middle ages and renaissance/current) at Liber Necris at least touches on it by covering the Vampire Wars (to a good extend). The former is available as epub and pdf scans of the latter are easy enough to find (long out of publication).
Overall there's basically before and after the Great War against Chaos/Magnus the Pious. The Empire as we know it is a product of that and tOW is set before. So it should look rather different, with many important institutions not yet existing (gunnery school, colleges of magic and state troops). Sadly tOW didn't embrace that. It would've been kind of cool as the Empire sort of dodges big parts of the static fantasy worlds trope, with a clear cultural, political, military and technological evolution.
Can't wait to see a Square Based vs Mordian Glory battle report 💪
Why I loved 8th, 5 games and quit Warhammer
I keep trying to enjoy old world, but every tournament I play in has 4 Terrorgeist. And just monster spam list, and it just ruins the game for several people and list. There just isnt enough tools for monster killing unless you can bring cannons.
Val would be an alright chap if he didn’t love 8th edition so much… 😅
You could fix 8th in 5 sentences of errata. TOW not so much
@@valheffelfinger6521 nah, 8th had several structural problems from the way it handled magic, to the increase of the number of models needed to play, a FAQ would have done very little to fix it
@@valheffelfinger6521also, I think the most minute interactions from the Old World can be fixed via errata/FAQ. I agree the game is not polished rules wise but it is not dramatically worse than previous editions. As far as games balance goes I think it would be really easy to fix: make lvl 3-4 wizards cast and dispel with a +2 and lvl 1 wizards cast/dispel with a +1 (perhaps give each lvl of wizardry a +3’’ to dispel). The other thing I’d change is how combined profiles for mounted monsters work. Just make it so if you take a dragon your character must use the dragon’s armor save (it gets the wounds and toughness so why not armor? You are targeting the dragon not the tiny guy on the saddle…). As for infantry there are quite a few ways to make it work better although the problem, I find, is that cavalry was buffed to the gills more than infantry was made weaker (it was, if you think of 8th but not if you think of prior editions)
ugh why do we gotta have a meta
The way to deal with linehammer in the rules is to actually give some sort of bonus to units that charge ranked up into an enemy unit. EG. My unit is 5 ranks deep and charges yours, yours is 3 ranks deep - if we are both regular infantry I gain an additional +2 combat res for charging on top of my rank bonus and having 2 more ranks than you. Cap it at like +4 combat res to stop "column hammer" being a thing and it should go some wy to representing the scissors of a ranked up unit piling into a thin line of opposing infantry
I do hope WHTOW doesn’t become uber competitive like 40k. It ain’t the game to emulate.
IMO, just having no objectives and counting who killed more points is boring mission design
@@zandosdwarf-king it is and it is reflected in list building. Either point denile or MSU... and spam like gunlines.
@@michaciemniewski9791 umm nope? there are no special tasks to complete or areas to hold, just who racked more kill points at the end, with bonus killpoints for killing certain units, but still, the only way to score is to kill more/better than opponent
@@zandosdwarf-king there are some BUT KILL is so impactful that there is no reason to play it diferently. This is reflected by list building and benefits extremes.
Still a huge improvement over 'stand in the circle for 6 turns' imho
@@That_Rat_Bastrd Yes and no. Area control is fine IF YO can prevent 500 point individual from claiming objectives. In general area cotrol, objective control etc. are very good, tactical scenarios which was proven by other mass battles in previous 10+ years.