Get some time on the job kid
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- Another video in the Detroit on Fire series by @constanceyork
Firefighters in Detroit talk about the seniority system in Detroit and how it works for them.
They speak about their first days on the job and the senior men and women who made them what they are- members of one of the greatest fire departments in the world.
Please check out my Facebook page- Detroit on Fire.
Thanks for watching and sharing.
To all the critics of experience and seniority based promotions- feel free to send us the links to your fires- especially suburban and volunteer, so we can compare them with Detroit.
I retired from a very large very fast-paced county jurisdiction on the East Coast. Our department also promoted by seniority. Makes a huge difference. There were plenty of younger guys who did well at taking tests, because they knew how to study. Knowing how to study is very different and knowing how to fight fire
Just like military, there are formal leaders and then there are informal leaders who troops actually listen to and respect if the formal leaders are incompetent
@@scottsheridan278 too bad the FD don't recognize military experience as experience.
One of the best videos I have seen in a long time! I am a retired fire captain and will agree that we must save seniority as being the factor for promotions!!! It is frightening when seeing some of the fir personnel that is currently being promoted into positions in our nation's fire departments. We are promoting textbook educated people. We have individuals in the fire service want to skip certain positions and jump to other positions...with little to no experience!!!
Seniority rules, for the most part. Experience is relative, for the most part. Education and training, well, that cannot make up for a lack of experience. Firefighting is unlike any other life, you get out of it what you put into it. The right combination of experience, training and education, along with the ability to lead goes a long way in the making of a good fire officer. But experience is still where it's at. A 5 year firefighter at DFD has more experience than a 5 year firefighter at the Iron Mountain Fire Department. That doesn't make them any less qualified to be an officer. Like I said, experience is relative. Leadership is an ability that not everyone is capable of and maybe it can be learned, but typically it is a combination of all of what I mentioned above and at the end of the day, it is experience over seniority that matters to me.
Not to be super critical of the way they do their promotions but there is a reason why they're the only city that still promotes based solely off of seniority and its an archaic practice. In boston from day one you were told that there every department is broken down into thirds. The top 3rd are the people who are go getters doing everything they can do to better themselves. The middle third does the job well and whats required of them and then the bottom third are the ones who collect a pay check and do the bare minimum. There are plenty of people on the fire department who have 25-30 years on the job but repeated "year 1" every year. And luckily for the bottom third guys they are able to be covered/carried by there crew and fly under the radar. We realized that character, training and experience is way more important in an officer then being awarded rank for simply showing up to work. Seniority is important and means you've seen a wide variety of calls but it doesn't mean your a leader.
Isn't "character" a bit subjective?
Constance York It absolutely is. If you have a bad attitude or not a good representation of your department then why be rewarded. It’s just a piece to the overall puzzle of being a leader. But the argument of we go to all sorts of fires so we know what’s best isn’t a valid one. There’s departments all over this country taking in 2-3+ fires in occupied dwellings a day and are by no means incompetent when compared to Detroit. Detroit burns and everyone knows it. But no one is trying to duplicate Detroit tactically or even SOP/SOG wise when operating on the fire ground. They’re their own breed and there’s nothing wrong with that. But the other major cities found better results in not using solely seniority.
@@hihfty I in no way intended to imply that Detroit's seniority system works for every department, but as someone who has watched Detroit do it- and then how many suburban departments do it- I would say that there are far more incompetent inexperienced departments out there than there are bad leaders in very busy departments. Just the tactics alone are night and day. In busy departments- firefighting becomes almost second nature- so even a "bad" boss- can do it it better. Where in a lot of slower cities- they often seem either too afraid to go in or just plain don't know what to do. That's just how I see it- literally. But I know in a department that gets 5 -15 fires a year- that's probably not going to work as a promotional system. But if you are in a slower department and all 20 of your guys are leader material- then maybe ask why not. Because if your kid is trapped in a house fire- it's going to be the firefighter that saves him- not the chief standing outside.
@@constanceyork I agree with everything you said. The slower departments are disadvantaged due to the lack of repetitions and muscle memory. Its tough when your town/city gets 15 fires a year and your lucky enough to have a few land on your shift. In those departments senior guys could be a godsend as long as they aren't "retired on the job". You produced a great video and it was great to see how similar and dissimilar departments can be. The Detroit guys really nailed the fact that every fire you have to learn what was good and wasn't good and then move forward. Great work.
Detroit big dogs!!! Respect.
Good leaders take more blame and less credit.great leaders never put you up to something,they wouldn't do themselves.
My dept has, what I think , is the best of both worlds, when it comes to promotions. There is a test, and after the scores are determined, seniority points are added related to time on the job. You receive .4 points per year up to and maximizing out at 20 years. So if 2 guys write the same paper, the added seniority points, will always put the senior guy in front. The points max out at 8 (.4 x 20 )
Great job Constance!! It’s great seeing all the guys (and Shannon!)! Brings back great memories!! DFD4Life!!
There is a volunteer department near me who’s chief got off probation and made chief 2 months later. Terrible! Dangerous. Has NO clue. NO clue at all. NONE.
NorthWest Firefighter yard breathers !!!
paul D ROTFL LOL 🤣
Adam Brady sorry to hear that Adam! Yeah I bet your “chief” just cares about power and not about you, your fellow firefighters nor the people they serve!
I know a certain 21 year old captain who doesn't even have national fire school. It's everywhere
You can't compare volunteer fireman's to pay professionals a lot of them are good but take it to the fire scene piecemeal. Professional fire departments to get there within 3 to 4 minutes five engines two ladders a rescue and a battalion or a deputy. Fires not waiting for guys to arrive. I saw a fire down here in South Jersey where I live now garage fire all they had to do is teepee cut in the garage door and open a roof above the fire instead it went across the whole cockloft and lost the whole house. You can't get in close to put it out if you don't vent. Engine company will take a beating with no ventilation I know I was on an engine for 11 years then transfer to the ladder
Thank You someone finally said it!!!!
Give me experience every time, school begins after the classroom.
Awesome video keep that seniority intact ladies and gentlemen.
Thank you!
Experience and exposure comes with frequency. Seniority is important but is not the deciding factor in promotions.
Training, mentoring, education, development and evaluation are all factors needed to get leadership in the right spots. There is no sound “way” to find the right fit 100% of the time but seniority is not the soul process. The military and Fortune 50-500 organizations across the spectrum have proven this fact.
Detroit Fire Department - Get Some Time On The Job Kid
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37:30 Nailed it, sad to say.
As retired fire Captain from a small town fire department in the northeast. The promotional system changed a couple of times and the worst system was by majority vote! Terrible system just looking to injure firefighters or worse!! Most if not all of the best mentors in my career had years of experience.
Well said and we’ll put together! Stay safe and listen to the guys who have done! BFD local 282
I was a firefighter for 25 years in North Jersey Professional. After five years you can take any promotion test guys are book smart getting promoted over senior men. I hope it doesn't happen to you guys in Detroit because I'm not taking orders from a guy who doesn't have the experience and who wasn't an aggressive firefighter when he was a firefighter. I'm sure you got outstanding firefighters who are outstanding , outstanding in the street. I never had any use for those guys when they got promoted thank God the majority of our department was aggressive professional appointment. But you know who those guys are and they certainly should not be officers
Sounds like your department needs to increase the minimum requirements. You can't even test for captain here on my job in mass unless you have 20 years minimum and for Lt its 10 years.
Capt Bryan emenecker out of the Camden city FD said it best about the outstanding firefighters 😂. The captain is now retired but the yard breathers are still breathing that fresh air.
Work hard, Have fun, stay safe......
Tiny was spot on about flash over man it's crazy to see up close and personal Detroit fd knows fire
It’s like black ink coming down your facepiece. Thought the same thing when he said that.
I love this, I have 25 years in the fire service but where I work we do not have the fire volume to support this kind of system though. It’s a shame somebody decided to pull it apart in Detroit though.
Love the content !!!!!
Seniority should be the ONLY WAY people should promote. Give me street smart over book smart ANYDAY!!
Not fully true. Experience and quantity of time arent the same thing. You have some 20 year probies walking around in bunker gear.
Seniority absolutely does not qualify you to lead a company into a fire. In city fire departments there are many that got this job, just to get a city job, they took every test they could and finally got on. They will spend their career doing just enough to not get fired or just to get by, so seniority only based promotions is pretty ridiculous. There should definitely be a minimum amount of time on before being able to take a promotional test though.
@@Incindio13 passing a promotional test also does not qualify you to lead a company into a fire. Obviously, nothing is fool proof, but in Detroit there aren't "many" who do just enough to get by- and EVERYBODY knows who they are. So- a couple things will happen- 1. the firefighters will call that person out and they will either change, leave, or hide by going off on injury (most-likely legitimate since they all get injured and wear out shoulders, etc) or 2. they will make boss-and nobody will listen to them at fires and they'll retire as soon as they can, or 3 they will let the guys do their jobs and make few decisions. There isn't a lot of yelling orders at fires. Most guys know what to do- and do it. Guys aren't going to risk their lives listening to bad orders and there is always more than one "boss" on a fire scene. This system works for Detroit, but that doesn't mean it works for every department.
Michael Perkins you need education and experience. Both are important.
You get a C for showing up to work. 15 times 0 equals 0. Seniority should have a role, but not a majority. In our department you get points added to your test score for experience. You also get preference if scores come out even with others with less experience. Competition breeds excellence, and promotion through ONLY seniority breeds twiddling your thumbs until it’s “your turn”. Like other things, a balanced and methodical approach is a wise one.
Experience does matter and seniority but using the sports analogy the best quarterbacks don’t necessarily make the best coaches! Bellicheck never even played football! Some great football players have turned into horrible coaches, same goes for fireman. I’ve seen guys who have 20 years on and be the worst officers ever! I’ve seen guys with 5 years on be the best officers.
Seniority and experience is not an accurate predictor of being a good officer. Use seniority to determine your vacation, your seat at the table, etc. not determine officers.
You nailed it sir! the only thing i would add to that is the seat position on the truck such as OV man, vent, etc.
Well said , not to mention seniority means fat and lazy in most departments I’m joking but it’s true lol let’s give the promotion to biggest belly
How well would Bellecheck do on the field with 10 secs left in a tied game? How well would he PERFORM ON THE FIELD? That's the difference. These men do it so much it becomes instinct and training on the job- something Bellecheck can't FEEL on the sidelines. Put him in an actual game. I've seen so many fires myself (stopped counting after 150) - that I also know what to do- if I was barking orders at people. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't die if I went in and tried to do it myself. Knowing what to do- and DOING it are two different things.
@@derekkoster7635 Then they're not training enough. In Detroit, they get 25 years of on the job training before being in charge of other people's lives. If your guys are fat and lazy than start training them everyday. Or put their fat and lazy ass in a hot fire and let them sweat it out. If the boss starts standing outside after 5 years on the job- they have essentially stopped training- in a lot of ways. I wouldn't want some fat fucker standing outside in charge of whether I live or die.
The wisdom gets real at the 32min mark
Besides fire experience and job savvy........you need that inner thing that is acquired through actual exposure to numerous fire and other hazardous incidents.........confidence to perform your job as a leader......NOT.....what you read in books or received preference in promotions through failed social experiments or misguided political interference in the promotion process. Seniority is an important ingredient towards promotion, but......not the only important one. A mix of seniority, written promotion exam competence, oral participation in realistic problem solving, and an oral interview to determine the ability to communicate clearly is the most successful process to achieve the desired results in creating promotions in the fire service. As the candidates move up to the higher ranks, more oral testing and less dependence on seniority is then desirable.
Great video however it seems to paint a picture of 2 extremes. 1) seniority and experience is everything 2) a testing system gets only a 5 year book worm with no experience.
Yes seniority and experience is extremely important and severely undervalued in many fire departments however systems that test for promotions can build years of experience necessary to take the test and/or additional credit per year of experience. Seniority can even count as a tie breaker.
In most testing departments you need a certain amount of time in each rank before having the opportunity to test. Also not everyone is best suited in the next rank. At the end of the day you need good experienced people in every rank. Seniority nor testing alone can guarantee that
If you get hurt, I’m gonna get hurt 🙄. Okay 👌🏻
Can’t tell you how many times the senior guy told the boss what to do...and that’s when it gets scary
I think that it depends on the type of department and the amount of action. A city like Detroit, absolutely don't change it.. However if you go out to the burbs who see 1 fire a year.. Does the "experience" really make sense...
Yes, Detroit is different, because they get way more fires and if you listen, a few people did say "In Detroit," Like for instance one guy said - "Seniority mean experience- in Detroit." Which is absolutely true. There is no way you can be on the job in Detroit and not get fires- even if you're a slacker. And on that note- slackers will get called out. BUT- even in the suburbs- experience still matters a lot and I'll tell you why I think so. Because every fire is different and I can't even begin to tell you how many times I have heard DETROIT firefighters say at a fire - wow- I've never seen that before. There is no way you can teach that in a book- so even having one more fire than someone else matters- especially if you went inside. If guys want to be promoted, but lack experience maybe they should ask if they can ride with busier departments before they take that test. I wouldn't want someone's property- let alone their life- in my hands, just because I took a few more classes. It's on the individual to be humble enough to realize whether they are actually ready for that responsibility and are able to make snap judgements in the spur of the moment- with lives on the line. It damn sure shouldn't just be for the pay and title. Just my two cents.
Even the best firefighter does not guarantee a good captain. A system only based on seniority gets people in the wrong spots.
My first call was a structure fire as well . It turned into a surround and dround but theres so much unknown on the way there adrenaline out of this world.
Take my tests for DFD next month can’t wait
Good luck!
Did you start the academy yet?
Id like too have a Detroit fire dept t-shirt
Smaller departments are even worse. Those promotions operate on a different format. No matter how people move up, as long as they put in the effort to be a true student of the Fire Service, people can stay alive. Stay Safe.
Constance do an
Interview with Mark Taylor E33 on his close call fire where he was badly burned . I saw a bunch of photos of him in this video , he’s a great FF and a great guy , maybe misunderstood my some people though lol
I did interview him for Fire Engineering magazine.
www.fireengineering.com/firefighting/postcard-from-detroit-trapped-in-a-collapse/?fbclid=IwAR32s8Gyixvm6wW3M0SS7RnYbs8gb-VpV96MNfbLO5d_6Mj0HOajxw2sAgI
Sgt? What does a Sgt do in a fire service? Excellent video! I agree 100 percent. I am on my 21 year in the service and it’s true. You get a guy who has been there 5 years writing his test to be captain! It ain’t right. Just ain’t right.
In Detroit, everything a deckie does, but he gets to ride in the front seat.
Constance York thanks. I have to look up the term Deckie. We don’t have the term here. Here the engineer drives and the captain sits up front in the captains seat. From what I see in this video is people get promoted from seniority and senior men get positions based on that. Which is better I guess. You seem to have less captains and more Sgts and Lts. Here any idiot that can pass the test and the interview can be a Capt. But that doesn’t get the person any respect. Especially if they are dangerous.
Wonderful documentary. One question though. What is the rank of sergeant equivalent to in most other fire departments?
My guess is about 15 less years fighting fire and hundreds less fires. But more school, tests and books. Problem is, in the 300 or so fires I've seen, you would not believe how many times I've heard from seasoned firefighters- "I've never seen that before!" That's another reason why experience matters.
@@constanceyork - One month as a firefighter in Detroit will have more experience and knowledge than most 20+ year FF's in the burbs...
There's should be no chiefs of other officer if a group of firefighter cant put out a fire
Unfortunately not the department I work for , screwed a lot of guys...
or make sure your dad is the mayor of the city.Worked on a dept for 17 years and not once did i see these 4 guys with a turnout coat on.
I don't care what you read in a book until you actually do it you learn nothing.because out here in the real world nothing is anything like what you read.
I hope this was the academy class, because you should never be an entry ff without minimum ilof having FF1
n Detroit, the trial firefighter goes in first. I think that's the case in most urban big city departments.
Yeah that's the NFPA standards across the country. I did enjoy the video. Retired ff/paramedic from Baltimore.
... I never heard of seniority based promotions in the career fire service.
In Chicago, the oral exam seems to be where the fix is in....some guys buy the written test from the preachers that are given the test beforehand. Seniority is such a small part and we end up with a lot of bosses that have no fire experience and really believe they are the 1st to know what they "know". We also play with race and gender.
My crew is saltier then the Pacific Ocean.... I’m on the most senior crew at my dept.... we just got a boot finally again. It’s fun to play with him and make him make coffee. More coffee boot!!!
John Holtz I have 81 years of experience on my heavy rescue. Very fortunate.