the manufacturer's marking 陸軍漢陽兵工廠製 陸軍 = Army 漢陽 = Han Yang (location) 兵工廠 = arsenal 製 = made made by army Han Yang arsenal the word on the cap is 自 = Self (I think they want to denote 自動, which means "move by itself" or auto) 普 = Normal
But how do you remember all the symbols? We have what 26 letters we put together. I don't understand how you can possibly have a different symbol for every word. That's one language you want to know from birth I think.
There’s only less than 13 of those rifles today. Obviously it would be sold at such a price. Those are the legit ones, they dont manufacture them anymore.
Liu suffered cerebral hemorrhage from that stroke, and never recover, not died right away but passed away in 1929. He was always getting pushed by a few warlords in China, so after he was in hospital, they just tried everything to ruin his works. He was from my hometown(and sort of related), one of my great-grandmother come from that family, so I've heard of him, I was only told he was more like a old school professor than a general.
"China would be much better off today" Up for debate, we are unable to tell if the corruption would be fixed, if China continued as it was, it would rival Italy for corruption in Government. As for the death toll, the possible purges conducted out of paranoia wouldn't rival that of Mao's death tolls but would reach the millions for sure. As for industrializing the Nation, it would be a slow process assuming the US stayed out of assisting China rebuild and China would remain a 3rd World Country today.
@Yingdi Xu The mandate of heaven really fucked china up in the end. It's amazing an empire with succession laws of basically 'if you're strong enough to seize power then you're emperor' survived.
The Liu as way was ahead of his time, and the design isn't some copy like many other nations attempting to start. I'm curious if Liu created anymore gun designs such as pistols.
+V Guyver It is unlikely that he would have been aware of some of the german and Hungarian prototypes out around that time right? The system seems more akin to some 20s and 30s designs, but even most of those weren't really good. Can you imagine something similar happening today? Like if apple started producing laser guns for China today decades ahead of the states lol.
Before having seen anything of the video, I can already say "What a goddamn beautiful firearm". The dark wood, th old-style upper, the sights... Stunning :)
Except for the open area behind the receiver, I agree. They really should have slapped a dust cover on that; it would have prevented some potential malfunctions and made it better looking.
Hey Ian!I have submitted a Chinese subtitle for the video,which I believe is 100% correct on meaning,but fail to reproduce your unique speaking habit and rhyme,that's just too hard for me. In fact,the most parts of the subtitle have been finished months ago.However,I'm a senior in highschool.In Taiwan,it means that I could have barely time to do what I want to do and what I think is important to do. My English listening and reading abilities is far beyond the average degree of Taiwanese highschool student,while my writing ability isn't remarkable so my grammar might be very weird. As the first self-loading rifle design by Chinese,General Liu's SLR is definitely an interesting piece of Modern Chinese History.It's simply named '自裝槍' because there wasn't any other self-loading rifle had been recognized by Chinese! 1916 is the start of the warlord age,and General Liu's losing control on Han Yang Arsenal was largely because his relationship with the warlords who's occupying Han Yang(Wu Pei Fu and Cao Kun)wasn't very well. A source of information said Liu had submit the rifle design to the rifle trial of U.S. Army in 1918.It also mentions that Julian Hatcher's "Hatcher's Notebook" have contents about his meeting with General Liu. Even if the SLR had started production successfully,China didn't have the ability to produce the material needed for the self-loading rifle manufacture at that time.It means that the SLR would only be sent to the elite troops of the warlord who was controlling arsenal,instead of National Revolutionary Army or the Northern Government. Well,once NRA took over Han Yang in 1926,the SLR might have the chance to become a main rifle in Second Sino-Japanese War and China Civil War.If they had been captured by PRC,they would have a chance to show up in Korean War! There is no denying that Liu's SLR has the potential to develope into a great self-loading rifle design.The locking mechanism is similar to Mannlicher 1886/1888 because there were copies of them had been manufacturing in China since Ching Dynasty.It seems that the SLR can easily adopt the bolt design of Mannlicher 1895,getting rid of the durability problem. The muzzle cup system of SLR is very likely to be much more reliable than Bang rifle,since it directly use the blowing power of the firing instead of redirecting them to push the piston.There's a lot to say,but I'm a little bit lazy to do that... General Liu's another work is the copy of Browning M1917,which was produce in Han Yang Arsenal after 1921. It's a shame that most of the Chinese people still believe that the first self-loading rifle in China is Garand,another little number of them know ZH-29,hardly anybody have heard of Liu's Rifle. Let the forgotten designer and rifle never be forgotten,that's the reason why I made the subtitle.
If it exists, I would love to see a report from Pratt & Whitney regarding what they thought of the rifle. Not as a manufacturing project, but as a practical battlefield weapon
@@1978garfield Not anti-gun, but more accurately pro-"strict rules on getting and owning a gun". I've lived in both CT and MA and know many people who have gone through the process and happily own handguns and long guns.
I have always loved the 1st few generation of semi autos(rifles and pistols). All of the different designs, concepts and ideas has always intrested me.
Pratt and Whitney Tool is an entirely different company from the famous Pratt and Whitney Aircraft engine maker. Pratt and Whitney Aircraft licensed the name Pratt and Whitney from the well known toolmaker when they began making engines on the 1920’s. Pratt and Whitney Tool made some pretty big machine tools, including a 12x30” lathe as recently as the 60s. They still exist in Hartford but they now stick to fine measurement tools.
Hi Ian just wanna say thank you for all the good and rare information you shared with us. your pronunciation of the chinese arsenal names are almost perfect already. I easily understood them: "Han yang" and "gong xian". around 8:00 in the video while showing the semi-auto / single shot switch, the characters on the switch shows as 自 (short form of 自動, which means automatic. character 自 itself means self) and 普(short form of 普通, which means normal) . despite the rifle itself has semi-auto and single shot releasing modes, the markings actually means "auto" and "normal". he could have chosen another character 半 which refers to semi. this still does make sense as back in 1910s there isn't any infantry rifles that has full automatic mode in the chinese market so that I guess mark it as "automatic" is still acceptable. in addition, they probably treated bolt action single shot rifles as common and normal , while semi-auto rifles were something new and fancy, thus mark single shot mode as "normal" also makes sense. I actually wonder if there could be any other rifle model that marks the firing mode same way as this general liu's. probably very low possibility as most of the later chinese guns were marked with symbols or characters that directly translates to single, semi, and auto to avoid confusion between semi-auto and auto.
Have to appreciate the high quality of machine work that went into building this rifle, it looks better than some rifles that were built many decades later and even today.
The first marking on the muzzle cap：“自” directly translates into "by one's self", which can be interpreted as an abbreviation for “自动”---"automatic", which is what semiautomatic used to be called before fully automatic existed. The second marking on the muzzle cap: "普" is an abbreviated form of "普通" which means "regular". Given how most other rifles functioned back then, "regular" refers to a bolt action firing mode.
Looks to be a VERY well thought out rifle. Looks no more complicated to strip and clean than a modern assault rifle (although the only one I'm familiar with is the SA80-A2, the nice H&K reworked model), maybe with the exception of the recoil spring removal. Should be an easy conversion to a thumb screw type action though. Regarding the locking system, it looks as if were the pin to deform at all then the load would transfer directly onto the bolt body via that nice strong looking material in front of the lever. I'm really REALLY impressed with it to be fair. Looks like a nice idea. I mean, the gas system would be a doddle to clean compared to most. Fitted with a shorter barrel and a longer double stack single feed box magazine this wouldn't have looked out of place into the M14 era.
This rifle is amazing. It's too bad that we werent able to see a further development of this rifle. It's very intuitive and seems very ahead of its time. I wish we could see it fired. i feel blessed we got this chance to see it. The machine work is amazing for essentially a craft rifle... It's also very very close to being an open bolt LMG if you were to get rid of the disconnector...
Thank You very much Forgotten Weapon. I'm Chinese but I didn't know this guy before. The Beiyang Army were really the unsung heroes of Chinese history.
some of the chips used in phones are made in USA, also some of the software is made and exported too, you could argue that software is finely crafted...
Not as of today with Trump's administration in office. If the US tried something like this today, the US would probably put trade tariffs on parts for the gun that are double the price of the gun itself and there would be no profit for the Chinese whatsoever.
Before the Communist Party took over after WWII, Sino-American relations were pretty good and they were close allies in World War II, but unfortunately the Communists took over so the West rejected China from that point onwards, hence history between the West and China.
@@stargate12345678 eh, not entirely. The US actually told Mao to finish his civil war in 1949, but by the time Mao got all the troops and transport in place, this idiot by the name of Kim invaded south Korea and scared the US that communism was trying to take over the world. And that scare led the US to tell Mao that he could invade Taiwan only after going through the Seventh Fleet.
As a machinist I marvel at the amount of work it would take to make such a complex mechanism. Great video thanks. I'd like to see more artillery and big guns
Someone may have noted this, but the Pratt & Whitney mentioned here is not the aircraft engine company. The engine company was founded in the 1920s by engineers who had left Curtiss-Wright aircraft. The engineers built a radial engine to meet a Navy requirement. When the Navy testers looked at the engine they weren't sure who built it. They saw the Pratt & Whitney logo on the engine castings and wrote "built by Pratt & Whitney". The engineers had contracted Pratt & Whitney Manufacturing to build parts of the engine for them. They left well enough alone and Pratt & Whitney Aircraft was born. Pratt & Whitney Manufacturing has a long history of building machine tools. General Liu got world class machine tools for his rifle when he went to P&W. Had things worked out better, China would have had one of the best arsenals in the world in 1914.
Hey lan, it's necessary to mention that the ship which carried the manufacturing instruments for General Liu rifle sunk on the way back to China, which was a huge blow for Liu. That's why he suffered stroke and never recovered. After he passed away, there was no one knew how to produce Liu's Rifle and the instruments in China were used to produce other weapons. This accident was a great loss for Chinese military industry.
Their is also a Pratt and Whitney in Alabama. I believe it started life around Eli Whitney's cotton gin. Their was a building still standing, just a few years ago that had a Pratt and Whitney carriage company sign still on the front. This is located in Prattville Alabama. I wonder if Daniel Pratt had anything to do with the name of the town... lol.
September 8, 1916 Army Materiel Command’s test in Nan-Yuan Proving Grounds on the new rifle by General Liu Qing-En, referred to as the self-loading rifle (‘SLR’) Details of the SLR are as follows:- Caliber - 7.9mm Length - 703.1mm Muzzle Velocity - 780m/s Weight - 5kg with bayonet attached Firing rate - 50 rounds/minute Magazine capacity - 6 round clip internal magazine The report by Army Materiel Command on the test-firing of Chief Superintendent Liu’s SLR goes on to describe the major parts of the SLR (Report also details the test-firing of an anti- aircraft machine gun modeled on the Danish Madsen gun) as follows:- i) Muzzle and gas regulator ii) Barrel and Receiver (sliding block) iii) Boltcarrier iv) Operating mechanism (piston, cocking piece, driving spring & buffer spring) The SLR is heavier than the average infantry rifle by 1 catty (Chinese unit of measurement, equivalent to around 604.8 grams during the administration of the Republican government but has been revised by the PRC government to be equivalent to 500 grams) and consist of a total of 94 parts. Briefly, the self loading mechanism uses gas expelled by the cartridge and as the round leaves the barrel, the muzzle gas trap cap (with three holes for adjustment) starts extending forwards triggering the operating mechanism which moves the bolt carrier rearwards extracting and chambering the next round as well as locking the bolt. When all the rounds are expended, the bolt is unlocked and the loading chamber is exposed. If the user wishes to convert the SLR from ‘self-loading’ to ‘manual’ (single shot bolt), he can do so by turning the muzzle gas trap cap clockwise, sealing the cap and seizing the self loading function. During initial trails, an example of the SLR manufactured by the Han Yang Arsenal was tested and the self loading mechanism seized. According to Superintendent Liu, the fault lies with the driving spring which was hand-made due to a lack of machinery at the arsenal and therefore not up to the required tolerances. Following this, an example of the SLR manufactured in America was tested and went through 6 magazine clips with no issues or stoppages. A rough calculation placed the firing rate at 40 rounds per minute based on a magazine clip of 6 rounds. However there were issues with target acquisition and aiming, although recoil is minimal, the ejection action and gas action at the muzzle gas trap cap inadvertently causes the muzzle to climb which cannot be negated as the entire weight of the rifle is supported the firer’s left arm. In addition, due to inconsistencies in the propellants of the cartridges fired by the SLR, stoppages occurred when the bolt was unable to lock or when the driving spring engaged too quickly. Another point to note was the tendency of the sliding block receiver to run into the face of the firer, in particular since most of the firers are used to bolt action rifles with action of length 10cm or less. This was no fault of the design of the SLR but emphasis should be placed upon this during training. Further, during manual fire (bolt action), there were instances of “double feeding”. Otherwise, the SLR had no faults. There has been no developments in this nation’s firearms for sometime now, Superintendent Liu’s effort has been validated both in theory and in practice and the results are promising in the particular the results of the test is impressive. We note that the SLR functions best in repeating fire and although this expends vast amounts of ammunition, there are occasions where this may be called for. September 13, 1916 Minutes of the Meeting of the Army Materiel Command The following were discussed:- i. The SLR is indeed heavier than the standard infantry rifle. ii. Steel needed for production must be imported. iii. The raw material costs per weapon must cost more than 2 Yuan (currency denomination of the then Nationalist Government) over the current infantry rifle. iv. Whether the muzzle gas trap cap will be affected by dust and dirt and whether it can be turned smoothly and effectively in a battlefield situation is something that can only be addressed when the SLR is in general issue. v. What is the bore erosion rate? For example, German made steel is affected by bore erosion after 5,000 rounds. vi. Will the bolt carrier and sliding bolt overheat and seized? vii. The rear of the SLR is exceedingly long, how will target acquisition and aiming be affected? It is resolved that Superintendent Liu conduct further tests at the Officer Cadet School and thereafter modify the SLR accordingly and send them to the infantry unit for field tests along with the requisite manual and instructions. Further, the steel for the manufacture of the SLR should be purchased from Germany or Sweden. As for the ammunition, it should be purchased as the current stock is inadequate and inappropriate. Although we may have the capacity to forge steel and the arsenals have the capability to manufacture ammunition, the competency is far from desirable but can be overcome with further research and development.
Hey Ian, as usual a very very interesting video! I have one question: I have seen this kind of disconnect in a number of firearms on your show. Wouldn't that mechanism allow the rifle to fire fully automatic or at least to double fire when you're holding the trigger at juuust the right spot? I ask because the trigger is not actively disconnected by reciprocating bolt.
I would think it would be near impossible to be able to hold it in that insanely precise spot under recoil of all that mass. Also, there is always the possibility it's an incredibly well timed mechanism, to the point there is no conceivable difference from the point when the sear can let it fly to the point the 'arm' breaks free.
Good points. I think you're definitely right on the first one. The second one I'm not so sure, because as the parts wear, and I'm assuming that they are wearing somewhat unevenly, that precise timing could be thrown way off. But maybe these parts just don't wear enogh during whatever life time this firearm has.
I was thinking something similar, but the the triger catch looks too small to actively hold the triger in the firing position. The thing is if you *enlarge* the bottom of the triger catch, it should hold the sear down with the triger being held back, creating a full auto rifle (with all of 6 shots in the mag well).
this ''China'' is now my country Taiwan, the ROC (Republic of China). just in case you didn't know, after WWII there was a revolution in China, and the communist kick us out of mainland China and proceed to form their own new government, which is the China you see today, the PRC (People's Republic of China). the ROC retreated to the island now called Taiwan and then we never fight back after that. There was a point where China and Soviet split (the so called Sino-Soviet split) and the US considered helping us retake the China in order to fight against commmunism, similiar to the situation in Vietnam and Korea. But it never happened. as a gun enthusiast, It's so fascinating to see this gun in action (by ''action'' I mean the gun is not just in pictures). back then we have resources and power, we copied a bunch of weapon that we considered to be good, such as the Hanyang Type 88 (based on the Mauser Gewehr 98) and the Shanxi Type 17 (basically Mauser Broomhandle in .45ACP), but we also try to innovate and create something new, this rifle is an example. I still consider myself a part of the old China, the China that fought the World War II with the allies. well, time has changed, and I think we should move on, nowadays we just call ourselves Taiwanese, there's no point trying to be China anymore, the world has long forgotten us. by the way, we still use Traiditional Chinese, that's the language you'll see on this gun's report.
Beast of the Far East I don't know if you can claim that's 'your' China, since Sun Yat-sen founded the Republic, which both Mainland and ROC claims to be the decendents of. He formed the republic long before Chiang-kai or Mao became relevant...
Love how Ian says stuff like "note to anyone doing this in the future", as if someone be searching on youtube for how to take the wood off an old Chinese prototype rifle the same way I look up how to put the bolt slide back in my M500.
Nice to see you finally got to this bad boy. I remember seeing one rifle in the NRA firearm museum in Fairfax, VA. Unfortunately, the museum is too small for the collection they have, and most firearms (including this one I think) are relegated to being stacked vertically down a slim corridor with barely a name or description.
Seeing all these prototype rifles really shows how engineering and the ability to give a rifle to an untrained conscript really comes into play. It seems that most militaries where working with semi-automatic rifles from the 1900's forward, was it the age of the military stocks of bolt action guns that finally pushed adaption of the semi-automatic rifle?
Receiver marking says "Made by Hanyang Army Arsenal". Firing mode selector says 自 for auto (semi-auto) and 普 for normal (Manual). Gosh I was shocked when I see such well made rifle by Chinese arsennal of that time but it was actually made in US... I wonder if there are Chinese made ones to compare with.
Chinese, even got the tool to built it, can't produce much. Industry sucks so much that sth like this rifle that need good quality of steel is sth Chinese can't produce that time, not mentioning the illiterate farmer based work force.Really, it is a dream that is no way close to affordable for Liu, for the Chinese
The receiver markings are ancient Chinese proverb. Say 'Every action equal & opposite' and I believe it says 'dummy' on that last bit there. Cheek weld that thing wrong and you would wish for a scope ring black eye instead.
It would be way,way harder for the japanese troops to break through, China might actually hold out fengtian against the japanese, but supply problems and desertions were a common problem on china at that time, but i think Japan would think twice before staging marco polo incident.
What else are you going to find, a Chinese rifle made in CT! A truly unique piece I will give you that. I enjoyed the video and you did a good job filming it, Thanks.
I love that the testing report is mostly a list of technical problems caused by handmade springs, inconsistent propellants, etc. And then they say that because the soldiers testing it are used to bolt-action rifles and put their face too close to the action, causing them to smack themselves in the face with the bolt.
Ian, Are they letting you disassemble the guns so future owners have a nice howto disassemble/reassemble instruction video? I can't help but wonder... ;-)
the manufacturer's marking
陸軍漢陽兵工廠製
陸軍 = Army
漢陽 = Han Yang (location)
兵工廠 = arsenal
製 = made
made by army Han Yang arsenal
the word on the cap is
自 = Self (I think they want to denote 自動, which means "move by itself" or auto)
普 = Normal
great translation, well done
Huh, neat
Thanks mate.
late reply, but thanks for the translation my man, real MVP
But how do you remember all the symbols? We have what 26 letters we put together. I don't understand how you can possibly have a different symbol for every word. That's one language you want to know from birth I think.
Estimated Price: $6,500 - $11,000
Sold for: $80,500
Yeah I bet the owner that was selling the gun was surprised by the amount of money he or she made.
some rich Chinese robber baron I'm assuming.
Holly shit
@Lectiuss I can't help but wonder how much it would have sold for if Ian hadn't done a video on it ;)
There’s only less than 13 of those rifles today. Obviously it would be sold at such a price. Those are the legit ones, they dont manufacture them anymore.
Liu suffered cerebral hemorrhage from that stroke, and never recover, not died right away but passed away in 1929. He was always getting pushed by a few warlords in China, so after he was in hospital, they just tried everything to ruin his works.
He was from my hometown(and sort of related), one of my great-grandmother come from that family, so I've heard of him, I was only told he was more like a old school professor than a general.
Thanks!
Yingdi Xu had the commies not started their rebel against the ROC government China would be much better off today.
"China would be much better off today"
Up for debate, we are unable to tell if the corruption would be fixed, if China continued as it was, it would rival Italy for corruption in Government. As for the death toll, the possible purges conducted out of paranoia wouldn't rival that of Mao's death tolls but would reach the millions for sure. As for industrializing the Nation, it would be a slow process assuming the US stayed out of assisting China rebuild and China would remain a 3rd World Country today.
@@HaloFTW55 well ,reaching the same level of Italy would be difficult
@Yingdi Xu The mandate of heaven really fucked china up in the end. It's amazing an empire with succession laws of basically 'if you're strong enough to seize power then you're emperor' survived.
Damn, a lot of people like to make fun of Chinese firearm lineage but this general liu back in 1916 knew what the fuck he was doing!
The Liu as way was ahead of his time, and the design isn't some copy like many other nations attempting to start. I'm curious if Liu created anymore gun designs such as pistols.
+V Guyver It is unlikely that he would have been aware of some of the german and Hungarian prototypes out around that time right? The system seems more akin to some 20s and 30s designs, but even most of those weren't really good. Can you imagine something similar happening today? Like if apple started producing laser guns for China today decades ahead of the states lol.
Meh I have seen a laser shotgun before.
The only practical lethal-purpose laser weapons thus far are ship-mounted.
Amperzand They need a large amount of power. Trying to miniaturize one into a small arms class of weaponry is going to be impractical.
For its time, this is actually a rather good design. It seems that bad timing was the thing that killed this rifle.
8:36 "The bullet of course goes out this hole in the middle."
I learn so much about fire arms watching this NGL.
Born in 1869? You already know this man is gonna be successful.
This rifle looks 10 maybe 20 years old its in remarkable condition.
Before having seen anything of the video, I can already say "What a goddamn beautiful firearm". The dark wood, th old-style upper, the sights... Stunning :)
Except for the open area behind the receiver, I agree. They really should have slapped a dust cover on that; it would have prevented some potential malfunctions and made it better looking.
And helped with the worry the testers had about the action hitting soldiers in the face, if they weren't trained properly.
That'd be scary, having that bolt flying right at your eyeball, still a big shame that Liu couldn't finish this project.
The receiver marking says, "Manufactured by the Army Hanyan Arsenal."
PW did the work of making stamping tools
Pre114 thanks!
It‘s Hanyang😄
it depends on the Latin or Roman phonetics, both are correct forms
@@xianyu2094 it's later explained in the video that pw manufactured it.
Hey Ian!I have submitted a Chinese subtitle for the video,which I believe is 100% correct on meaning,but fail to reproduce your unique speaking habit and rhyme,that's just too hard for me.
In fact,the most parts of the subtitle have been finished months ago.However,I'm a senior in highschool.In Taiwan,it means that I could have barely time to do what I want to do and what I think is important to do.
My English listening and reading abilities is far beyond the average degree of Taiwanese highschool student,while my writing ability isn't remarkable so my grammar might be very weird.
As the first self-loading rifle design by Chinese,General Liu's SLR is definitely an interesting piece of Modern Chinese History.It's simply named '自裝槍' because there wasn't any other self-loading rifle had been recognized by Chinese!
1916 is the start of the warlord age,and General Liu's losing control on Han Yang Arsenal was largely because his relationship with the warlords who's occupying Han Yang(Wu Pei Fu and Cao Kun)wasn't very well.
A source of information said Liu had submit the rifle design to the rifle trial of U.S. Army in 1918.It also mentions that Julian Hatcher's "Hatcher's Notebook" have contents about his meeting with General Liu.
Even if the SLR had started production successfully,China didn't have the ability to produce the material needed for the self-loading rifle manufacture at that time.It means that the SLR would only be sent to the elite troops of the warlord who was controlling arsenal,instead of National Revolutionary Army or the Northern Government.
Well,once NRA took over Han Yang in 1926,the SLR might have the chance to become a main rifle in Second Sino-Japanese War and China Civil War.If they had been captured by PRC,they would have a chance to show up in Korean War!
There is no denying that Liu's SLR has the potential to develope into a great self-loading rifle design.The locking mechanism is similar to Mannlicher 1886/1888 because there were copies of them had been manufacturing in China since Ching Dynasty.It seems that the SLR can easily adopt the bolt design of Mannlicher 1895,getting rid of the durability problem.
The muzzle cup system of SLR is very likely to be much more reliable than Bang rifle,since it directly use the blowing power of the firing instead of redirecting them to push the piston.There's a lot to say,but I'm a little bit lazy to do that...
General Liu's another work is the copy of Browning M1917,which was produce in Han Yang Arsenal after 1921.
It's a shame that most of the Chinese people still believe that the first self-loading rifle in China is Garand,another little number of them know ZH-29,hardly anybody have heard of Liu's Rifle.
Let the forgotten designer and rifle never be forgotten,that's the reason why I made the subtitle.
楊程鈞 4:50是「中風」，不是「打擊」
翻译的真的很好，您的英文水平很高
翻译得大好！BTW这枪一般就叫做 刘氏自装枪， 没有正式的型号
Interesting!
Great work, buddy. 感谢你的翻译。
If it exists, I would love to see a report from Pratt & Whitney regarding what they thought of the rifle. Not as a manufacturing project, but as a practical battlefield weapon
For as early of a semi-auto as that is it is impressively simple.
sounds like a unique weapon from Fallout 3.
Why not 4?
eh the chinese were not mentioned as much in 4 as they were in 3
What about the Chinese sub and it's Ghoul captain?
true, but thats why i said "not as much"
MUCH better game
As someone from Connecticut, it's really interesting how much the state contributed to firearms history
Sad to see how CT,MA and other states where the US firearm industry started have become so anti gun.
@@1978garfield be scared sheep
It is we had so many legendary guns come from each state now they are forgotten
@nickbuckley4371 it keeps Ian in business
@@1978garfield Not anti-gun, but more accurately pro-"strict rules on getting and owning a gun". I've lived in both CT and MA and know many people who have gone through the process and happily own handguns and long guns.
I love how whoever was editing the video actually used the right Chinese national flag in 1910s :D
good work
Damn, that single-shot mechanism is the work of a genius.
I have always loved the 1st few generation of semi autos(rifles and pistols).
All of the different designs, concepts and ideas has always intrested me.
Pratt and Whitney Tool is an entirely different company from the famous Pratt and Whitney Aircraft engine maker. Pratt and Whitney Aircraft licensed the name Pratt and Whitney from the well known toolmaker when they began making engines on the 1920’s. Pratt and Whitney Tool made some pretty big machine tools, including a 12x30” lathe as recently as the 60s. They still exist in Hartford but they now stick to fine measurement tools.
Interesting, thanks for sharing!
Hi Ian just wanna say thank you for all the good and rare information you shared with us. your pronunciation of the chinese arsenal names are almost perfect already. I easily understood them: "Han yang" and "gong xian". around 8:00 in the video while showing the semi-auto / single shot switch, the characters on the switch shows as 自 (short form of 自動, which means automatic. character 自 itself means self) and 普(short form of 普通, which means normal) . despite the rifle itself has semi-auto and single shot releasing modes, the markings actually means "auto" and "normal". he could have chosen another character 半 which refers to semi. this still does make sense as back in 1910s there isn't any infantry rifles that has full automatic mode in the chinese market so that I guess mark it as "automatic" is still acceptable. in addition, they probably treated bolt action single shot rifles as common and normal , while semi-auto rifles were something new and fancy, thus mark single shot mode as "normal" also makes sense. I actually wonder if there could be any other rifle model that marks the firing mode same way as this general liu's. probably very low possibility as most of the later chinese guns were marked with symbols or characters that directly translates to single, semi, and auto to avoid confusion between semi-auto and auto.
Makes it probably the only rifle in human history, that got not built, because a war started...
liquidminds there are many countries that abandoned their self loading rifle programs at the outbreak of WW1.
the SAFN49 wants to have a talk with you.
Makes you wonder if Bolt Action Rifles would have become obsolete much earlier if WWI hadn't created such a surplus of them.
You must be new to this Channel....
liquidminds you're in for an education bud
I love some of the stories Ian tells on this channel. I'd never have known any of this..
The only think I used to not like about your videos is that they ended to quickly. Thanks for 2 days in a row of 20 minutes of gun goodness.
HEAR HEAR
“自” （zi）is short for 自動 which means automatic，“普” （pu）is probably short for 普通 which means normal/regular.
Thank you
Have to appreciate the high quality of machine work that went into building this rifle, it looks better than some rifles that were built many decades later and even today.
For a gas trap system, I think that's pretty elegant. It's definitely got issues, but the rifle body seems to keep everything inside nice and clean.
The first marking on the muzzle cap：“自” directly translates into "by one's self", which can be interpreted as an abbreviation for “自动”---"automatic", which is what semiautomatic used to be called before fully automatic existed. The second marking on the muzzle cap: "普" is an abbreviated form of "普通" which means "regular". Given how most other rifles functioned back then, "regular" refers to a bolt action firing mode.
Damn this is a really smart design. Shame about that whole war thing getting in the way
Someone sounds a bit jealous.
No one talks smack to someone with a picture of Mike Stoklasa
Not the war that got in the way. More like stroke.
Ironic that a war delayed the production of a military weapon
All Roads Lead Here you are not explaining yourself adequately
I love seeing how these old rifles work, definitely one of my favorite channels
Looks to be a VERY well thought out rifle. Looks no more complicated to strip and clean than a modern assault rifle (although the only one I'm familiar with is the SA80-A2, the nice H&K reworked model), maybe with the exception of the recoil spring removal. Should be an easy conversion to a thumb screw type action though. Regarding the locking system, it looks as if were the pin to deform at all then the load would transfer directly onto the bolt body via that nice strong looking material in front of the lever. I'm really REALLY impressed with it to be fair. Looks like a nice idea. I mean, the gas system would be a doddle to clean compared to most. Fitted with a shorter barrel and a longer double stack single feed box magazine this wouldn't have looked out of place into the M14 era.
This rifle is amazing. It's too bad that we werent able to see a further development of this rifle. It's very intuitive and seems very ahead of its time. I wish we could see it fired. i feel blessed we got this chance to see it. The machine work is amazing for essentially a craft rifle...
It's also very very close to being an open bolt LMG if you were to get rid of the disconnector...
All a college level vintage weapon course really needs is to have the curriculum consist of this channel.
i love it , cheap , simple , and looks like it would work everytime
Thank You very much Forgotten Weapon. I'm Chinese but I didn't know this guy before. The Beiyang Army were really the unsung heroes of Chinese history.
Interesting, a product made in the US for China, will we ever see that again? And fine craftsmanship at that!
some of the chips used in phones are made in USA, also some of the software is made and exported too, you could argue that software is finely crafted...
Not as of today with Trump's administration in office. If the US tried something like this today, the US would probably put trade tariffs on parts for the gun that are double the price of the gun itself and there would be no profit for the Chinese whatsoever.
Before the Communist Party took over after WWII, Sino-American relations were pretty good and they were close allies in World War II, but unfortunately the Communists took over so the West rejected China from that point onwards, hence history between the West and China.
@@stargate12345678 eh, not entirely. The US actually told Mao to finish his civil war in 1949, but by the time Mao got all the troops and transport in place, this idiot by the name of Kim invaded south Korea and scared the US that communism was trying to take over the world. And that scare led the US to tell Mao that he could invade Taiwan only after going through the Seventh Fleet.
@@stargate12345678 There was also a period (~1970-1989) when the two countries were sorta-allies against the Soviet Union.
What an impressively intricate firearm. Amazing that there were such talented engineers in China at the time.
the selector says"自“ (self) for self-loading semiauto, and “普” (reg) for regular bolt action
the auction site says it sold for $80,500! Wow.
As a machinist I marvel at the amount of work it would take to make such a complex mechanism. Great video thanks. I'd like to see more artillery and big guns
You must be a poor machinist
ETA: Or trained solely on CNC, which is to say a professional but not actually a machinist at all
A clean design, sad it never had the chance to be developed to a more effective model.
Great video Ian. The mechanics of that rifle are very interesting.
Someone may have noted this, but the Pratt & Whitney mentioned here is not the aircraft engine company. The engine company was founded in the 1920s by engineers who had left Curtiss-Wright aircraft. The engineers built a radial engine to meet a Navy requirement. When the Navy testers looked at the engine they weren't sure who built it. They saw the Pratt & Whitney logo on the engine castings and wrote "built by Pratt & Whitney". The engineers had contracted Pratt & Whitney Manufacturing to build parts of the engine for them. They left well enough alone and Pratt & Whitney Aircraft was born.
Pratt & Whitney Manufacturing has a long history of building machine tools. General Liu got world class machine tools for his rifle when he went to P&W. Had things worked out better, China would have had one of the best arsenals in the world in 1914.
Hey lan, it's necessary to mention that the ship which carried the manufacturing instruments
for General Liu rifle sunk on the way back to China, which was a huge blow for Liu. That's why he suffered stroke and never recovered. After he passed away, there was no one knew how to produce Liu's Rifle and the instruments in China were used to produce other weapons. This accident was a great loss for Chinese military industry.
Their is also a Pratt and Whitney in Alabama. I believe it started life around Eli Whitney's cotton gin. Their was a building still standing, just a few years ago that had a Pratt and Whitney carriage company sign still on the front. This is located in Prattville Alabama. I wonder if Daniel Pratt had anything to do with the name of the town... lol.
September 8, 1916
Army Materiel Command’s test in Nan-Yuan Proving Grounds on the new rifle by General Liu Qing-En, referred to as the self-loading rifle (‘SLR’)
Details of the SLR are as follows:-
Caliber - 7.9mm
Length - 703.1mm
Muzzle Velocity - 780m/s
Weight - 5kg with bayonet attached
Firing rate - 50 rounds/minute
Magazine capacity - 6 round clip internal magazine
The report by Army Materiel Command on the test-firing of Chief Superintendent Liu’s SLR goes on to describe the major parts of the SLR (Report also details the test-firing of an anti- aircraft machine gun modeled on the Danish Madsen gun) as follows:-
i) Muzzle and gas regulator
ii) Barrel and Receiver (sliding block)
iii) Boltcarrier
iv) Operating mechanism (piston, cocking piece, driving spring & buffer spring)
The SLR is heavier than the average infantry rifle by 1 catty (Chinese unit of measurement, equivalent to around 604.8 grams during the administration of the Republican government but has been revised by the PRC government to be equivalent to 500 grams) and consist of a total of 94 parts. Briefly, the self loading mechanism uses gas expelled by the cartridge and as the round leaves the barrel, the muzzle gas trap cap (with three holes for adjustment) starts extending forwards triggering the operating mechanism which moves the bolt carrier rearwards extracting and chambering the next round as well as locking the bolt. When all the rounds are expended, the bolt is unlocked and the loading chamber is exposed. If the user wishes to convert the SLR from ‘self-loading’ to ‘manual’ (single shot bolt), he can do so by turning the muzzle gas trap cap clockwise, sealing the cap and seizing the self loading function.
During initial trails, an example of the SLR manufactured by the Han Yang Arsenal was tested and the self loading mechanism seized. According to Superintendent Liu, the fault lies with the driving spring which was hand-made due to a lack of machinery at the arsenal and therefore not up to the required tolerances. Following this, an example of the SLR manufactured in America was tested and went through 6 magazine clips with no issues or stoppages. A rough calculation placed the firing rate at 40 rounds per minute based on a magazine clip of 6 rounds. However there were issues with target acquisition and aiming, although recoil is minimal, the ejection action and gas action at the muzzle gas trap cap
inadvertently causes the muzzle to climb which cannot be negated as the entire weight of the rifle is supported the firer’s left arm.
In addition, due to inconsistencies in the propellants of the cartridges fired by the SLR, stoppages occurred when the bolt was unable to lock or when the driving spring engaged too quickly. Another point to note was the tendency of the sliding block receiver to run into the face of the firer, in particular since most of the firers are used to bolt action rifles with action of length 10cm or less. This was no fault of the design of the SLR but emphasis should be placed upon this during training. Further, during manual fire (bolt action), there were instances of “double feeding”. Otherwise, the SLR had no faults.
There has been no developments in this nation’s firearms for sometime now, Superintendent Liu’s effort has been validated both in theory and in practice and the results are promising in the particular the results of the test is impressive. We note that the SLR functions best in repeating fire and although this expends vast amounts of ammunition, there are occasions where this may be called for.
September 13, 1916
Minutes of the Meeting of the Army Materiel Command
The following were discussed:-
i. The SLR is indeed heavier than the standard infantry rifle.
ii. Steel needed for production must be imported.
iii. The raw material costs per weapon must cost more than 2 Yuan (currency denomination of the then Nationalist Government) over the current infantry rifle.
iv. Whether the muzzle gas trap cap will be affected by dust and dirt and whether it can be turned smoothly and effectively in a battlefield situation is something that can only be addressed when the SLR is in general issue.
v. What is the bore erosion rate? For example, German made steel is affected by bore erosion after 5,000 rounds.
vi. Will the bolt carrier and sliding bolt overheat and seized?
vii. The rear of the SLR is exceedingly long, how will target acquisition and aiming be affected?
It is resolved that Superintendent Liu conduct further tests at the Officer Cadet School and thereafter modify the SLR accordingly and send them to the infantry unit for field tests along with the requisite manual and instructions. Further, the steel for the manufacture of the SLR should be purchased from Germany or Sweden. As for the ammunition, it should be purchased as the current stock is inadequate and inappropriate. Although we may have the capacity to forge steel and the arsenals have the capability to manufacture ammunition, the competency is far from desirable but can be overcome with further research and development.
Hey Ian, as usual a very very interesting video! I have one question: I have seen this kind of disconnect in a number of firearms on your show. Wouldn't that mechanism allow the rifle to fire fully automatic or at least to double fire when you're holding the trigger at juuust the right spot? I ask because the trigger is not actively disconnected by reciprocating bolt.
I would think it would be near impossible to be able to hold it in that insanely precise spot under recoil of all that mass. Also, there is always the possibility it's an incredibly well timed mechanism, to the point there is no conceivable difference from the point when the sear can let it fly to the point the 'arm' breaks free.
Good points. I think you're definitely right on the first one. The second one I'm not so sure, because as the parts wear, and I'm assuming that they are wearing somewhat unevenly, that precise timing could be thrown way off. But maybe these parts just don't wear enogh during whatever life time this firearm has.
I'm just talkin theories. ;-D
Striker would follow and probably not fire the gun
I was thinking something similar, but the the triger catch looks too small to actively hold the triger in the firing position. The thing is if you *enlarge* the bottom of the triger catch, it should hold the sear down with the triger being held back, creating a full auto rifle (with all of 6 shots in the mag well).
At 5:19
It is "Gong Xian(鞏縣 /巩县) arsenal". Gong Xian is the name of the location.
Oh, at 8:11, the character "普" from word "普通" means "regular" and the character "自" from word "自動"(automatic) means (semi)automatic.
General Liu: the Chinese version of The Dukes of Hazzard.
nah, i'm think that's the emblem/crest of Matsudaira clan, later became the emblem of Tokugawa
@Neurofunke that is the Tokugawa Hollyhock
Man, did Søren Bang have the greatest name for a firearms designer or what?
trying to shoot that thing must be terrifying! that bolt is massive and it flies backwards straight into your face.
Seriously cool! What a piece of history!
Remarkable design....thanks Ian.
Old rifles like this just fascinate me
Rock Island's page listed an estimated price between 6500 and 11000 dollars for it, and it sold for over 80k, wow.
Yes, two people got into a bidding war over it.
this ''China'' is now my country Taiwan, the ROC (Republic of China).
just in case you didn't know, after WWII there was a revolution in China, and the communist kick us out of mainland China and proceed to form their own new government, which is the China you see today, the PRC (People's Republic of China).
the ROC retreated to the island now called Taiwan and then we never fight back after that. There was a point where China and Soviet split (the so called Sino-Soviet split) and the US considered helping us retake the China in order to fight against commmunism, similiar to the situation in Vietnam and Korea. But it never happened.
as a gun enthusiast, It's so fascinating to see this gun in action (by ''action'' I mean the gun is not just in pictures).
back then we have resources and power, we copied a bunch of weapon that we considered to be good, such as the Hanyang Type 88 (based on the Mauser Gewehr 98) and the Shanxi Type 17 (basically Mauser Broomhandle in .45ACP), but we also try to innovate and create something new, this rifle is an example.
I still consider myself a part of the old China, the China that fought the World War II with the allies.
well, time has changed, and I think we should move on, nowadays we just call ourselves Taiwanese, there's no point trying to be China anymore, the world has long forgotten us.
by the way, we still use Traiditional Chinese, that's the language you'll see on this gun's report.
by PRC lol
Beast of the Far East I don't know if you can claim that's 'your' China, since Sun Yat-sen founded the Republic, which both Mainland and ROC claims to be the decendents of. He formed the republic long before Chiang-kai or Mao became relevant...
Beast of the Far East I hope you can eventually take back the rest of your country from the oppressive communist regime that now rules it.
Beast of the Far East Yes, whining about how KMT lost the war is all this channel is about.... keep the political talk to yourself, sir
jeffery lee The US does NOT spend 54% of its GDP on the military. That would leave the country crippled... It's closer to 3.5%, 2.1% for Mainland.
Amazing. You are greatly appreciated sir. Kudos to you.
This may be a scary rifle to shoot... the whole bolt carrier rushes straight at your aiming eye like an express train, just like in a Sjögren shotgun.
Awesome channel, always learn something new!
I just watched your original video about the General Liu yesterday and was wondering if you would make another
Glad you did fam
Strange looking piece you brought us here. Wow. . Great review in any regard!
These early auto loaders are so fascinating!
Quite nice machine work for the time period. Also the metal seemed to be high quality to machine so well and hold up. Pratt Whitney did a great job.
I've never seen the Pre-Communist Chinese flag before. It's pretty.
TheZombieburner Seychelles flag is the best IMO
That's the Pre-Republic
@@HaloFTW55 that's the first Republic
@Zachary Durocher Yes five major ethnic groups.
Red: Mandarin/Han
Yellow: Manchu
Blue: Mongolian
White: Muslim (Uyghur and Donggan)
Black: Tibetan
@@ericlai1659 Then there's Manchukuo's use of that:
Red - Japanese
Blue - Mongols
White - Han Chinese
Yellow - Manchus
Black - Koreans
"It's a little hazy exactly what happened here" Early C20th Chinese history summed up right there.
Love how Ian says stuff like "note to anyone doing this in the future", as if someone be searching on youtube for how to take the wood off an old Chinese prototype rifle the same way I look up how to put the bolt slide back in my M500.
That is beautifully machined.
Really cool Old World engineering and story. Thanks for the video Ian.
well at least this gun now lives on in BF1 as a DLC medic rifle
Exquisite machining.
Imagine getting your face too close to the bolt and just getting absolutely *SMACKED*
Such an elegant and unique design. Agreed though probably a weak lockup.
Nice to see you finally got to this bad boy. I remember seeing one rifle in the NRA firearm museum in Fairfax, VA. Unfortunately, the museum is too small for the collection they have, and most firearms (including this one I think) are relegated to being stacked vertically down a slim corridor with barely a name or description.
You can put this in the BF1 playlist now.
Seeing all these prototype rifles really shows how engineering and the ability to give a rifle to an untrained conscript really comes into play. It seems that most militaries where working with semi-automatic rifles from the 1900's forward, was it the age of the military stocks of bolt action guns that finally pushed adaption of the semi-automatic rifle?
Will we ever see the Walter WA 2000 sniper rifle on the channel?
If I ever find one.
Forgotten Weapons Are they really that rare?
there were only 176 ever made.
theres only like 12 in the US and one guy owns 9 of them
That's mass issue for forgotten weapons.
Could be better does not mean bad. When the pin deforms the lever pushes into that solid looking socket.
One of the best guns in BF1
i get one service star per day using that gun LOL
That in one really complicated firearm! I can only imagine the amount of machining that would go into building that sort of weapon.
I cant describe that wood smoothnes and color 🤤
Just unlocked the last variant of this fine rifle in BF1.
which makes no any sense.(i mean the history, not about your gaming skill)
KainetheWusky its my fav medic rifle
KainetheWusky nice, high five furry friend :D
The quality is really nice..
thanks for another cool video.
Liu tried so hard and got so far but in the end doesn't even matter!
Thank you for the vid!
I wondered what happened when you twisted the muzzle cap!
god's speed to those who could hold a cheek weld firing any rifle like that
Receiver marking says "Made by Hanyang Army Arsenal". Firing mode selector says 自 for auto (semi-auto) and 普 for normal (Manual). Gosh I was shocked when I see such well made rifle by Chinese arsennal of that time but it was actually made in US... I wonder if there are Chinese made ones to compare with.
Thanks.
Chinese, even got the tool to built it, can't produce much. Industry sucks so much that sth like this rifle that need good quality of steel is sth Chinese can't produce that time, not mentioning the illiterate farmer based work force.Really, it is a dream that is no way close to affordable for Liu, for the Chinese
After 30 years, the chinese would put type 56 semi--just the SkS, as their prime weapon
Makes you wonder how much of a difference these would have made during the Sino-Japanese war if they had been adopted and mass produced.
Man I feel really sorry for General Liu Looks Like that bad fortune/Luck has gotten the best of both him And this weapon.
The receiver markings are ancient Chinese proverb. Say 'Every action equal & opposite' and I believe it says 'dummy' on that last bit there.
Cheek weld that thing wrong and you would wish for a scope ring black eye instead.
So many complicated machine operations! Looks Swiss!
Imagine what might have happened during the Japanese invasion if China had gotten this into production and all their troops had been armed with it.
It had the potential to turn the situation around. It wouldn't have fixed the strategic issues though.
It would be way,way harder for the japanese troops to break through, China might actually hold out fengtian against the japanese, but supply problems and desertions were a common problem on china at that time, but i think Japan would think twice before staging marco polo incident.
Fate seems to make sure that no self loading rifles enter mass production till ww1
What else are you going to find, a Chinese rifle made in CT! A truly unique piece I will give you that. I enjoyed the video and you did a good job filming it, Thanks.
Cool video. Glad to see a fellow Ian doing us proud. :P
This rifle was manufactured substantially but few soldiers use it because unlocking this rifle is hard in bf1.
I love that the testing report is mostly a list of technical problems caused by handmade springs, inconsistent propellants, etc.
And then they say that because the soldiers testing it are used to bolt-action rifles and put their face too close to the action, causing them to smack themselves in the face with the bolt.
This is great because if you run out of ammo, you can still use the spring as a bullet
One of the coolest weapons ever made into Battlefield 1
Ian,
Are they letting you disassemble the guns so future owners have a nice howto disassemble/reassemble instruction video?
I can't help but wonder... ;-)
Probably helps to raise sale price, too.