At 1:53:55 there is a final snapshot of each final tier ranking! Otherwise, please find the chapters if you are trying to get to a specific creature! All of my thanks for the support and the warm interest from so many wonderful people and I am grateful that this great game brings us together! Please visit mightandmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Heroes_of_Might_and_Magic_II:_The_Succession_Wars to find the interface on the left that I borrowed for the purposes of this video!
In your consideration of Veteran Pikeman vs Royal Mummies you forgot about the Mummies curse ability, which greatly increases their durability by reducing the amount of return damage they take. Combined with their higher hitpoints mummies will keep their numbers up longer than pikemen, who will start off with a higher stack but will die faster and thus drop damage quicker.
You are COMPLETELY correct! I did not mention their curse ability anywhere and I think that their special ability use case is a tremendous asset and great reason to put them above Veteran Pikeman! Excellent point, you have persuaded me to change my mind and I thank you for it! Any other choices that stood out to you as being a potential miss?
Nope, everything else seemed solid, you rated Champions higher than I would but you explained your rationale for it - awesome list and really enjoyed seeing someone doing HoMM2 content in 2024
I don't understand English very well by ear, but you pronounce the words so clearly that I understand almost everything! 🙂 Thank you for your work, the videos are very interesting. I'm a big fan of Heroes 2, but it's very rare for RUclips content to be made in my language.
There are a great many wonderful Heroes of Might and Magic players across the world! And while I am happy to fill that niche for you, I do hope that we find someone in your native tongue or perhaps we persuade you to be that person who will make videos in your language :) I will be your first watch!
Love the Seth reference haha! "You are supposed to work your way up to the best faction, which is Warlock. If you can't get Warlock, settle for Wizard. If you can't get Wizard, settle for uninstalling the game." Ghosts are so good, I would consider finding Barrow Mounds a straight up win condition. I think I agree with most points you made, I have never really considered the Boars to be such a great unit, maybe I should give them another chance! The Unicorn for me personally would be C tier, mostly because I feel there is just not that much to them compared to the other tier 5 creatures. Liches, mages and trolls are shooters and because of that I feel they will always have a role to fill, which Liches definetely being the least favorable of the three. Hydras are excellent defenders and very unique and Champions can cross the battlefield and will allow you to go first ewith spells. Unicorns are just plain horses that run three quarters across the battlefield, hit something and maybe blind it. They are not necessarily a bad unit in terms of stats, I just find them dull.
I am so glad you knew EXACTLY which part I was talking about! Thankfully I haven't had to settle for uninstalling the game so far 😅 When next I replay some of the campaigns, I think I must be on the lookout for ghosts that might join. In fact, the value of Diplomacy as a secondary skill may not be in the ability to maybe persuade high level troops to inconsistently join, but in ghosts... I just need 1 and I will find EVERY Peasant on the map 😆 And I do agree with everything you've said here about Unicorns! When I say that I haven't been a fan of them, it is because of everything you mention here, including the point that they are just, "plain horses". Really, they sort of are and don't do much else other than give that 20% chance to blind! Heroes 3 had the nice bonus of having an area of affect magic resistance aura which is KINDA COOL! But otherwise, you just have stats. Good stats when it comes to damage, surely, but just stats. I will not give you any grief about putting them in C Tier 😄
😂🤣😂 I didn't even realize! And you can tell I am taking a second to try and work it out in my mind and I still blew it 🤣 My day is better now, thank you for the hearty chuckle 😄
Great video, Phixfox. Thanks for creating this great content. I wish I had time to play Heroes 2 right now. I agree with your rankings here and think you did a great job. It gives me energy to make my own ranking video just for fun, even though I don't create content on RUclips. Some notes to add along the way that may cause some minor adjustments: - Don't forget about the dwarves ability to resist spells. This 25% resistance can be a total game-changer in tight battles. Think of all of the times they resisted an offensive spell. - Don't forget about the mummy's ability to curse enemies, which goes from 20% to 30% upon upgrade. A minor perk but an edge if 1v1 last stack battle. - Don't forget about the golem's 50% damage reduction from elemental spells. This is absolutely huge, especially when defending a castle siege against a caster. - Don't forget that enemy units can't retaliate against vampire attacks. That's another huge advantage they have, especially on top of the vampire lord's leech. - Putting the hydras above the power liches is something I think I disagree with since hydras are very slow and slow down hero movement on the map. I rarely ever use hydras because of this, and that's a shame since they're so good everywhere else. I love how they look, too. Power liches are very fast and ranged, and that gives them the edge for me. It's also way easier to obtain Animate Dead (level 3 spell) than Resurrection True (level 5 spell), which helps the liches. Your point about the cloud attack is a huge one, though. - One more thing to add that makes dragons powerful is using Elemental Storm and Armageddon in conjunction with them. On the flipside, titans and other tier 6 units can all be buffed as you said, but you can also resurrect them and clone them with Mirror Image, making them super powerful. Titans also have no melee penalty. Really big. - Don't forget that bone dragons lower enemy morale. In addition, they can be more easily resurrected than other creates due to Animate Dead being more accessible. - Don't forget that crusaders are also immune to Curse. It's very minor, but it's something. I always underestimate Crusaders, and there's something to be said for that.
I would love to see you tier ranking, please go for it! And all excellent points, especially remembering the Vampire Lords with no retaliation, the negative morale when facing Bone Dragons, and ESPECIALLY animate dead! I think it’s a mistake to not talk about spell interactions and it did come into play when discussing the hydra for me noting that haste or teleport changes their usefulness in battle. Excellent comment, and those unique abilities absolutely are critical :)
It's also worth mentioning how insanely expensive it is to turn a Giant into a Titan. If i remember correctly, it's 10k gold /unit! (someone please check ingame :D) Black dragons are also 1000 gold cheaper than Titan, and against Titans you can use Disruptive ray (-3 defense / use for whole battle duration) that stays on Titan even if they get magic immunity! I'd say that having magic immunity from the start is much better than having potential buffs, as Disruptive ray can be cast multiple times and it cannot be removed!
It is insanely expensive to do any upgrade! The difference in the cost between the units (2000 and 1 gems for Giants, 5000 and 2 gems for Titans) is DOUBLED to make the upgrade to the higher tier unit 😵💫 Often I find myself deciding either to use Ogres or to wait for their Ogre Lord upgrade for this very reason, and less often but still as a concern for some upper tier creatures (Paladins to Crusaders, Green or Red Dragons up a level). I wholly agree that 6000 gold plus gems to upgrade one Giant to a Titan just means these poor Giants will probably just stay that way! Yes! I think that when talking about spells, it is easy to want to drop a Chain Lightning spell and do tremendous amounts of damage, but in late game fights you are more likely to get value out of reducing an enemies defense or adding to the attack of your own units as you mention with a Disrupting Ray! I have always wondered if that was always intended from the game developers that Disrupting Ray could not be Cured or Dispelled, but since that is not the case it is an AMAZINGLY powerful way of dealing with power stacks, and all the more reason a Black Dragon is top of the list! Great comment, thank you so much! Is there anything else that you had a thought about?
Love your new haircut and the cat that I see in the background, maybe move the cat to the left or right so that he/she is more visible ? Thank you for all your videos !
She is a great cat and I had not considered that people would be interested in her, I will see what I can do! We will have to see how camera shy she is! I am so glad you enjoy them, thank you so very much for the feedback! It really helps keep me going 😊
Huge thanks! It's a wonderful game with some deep intricacies, lore, and replayability, so it brings together some of the very best people and minds :D Thanks for the great vibes!
Just stumbled upon this vid. Solid tier list, Heroes 2 is pretty much all about 3 things: Necromancy, ranged units, and flying units. That being said, giants are clearly the worst T6 unit. It's melee, slow, expensive, has the worst specialty among T6, not to mention you will rarely upgrade your giants into cyclops (it will cost less to buy a new one).
I really regret not taking cost into account in this video for exactly the point you are making about Giants! I still have a follow-up video that should encompass cost analysis, but for now it does affect the rankings to not bring that into consideration. Amazing how ranged/flying/Necro do really separate themselves from others! I always thought that Necro units being slow was too big of a disadvantage, but late game spell casting being negated by enemies is TOTALLY worth it! Likewise, Flying/Ranged creatures can have weaker stats and still be better because of that advantage. Any places that you felt like I might have really missed on? Thanks for the time and interest! ☺
Regarding what you said about Warlock - which unit to take with you. You said you prefer to put the griffins away, I keep them instead of hydras. The only exception is when the hero has logistics and maybe even one artifact to increase movement points *and* I have either haste or teleport spells. Hydras both aloe you down and are slow on the battlefield, therefore I keep them as dedicated castle defenders and take griffins instead, unless I have a way to mitigate both od their weaknesses.
I think you and I see the exact same problem and I completely agree with your assessment! There does come a point in my mind where I am looking to try and end the game or break the enemies offensive and I need all the high quality troops I can get, and I suppose that in that circumstance it is where I will end up leaving the Griffins for Hydras, but otherwise for general adventuring the 3 speed is such a burden. I like that you also make your choice dependent on available spells! It has given me an idea for a new topic... what is generally the best buffing spell for each creature! You may get a lot of the same answers, but Hydras exemplify that there are some major strategy defining interactions.
@@Phixfox the topic about best buffing spell may be interesting, however I presume there would be quite a few cases where it would be depending on what are you facing. For example rangers or centaurs are only shooters in their respective armies. When you are facing mostly walking enemies, bloodlust/bless isthe way to go. Against more shooters or fliers, the better option may be stone/steelskin for unit preservation. And when fighting enemy caster hero, anti-magic could be a very good option to prevent blind (unless you have the All-seeing eye pendant).
@@KlaymenSk Excellent point! Off hand I can think of only a few high-synergy unit-spell combos that might be worth talking about like Hydra Haste/Teleport, Dragon Armageddon, Phoenix Elemental Storm etc. The real strategy is finding those combinations that fit the circumstance you indicate. Perhaps it is best that way, as there are already a few spells that change any game once they appear (Berserk, Dimension Door), and too many would crowd out good strategy. I'll keep mulling over the idea!
@@Phixfox maybe except for some clear-cut cases (like the black dragon & armageddon as you have mentioned), add some general rules - like units with wide damage range benefit really well from blessing. At least in Heroes 2 the debate is much simpler, unlike in Heroes 3 with more utility spells like precision or frenzy (and even taking available magic schools skills into account).
Sounds like a good idea to me, that sounds like a fun video :) Aha, someday we will worry about schools of Magic in Heroes 3, but that day is not today 😆 Thanks for all of your input, I appreciate it!
Hey, thanks for the video. I have only one pet peeve... S tier should not be "the best", that's what A tier is for. S tier is for "the broken" - Vampires, Titans and Black Dragons. Skeletons, Orc Chiefs, Gargoyles - those are all A tier. You don't rush and clear a whole map with Gargoyles, you rush and clear a whole map with Vampire Lords. I might consider Skeletons S tier, but you have to count Necromancy as part of the unit.
That's a fair criticism! I enjoy other tier lists that utilize the "god-tier" distinction for some specialized degree of OP, but I failed to effectively utilize that here. I think if I am ever to combine all of these different units into one ranking instead of going tier by tier then adding God-Tier wouldn't just be good but be actually necessary to help keep order and differentiate between degrees of magnitude.
I couldn't agree more :D From a balance and game perspective, I don't have that there are peasants or Ghosts or any number of options that make the game potentially volatile, and the more I stick around the more I realize that this was a very purposeful choice to have the1 hp peasant :)
Thinking about units in this tier list, I can't get rid of thing, that some units has benefits over the other units in their tier list. Like, their faction is not that strong, so there are things that will help them to compensate weakenesses. For example, Knights and Barbarians are weak factions cuz they have no power to cast damaging magic, and their units are cheap and weak, so there are exist buildings for those factions. For example, if we take a look on buildings that allow us to hire units: 2nd lvl: Orcs, Archers and Dwarves can be recruited, while Gargolies, Hogs and Zombies cant. 3rd lvl: Iron Golems can be recruited, other units - not. 4th lvl: NONE 5th lvl: Liches (upgraded), Trolls 6th lvl: Red Dragons But there are also buildings that allow us to upgrade units. If we have many gold, then they are useless, but if we are at the start of the game and didn't upgraded them, then it can be useful to take more important nods and resources: Hill Fort - upgrades Orcs, Ogres, Trolls, Dwarves. Forge - upgrades Iron Golems, Pikemen and Swordsmen So... Despite Knighs and Barbarians are weak, they can get units from the neutral dwellings, and upgrade them in Forge. It gives them additional units in the army of their faction, that will not lower their morale, and allow them to save some money. For example, if we take Knights, we can calculate Pikemen and Swordsmen "economy". Pikemen cost 200 and 250 (upgraded). 7 pikemen a week = 350 gold save. Swordsmen cost 250 and 300 (upgraded). 6 swordsmen a week = 300 gold save. So we save 650 gold per week. Not too much, but 1 additional hero can make army delivery to your main hero faster, and this will impact on the temp of the game. But generally... Yes... I agree with this tier list. The only thing I'm not agree are zombies. They are weak. You put them in the same tier as Battle Dwarves, but Dwarves has the same HP, 6 attack and 6 defence, while zombies has the same HP and 5 attack, and 2 defence. They are very weak and I'm pretty sure that 6 dwarves can kill 8 zombies. Yeah, you can resurrect them with Animate, but Dwarves has 20% magic resistance and in the mid-end game, you will spend Animate on Bone Dragons or other high-tier units, while Battle Dwarves still will be pretty tanky + maybe, they will resist Armageddon or Mass Slow and save 4 initiative.
I apologize for the delay, I saw your comment and I knew that I wanted to give you a very thorough response since you took the time to be so thorough as well! You are SO right about the value of the Hill Fort/Freemans Foundry and the value of the Barbs/Knights. It always makes me happy when a map designer designates that certain factions will start in certain areas on a map, because then I trust that they took that calculation into account on whether or not to include that particular opportunity! Thinking of Broken Alliance, there are two Hill Forts, and going as Green Barbs or Knights makes little sense because they are so far away from those opportunities! Knights and Barbarians feel like they have to be the ultimate opportunists. Come to think of it for dwellings, it's pretty interesting that there is a 6th level creature dwelling in the Dragon City, but also interesting that it's NOT the Black Dragon. That feels like it was a purposeful balance choice, like Green Dragons would have been too weak but Black Dragons too strong... see, your comments about the economy of HoMM2 make me feel like some very serious thought went into these decisions. I feel like it's part of the reason why HoTA did so well with the new factions. They had to have a very good understanding of the game as it was to add in new units and two new factions. For Heroes 2, a new faction would really need to take that same sort of thing into account, understanding that a faction can be weaker if there is a power up option somewhere on the map. Like it's a real purposeful choice to include something or to leave something out. I am getting off track here, but I hope it makes a bit of sense in the context that you are providing. And oh, I think you have convinced me about the Mutant Zombies vs. Dwarves argument :) Any troops that can occasionally ignore an Armageddon is alright in my book :D
@@Phixfox Yeah, I think that may be some kind of "compensation" for weak factions. But to be honest, I'm not sure that developers were really thinking about balance that hard, as they think about it in HOMM 3. I also find those "economy optimization" to hire additional hero, as consequences of playing HotA, because, when HOMM 2 was released, all players played with 1-2 main heroes, and 1-2 scouts. Visiting a castle was a loooong way home, and it would be luck to find a "Gate" spell lvl 5 to make it easier to gather your troops from your castles.
@@eXtreamAngel It's for this reason I would LOVE to talk to one of the original developers to ask them about balance and what the process was for assigning values to units and what they thought of the factions. I'm positive that they would give some insights that would change the game as I know it :D There is quite a bit of luck in Heroes 2, like with getting town gate or town portal or DD, but I almost feel like it's less chaotic than Heroes 3 is, but perhaps that's because ive played more H2 by this point. We may never know 😅
I have been playing this game since I was 2 years old, and with my 18 years of experience I would like to tell where my opinion differs from yours. Tier 1: I would put sprites below centaurs and halflings since they are so fragile and the tier 1 ranged units are so useful for clearing early level walking units, such as goblins and zombies. Tier 2: I agree completely. Tier 3: I disagree with royal mummies being worse than veteran pikemen since they have better stats (+10hp is huge) and the ability to curse. Tier 4: Ogres should be below swordsmen because I prefer the speed over stats and having the ability to reach the enemy ranged stacks before dying is important. Tier 5: Similar to the ogres you overestimated the hydras, because they are so slow the rarely do anything in a fight and they slow down your hero in adventure map, their only good quality is to serve in defending a castle unless you have a massive stack of centaurs to defend. Also there are the power liches, they are great at clearing the map and farming skeletons I would put them in A tier. Tier 6: I agree completely If this was my list I would take the cost of the buildings and units at least somewhat into consideration, but if we want to rate the creatures purely with stats in mind this would be my opinion. Thank you for reading have a good day!
Two years old! Someone raised you right :D Tier 1: I like where your head is at! Sprites don't clear walking troops as well at all. Ranged troops are a breeze to deal with using sprites though! Tier 3: I completely, 100% agree. This is a miss on my end! If the Mummies are close at all to Pikemen, then their curse puts them above for sure! Tier 4: 1 speed for 20+ hit points feels like a rough trade off to me, but like with Tier 1 I think your explanation is completely valid and we are looking at the same piece of art and just appreciating different parts a little more or less :) Tier 5: Honestly, that may be the best explanation anyone has ever given me for the value of liches. They are VERY expensive (we didn't really take cost into consideration here like we could or should have as you pointed out with dwelling costs) but they give you skeletons essentially for free. I like that point! Hydras... oh Hydras... always a day late and a dollar short I fear. They are maybe the best garrison unit, but is that enough to keep them high up in the tiers? Again, I think you have an excellent argument due to speed in battle and on the adventure map. Tier 6: I wonder about your thoughts on Paladin/Crusader vs Cyclopes? Especially due to the cost in crystal for the Cyclopes? Thanks for taking the time to write such a long and thought out discussion!! :)
@@Phixfox Crusaders, Paladins and Cyclopes are all great if you get them early enough, but they can't really compete against other stronger tier 6 units. Cyclopes can sometimes attack 2 enemies on the same turn and paralyze, but the paladins/crusaders can attack 1 enemy twice every turn (this does so much damage if the enemy can't retaliate). I like the crusaders more since they are more consistent than the cyclopes even tho the cathedral and the units are more expensive. If you have 1 or more crystal mines the cyclopes are easier to recruit than Crusaders. also for tier 4 creatures I was talking about the regular swordsmen and ogres, not the upgraded ones.
I personally think Rocs vs. Vampires (un-upgraded) leans in favour of the Rocs from where I’m sitting. They can be blessed for 8 damage and benefit from morale. If you put 10 Rocs vs. 10 vamps, the rocs would come out on top. And if you can amass 15 sulfur in week 1 you could rush Bone Dragons instead of getting vamps too. Not to mention cost of dwellings and first possible day to acquire. Team Roc!
Aha! Nice to see you over here on youtube as well as on Reddit! 😄 I think that is a great argument that you are making there! One thing that I did not do nearly so good of a job pointing out is exactly what you said: morale does not affect the undead! That must be accounted for and overall I would say is a net negative for all undead troops given that the ability to occasionally go twice in combat is fairly easy to achieve for other factions and wandering heroes to achieve. I just ran 10 Rocs and 10 Vampires through the Battle Simulator on fheroes2 and I was surprised to find this: without positive morale and even going first, the Rocs only won 2 out of 20 attempts! However, when I gave them positive morale their wins boosted to 5/10. It is a very small sample size, but I think that it highlights the point on morale. When I pit 25 Rocs against 25 Vampires, Vampires win nearly every time, especially if Vampires attack first (no retaliation). When Rocs attack first they won twice out of 33 attempts. When we consider the way damage is calculated, however, I think that creatures with a higher range get better at 10 or less creatures in a stack, and this is how I mean: at 10 or less creatures in a stack, the AI will roll the dice to determine the damage for EACH creature. If the stack size is greater than 10, it will roll the first 10 and extrapolate that data to the rest of the creatures in the stack as a sort of average. It feels like, although I struggle to account for it, that the way damage is calculated favors each creature from a high variance damage stack rolling rather than getting an average. I am sorry for the essay, but you put an excellent comment out and I had to do some digging! But truly, the cost of the dwelling, the accessibility, and all the other factors mentioned makes me think that Rocs are still the way to go even if they do lose in the head to head comparison (this video is rife with examples where the 1 on 1 fight winner is ranked lower due to various factors). Thank you SO much for the great comment! Thoughts?
@@Phixfox strange I didn’t see your reply until just now 😳 I’m not surprised the vampires would fair much better when they have the first strike, especially when considering the Necromancer always has access to the haste spell. Factoring in a level 1 Necro vs. A level 1 wizard leading an army of end of week 2 creatures, say the Necro went for vampires over bones being deprived of resources becauses it’s on impossible. You have your 8 vampires vs. 8 Rocs Let’s say mages and liches are off the table. Your rocs have +1 morale and stoneskin and boars had the first move (Unless the wizard attacked purposefully without boars to give the rocs the first move on attack) That first strike might ultimately determine how the battle goes because the vampires are the best chance the Necro has at taking down the golems, whereas with boars and halflings for support you can easily handle the remaining Necro troops. I kind of made this wizard vs Necro, But I guess my point is admitting your research has highlighted how integral vampires are to their faction whereas Rocs are more complementary to their role posturing. 🤓
@@xkimo19 Well said, and a good read when it comes to theory in army composition and identifying our win and loss conditions in a battle. Thanks for the well thought out response!
You are absolutely correct, and my small disclaimer at the 6 tier creatures does not do justice to the Barbarian or Knight factions, especially when I lament that there units are "just alright". The two things that went into that decision making process were this: 1) It was already going to be a long video without diving into the cost of the dwelling/prerequisite buildings, and 2), this video is meant to set up a follow up video ranking the factions that WILL go into the costs associated. But it's a secret, don't tell anyone 😉
@@croatiahrvatska7402 I LOVE that you have asked! I got overwhelmed because of how comprehensive I want to make the video. It is still on the horizon, just percolating at the moment :)
@@Phixfox can’t wait for it! Considering our opinions are so different on a lot of things it would be amazing to see how you rank factions. My S tier Necromancers
Good Video one thing i don't really like about heroes 2-3 is that speed is tied too who is acting first and how far they can move in battles instead off doing too stats like speed and initiative when they made the game.
I think that is a great great point and makes for more inflexible troops because those two stats are tied. The idea that a creature doesn't have to move very far but still gets to attack first would be great for nimble creatures like halflings!
Yeah it have allways bother me and made the game a bit worse for me, also makes the slow/haste spell much better then it should be in my mind still love the game alot played it so long ago and wanna play some more when more updates is coming out maybe with other players but iam not that good at the game. I have no Idea about the tier list becouse i don't play heroes 2 much but i like these kind of videos and hope you make more of them in the future. Two thing i would change is problely Cyclops over paladin and Bone dragons over Phoenixs becouse you can get bone dragons on week one i know you don't calculate in the building cost so phoenix is problely better unit so thats fine with me too put them over bone dragons but cyclops must be better then paladin at least i thing so even if they cost more with building and unit thanks for the video hope for more.
@@Borasdk Aha! I overlooked that and you are the first person to point that out! Cyclops over paladin is a very very good call and I believe the correct call! Perhaps nearing two hours I should have taken a break so I could have my wits about me :D Thank you for the kind words, I will plan on doing more like this in the future! I know that fheroes2 does have plans to have online play someday, but that is still some time down the road (first up is the completion of the map editor). Perhaps someday I will see you in a friendly game! Otherwise, I appreciate your input very much ☺
@@Phixfox multiplayer should work through programs like Hamachi that simulates LAN connection. I played Heroes 2 and 3 a few times that way many years ago (before fheroes2 or VCMI), so it should work here as well.
@@KlaymenSk Very true! I am only vaguely familiar with Game Ranger as an alternative to Hamachi, but the online play is certainly possible! I love seeing communities in other games come together to create their own ranked ladders on third party websites and then matchmake through such clients! What HoTA has done for Heroes 3 in online play is stupendous to keep interest going for new and long time fans. I am not so interested in competitive Heroes, but I love nice friendly games ☺ Were there any hiccups in the Heroes 2 Hamachi use that you remember?
I honestly cannot think of any game that has a unit that warps any scenario that they appear in! I am ultimately very glad that they are in the game though :)
My original comment was going to be : "every time i feel like having remarks about the ratings, you would reshuffle it and fix in the final review" ... but then the last two tiers came along... and i just had to jump in 😆 First off, and yes, i know it's a hard one and situational at best, but regarding Arch Magi and Champions...... these are highly comparable, on their best and on their worst of days. And i would be hard pressed to decide which would a take, 10 of the former or 10 of the latter. The answer of course depends on what else you are packing, and what niche you need to fill in your stacks. But in the end, it pains me to say it (as the wizards are my favorite faction), but i have to take into account the roll they fill and how easy it is to substitute them with something else. And the answer is, ranged damage dealers a dime a dozen, compared with units that provide the ability to always go first. I mean sure, going first doesn't always give you the battle, but it can, depending on your choice of spells and hero stats. You can literally win battles without the enemy getting a turn. Something that is even more valuable on the strategic-adventure map, where attrition matters. And then there's logistics. I don't mean the speed of movement here, but how easy it is to make these units available. I know you don't consider cost-efficiency into this scaling, but availability is the best ability, right? And it's so easy to get champions compared to arch-magi. Not only is it easier, faster and cheaper, they are less prone to dying, because they don't draw the ire of enemy flyers as much as magi do. So you can have more of them. And because they also move faster, you can be more choosy as to how you use them. Second one, and this is much less subjective, i have actually used and fought green dragons with bone dragons and Phoenixes. There's no contest here. Yes, the greenies are slow in comparison, but unlike the case of magi and champions, the stats are just too overwhelming. Hit points, attack, defense, damage, and spell immunity. They just trump both bone dragons and Phoenixes. I have never been able to buff them enough to level the field, unless i have fought extremely low level heroes. As to the Phoenix VS bone dragon, then yeah, the ability to go first is paramount here, though it is still a hard choice, due to inherent squishiness of the Phoenix with only 100 hit points and no growth bonus. Well..... that's it. I would nitpick about some other minor shuffles i may have done here and there, as frankly, i don't think they would really matter, and most of those would be situational at best. Good video mate, keep them coming!
I am glad that you did comment and gave us the opportunity to hear your thoughts! 😃 It is such a great conversation! They both do what they do so well, and rather than choosing between good and a bad choice we are choosing between two good choices! 7 speed HAS to count for something! It simply must! And I love your point that others can provide ranged damage, making the Arch Magi role less exclusive. We didn't take into account the cost of these factions in this video, but at this point it feels important to bring up the point that you noted: we have to say that 375 per Champion with 30 Wood and 6000 gold for the dwelling looks SO much better than 700 per Arch Magi with 7500 gold, 10 wood/ore, and 5 gems/crystal/mercury/sulfur (plus 5 on each resource because of the library). I think that as a tie-breaker, there is no debate in that instance :) I think you're absolutely correct about the value of Green Dragons. They don't hold up to Titans, but they do hold up to everyone else, and I think that was a miss on my part (addendum video someday lol). I do think I undervalued the Bone Dragons and Giants, funny enough though. They were ranked correctly, but the gap was closer than I had it in my mind originally. The same argument on speed between Phoenixes and Bone Dragons as we had with Champions and Arch Magi comes up, but the extra damage and 50 HP on Bone Dragons is so good... I still value the 7 speed, but I feel better about Bone Dragons now than I ever have before. The nitpicks are where we get real value out of these videos! I take no offense and I am so happy that you are taking the time to let me know what you think :)
Hello from Heroes Succession Wars mod. I wouldn't put any level 1 creature into S tier, even the skeletons. At 4 hitpoints even if it's compared to other level 1 creatures it might be S tier, but compared to anything above you can't have it as more than A tier. even big stack of skeletons isn't very dangerous to a good h2 player, the only exception would be teleport spell to guarantee the fist big hit but it doesn't make them S tier
I absolutely agree with you -if we are ranking all creatures top to bottom! Funny enough, if I am building the perfect army with five creatures, it probably goes Titans, Black Dragons, Phoenixes, Crusaders and Gargoyles. Why Gargoyles? As a 6 speed flying creature they can position before my Black Dragons and take a retaliation from some huge stack as needed (maybe that's better than having a squad of Crusaders in the army at times, and maybe not). Of course, the ranking changes drastically depending on if we are doing it tier by tier, first 5 into an army, top to bottom, or any other way we can think of. Skeletons are actually an interesting pick for S tier in my opinion because they are SO AVERAGE! They don't fly, they don't shoot, and their stats are good but not great all things considered. Still, I do like that the HoMM2 manual calls them the best level 1 creature in the game because they have the HP and damage along with the necromancy. I guess my point in this essay is that you have a very valid opinion, and I am so happy we have such a great game that allows for a variety of strategies and ways to win :D Hello to the Succession Wars mod players also and I hope you guys are having the best time ever playing some Heroes 2 ☺
I actually used gargoyles stack in one of the campaigns I recently played over gryphons or minotaurs. It was so fun. tactically they might be the perfect unit, because of how aggro they get from computer. after they died I swapped to hydras for the end battle.
That is a sort of benefit that I find more in Heroes 2 over 3 in that because each Castle can have 6 dwellings but heroes only have 5 slots, there is always someone waiting in the wings to step up when another stack gets exhausted. "Tactically they might be the perfect unit", I may end up quoting you on that :)
Yes! That tradeoff of speed for durability makes sense on paper, but when they go first every time it can be difficult (or impossible) to have them be effective without taking a ton of damage. It's why being average speed for Bone Dragons is sneaky good because in general they can play responsively.
@@pierreo33 Yeah I would love to see a few more Crusaders and Cyclops a week to bring up the overall power of those factions (rather than lose 2 dragons or titans a week), but I also think it was a purposeful decision in game balancing to have early, middle, and late game strong factions. Someday I will find a developer from the original game who will let me know their thought process!
I wonder why you didn't try the peasant apologist approach, and try to fool us into believing that you'd rank it as an S-tier creature! 😃 I have several comments, and there's more to come, as we discuss... 1. If you end your tier list by mentioning a neutral creature, and even rank it above black dragons, why didn't you bring in the neutral creatures in the first place? 😉 The ghost is a lvl 4 unit, a genie is a lvl 6 unit. 2. I wonder why you don't understand or get why the Iron Golem receives +2 attack when upgraded, and no more than +1 speed. And you are not the only one, who says something like that 😉 Steel is a stronger metal, therefore it hits harder, thus more attack skill. Speed? Well Steel is heavier than iron, so naturally it should become slower. But golems are created and controlled by magic. And in some myths, since the Steel Golem is tougher and heavier than the one of iron, the stronger magic seal can be contained within it. So... It gets a small speed buff... 3. I'd rank Steel golems a bit higher. Because of their monster toughness, they don't get much attention on the battlefield. Therefore they grow in numbers and snowball into bigger numbers than the veteran pikemen would... I believe... I want to believe it 😃 I looove steel golems! Those animation sounds, uf. And you feel that impact on their enemies, when they hit them. 😍 4. For some reason I would rank red dragons higher than black dragons. For more than one reason. They cost 500 gold and a whole 1 sulfur less than the black dragons. On a map with scarcity on ressources, this means a lot! I cannot get many titans on scarce maps! But red dragons are more likely to buy out. Plus, the dragon cities offer red dragons! That's neat! 5. I wonder why you'd value those centuars so highly, when they, as you said, are hard to cover up against melee creatures! I tend to abandon them rather quickly, because they die like flies.
I am so glad to have you here in the comments section ☺ 1) That is a VERY good point! I wasn't sure how exactly to integrate the neutral creatures and I can honestly say that I don't feel qualified to discuss them in depth (nuances among elementals, for example). I suppose I may have to adjust that in the future, yes? But I am glad that the video had a twist at the end, all the same! 2) I LOVE that you are taking a practical and real world sense in explaining that buff to Steel Golems, and truly that is the way I want to approach all of the upgrades! Same reason the Giant and Titans are basically different creatures, because they basically ARE! 3) I suppose I could see myself into thinking about them more closely with their other Garrison comparison, the Hydra, a bit more. The idea is that eventually you MUST deal with them somehow, that their stats are tremendous despite their low speed, and they have the added benefit of reducing spell damage all make them a great unit. I still have not forgotten that my "Who Am I" run ran afoul of Golems 🥲 4) That comment about Red Dragons tickles a very nice spot in my brain! Dragon Cities coupled with the reduced cost... generally the 500 gold wont matter as much, but you are correct that the sulfur could ABSOLUTELY stop you from getting additional creatures, and clearly you would rather have 2 Red Dragons than 1 Black Dragon! You have given me a lot to think about here, especially the Dragon City comment! Good strategy sir! 5) I like things that go "pew pew pew"! Do you believe that they are worse than Halflings? Worse than Goblins? I really value their 5 HP because that allows them to scale into the late game in a way that other level 1 creatures cannot, and I do think that they fill a nifty niche being the only Warlock ranged troop. Granted, when you have 3 flying creatures in your army you don't need to worry so much about ranged damage, but there is some strategic advantage to having a balanced attack in my opinion. Those were my general thoughts at the time, but to your point only if you can maintain a decent stack of them! I humbly and patiently await your follow up thoughts 😁
@@Phixfox 4. I never go beyond red dragons. I rarely even use titans. They are too damn expensive when seeing things in the big picture. Those resources can be spend somewhere else to balance out the total cost to run a sizable empire. With unlimited resources and/or a garanteed win, sure, I'm gonna buy black dragons and titans :) 5. The thing about centaurs, in a warlock army at least, is that they are often too slow to shoot before getting hit. They are too hard to cover up, the hydras could help, but they are even slower than centaurs AND the ones who wanna piece of horse meat! Also... I agree on the benefits of the hydras. I love 'em just as much as you do! But they tend to be even MORE efficient if flyers don't fly away from it, because they want to hit your shooters, and instead go for you hydras! If you center your hydras and blitzkrieg 'em towards the middle of the battlefield, the AI will often close in on it, so you can beat 3-4 creatures all at once, once per turn! :D You need the have the hydras be registered as highest point of interest to the enemy hero!
@@TheStisen They really are expensive, and I am 100% on board with the thought process with the Red Dragons over Black Dragons argument on maps with scarce resources, but I must balk at avoiding Titans! Titans are truly SO expensive, but if I am not getting Titans then I definitely wont get Giants, and then I might as well not even invest in a Wizard castle in the first place! Although 5 Cyclopes beats 1 Titan in a head to head fight, I think that with reasonable support from other troops or a good heroes stats or spells that they can carry a fight. Ooops, I started typing and then read "With unlimited resources and/or a guaranteed win, sure, I'm gonna buy black dragons and titans :) " 😂 My apologies, we are on the same page, friend 🤣 I agree very much on your point with the Centaurs. I feel like a person being walked through exactly why its a bad idea to go to a Volcano and touch the lava, but there is a part of me that still wants to even in the face of solid reason and facts 😁 I think everything you have said is correct and I may want to consider altering my in-game strategy a bit. For the purposes of the ranking video, are they less than an A tier creature? Below the Halflings? Into the B-Tier?
@@Phixfox I wish Green dragons were not the weakest out of the 3 colours, because in my opinion they look the best :D Upgrading them for 50 hp sometimes is not that big of a deal, but unfortunately their speed also changes with upgrades. In my opinion it's just hard to justify running with 5 speed units when you can get together a potent 6 speed army. Movement points are so essential its crazy
Hobbits, oh, I mean halflings, are better than centuars because of two things: 1) They stack up by visiting the popular map object: Halfling Holes 2) halflings are welcome in ANY army early/mid game composition. The centuars doesn't always fit well ( in a sorceress or a wizard army for example) 3) stack up defence, and your griffins easily get more efficient on the offensive AND defensive side, so the centuars will be left in your town faster than the halflings. They need to stay in the same tier though.
I love the strategy very much! Worth noting that Phoenixes are immune to Elemental Storm and not Armageddon, but it effectively does the same thing minus a bit of potency. Combined with Diplomacy to reduce the cost of surrender, it's one of the most terrifying strategies in all of gaming :D
Dude, Vampires at A rank? You crazy? You should never risk your vampires ever. I can't see a single situation where I would build vampires and potentially lose a few which would spell disaster for the rest of the game as now my Vampire Lord power stack is lower. Vampires belong in C tier because their too valuable to risk in combat.
At 1:53:55 there is a final snapshot of each final tier ranking! Otherwise, please find the chapters if you are trying to get to a specific creature! All of my thanks for the support and the warm interest from so many wonderful people and I am grateful that this great game brings us together!
Please visit mightandmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Heroes_of_Might_and_Magic_II:_The_Succession_Wars to find the interface on the left that I borrowed for the purposes of this video!
In your consideration of Veteran Pikeman vs Royal Mummies you forgot about the Mummies curse ability, which greatly increases their durability by reducing the amount of return damage they take. Combined with their higher hitpoints mummies will keep their numbers up longer than pikemen, who will start off with a higher stack but will die faster and thus drop damage quicker.
You are COMPLETELY correct! I did not mention their curse ability anywhere and I think that their special ability use case is a tremendous asset and great reason to put them above Veteran Pikeman! Excellent point, you have persuaded me to change my mind and I thank you for it!
Any other choices that stood out to you as being a potential miss?
Nope, everything else seemed solid, you rated Champions higher than I would but you explained your rationale for it - awesome list and really enjoyed seeing someone doing HoMM2 content in 2024
I don't understand English very well by ear, but you pronounce the words so clearly that I understand almost everything! 🙂 Thank you for your work, the videos are very interesting. I'm a big fan of Heroes 2, but it's very rare for RUclips content to be made in my language.
There are a great many wonderful Heroes of Might and Magic players across the world! And while I am happy to fill that niche for you, I do hope that we find someone in your native tongue or perhaps we persuade you to be that person who will make videos in your language :) I will be your first watch!
Love the Seth reference haha!
"You are supposed to work your way up to the best faction, which is Warlock. If you can't get Warlock, settle for Wizard. If you can't get Wizard, settle for uninstalling the game."
Ghosts are so good, I would consider finding Barrow Mounds a straight up win condition. I think I agree with most points you made, I have never really considered the Boars to be such a great unit, maybe I should give them another chance!
The Unicorn for me personally would be C tier, mostly because I feel there is just not that much to them compared to the other tier 5 creatures. Liches, mages and trolls are shooters and because of that I feel they will always have a role to fill, which Liches definetely being the least favorable of the three. Hydras are excellent defenders and very unique and Champions can cross the battlefield and will allow you to go first ewith spells. Unicorns are just plain horses that run three quarters across the battlefield, hit something and maybe blind it. They are not necessarily a bad unit in terms of stats, I just find them dull.
I am so glad you knew EXACTLY which part I was talking about! Thankfully I haven't had to settle for uninstalling the game so far 😅
When next I replay some of the campaigns, I think I must be on the lookout for ghosts that might join. In fact, the value of Diplomacy as a secondary skill may not be in the ability to maybe persuade high level troops to inconsistently join, but in ghosts... I just need 1 and I will find EVERY Peasant on the map 😆
And I do agree with everything you've said here about Unicorns! When I say that I haven't been a fan of them, it is because of everything you mention here, including the point that they are just, "plain horses". Really, they sort of are and don't do much else other than give that 20% chance to blind! Heroes 3 had the nice bonus of having an area of affect magic resistance aura which is KINDA COOL! But otherwise, you just have stats. Good stats when it comes to damage, surely, but just stats. I will not give you any grief about putting them in C Tier 😄
1:47:15 That is one expensive Cloud Castle!
😂🤣😂 I didn't even realize! And you can tell I am taking a second to try and work it out in my mind and I still blew it 🤣 My day is better now, thank you for the hearty chuckle 😄
@@Phixfoxbut at least you end by saying " that's a lot". You goddamn right 😂
Great video, Phixfox. Thanks for creating this great content. I wish I had time to play Heroes 2 right now. I agree with your rankings here and think you did a great job. It gives me energy to make my own ranking video just for fun, even though I don't create content on RUclips. Some notes to add along the way that may cause some minor adjustments:
- Don't forget about the dwarves ability to resist spells. This 25% resistance can be a total game-changer in tight battles. Think of all of the times they resisted an offensive spell.
- Don't forget about the mummy's ability to curse enemies, which goes from 20% to 30% upon upgrade. A minor perk but an edge if 1v1 last stack battle.
- Don't forget about the golem's 50% damage reduction from elemental spells. This is absolutely huge, especially when defending a castle siege against a caster.
- Don't forget that enemy units can't retaliate against vampire attacks. That's another huge advantage they have, especially on top of the vampire lord's leech.
- Putting the hydras above the power liches is something I think I disagree with since hydras are very slow and slow down hero movement on the map. I rarely ever use hydras because of this, and that's a shame since they're so good everywhere else. I love how they look, too. Power liches are very fast and ranged, and that gives them the edge for me. It's also way easier to obtain Animate Dead (level 3 spell) than Resurrection True (level 5 spell), which helps the liches. Your point about the cloud attack is a huge one, though.
- One more thing to add that makes dragons powerful is using Elemental Storm and Armageddon in conjunction with them. On the flipside, titans and other tier 6 units can all be buffed as you said, but you can also resurrect them and clone them with Mirror Image, making them super powerful. Titans also have no melee penalty. Really big.
- Don't forget that bone dragons lower enemy morale. In addition, they can be more easily resurrected than other creates due to Animate Dead being more accessible.
- Don't forget that crusaders are also immune to Curse. It's very minor, but it's something. I always underestimate Crusaders, and there's something to be said for that.
I would love to see you tier ranking, please go for it! And all excellent points, especially remembering the Vampire Lords with no retaliation, the negative morale when facing Bone Dragons, and ESPECIALLY animate dead! I think it’s a mistake to not talk about spell interactions and it did come into play when discussing the hydra for me noting that haste or teleport changes their usefulness in battle. Excellent comment, and those unique abilities absolutely are critical :)
It's also worth mentioning how insanely expensive it is to turn a Giant into a Titan. If i remember correctly, it's 10k gold /unit! (someone please check ingame :D) Black dragons are also 1000 gold cheaper than Titan, and against Titans you can use Disruptive ray (-3 defense / use for whole battle duration) that stays on Titan even if they get magic immunity! I'd say that having magic immunity from the start is much better than having potential buffs, as Disruptive ray can be cast multiple times and it cannot be removed!
It is insanely expensive to do any upgrade! The difference in the cost between the units (2000 and 1 gems for Giants, 5000 and 2 gems for Titans) is DOUBLED to make the upgrade to the higher tier unit 😵💫 Often I find myself deciding either to use Ogres or to wait for their Ogre Lord upgrade for this very reason, and less often but still as a concern for some upper tier creatures (Paladins to Crusaders, Green or Red Dragons up a level). I wholly agree that 6000 gold plus gems to upgrade one Giant to a Titan just means these poor Giants will probably just stay that way!
Yes! I think that when talking about spells, it is easy to want to drop a Chain Lightning spell and do tremendous amounts of damage, but in late game fights you are more likely to get value out of reducing an enemies defense or adding to the attack of your own units as you mention with a Disrupting Ray! I have always wondered if that was always intended from the game developers that Disrupting Ray could not be Cured or Dispelled, but since that is not the case it is an AMAZINGLY powerful way of dealing with power stacks, and all the more reason a Black Dragon is top of the list!
Great comment, thank you so much! Is there anything else that you had a thought about?
Love your new haircut and the cat that I see in the background, maybe move the cat to the left or right so that he/she is more visible ?
Thank you for all your videos !
She is a great cat and I had not considered that people would be interested in her, I will see what I can do! We will have to see how camera shy she is!
I am so glad you enjoy them, thank you so very much for the feedback! It really helps keep me going 😊
I agree!! Show off the cat more!
Keep rocking dude - awesome video
Huge thanks! It's a wonderful game with some deep intricacies, lore, and replayability, so it brings together some of the very best people and minds :D Thanks for the great vibes!
Just stumbled upon this vid. Solid tier list, Heroes 2 is pretty much all about 3 things: Necromancy, ranged units, and flying units. That being said, giants are clearly the worst T6 unit. It's melee, slow, expensive, has the worst specialty among T6, not to mention you will rarely upgrade your giants into cyclops (it will cost less to buy a new one).
I really regret not taking cost into account in this video for exactly the point you are making about Giants! I still have a follow-up video that should encompass cost analysis, but for now it does affect the rankings to not bring that into consideration.
Amazing how ranged/flying/Necro do really separate themselves from others! I always thought that Necro units being slow was too big of a disadvantage, but late game spell casting being negated by enemies is TOTALLY worth it! Likewise, Flying/Ranged creatures can have weaker stats and still be better because of that advantage.
Any places that you felt like I might have really missed on? Thanks for the time and interest! ☺
Regarding what you said about Warlock - which unit to take with you. You said you prefer to put the griffins away, I keep them instead of hydras. The only exception is when the hero has logistics and maybe even one artifact to increase movement points *and* I have either haste or teleport spells. Hydras both aloe you down and are slow on the battlefield, therefore I keep them as dedicated castle defenders and take griffins instead, unless I have a way to mitigate both od their weaknesses.
I think you and I see the exact same problem and I completely agree with your assessment! There does come a point in my mind where I am looking to try and end the game or break the enemies offensive and I need all the high quality troops I can get, and I suppose that in that circumstance it is where I will end up leaving the Griffins for Hydras, but otherwise for general adventuring the 3 speed is such a burden.
I like that you also make your choice dependent on available spells! It has given me an idea for a new topic... what is generally the best buffing spell for each creature! You may get a lot of the same answers, but Hydras exemplify that there are some major strategy defining interactions.
@@Phixfox the topic about best buffing spell may be interesting, however I presume there would be quite a few cases where it would be depending on what are you facing. For example rangers or centaurs are only shooters in their respective armies. When you are facing mostly walking enemies, bloodlust/bless isthe way to go. Against more shooters or fliers, the better option may be stone/steelskin for unit preservation. And when fighting enemy caster hero, anti-magic could be a very good option to prevent blind (unless you have the All-seeing eye pendant).
@@KlaymenSk Excellent point! Off hand I can think of only a few high-synergy unit-spell combos that might be worth talking about like Hydra Haste/Teleport, Dragon Armageddon, Phoenix Elemental Storm etc.
The real strategy is finding those combinations that fit the circumstance you indicate. Perhaps it is best that way, as there are already a few spells that change any game once they appear (Berserk, Dimension Door), and too many would crowd out good strategy.
I'll keep mulling over the idea!
@@Phixfox maybe except for some clear-cut cases (like the black dragon & armageddon as you have mentioned), add some general rules - like units with wide damage range benefit really well from blessing. At least in Heroes 2 the debate is much simpler, unlike in Heroes 3 with more utility spells like precision or frenzy (and even taking available magic schools skills into account).
Sounds like a good idea to me, that sounds like a fun video :) Aha, someday we will worry about schools of Magic in Heroes 3, but that day is not today 😆 Thanks for all of your input, I appreciate it!
Hey, thanks for the video.
I have only one pet peeve... S tier should not be "the best", that's what A tier is for. S tier is for "the broken" - Vampires, Titans and Black Dragons. Skeletons, Orc Chiefs, Gargoyles - those are all A tier. You don't rush and clear a whole map with Gargoyles, you rush and clear a whole map with Vampire Lords.
I might consider Skeletons S tier, but you have to count Necromancy as part of the unit.
That's a fair criticism! I enjoy other tier lists that utilize the "god-tier" distinction for some specialized degree of OP, but I failed to effectively utilize that here. I think if I am ever to combine all of these different units into one ranking instead of going tier by tier then adding God-Tier wouldn't just be good but be actually necessary to help keep order and differentiate between degrees of magnitude.
Peasants have a lot of use... if you are necromancer...😁
I couldn't agree more :D From a balance and game perspective, I don't have that there are peasants or Ghosts or any number of options that make the game potentially volatile, and the more I stick around the more I realize that this was a very purposeful choice to have the1 hp peasant :)
Thinking about units in this tier list, I can't get rid of thing, that some units has benefits over the other units in their tier list. Like, their faction is not that strong, so there are things that will help them to compensate weakenesses. For example, Knights and Barbarians are weak factions cuz they have no power to cast damaging magic, and their units are cheap and weak, so there are exist buildings for those factions. For example, if we take a look on buildings that allow us to hire units:
2nd lvl: Orcs, Archers and Dwarves can be recruited, while Gargolies, Hogs and Zombies cant.
3rd lvl: Iron Golems can be recruited, other units - not.
4th lvl: NONE
5th lvl: Liches (upgraded), Trolls
6th lvl: Red Dragons
But there are also buildings that allow us to upgrade units. If we have many gold, then they are useless, but if we are at the start of the game and didn't upgraded them, then it can be useful to take more important nods and resources:
Hill Fort - upgrades Orcs, Ogres, Trolls, Dwarves.
Forge - upgrades Iron Golems, Pikemen and Swordsmen
So... Despite Knighs and Barbarians are weak, they can get units from the neutral dwellings, and upgrade them in Forge. It gives them additional units in the army of their faction, that will not lower their morale, and allow them to save some money. For example, if we take Knights, we can calculate Pikemen and Swordsmen "economy". Pikemen cost 200 and 250 (upgraded). 7 pikemen a week = 350 gold save. Swordsmen cost 250 and 300 (upgraded). 6 swordsmen a week = 300 gold save. So we save 650 gold per week. Not too much, but 1 additional hero can make army delivery to your main hero faster, and this will impact on the temp of the game.
But generally... Yes... I agree with this tier list. The only thing I'm not agree are zombies. They are weak. You put them in the same tier as Battle Dwarves, but Dwarves has the same HP, 6 attack and 6 defence, while zombies has the same HP and 5 attack, and 2 defence. They are very weak and I'm pretty sure that 6 dwarves can kill 8 zombies. Yeah, you can resurrect them with Animate, but Dwarves has 20% magic resistance and in the mid-end game, you will spend Animate on Bone Dragons or other high-tier units, while Battle Dwarves still will be pretty tanky + maybe, they will resist Armageddon or Mass Slow and save 4 initiative.
I apologize for the delay, I saw your comment and I knew that I wanted to give you a very thorough response since you took the time to be so thorough as well!
You are SO right about the value of the Hill Fort/Freemans Foundry and the value of the Barbs/Knights. It always makes me happy when a map designer designates that certain factions will start in certain areas on a map, because then I trust that they took that calculation into account on whether or not to include that particular opportunity! Thinking of Broken Alliance, there are two Hill Forts, and going as Green Barbs or Knights makes little sense because they are so far away from those opportunities!
Knights and Barbarians feel like they have to be the ultimate opportunists.
Come to think of it for dwellings, it's pretty interesting that there is a 6th level creature dwelling in the Dragon City, but also interesting that it's NOT the Black Dragon. That feels like it was a purposeful balance choice, like Green Dragons would have been too weak but Black Dragons too strong... see, your comments about the economy of HoMM2 make me feel like some very serious thought went into these decisions.
I feel like it's part of the reason why HoTA did so well with the new factions. They had to have a very good understanding of the game as it was to add in new units and two new factions. For Heroes 2, a new faction would really need to take that same sort of thing into account, understanding that a faction can be weaker if there is a power up option somewhere on the map. Like it's a real purposeful choice to include something or to leave something out.
I am getting off track here, but I hope it makes a bit of sense in the context that you are providing.
And oh, I think you have convinced me about the Mutant Zombies vs. Dwarves argument :) Any troops that can occasionally ignore an Armageddon is alright in my book :D
@@Phixfox Yeah, I think that may be some kind of "compensation" for weak factions. But to be honest, I'm not sure that developers were really thinking about balance that hard, as they think about it in HOMM 3. I also find those "economy optimization" to hire additional hero, as consequences of playing HotA, because, when HOMM 2 was released, all players played with 1-2 main heroes, and 1-2 scouts. Visiting a castle was a loooong way home, and it would be luck to find a "Gate" spell lvl 5 to make it easier to gather your troops from your castles.
@@eXtreamAngel It's for this reason I would LOVE to talk to one of the original developers to ask them about balance and what the process was for assigning values to units and what they thought of the factions. I'm positive that they would give some insights that would change the game as I know it :D
There is quite a bit of luck in Heroes 2, like with getting town gate or town portal or DD, but I almost feel like it's less chaotic than Heroes 3 is, but perhaps that's because ive played more H2 by this point. We may never know 😅
I have been playing this game since I was 2 years old, and with my 18 years of experience I would like to tell where my opinion differs from yours.
Tier 1: I would put sprites below centaurs and halflings since they are so fragile and the tier 1 ranged units are so useful for clearing early level walking units, such as goblins and zombies.
Tier 2: I agree completely.
Tier 3: I disagree with royal mummies being worse than veteran pikemen since they have better stats (+10hp is huge) and the ability to curse.
Tier 4: Ogres should be below swordsmen because I prefer the speed over stats and having the ability to reach the enemy ranged stacks before dying is important.
Tier 5: Similar to the ogres you overestimated the hydras, because they are so slow the rarely do anything in a fight and they slow down your hero in adventure map, their only good quality is to serve in defending a castle unless you have a massive stack of centaurs to defend. Also there are the power liches, they are great at clearing the map and farming skeletons I would put them in A tier.
Tier 6: I agree completely
If this was my list I would take the cost of the buildings and units at least somewhat into consideration, but if we want to rate the creatures purely with stats in mind this would be my opinion.
Thank you for reading have a good day!
Two years old! Someone raised you right :D
Tier 1: I like where your head is at! Sprites don't clear walking troops as well at all. Ranged troops are a breeze to deal with using sprites though!
Tier 3: I completely, 100% agree. This is a miss on my end! If the Mummies are close at all to Pikemen, then their curse puts them above for sure!
Tier 4: 1 speed for 20+ hit points feels like a rough trade off to me, but like with Tier 1 I think your explanation is completely valid and we are looking at the same piece of art and just appreciating different parts a little more or less :)
Tier 5: Honestly, that may be the best explanation anyone has ever given me for the value of liches. They are VERY expensive (we didn't really take cost into consideration here like we could or should have as you pointed out with dwelling costs) but they give you skeletons essentially for free. I like that point! Hydras... oh Hydras... always a day late and a dollar short I fear. They are maybe the best garrison unit, but is that enough to keep them high up in the tiers? Again, I think you have an excellent argument due to speed in battle and on the adventure map.
Tier 6: I wonder about your thoughts on Paladin/Crusader vs Cyclopes? Especially due to the cost in crystal for the Cyclopes?
Thanks for taking the time to write such a long and thought out discussion!! :)
@@Phixfox Crusaders, Paladins and Cyclopes are all great if you get them early enough, but they can't really compete against other stronger tier 6 units. Cyclopes can sometimes attack 2 enemies on the same turn and paralyze, but the paladins/crusaders can attack 1 enemy twice every turn (this does so much damage if the enemy can't retaliate). I like the crusaders more since they are more consistent than the cyclopes even tho the cathedral and the units are more expensive. If you have 1 or more crystal mines the cyclopes are easier to recruit than Crusaders.
also for tier 4 creatures I was talking about the regular swordsmen and ogres, not the upgraded ones.
I personally think Rocs vs. Vampires (un-upgraded) leans in favour of the Rocs from where I’m sitting. They can be blessed for 8 damage and benefit from morale. If you put 10 Rocs vs. 10 vamps, the rocs would come out on top.
And if you can amass 15 sulfur in week 1 you could rush Bone Dragons instead of getting vamps too.
Not to mention cost of dwellings and first possible day to acquire. Team Roc!
Aha! Nice to see you over here on youtube as well as on Reddit! 😄
I think that is a great argument that you are making there! One thing that I did not do nearly so good of a job pointing out is exactly what you said: morale does not affect the undead! That must be accounted for and overall I would say is a net negative for all undead troops given that the ability to occasionally go twice in combat is fairly easy to achieve for other factions and wandering heroes to achieve.
I just ran 10 Rocs and 10 Vampires through the Battle Simulator on fheroes2 and I was surprised to find this: without positive morale and even going first, the Rocs only won 2 out of 20 attempts! However, when I gave them positive morale their wins boosted to 5/10. It is a very small sample size, but I think that it highlights the point on morale.
When I pit 25 Rocs against 25 Vampires, Vampires win nearly every time, especially if Vampires attack first (no retaliation). When Rocs attack first they won twice out of 33 attempts.
When we consider the way damage is calculated, however, I think that creatures with a higher range get better at 10 or less creatures in a stack, and this is how I mean: at 10 or less creatures in a stack, the AI will roll the dice to determine the damage for EACH creature. If the stack size is greater than 10, it will roll the first 10 and extrapolate that data to the rest of the creatures in the stack as a sort of average. It feels like, although I struggle to account for it, that the way damage is calculated favors each creature from a high variance damage stack rolling rather than getting an average.
I am sorry for the essay, but you put an excellent comment out and I had to do some digging! But truly, the cost of the dwelling, the accessibility, and all the other factors mentioned makes me think that Rocs are still the way to go even if they do lose in the head to head comparison (this video is rife with examples where the 1 on 1 fight winner is ranked lower due to various factors).
Thank you SO much for the great comment! Thoughts?
@@Phixfox strange I didn’t see your reply until just now 😳
I’m not surprised the vampires would fair much better when they have the first strike, especially when considering the Necromancer always has access to the haste spell. Factoring in a level 1 Necro vs. A level 1 wizard leading an army of end of week 2 creatures, say the Necro went for vampires over bones being deprived of resources becauses it’s on impossible.
You have your 8 vampires vs. 8 Rocs
Let’s say mages and liches are off the table.
Your rocs have +1 morale and stoneskin and boars had the first move
(Unless the wizard attacked purposefully without boars to give the rocs the first move on attack)
That first strike might ultimately determine how the battle goes because the vampires are the best chance the Necro has at taking down the golems, whereas with boars and halflings for support you can easily handle the remaining Necro troops.
I kind of made this wizard vs Necro,
But I guess my point is admitting your research has highlighted how integral vampires are to their faction whereas Rocs are more complementary to their role posturing. 🤓
@@xkimo19 Well said, and a good read when it comes to theory in army composition and identifying our win and loss conditions in a battle. Thanks for the well thought out response!
Why you do not consider cost at all? I think it's fairly important in a game
You are absolutely correct, and my small disclaimer at the 6 tier creatures does not do justice to the Barbarian or Knight factions, especially when I lament that there units are "just alright".
The two things that went into that decision making process were this: 1) It was already going to be a long video without diving into the cost of the dwelling/prerequisite buildings, and 2), this video is meant to set up a follow up video ranking the factions that WILL go into the costs associated. But it's a secret, don't tell anyone 😉
@@Phixfoxidk if I missed the video ranking the factions but I can’t find it and still waiting for it soooooooo.. 😂
@@croatiahrvatska7402 I LOVE that you have asked! I got overwhelmed because of how comprehensive I want to make the video. It is still on the horizon, just percolating at the moment :)
@@Phixfox can’t wait for it! Considering our opinions are so different on a lot of things it would be amazing to see how you rank factions. My S tier Necromancers
Necromancers are AWESOME! No complaints from me there :) I will renew my vigor with that endeavor!
Good Video one thing i don't really like about heroes 2-3 is that speed is tied too who is acting first and how far they can move in battles instead off doing too stats like speed and initiative when they made the game.
I think that is a great great point and makes for more inflexible troops because those two stats are tied. The idea that a creature doesn't have to move very far but still gets to attack first would be great for nimble creatures like halflings!
Yeah it have allways bother me and made the game a bit worse for me, also makes the slow/haste spell much better then it should be in my mind still love the game alot played it so long ago and wanna play some more when more updates is coming out maybe with other players but iam not that good at the game.
I have no Idea about the tier list becouse i don't play heroes 2 much but i like these kind of videos and hope you make more of them in the future. Two thing i would change is problely Cyclops over paladin and Bone dragons over Phoenixs becouse you can get bone dragons on week one i know you don't calculate in the building cost so phoenix is problely better unit so thats fine with me too put them over bone dragons but cyclops must be better then paladin at least i thing so even if they cost more with building and unit thanks for the video hope for more.
@@Borasdk Aha! I overlooked that and you are the first person to point that out! Cyclops over paladin is a very very good call and I believe the correct call! Perhaps nearing two hours I should have taken a break so I could have my wits about me :D
Thank you for the kind words, I will plan on doing more like this in the future! I know that fheroes2 does have plans to have online play someday, but that is still some time down the road (first up is the completion of the map editor). Perhaps someday I will see you in a friendly game! Otherwise, I appreciate your input very much ☺
@@Phixfox multiplayer should work through programs like Hamachi that simulates LAN connection. I played Heroes 2 and 3 a few times that way many years ago (before fheroes2 or VCMI), so it should work here as well.
@@KlaymenSk Very true! I am only vaguely familiar with Game Ranger as an alternative to Hamachi, but the online play is certainly possible! I love seeing communities in other games come together to create their own ranked ladders on third party websites and then matchmake through such clients! What HoTA has done for Heroes 3 in online play is stupendous to keep interest going for new and long time fans. I am not so interested in competitive Heroes, but I love nice friendly games ☺
Were there any hiccups in the Heroes 2 Hamachi use that you remember?
Despite not having played this game in 30-odd years, I knew immediately what, if anything, was going to be classed as better than Black Dragons.
I honestly cannot think of any game that has a unit that warps any scenario that they appear in! I am ultimately very glad that they are in the game though :)
My original comment was going to be : "every time i feel like having remarks about the ratings, you would reshuffle it and fix in the final review" ... but then the last two tiers came along... and i just had to jump in 😆
First off, and yes, i know it's a hard one and situational at best, but regarding Arch Magi and Champions...... these are highly comparable, on their best and on their worst of days. And i would be hard pressed to decide which would a take, 10 of the former or 10 of the latter. The answer of course depends on what else you are packing, and what niche you need to fill in your stacks. But in the end, it pains me to say it (as the wizards are my favorite faction), but i have to take into account the roll they fill and how easy it is to substitute them with something else. And the answer is, ranged damage dealers a dime a dozen, compared with units that provide the ability to always go first. I mean sure, going first doesn't always give you the battle, but it can, depending on your choice of spells and hero stats. You can literally win battles without the enemy getting a turn. Something that is even more valuable on the strategic-adventure map, where attrition matters. And then there's logistics. I don't mean the speed of movement here, but how easy it is to make these units available. I know you don't consider cost-efficiency into this scaling, but availability is the best ability, right? And it's so easy to get champions compared to arch-magi. Not only is it easier, faster and cheaper, they are less prone to dying, because they don't draw the ire of enemy flyers as much as magi do. So you can have more of them. And because they also move faster, you can be more choosy as to how you use them.
Second one, and this is much less subjective, i have actually used and fought green dragons with bone dragons and Phoenixes. There's no contest here. Yes, the greenies are slow in comparison, but unlike the case of magi and champions, the stats are just too overwhelming. Hit points, attack, defense, damage, and spell immunity. They just trump both bone dragons and Phoenixes. I have never been able to buff them enough to level the field, unless i have fought extremely low level heroes. As to the Phoenix VS bone dragon, then yeah, the ability to go first is paramount here, though it is still a hard choice, due to inherent squishiness of the Phoenix with only 100 hit points and no growth bonus.
Well..... that's it. I would nitpick about some other minor shuffles i may have done here and there, as frankly, i don't think they would really matter, and most of those would be situational at best. Good video mate, keep them coming!
I am glad that you did comment and gave us the opportunity to hear your thoughts! 😃
It is such a great conversation! They both do what they do so well, and rather than choosing between good and a bad choice we are choosing between two good choices! 7 speed HAS to count for something! It simply must! And I love your point that others can provide ranged damage, making the Arch Magi role less exclusive. We didn't take into account the cost of these factions in this video, but at this point it feels important to bring up the point that you noted: we have to say that 375 per Champion with 30 Wood and 6000 gold for the dwelling looks SO much better than 700 per Arch Magi with 7500 gold, 10 wood/ore, and 5 gems/crystal/mercury/sulfur (plus 5 on each resource because of the library). I think that as a tie-breaker, there is no debate in that instance :)
I think you're absolutely correct about the value of Green Dragons. They don't hold up to Titans, but they do hold up to everyone else, and I think that was a miss on my part (addendum video someday lol). I do think I undervalued the Bone Dragons and Giants, funny enough though. They were ranked correctly, but the gap was closer than I had it in my mind originally. The same argument on speed between Phoenixes and Bone Dragons as we had with Champions and Arch Magi comes up, but the extra damage and 50 HP on Bone Dragons is so good... I still value the 7 speed, but I feel better about Bone Dragons now than I ever have before.
The nitpicks are where we get real value out of these videos! I take no offense and I am so happy that you are taking the time to let me know what you think :)
@@Phixfox glad we feel the same way about that mate, looking forward to more videos!
Hello from Heroes Succession Wars mod. I wouldn't put any level 1 creature into S tier, even the skeletons. At 4 hitpoints even if it's compared to other level 1 creatures it might be S tier, but compared to anything above you can't have it as more than A tier. even big stack of skeletons isn't very dangerous to a good h2 player, the only exception would be teleport spell to guarantee the fist big hit but it doesn't make them S tier
I absolutely agree with you -if we are ranking all creatures top to bottom! Funny enough, if I am building the perfect army with five creatures, it probably goes Titans, Black Dragons, Phoenixes, Crusaders and Gargoyles. Why Gargoyles? As a 6 speed flying creature they can position before my Black Dragons and take a retaliation from some huge stack as needed (maybe that's better than having a squad of Crusaders in the army at times, and maybe not). Of course, the ranking changes drastically depending on if we are doing it tier by tier, first 5 into an army, top to bottom, or any other way we can think of.
Skeletons are actually an interesting pick for S tier in my opinion because they are SO AVERAGE! They don't fly, they don't shoot, and their stats are good but not great all things considered. Still, I do like that the HoMM2 manual calls them the best level 1 creature in the game because they have the HP and damage along with the necromancy.
I guess my point in this essay is that you have a very valid opinion, and I am so happy we have such a great game that allows for a variety of strategies and ways to win :D Hello to the Succession Wars mod players also and I hope you guys are having the best time ever playing some Heroes 2 ☺
I actually used gargoyles stack in one of the campaigns I recently played over gryphons or minotaurs. It was so fun. tactically they might be the perfect unit, because of how aggro they get from computer. after they died I swapped to hydras for the end battle.
That is a sort of benefit that I find more in Heroes 2 over 3 in that because each Castle can have 6 dwellings but heroes only have 5 slots, there is always someone waiting in the wings to step up when another stack gets exhausted. "Tactically they might be the perfect unit", I may end up quoting you on that :)
My biggest complain is that wolves, phoenix and crusaders are way too squishy
Yes! That tradeoff of speed for durability makes sense on paper, but when they go first every time it can be difficult (or impossible) to have them be effective without taking a ton of damage. It's why being average speed for Bone Dragons is sneaky good because in general they can play responsively.
@@Phixfox I think the biggest reason HoMM 2 is so unbalanced is because of the Well. Having 1 black dragon or titan a week would be much more balanced
@@pierreo33 Yeah I would love to see a few more Crusaders and Cyclops a week to bring up the overall power of those factions (rather than lose 2 dragons or titans a week), but I also think it was a purposeful decision in game balancing to have early, middle, and late game strong factions. Someday I will find a developer from the original game who will let me know their thought process!
I wonder why you didn't try the peasant apologist approach, and try to fool us into believing that you'd rank it as an S-tier creature! 😃 I have several comments, and there's more to come, as we discuss...
1. If you end your tier list by mentioning a neutral creature, and even rank it above black dragons, why didn't you bring in the neutral creatures in the first place? 😉 The ghost is a lvl 4 unit, a genie is a lvl 6 unit.
2. I wonder why you don't understand or get why the Iron Golem receives +2 attack when upgraded, and no more than +1 speed. And you are not the only one, who says something like that 😉 Steel is a stronger metal, therefore it hits harder, thus more attack skill. Speed? Well Steel is heavier than iron, so naturally it should become slower. But golems are created and controlled by magic. And in some myths, since the Steel Golem is tougher and heavier than the one of iron, the stronger magic seal can be contained within it. So... It gets a small speed buff...
3. I'd rank Steel golems a bit higher. Because of their monster toughness, they don't get much attention on the battlefield. Therefore they grow in numbers and snowball into bigger numbers than the veteran pikemen would... I believe... I want to believe it 😃 I looove steel golems! Those animation sounds, uf. And you feel that impact on their enemies, when they hit them. 😍
4. For some reason I would rank red dragons higher than black dragons. For more than one reason. They cost 500 gold and a whole 1 sulfur less than the black dragons. On a map with scarcity on ressources, this means a lot! I cannot get many titans on scarce maps! But red dragons are more likely to buy out. Plus, the dragon cities offer red dragons! That's neat!
5. I wonder why you'd value those centuars so highly, when they, as you said, are hard to cover up against melee creatures! I tend to abandon them rather quickly, because they die like flies.
I am so glad to have you here in the comments section ☺
1) That is a VERY good point! I wasn't sure how exactly to integrate the neutral creatures and I can honestly say that I don't feel qualified to discuss them in depth (nuances among elementals, for example). I suppose I may have to adjust that in the future, yes? But I am glad that the video had a twist at the end, all the same!
2) I LOVE that you are taking a practical and real world sense in explaining that buff to Steel Golems, and truly that is the way I want to approach all of the upgrades! Same reason the Giant and Titans are basically different creatures, because they basically ARE!
3) I suppose I could see myself into thinking about them more closely with their other Garrison comparison, the Hydra, a bit more. The idea is that eventually you MUST deal with them somehow, that their stats are tremendous despite their low speed, and they have the added benefit of reducing spell damage all make them a great unit. I still have not forgotten that my "Who Am I" run ran afoul of Golems 🥲
4) That comment about Red Dragons tickles a very nice spot in my brain! Dragon Cities coupled with the reduced cost... generally the 500 gold wont matter as much, but you are correct that the sulfur could ABSOLUTELY stop you from getting additional creatures, and clearly you would rather have 2 Red Dragons than 1 Black Dragon! You have given me a lot to think about here, especially the Dragon City comment! Good strategy sir!
5) I like things that go "pew pew pew"! Do you believe that they are worse than Halflings? Worse than Goblins? I really value their 5 HP because that allows them to scale into the late game in a way that other level 1 creatures cannot, and I do think that they fill a nifty niche being the only Warlock ranged troop. Granted, when you have 3 flying creatures in your army you don't need to worry so much about ranged damage, but there is some strategic advantage to having a balanced attack in my opinion. Those were my general thoughts at the time, but to your point only if you can maintain a decent stack of them!
I humbly and patiently await your follow up thoughts 😁
@@Phixfox
4. I never go beyond red dragons. I rarely even use titans. They are too damn expensive when seeing things in the big picture. Those resources can be spend somewhere else to balance out the total cost to run a sizable empire. With unlimited resources and/or a garanteed win, sure, I'm gonna buy black dragons and titans :)
5. The thing about centaurs, in a warlock army at least, is that they are often too slow to shoot before getting hit. They are too hard to cover up, the hydras could help, but they are even slower than centaurs AND the ones who wanna piece of horse meat! Also... I agree on the benefits of the hydras. I love 'em just as much as you do! But they tend to be even MORE efficient if flyers don't fly away from it, because they want to hit your shooters, and instead go for you hydras! If you center your hydras and blitzkrieg 'em towards the middle of the battlefield, the AI will often close in on it, so you can beat 3-4 creatures all at once, once per turn! :D You need the have the hydras be registered as highest point of interest to the enemy hero!
@@TheStisen They really are expensive, and I am 100% on board with the thought process with the Red Dragons over Black Dragons argument on maps with scarce resources, but I must balk at avoiding Titans! Titans are truly SO expensive, but if I am not getting Titans then I definitely wont get Giants, and then I might as well not even invest in a Wizard castle in the first place! Although 5 Cyclopes beats 1 Titan in a head to head fight, I think that with reasonable support from other troops or a good heroes stats or spells that they can carry a fight.
Ooops, I started typing and then read "With unlimited resources and/or a guaranteed win, sure, I'm gonna buy black dragons and titans :) " 😂 My apologies, we are on the same page, friend 🤣
I agree very much on your point with the Centaurs. I feel like a person being walked through exactly why its a bad idea to go to a Volcano and touch the lava, but there is a part of me that still wants to even in the face of solid reason and facts 😁 I think everything you have said is correct and I may want to consider altering my in-game strategy a bit. For the purposes of the ranking video, are they less than an A tier creature? Below the Halflings? Into the B-Tier?
@@Phixfox I wish Green dragons were not the weakest out of the 3 colours, because in my opinion they look the best :D Upgrading them for 50 hp sometimes is not that big of a deal, but unfortunately their speed also changes with upgrades. In my opinion it's just hard to justify running with 5 speed units when you can get together a potent 6 speed army. Movement points are so essential its crazy
Hobbits, oh, I mean halflings, are better than centuars because of two things:
1) They stack up by visiting the popular map object: Halfling Holes
2) halflings are welcome in ANY army early/mid game composition. The centuars doesn't always fit well ( in a sorceress or a wizard army for example)
3) stack up defence, and your griffins easily get more efficient on the offensive AND defensive side, so the centuars will be left in your town faster than the halflings.
They need to stay in the same tier though.
Dragons and Phoenix's are the best because of Armageddon and surrender
I love the strategy very much! Worth noting that Phoenixes are immune to Elemental Storm and not Armageddon, but it effectively does the same thing minus a bit of potency. Combined with Diplomacy to reduce the cost of surrender, it's one of the most terrifying strategies in all of gaming :D
Dude, Vampires at A rank? You crazy? You should never risk your vampires ever.
I can't see a single situation where I would build vampires and potentially lose a few which would spell disaster for the rest of the game as now my Vampire Lord power stack is lower.
Vampires belong in C tier because their too valuable to risk in combat.
theres a tier 10 creature behind you
My wife says that its not real and it can't hurt me 😅