Ep 58: Waco Origins
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- Опубликовано: 28 янв 2024
- A Delta Force operator and a street cop break down the "whys" of the 1993 Waco siege and analyze it through the eyes of a Tier 1 assaulter and a cop. Who was to blame? The feds or the Davidians? How did this even happen?
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I am a self-proclaimed Waco expert (36 year educator). This might be one of the best, most thorough videos about the subject I have seen. Very well done. New subscriber here.
It really is and I met Byron Sage, one of the negotiators
you guys covered stuff I had only heard from him.
They covered a lot of important elements except they brushed past the most most important elements, which was that the main perpetrators were actually the ADL, not the ATF
How the ATF still exists after Ruby Ridge and Waco is unbelievable!
True story. I am Leo in Texas. My Captian now was 2 year DPS Trooper assigned to the crime scene after the fire. After a week on the scene, he returned to his his post in Weatherford Tx. Two weeks after returning the Major at Tx Dps, contacted him asking did he pick up and take any Fully Auto M-16. In the retreat ATF just left them there and there were 40 Fully auto M-16 unaccounted for. True story.
There must have been a lot of promotions in the FBI and ATF as the result of this heroic operation.
I know the undercover agent that was in the compound the day of the raid. When he left the compound before the raid, he went to the undercover house and called the assault commander to tell him that " They know we are coming!". The assault commander asked him questions, " What do you mean, they know we are coming". The commander then told everyone at the staging area to "HURRY UP. They know we are coming. They load up and move out. The undercover agent then went to the staging area, to again warn them, but they had already left. We know what happen after that.
Was he expecting them to stop everything ?
The ATF shot first. Look at the front door. In the initial pictures it is riddled with holes bullet from the very onset of the raid. David attempted to de-escalate and was immediately shot while at the front door. Later pictures show bullet holes began to be seen around the windows as the Davidians returned fire and received fire from the ATF. Clear, unequivocal evidence as to how the firefight progressed.
There were photographers there with the ATF. Where are the tapes from the start of the raid?
Sat thru a lecture with two ATF Agents that were there. Both said Davidians shot first for what’s that’s worth
@@davidklein6160 The winner writes history. That is all that is worth.
Wendigoon has a great breakdown of Waco and Ruby Ridge.
Wendigang👆
Yet he's wrong
@@Kasaron He forgot to cover how the ADL were the main instigators
@@12345shushi he also gets the chemistry wrong, ignores the fire Marshall reports, and several other facts wrong.
Great episode. One additional point to remember - the 2A does not specify which arms are protected - all "arms" are protected. So the entire basis of the ATF raid was to enforce unconstitutional laws which should never have existed.
Agree but the real reason was that suspected them of incest and sex with children. They used the weapons charges to get the warrant. Also molestation or touching a child is a federal crime.
@@randyschmidt19 that goes on all of the time and the govt does little to help. They were only concerned with the guns
@@DGillian6406 so you haven't studied the facts of this case at all is what you just told me.
@@DGillian6406aweful take… think about the kids you sicko
@@randyschmidt19was not in the ATF wheelhouse, and at anytime local cops/fbi/LEO as a whole could have picked up David outside of the compound on runs, or in town. They purposely chose what they did, which led to the direct deaths of all these people. I've been to mount Carmel 8 times now (don't go anymore because of the guy that owns it being a crazy person, and puts the remaining Davidians down), and it would have been very easy to pick David up and arrest him
I worked with the Team Sargeant that trained the ATF for the initial raid. They had to leave for obvious reasons before the raid. He had the ATF commander sign a letter saying he didnt recommend the plan they were going to use. He use to have the letter hanging above his desk.
I wonder what an Israeli agent from the Mossad was doing inside the church?
That guy was delta ? It was WADE ISHIMOTO from EAGLE CLAW who was there along w either 3rd or 7th group men who wanted no part in this
@@budgibson185 wouldn’t surprise me 🤣🤣
@@budgibson185Do you blame him?
This is great, looking forward to the Ruby Ridge episode 🍻
Me too!
Such a great podcast. They did a great job explaining and being unbiased. Hearing some details about Ruby Ridge I didn't know were extremely heart breaking.
Keep up the great podcasts bringing truth to light & getting into topics other people won’t! Keep killing it Gents💯
Great podcast you guys have here, I’m calling it now that it will blow up to 100k subs sooner than later. Good job boys.
Thanks! Really appreciate the support!
I’m not blowing smoke. In my opinion. This episode is better than any JRE episode.
Watch tomorrow episode about the MOVE cult in Philly 1985!
This was a great show. Always been interested in “Waco” as a topic. Well done👍
What about the stories of “DOD Advisors” at the Waco siege?
They were just that advisors… as far as I know there isn’t much of a story there, they were on the ground giving advice. I could be WRONG, I haven’t dug very deep into that, I just don’t come across anything during my research, let me know if you find something or know of something different, would love to know more.
Wade ISHIMOTO from DELTA was there and trained the atf before lol
@@budgibson185a lot of units come up to the compound and train and we give them some training, it’s not some deeply embedded long term relationship people want it ti be, there is so no conspiracy here to uncover. The ATF screwed this all up all on their own.
I took a class last summer with some ATF instructors. Ruby Ridge and Waco got brought up by another student and the instructors, in 2023, were still reluctant to talk about it. They did acknowledge they f*cked up though
Glad to hear that! We have to learn from our mistake so we don’t repeat them!
What kinda class? How to shoot innocent people? Dogs?
The best documentary I have seen so far is Waco: A New Revelation, and it is free in full form on RUclips. There is so much more to this (on top of) what has already been stated
Anything that drops any “truth” has been scrubbed from most platforms (especially RUclips). There used to be many documentaries on RUclips that I wish i downloaded. James Corbett does some great work, I think you can still access his websites.
His 9/11 documentary and his OKC documentary are 2 of his best works
Watch Waco The Big Lie by linda Thompson
I highly recommend these documentaries.
LOVE YOUR PODCAST!!!! truth angle is refreshing and authentic. Was Delta on scene??? As advisors even??? Keep up great work!!!!
Wendigoon has a great breakdown on Waco as well. As others have mentioned, an HRT sniper that was there has done interviews as well
Myles Powers has much better videos, and unlike wendigoon, Myles doesn't get the science wrong.
Is he honest in the interview?
@@slightlyseen6767 seems to be. He definitely said the ATF and government acted horribly. They were there as Recon basically...but who shot the dude on the water tower. Seems like that would have been an HRT sniper??? He was critical of both Waco, Ruby Ridge incidents and the current state of the DOJ
@@MrCashewkitty Thanks I'm going to try and find the interview. It's amazing what age and perspective will do
@@slightlyseen6767 ruclips.net/video/aEVF0LZnM94/видео.htmlsi=yWN1XBQxprBM6ixf
Keep it up guys. I think you’ll be super popular podcast real quick.
I've walked the scene. It's actually located miles outside of Waco. Underground concrete bunkers and tunnels, buried school bus, "swimming pool" (water storage), yada, yada.
Excellent show fellas.
There’s a couple of podcasts with Chris Whitcombe (former FBI HRT) that are pretty interesting when it comes to Waco. Would be great if you could get him on!
He’s a liar and garbage ! Heard both recent podcast he did and he’s a fuggin liar
This was a phenomenal podcast.
A good one. You did your research. It should be a lesson learn for both ATF and FBI.
Fabulous work here boys
Awesomeness, great job guys
All we ever ask is to be honest
Gotta hand it to you guys, you do a great job at covering things.
Watch tomorrow episode about the MOVE cult in Philly 1985!
I read something that said in addition to some Delta Force guys on the ground at Waco there was an SAS guy there as well who was part of an exchange program with Delta. Probably no truth to that, but I remember seeing it in some article.
So what are thier military backgrounds? One was delta and the other guy was a cop?
You can go back and forth over whoever is wrong or right but the second the AFT excluded exculpatory evidence and lies about evidence to the judge regarding the CPS investigations they were wrong, and the judge/SA should have demanded to see reports from the undercover agent
Couldn’t agree more!
I’d even argue that as the CPS stuff isn’t under the jurisdiction of the federal government and certainly not the ATFs jurisdiction it should have no bearing on the raid and what led up to it at all.
@@jddrafts100% agree
yeah, but what I heard was Janet Reno would only go along with that if someone kissed her. so .... there ya go.
@@thejohnbeck that’s gross 🤮
Baker act is a mental health code. Hospitalization against ones will based on a liability that a person may hurt themselves or others.
😂😂 that laugh in response to his nickname😂😂😂😂😂
I’m curious what you guys are talking about because I’ve seen a couple of them and I do remember the delivery driver. On Netflix one it had the Branch Davidian members and also the ATF/ law-enforcement even had a reporter talking about it and I think that was a good representation of both sides. I’m at the 59:53 mark.
Yeah i like this type of podcast your others are great to!
It’s definitely the ATF’s call on firefighters being cleared with potential explosives involved. Must be cleared to enter before you enter the scene.
The same FBI HRT team that was at Ruby Ridge was onsite in Waco, in fact the HRT Sniper Lon Horiuchi who shot and killed Vicki Weaver was also alleged to have fired shots into the Branch Davidian Buildings.
The "kiss your dog goodbye" meme regarding the feds has merit.
I wish you would do a podcast about the Feds involvement with all the cocaine coming into the states in the 80's-90's and how the money was used to fund cia's involvement funding the precursor to what what eventually happen in the Middle East. Freeway Ricky has talked about it at great length,he airs out the feds involvement because he worked with them during the timeline it took place. Plus he served a load of time. FYI I love what y'all are doing with your podcast.
This was awesome.. 💯💯💯👊
Great channel, just came across you guys and this episode was great, i didn’t grew up in the u.s and im just finding out about both this incidents. Just 1 question: what happened to the guy feeding false information?
FBI probable gave him a job
Yes, several of the agents went Winchester along with several agents down and needing evacuated….
Randy Weaver was never a Green Beret. He was assigned to an SFG as a support troop.
I’ve actually tried to nail that down! There is a picture of him with a green beret but I was also told people that early on even the support people assigned to the unit were mandated to wear the green beret as a unit headgear. Is that right?
@@brenttucker6246 Now, I can't be totally sure. My source is the sworn testimony of one of the US Deputy Marshals who investigated Weaver in 91.
law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/weaver/dojrubyIVB.htm
This is from a website that's maintained by a law professor. I don't have the original documents unfortunately. According to this report, the Deputy Marshals reviewed his DD-214 as part of the investigation and it showed that he was not a Green Beret, but was trained as a combat engineer. He did claim to locals to have been a Green Beret and that he participated in anti-drug missions for the CIA. All that said, I'm not familiar with the practices at that time regarding selection or what officially made someone a Green Beret. That doesn't make the way the USMS and the FBI conducted themselves okay or any better.
Thanks for the follow up! I’ll read that and keep digging for the ruby ridge podcast!
@@brenttucker6246 Looking forward to hearing it!
Is that a Mandela Effect or am I just a dumbass
Why do tax collectors need designated marksmen, operators with automatic weapons, and armored vehicles?
The basis for the search makes anything found as a result fruit of the poisonous tree .
I agree. As we've seen throughout time when the government has an agenda it turns into "it's better to ask for forgiveness then permission" sad.
Recently found this podcast and it's outstanding, you guys are awesome. 🇺🇸🤘🇺🇸🤘🇺🇸🤙
It's been years since I've gone down rabit holes on Waco and ruby ridge. But one of the crazy ones is that the"sniper" that shot randy weavers wife, was at Ruby ridge. I think I read that mcveah was passing out flyers with his home address at gun shows.
Fun fact. That sniper was at Waco too.
Damn. I don't believe in coincidences at all. Those are wild facts.Mind blown.
The laugh right after Mr. Retardo had me rolling
Why did they have training grenades? They were hyper imaginative and thought tanks and helicopters would come for them.
Yeah, the Brent dude doing all the talking glossed over a lot from the LE perspective. The other fat guy with the sun glasses tried to make some points, but he appears to be subordinate to Brent, wasn't assertive with his good counter-points, as if to not rock the boat with Brent's obvious bias. Brent's initial disclaimer about not being a right wing anti-gov type was nullified 20 minutes into the podcast. I mean jeez, Brent was giving David Koresh a verbal handjob. Reminded me a bit of how Trump compliments and admires Vladimir Putin for being such a strong, smart, clever leader, and makes excuses for his negative traits and behavior. Also with Kim J. Un, at least at first there for a while. 🤮
With the ATF being deceptive about the raid, can they be trusted about the issue of converting the weapons to full auto?
The National Guard accidently killed those folks. ( when they did the breach) the M60-A-3. Tank had a ejection port on the Main gun.They were planning on ejecting (C.S gas) and making entry.But what they forgot was (CS gas) is highly flammable. 😢 and that's the truth from a real soldier. 😢😢😢😢
That was a CEV aka Combat Engineer Vehicle, which is on an M60 chassis. But there was also Bradley’s and M1 Abrams involved. It’s further proof the government will use anything necessary against its own citizens.
CS isn’t the flammable part the pyrotechnic to burn it is super hot.
CIA needs to go, ATF needs to go, DEA needs to go, and the FBI needs an overhaul.
On the CIA ...so...who takes over for foreign intel ? Think before you post .
Dude you didn't mention the steel doors that went missing. And the ATF and FBI said that the doors melted. And when they found one of yhe doors but didn't find the other door that showed that the ATF fired through the closed door.
Funny bru, a dog started off the Ruby Ridge fisaco as well..
There's the dog meme for a reason.
Gun show huh, wonder why they’d have dummy grenades? I know every time I go to gun shows they have de-milled grenades at half the booths. They’re cool novelty stuff.
Delta was there and trained the ATF for that raid
This podcast was horrifying. The hosts spend the entire time saying "Yeah, they shot an unarmed guy in the back 14 times, but they should have all just complied."
Ummmm... excuse me? If you want to talk about holding people to higher standards, we need to name, shame, and purge the agents responsible. I want to be pro LEO, but we need the loyalty to the brotherhood to take a back seat to doing what is right.
20 people flee a burning building and they are shot. Where is the investigation to prove that it was self defense on the agents side? The lack of clear facts is clearly an incident of the government investigating itself and finding nothing wrong.
To be clear, there is a difference between incompetence (which was on full display), bad luck and misunderstandings (which ran rampant), and what I am referring to which is law enforcement intentionally crossing the line and getting away with it.
You’re missing the first link in that chain of why things turned out the way they did. The Order/ Bruders Schweigen.
Can you explain this please. I'm a little slow today.
Yep
the atf was on the chopping and needed a win isn’t really disputed. The AG and congress was pretty pissed after they murdered Vicky weaver
love the podcast! Thank you. I have studied a ton about what happened in Waco in 1993. I have spoken to Waco survivors both in person an via messenger. the mean stream narrative is far from the truth. I would love to talk more about the truth.
There has literally never been a big enough deterrent to stop any crimes. Whether it’s been jail, losing hands for theft or death.
Same for terrorism
Koresh did not seem Jim Jones caliber.
Do you really think a human bone can stop a tank? Critically think my people.
The alternative is the tank was so bogged down in the bodies that it got stuck, like how tanks can get stuck in deep mud... Which story sounds better to the public?
It was the gym where it broke down.
Watch Ted Gunderson talk about OKC.
Ya know what I mean Vern
@1:45. The 30ppl shot was captured by ISR. You can see controlled bursts firing into that egress point, apparent shooters executing a peel. It’s also the location where the women and children were found. This is all in Waco:Rules of Engagement
Furthermore the Texas Rangers sued the DOJ over the coverup. The feds refused to turn over the crime scene until after they bulldozed the scene and critical evidence disappeared (front door).
What Delta operators went to work that day?
I saw an interview with a FBI HRT guy who said they came to advise.. told them NOT to engage the branch davidians and left. At least that’s what he said. He was on Andy Stumpfs podcast
@srsmedic8285 there is FLIR footage of two guys dropping people on the back side of the compound.
Do you ship/post your cigars to Isle of man 🇮🇲
Where on the Isle of Man are you?
Were the SAS there?
Yes, one SAS operator was there as advisor whilst on secondment to Delta.
I swear, Brent said Boobie Ridge around the 6min mark.
I really want to hear more about Boobie Ridge!
Haha it does sound like that!
Being DAVIDS age roughly
Stix had a song mr ROBOTO, david had bad timing for nickname, that must of stuck for 3counties of recommendation.
I heard there was fuckery abound when it came to Waco.. I didn’t realize it was this bad. Jeezus this made me real angry at the federal government
It blew my mind too… the more I dug the more I found… just an outright debacle.
@@brenttucker6246 if even 25 percent of what you said was true.. that means the the some federal agent’s essentially murdered some citizens because they were weirdos. We can’t have that.. especially when there’s been zero accountability
Wait till you find out that delta was advising them on the ground
@@zacnoding12haha they didn’t listen to any of the advice then
That's the point of this podcast. To make you angry at the federal government TODAY for stuff from decades ago. Congratulations, you've had your emotional buttons pushed. The timing of these particular podcast topics - ruby ridge, Waco - IS NOT an accident or coincidence to what's going on with the right wing right now in the US.
It would be very interesting to get both your takes on PATCON in the 90’s and the accusations about involvement with Timothy Mcveigh.
Also after OKC about Terrance Yeakey one of the first police officers to show up at the bombing who was later found beaten, slashed, and a mile away from his car then his death was ruled a “self harm”?(RUclips sucks)
The fuckin 911 call about the bombing that was fuckin minutes early before the blast
The ATF office empty, yet was the target ?????
I've done a good bit of research, came to the conclusion that OKC was false flag.
The Yeakey shit is wild
McVeigh was sheep dipped. He’s on video after all of this went down. Check out James Corbett’s investigation on OKC
wasnt Lon h. present at waco and ruby ridge, guy gets around
A lot of fruits of the poisonous tree
I remember being in Alaska at Ft Wainwright when this happened. They played CNN in 93 all the time on every military post . So where ever you went this was going on the post . Btw have ? I heard the CAG boys were called in for this as advisor true or false ?
Sounds like they just made shit up as they went along
They've been doing that for a long time.
No more free Waco's
Look, those folks were weird but the feds killed them because they wanted to. I watched the live stream of the ATF shooting fire into that building. I was a freshman in college.
I was 13 at the time at the hospital getting ready for surgery it was on all the TV's at the hospital. I can remember my father saying more so to himself out loud and my mom getting pissed"what has out America turned into,damn Democrats" I was too young to understand back then. My dad is a Republican and my mom is a Dem.
I was a sophomore and im a Texan.
After Ruby Ridge. Then this happened.
It set the view I have for the government. Turned out I was correct in my understanding. They are not for us. This is blatantly clear.
You did not mention the non news spectators and the effect it had on the Feds? Notably Timothy McVeigh who sold merchandise out of his car and "inspired" him in a very bad way. The analysis was enjoyable, but the overall pace was a tad slow IMHO.
I agree with feeling of being slow but it's always a balance of a lot of information and entertainment, I leaned on the side of information. I had 6 pages of notes and actually just skipped over the Timothy McVeigh part you mentioned! Great catch. Thanks for watching though and maybe we'll speed it up a tad for Ruby Ridge or whatever we do next!
The funniest part was when you mentioned it's okay for patrols to shoot into the bushes, and I mistakenly thought you meant police car patrols, which was hilarious. Interestingly, I live in the country just north of yours. It seems Ruby Ridge was largely censored here, possibly by Castro Jr. for reasons unknown.
watch the documentary waco: the rules of engagement. fantastic doco breaking down the ATF illegal and immoral acyions throughout the siege.
Some don't think Waco / Ruby Ridge would happen today, where feds attack American citizens, who are then forced to respond before being killed???
***See Jan 6*** "We make great pets" ~ Jane's Addiction
The last 9 years of MAGA has drawn all the religious kooks, militias, white nationalists and 2A fetish nuts out in the open to be identified and cataloged. It's been a huge intel score, up to and including Jan6. When it's time, US Gov will send the right wing freaks and weirdos back under the rocks they crawled out from under. These things run in cycles. This is just another one.
8am not a minute late fuck yeah
Love the enthusiasm lol hopefully you enjoyed the episode!
41:00. He gets Koresh for Isaiah 45:1. In the English you will see Cyrus which was Gods anointed. Cyrus in Hebrew is Koresh. He is using both the names David and Koresh to say that he is Gods anointed and King.
The more of this type info comes out the harder it is to be pro govt. It is so gut wrenching when the people put in place to protect us turn out to be our enemies. Why can’t people in power/not in power just do the right thing? I find myself doubting everything including military & law enforcement which used to be to me untouchable. I’m 20 ur retired veteran & my father was law enforcement.
That's the point of this podcast. To make you angry at the federal government TODAY for stuff from decades ago. Congratulations, you've had your emotional buttons pushed. The timing of these particular podcast topics - ruby ridge, Waco - IS NOT an accident or coincidence to what's going on with the right wing right now in the US.
Infinite respect for the podcast and hosts.
The ATF and FBI both escalated this situation as the tend to all situations.
They came looking for blood. When they got the poopy end of the stick on day one they decided they were gonna kill.
So they did.
In no way does that say or imply everything BDs and DK did was acceptable.
What logical person trusts these organizations?
I live in the Rockies, have been here since’74 after EAS . My sister was visiting from the east coast at the time . Ranae and I had three children also, at that time . Not only was Randy Weaver a Green Beret but so was Marshall William
Deegan who was killed along with young Sam, his dog, and Randy Weavers wife . Uniguely Deegan was caught in a crossfire, fed auto weapons fire . All deaths from the hands of the Feds ! Lon Horiuchi the fed sniper is on the record, stating he targeted Vickie Weaver as she was considered the matriarch of the family . Vickie had their baby in her arms when tough guy Horiuchi shot her in the face . Look at where we are now ! Feds making excuses to murder innocents . Not only that, where do we get “callouts” like “he was Clinton-cided” ! We’ve got to completely flush the dc toilet !!!!
I add : my sister’s timing being here, her husband was a Marshall and she knew William Deegan personally . Of course she went off fully blaming the Weavers . I told her to give it time, the truth would come out ! What a corrupt bunch of alphabet agencies !!
Could it happen again? I would point out there are still people in Congress that sat on that hearing (Chuck Schumer for one)
Everything the ATF did was wrong so with that anything is possible, they started the shootout, they did this and they did that. With ATF’s conduct they are ultimately to blame for everything that transpired
Who’s the judge that signed that bs??
Something I never see talked about is who was driving the tanks. They were said to be from the Texas national guard armory. But what soldiers were driving these? Were they guardsmen? What pay status were they on? Did the governor activate them on state active duty? Was it just some turd AGR supply sergeants who really didn't know what they were doing but they were the only guy around and already being paid?
Goin down a hole here but along the same topics, Yall should check out a guy named Tommy Silverstein in ADX florence. dude def had a couple human rights violations against him. also check out kaczynki's manifesto. ive not read it but apparently alot of his predictions re: tech and humanity and govt have come to fruition. if you want to lump these two together, do and episode on ADX Florence. That place is nuts. i believe el chapo is a current resident as swell as boston bomber as well as original WTC bomber. but yea tommy silverstein killed a prison guard in the 70s and the feds kept that dude underground with lights on 24/7 at ADX until he died 50 years later. dude had some talented art.
We’ll definitely check it out! Thanks for the info and thanks for watching !
@@brenttucker6246 I wish you all the best. I share your same views on government and life in general. Thanks for your service.
Reading the unabombers manifesto in today’s context.. blows my mind. He was on to something
Waco: American Apocalypse. That is the Netflix series. As much as I like listen to this Delta force it paints ATF never they did as they were the bad guys and I think it’s a little more complicated than that. I’m not saying that the delta force is lying but I do think that he misrepresenting what actually happened.
He stated nothing but facts. The ATF screwed the pooch both as law enforcement and a tactical unit.
@@stevenabshire I agree with that, they took a situation and made it much worse. To say that the boys Davidians did not do anything is just flat out incorrect. I’m more likely to believe people that were actually there than whatever documentary he may have seen unless it shows people that were actually there when Davidians that were actually there A TF agents actually worked, hostage negotiators. If you get both sides, then yes, the ATF 100% created more problems negotiators even said that he they could’ve gotten more people out but they felt that they were pressed for time and federal government did a federal government gonna do and that was to end the conflict whether it’s right or wrong, they really don’t care you want it ended they’re going to end it.
Mr. Tucker, your podcasts are great and we (your listeners) can’t ever thank you enough for your service to America. With that being said, David Koresh (and many of his followers) were pederasts who inflicted untold amounts of sexual, psychological, and physical abuse on children. This was all laid out in numerous affidavits, Congressional testimony, and interviews of former Davidians. In your video you seem to take the position that the Davidians weren’t that bad (my words not yours to be fair). That is in fact, exactly what they were, bad, and much worse. Koresh and his followers were in violation of federal law, bottom line, and while every citizen had the right, and absolutely should, protect themselves if the USG overreaches, that should be done through the courts, and not with weapons. I personally know and have talked to several federal agents who were there on the ground, and the media and the American public (made worse through the abuse of social media) have distorted the basic facts that Davidians fired first upon federal agents who (whether the public likes it or not) were serving valid warrants signed by a judge. Several of those agents were killed. And of course the culmination of the tragedy with the loss of life of the adults in children in the compound is a dark stain on the our history, but people seem to forget (intentionally or not) that the Davidians had EVERY chance to at least let the children go. The Davidians succumbed to their own ridiculous beliefs and misplaced confidence and allegiance (as many victims of brainwashing and coercion people like Koresh inflict on them do) and ultimately it cost them and their children.
Many mistakes by the Feds?? Of course, not a doubt in the world. The ATF and FBI screwed up so many times during the 53 days. The Congressional testimony highlights a lot of these aspects, especially the testimony of gentlemen like Wade Ishimoto (former member of the Unit) and so on.
Yet at the end of the day, the Davidians were full of some of the worst scum around, who believed they were above and beyond the law. It was THAT mindset which largely contributed to the ultimate tragedy which unfolded.
Again, great episode and you guys put up some awesome podcasts…. I just felt it was important to add the context because, to be honest, we find ourselves in a day and age where people don’t like facing facts and assigning (or even shouldering when appropriate) the blame for outcomes when they decide to act as if the laws of our country don’t apply to them.
Thanks for the reply! Great well thought out reply and I ALWAYS appreciate that regardless if they agree with me or not. So that being said, this was a tough episode to land on a side for me to be honest. YES, they were not exemplary citizens. They were a cult. I probably did not go as hard on them as I should’ve. You’ll be hard pressed to find someone more law enforcement friendly than me, I’m a HUGE supporter of our law enforcement and I’m a big fan of comply with LE and you’ll never have a problem. The picking a side gets muddled when you find out that most if not all of the dirt on them were found out after the fact. CPS visited several times and found nothing, he married a 14 year old girl, it’s disgusting that it was legal but it was. The illegal guns were never proven before the raid and the warrant to get the road was mainly form a sole source individual. They should’ve done better police work before the raid and that type of professionalism would’ve carried over into a better planned and executed raid. Dozens of children died and that could have been avoided and should’ve been avoided. Why didn’t they just arrest him at work? On his daily run? He went to a blues open mic every Tuesday! The all out raid that was executed after they knew it was compromised also cost people their lives and that was the easiest call in the world to make. Just so many mistakes were made and kids paid the price and ATF agents also lost their life due to poor case management and poor planning. I just hate that part about it. Anyway, hope that clarifies my take on it. Thanks so much for matching!
You are spot on and I appreciate the follow up. Again, this episode is informative without the Hollywood BS in the recent docudramas released on Netflix etc. Personal and political agendas should never obscure how the public is informed of tragedies such as Waco. Not that my opinion matters but I agree with your take on arresting Koresh away from the compound (and I know this is much more routinely used as a technique these days).
I want to say that the lead CPS caseworker stated afterwards that she and her colleagues who went to Mt. Carmel were never actually allowed to contact the kids and that Koresh steered the entire interaction leading her to express major concerns to her bosses, but her bosses ultimately told her to shut it down and move on because of the relationships the Davidians had in town.
And I couldn’t agree more with how flawed the initial assault plan was (I hate using the word assault with respect to LEO enforcement operations) which predicated the entire debacle starting with ATF and ending with the FBI. It is clear along many points on the timeline that egos were too big amongst the senior agents and SES types in both agencies, and that possibly if a bunch of the people involved had asked some tough questions like “Hey, do we need to be here right now in this manner forcing a bad tactical situation when other, better, COAs are present?” maybe the subsequent loss of life could have been avoided.
The use of the stale info from the single source CI is amateur at best and your co-host got it right when he stated that this was indicative of the fed mindset at the time. Yet probable cause doesn’t necessitate overwhelming evidence at the end of the day, but rather “when there is a reasonable basis for believing that a crime may have been committed (for an arrest) or when evidence of the crime is present in the place to be searched (for a search)” (taken from Cornell law site). Investigators tend to find more/clearer/better evidence of crimes after executing warrants which can outweigh the strength (or weakness) of the initial PC that got them in the door to begin with. Tougher still with federal firearms statutes because of the sensitivity and proximity to our 2A rights for sure.
Ultimately, too many people lost their lives in this avoidable tragedy and I appreciate you guys working to provide different sides of the story because neither side deserved what ultimately happened. A further tragedy still when you consider Timothy McVeigh used this incident (and others) to justify his attack in OK City (the story of him being contacted by local Sheriffs at the outer perimeter in Waco is wild).
Looking forward to the Ruby Ridge readout from you guys! Thanks for being pro LEO and for everything you guys do. It matters.
Pivot: Reference USG Self-licking ice cream cone debacles…If you guys ever want to really dig into something with unanswered questions….has anyone ever talked to the five DS agents from Benghazi…. Or heard their Congressional testimony for that matter? Now that could be a story…..
@@scguy7442such a great response again, I read the whole thing, I did not know that about the CPS read out, funny you mention Benghazi because that’s something I’m working on!
Let me know when you start work on that one Sir and I can point you in the direction of some background and aftermath…. Asking for a friend lol
u say forty agents died, i think u mean four...kinda a big difference.
Age of consent in Texas is 17
Just another government cover 👆
The old man must die, the new man must be revealed ! The Holy Spirit’s strength is the word, power. From the womb of the morning! My mother is going to bring me to birth! God's Word will create him perfect. Well, who is that son Man-Child born of the woman of Rev. 12? The Seeds of the House of David had to be raised up through the Word/Holy Spirit The Hand Picked ones are first in the Harvest The Wave Sheaf.
What David Koresh ( sp ) didn't understand is that fornication is a sin..according to the Old Testament.
Another hustler of the word .
Just read the Bible....you don't need Church .
If you read the bible then you'll see that you do need church "Let us hold tightly without wavering to the hope we affirm, for God can be trusted to keep his promise. 24 Let us think of ways to motivate one another to acts of love and good works. 25 And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but encourage one another, especially now that the day of his return is drawing near." Hebrews 10. Church as in western culture isnt the ideal setting, but you are in fact supposed together and be with one another. You cant lone wolf it, thats not what Jesus taught or the bible taught. "by this all will know that you are My disciples, by the love that you have for one another." you cant love one another if you never meet together, you cant be brethren or love as brothers if you arent together. "A new command I give you, that you love one another." list goes on. Not being rude in saying this, but it's a common misconception that is very harmful.
@@hownoble6404 two or more people gathering in his name is a church..without the fanfare . It's not about a lone wolf ..you get right with the Almighty first . You can be at a dinner party and discuss the Bible .