Rumors, Bargains, and Lies - Babylon 5 Grey 17 Podcast - 80
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- Delenn meets with Neroon to discuss the future of their people, and Sheridan works to get the League on his side. Let's discuss Rumors, Bargains, and Lies!
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Hosts: Scott, Blake, Emily, Mike, Kevin, Justin, Jessi, and Nicole
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I’m one who thinks Neroon was going along with Delenn’s plan when he left. Also, the images Delenn was looking at of Minbar were historical. They show both day and night footage in the course of the few minutes she is talking with Lennier.
I think it was Justin who said that one of his problems with how Sheridan handled the whole league thing wasn't like him. However, we have had several examples of Sheridan using deception to achieve his goal in this show. He used a false distress signal to lure the Black Star into a kill zone. He also used a white star to lure in the shadows. So deception is a valid card in his playbook
Sheridan always uses deception.
1. Palming the energy cap before offering the chance for someone to shoot him with his PPG (Day in the strife)
2. Threatening Londo with a bluff that Earth was going to send observers after their recent conquest of a Narn colony (Coming of Shadows)
3. Loading the White Star with nukes ready to dive bomb the shadow city (Z'Ha'Dum)
4. Getting Garibaldi to oppose Kosh 2 openly in order to disguise an ambush (Falling toward apotheosis)
5. Directing the Earth security forces to search "down town" (Hunter Prey)
6. Going behind Earth's back to funnel unofficial aid to the Narn (Acts of sacrifice)
7. Hiding a Narn warship in Babylon 5 space and not informing Earth officials of its presence (Fall of night)
There are many other examples.
Franklin knew. Either Sheridan let him in on it or he figured it out, but he was enjoying himself just a little too much when he approached the ambassadors.
Point!
Ok I thought Scott was gaslighting me but after watching that bit again on Tubi. Delen and Lennier are absolutely looking a screensaver of the capital city before it was on fire and ruined. The shots they used are all shots they used before to show Minbar. Delenn takes about the memory she has of it and seeing it before the destruction as she remembers it. Lennier looking fondly going it really was beautiful. Because that was what it was before the strife. So I will defend Delenn, Lennier, and the Minbari with their crystal capital city.Scott once again trying to gaslight ppl 😂.
I think the way the script is written, they clearly are supposed to be looking at destruction. But, I am happy to take your hate. :)
@@Grey17Podcast well you have the script to double check it because I am down to do a patreon bet on this.
I do not have the script.
@@Grey17Podcast Alright I just feel the way that script is written is the opposite of how you feeling considering Delenn's dialogue "I think of my beautiful city in flames" not I see it. Talking about what she did and going to after she was told the news fighting broke out in the capital. The dialogue would be different if she was seeing it. Lennier looking fondly and commenting how beautiful it was. The images showing the ranger temple we saw before and a night time city view
Listening to the newbies guess what's going to happen is one of my consistent favorite things about this podcast--whether they get things right or wrong. To me it's a sign of how good the writing was on this show. Anyone can make something surprising if they pull plot points out of the air without developing things, but to surprise people and/or make things satisfying when you lay the groundworks episodes or even years in advance requires real skill.
I've heard 2 casts misinterpret the scene with Dalenn looking at the city... She's Not looking at what's happening Now. She's looking at old photos of how it used to be and lamenting about could have happened to it as they do not have the communications to know what is actually happening to it. Later they show what has happened to it and this scene serves as a contrast showing what it was like before.
The lines acted don't make that clear.
Beyond the Rim Spoilers:
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Ive always thought it was explicit that Neroon and Delenn had planned out what would happen in the Starfire Wheel, though it doesnt go down exactly the way they talked about. Neroon is surprised when Delenn stays in the wheel after the warrior caste leader leaves, and even says something like "she said she would leave after he did". If he knew what she was planning and didn't warn his leader, he was basically going along with it, he only really has two choices there: betray Delenn and warn his leader or side with her and don't. Neroon rescuing her and sacrificing himself wasn't part of their plan though, but Delenn (deliberately or not, thats debatable) kind of forced his hand.
It was obvious, it could have been guessed by just watching this episode (I did the first time), I honestly don't know what they are on about it's pretty blatant that next episode they both were following the plan they made here, and he even says it to Lenier before he takes her place.
The veterans need to up their game a bit , they are getting lots of stuff wrong.
The images were also not supposed to be of the war, that complaint made no sense.
This is one of my favourite episodes and yet I never noticed how Delenn and Neroon lead their castes into the hallway, or what Yedor (the Minbari capital) looks like on screen. Though to be fair, in the latter scene I am always too busy listening to pay attention to the CGI (and I watch the DVDs, so it's probably too blurry to see much anyways). Very excited for the next one as well, especially what the other newbies who couldn't join this one think!
Adding to the conversation about Minbar, peace and Yugoslavia, here is Mira Furlan's comment on the 'city in flames' speech from the B5 season by season guides (shortened a little): "That was completely... I mean, I saw Sarajevo. (...) I saw that city in my mind and the streets where I worked and where I lived. (...) I loved that monologue. It's so poetic, and it's not in any way preaching; it's just images that you have that are heartbreaking because nothing is there anymore."
She commented a lot on how several episodes touched upon reality (also e.g. 'The Illusion of Truth', with her experience becoming a target of war propaganda), and I think it absolutely shows in how deeply some scenes ring true. Her autobiography in particular speaks a lot of peace and nationalism and humanity, and I think to some degree it was written as a warning for American audiences. Definitely one of the books that have given me the most to think about.
"Zoot, Zoot, Zooty? That's a wonderful routine." lol
The highlight of the episode for me was Lieutenant Hubert Gruber running around a space ship in a robe.
In his Little White Star....
Also, he's the third in a run of slightly camp Minbari guest stars (also Atonement and Lines of Communication) that happens in mid season four.
Ah! Sheridan has an idea, and of course Ivanova was volunteered.
Yes, the serious part is all about the Minbari civil war. John Vickory is great as Neroon. Will Neroon be taken out next episode? Well, we shall see.
Be seeing you!
Sheridan definitely told the other staff. Franklin definitely knew and he didn't tell Ivanova because he needed her to act properly. He is definitely a manipulative person in his backstory. The best part is he never even lies. He does nothing to actually to trick them, just lets their paranoia take the wheel. We need more blood in case of emergency. True. Calibration of white star weapons. True. Nothing happened there. True. There is a threat to our mutual wellbeing...True.
GREY 17 - WE NEED THOSE 'BAD TO THE BONE' SHIRTS!!!
Please let us know when they're in the merch store
Working on it.
Interesting discussion about the ethics of Sheridan's ploy. Ever since my first watch, my reading had always been, "Oh ok, this is just Sheridan being a bit of an asshole after he returned from the dead. He's being 100% unethical, but that's OK."
If you really want to be controversial, you can draw a parallel between his actions and the paternalism of colonial powers. Good luck with that doozy! :D
This is the comment I was looking for, I think the people disagreeing with Sheridan didn't express well it wasn't the lying or bluffing (that he does a lot to get his way and no one had issues), it was that this plan was paternalism 101 but with actual good intentions (unlike real life), but the way they even talk a about the league it's super paternalistic.
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It's always interesting to watch two character scenes with Mira Furlan in them. Delenn's one on one scenes with G'Kar, Londo, Neroon are all amazing. She's a talented actor who brings out talent in other talented actors.
Commenting for the algorithm.
You are the hero we need.
I just got on and you guys are already on Beyond the Rim, that was fast.
these people need to grow up! You do what is necessary, how ever you can accomplish it. He presented facts, and provided information. They made a free choice! Life is nasty short and brutish. He didn't lie to anyone, he withheld information. Note who had what opinion when, "No, but understanding is not required, only obedience." Lanier.
These ppl would not of done well in grammar and HS where I grew up, plus I don't think the teachers would of liked them either.
....
Lanier rides a 1992 Kawasaki engine ZX-11.
These people?
@@Grey17Podcast Yeah, these ppl here, talking, upset at seeing how snausages are made
35:17 Be careful what you wish for…
Zooty-zoot-zoot is the thing that I hate the most about the show. I really hope that there'll be no such thing in the reboot.
For what little it's worth, every episode is coming up in my recommendations (I'm subscribed).
RUclips, DO BETTER.
Zooty... zoot zoot!