The Warning Christians Critically Need: Bethel, New Age, and the New Apostolic Reformation.
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- Опубликовано: 8 янв 2023
- The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) is a popular and fast-growing new movement of Christians who emphasize signs and wonders and teach that God is giving a new revelation through new apostles and prophets. But is this biblical Christianity? This stuff used to be fringe. Now it's probably in your church in some way. Why is this dangerous, and how can you spot it? I talk with Holly Pivec and Doug Geivett, the authors of Counterfeit Kingdom, about this concerning movement.
Timestamps:
03:16- What is the NAR?
08:29- Is the NAR similar to Word of Faith?
10:39- What is Doug and Holly's opinion of all these supernatural stories coming out of Bethel?
15:39- Ambiguous prophecies, wake up Olive, and prayer declarations.
20:55- We're critical of NAR, does that mean we don't believe God works miracles?
23:03- What is the implication if someone doesn't receive their miracle or healing?
26:31- Thoughts on Redeeming the New Age- Is there an authentic version for every counterfeit?
31:43- What is the 5-Fold Ministry and 7-Mountain Mandate?
37:57- How NAR deals with critics- are we just being meanies?
44:19- Why the Passion Translation belongs in your garbage.
47:52- Is this a false gospel? Are these false teachers?
57:41- About the popular music in the NAR.
👀WATCH👀:
●Counterfeit Vs. Authentic: Can Christians Redeem New Age Practices? • Counterfeit Vs. Authen...
●The Secret Sin Invading Christianity: • The Secret Sin Invadin...
📚RESOURCES📚:
●www.amazon.com/shop/melissado...
●Holly's Blog: www.hollypivec.com/blog
●Get Counterfeit Kingdom: www.hollypivec.com/books
🤗SUPPORT🤗:
If you are led, consider donating:
paypal.me/MelissaDougherty77
📲FOLLOW📲:
●Facebook: / newagetochristianity
●Instagram: @melissaldougherty
●Twitter: / meldougherty77
●My Website: www.melissadougherty.co/
💡SEMINARY💡:
In addition to new age confusion in the church, moral and theological confusion abound in our culture. Christ-followers are called to combat these false ideas that stand in the way of the Gospel. To effectively engage with this post-Christian culture, you will need a deeply integrated understanding of theology, philosophy, and apologetics-the bedrock of a degree from Southern Evangelical Seminary and Bible College (SES). SES is actually where I currently attend, and they offer accredited degrees and certificates that use this integrated approach to equip you to proclaim the Gospel, engage the culture, and defend the truth. Learn more at ses.edu/
I think this decreeing stuff is demanding God to answer prayers. We can't boss God around!
Yep, like He's our genie in a bottle. It's sick. I grew up in WOF and NAR and so glad Jesus saved me out of it. People in this are lost and deceived.
Amen
we know that if we ask according to his will that he hears us, and that we do not receive when we ask because we ask after our own lusts. we also don't know how to pray as we ought to. but the Spirit hears our prayer and intercede on our behalf with groans and uttering too deep for words.
this is why the spiritual, the mature, the established are the ones appointed by the apostles to be the ones to pray, to minister, to intercede. because those who are more wholly submitted to the will of God are better able to pray according to it.
It depends on what someone is declaring. If they are declaring that they will have a yacht and a vacation home, then obviously that's problematic BUT if they are declaring something that's clearly God's will (as evidenced in scripture), I think this is a powerful way to pray.
The bible says declare a thing and it shall be established. ( If it's in his will).
Melissa, I truly appreciate how you came out of the new age, found the truth, realized that even in the Church not all things are as they should be but instead of tossing it and saying, "to heck with the whole lot!" you do your homework, sort the good from the bad and get set on solid ground, able to share with others as you learn. This is the maturity the Church as a whole still needs.
Sounds like witchcraft to me.
@@jamesboyer8596 I don't see how anyone could conflate epistemology with witchcraft.
Not witchcraft but scientism!
Melissa, I have a similar story to yours. I am in one of these NAR churches right now and discerned many things that were not right. I want 😢to leave now that I know the full truth.
All prophets today are 99.9 percent wrong
We had my mother in law due for surgery years ago for a broken collar bone on a Monday 9am. It came to me as a step in faith to pray for the miracle until 9am and switch to praying for the doctor and procedure at 9. God chose to do the miracle. Praise God. I've had plenty of prayers since then that weren't answered. This doesn't discourage me. It's God's choice, not mine. Unless I know God's will in a particular situation I'm praying like Daniel's 3 friends. I don't know what God is going to do but...
I can continue to follow Jesus even when I don't get my way.
Wow Melissa is so popular that someone would create a fake account ^ trying to scam people? What an honor! 😆
I was healed of Colon Cancer, God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow
Prayers may or may not be answered immediately, or at all. God is God, and does what He chooses. He cannot be manipulated, rushed, bribed nor does he make deals or promises, besides the what He has said in Tge Holy Bible! Prayers is not an order list for our desires, or even our needs.
In The Lord’s Prayer, it says to speak to God, asking , “Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on earth , as it is in Heaven.” His Will may be what you ask, or it may be?that He has better answers that may be answered in ways Ge sees best, over time or later.
Ya we are suppose to pray
I was healed of acute myeloid leukemia thru chemotherapy and a stem cell transplant. I thank God we have doctors who were gifted to treat me.
I used to be part of this till January of this year when I was diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. It was my wake up call. The online community I was a part of was so disgusted when I told them what I have is incurable and their prayers for my healing weren't doing anything. They told me that I did not have faith and that I gave myself over to the demonic. It grieved me so much until the pastor at my church who was preaching against this stuff at the time said in a sermon that sometimes God will ask you to carrie something to further his kingdom. It's important that we stick to the Bible and correct biblical teachings. Also to attend a church where the pastor is not afraid to tell you what's what.
I have been dealing with severe chronic illness since birth including hEDS. I have run across those same attitude across the denominations and it was very disheartening. While I don’t understand God’s timing, He will bring healing at a time where it glorify Him or will equip us to serve Him in new way. I am finally experiencing healing, but definitely has been a long road to get here. Keep drawing close to Him and making the most of what you do have to work with.
Scripture says that in the last days, many false prophets would arise. So, when someone proclaims themselves a prophet, I always assume the worse.
Here’s the new revelation: go and preach the gospel in season and out of season! That would be something new. Especially if they left the building n went into the streets that would be extra novel!!
Matthew 28:18-19 CSB
“All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. [19] Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Holly lives in Fairbanks? We went up there in November of 2019 to see the aurora and it was cloudy every night. Now as she mentioned Bethel, I have said that Bethel is like the “Mother ship” of this movement.
Also, I spent 40 years in a charismatic congregation and many of the people in that church were, and are very much followers of Bill Johnson and Kris Valloton. We left there in 2012 and became part of a Mennonite church and some people there were also following Bethel.
Yes, that needs to be done as well. I watch the street preacher channels all the time and have done outdoor evangelism before and I'm very for that.
They do go out into the streets and marketplaces. The question is, do they preach the gospel? I’m sure they would say yes, but like with so many of these groups, they use the same terms but their meanings can be quite different.
@@woodb51 they go out to bring more people into their garbage. I’m talking about preaching the gospel: rebuking, reproving exhorting with doctrine. These people have doctrines of devils. Just like the Catholics.
When I was in a Faith /NAR church and would discuss errors in our theologies, they always said that I was in error, not them. Prayer time became a time of declaring, directing God and demanding things from God rather than entering into a time of worship, adoration, thanksgiving and petition. I found I couldn't agree with them in most prayers. I ended up leaving the church.
I don’t need a “new” revelation or modern day so called prophets. I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and His word, the holy Bible. That’s the only teaching I believe is valid.
As a new Christian, thank you for this video. I have not gone to a church involved with NAR, but I like knowing it exists and what to say if I run across it. Thank you 😊
Welcome to God's family 🙏🙂
Welcome to God’s family! 🎉
Even churches not affiliated with NAR use their music. Read the Bible daily and become so familiar with the truth that if false teaching shows up, you will be able to spot it a mile away😊
Welcome to the family. Stay on the path. Seek scriptures for yourself no matter how good your church is... this is a PERSONAL relationship with Christ. Shalom.
Welcome! Little advice: 1. Study the Bible hard, so that when statements are made by people like Wild Bill Johnson, Joseph Prince, Andrew Womack, Joel Olsteen (and the list of clowns go on and on) it will get your attention to discern.
2. How do I discern? When these people (or anyone) quote a verse in the Bible…put them on pause (if you’re watching a video), go to your Bible and read the whole chapter that verse is located in. This will give you CONTEXT as what the verse is really saying and teaching. Most times these false teachers take the verse out of context to fit around their beliefs. These two guest in this video are right on the mark. Listen to them.
I came out of catch the fire church in Toronto! They are heavily affiliated with Bethel church. Melissa thank you for everything you do to debunk these churches. It breaks my heart that people are falling for these teachings.
Left C the Fire in Raleigh! Such nonsense
This book is the most important book I've ever read. I have been deceived since I was born again.Thank you for writing it and sharing this video about it.
What scares me is good, solid bible believing, Churches fall for NAR . Even in songs.
I think it's great that so many people are talking about Bethel and the new age practices they have. I hope people who go to/like Bethel will watch this.
We need to be praying for God to prepare their hearts to receive this information. I just had conversation with some Bethel backers this week. I brought up a specific concern and I asked them if Bill Johnson has ever renounced this issue. None of them would address my concern.
Thank you for this interview regarding NAR. My wife and I had a four year "experience" with the ARC. They both sound similar. In our case I found little to no Bblical reference. It was more like gong to a Saturday nightclub on Sunday morning.
Also displeased with the liberalization of a traditional denomination we have dropped out of that as well.
We now get into the Bible with deep research study, meet with a small group of genuine believers in our home in a relaxed but Holy atmosphere during group worship. Then we share a meal. We have never before been closer to God and Jesus with a constant awareness of God's Holy Spirit.
My family was "Christian-Catholic" but also went to some "Christian Science" churches. It was neither Christian nor about science. Lol They had very wiccian beliefs and also believed in "the Secret". Also rarely referenced the Bible if ever. Or would cherry-pick. They seem to prey on opposing the Catholic side.
I was into terrible stuff that I think was really due to exposure and participation in this.
Thanks to God I was able to come out of it and am saved.
Sounds like the church in the Bible! I wish I could find one in my area. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
@@ari3lz3pp So glad God led you out. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
Wonderful that you left the false churches but still stay close to God and seek him.
But, miracles do happen. I have had my heart miraculously heal.. My injection friction numbers went from 36, which dangerously low, to 55, which is normal in less than 5 days. Then the arteries in my neck went from blockage of 70% plus, to no blockage in a couple months. There is no medication that can clean out the arteries, only surgery or God can clean them out. I do go to the doctor and take the medication they tell me to take, but I also pray 🙏 for healing by God. And He does.
They go over this in the interview 20:55
Absolutely Jesus heals today. These churches are abusing it. My husband was going to need surgery on his shoulder. I have laid hands on it, anointed him with oil and prayed every night for at least a week and he no longer needs surgery. Praise Jesus! 🙌🏻🙌🏻
God still does miracles. He does not use “apostles” these days. If He did we would see REAL healing on videos everywhere.
God sometimes uses medical personnel. And sometimes medical personnel make mistakes, diagnosing things. 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
@@tam4givin in my case, it was God that healed me. The doctors are confused.
I have had quite a few miracles in my life from God, from miraculous provisions, to healing and more and I am not aNAR follower. Read the word trust in God
Very good and important interview, Melissa!
Unfortunately, it is not only the LDS who are way off the biblical path with wrong teachings about restoration of old truths via modern “prophets and apostles.”
Just got the book. A few years ago, my husband and I moved across the street from a Supernatural School of ministry. We were looking for a church and I was always hearing them practice their worship music, which always sounded great My husband and I attended a service, they had a visiting pastor speaking that night. He didn't speak anything about apostles or prophets, but spoke about revival and was very insistent that the revival would start from a specific spot on the floor. We both felt the preacher was a little off and intended to go back to listen to the actual pastor, but never did.
Thank you for this Video.
This NAR stuff is so real and massively deceptive. My old church was completely taken over by this false doctrine through there teachings and God by his mercy opened are eyes and removed my family and me. Stay vigilant and line everything up with the Bible be a Berean. God bless
Thank you ! Well educated and spoken ! I was apart of Bethel for 6 month PTL God pulled me out! Trusting in God not in man✝️
TRUSTING IN GOD NOT IN MAN. VERY VERY KEY
The NAR is rampant in South Africa. Please be vigilant.
yes, and a former South African pastor is in Virginia.
How do you even identify them without going to a service? It's so frustrating to me that websites are super vague.
If a church is more about the Pastor and who is preaching rather than what they are teaching its a clear sign and red flag.
@@karienvanniekerk3523 That's a great tip! Thank you.
Love these interviews. I watched from beginning to end and now have a clear understanding of the NAR movement. I have been in several churches influenced by these doctrines and even got married because of it (my wife was revealed to my then pastors, and I accepted). God has since set my wife and I free, and healed our marriage 🙏🏿
I’m a former new ager, currently non-denominational/pentecostal. I feel the lord leading me to orthodoxy. I was shown a dream where God played a slideshow of all the churches. He said, “I love you all” then stopped on the Orthodox Church and said, “but this is closest to heaven” it was so clear.
My Aunt accused me of not believing in miracle when we were discussing this topic. This video and channel is a godsend, and reaffirms my beliefs.
Hi Melissa,
I have read the book, Counterfeit Kingdoms, and found it very informative. As I look at the current status of my church, our threat from NAR would be through the music or more to the point, the lyrics. I have never been a fan of sloppy lyric or stuff that repeats endlessly. I was wondering if you would be willing to do a video on NAR terminology. What are specific terms, words, and phrases that have different meanings in the evangelical camp and in NAR.
Thank you for a great interview.
This was a really enjoyable interview, thank all of you for doing this and for sharing your research. It is very relevant and timely, the NAR is so entrenched here in South Africa. Many people here embrace the teachings without ever asking where the ideas come from. They don't know about the NAR even when they are solidly following the teachings. Our sinful hearts just want the gifts, not the Giver. So much error would be avoided by knowing the Bible, rightly handled... May the Lord bless you and keep all three of you for speaking up with love and wisdom.
I'm also from South-Africa. In our town I would say 70 percent of churches are NAR/ WOF influenced. Stay strong
So many of us are searching for guidance! It is there, in the Bible. Which is God's Word!
I grew up in the NAR and pastored around 1k under the personal discipleship of one of the Hispanic leaders who had 20K people of this movement. I quickly left because of the lack of Biblical literacy, cultish practices, and political/money ambitions. We left it all behind and un-learned and relearning everything again
I'm grateful for these conversations because it helps me learn and know how to pray better. I can't tell you how many mistakes i have made in my prayer time based off of someone else's example, whether pastor, leader, teacher, Christ-following friend... Bottom line, we are all fallible and should want to continually learn from Scripture. Because I'm fallible, i find it helpful to present my petitions yet still ask the Lord to let His will be done regardless of what or how i pray.
Wow! Thank you. I am an MDiv student, and this is the first time I have heard about NAR..scary stuff, will surely get the book and learn more!
Brillant and easy-to-understand interview!
I was at a church they prayed for a middle ear infection which I actually had and was released instantly. I went forward to give testimony they were like stunned not knowing if I was being genuine or not.
Not really wanting to give me the mike and after not even praising the Lord. That was the day my eyes were opened about seeing up of miracles.
This was a very insightful video to watch and listen to.
Thank you so much for covering this, Melissa, Doug and Holly!
God bless
It is written
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 22:18-19
I appreciate the compassion I see in y'all's faces for people who are devastated for incorrect teachings of God. Thank you for loving strangers who need help knowing God.
You are right to point out the difference between NAR and the WOF approaches healing, and the way we are to approach it biblically. NAR has his kind of name it and claim it mentality, whereas true Christianity teaches that healing is possible yes but we are to humbly approach God with our petitions.
Thank you so much, Melissa, for this informative interview. I just got "Counterfeit Kingdom" and will read the music chapter first to share with my husband who is the worship leader at our small church. He is in agreement with not using Bethel music (or other like publishers) but the NAR buzzwords are not confined to those labels. The more I learn about NAR, the more intensely I find myself scrutinizing every song's lyrics. The NAR teachings are insidious.
The problem is finding churches that don't play Bethel/Hilsobg music. Some songs at church I attend which is small charismatic not big, don't even have the name Of Jesus or God in them. I don't sing those songs!
@@KM-zn3lx That is the truth! The only ones I have seen that do not sing those songs are extremely legalistic. 😢
Thank you for bringing these 2 knowledgeable people to talk about NAR. I didn’t get why Bethel had some teachings that were questionable but hearing & seeing you all explain it & how it ties to New Age really helped me understand it. God bless you 3 & your ministries my broth and sisters
I just finished that book. Its very good and opened my eyes to how some of this has been snuck into my church. It's insidious!
There has been a great transfer of wealth in these last days - right out of the sheep’s pockets into the hands of greedy teachers who live in great luxury.
Melissa, I’m a Pentecostal, believe in the gifts of the spirit: prophecy, tongues etc. However, I often watch your videos because I enjoy your sense of balance and your relation to scripture! Thank you
Tongues today are gibberish and prophets today are 99.9 percent wrong
@anthonywitter5856
me, too 🕊️ 🔥
I have been around these type of churches and they so emotional and there is a lot of power moving. Just too much mixture of demonic spirits at work, almost can put u in a trance. First time I was there, my heart was just burning, and cried and cried, needless to say I was in this atmosphere for years. Praise the Lord that he brought me out years ago. Not enough Word preached in those places, my experience
Thanks for sharing 🙏🏾
Prayers out for the brothers and sisters in Christ 🕊️ wherever they are in their journey
His grace and mercy be upon you all and your loved ones 🕊️🥛🍯
Melissa, you and your guests are amazing! I was around some NAR people for a few years back in the 2000’s. I was never sold on them but finally had enough and the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to who they are. Thank you for your work!
I'll tell you what grinds my gears, I listened to Kris Vallotons fathers day message and after he spewed out two outlandish stories that I sat through the agony of hearing him tell, while yelling not very nice things at my phone, he ends up giving a great message. That's why I think so many people become so stuck in that church. Its Deception at its best!!
This guy is a very abusive man. He should be avoided at all costs.
Thanks for continuing to shine a light on this subject. I just went from an overly legalistic church to a more charismatic church and it so hard for us to navigate because on one hand it all seems legit, the congregation seems very sincere in striving to honer the Father. On the other hand, it all could lead to new age ideals, haven't seen any yet, and hoping it stays that way. Listening to your channel has been so helpful in making me aware of what to look out for. Thank you!
Just to help you focus on seeing things can be well in this danger is you just get deep into scripture of the Word or bible and ask God to give you a good hunger to lnow scripture solidly even without going to teachers and this by at home outside at places away from what that church might do ..go to scripture and jump as a dive into it swim deep into it's waters so to speak ..best thing doing is study and hunger for to get to grasp scripture a lot in these times of the Greek wording called apostasy , what's used basically in scripture like apostasia .. study to study as best you do and grow to hunger it . Even if another tells you not to they are wrong or lying .
Not just a warning for Christians but also anyone who is seeking to know more about Christianity!
One of my favourite parts is near the end -God’s Word is enough !
One thing I would note is many proclaim to speak for God constantly. It’s extremely common to hear folks say, “the Lord revealed to me” or “God gave me this word” and then preach from Nehemiah or something by reading 3-4 verses pulled from the book and apply it to us.
Its a common practice of these christians saying for example just put your name before reading Jeremiah 29.11..This technique puts lots of pressure on young christians especially who equate themselves as prophets!!
The Bible was written for us but not to us ...
@@toolegittoquit_001I get what you mean but I would say that some of it is written to us. Depends on the context.
Thank you Melissa for having these kinds of conversations on your show! I learn so much each time I watch a new! Keep up the great work! Can't wait for the next one!
I would love for you to touch on homeschooling more like you did a bit here. ❤️ As a homeschool mom we are trying to work through apologetics, critical thinking, and biblical authority.
Totally because the NAR people are deep into homeschooling too.
@@rachelm9350 I am having such a hard time finding trustworthy resources
Try Memoria Press for classical Christian homeschool materials. They are very well done.
They have good videos with discussions about education philosophy, also.
God bless you 🙌
Thank you so much Melissa! He got me out of the new age and the occult and the presence of these beliefs in christianity is very alarming. Strong-
arming God is Not faith and trust in Him. It's taken a few years for me to get out of nar and there are still aspects of it in me.
He is so gracious with me.
Still aspects of it in you? What do you mean?
Great discussion. I had a season of being in NAR and groups influenced by their teaching. What really woke me from their teaching was research lung the early church and specifically the Apostolic Fathers (the disciples of the Disciples) such as St Ignatius and St Irenaeus, and seeing how they spoke of gospel, the Church’s identity, and the understanding of authority of bishops, apostles. It becomes quickly evident that NAR re-defines terms and the vision of Christs kingdom on earth.
💯 percent Jenny Weaver Worships. Thank you for all the info and scripture pointing to truth
When we first moved to Michigan we tried our new friends church. The church is heavily NAR movement, our friends are totally unaware of the false teachings. It’s sad because they are older and very set in their beliefs, the church had Todd White and Joyce Meyer come. Anyway, last year I got covid, and the friends called to pray for me, the declaration prayer came off as very demanding. And I believe these churches do teach that we are to command God to do what ever we command ‘based on promises in the Bible’. It’s just crazy. We have since found a better church but I feel for our friends who are blinded by the lies at theirs. Sorry this is poorly worded, I’m cooking dinner and trying to get ready to leave the house 🤪
In James chapter 5 he mentions Elijah's prayer of faith in reference to rain... Go back and read 1 Kings 17 on how Elijah "prayed". He didn't pray in the sense we think of, he commanded.
@@Angie-fn8op I'm not sure I get your meaning... He commanded? Where? What I read is that Elijah cast himself down... Very likely before God... That posture is one of supplication. And the language of James was he prayed earnestly. How does the command enter into this? I just don't see it... Commanding stuff is never what we are asked to do by Scripture. We ask in Christ's name, seek, knock on heaven's door importunately. But we must never forget that we aren't Lord and Master, God is. And so when we approach the God of the universe, who has given us the right to call him father, we come boldly... But we also come with reverence. This is the example our Lord Jesus showed, the example the disciples showed, even the old testament prophets. I think we ought to follow that.
@@Angie-fn8opI don’t see any commanding in 1 Kings 17. Elijah probably passes on to King Ahab a message he has received from God:
‘As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.’
In chapter 18 he also doesn’t command rain. He tells Ahab that he hears rain and tells his servant to go and look towards the sea for a cloud, which then appears. In other words, God has told him that it will now rain and he is passing the message on.
James 5.17-18 says,
‘Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.’
None of this necessarily means that Elijah decided it wouldn’t rain and then that it would rain again. It could just as well mean that Elijah prayed it would stop raining, God told him that he would do this, then Elijah prayed that it would rain again and God told him that this prayer too was answered.
God could have led him to pray those prayers.
@@Jill-jb1jg "probably" is a problem, especially since James makes reference to this in particular.
@@lkhai6243 you can say to this mountain be thou moved and cast into the sea...
James reference is specific to 1 Kings 17:1. We aren't the Lord's master but He is ours. We are to follow his likeness in every way. The Father showed Jesus what to say and do and he showed his disciples to do as He did. We are to be strong and courageous, bold and victorious. Jesus has all authority in heaven and earth, we are His vessels. He works expects us to allow ourselves to allow Him to continue His work through man. The Word of God is clear on these matters. The fear of the Lord does not mean to go out with our trails tucked, it means to obey and follow after Him, believing His Word and acting on it.
The best, most thorough and scripture - based discussion of the new apostolic reformation I have ever heard. Thank you for this insight. Praise the Lord and thank Him for his Scripture.
Nobody can tear a Christian apart, like another Christian.
Our former church I believe is sinking deeper into this type of movement. I thank God for leading us out of that church and into a much better bible believing church.
I tried to point the pastor's wife and another lady at our old church in the direction of the truth of the passion "translation" and neither of them took what I said seriously.
.
I definitely want to read Counterfeit Kingdom soon.
i have a disabled daughter. i was excited that her bus driver is a Christian and is very kind. but the other day, he said he prayed and my daughter would be completely healed soon. really rubbed me the wrong way but couldn’t really articulate why. thank you for discussion.
Thank you for the interview. Counterfeit Kingdom is an important book, that a lot of people should read. There is one thing I cannot remember being discussed anywhere at any time (I may have missed it) and that is that these NAR apostles, prophets etc. often not only claim the importance of the fivefold ministry, but they often claim they themselves have the complete fivefold ministry. I used to be in a pentecostal church where one of the elders claimed this for himself and I know Graham Cooke claims it as well.
Ha, that's a nice way to eliminate the idea of a team of pastors who all have one of the five gifts and center things back on one all-important pastor who now gives you "all-in -one" gifts, saves you church money and promotes a celebrity pastor with all the power to abuse he could possibly want.
I got out of the NAR. I left the Assembly of God Church.
I love the A/G church. 🕊️ I was never ever exposed to these unbiblical NAR teachings there.
Assembly of God is not NAR.They are pentecostal.
@@dorothyhazlip3265 The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) is a theological belief and movement that combines elements of Pentecostalism, evangelicalism, and the Seven Mountains Mandates to advocate for spiritual warfare to bring about Christian dominion over all aspects of Society, and end or weaken the separation of Church and State.
And yes, Assembly of God (AOG) is part of this movement.
@@dorothyhazlip3265 You don’t know the definition of NAR. They are Pentecostal.
@@ST52655 Which AOG Church do you go to? Do they teach the Seven Mountains Mandate?
You know they are a Pentecostal Church, right?
Do they teach Revelation?
Do they speak in tongues?
Do they follow Bill Johnson, Rick Warren, Joyce Meyer, Kennith Copeland, Joel Osteen?
Thank you so much for this interview Melissa. I came out of wof a while back,and your channel has been such a blessing to me. Looking forward to more awesome content in 2023 and beyond❤
Thank you Melissa and to your guest speakers in bringing topics like this one to us. Look forward to more like.
One of the best and most informative interviews on this subject! Thank you so much Melissa!
Excellent, compelling interview. The authors are well spoken, giving us tremendous insight and information about the dangerous NAR movement. You did a great job interviewing them, thanks to all.
Thank all of you for a great interview. Very informative and timely. "What does scripture say?" used to be the best way to check for false teachings. So, of course, they are creating their own scripture version. More and more, I see entire denominations, looking at United Methodist Church, focusing on life coaching how to live a better life through affirming and loving everyone instead of focusing on praising God for what He has done in our lives. It becomes a focus on self improvement instead of salvation from our sins.
I did not realize at the time our Pastor at the time was using this method strictly. I am still shocked
This is a very good and informative video. I will only add to the last topic....the music. I am 67 and have always been a musical person and have liked many genras of music thru the years. I will say that after listening to Bethel Music and Hillsong Music especially with their live performance videos, they are attractive to the flesh no doubt. Their music is well crafted even without the lyrics. Then add yourself into the crowd and it is increased as any past rock concert goer knows. Then add the lyrics and you have your greatest tool to draw people in by way of a kind of trance. Their music is very trancey. Let's be honest on this, it is spiritual, and this is why it is so effective and more so if you are in the crowd. I can say that some of the Bethel and Hillsong lyrics are aiming the listener to the dark side. Its mystical or gnostic and we all have a natural attraction to it in my opinion. Like much of the worldly music, if you just read the lyrics out loud, you would reject it. But in the right song, you accept it into your mind. We are all made this way IMHO so we must be careful.
We used to be a part of a large church in the 80's and God was moving there in a mighty way . Something happened and pastors went to another church out of state and the glory left . We moved to a small church wher God was moving and people were getting saved healed and Spirit Filled until the enemy got in there and attacked the pastor who resigned . The assistant took over and stopped the outreach in favor of inreach it went with WOFso I left . Tried to go back to the earlier big church but they were experimenting with all kinds of things like cell groups and prophets ect . They left the AG and ditched the church leadership elders and went with the NAR heavy . Seems like the enemy always finds a way to get in with a counterfeit holy spirit and deceive believers ?
A great interview, thank you guys. I was a part of this movement and by God's grace he has opened my eyes to the truth. I brought this book at the end of last year and am really enjoying it. Regarding Lance's book Invading Babylon, doesn't it say in the book of revelation to come out of Babylon? Keep speaking Gods Truth and those who Love truth will listen and those who don't won't.
I’m loving the interviews. You’ve definitely given me a few books to read.
I have a friend heavily involved in Bethel and now is frequently quoted bible verses online but she is exclusively using the Passion Translation. From the first time I saw one of these, before I knew anything about the Passion version, I felt like it was off and planned to dig around. I found the Melissa video with Mike Wenger and it clarified it all for me. I can't believe so many people don't even question stuff the NAR movement teaches.
Correct. TPT. The toilet paper translation. Any leader that would recommend this translation is dangerous, deceived or both.
Great podcast . Have them again please.
Thank you for bringing this to attention, so people can maybe understand better where some discernment is coming from. I also appreciate it, because I have had friends caught up in the attraction, some hurt by actual NAR churches, others dragging practices into Bible studies and children's ministries. I have adult children who have wandered some, and I hope I am more able to help them, if God brings them to me with questions as they return to Him. Definitely good information to have when sharing the gospel with various people.
Love your stuff, Melissa! Keep fighting the good fight! 💪🙏
You have the pulse of the major issues for Christians, Melissa. Thank you.
This is so enlightening!
What happened to Olive's parents. This was horrifying to witness. The failure of leadership by Bethel elders during the whole tragedy was amazing.
They are still walking with Jesus. They just had another baby. Even if the theology is off, they are held
We thank God for His blessing. Genuinely happy for them.
Thank you for the good and hard work on sharing this important truth. Be blessed!
Well done, fellow soldiers.
Great job equipping your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ with this video.
Job well done!
Great conversation, exchange and exposition 👊🙌🏻✝️🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 Thank you 💞💙💞
I got my M.A. in Apologetics from BIOLA also. Took a class with Doug and have the book. So much deception gets by because people do not study their Bible. I was in the class with David Wood and Nabeel. We had the 2 mormons on platform. Was told that Walter Martin's methods were recognizable by the Dean. LOL.
Are you referring to David and Nabeel as the 2 mormons? I do not understand your post.
Would love clarity as well. I’m more confused by the Walter Martin comment though.
David Wood and (the late) Nabeel Qureshi are awesome Christians, Not the Mormons referenced in the comment. I highly recommend looking up David and Nabeel's testimonies, which can be found on RUclips. And Nabeel wrote a book called "Seeking Alah Finding Jesus" that is a beautiful fuller look at Nabeel's testimony.
I’m also confused by the Walter Martin remark. Could you rephrase?
Thanks for bringing this forward, Melissa. I heard of this book and it’s authors on Michael Heiser’s Naked Bible podcast. It was a great interview and even more information here. This movement is so damaging to the people God loves, and to His reputation. I pray that the Lord will lift the veil of this deception and that people will stop lusting after spiritual power, repent, and return to Biblical Christianity, humility and grace.
Prayer Declaration: praying without petition. Excellent clarification.
I LOVE this video! These teachings have crept into our church via some of the elders, and congregants. Now my husband and I are being accused of being division for questioning them.
Don't let them intimidate you. This is a common practice of nar. I've run into this at several churches. Eventually, I had to leave. First I thought maybe the leaders were ignorant to these teachings and was hoping to change their minds. Then I realized they knew exactly what they were doing.
@@MichaelCTruth I've been in this church for almost 50 years, and it's only recently started to change over the past few years, very gradually. After our pastor died.
@@a9966 It's usually about power and money.
Great interview! Thank you guys!
Thank you for this wonderful interview-I have read the book and my son is reading it also-excellent!!!
Loved Counterfeit Kingdom! Downloaded the Audible version which helped to both read and listed at the same time! Watched several interviews with these two authors.
This was very informative! Thank you Melissa. Definitely getting the book
Thank you so much Melissa ! Great claims and discernment ! I will get the book and share it !
I just wanted to note, that I am greatful to have come across your channel. Especially across the series about bethel/NAR. Since I am a teenager I have come in touch with this movement and read into it's teachings, that were strangly, sublely at odds with my simultanious study of Apologetics (Living Waters Evidence Bible/ I felt like having a strongly hyper spiritual side of my christianity and an apologetic side).When I first saw the first 10 Videos, not just about bethel, but about new age and specific book reviews, I was thrown into a pit of depression and hopelessness, because I didn't see a way out of these new age teachings for many of my fellow church members and friends I will make (and have made) within the confines of the body of christ (and I was confused and doubtful if it was true that so much of the mainstream has been so poisoned by new age and progressive thought). But the more I have followed your channel as well as simular content (like Remnant Radio) I have concluded that it is truly possible to build a balanced charismatic theology and practice, for me and my friends, since there are so many resources available to get educated. Once I was unconciously confused, then I became conciously cofused and now I am confident to build my theology about Christ and his church, as well as my practice, on firm ground. I sincerely thank you for this channel.
Melissa thank you for sharing. I'm very aware of this group. Listening to this really convicted my heart. I had to repent to the Lord. I need to know Hum as His word says, not by experience or feelings. Thank you.
Not standing up for Bethel here, but when Peter was involved with the lame man being healed he said - ‘In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk’ Acts 3:6. There was no petition. You could go on and talk about not believing the gifts are for today if that’s what you think, but you can’t really say it’s not in the Bible.
The apostles were being led by the Spirit on who to heal and who would not be healed. That's the difference.
@@inchristalone25 I agree with that. A lot of people trying to be used in healing aren’t being led and listening to God.
Wow. Very true
@@inchristalone25 and we can’t be led by the spirit? God is no respecter of persons.
@@changingcolors91 are you saying from the perspective of a Bethel member? That you aren't being led by the Spirit? No I can't make a judgment on each individual person. There are probably some in that church being led by the Spirit. But if you are demanding deceased children to walk out of their grave... you better have a good explanation about why you would do that. And they don't.
Great interview. I’ve been going to a charismatic church where this stuff has creeped in since the senior pastor started hiring all his kids to be ‘pastors’ but they’re not well versed in Scripture. I joined Bible Study Fellowship 4 years ago and your videos, Holly and Doug’s books and good hermeneutics put this nonsense in it’s proper perspective.
Just finished the book today. It is very informative! Thank you for this interview.
Went to one of there church services , they talked about supernatural healings that have taken place the whole service . No preaching at all .
Tracey Burroughs from South Africa 🇿🇦 watching your video.Thank you for your video
The thing that is popping in my head is Lying signs and wonders
Thank you for saying that the NAR should not be confused with historical Pentecostalism. I’m an ordained AG minister and I do not approve of the NAR it is unscriptural. Unfortunately one of the biggest AG churches James River is endorsing all this stuff and our district and national leadership is doing nothing.
That Toronto blessing really turned many solid churches upside down and the Kundilini spirit got into all kinds of believers who got bewitched by it . I came out of the occult and can see the counterfeit holy spirit seduicing believers today . We need to intercede for them and restore them because we love them and they are family . Pray for God to empower and guide us in this delicate mission ?
What a great and informative interview. Thank you
Wonderful discussion. Thanks so much for your excellent clarity in communicating these subtle distinctions that are necessary to understand so we can avoid being deceived by what's being presented. Excellent program.
Some things I’d be interested in hearing more about on a post is salaries of Bethel leadership, who benefits financially from TPT sales and why there are so many leadership pairs and nepotism at Bethel.
Thanks for sharing. I agree. For the past several months I have been looking up Hebrew, Greek and Aramic words used in original scripture to help me understand what the Bible is truly saying. It really us a wake-up call. Jesus never promised rewards for following him. He actually warned it isn't all going to be sunshine and roses. The reward comes after our life is finished. Not during. Jesus told us to pick up our Cross and follow him. Not an easy road. PS, the prosperity gospel is a flat out lie. The laws and covenants of the Old Testament were fulfilled at the cross. Jesus told us to help the poor and suffering. Not sow into a Pastors already rich life posing as the Kingdom. God bless you!
This was amazing I wish I had more time to write… I am an ex new ager and what Melissa had mentioned about “restoring” I would love a deeper dive in that. I am hearing some of this from some church members…So good!!