This episode really suffered from erratic editing and super quick pacing with lots of “and then this happens” type storytelling. I have little hope for the Centennial be decent and that really sucks. I’d love to have a Chibnall episode I’m entirely positive about.
Yeah this one was bad. I agree with you, it could have been literally anything. Hell Russell took advantage of the last few stories he wrote some weirder stuff like Midnight or Turn Left. The biggest annoyance for me was the really terrible moment where the doctor shouted at the pirate guy for killing a sea devil, and then 5 minutes later just show John Bishop killing 6 at once. like someone wrote something and forgot what happened a few pages before, and nobody said anything during the whole of the production?
Much like what happened with Thasmin, Chris saw that social media had centered on this thing called "Evil Dan". So, clearly, he's giving the fans what they want.
If they're looking to bring back old villains, why the hell hasn't the Meddling Monk made an appearance yet? He'd be great in the hands of a halfway competant writer. (I.e. not Chibnal) The Master is my favourite Doctor Who villain but the show leans on him far too much, I think the reason they killed off all the other Time Lords twice over is because for some reason showrunners can't figure out what to do with any Time Lord who isn't either the Doctor or the Master.
Hell, Big Finish have already cast Rufus Hound in the Missy series as the Monk (and he was a very fun portrayal, a welcome change from the usual angst ridden Timelords Stories of the modern era), so I'm pretty sure they'd be able to do it if they actually wanted to. But you're right, none of the series showrunners have had much love for Timelords other than The Doctor or The Master.
Because Chibs is a hack writer and because he hasn't got a title for the final story he's just called it the ratings apocalypse goes very well with the last episode legacy of a hack writer
To be honest, one of my earliest and most enduring images from Who was the image of the Sea Devils, emerging from the sea. It was during the 30th, and I was only 7. So yeah, it was going to have an impressionable effect on me. I discovered the Silurians later on, and while I do like them quite a bit, I've never found their look quite as iconic or bizarre as the Sea Devils.
You missed the line where the Doctor says: “He’s in league with the sea devils!” When the treasure captain kneels in front of the sea devil. Just one of many instances of: duh I can see that on screen! In this episode
But now they have the Sea Devil costumes for the next writer to use. Since Chris is on his way out, I'd guess that was the impetus for having them be the villain.
The long awaited return of the classic staple Prediction Corner. Hopefully this revival will successfully pander to long time Stubagful fans instead of make them annoyed it’s not how they remember it.
It's episodes like this that make me wish Chibnall had pulled a Greatest Show in the Galaxy and leaned into the meta status of DW as character commentary. Make this story a quieter one where the Doctor keeps looking for dangers that aren't there because the subtext gradually becoming text over the course of the story would be that experiencing big moments and continual adventures with her companions with no time to breathe or reflect allows her to avoid the loss of identity she's feeling. Take the observation/criticism that she's minimally characterized and have it be a plot point, with the talks vis-à-vis Yaz gradually illustrating her to be someone unsure of who she is in light of the revelations of the Timeless Child & the destruction of Gallifrey. That could even tie into her doubts about a romantic relationship with Yaz; because she's not sure if it would be for the right reasons or if because it would be one of the few things she could actually define herself with. If there has to be a monster/alien villain, have it one that's in some ways stand in for current Who, a big, bombastic creature promising to reveal major secrets about the Doctor, only to be quickly defeated in each encounter in shallow fashion by the likes of Yaz because she (in essence) is not going to allow the show's contemporary bad habits interrupt the actual real conversations she's finally getting to have with the Doctor. I mean, it's an era on its last legs with no expectation of strong ratings until the finale anyway, so as Stuart said, go nuts with it.
Honestly your episode pitch about the romantic date between the Doctor and Yaz with limited action that was mostly about introspection and really examining their relationship would've been a million times more memorable
6:35 In fairness, the ‘please quote me’ lines we get now are generally much less blatant and obnoxious than they were in the Moffat years, I find. Possibly because they no longer sound like every sentence has been carefully crafted and pre-meditated to perfection by Steven in the shower the day before writing the script. None of the lines in this Thasmin scene really test my suspension of disbelief for sentences that real people could come up with on the spot. Comparing it to Moffatt’s heart-to-hearts, for example the ‘I’m not running away from things, I’m running to them’ bit from Angels Take Manhattan, I can’t help but consider what we have now significantly less irritating.
I actually agree with this. I really hate a lot of Moffat's dialogue, and that's not even limited to Doctor Who. I had exactly the same problem with Sherlock and Jekyll as well. They often just talk in trailer or motivational poster speak, or coming up with "witty" exchanges pre-designed to end up in some RUclips compilation. Chibnall's dialogue issue to me is just that it feels more "stage", where they discuss happenings or feelings like characters in a play or drama and it doesn't feel woven into the action very well (which is probably why people find pacing issues). Russel's era had A LOT of blatant exposition, but there was often people running around and doing stuff as it was being delivered, so people didn't notice the same.
@@Deathlygunn Shit, you’re right. In that case, a better example would be the Zygon Inversion speech. Capaldi delivers it well, but man was it playing into the ‘motivational social media post’ crowd. Or for another one, how about the ‘fear is a superpower’ speech from Listen. The sort of writing that calls your attention to the writer behind it instead of the character saying it, which really isn’t what you want for lines that are supposed to be coming from the heart.
I agree, but I don't care about immersion or suspension of disbelief. I usually prefer baroque overly-mannered try-hard writing to the pedestrian, lazy, or mediocre. As for Chibnall, his character-focused writing doesn't bother me as much as his half-baked plot mechanics or attention to detail (such as they are).
It sucks that, not only will Chibnall probably shit all over one of most bittersweet and soul crushing companion exits with Saward's Resurrection of the Daleks, but his episode will also supersede every other continuity and have the final say on how and why exactly Ace left the Doctor. So yeah, that'll be fun...
They took a historical figure I REALLY wanted to see in a doctor who story and ignored everything that makes her interesting. They made her a 'tough aunt' figure. She could easily have been the focus.
@@dickottel Well obviously not something that daft, leave that for the VNAs. I was thinking more that the TARDIS crew arrives during her fleet's raiding of the pearl river just around the time she is getting desperate and facing villager militias. Not something this era would bother with, I know, but this episode was the equivalent of Blackbeard turning up on his lonesome and having to get an alien maguffin or the crew of the Queen Anne's Revenge will be executed
Stu you have to stop suggesting infinitely superior ideas for Who episodes. Now all I can think about is how good that Doctor/Yaz multidimensional restaurant episode could be.
I'm not a big shipping person, but the fact that that basic premise would provide *actual progression* for their relationship and characters makes it automatically better than what we got
On of the best things about the trailers for the Blu-Ray box sets are the appearance of the old companions and what they are up to now (in mini adventures) I think Chibbs picked up on that and is trying to drum up interest in the last special using that concept.
Actually I'd watch that date. To be honest..... 1. Its the only way to develop Thasmin in.the time left. 2. Its exactly the change of pace we need before a finale. 3. Actually I'm a bit peckish myself so any information on dining options would be helpful.
0:59 that's true there are so many fans who will argue that something like revenge of the cybermen isn't crap just cause it was made in the 70s but say anything made by jnt is auto crap
Many of the crappy episodes of classic Who are at least amusingly bad. Some can be slow enough that I just fall asleep. I'd totally invite everybody here to my crib to get ripped and watch Time Flight.
@@nifralo2752 - Not surprising that they would, it's terrible! But it's an entertaining kind of terrible. IMO the JNT era was shaped more by the script editors anyway.
@@voltijuice8576 that's true as JNT was the only producer/show runner who wasn't a writer and lest be honest by the tome of McCoy he was just rubber stamping. Cartnal was the de Facto producer. And in jet's defence Saward also didn't get Dr Who either. Jnt saw it as fluff and seaward saw it as pound shop star wars and star ship troopers. When it was never either
Yeah, I really wish they would have gone a bit more off-the-wall with Jodie's last few stories. People seem to dislike this run anyway, so what have you got to lose? TBH I really liked Flux and for me a lot of that was in just how weird some of it was.
Stu, please, please, please write the date episode! And please include your own blood-curdling versions of re-postable Facebook quotes!!! We need something good to remember this era by
As someone who hasnt kept up with the show since Series 12, its incredible that your random intergalactic restaurant episode pitch was instantly more intriguing to me than any of the promotion for legend of the sea devils. The show is doing nothing fresh to reel in viewers.
8:24 "Oh wow, Ace is coming back and so is Tegan and presumably more companions...with Chris' name on the writing credits. (Moment of silence) I'm frightened." Me too mate, me too.
Seeing Ace coming back for the next episode made my heart drop. Because I really liked the idea that the 7th Doctor did end up getting Ace a spot into the Time Lord academy and she eventually did become a Time Lord in her own right. And pettily, I also just like the idea that Ace just grabs Clara and Ashildr after their final exit and takes them to Galifrey to end their travels before they can affect the timeline any further. But those little headcanons are set to die by the time I view the next episode.
That theory had already been put to bed in the Sarah Jane adventures, where it was established she settled down on earth & set up a charity organisation. I like to think that the Doctor intended to make her a time lord but she refused & went back home to make difference to her planet, which I kind of hope is how it is in the special.
@@pcb1175 I haven't forgotten about "A Charitable Earth". Definitely weakens my argument/headcanon desire a bit. But I could always imagine that it's an organization Time Lord Ace set up at some point (either secretly or openly, depends on how non-interference the Time Lords are currently) or that it's just a coincidence it's initials spell out Ace's name. Or discredit it by simply not caring about a small throw away line that was meant only to be a fun call back to another old character. Ace's actually character returning is much more impactful on my self-indulgent, and admittedly more than a little petty, idea.
@@thelemonadestandman i have the idea that "A Charitable Earth" is, A for more then just humans and, B a way to ground Ace, some one that's needs a home and is damaged by her lose of roots in much of the expanded media.
For as pitifully inept as they were, would love to see a return of the Krotons. I haven't seen too many of the Troughton shows, but that one has something special/goofy about it.
The trick to watching this episode was to flip channels & watch the antiques roadshow instead, you just failed to understand how Chibnal wanted this episode to be consumed & thus had an inferior viewing experience of this masterpiece.
There was actually a planned *pre*quel to Timelash back during the PDA era but it got canned. A sequel to Timelash where say the Doctor watches as a cult of the Borad's followers try to bring back his fanatical rule on a Karfel rebuilding from the Borad's rule would be interesting. Although it would probably work better as a standalone spinoff.
Chibnall said at some point he expects people to be watching the episode while on the phone at the same time so I assume characters saying what is happening on screen is for those people(?)
I’ve heard that somewhere before & it’s baffling that he’s chosen writing decisions that detract how effective the storytelling is so he can appeal to people who aren’t interested in what they’re watching
The thing that annoyed me most is something no one seems to care about. That one guy who saw his dad murdered in front of him, then spends the rest of the episode grinning like an idiot and laughing and joking. Even though maybe 15 minutes has passed at most when he starts. I guess Batman should just get over it and become Adam West. 15 minutes is all it takes.
Yeah, I’m also not a fan Seriously, you could replace the Sea Devils with another villain and it would be exactly the same. I wish they used the Sea Devils in a way to introduce new fans to the villains properly and to entice them to check out the Pertwee serial Writing was bad, lighting was bad, editing was bad, CGI was TERRIBLE etc etc I totally agree when you said that an off the wall, experimental episode would have been cooler
Pirate Queen. Sea Devil in period attire. Episode called "Legends of the Sea Devils." All the makings of a Sea Devil pirate story. Instead, Sea Devils are generic evil villains looking to (re)take over the planet. Complete with magical powers that would have lent themselves to the pirate angle. Costumes are nice though.
The directing on this one was also quite poor. Whoever they got for the episode really didn’t know how to do action sequences. There were so many unnecessary closeups, awkward cutaways, and weird staging that made it hard to follow what was happening mid-fight. Like the Doctor sliding down the side of the ship the Sea Devil walking downstairs and somehow meeting at the bottom at the exact same time was dizzying.
The director for this episode, Haolu Wang had only previously done short films, with this being her first TV credit. I feel sorry for her personally, directing is already a challenging role & to have it be for a high end TV show with lots of VFX & stunts plus having to follow covid regulations on set, it puts more pressure on the job & sadly the end product came out looking really poor.
@@pcb1175 Really? I wonder why they would bring her on if she hadn’t had any TV credits. You’d think they would look for someone of a high enough caliber or at the very least some experience to call the shots on a show as big as Doctor Who.
@@orangeaceproductions Maybe her portfolio of work was really impressive? I haven’t seen any of it to judge. Or maybe they thought it would a great to give some fresh talent the opportunity?
It has nothing to do with you that I will go shopping with unwashed hair tonight. Nope. Not at all. Edit to add: Wait, it looked as if this were half an hour long. I guess the pre-roll add was half a minute long ...
Things I did like: when Captain Greenbeard was killed (admittedly off-screen) it was with a proper, watery-warbley, original Sea-Devil scream; the TARDIS on the seabed scene was top-notch visually. Things I didn't like: human/Earthling superstition 101 - if you're making a wish, whether it be on a birthday cake, a shooting star, or...a...skimmed pebble (wtf, Chris???), you don't say what your wish is out loud, or it can never come true. We all know it was never going to happen, but by wishing that "This could last forever," 13 has dashed any hope that it can or will.
First episode started slow, but drew me in by the end. Planning to check out the next one maybe tomorrow. I like the different writing style, it feels queer, contemporary, and natural compared to Who on TV these days. First five minutes or so are the in-story podcast on a podcast I thought was cringey at first. But once it got into the narrative proper I liked it.
Apparently it's bloody good actually, although it's WAY too heavily reliant on references for me. However, that's the point of the show apparently, so that's not really a bad thing.
Fucking love prediction corner. It's usually a little bit more interesting than what we ended up getting. Though in this case I'll bet it'll be a heck of a lot better!
Really? That doesn't happen in Hitchhiker's Guide, unless you can be sued for the concept of a restaurant in space. Also, 42 was accused of ripping of a Douglas Adams thing as well, so at least there's precedent.
Sorry, I bloody adored the Sea Devils. But.....I preferred the Pertwee version rather then Chibnals of course, despite my mate Roberts work on the Sea Devil masks and costumes of course, all of which had to be bunged out in under two weeks. For that time and money they're lucky they didn't end up with Tesco bags with 'Sea Devil' written on them. lol
Given that she is definitely the Colin Baker of this era (which implies that 14 will likely be the Doctor that kills the NuWho era for good...), I'm pretty sure it will take some time before she gets behind the idea, but she will inevitably get around to doing at least a few audios in due time
I was happy to see the sea devils again (aside from morbius and fenric they're the only ones worth bringing back). I love that idea of seeing a possible future doctor and yaz being together just before the episode that rips them apart. It's so dark but also gives us their relationship at a finished point and I love it. Yeah the underuse of the pirate queen was bad, they're one of the most successful pirates in history and we get basically nothing about them. When it comes to the sea devils, making them pirates was a fun idea and really the only thing that you can do other than rehashing the the same story again. As a special this isn't good, as a standard story it was meh, somewhat average, I didn't hate it but I didn't love it. I actually like the idea of the doctor not wanting to risk being in a relationship because it will inevitably end in sadness but it really needs more time to actually be explored, doing this in the last 3 episodes is just stupid. Not going to lie ace returning does make me a bit excited but I'm not sure that I trust any of the three show runners (cause I don't view RTD as perfect and the best the show ever was, it was slightly better than doctor who is now and had many flaws) to write her properly and the bbc seem to have made it clear that they aren't going to acknowledge any of her expanded material and just make something new up (if anything I'd like them to stick to the original plan for the character but then they'll have to explain how she's still alive but ace should have also appeared in hell bent along with leela, romana and Susan but it instead focused on the more important plot of bring clara back from the dead, people wonder why I hate hell bent more than the timeless child, one just wasted all the build up to returning to galifrey and the ramifications of the time war, the end of time and time of the doctor, the other one at least creates some possibilities with new past doctors and also explains a very classic who continuity problems by basically finishing a loose thread that was set up several times in order to recreate mystery around the doctor and who they are after seeing galifrey and timelords so many times. That was quite a rant, I should never mention hell bent, where was I). Yeah I'm glad to see my favourite companion return to the show but I'm also worried that they won't do her properly. But at least the show is acknowledging the classic era (which is the one good thing about chibnall compared to RTD who just pretends it doesn't exist).
And Who fans everywhere exclaimed, "Shit, that thing's still on the air? Has Davies shown up yet?" I'm getting more entertainment from the fan theories on how to retcon this era. "Maybe the Time Lords used their time-space visualizers to predict the Master's attack and split off a divergent-timeline version of Gallifrey he could destroy as a decoy." "Maybe Rassilon deployed the Timescoop to remove the Doctor from history and this whole regeneration was an illusion of the Matrix." "Maybe Doctor Ruth really WAS one of Morbius's past lives who called herself the Doctor, and the stories of those missions were what inspired Hartnell to call himself the Doctor when he went rogue." It's fun stuff!
I often feel that the fans clamoring for the return of classic villians are often younger fans who haven't maybe seen the actual classic episodes and mistake the nostalgia of older whovians for genuine quality
For me the episode was fine, nothing more, nothing less. Such a shame this episode barely highlighted the historical characters when this era is so good at giving historical figures the spotlight.
Truly one of Chibnall's worst. Been rewatching Eccleston episodes and it's painful to see how far it's slumped in quality, character development and talent. How the Doctor can consider the dull and lifeless Yaz to be one of her all time faves and choosing her over 60 odd years of more deserving companions is beyond me. I hope Chibnall's fingerprints are nowhere near the upcoming Tennant specials.
I dunno it was bad exactly it's just either I've watched too much Dr who or Chris is underwhelming as a writer, probably a combo of both but the main problem for me with bringing back the sea devils is that they redesigned the Silurians yet have kept the sea devils exactly the same which leaves a biological in show question of why the Silurians changed so dramatically while the devils haven't.
Just a general dull episode. There was no build up - the doctor notices something odd goes around the corner and sees the sea devil straight away and somehow was prepared with a trap. Then you have Dan taking out multiple sea devils. Then you have the whole sacrifice part. I know people had issue with this in the timeless children but this felt so much worse. The annoying thing is his sacrifice made sense but it was the way it was written and the doctor just accepting it. All I can really say is I'd rather watch warriors of the deep 100 percent over this. Warriors of the deep is memorable, even if a bad episode. This is just so forgettable
The BBC does this a lot, but the frequency of adverts leading up to this episode were really hyping it up. As are all the adverts to watch it on the iPlayer... In reality this episode was forgettable at best for me, and I'm a big fan of the programme. The storyline jumped around a lot and didnt make any sense, there were things that happened that didnt need screen time dedicated to it, the Thamsin relationship still feels forced and there were a whole load of contradictions (like The Doctor being annoyed 1 Sea Devil was killed, but Dan killing 6 Sea Devils with 1 swing is fine). Knowing Chibnall has 1 last feature length episode left, I'm thinking it could go one of two ways. The story could have a tonne of things and characters thrown at it, but be it's own thing and leave the majority of previous plot threads untouched. Or, more likely, major plot threads that still need to be covered will be covered, but there are so many at this point that each will be done in a hasty fashion that harms the enjoyment of the story or makes very little sense.
I wanted Ace to come back so fucking bad and the fucking monkey paw gifted me a Chibnall-written Ace episode. I'm gonna cry
Oh don't worry he can't butcher her too badly considering she'll probably only have 5minutes on screen
He'll only decapitate her
Merry Chibmas.
I wanted the Sea Devils
Damn you Monkey paw
Careful what you wish for.
I am so sorry.
This episode really suffered from erratic editing and super quick pacing with lots of “and then this happens” type storytelling. I have little hope for the Centennial be decent and that really sucks. I’d love to have a Chibnall episode I’m entirely positive about.
Too right, edited with a flipping garden weasel. Feels like it's missing a few minutes, and the transitions between existing scenes are often jarring.
Yeah this one was bad. I agree with you, it could have been literally anything. Hell Russell took advantage of the last few stories he wrote some weirder stuff like Midnight or Turn Left. The biggest annoyance for me was the really terrible moment where the doctor shouted at the pirate guy for killing a sea devil, and then 5 minutes later just show John Bishop killing 6 at once. like someone wrote something and forgot what happened a few pages before, and nobody said anything during the whole of the production?
Much like what happened with Thasmin, Chris saw that social media had centered on this thing called "Evil Dan". So, clearly, he's giving the fans what they want.
@@HazarTulum Nah, this episode was made before Evil Dan
Yeah that kinda took me out of it too.
Legitimately, I want to see the interdimensional date night episode. Sounds so much like a experimental Big Finish pitch.
I’d love for it to be a rough recreation of My Dinner With Andrew from The Diary of River Song. Easily one of my favourite recent stories.
If they're looking to bring back old villains, why the hell hasn't the Meddling Monk made an appearance yet? He'd be great in the hands of a halfway competant writer. (I.e. not Chibnal) The Master is my favourite Doctor Who villain but the show leans on him far too much, I think the reason they killed off all the other Time Lords twice over is because for some reason showrunners can't figure out what to do with any Time Lord who isn't either the Doctor or the Master.
Last words- "You haven't seen the last of me Doctor!"
Hell, Big Finish have already cast Rufus Hound in the Missy series as the Monk (and he was a very fun portrayal, a welcome change from the usual angst ridden Timelords Stories of the modern era), so I'm pretty sure they'd be able to do it if they actually wanted to. But you're right, none of the series showrunners have had much love for Timelords other than The Doctor or The Master.
Because Chibs is a hack writer and because he hasn't got a title for the final story he's just called it the ratings apocalypse goes very well with the last episode legacy of a hack writer
@@jakerockznoodles Also sometimes Rassilon. Which is ironic considering he was one Time Lord who was virtually nonexistent in the Classic era.
The Doctor meddles all of the time now, so the Meddling Monk no longer makes sense as a character.
To be honest, one of my earliest and most enduring images from Who was the image of the Sea Devils, emerging from the sea. It was during the 30th, and I was only 7. So yeah, it was going to have an impressionable effect on me. I discovered the Silurians later on, and while I do like them quite a bit, I've never found their look quite as iconic or bizarre as the Sea Devils.
Reminds me of my pitch for a comedy Eighth Doctor episode where he keeps annoying everyone by verbally describing everything that happens
You missed the line where the Doctor says: “He’s in league with the sea devils!” When the treasure captain kneels in front of the sea devil. Just one of many instances of: duh I can see that on screen! In this episode
10 second shot of the sea monster heading towards the pirate ship.
Dan "It's heading towards us".
Press Enter on your remote to activate Audio Navigation.
But now they have the Sea Devil costumes for the next writer to use. Since Chris is on his way out, I'd guess that was the impetus for having them be the villain.
Isn't there going to be a spinoff using them?
The long awaited return of the classic staple Prediction Corner. Hopefully this revival will successfully pander to long time Stubagful fans instead of make them annoyed it’s not how they remember it.
It's episodes like this that make me wish Chibnall had pulled a Greatest Show in the Galaxy and leaned into the meta status of DW as character commentary.
Make this story a quieter one where the Doctor keeps looking for dangers that aren't there because the subtext gradually becoming text over the course of the story would be that experiencing big moments and continual adventures with her companions with no time to breathe or reflect allows her to avoid the loss of identity she's feeling.
Take the observation/criticism that she's minimally characterized and have it be a plot point, with the talks vis-à-vis Yaz gradually illustrating her to be someone unsure of who she is in light of the revelations of the Timeless Child & the destruction of Gallifrey. That could even tie into her doubts about a romantic relationship with Yaz; because she's not sure if it would be for the right reasons or if because it would be one of the few things she could actually define herself with.
If there has to be a monster/alien villain, have it one that's in some ways stand in for current Who, a big, bombastic creature promising to reveal major secrets about the Doctor, only to be quickly defeated in each encounter in shallow fashion by the likes of Yaz because she (in essence) is not going to allow the show's contemporary bad habits interrupt the actual real conversations she's finally getting to have with the Doctor.
I mean, it's an era on its last legs with no expectation of strong ratings until the finale anyway, so as Stuart said, go nuts with it.
Absolutely brilliant.
Not sure if you read the interviews where Chris basically admitted that the Battle of Ranskor Avkolos was basically a first draft, lmao
Honestly your episode pitch about the romantic date between the Doctor and Yaz with limited action that was mostly about introspection and really examining their relationship would've been a million times more memorable
Probably very suited to Chibnall's skillset too (and I'm saying that as someone who's liked this era of the show).
6:35 In fairness, the ‘please quote me’ lines we get now are generally much less blatant and obnoxious than they were in the Moffat years, I find. Possibly because they no longer sound like every sentence has been carefully crafted and pre-meditated to perfection by Steven in the shower the day before writing the script.
None of the lines in this Thasmin scene really test my suspension of disbelief for sentences that real people could come up with on the spot. Comparing it to Moffatt’s heart-to-hearts, for example the ‘I’m not running away from things, I’m running to them’ bit from Angels Take Manhattan, I can’t help but consider what we have now significantly less irritating.
I actually agree with this. I really hate a lot of Moffat's dialogue, and that's not even limited to Doctor Who. I had exactly the same problem with Sherlock and Jekyll as well. They often just talk in trailer or motivational poster speak, or coming up with "witty" exchanges pre-designed to end up in some RUclips compilation.
Chibnall's dialogue issue to me is just that it feels more "stage", where they discuss happenings or feelings like characters in a play or drama and it doesn't feel woven into the action very well (which is probably why people find pacing issues). Russel's era had A LOT of blatant exposition, but there was often people running around and doing stuff as it was being delivered, so people didn't notice the same.
"I'm not running away from things, I'm running to them" is actually from Power of Three, which coincidently is written by Chris Chibnall.
@@Deathlygunn Curb your enthusiasm plays
@@Deathlygunn Shit, you’re right. In that case, a better example would be the Zygon Inversion speech. Capaldi delivers it well, but man was it playing into the ‘motivational social media post’ crowd. Or for another one, how about the ‘fear is a superpower’ speech from Listen. The sort of writing that calls your attention to the writer behind it instead of the character saying it, which really isn’t what you want for lines that are supposed to be coming from the heart.
I agree, but I don't care about immersion or suspension of disbelief. I usually prefer baroque overly-mannered try-hard writing to the pedestrian, lazy, or mediocre.
As for Chibnall, his character-focused writing doesn't bother me as much as his half-baked plot mechanics or attention to detail (such as they are).
It sucks that, not only will Chibnall probably shit all over one of most bittersweet and soul crushing companion exits with Saward's Resurrection of the Daleks, but his episode will also supersede every other continuity and have the final say on how and why exactly Ace left the Doctor. So yeah, that'll be fun...
Continuity is an illusion - especially on Doctor Who
They took a historical figure I REALLY wanted to see in a doctor who story and ignored everything that makes her interesting. They made her a 'tough aunt' figure. She could easily have been the focus.
they should have shown the prostitution and marrying her son in a children's tv show 😏
@@dickottel Well obviously not something that daft, leave that for the VNAs. I was thinking more that the TARDIS crew arrives during her fleet's raiding of the pearl river just around the time she is getting desperate and facing villager militias. Not something this era would bother with, I know, but this episode was the equivalent of Blackbeard turning up on his lonesome and having to get an alien maguffin or the crew of the Queen Anne's Revenge will be executed
As someone who has wanted Noor Inayat Khan in DW for years upon years, I feel your pain.
literally even your joke ideas sound really good xDD
Stu you have to stop suggesting infinitely superior ideas for Who episodes. Now all I can think about is how good that Doctor/Yaz multidimensional restaurant episode could be.
I'm not a big shipping person, but the fact that that basic premise would provide *actual progression* for their relationship and characters makes it automatically better than what we got
Yeah doctor who has a huge problem where it doesn't let our characters stop and just let their emotions sit there for just one episode
On of the best things about the trailers for the Blu-Ray box sets are the appearance of the old companions and what they are up to now (in mini adventures) I think Chibbs picked up on that and is trying to drum up interest in the last special using that concept.
That Doctor walk cycle and juggling sequence genuinely impressed me
To be honest downloading some Big Finish Unbound stories I got on the sale was 1000x more entertaining than the episode.
Let’s see Exile Doctor go up against Thirteen
I’d murder to see Mark Gattis as the Master on a tv story. I’d much rather see that than the Lazurus Experiment.
Actually I'd watch that date. To be honest.....
1. Its the only way to develop Thasmin in.the time left.
2. Its exactly the change of pace we need before a finale.
3. Actually I'm a bit peckish myself so any information on dining options would be helpful.
0:59 that's true there are so many fans who will argue that something like revenge of the cybermen isn't crap just cause it was made in the 70s but say anything made by jnt is auto crap
Many of the crappy episodes of classic Who are at least amusingly bad. Some can be slow enough that I just fall asleep. I'd totally invite everybody here to my crib to get ripped and watch Time Flight.
@@voltijuice8576 time flight is a JNT episode though. So it's already got half the classic fans hating it.
@@nifralo2752 - Not surprising that they would, it's terrible! But it's an entertaining kind of terrible.
IMO the JNT era was shaped more by the script editors anyway.
@@voltijuice8576 that's true as JNT was the only producer/show runner who wasn't a writer and lest be honest by the tome of McCoy he was just rubber stamping. Cartnal was the de Facto producer. And in jet's defence Saward also didn't get Dr Who either. Jnt saw it as fluff and seaward saw it as pound shop star wars and star ship troopers. When it was never either
That episode about ocean pollution would have been a perfect fit for Sea Devils.
Wouldn't mind a parody of Stu voicing 13 tbh
This episode made me laugh hysterically numerous times, my personal favorite being sea man jumping 50 ft in one step
entire episode felt like a placeholder script
Yeah, I really wish they would have gone a bit more off-the-wall with Jodie's last few stories. People seem to dislike this run anyway, so what have you got to lose? TBH I really liked Flux and for me a lot of that was in just how weird some of it was.
So the Sea Devils wanted to drown the world, possibly drowning some of their Silurian cousins. Sounds about right
YOUR DINNER DATE IDEA WOULD BE THE BEST EPISODE IN THE ENTIRE RUN OF 13TH DOCTOR EPISODES.
Stu, please, please, please write the date episode! And please include your own blood-curdling versions of re-postable Facebook quotes!!! We need something good to remember this era by
As someone who hasnt kept up with the show since Series 12, its incredible that your random intergalactic restaurant episode pitch was instantly more intriguing to me than any of the promotion for legend of the sea devils. The show is doing nothing fresh to reel in viewers.
It doesn’t need. It’s got a massive army of fans.
Stu: “I’m Frightened”.
Me: We’re All Scared Stuart…*Leans in Uncomfortable Close* You’d Have To Be Crazy Not To Be Scared…
There was also the almost headache inducing editing in this episode. One of the many ‘what were they thinking?’ parts of a very boring special.
8:24 "Oh wow, Ace is coming back and so is Tegan and presumably more companions...with Chris' name on the writing credits. (Moment of silence) I'm frightened." Me too mate, me too.
should have picked the vervoids fellas...
Nah I got an ointment for that
glad to hear you shifted that nasty vervoid infection. as for the pubic macra? theres a special shampoo for that.
Apparently Krillitane is good for that, if they have any jars of it in your local Boots...
plus it's great on chips too.
Seeing Ace coming back for the next episode made my heart drop. Because I really liked the idea that the 7th Doctor did end up getting Ace a spot into the Time Lord academy and she eventually did become a Time Lord in her own right. And pettily, I also just like the idea that Ace just grabs Clara and Ashildr after their final exit and takes them to Galifrey to end their travels before they can affect the timeline any further. But those little headcanons are set to die by the time I view the next episode.
That theory had already been put to bed in the Sarah Jane adventures, where it was established she settled down on earth & set up a charity organisation.
I like to think that the Doctor intended to make her a time lord but she refused & went back home to make difference to her planet, which I kind of hope is how it is in the special.
@@pcb1175 I haven't forgotten about "A Charitable Earth". Definitely weakens my argument/headcanon desire a bit. But I could always imagine that it's an organization Time Lord Ace set up at some point (either secretly or openly, depends on how non-interference the Time Lords are currently) or that it's just a coincidence it's initials spell out Ace's name. Or discredit it by simply not caring about a small throw away line that was meant only to be a fun call back to another old character.
Ace's actually character returning is much more impactful on my self-indulgent, and admittedly more than a little petty, idea.
@@thelemonadestandman i have the idea that "A Charitable Earth" is, A for more then just humans and, B a way to ground Ace, some one that's needs a home and is damaged by her lose of roots in much of the expanded media.
Does anyone aside from the usual Twitter people care about The Doctor and Yaz ?
I do. I thought this was an interesting way to take it, and I thought it was handled nicely.
In one scene, Jodie chastises a pirate for killing a Sea Devil, but is later okay with Dan killing 6 Sea Devils at the same time.
Guess we know what kind of soup Evil Dan has been eating lately!
Is it safe to assume you don't have much of a reaction to the reveal of the 14th Doctor?
For as pitifully inept as they were, would love to see a return of the Krotons. I haven't seen too many of the Troughton shows, but that one has something special/goofy about it.
Was nice to get some representation for southeast Asian actors which I've kind of felt. The new show has neglected somewhat.
The trick to watching this episode was to flip channels & watch the antiques roadshow instead, you just failed to understand how Chibnal wanted this episode to be consumed & thus had an inferior viewing experience of this masterpiece.
There was actually a planned *pre*quel to Timelash back during the PDA era but it got canned. A sequel to Timelash where say the Doctor watches as a cult of the Borad's followers try to bring back his fanatical rule on a Karfel rebuilding from the Borad's rule would be interesting. Although it would probably work better as a standalone spinoff.
Chibnall said at some point he expects people to be watching the episode while on the phone at the same time so I assume characters saying what is happening on screen is for those people(?)
I’ve heard that somewhere before & it’s baffling that he’s chosen writing decisions that detract how effective the storytelling is so he can appeal to people who aren’t interested in what they’re watching
You have no idea the grin of anticipation that spread across my face when this video appeared in my feed
P.s. it delivered
The thing that annoyed me most is something no one seems to care about. That one guy who saw his dad murdered in front of him, then spends the rest of the episode grinning like an idiot and laughing and joking. Even though maybe 15 minutes has passed at most when he starts. I guess Batman should just get over it and become Adam West. 15 minutes is all it takes.
RTD's second era can't come any quicker.
Fish people? Nah, reptiles.
Enter Bluebottle in Sea Devil outfit made from Mum's old drawers. Pauses for audience applause, not a Silurian.
I think you discovered the cross-promotional Blue Peter crafts project.
I don’t know if it’s better or worse that it took until the second to last episode for the Chibnall era to lose any and all enthusiasm from me…
This one made “Warriors of the Deep” look like a masterpiece. Finally I get my redemption as I always liked that 80s classic despite the mryka.
Yeah, I’m also not a fan
Seriously, you could replace the Sea Devils with another villain and it would be exactly the same. I wish they used the Sea Devils in a way to introduce new fans to the villains properly and to entice them to check out the Pertwee serial
Writing was bad, lighting was bad, editing was bad, CGI was TERRIBLE etc etc
I totally agree when you said that an off the wall, experimental episode would have been cooler
Only thing this episode did for me was make me want to watch pirates of the Caribbean.
Pirate Queen. Sea Devil in period attire. Episode called "Legends of the Sea Devils." All the makings of a Sea Devil pirate story. Instead, Sea Devils are generic evil villains looking to (re)take over the planet. Complete with magical powers that would have lent themselves to the pirate angle.
Costumes are nice though.
Have Classic fans given up on the New Series? I don't know, but I could see why.
Speaking for myself, I gave up on the show during S11.
@@slumdogjay I envy you
@@theultimatevideoman1143 Haha 😁
Personally I've been looking at the older serials and Big Finish lately. Mainly because I do plan on creating my own adventures
"Yeah, fuck it - that will do."
This is literally how I feel the meetings go 😂
I think doing a prequel to the doctor the widow and the wardrobe would be too far. Also, come on, you know what the quarks are
Lol yes I did need to Google them to get that image 😜
Two particles short of a Hawkwind album, that's what they are!
The directing on this one was also quite poor. Whoever they got for the episode really didn’t know how to do action sequences. There were so many unnecessary closeups, awkward cutaways, and weird staging that made it hard to follow what was happening mid-fight. Like the Doctor sliding down the side of the ship the Sea Devil walking downstairs and somehow meeting at the bottom at the exact same time was dizzying.
The director for this episode, Haolu Wang had only previously done short films, with this being her first TV credit. I feel sorry for her personally, directing is already a challenging role & to have it be for a high end TV show with lots of VFX & stunts plus having to follow covid regulations on set, it puts more pressure on the job & sadly the end product came out looking really poor.
@@pcb1175 Really? I wonder why they would bring her on if she hadn’t had any TV credits. You’d think they would look for someone of a high enough caliber or at the very least some experience to call the shots on a show as big as Doctor Who.
@@orangeaceproductions Maybe her portfolio of work was really impressive? I haven’t seen any of it to judge. Or maybe they thought it would a great to give some fresh talent the opportunity?
Also love when the doctor throws a stone and it shoots back so Dan says your skimmings a bit off
1:27 - that sounds like a good idea, and that is exactly why we will never gonna see that
It has nothing to do with you that I will go shopping with unwashed hair tonight. Nope. Not at all.
Edit to add: Wait, it looked as if this were half an hour long. I guess the pre-roll add was half a minute long ...
Bring back the Krotons cowards
I actually wouldn't mind if the quarks showed up.
Things I did like: when Captain Greenbeard was killed (admittedly off-screen) it was with a proper, watery-warbley, original Sea-Devil scream; the TARDIS on the seabed scene was top-notch visually.
Things I didn't like: human/Earthling superstition 101 - if you're making a wish, whether it be on a birthday cake, a shooting star, or...a...skimmed pebble (wtf, Chris???), you don't say what your wish is out loud, or it can never come true. We all know it was never going to happen, but by wishing that "This could last forever," 13 has dashed any hope that it can or will.
Imagine if he did bring back the Myrka and made it successful!
Sooo... Talking about audio, are y'all listening to Doctor Who: Redacted? Any thoughts so far?
First episode started slow, but drew me in by the end. Planning to check out the next one maybe tomorrow. I like the different writing style, it feels queer, contemporary, and natural compared to Who on TV these days. First five minutes or so are the in-story podcast on a podcast I thought was cringey at first. But once it got into the narrative proper I liked it.
Apparently it's bloody good actually, although it's WAY too heavily reliant on references for me. However, that's the point of the show apparently, so that's not really a bad thing.
Fucking love prediction corner. It's usually a little bit more interesting than what we ended up getting.
Though in this case I'll bet it'll be a heck of a lot better!
legend of the sneedevils
I was genuinely more hyped for prediction corner coming back than the trailer for the next episode.
Chris Chibnell thinking about his final script after listening to prediction corner, thinking. Crap, why didn't I do that ? ? ?
If Chris magically makes Ace straight next episode I swear to god I'll have a haemorrhage
I always thought Ace was bi. I'm pretty sure she was attracted to that one guy who turned out to be a racist in Remembrance of the Daleks.
She hooks up with Cyberwoman Lisa and Ianto's ghost cries for 20 minutes.
Your Doctor and Yaz meet their future selves in an intergalactic restaurant idea sounds bloody brilliant actually, I'd definitely watch that.
But they could be accused of ripping off hitchhiker’s guide if they weren’t careful
Really? That doesn't happen in Hitchhiker's Guide, unless you can be sued for the concept of a restaurant in space.
Also, 42 was accused of ripping of a Douglas Adams thing as well, so at least there's precedent.
Cannot believe u just told me the sea devils don’t hold up…. Very disappointed…. One of my all time favourites 😢
Been waiting for this can't wait!
Okay but when the sea devil calls the Doctor a twat 😳😳😳
I'm still super confused about how the dr and Yaz saw a flying ancient chinese ship and then were super confused as to where the shipwreck has gone...
Sorry, I bloody adored the Sea Devils. But.....I preferred the Pertwee version rather then Chibnals of course, despite my mate Roberts work on the Sea Devil masks and costumes of course, all of which had to be bunged out in under two weeks. For that time and money they're lucky they didn't end up with Tesco bags with 'Sea Devil' written on them. lol
I wish the Corsair was Sao the Pirate Queen
I believe the clean shaven Master is a good version of the Master from the second universe alluded to by Tecteun
Will Jodie even do audio serials that could redeem her doctor? I kinda get the feeling she's just gonna be out after the last special.
Given that she is definitely the Colin Baker of this era (which implies that 14 will likely be the Doctor that kills the NuWho era for good...), I'm pretty sure it will take some time before she gets behind the idea, but she will inevitably get around to doing at least a few audios in due time
I was happy to see the sea devils again (aside from morbius and fenric they're the only ones worth bringing back).
I love that idea of seeing a possible future doctor and yaz being together just before the episode that rips them apart. It's so dark but also gives us their relationship at a finished point and I love it.
Yeah the underuse of the pirate queen was bad, they're one of the most successful pirates in history and we get basically nothing about them.
When it comes to the sea devils, making them pirates was a fun idea and really the only thing that you can do other than rehashing the the same story again.
As a special this isn't good, as a standard story it was meh, somewhat average, I didn't hate it but I didn't love it.
I actually like the idea of the doctor not wanting to risk being in a relationship because it will inevitably end in sadness but it really needs more time to actually be explored, doing this in the last 3 episodes is just stupid.
Not going to lie ace returning does make me a bit excited but I'm not sure that I trust any of the three show runners (cause I don't view RTD as perfect and the best the show ever was, it was slightly better than doctor who is now and had many flaws) to write her properly and the bbc seem to have made it clear that they aren't going to acknowledge any of her expanded material and just make something new up (if anything I'd like them to stick to the original plan for the character but then they'll have to explain how she's still alive but ace should have also appeared in hell bent along with leela, romana and Susan but it instead focused on the more important plot of bring clara back from the dead, people wonder why I hate hell bent more than the timeless child, one just wasted all the build up to returning to galifrey and the ramifications of the time war, the end of time and time of the doctor, the other one at least creates some possibilities with new past doctors and also explains a very classic who continuity problems by basically finishing a loose thread that was set up several times in order to recreate mystery around the doctor and who they are after seeing galifrey and timelords so many times. That was quite a rant, I should never mention hell bent, where was I). Yeah I'm glad to see my favourite companion return to the show but I'm also worried that they won't do her properly. But at least the show is acknowledging the classic era (which is the one good thing about chibnall compared to RTD who just pretends it doesn't exist).
The easiest ones to bring back are those that were only ever rubbish in the first place.
Not only do I think this era is the worst era of Dr Who I think it's the worst era of genre TV I've seen.
Can confirm, the beach Thasmin scene did go wild on Tumblr. So it worked, unfortunately.
Review Heartstopper
And Who fans everywhere exclaimed, "Shit, that thing's still on the air? Has Davies shown up yet?"
I'm getting more entertainment from the fan theories on how to retcon this era. "Maybe the Time Lords used their time-space visualizers to predict the Master's attack and split off a divergent-timeline version of Gallifrey he could destroy as a decoy." "Maybe Rassilon deployed the Timescoop to remove the Doctor from history and this whole regeneration was an illusion of the Matrix." "Maybe Doctor Ruth really WAS one of Morbius's past lives who called herself the Doctor, and the stories of those missions were what inspired Hartnell to call himself the Doctor when he went rogue." It's fun stuff!
Do they ever actually explain who the sea devil are in this?
Yeah there’s one bit of explosion the Doctor says to Yaz about who they are & what they want. Aside from that they’re just generic Doctor Who bad guys
did yaz and the doc even kiss? what sort of relationship do they even have?
I often feel that the fans clamoring for the return of classic villians are often younger fans who haven't maybe seen the actual classic episodes and mistake the nostalgia of older whovians for genuine quality
Ie. Just beacuse you have a memory of a favrioute monster from when you where young dosent mean that they are complelling enough for a return
5:31
They're Quarks.
I see your 'shipping' pun and raise you:
The ship in this episode is, as you would expect, (a) junk
Btw, why is it called the "centenary" special when it's the 60th anniversary, not the 100th?
The next special is during the 100th anniversary celebrations for the BBC later this year, next year is the 60th anniversary.
The centenary special is for the 100th anniversary of the BBC. The 60th anniversary special will come out next year and introduce the 14th Doctor.
1:19 I'm stealing that idea... just so you know...
how old a tha bois?
Just awful, mind-numbing TV.
For me the episode was fine, nothing more, nothing less. Such a shame this episode barely highlighted the historical characters when this era is so good at giving historical figures the spotlight.
Truly one of Chibnall's worst. Been rewatching Eccleston episodes and it's painful to see how far it's slumped in quality, character development and talent. How the Doctor can consider the dull and lifeless Yaz to be one of her all time faves and choosing her over 60 odd years of more deserving companions is beyond me. I hope Chibnall's fingerprints are nowhere near the upcoming Tennant specials.
I dunno it was bad exactly it's just either I've watched too much Dr who or Chris is underwhelming as a writer, probably a combo of both but the main problem for me with bringing back the sea devils is that they redesigned the Silurians yet have kept the sea devils exactly the same which leaves a biological in show question of why the Silurians changed so dramatically while the devils haven't.
Just a general dull episode. There was no build up - the doctor notices something odd goes around the corner and sees the sea devil straight away and somehow was prepared with a trap. Then you have Dan taking out multiple sea devils.
Then you have the whole sacrifice part. I know people had issue with this in the timeless children but this felt so much worse. The annoying thing is his sacrifice made sense but it was the way it was written and the doctor just accepting it.
All I can really say is I'd rather watch warriors of the deep 100 percent over this. Warriors of the deep is memorable, even if a bad episode. This is just so forgettable
The BBC does this a lot, but the frequency of adverts leading up to this episode were really hyping it up. As are all the adverts to watch it on the iPlayer...
In reality this episode was forgettable at best for me, and I'm a big fan of the programme. The storyline jumped around a lot and didnt make any sense, there were things that happened that didnt need screen time dedicated to it, the Thamsin relationship still feels forced and there were a whole load of contradictions (like The Doctor being annoyed 1 Sea Devil was killed, but Dan killing 6 Sea Devils with 1 swing is fine).
Knowing Chibnall has 1 last feature length episode left, I'm thinking it could go one of two ways. The story could have a tonne of things and characters thrown at it, but be it's own thing and leave the majority of previous plot threads untouched. Or, more likely, major plot threads that still need to be covered will be covered, but there are so many at this point that each will be done in a hasty fashion that harms the enjoyment of the story or makes very little sense.
An episode with Yaz & 13 like you describe would be interesting. Might actually get me to check it out