Hello, friends. What do you think about this format of the video? Would you like to watch such videos in future? I will continue to post emergencies as well.
Recommend listening to enroute controllers, zero ICAO verbiage in the USA. "Ooooohhhhhh" is not a number, "ZERO" is. Twelve point five is not an altitude. I'd love to see a segment on proper radio phraseology, everybody has forgotten. Good luck finding anybody who does it right.
I'm a London TMA controller, if an aircraft checks in callsign only when they shouldn't I simply respond with 'pass your message' - saying 'hello' back because they are 'wrong' is being a petulant child.
at busy airports like LHR you only say the callsing when you check in, and in the States apparently you are expected to say the runway also. I understand both parts here, however the ATC only saying “hello”, knowing what she was doing, is just dumb. making an issue where there is none.
This was intentionally aggravating on ATC's part and is not particularly helpful. This makes it sound like Speedbird popped up unexpectedly on the D-BRITE and the local controller doesn't have a strip in front of them telling them exactly what is going on. This from the tower that cleared four airplanes to cross an active runway with a takeoff clearance. Don't act like your $#!+ don't stink KJFK - we ain't buying it.
Agree. "Hello" is so unhelpful. Many approach controllers will say "when established call Tower on 1xx.xx, callsign only." In this case, we don't know what the approach controller said.
@@ColorNerdChris Must be NY... "teach pilots a lesson" by choosing responses that are guaranteed to waste time on frequency, instead of just "Speedbird 15K, I need your intentions" or, you know, anything. But nah, let the aircraft think it has a radio failure and cause an unnecessary distraction on the flight deck on approach as well as a whole stack of unnecessary calls.
And the controlling, too. Clearing multiple aircraft to land is really a bad procedure and does not guarantee a sterile runway. These NYC controllers are poor quality, listen to LHR controllers dealing with radio calls from foreign aircraft, trying to smooth their journeys and keep traffic flowing easily, no snarky comments, just professional ATC in action, 24x7, 365.
@@jamesgraham7297there’s nothing inherently wrong with clearing multiple aircraft to land. It’s up to the controller to ensure that the runway is clear for each aircraft. Poor procedure is issuing line up and wait to departure aircraft behind aircraft on the approach.
@@keith7003 It is very wrong to do so. In america controllers typically "clear to land" a plane even if they're 4th on final and there's 3 planes infront of them. This is not only dangerous but also doesn't make sense? Because the runway is obviously not clear. The rest of the world would normally say "hello, number 1,2,3,4 continue approach" until its CLEAR.
Just saying 'Hello' as a response is, in itself, not very helpful. How is the BA crew supposed to know that's directed at them? Really childish and petulant on the part of ATC. How to make an issue out of absolutely nothing.
How many years has BA operated in and out of JFK? 47 years maybe? BA pilots and operations know the US TERPS procedures inside out, no excuses, the pilot should have known better. Yes the controllers were snarky and rude but what do you expect? It's New York, ALL NYers are rude to foreigners.
100%. If I was that controllers supervisor, she’d be immediately relieved of her duties for some ‘retraining’. But knowing JFK, the irony is her peers probably praised her attitude instead of questioning it. Her petulance was completely unnecessary, and unprofessional.
Interesting. LHR often specifically tells pilots to check in with "call sign only' on approach as it cuts down on unnecessary communications during busy arrivals.
That was ridiculous and unprofessional on the part of the controller in the British Airways situation. She was playing games like an immature middle-schooler. She could have simply said, "confirm intentions" and they would have said ILS 4L.
@@frankfurter7260They can push tin but they can’t manage to drop the attitude. You notice how everyone is put off by their petulant responses? It’s because they’re not used to dealing with combative attitudes in a professional setting. Speak to people like adults.
In fact every controller in these scenarios is being an idiot and are totally unprofessional. They all know where the planes checking in are and are simply on a power trip. Let’s hope pilots start picking up ATC every time they err - it’s about time these idiots at JFK start respecting their aviation colleagues rather than seeking to belittle them at every opportunity. Sad indictment of JFK.
Agreed. Especially the taxi instructions to Nippon. The pilots are working their way around a complex airport, with an aircraft that has many restrictions as to which taxiways are suitable - in a language not their own, and this jerk controller makes it worse by refusing to speak more slowly and clearly! Some of these controllers seem to need a 'day off' to cool down.
The controller is only working a single runway and it's solely for arrivals. Where else is the aircraft calling going to be other than on approach to that runway? It will also already be on their strips and the radar screen. Unless I'm missing something it just seems like a silly ego play.
I like that they do it this way because it is another chance to catch any mistakes the pilots may be making. Its not unheard of for pilots to accedentally make an approach into a parallel runway
No, it’s a microcosm of drift on the pilot’s side of the mic. Just check in correctly, because we are tired of correcting you all the time. And remember, if you screw up on the frequency, it’s OUR fault.
@@A80traconThere is no drift from the pilot side. The problem is the standardization of radiotelephony between EASA, CAA and FAA. Over London, you give the call sign only and this is also precised by Approach before to be released to the tower. That is a BA Aircraft, they are used to that. If JFK wants something different, they can precise it in their gen charts as do many different airport. But the lady controlling just one runway doesn't “teach” at the right moment and does not even have to teach. Her role is to control. That is all.
@@A80tracon These are correct 'check in' protocols at many places in the world. If "y'all" want something different - publish it on the approach charts - or be professional and simply reply properly without the sarcasm and blah blah.
1) The answer is not Hello, is Go Ahead. That's what the BA was waiting to hear. In Europe in busy airports normally you say your callsign only to keep the frequency available and let the controller organise the queue. Anyways, very unprofessional way to handle the radios by ATC
@@JimMacintosh So you are not allowed to give examples how situations like these are handled in other parts of the world, because "JFK is in American"?
I didn't hear it that way. What I heard was the captain of a very wide jet trying to work out what the route will be to parking. It sounded to me that he didn't want to accept taxi instructions until he understood that he would not wind up stuck somewhere.
@@castletown999 Yep... I feel like the Japanese pilots were always the ones who had no choice but to compromise with ATC in the US. They often have a language barrier with their accent; hopefully, more US ATCs can understand that and be nicer.
Regarding the first one, British pilots are used to speak with limited info on the radio. This is because at busy airports like LHR, LGW and NYC, the radio must be kept open for othr traffic too.
I'm not a pilot, not even that close. Just a aviation entusiastic. One of the things that I can take from this video is the fantastic pilots professionalism on the 3 situations. Congrats to them. To the controllers, I only have to say, "You have an considerable amount of lack of humility.".
“Oh you just said your callsign, I didn’t know!” But then knew exactly where he was and that he was 4.5 miles behind the heavy. Sounds like he knew full well who he was and where he was.
It's the ICAO vs FAA difference, outside the states it's normal to check in with the call sign only however it's not worth making a big deal out of nothing with those 2 guys who probably have been flying for maybe the last 11 hours crossing multiple time zones. Afa, Nippon cargo, they did the right thing. 748 and 380 are severely restricted on many taxiways and probably if in doubt it's better to ask than to assume and end up in soup. Good job Nippon cargo crew.
I checked the charts for JFK and at this moment, there’s nothing restricting those taxiways for B748 aircraft but a NOTAM could have changed that. ATC is usually aware of those restrictions however and he did state that he had a plan but culture and language barriers make that difficult to convey
@JD_SoarZ Indeed, but companies have additional restrictions at a certain airports and are usually more restrictive than notams, I fly for a ME Major and we see it all the time.
I like how, with the first interacation, you can exactly fill in what either side was thinking or saying off frequency... Female 1.FO, checking in: "tower, hello, speedbird 15K heavy" tower: bah, "hello!?". Girl, are you kidding me? Let's teach you some phraseology today. I'll just ignore you for now. Let's see if you learn. 1.FO: "tower, hello, speedbird 15K heavy" tower: "hello? ... hello?". Hehehe, girl, you didn't learn yet. Gotcha! Captain: hmm, do we have a radio or mike fault? Taking over: "tower, 15K, are you receiving me?" ... Tower: "... Speedbird 15K, rwy 4R, cleared to land." Long pause. Meanwhile, off frequency, inside the cockpit: 1.FO: "I don't believe it! She's such an id**t!!!" Captain: "Yep. Just ignore it. Remain professional, we're British..." 1.FO: *click* long long and deep sigh on frequency, "rwy 4R, cleared to land, speedbird 15K heavy" ...
Main thing wrong here is the FAA is behind the rest of the ICAO world where checking in on tower frequency is usually dictated as callsign only. It’s not 1950s anymore, most towers have a RADAR and know exactly where the arrival is, so the position information is superfluous.
Well, while that may be true, the need to state your type of approach and distance sometimes comes down to airport layout. If you have an aircraft executing an ILS approach, then anyone needing to depart from the same runway (taking distance into consideration) will have to hold outside of of the scope of the glideslope beam, and needs to be instructed accordingly.
I call bullshit that “they don’t know” or are not expecting the aircraft. Very specific flight data is exchanged between the tower and control center. They are 100% expecting these aircraft for a specific runway at specific times. This is just petty.
The "Hello!" really got me. 😅 The controllers at JFK are already short on patience/ Keying up sounding like Biff from Back to the Future yelling Hello is surely not going to help the pilot make any friends. Next time I am at my small local I fly out of, I am going to ask them how they would respond to that. I know one of them would probably tell me that pilot will end up in a holding pattern for a time out. LOL!!
It's interesting to note that in the UK at the London control centre the biggest problem that controllers have with language issues is with American pilots. Who apparently speak the same language. Thank god for CPDLC. That's computerised messaging for those that don't know and helps reduce voice comms. It gives controllers more thinking time as well.
Speedbird contacted the tower with their Call sign, the Controller responds with 'Hello' like she's answering a telephone call. Hello isn't official phraseology and she could've been saying hello to anyone on the frequency. Then she tries to be cute with Speedbird for not responding to her 'hello'. So uncool, so unprofessional.
Love it. All pilots and controllers know they are supposed to check in with their position; the JFK controllers are very busy and don't have time for pilots who don't follow the rules of communication. They get tired of it and are trying to coax the pilots to communicate more efficiently. Agree that simply responding "hello" is a waste of time. A simple "say position when you check in" would be a better way of doing business.
Absolutely apalling from JFK ATC on the first one. They knew where the BA was and created a situation that wasn’t needed. JFK ATC generally is an utter disgrace these days. Entitled and rude.
That’s why JFK is known as Lagos West by many European crews. You wouldnt employ these fools in McDonald’s. Been in the Flightdeck many times into JFK in my past life. Dangerous, appallingly unaware in regard to our aircraft types operate and as said entitled. Not the brightest bunch.
After watching this lesson on proper identity and reading comments below makes me happy I am retired. I will however say this. When checking in to any ATC controller for the first time and using their ID only certainly isn't how I learned to do it. Perhaps I'm different, I always liked having a mental picture of where I was in relationship to other A/C on approach, departure and so on. The controllers response may seem childish, but he or she made their point clear.
It's funny because a lot of times people defend the JFK ATC for being an extremely busy and demanding airspace, yet the controllers often seem to have quite a lot of time for these stupid games. Also, ATC in the US complaining about phraseology and procedures is ironic when they themselves use a lot of non-standard expressions that are explicitly taught to be avoided, like "to" 🙃.
Little background from european APP/ACC ATCo here: Firstly - tower controllers at large busy airports like JFK always have radar and can see where the aircraft is, its callsign, altitude and direction. Secondly - as far as IFR, controlled traffic is concerned, they ALWAYS have flight plan of the flight and estimated time of entry into their airspace. They know when the aircraft will come and that they are supposed to land! ATCo has all the information he needs! So their behaviour is just unproffesional and ridicolous, its like they don't realise at all they are there to serve, not to annoy and bully the pilots.
Although not necessarily depicted above, the airwaves can get terribly busy and its hard to get a word in sometimes. Checking in with the above short rt message helps to bring your aircraft into the forefront of ATC's minds, as well as decluttering the frequencies.
Tower controller giving attitude in one of the most critical phases of flight is ridiculous, and only causes more confusion. If she had something to say, she could've said something after they had landed and were on the taxiway.
I don’t see what the BA crew did wrong here. It’s common practice to check in on a new frequency along the lines of JFK Tower Speedbird 15K Heavy. The response from tower should have been “Speedbird 15K Heavy, pass your message” after which they would have said “Speedbird 15K Heavy established on the ILS for 04R”
As a controller for decades including a major international airport, I have to say these were uncalled for. However I do understand the frustration with Nippon Cargo.
As someone who recently started flying to Europe, where at LHR, for example, you may be instructed checkin call sign only, I can see how these landing pilots would do this. We’re still using a system from 1970, whereas the rest of the world seems to be so much farther along…they know where you are and what you’re doing. These controllers were just being snarky and I dare say, a bit unprofessional.
That's just the tower being high on their ego. Pilots: Kennedy Tower, hello, Speedbird 15K. ATC: Speedbird 15K, Kennedy Tower, hello. Say intention (or Speedbird 15K, Kennedy Tower, Hello, go ahead")
Sounds like a smart ass culture there in Kennedy tower. That type of thing starts at the top spreads downward.... must have a supervisor there that has issues.
I feel sorry for the Japanese pilots; their thick accents and the controllers' petulance weren't a good combination. I wish the controllers had more patience and cut the foreign pilots a little slack. Sometimes it's a pilots first time at an airport and they've got no clue where to go. Impatient controllers add more tension to an already tense situation.
Doesn’t matter. They have no business flying then. You listen to the controller and repeat back. They can’t even understand that part. Either brush up your English or leave the flight deck
You have to understand that NYC airports, including KEWR, is a very busy area and just imagine the controllers driving or using public transportation just to get to work is a huge pain in the arse. It's very stressful in NYC, so I honestly dont blame them. They try to do their best.
They should have replied with, “Kennedy Tower, HELLO . Speedbird, which is the callsign for British Airways, wun fife keeelo heavy, two tousand feet on QNH - or altimeter as you call it - 1332, showing 10 nautical miles to run to the threshold of zero fower right. We are anticipating landing on that runway, fully expect you know that too. What would you like us to do next ma’am or sir?”
You are not a pilot, are you? QNH is not 'altimeter' it is nautical height, as opposed to QFE which is 'field elevation'. Both are read using an altimeter. Why is it necessary to quote altitude and DME in a controlled environment? This verbose compost would block a busy frequency. It should go 'Speedbird 15 heavy with Kilo', 'Pass your message' 'Speedbird 15 heavy established 04R.
Putting an end to non standard phraseology by using non standard phraseology is wild. All these airports in the world with international traffic, and yet the problem always seems to be at JFK. Hmm... I fly there and hate it. They're both great and terrible at their job at the same time.
No, the problem is ATC at JFK. They think they're God's gift to aviation and only the way they do things, is how it should be. When, in fact, in pretty much everywhere else in the world is not how they do things. Like checking on with tower with a call sign. Everywhere else, it's actually standard when checking on, to just call up with a call sign. They know exactly where you are, and what you're doing.
Who would have more experience?? A controller who only ever has seen JFK? Or an international heavy pilot, flying all over the world, to hundreds of different airports.
Between JFK/LGA/EWR these guys move traffic like no where else. And pushing for standard phraseology should be no brainer, checking in with a ‘Hello’ this isn’t LHR.
I would love for the first controller in this video to operate in a busy London TMA environment. How are those 4 aircraft on frequency doing for you, already separated. Fantastic money earned there, what a waste of cash. Callsign calls on frequency, first response is "C/S, station ident, pass your message" none of this childish crap. This video attempted to show "controllers teaching pilots how to use radio" when in actual fact all it has done is shine more light on the unprofessionalism at JFK headed by undeserving entitlement. I think I speak for the majority of the aviation industry here in that, we loathe you - get better.
1/3 - appropriate for controller to respond the way she did - BA Heavy never gave any indication of where they were headed until the other pilot finally did. 2/3 - Again, the controller on the NCA was very clear and spoke slowly (especially for Kennedy!) 3/3 - a repeat of #1, handled a bit more professionally than #1.
This is just YET ANOTHER American thing. On the rest of the planet, the ATC already knows who you are, and what you're doing because you've been 'handed over' by the previous controller and they know about you. It would be a sign that something has gone wrong if they'd never heard of you or had no idea what you're doing, and stating your intentions when you're clearly on the ILS to land is just the pinnacle of redundant communication, and check in on busy frequencies is OFTEN 'callsign only'. If something was non-standard, or out of the ordinary, then sure, make sure you say it. I guess it's part of the US thing where they just plonk you an any runway that happens to be going at the time (and change their mind/plan ten times during the approach or taxi out) so they need something to jog their memory. I don't want to bash the US, but since they have a colossal volume of domestic traffic, all pretty much used to how they do things, their perception that their way is the only, and right way is reinforced 1000 times a day but it is NOT the same as the rest of the world. Naturally, everybody who is arriving tries to bend over backwards to do things their (US) way, but of course there's often a miscommunication and the differences are made clear. I know personally, the (to us) peculiarities of US ATC is briefed as a threat every single time into the US, 'non-standard phraseology' is just their way (not only a US thing to be fair, and at least they're speaking a form of English)
The non-standardized aviation English used in major cities representing the United States influences air traffic control English in many other countries. This contradicts the FAA’s aviation manuals, and I believe the FAA, which is responsible for overseeing aviation safety, also bears responsibility for this. If each country fails to adhere to standardized aviation English phraseology, English-speaking pilots will also face difficulties due to locally non-standardized English. This will make flight safety even more challenging. If someone uses non-standard aviation English just because they are busy or want to showcase their proficiency, I would suggest they visit London Heathrow Airport. In my experience, even a decade ago, it was an extremely busy airport, often operating near minimums when granting landing clearances. I would also recommend visiting Sydney Airport in Australia. Despite most arriving flights coming from non-English-speaking countries in Asia, Sydney’s air traffic controllers handle operations with ample respect and patience. While I do not entirely dismiss the harsh working conditions in cities like New York, ultimately, your purpose is safety-to collaborate with pilots to protect the lives of passengers. I hope you recognize this responsibility with greater accountability.
On the first entry with JFK and BA, everyone new needs to be taught, but why do it in such a, "See You Next Tuesday" -y manner? Maybe she wants to be the new, "Kennedy Steve". LOL
I don't get why that Nippon was so bullied, counting the offences like he's on parole or something. Isn't it better to ask 5 times to make sure you understand than pretending it's fine and risking an incident?
“Hello” to whom? BA was not the only aircraft in the airspace. So, how were they supposed to know that the controller was calling them when she just said hello? I applaud the patience of the BA crew. If I were the pilot, I would have said something. That was completely unprofessional.
That's pretty childish of the controllers. Right or wrong, even as a student pilot VFR soloing a Cessna 182 I would initially check into Charlie or Bravo with the callsign only, particularly if ATC sounded very busy. Didn't want to talk their ears off with a request until they signalled that they're ready for it. Never had a problem with that. I'd say "X Approach, N-WHATEVER" and they'd respond with "N-WHATEVER, X Approach [say request]". Never once had a controller make an issue out of it. As a matter of fact, I'd claim that most controllers were extremely helpful, especially when adding "Student Pilot" to the initial call like "N-Whatever, Cessna 182, VFR, Student Pilot, [request]".
RT in the USA is painfully poor. Controllers think they are too much when the reality is that most of them clearly lack professionalism. London control has so much to teach them.
Calling in with just the call sign is actually proper procedure in most settings. There's no point in transmitting more if the controller is busy and not listening yet! But "Mericans often have their own way to shorten procedures. Controllers are just wasting more time by responding the way thiey did in these examples. IF they have a unique procedures - then PUBLISH them in the charts.
JFK ATC would benefit from having a field trip to other busy airports in the world… They would see how trafic can be managed politely, smoothly and efficiently. Without being an ass…
The tower controller is being an ass. He knows exactly what these inbound aircraft are doing before they call him. Nippon Cargo on the ground is a Saturday Night Live skit.
How the hell has that controller still got a job?! Struggling to find a single "hello" anywhere in the ICAO Phraseology Reference Guide, or in fact anything else she says to anyone in the exchanges. That and and the complete lack of professionlism.
Woww.....shocking RT. I was taught, specifically, to do what the BA flight did to prevent the "With you" phrase ("They know you're with them, that's why you're on frequency"). She can either acknowledge them, or ask them to pass a message
As per usual, Kennedy thinking they are the only airport in the world that does it right. These crew fly into busy airfields all around the world who have different expectations and procedures, not always easy to remember. The norm at such busy airports is to check in call sign only. I'm just happy to remember where I'm about to land after such a long flight. Get over yourselves Kennedy, so unprofessional.
Can someone explain what is the problem? Did the Tower controller not get a handover from the Approach controller? It's like it's a total shock that this IFR flight plan is suddenly appearing 6 miles away.
Hello, friends. What do you think about this format of the video? Would you like to watch such videos in future? I will continue to post emergencies as well.
I like both 👍🏼
Really enjoyed this one!
yes this was great!
Recommend listening to enroute controllers, zero ICAO verbiage in the USA. "Ooooohhhhhh" is not a number, "ZERO" is. Twelve point five is not an altitude. I'd love to see a segment on proper radio phraseology, everybody has forgotten. Good luck finding anybody who does it right.
Please...🙏🏼
I'm a London TMA controller, if an aircraft checks in callsign only when they shouldn't I simply respond with 'pass your message' - saying 'hello' back because they are 'wrong' is being a petulant child.
Well said. London TMA is a beacon of good practice.
This.
Fully agreed 👍🏻
UK ATC is top class. Airline pilot myself.
Best ATC in this” little”world of aviation….👏🏼
at busy airports like LHR you only say the callsing when you check in, and in the States apparently you are expected to say the runway also. I understand both parts here, however the ATC only saying “hello”, knowing what she was doing, is just dumb. making an issue where there is none.
This was intentionally aggravating on ATC's part and is not particularly helpful. This makes it sound like Speedbird popped up unexpectedly on the D-BRITE and the local controller doesn't have a strip in front of them telling them exactly what is going on. This from the tower that cleared four airplanes to cross an active runway with a takeoff clearance. Don't act like your $#!+ don't stink KJFK - we ain't buying it.
Agree. "Hello" is so unhelpful. Many approach controllers will say "when established call Tower on 1xx.xx, callsign only." In this case, we don't know what the approach controller said.
@@ColorNerdChris Must be NY... "teach pilots a lesson" by choosing responses that are guaranteed to waste time on frequency, instead of just "Speedbird 15K, I need your intentions" or, you know, anything. But nah, let the aircraft think it has a radio failure and cause an unnecessary distraction on the flight deck on approach as well as a whole stack of unnecessary calls.
Yeah, ATC here - no reason for attitude.
“Hello” is most definitely unhelpful. What do the other aircraft make of that transmission?
To be honest as a British pilot I’m not taking any lessons in RT from America. The standard of RT in the states is generally shockingly low.
And the controlling, too. Clearing multiple aircraft to land is really a bad procedure and does not guarantee a sterile runway. These NYC controllers are poor quality, listen to LHR controllers dealing with radio calls from foreign aircraft, trying to smooth their journeys and keep traffic flowing easily, no snarky comments, just professional ATC in action, 24x7, 365.
@@jamesgraham7297there’s nothing inherently wrong with clearing multiple aircraft to land. It’s up to the controller to ensure that the runway is clear for each aircraft. Poor procedure is issuing line up and wait to departure aircraft behind aircraft on the approach.
@@keith7003 the rest of the world prefers to clear one aircraft at a time. Clear to land means precisely that, except for in the US.
@@keith7003 It is very wrong to do so. In america controllers typically "clear to land" a plane even if they're 4th on final and there's 3 planes infront of them. This is not only dangerous but also doesn't make sense? Because the runway is obviously not clear. The rest of the world would normally say "hello, number 1,2,3,4 continue approach" until its CLEAR.
From all indications, JFK Controllers are recruited from the Hertz Car Rental Return.
Just saying 'Hello' as a response is, in itself, not very helpful. How is the BA crew supposed to know that's directed at them? Really childish and petulant on the part of ATC. How to make an issue out of absolutely nothing.
How many years has BA operated in and out of JFK? 47 years maybe? BA pilots and operations know the US TERPS procedures inside out, no excuses, the pilot should have known better. Yes the controllers were snarky and rude but what do you expect? It's New York, ALL NYers are rude to foreigners.
100%. If I was that controllers supervisor, she’d be immediately relieved of her duties for some ‘retraining’. But knowing JFK, the irony is her peers probably praised her attitude instead of questioning it. Her petulance was completely unnecessary, and unprofessional.
Standard JFK unprofessional controllers who think the world revolves around them.
that was absolute crap behaviour. Just listen to any major airport tower freq. 90% of the planes check in to the freq like that.
そしてまた事故が起こる、と…
And thus, accidents will happen...
Interesting. LHR often specifically tells pilots to check in with "call sign only' on approach as it cuts down on unnecessary communications during busy arrivals.
I believe that is London Director, which seems to then handoff to approach controller.
Is JFK LHR?
@@36thstreethero no more than LHR is JFK, but they act a bit more professional.
@@36thstreethero”is JFK LHR?”
Pretty much, just minus the silly accents.
@@stevebalt5234Wait a minute, who are you claiming has the silly accents?
That was ridiculous and unprofessional on the part of the controller in the British Airways situation. She was playing games like an immature middle-schooler. She could have simply said, "confirm intentions" and they would have said ILS 4L.
I thought the same thing. Rubbing someone’s nose in their mistake never achieves anything positive.
I was thinking hey were going to think they had radio issues. Immature controller
Typical AmeriMut behavior.
@@MsFLYBOY05 typical new yorker behaviour....
ATC SHOULD already have ALL the aircraft data on screen. Just being lazy.
Nippon Cargo is a great example of proper threat and error management.
Agreed! Sadly, in this case, one of the big threats is the controller's attitude! Not good.
Has me missing Kennedy Steve!
"Tower?"
"Plane?"
I miss his longstanding feud with the supertugs.
@@GWNorth-db8vn "I don't want to talk to you" "I don't want to talk to you either" "Ok you count as a plane with people on it"
I did like this format! It was cool to get to see and review some similar situations altogether. Thanks for doing that.
Thank you 👍
Do JFK have an aversion to hiring professional controllers?
NY has an aversion to hiring professional anything.
I do kinda like the asshole controller in example 3 though 😂. Classic east coast vibes with a touch of condescending passive aggression.
Professional assholes.
@@frankfurter7260They can push tin but they can’t manage to drop the attitude. You notice how everyone is put off by their petulant responses? It’s because they’re not used to dealing with combative attitudes in a professional setting. Speak to people like adults.
@@frankfurter7260living on the achievements of the past, slowly falling on hard times, decrepit infrastructure, failing schools, etc
In fact every controller in these scenarios is being an idiot and are totally unprofessional. They all know where the planes checking in are and are simply on a power trip.
Let’s hope pilots start picking up ATC every time they err - it’s about time these idiots at JFK start respecting their aviation colleagues rather than seeking to belittle them at every opportunity.
Sad indictment of JFK.
Agreed. Especially the taxi instructions to Nippon. The pilots are working their way around a complex airport, with an aircraft that has many restrictions as to which taxiways are suitable - in a language not their own, and this jerk controller makes it worse by refusing to speak more slowly and clearly! Some of these controllers seem to need a 'day off' to cool down.
These controllers need to be fired. I understand their frustration, but that doesn't give license to be an Asshole. This is not cool.
2 wrongs don't make a Right.
Well not the last one, he asked how he could help
The controller is only working a single runway and it's solely for arrivals. Where else is the aircraft calling going to be other than on approach to that runway? It will also already be on their strips and the radar screen. Unless I'm missing something it just seems like a silly ego play.
I like that they do it this way because it is another chance to catch any mistakes the pilots may be making. Its not unheard of for pilots to accedentally make an approach into a parallel runway
No, it’s a microcosm of drift on the pilot’s side of the mic. Just check in correctly, because we are tired of correcting you all the time. And remember, if you screw up on the frequency, it’s OUR fault.
I can understand that. Do it with a phone call to Tower after landing, not by picking a fight on frequency.
@@A80traconThere is no drift from the pilot side. The problem is the standardization of radiotelephony between EASA, CAA and FAA. Over London, you give the call sign only and this is also precised by Approach before to be released to the tower. That is a BA Aircraft, they are used to that. If JFK wants something different, they can precise it in their gen charts as do many different airport. But the lady controlling just one runway doesn't “teach” at the right moment and does not even have to teach. Her role is to control. That is all.
@@A80tracon These are correct 'check in' protocols at many places in the world. If "y'all" want something different - publish it on the approach charts - or be professional and simply reply properly without the sarcasm and blah blah.
1) The answer is not Hello, is Go Ahead. That's what the BA was waiting to hear.
In Europe in busy airports normally you say your callsign only to keep the frequency available and let the controller organise the queue. Anyways, very unprofessional way to handle the radios by ATC
Yeah that’s in Europe. Last I checked, JFK is in American, on a completely different continent.
@JimMacintosh Thank you for pointing out the obvious
Could have been worse and just got “meow” instead.
@@JimMacintosh So you are not allowed to give examples how situations like these are handled in other parts of the world, because "JFK is in American"?
@@JimMacintosh ur a spastic
that sigh came directly from the bottom of her soul
At the time you're reading this, Nippon Cargo 159 is still figuring out where to taxi
😂
I didn't hear it that way. What I heard was the captain of a very wide jet trying to work out what the route will be to parking. It sounded to me that he didn't want to accept taxi instructions until he understood that he would not wind up stuck somewhere.
but he'll be doing it with impeccable manners throughout.
instructions unclear, stuck on top of the tower
@@castletown999 Yep... I feel like the Japanese pilots were always the ones who had no choice but to compromise with ATC in the US. They often have a language barrier with their accent; hopefully, more US ATCs can understand that and be nicer.
Regarding the first one, British pilots are used to speak with limited info on the radio. This is because at busy airports like LHR, LGW and NYC, the radio must be kept open for othr traffic too.
I'm not a pilot, not even that close. Just a aviation entusiastic. One of the things that I can take from this video is the fantastic pilots professionalism on the 3 situations. Congrats to them. To the controllers, I only have to say, "You have an considerable amount of lack of humility.".
“Oh you just said your callsign, I didn’t know!” But then knew exactly where he was and that he was 4.5 miles behind the heavy. Sounds like he knew full well who he was and where he was.
It's the ICAO vs FAA difference, outside the states it's normal to check in with the call sign only however it's not worth making a big deal out of nothing with those 2 guys who probably have been flying for maybe the last 11 hours crossing multiple time zones.
Afa, Nippon cargo, they did the right thing. 748 and 380 are severely restricted on many taxiways and probably if in doubt it's better to ask than to assume and end up in soup. Good job Nippon cargo crew.
I checked the charts for JFK and at this moment, there’s nothing restricting those taxiways for B748 aircraft but a NOTAM could have changed that. ATC is usually aware of those restrictions however and he did state that he had a plan but culture and language barriers make that difficult to convey
@JD_SoarZ Indeed, but companies have additional restrictions at a certain airports and are usually more restrictive than notams, I fly for a ME Major and we see it all the time.
I like how, with the first interacation, you can exactly fill in what either side was thinking or saying off frequency...
Female 1.FO, checking in: "tower, hello, speedbird 15K heavy"
tower: bah, "hello!?". Girl, are you kidding me? Let's teach you some phraseology today. I'll just ignore you for now. Let's see if you learn.
1.FO: "tower, hello, speedbird 15K heavy"
tower: "hello? ... hello?". Hehehe, girl, you didn't learn yet. Gotcha!
Captain: hmm, do we have a radio or mike fault? Taking over: "tower, 15K, are you receiving me?"
...
Tower: "... Speedbird 15K, rwy 4R, cleared to land."
Long pause. Meanwhile, off frequency, inside the cockpit:
1.FO: "I don't believe it! She's such an id**t!!!"
Captain: "Yep. Just ignore it. Remain professional, we're British..."
1.FO: *click* long long and deep sigh on frequency, "rwy 4R, cleared to land, speedbird 15K heavy"
...
Definitely!
Main thing wrong here is the FAA is behind the rest of the ICAO world where checking in on tower frequency is usually dictated as callsign only. It’s not 1950s anymore, most towers have a RADAR and know exactly where the arrival is, so the position information is superfluous.
Well, while that may be true, the need to state your type of approach and distance sometimes comes down to airport layout. If you have an aircraft executing an ILS approach, then anyone needing to depart from the same runway (taking distance into consideration) will have to hold outside of of the scope of the glideslope beam, and needs to be instructed accordingly.
@ that’s on the SMC/TWR to implement not pilots unless it was a CTAF
I call bullshit that “they don’t know” or are not expecting the aircraft. Very specific flight data is exchanged between the tower and control center. They are 100% expecting these aircraft for a specific runway at specific times. This is just petty.
I Agree with you, the controller knows that they are on final, ¿bullying?
Ego>Professionalism
The "Hello!" really got me. 😅 The controllers at JFK are already short on patience/ Keying up sounding like Biff from Back to the Future yelling Hello is surely not going to help the pilot make any friends. Next time I am at my small local I fly out of, I am going to ask them how they would respond to that. I know one of them would probably tell me that pilot will end up in a holding pattern for a time out. LOL!!
It's interesting to note that in the UK at the London control centre the biggest problem that controllers have with language issues is with American pilots. Who apparently speak the same language.
Thank god for CPDLC.
That's computerised messaging for those that don't know and helps reduce voice comms. It gives controllers more thinking time as well.
Exactly. 100%
And the some Americans like to slag British R/T when some American controllers spit instructions like they're entering a speed rapping contest.
So true… some of the worst R/T out there!
Speedbird contacted the tower with their Call sign, the Controller responds with 'Hello' like she's answering a telephone call. Hello isn't official phraseology and she could've been saying hello to anyone on the frequency. Then she tries to be cute with Speedbird for not responding to her 'hello'. So uncool, so unprofessional.
Love it. All pilots and controllers know they are supposed to check in with their position; the JFK controllers are very busy and don't have time for pilots who don't follow the rules of communication. They get tired of it and are trying to coax the pilots to communicate more efficiently.
Agree that simply responding "hello" is a waste of time. A simple "say position when you check in" would be a better way of doing business.
That very sharp intake of breath from the female pilot of BAW15K was classic. I feel like Americans maybe wouldn't get it but she was pissed
Speedbird 15K is obviously trying to talk to you. How about rather than playing games with them, help them out and lighten their workload.
Absolutely apalling from JFK ATC on the first one. They knew where the BA was and created a situation that wasn’t needed.
JFK ATC generally is an utter disgrace these days. Entitled and rude.
That’s why JFK is known as Lagos West by many European crews. You wouldnt employ these fools in McDonald’s. Been in the Flightdeck many times into JFK in my past life. Dangerous, appallingly unaware in regard to our aircraft types operate and as said entitled. Not the brightest bunch.
Welcome to New York City.
After watching this lesson on proper identity and reading comments below makes me happy I am retired. I will however say this. When checking in to any ATC controller for the first time and using their ID only certainly isn't how I learned to do it. Perhaps I'm different, I always liked having a mental picture of where I was in relationship to other A/C on approach, departure and so on. The controllers response may seem childish, but he or she made their point clear.
Ah yes. New York. The friendliest airspace known to man
SFO?
Chicago takes some beating
Controller then clears the BA to land without reporting the wind... Brilliant.
Issuing the wind isn’t required unless there’s a tailwind component but most controllers issue it regardless
It's funny because a lot of times people defend the JFK ATC for being an extremely busy and demanding airspace, yet the controllers often seem to have quite a lot of time for these stupid games. Also, ATC in the US complaining about phraseology and procedures is ironic when they themselves use a lot of non-standard expressions that are explicitly taught to be avoided, like "to" 🙃.
And "roll the trucks"...another Hollywood-inspired one, maybe.
Little background from european APP/ACC ATCo here: Firstly - tower controllers at large busy airports like JFK always have radar and can see where the aircraft is, its callsign, altitude and direction.
Secondly - as far as IFR, controlled traffic is concerned, they ALWAYS have flight plan of the flight and estimated time of entry into their airspace. They know when the aircraft will come and that they are supposed to land! ATCo has all the information he needs!
So their behaviour is just unproffesional and ridicolous, its like they don't realise at all they are there to serve, not to annoy and bully the pilots.
Yes please do more airport radio calls it’s soo awesome to learn
Although not necessarily depicted above, the airwaves can get terribly busy and its hard to get a word in sometimes. Checking in with the above short rt message helps to bring your aircraft into the forefront of ATC's minds, as well as decluttering the frequencies.
Tower controller giving attitude in one of the most critical phases of flight is ridiculous, and only causes more confusion. If she had something to say, she could've said something after they had landed and were on the taxiway.
I don’t see what the BA crew did wrong here. It’s common practice to check in on a new frequency along the lines of JFK Tower Speedbird 15K Heavy. The response from tower should have been “Speedbird 15K Heavy, pass your message” after which they would have said “Speedbird 15K Heavy established on the ILS for 04R”
NON-STANDARD ATC instructions is a problem that will not end well.
As a controller for decades including a major international airport, I have to say these were uncalled for. However I do understand the frustration with Nippon Cargo.
the power trips are real in this one
The controller is just used to being a rude prick . Also he's a smart arse .
As someone who recently started flying to Europe, where at LHR, for example, you may be instructed checkin call sign only, I can see how these landing pilots would do this. We’re still using a system from 1970, whereas the rest of the world seems to be so much farther along…they know where you are and what you’re doing. These controllers were just being snarky and I dare say, a bit unprofessional.
yes, funny, more
That's just the tower being high on their ego.
Pilots: Kennedy Tower, hello, Speedbird 15K.
ATC: Speedbird 15K, Kennedy Tower, hello. Say intention (or Speedbird 15K, Kennedy Tower, Hello, go ahead")
Good format 👍🏼👍🏼
New York state of mind, and attitude.
Sounds like a smart ass culture there in Kennedy tower. That type of thing starts at the top spreads downward.... must have a supervisor there that has issues.
this is fun would watch more of this from time to time
Hello?
I feel sorry for the Japanese pilots; their thick accents and the controllers' petulance weren't a good combination. I wish the controllers had more patience and cut the foreign pilots a little slack. Sometimes it's a pilots first time at an airport and they've got no clue where to go. Impatient controllers add more tension to an already tense situation.
Doesn’t matter. They have no business flying then. You listen to the controller and repeat back. They can’t even understand that part. Either brush up your English or leave the flight deck
I don't feel sorry for them. His English was obviously good enough to repeat the instructions 4 times. He just didn't know what he was doing.
@@zj725 They understood just fine - they were trying to make sure their huge wingspan was in the clear. What's wrong with that?
@ no they were confused as hell on where to go. It’s called listening
Welcome to New York, folks
JFK controllers and their famous charm 😂
They sound like utter Charlie Uniform November Tangos.
You have to understand that NYC airports, including KEWR, is a very busy area and just imagine the controllers driving or using public transportation just to get to work is a huge pain in the arse. It's very stressful in NYC, so I honestly dont blame them. They try to do their best.
Since you asked, yes I like this format. Kennedy is hilarious.
They should have replied with,
“Kennedy Tower, HELLO . Speedbird, which is the callsign for British Airways, wun fife keeelo heavy, two tousand feet on QNH - or altimeter as you call it - 1332, showing 10 nautical miles to run to the threshold of zero fower right. We are anticipating landing on that runway, fully expect you know that too. What would you like us to do next ma’am or sir?”
You are not a pilot, are you? QNH is not 'altimeter' it is nautical height, as opposed to QFE which is 'field elevation'. Both are read using an altimeter. Why is it necessary to quote altitude and DME in a controlled environment? This verbose compost would block a busy frequency. It should go 'Speedbird 15 heavy with Kilo', 'Pass your message' 'Speedbird 15 heavy established 04R.
All these controllers probably got pressure form their SUPs to put an end to non-standard phraseology…. Which they’re often also guilty of.
Putting an end to non standard phraseology by using non standard phraseology is wild. All these airports in the world with international traffic, and yet the problem always seems to be at JFK. Hmm...
I fly there and hate it. They're both great and terrible at their job at the same time.
No, the problem is ATC at JFK. They think they're God's gift to aviation and only the way they do things, is how it should be. When, in fact, in pretty much everywhere else in the world is not how they do things. Like checking on with tower with a call sign. Everywhere else, it's actually standard when checking on, to just call up with a call sign. They know exactly where you are, and what you're doing.
Who would have more experience?? A controller who only ever has seen JFK? Or an international heavy pilot, flying all over the world, to hundreds of different airports.
Between JFK/LGA/EWR these guys move traffic like no where else. And pushing for standard phraseology should be no brainer, checking in with a ‘Hello’ this isn’t LHR.
@@777doove which moves more traffic, NYC or LON? (NYC has three main airports, LGA, EWR and JFK - LON has six LTN, STN, SEN, LCY, , LGW and LHR).
I would love for the first controller in this video to operate in a busy London TMA environment. How are those 4 aircraft on frequency doing for you, already separated. Fantastic money earned there, what a waste of cash.
Callsign calls on frequency, first response is "C/S, station ident, pass your message" none of this childish crap. This video attempted to show "controllers teaching pilots how to use radio" when in actual fact all it has done is shine more light on the unprofessionalism at JFK headed by undeserving entitlement. I think I speak for the majority of the aviation industry here in that, we loathe you - get better.
lol, this is great stuff
1/3 - appropriate for controller to respond the way she did - BA Heavy never gave any indication of where they were headed until the other pilot finally did.
2/3 - Again, the controller on the NCA was very clear and spoke slowly (especially for Kennedy!)
3/3 - a repeat of #1, handled a bit more professionally than #1.
Still the same guy. Super star of youtube !
It drives me insane how non standard phraseology is just accepted as the norm in the USA these days.
This is just YET ANOTHER American thing. On the rest of the planet, the ATC already knows who you are, and what you're doing because you've been 'handed over' by the previous controller and they know about you. It would be a sign that something has gone wrong if they'd never heard of you or had no idea what you're doing, and stating your intentions when you're clearly on the ILS to land is just the pinnacle of redundant communication, and check in on busy frequencies is OFTEN 'callsign only'. If something was non-standard, or out of the ordinary, then sure, make sure you say it. I guess it's part of the US thing where they just plonk you an any runway that happens to be going at the time (and change their mind/plan ten times during the approach or taxi out) so they need something to jog their memory.
I don't want to bash the US, but since they have a colossal volume of domestic traffic, all pretty much used to how they do things, their perception that their way is the only, and right way is reinforced 1000 times a day but it is NOT the same as the rest of the world. Naturally, everybody who is arriving tries to bend over backwards to do things their (US) way, but of course there's often a miscommunication and the differences are made clear. I know personally, the (to us) peculiarities of US ATC is briefed as a threat every single time into the US, 'non-standard phraseology' is just their way (not only a US thing to be fair, and at least they're speaking a form of English)
The non-standardized aviation English used in major cities representing the United States influences air traffic control English in many other countries. This contradicts the FAA’s aviation manuals, and I believe the FAA, which is responsible for overseeing aviation safety, also bears responsibility for this.
If each country fails to adhere to standardized aviation English phraseology, English-speaking pilots will also face difficulties due to locally non-standardized English. This will make flight safety even more challenging.
If someone uses non-standard aviation English just because they are busy or want to showcase their proficiency, I would suggest they visit London Heathrow Airport. In my experience, even a decade ago, it was an extremely busy airport, often operating near minimums when granting landing clearances. I would also recommend visiting Sydney Airport in Australia. Despite most arriving flights coming from non-English-speaking countries in Asia, Sydney’s air traffic controllers handle operations with ample respect and patience.
While I do not entirely dismiss the harsh working conditions in cities like New York, ultimately, your purpose is safety-to collaborate with pilots to protect the lives of passengers. I hope you recognize this responsibility with greater accountability.
On the first entry with JFK and BA, everyone new needs to be taught, but why do it in such a, "See You Next Tuesday" -y manner? Maybe she wants to be the new, "Kennedy Steve". LOL
Guess i'll have to revert back to saying "heading" when ATC says "say heading"
That'll teach em :D
I don't get why that Nippon was so bullied, counting the offences like he's on parole or something. Isn't it better to ask 5 times to make sure you understand than pretending it's fine and risking an incident?
Well there you go. Contacting tower with call sign only is standard practice from where I hail. 😂
“Hello” to whom? BA was not the only aircraft in the airspace. So, how were they supposed to know that the controller was calling them when she just said hello? I applaud the patience of the BA crew. If I were the pilot, I would have said something. That was completely unprofessional.
JFK need to brush up on their SOP's, they're stuck in the 1970's.
The font of information that ATC immediately spews the moment the calls comply with protocol illustrate the corrective nature of these rituals.
A lesson in how to make an already busy job more difficult. Generating tension when calmness should prevail. Interesting idea!
Ego has no place in aviation. This controller needs to get off her high horse before she causes an accident.
JFK ATC unprofessional as usual!
rumor has it the Japan Cargo is still tryna to get out of cargo apron lol 😁
That's pretty childish of the controllers. Right or wrong, even as a student pilot VFR soloing a Cessna 182 I would initially check into Charlie or Bravo with the callsign only, particularly if ATC sounded very busy. Didn't want to talk their ears off with a request until they signalled that they're ready for it. Never had a problem with that. I'd say "X Approach, N-WHATEVER" and they'd respond with "N-WHATEVER, X Approach [say request]". Never once had a controller make an issue out of it. As a matter of fact, I'd claim that most controllers were extremely helpful, especially when adding "Student Pilot" to the initial call like "N-Whatever, Cessna 182, VFR, Student Pilot, [request]".
RT in the USA is painfully poor. Controllers think they are too much when the reality is that most of them clearly lack professionalism. London control has so much to teach them.
Calling in with just the call sign is actually proper procedure in most settings. There's no point in transmitting more if the controller is busy and not listening yet! But "Mericans often have their own way to shorten procedures. Controllers are just wasting more time by responding the way thiey did in these examples. IF they have a unique procedures - then PUBLISH them in the charts.
JFK ATC would benefit from having a field trip to other busy airports in the world… They would see how trafic can be managed politely, smoothly and efficiently. Without being an ass…
This is great!
Love your Channel!
Love your Channel!
@@BenjyCohen Thanks!
A New York Controller being snarky and unprofessional? It must be a Monday. Or a Tuesday. Or a...well, you get the idea.
The text format is much better. Especially when you zoom for widescreen.
Thank you 👍
The tower controller is being an ass. He knows exactly what these inbound aircraft are doing before they call him.
Nippon Cargo on the ground is a Saturday Night Live skit.
How the hell has that controller still got a job?!
Struggling to find a single "hello" anywhere in the ICAO Phraseology Reference Guide, or in fact anything else she says to anyone in the exchanges. That and and the complete lack of professionlism.
"Hello. Is it me you're looking for?"
Lionel Ritchie on JFK Tower
Isn't the approach the plane is doing on the radar data tag?
Didn’t realize JFK tower controllers were a bunch of unprofessional passive aggressive Karens!
ATC “I didn’t know.”
Um, it’s on the screen
Woww.....shocking RT. I was taught, specifically, to do what the BA flight did to prevent the "With you" phrase ("They know you're with them, that's why you're on frequency"). She can either acknowledge them, or ask them to pass a message
Ironic coming from the US where the quality of radio calls has to be the worst in the world.
The first video already made me mad... the arrogance of most of the controllers at JFK is unbearable... I really HATE flying there...
it's quite common in europe that you first call the tower on approach with your callsigh only and then report established etc.
What the actual f*ck? I would have called that tower and given the supervisor an ear full for how this controller was talking at 1:33.
As per usual, Kennedy thinking they are the only airport in the world that does it right. These crew fly into busy airfields all around the world who have different expectations and procedures, not always easy to remember. The norm at such busy airports is to check in call sign only. I'm just happy to remember where I'm about to land after such a long flight. Get over yourselves Kennedy, so unprofessional.
Can someone explain what is the problem? Did the Tower controller not get a handover from the Approach controller? It's like it's a total shock that this IFR flight plan is suddenly appearing 6 miles away.
Controllers at JFK need to come down to earth(literally) and remember why they are there.
Some NY controller don’t deserve to work in an international environment, it feels like you are at DMV queue
What you are not hearing is director or approach control are handing off the aircraft to change frequency to tower & check in with call sign only.
Again, the wonderful services providers at JFK going at it.
The Speedbird should have squawked 7600.