I am an American and I can tell you from the bottom of my heart, there has NEVER been a better sounding engine than the early 90's Ferrari 412's... PERIOD. And i am talking ALL forms of racing.
I look at the body-language of the car, and the body-language of the driver. The arse of the car is all over the place. The jet-black slicks look like a *real* racing car. The sound, the speed, the danger, and unfortunately sometimes, the tragedy. No-one likes seeing someone get hurt. But seriously folks, back then, that was real racing. V12's screaming their lungs out. Sheer bliss.
Yep - Gerhard was World Champ material all right. And I know he gave it his all - watched him win in ridiculous heat in Adelaide. They say motor racing is 5 parts machine, 5 parts skill, and 10 parts luck. Berger never had the best of luck at times, but had big balls and was blindingly quick on his day. An honest racer and mates with Ayrton, we was always the joker in the pack that no-one could discount. Many times he surprised Nelson, Nigel, Alain and of course Ayrton himself. F1 needs Bergers.
Indeed. The two single most convincing facts something is very suspicious in Senna's accident is 1) The erased footage of the last 1.1 seconds of the onboard camera prior to the impact. 2 ) The way the front left wheel snaps inward just moment before impact. Nobody has ever given convincing explanation about those 2 things.
Specialist told that the Ferrari 412T developed 825HP at 16200rpm, with 3500ccm at Hockenheim... Ferrati 412T2 developed in the same GP one year later 723HP at 17200rpm, this with 3000ccm
No disrespect but he prepared himself tremendously when he got the chance to drive for McLaren in 1990. Senna went on vacation. Despite all his efforts Senna made easy work of Berger and that gutted him. Ron Dennis told him be content you're the third best driver in the world. 1987 really was his best season and he loved the Ferrari too.
That is a possibility, but you're forgetting the tv camera had great zoom and any small angle would seem enlarged. Just look how sharp the corner itself appears while in reality it was a vague curve. And I don't know where you read this, but Senna's hands were in his lap. The steering wheel was not even in the cockpit after the crash. You can see it's not there from the helicopter footage. Anyway, I hope one day someone will reveal the whole truth that is being kept secret so well atm.
What's more suspicious is although team personnel was forbidden (legally) to collect the black boxes they enforced their way with the aid of a FIA representitive and got them regardless. Also I believe I read somwhere there were other parts picked up from the scene of the accident without permission.
If I can give my opinion, let's bring back 'racecraft'. Slick tyres - huge ones. Front and rear aerofoils - sure. But flat. Dead flat. 10, maybe 20 degrees max angle of attack. No gurney flaps, barge-boards or bits attached to anything else. Stick-shift with a clutch. H-pattern if the need be. Piss-off sequential shifts, and speed-shifting. You want to change up? Clutch and gas pedal. Down-shift? Heal-and-toe. Stuff it up, and you lunch an engine. Like it used to be. Man and machine. RACING....
Yeah, I had the same opinion about the black box, but after finding some more info recently I'm not so sure. It appears that although the blackbox was intact visually the plugs that connect it to the car had made contact with some of the chassis material or something else during the impact (the blackbox got detached and moved a bit) and it short-circuited thus destroying all data. The way the information was presented and backed up by various people sounded plausable to me.
These things used to be 'thorougbreds'. Now they are just fast computer gadgets. Let the best driver win, not the best electronics. Keep the carbon monocoque and all the circuit safety, but let them race as men once again. Where balls, brawn, skill, and horsepower wins. Not some silicon chip. F1 is the ultimate. Let's hand it back to those that are ultimately brilliant at their craft. Let's see the Senna's, Mansell's, Prost's, Piquet's & Schumi's of today duke it out on the track. Bring it on.
Not so. When the car bounces off the wall, the wheel is at exactly that position. And since it's the front left wheel, it's not the impact that caused it. Plus I have photos taken from high frame rate footage that they used in the court room, which captures 2 frames in which it can be seen clearly that the front left snapped to the inside a few meters before the impact. Nobody ever managed to explain (or reveal) the cause.
It's not at exactly that position - the illusion shows the wheel is turned almost horizontally, way beyond its steering lock. The impact and internal connection to the right front would have caused the left front to turn. Senna's hands after the crash were on the wheel turning left - indicating that there was no impact feedback through the column.
Bottoming wasn't the cause, please. His steering column snapped and he couldn't steer anymore. Bottoming never causes a car to go totally straight for such big distance and nobody would react to bottoming the way Senna did prior to the collision - stepping on the brakes, changing gears down and just waiting for the impact. Cars of that and previous years were bottoming ALL the time, it's not something that would cause a big accident like that.
I uploaded Senna's qualifying laps on Friday in 2 parts and also Barrichello's accident. Saturday i didn't have as i did my taperecorder at that time setting up to record it for 1h and 15mins, but it showed almost all the time Ratzenbergers accident including everything around it.
I would second that. V-12 were on the way out in 1991 after Williams had the superior car with the V-10. The only salvation of a V-12 in racing is to make a diesel, but 6,000 RPM is not 17,400 RPM.
4,500 gear shifts in a single Monaco Grand Prix. Screw just one of them up, and the guy behind passes you. No engine management, so if you wheelie too much out of the corners all the time, your tyres are shot. No power steering, so your bloody arms ache like hell. Let them have heaps of horsepower, but less assistance. Maybe even lose the carbon-fibre brakes. That way you'd have to manage your corner entry more. And please oh please bring back the titanium skid-plates. Sparks & flames are good..
i don't think they will come back, in 2011 or 2012 they will have new motors, energy-saving motors and nobody yet knows what fuel they will have or what kind of motors this will be. But i think, this sound will be gone for ever :-(
Well, Johnnytr, I give a shit what you think. And so do lots of others I bet... And the more people that do, the more chance there is of bringing some sense back into what real racing is all about. They had to slow the things down a tad I guess, because they'd be doing 400 by now if they hadn't - and there's no track that would be safe at that speed. There's balls and guts, and there's sheer stupidity. It's still good, but it could be even better. You and me mate - the new Bernie and Max? LoL.
@FerrarifanV12 Dutch, Netherlands... but what about Holland? :-) Reminds me of that Seinfeld bit - George: What is Holland? Jerry: What do you mean, ‘what is it?’ It’s a country right next to Belgium. George: No, that’s the Netherlands. Jerry: Holland *is* the Netherlands. George: Then who are the Dutch?
LoL@U. Lucky he's not a foot shorter, or he'd have a permanent fanny-print on his forehead! He's also one of the smartest bastards on Earth because: He's sold his company like 5 times, and still has control of what goes on! PS: That's an AUS fanny, not a US one.
Uhuh. But I'm still out to lunch on that. It's become soooo santized these days. And waaay too political for me. Just take a good look at this clip. The low front wing, black slicks, and almost 'slot car' appearance of the thing as it dances around the track. All the high-tech mumbo-jumbo has taken too much away. They used to be gloryfied go-karts (no disrespect). Now they are sleek SUV's. Computers for this, computers for that. My Granny could probably drive one... (to be continued...)
I am an American and I can tell you from the bottom of my heart, there has NEVER been a better sounding engine than the early 90's Ferrari 412's... PERIOD. And i am talking ALL forms of racing.
The Ferrari 412/T1: The best sounding F1 Car of all time!
Real cars,real drivers i'd rather watch a replay of a whole race from back then than one live now
This sound has to come back. The nice sound of a V12.
I look at the body-language of the car, and the body-language of the driver. The arse of the car is all over the place. The jet-black slicks look like a *real* racing car. The sound, the speed, the danger, and unfortunately sometimes, the tragedy. No-one likes seeing someone get hurt. But seriously folks, back then, that was real racing. V12's screaming their lungs out. Sheer bliss.
Yep - Gerhard was World Champ material all right. And I know he gave it his all - watched him win in ridiculous heat in Adelaide. They say motor racing is 5 parts machine, 5 parts skill, and 10 parts luck. Berger never had the best of luck at times, but had big balls and was blindingly quick on his day. An honest racer and mates with Ayrton, we was always the joker in the pack that no-one could discount. Many times he surprised Nelson, Nigel, Alain and of course Ayrton himself. F1 needs Bergers.
Thanks to you one hundred times :-)
Indeed. The two single most convincing facts something is very suspicious in Senna's accident is 1) The erased footage of the last 1.1 seconds of the onboard camera prior to the impact. 2 ) The way the front left wheel snaps inward just moment before impact.
Nobody has ever given convincing explanation about those 2 things.
Specialist told that the Ferrari 412T developed 825HP at 16200rpm, with 3500ccm at Hockenheim... Ferrati 412T2 developed in the same GP one year later 723HP at 17200rpm, this with 3000ccm
No disrespect but he prepared himself tremendously when he got the chance to drive for McLaren in 1990. Senna went on vacation. Despite all his efforts Senna made easy work of Berger and that gutted him. Ron Dennis told him be content you're the third best driver in the world. 1987 really was his best season and he loved the Ferrari too.
To Pascali.
In fact ! This car had 800 bhp.
2:38 to 2:56...goosebumps
The left front wheel turning inwards is an optical illusion as the camera panned across.
2:37 onwards just sends goosebumps, wishing I was there to hear it in real life....:D
412 t1 screams great too but 412 t2 will be my favorite 'demonic' screamer
That is a possibility, but you're forgetting the tv camera had great zoom and any small angle would seem enlarged. Just look how sharp the corner itself appears while in reality it was a vague curve. And I don't know where you read this, but Senna's hands were in his lap. The steering wheel was not even in the cockpit after the crash. You can see it's not there from the helicopter footage. Anyway, I hope one day someone will reveal the whole truth that is being kept secret so well atm.
What's more suspicious is although team personnel was forbidden (legally) to collect the black boxes they enforced their way with the aid of a FIA representitive and got them regardless. Also I believe I read somwhere there were other parts picked up from the scene of the accident without permission.
yea, those v12's were amazing, but, last year 2007 saw some pretty good racing between mclaren and ferrari
If I can give my opinion, let's bring back 'racecraft'. Slick tyres - huge ones. Front and rear aerofoils - sure. But flat. Dead flat. 10, maybe 20 degrees max angle of attack. No gurney flaps, barge-boards or bits attached to anything else. Stick-shift with a clutch. H-pattern if the need be. Piss-off sequential shifts, and speed-shifting. You want to change up? Clutch and gas pedal. Down-shift? Heal-and-toe. Stuff it up, and you lunch an engine. Like it used to be. Man and machine. RACING....
Yeah, I had the same opinion about the black box, but after finding some more info recently I'm not so sure. It appears that although the blackbox was intact visually the plugs that connect it to the car had made contact with some of the chassis material or something else during the impact (the blackbox got detached and moved a bit) and it short-circuited thus destroying all data. The way the information was presented and backed up by various people sounded plausable to me.
These things used to be 'thorougbreds'. Now they are just fast computer gadgets. Let the best driver win, not the best electronics. Keep the carbon monocoque and all the circuit safety, but let them race as men once again. Where balls, brawn, skill, and horsepower wins. Not some silicon chip. F1 is the ultimate. Let's hand it back to those that are ultimately brilliant at their craft. Let's see the Senna's, Mansell's, Prost's, Piquet's & Schumi's of today duke it out on the track. Bring it on.
nice spitting flames @ 1:20
Not so. When the car bounces off the wall, the wheel is at exactly that position. And since it's the front left wheel, it's not the impact that caused it. Plus I have photos taken from high frame rate footage that they used in the court room, which captures 2 frames in which it can be seen clearly that the front left snapped to the inside a few meters before the impact. Nobody ever managed to explain (or reveal) the cause.
It's not at exactly that position - the illusion shows the wheel is turned almost horizontally, way beyond its steering lock. The impact and internal connection to the right front would have caused the left front to turn. Senna's hands after the crash were on the wheel turning left - indicating that there was no impact feedback through the column.
Bottoming wasn't the cause, please. His steering column snapped and he couldn't steer anymore. Bottoming never causes a car to go totally straight for such big distance and nobody would react to bottoming the way Senna did prior to the collision - stepping on the brakes, changing gears down and just waiting for the impact. Cars of that and previous years were bottoming ALL the time, it's not something that would cause a big accident like that.
I have them also from Senna. I only need to make some time free to cut them out of the qualification and upload them.
I uploaded Senna's qualifying laps on Friday in 2 parts and also Barrichello's accident. Saturday i didn't have as i did my taperecorder at that time setting up to record it for 1h and 15mins, but it showed almost all the time Ratzenbergers accident including everything around it.
I would second that. V-12 were on the way out in 1991 after Williams had the superior car with the V-10. The only salvation of a V-12 in racing is to make a diesel, but 6,000 RPM is not 17,400 RPM.
It was Dutch Eurosport, so Netherlands :-)
please, do you have the full qualifying of Friday and Saturday or at least, Senna's qualif laps.
Thanks
berger seems very conservative entering corners
Do you mean that he didn't use much kerbs? Or that his cornering angle was narrow?
Yes, this is the weekend in 1994 when we lost 2 great drivers.
Is this the practice session of the weekend that Ayrton Senna died?
4,500 gear shifts in a single Monaco Grand Prix. Screw just one of them up, and the guy behind passes you. No engine management, so if you wheelie too much out of the corners all the time, your tyres are shot. No power steering, so your bloody arms ache like hell. Let them have heaps of horsepower, but less assistance. Maybe even lose the carbon-fibre brakes. That way you'd have to manage your corner entry more. And please oh please bring back the titanium skid-plates. Sparks & flames are good..
i don't think they will come back, in 2011 or 2012 they will have new motors, energy-saving motors and nobody yet knows what fuel they will have or what kind of motors this will be. But i think, this sound will be gone for ever :-(
Well, Johnnytr, I give a shit what you think. And so do lots of others I bet... And the more people that do, the more chance there is of bringing some sense back into what real racing is all about. They had to slow the things down a tad I guess, because they'd be doing 400 by now if they hadn't - and there's no track that would be safe at that speed. There's balls and guts, and there's sheer stupidity. It's still good, but it could be even better. You and me mate - the new Bernie and Max? LoL.
@FerrarifanV12
Dutch, Netherlands... but what about Holland? :-)
Reminds me of that Seinfeld bit -
George: What is Holland?
Jerry: What do you mean, ‘what is it?’ It’s a country right next to Belgium.
George: No, that’s the Netherlands.
Jerry: Holland *is* the Netherlands.
George: Then who are the Dutch?
LoL@U. Lucky he's not a foot shorter, or he'd have a permanent fanny-print on his forehead!
He's also one of the smartest bastards on Earth because:
He's sold his company like 5 times, and still has control of what goes on!
PS: That's an AUS fanny, not a US one.
Uhuh. But I'm still out to lunch on that. It's become soooo santized these days. And waaay too political for me. Just take a good look at this clip. The low front wing, black slicks, and almost 'slot car' appearance of the thing as it dances around the track. All the high-tech mumbo-jumbo has taken too much away. They used to be gloryfied go-karts (no disrespect). Now they are sleek SUV's. Computers for this, computers for that. My Granny could probably drive one... (to be continued...)