Celtic Migrations?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- Where did the Celts start? Where did they end up? Do we really have any answers?
Check out my latest classes at this link: www.godeeper.info/classes.html
And I’d love some support on Patreon. / krishughes
Finally, here’s the link to the paper I mention in the video. www.cambridge.org/core/journa...
Contents:
0:00 Intro
1:18 Approaching different theories
3:30 Importance of up-to-date information
5:07 The Hallstatt-La Tene theory
7:40 Celto-scepticism
10:54 Celts from the west
16:51 Celts from Gaul?
17:37 Genetics vs language and culture
Really great topic to consider.
My point of view and accounting for what I studied in Pre-History the books "Celtic from the West" explain why Celts came from a mixture of local Neolithic/Chalcolithic populations of Western Atlantic European Coast with Indo-European population that traveled to those areas, in terms of archeology, Genetics and Linguistic features!
The Campaniforme or Bell Beaker Complex which started around 2900 BC in Estremadura region (Lisbon and Setúbal Peninsulas in Portugal) are one of the bases. Those people are the local Neolithic/Chalcolithic that traveled all the the way to Central and Eastern Europe, with Corded Ware Culture. By 2500 BC the Campaniforme had reached those areas, not with migrating people but with commerce and the flow of ideias. A lot of those things are derived directly from Neolihic ones - Castros, round houses which were maintained even after the Roman conquest of Iberia, the stone circles decoration wich we see even in the Viking period, neolithic/chalcolithic types of monuments and collective funarary costumes, etc - and others from the Chalcolithic - the pottery, the Palmela copper arrow and spear points, the V-shaped copper buttons, the "arco e flecha" or bow and arrow costumes and traditions, derived from late Neolithic period.
In turn, around the same age we start to see migrating people from those areas arriving in Western Europe like the British Isles and Iberia, and by 2200 BC at the start of the Bronze Age in Portugal we see a shift in several things like funerary rituals and abandonment of certain living places, most probably things derived of climate change (the 4.2kpa climate change) and conflits/war... the Bronze Age in Portugal is a very opaque Age... it seems to me that the combination of climate change and late Bronze Age migration into Iberia, still not a certainty, changed Portugal and Spain and started increasing the number of settlements in the Northern part, with less dependancy of agriculture and hunting but more of cattle hearding.
Because climate change does not occur at the same time and in the same way around the world, what happens in one region can have repercursions several thousands of kms away and several centurys later... reading "1177 AC the year civilization colapsed" wich is the start of the Iron Age, takes me into thinking that starting in the Western part of Europe, the crashing of Western Mediterranian commerce, cos of the biggest amount of copper and tin are in the western part, and the later colapse of Eastern Mediterranian reigns...
Any way, about linguistics which I am not, there are several books and studies that show the way Celtic language evolved, putting that evolution in Iberia, and we know that ancient celts or paleo-celts, even the others before them, they all used the same runes from the Alvão alphabet wich seems to be derived of the Magdalian alphabet (I think you should check this) and there are a lot, to say the least, of toponymic features in Celtic language in Iberia... at first, so if Indo-Europeans were being introduced in the ancient landscape since at least 2500 BC, they did not changed the names, they used the ones that existed... and we can see that in the Basque People with a Non Indo-European Language but with Indo-European Genetics... the language change ocurred around or after 2200 BC but maintained the common Runes... the life styles changed where the climate changed the most so did the language and cults! Not also climate change but also population growth and the ever changing of times "Mudam-se os tempos, mudam-se as vontades"...
Imagine 2200 BC, in southern Iberia, population was growing, due to commerce and copper and metals exploration in the Iberian Pyrite Belt, also with "others" that were not native, joinning the local ones, the Elites could not keep the "comprised form of maintaining the social net", which was derived from the Neolithic Period (the Castros), the cults used to do that coesition no longer could, cos of climate change, that made population seek certain places in order to sustain living conditions, those places are now the villages and citys in Iberia, conflicts start to appear, no longer people can live ouside the relative protection of bigger settlements, that leads to bigger concentrations of people and also goverments and its "concentration type"! That is the probable way to change a language... change the goverment! And that became the rule and after that, expantion... more conflicts...
By the way, Hallstad and La Ten Culture?! We can see commerce flowing from Western Iberia and the British Isles to those places longue before they were the thing, like Celtic swords, even the falcatta an Iberian Sword was most probably the ancestor of greek sword, the way they treated the Iron was very peculiar... and that commerce was not Iron Age but Bronze Age, after the mixture of Indo-Europeans with Neolithic/Chalcolithic local people of Western Europe, not Central Europe...
But why I am allways refering to Iberia... cos of its Geopolitical place in European context, check the maps, it is a pivotal point from North to Sout, from Mediterranean to Atlantic Ocean Façade, from its riches in metals like copper, to passage/acess to the British Isles, needed in Bronze Age reigns, to the amount of salt needed in Northern and Central Europe, to the amount of fish in its shores, captured since Paleolihic/Mesolithic Periods... Iberia is the original point of the Atlantic Megalithic Culture, just check the Alentejo, Alagarve and Estremadura regions in Portugal!
Absolutely fascinating! Thank you.
Thank you. I only scratched the surface. I'm trying to keep this series simple.
I'm Welsh and its strange when people say celts because my DNA can be found in Britain from ice age 10.000 years ago so are many Welsh people have same DNA. Did the celts come to Britain or Celtic ideas. Because I drive a Suzuki doesn't make me Japanese
"Did the celts come to Britain or Celtic ideas." Seems to be the question of the moment. I'll take the easy way out and say "a bit of both". However, remember that "Celtic" can also mean "Celtic-speaking" and I'm guessing that your ancestors, and possibly you, too, speak Welsh.
Yes all welsh speakers.
A williams here
Enjoyed thanks
You're welcome!
Could be possible the "Camino de Santiago" being a pilgrimage route prior to romanisation of the "celts", which later got introduced into catholic tradition, as did Halloween? Given this possibility, this would point to not only a big interaction between these "Celtic" peoples around the Cantabric Sea, but also a common culture with the North-West of Iberia as a place of religious interest for all of them.
I don't know if there is any paper that discusses these ideas!
Chapters in description.
May want to pin comment.
Here's the main problem. Dating the rise of Indo Europeans in general hinges on shared linguistic words with same meaning, such as words for wheel, axle, horse etc. The oldest wheel found (so far) is dated to 3500 BC approx. Thus its concluded the division of Indo European into over 445 branches cant be any older than that (despite first know horse domstication is thousands of years older. Just like we thought Sumeria was the oldest civ we know have Gobekli and others. Unfortunately there is an effort by ither disciplines to fit around this theory which is very outdated by 300 years. In all my studies the Celts have the most controversy. If we say something is Roman - then its Roman despite the vast majority of "Romans" were of conquered/pro-Roman peoples. Its quite laughable
I'm no linguist, but because of the name of the Hercynian Forest, I think a central European origin makes a little more sense than a western European origin, and a lot more sense than an Atlantic coastal origin.
The Latin and Greek names are borrowings from a Celtic name.
Patrick Sims-Williams suggests it could be a late name (p. 513). But aside from the Celtic name, there are also Germanic names for the same forest, which suggest an earlier common source, with Celtic losing initial p- and Germanic turning p to f and k to g. So I think it's an early name, which was in continuous use as pre-Celtic languages became Celtic ones; that makes more sense if the forest was well known to proto-Celtic speakers. D.H. Green discusses this from the Germanic side of things (Language and History in the early Germanic world, p. 159).
P.S. Greek forms including Orkynios and Arkynia for the forest, Germanic Fergunna, Virgundia for the forest, Gothic fairguni as a general term for mountains, Old English firgen, likewise. Green does not reconstruct a pre-Celtic form, aside from saying it must have had initial P-.
Great video explaining all the main theories, but you could go a little bit more in depth about the strong points and weak points of each.
From what i understand the linguistic evidence of Celtic in Western Iberia indicates against the East origin and corroborates the West origin theory, but what evidence seems to go against the West origin theory, and what exactly gives the centre-origin theory credency other than being a middle-ground position?
To be honest, this isn't really my area of interest or expertise. I made the video as a basic introduction to the topic, in response to a question. I suggest that you read Sims-Williams paper, which is linked in the video description.
@@KrisHughes
Thank you
I heard the only branch of equss was the Zebra in the old world. If the Celts came from north of the Caspian Sea, they were probably the only large groupt o encounter the horses going west from North America
Celtic is often a poorly understood and misused term to me it means the pre roman inhabitants of western Europe who spoke a similar language and had related cultures and those modern peoples who have inherited that cultures and/or languages. That being said their prolly isn't a single "origin of the Celts and what we think of as Celtic is prolly a mix of many ancient western cultures. Even the word Celt coming from roman Celtoi (or something similar) could literally just mean those barbaric non-Latin speaking peoples from the west.
I just can't let go of my belief that the Celts were a part of the equine domestication event and that if you want o see the reverse of Celtic myth and lore, it can be found in Vedic Indian mythology. I've also toyed with the idea that the Hittites may have been in the first IndoEuropeans in Ireland.Dr. Victor Mair of the Un of Penn was one of the first people from the west to see the Tocharians and it was his belief that they were Celtic,
Yeah - belief is a different thing. I still hold out some hope that Celts from the West, and John Koch's work will be vindicated - but on the evidence we have, it isn't.
The real origin of the “Celts” is from the “Bronze Age” & the “Urnfield Culture”.
There is a reason that I don't speak in absolutes in this video. It's an approach which has much to recommend it.