12:58 is kind of hitting the nail on the head-if GTK5 doesn't support an app developer's target environment, then they won't update to GTK5. If GIMP is still using GTK2 after 20 years, *our grandkids* will still be using something written using GTK4.
We're already kind of seeing this happening, desktops like Cinnamon and XFCE don't seem at all interested currently in porting to GTK4, the problem isn't just going to go away with GTK5. I expect it to get even worse
@@BrodieRobertsonOne major issues with the modern Linux desktop is certainly libAdwaita, which just spreads like cancer. A lot of Gnome software is basically a no-go for other desktop environments, but at least they will stay up to date with GTK, I guess.
Gimp is a really bad example. It took them 20 Years to update from a dead toolkit to a less dead toolkit. At this pace they will migrate to GTK3 around 2045.
Maintaining X11 and Wayland in the same toolkit is hard, and KDE found it the hard way: originally the KWindowSystem was an abstraction that allowed client to work on any supported windowing system without worrying about differences is APIs and behavior - but Wayland is so different (and difficult) that the Wayland implantation for KWindowSystem is basically a bunch of "not implemented" errors, and now to write a KDE app that does both X11 and Wayland you had to do a bunch of if(isWayland) all over the place. Keeping the X11 backend for GTK as "we won't compile it or maintain it, but it should be fine as we move ahead with Wayland, right?" It's going to break very quickly.
This is one area where RedHat (and Canonical) need to step up. Can't sell your software to corporations and governments with disability protections if your software doesn't have basic accessibility.
The problem with releasing GTK5 with an X11 backend "because it's not causing difficulty yet" is that then it becomes an expected feature of "GTK5" and therefore can't be removed until GTK6, even if it starts causing difficulty. Dropping it preemptively avoids that issue.
@@vaisakh_km Dropping theming means dropping theming, it does not mean "providing a tool". That would be "supporting theming", which is the opposite thing. GTK is absorbed by GNOME and GNOME want to remove every feature in the universe. Eventually your desktop will just be a clock. But no minutes, because they are "too confusing".
GTK makes yet another software deprecation. In an exclusive interview with RUclipsr Brodie Robertson the GTK team confirmed that they believe they can have all functionality completely removed by GTK5. "Yes we are trying to make Gnome even more unusable" they said.
With the case of missing Wayland protocols, what happened to the Frogs project? Besides the initial launch of it, I haven't heard anything about it. Nothing about any integration, update or anything at all.
I do think they should wait for 5 if just for expectation sake. While the writing is on the wall and it's about time, fully ditching X11 is a big change, so it's better off being saved for as major milestone as possible. Plus, if you suddenly nuke it in the middle of gtk 4 ppl might get confused as to where the actual cutoff happened. If you do it in gtk 5, it's a much clearer cut.
If nothing else, it's proper semver to save your breaking changes for the major version bump. If they want to throw up a bunch of deprecation warnings now, fine-never too early to give people a head's up.
I wouldn't care if GTK disappeared tomorrow being a KDE guy I hate it when I have to use a GTK application, the theming is horrible and the file manager is even worse. Every GTK application just looks like beta software buttons are all haphazardly thrown together and the drop-down menus barely function. I don't know how some people work in Gnome where the whole interface is like this doesn't feel natural to a desktop user.
I've used gnome for 2 years, it simply boils down to preference. Some workflows are better for some people. Not saying that gnome is suited for everybody
I disagree. I've been on both GNOME and KDE. Both look good to me. Personally to me, GNOME looks more "modern" and GNOME definitely _doesn't_ look broken I can tell you that. I suppose you're extrapolating too much from your experience of running a GTK application on KDE and assuming that's how it looks on GNOME too.
People really do cry over theming when you actually need to use some app due to some reason? I'd understand if it was because the app's own theming just breaks on non-Gnome platforms, unreadable text, missing icons. But this reason always felt weird to me. I guess people really do care how things look a bit too much.
GTK was the GUI that could be used as bindings with many other languages. QT is very limited in language support. Iced is basically good for Rust, and it is not done anyway. Will it ever be done? The Linux GUI is being stripped down to zero.
I still run x11 because wayland just does a few things that I find annoying, the one that comes to mind right now is last time I tried it, it would force a lower brightness on my gsync monitor, no matter what I did. Another one would be wonky window scaling
Was forcing a lower brightness perhaps HDR? Anyway in KDE there's a brightness slider now, and most of what you said is actually compositor specific, not defined by Wayland itself
Hmm. Past few days I switched to x11, as KDE on Wayland lowered my tv brightness. Although I am plugged in by HDMI>USB C dongle, while plugging it in directly to HDMI on my laptop it works fine... But then it breaks the audio output on HDMI. But I guess something is messed up in my system, as brightness was fine until randomly it was half Bright, and HDMI audio broke after trying to install zrythm and a lot of audio packages.
I tried running a truly headless computer as a Steam Play host, and it wouldn't work at all under Wayland KDE, nor would most remote desktop solutions. Getting an HDMI dummy solved issues only with one app. Switching to X11 fixed all of those problems.
steam remote play liek most lowlatency(sunshine for example) remote desktop solutions use GPU's framebuffer as a source of data which means that a display needs to be connected unless GPU allows for alternative modes(no consumer GPU allows for such modes) as framebuffers only initialize IF display is connected
I think that this will be the most important year for Linux and Wayland, since we've seen a lot of efforts from a lot of companies that involve serious business, so, it'll not be as slow as it has always been, I mean KDE switched to wayland, Wine is switching to Wayland on Wine 10, Valve has also put a lot of effort, etc, so we will see an interesting change this year, it must happen
@@JotaFOC I know Valve indeed is putting in work for this, but at the same time the Steam Client is X11 only and this will never not be funny to me lol.
@@GrzesiekJedenastka I think Valve prioritizes things that work now over promises of working in the future, that's why they decided to force wayland protocols to move forward with the announcement of frog protocols, so it can actually be used sooner rather than later. I get the feeling that if someone came up with an incremental effort to create an X12 protocol that drops the worst/outdated parts of X11 while largely maintaining compatibility with the decent parts, I bet Valve would choose to fund it over Wayland efforts, since the porting effort would be minimal in comparison.
Wayland is just a set of protocols and it does not have any hardware requirements other than being able to quickly exchange image buffers between the compositor and the clients. Consequently, an X11 application that implements all the required protocols can perfectly act as a wayland compositor. This is how I first tested Weston and Sway a few years ago when I was still using a X11 desktop. That still works with Sway. For example, I am currently running Sway+XWayland and, after removing WAYLAND_DISPLAY in a terminal, I can start a second instance of Sway in an XWayland window. The next step would be to make that compositor rootless ; so display each Wayland window as a X11 window. I am not aware of any project doing that but getting a working prototype of a rootless wayland compositor in X11 shall not be that hard.
If not for the fact that you could run Sway under X11 then run GTK5 apps in that, I would consider it a bad thing because there's still non-linux unixes that don't use wayland, and they're basically just voting Unix off the island with that. Of course, I probably wouldn't care if GTK just disappeared entirely and all GTK applications were rewritten in something else.
11:07 - Since when does a Gnome dev care what the community thinks? They haven't given a damn about that since Gnome 3 first released, why the heck would they start now?
it's just secondary to their vision. I think people and organizations should try to realize their vision for a desktop and disregard people's request if they don't align
This is the tail wagging the dog. GTK should not have become as associated with GNOME as it has. It started out as the GIMP ToolKit and GNOME seems to have hijacked it
I remember first switching to Wayland with nouveau drivers on Kepler (roughly 2 years ago, if not more). It used to crash constantly, but it was way smoother and consumed a lot less CPU. It also fixed two of the most annoying xorg bugs for me: broken DPMS and sticky mouse buttons. So I really wanted to stay on sway. After a few weeks I finally bought an AMD card and have been using wayland ever since. It has improved a lot, though I still miss individual window capture (cause wlroots portal doesn't implement it).
Im okay with Gnome dropping Wayland. But not GTK. You can say GTK is the GNOME Toolkit, but as exaple, there are lots and lots of non-gnome tools and environment that run under GTK. I would say even more than under Qt or anything else. So, dropping the support of a toolkit for a still widely used platform, its not nice. Those UI toolkit should be cross platform while possible and maybe in 5 years X11 would be used only by 2 people on earth, but I highly doubt it specially since there are still stuff that doesnt work correctly on wayland. Forcing apps to stay on GTK4 is not nice and it would just hinder even more the port progress having even fewer apps ported to GTK5.
definitely possible.. last times I tried, in hyprland I was able to just drag and drop images (maybe they were both xwayland not sure if that changes anything) and piping images into wl-copy works just fine on sway and hyprland.. might depend if programs are updated to newer version too.
Laptop trackpads feel horrendous to use on Wayland compared to how well they can be configured on X11; it’s not even close. I would at least expect feature parity before dropping X11 even begins to be a discussion but I guess asking devs developing a toolkit used to build interfaces to make sure the interfaces don’t regress significantly is too tall an order.
Well, you're certainly on point that this is the GNOME Toolkit. It's made by Gnome, for Gnome, and does not cater to any other usecase if it can help it. That's been apparent for some time. So from that perspective I'm almost surprised the X11 code is still hanging around in GTK (and Gnome for that matter.) They do so love to remove features that people use. As for the question of "Should they?" I'm not sure. Despite me being happy on Wayland for years now, it still feels quite early. But in 4-5 years maybe it won't. It's also kind of the same situation as RHEL - It's early right now, but if they keep it for the next version they're gonna have to support it for a lot longer than they want to.
You think wayland will have acessability solved in 5 years? I highly doubt that. AFAIK there are no Linux distrubutions that have solved _basic_ acessability option of having a _mono audio_ toggle. At least, I haven't seen any distros like that, which is just *INSANE.* Debian, Ubuntu, Solus, Mint, Elementary, (and probably all others)- what all of these distros have in common is that they fail to implement _basic_ acessability functionality. While all of them claim to be feature rich Desktop distrobutions, omega lol.
@@BrodieRobertson It was 2 line config with pulseaudio. Now with pipewire I'm one of many users who tried to get mono audio and bricked their system, lol. I know it's a skill issue, I shouldn't get frustrated and just copy-paste ChatGPT suggestions into terminal. I only used Linux for 16~ years yet, it's my fault... It's just frustrating, because I don't think it should be my responsibility to include/implement/configure basic functionality on a Desktop OS that tries to be a "mainstream OS". And mono audio is usefull for peple who have hearing impairements. If you can hear with one ear only, you still want to hear both channels with headphones on, etc.
@BrodieRobertson I solved it temporarily by formatting to NTFS and _temporarily_ installing win11, lol. I'll try Linux later, *thanks for replying* tho, ♥️ your content. *Install Windows* Settings > Acessability > Audio [Mono audio toggle] > Winget upgrade -a > Winget install Mozilla.Firefox Done! Took 30 minutes, 6x less time than bricking Ubuntu.
don't worry, in 5 years we'll have yet another graphics stack and have to continue this endless running-in-circles re-implementing the same features over-and-over yet again
Because of those disturbances in the force I decided to write my own window manager which will support any platform needed X11/Wayland/Whatever by extracting windows control logic (move, resize, etc.) in a level of abstraction. Time to prepare for XRagnarok!
I am on x11 still. While Wayland mostly works, there is no mouse wheel sensitivity option, which sucks, windows XP had that. On x11 I am just using imwheel and it works great. The lack of it is so annoying that I would rather go back to Windows...
Lol same, at least Windows doesn't have complete application-breaking changes requiring manual updates that are typically worse technologically than what came before (IE systemd, wayland). Linux is the master of taking one step forward, two steps back.
Wayland still doesn't work for me with one of the applications I use, namely Audacious in XMMS/Winamp mode. Until that's fixed I'll be continuing to use Xorg.
@@cameronbosch1213I don't think the winamp mode is really either of those, and wayland has missing functionality for it I did suggest trying xwayland to OP like I did, guess it didn't work for him? Lol
Well, hopefully I will upgrade my GPU before this happens, and if I don't, that GIMP and the other occasional GTK program I use will stay on GTK4 at most. I currently have a GTX 660 in my workstation, which is no longer supported by Nvidia for years, and thus doesn't have working Wayland support in the driver. There is Nouveau, which has been getting better - it no longer kernel panics after 10 to 50 minutes of use! Now it only crashes Firefox, Plasma and every other accelerated software every so often. Otherwise works great, but I kinda need my things not to crash, so I stay on Nvidia drivers for now.
xfce and cinnamon I think both have experimental wayland support. cinnamon does for sure as I have it on LMDE. lxde IIRC is dead(has been for a few years) replaced by lxqt. I don't think there's a reason to keep the support in GTK for a whole lot longer, tbh. People keep batting around the idea of killing x11, but never do it. Poop or get off the pot already. 🤣
Sorry my ignorance, at the moment still I am a W10 user, thinking about changing to Linux when W10 loses its support, but I do not understand the relationship between GTKx and the rest of Linux distros that are not based on GNome for its desktop. As far as I know, and I am wrong probably, KDE Plasma do not need GTK? Or every desktop needs GTK? if yes... why? Thanks and sorry again for my ignorance.
apps can be dependent on GTK just like they can be on Qt. GNOME is just an entire DE centered around GTK, as is KDE with Qt. For a gross over-simplification of sorts
GTK is a toolkit used to make GUIs. most desktops use GTK for the in-built applications and UIs. there are a bunch of desktops that use other toolkits, like Qt on KDE and LXQt, Iced on Cosmic, etc.
GTK is not the GNOME toolkit, yet. But they sure are trying. That statement is pretty much sums up the I'm taking my ball and going home mentality of the Gnome devs, children that they are. But hell if they want to keep digging their grave, let them GTK is the only thing that gives gnome any relevance today. QT is there, system 76 proved no toolkit is irreplaceable. We don't need another OSX clone anyhow, Elementary already exists if you need to be told how you computer should be used.
As a macOS user and previous Elementary OS user, I can even say that macOS can give you more (or, at least, as much) freedom when compared to Elementary OS. That said, my current Linux of choice is Arch Linux, which has more customization options than I know what to do with, so…
I feel people the motivation to do things, and if removing support for X11 means people will be more motivated to improve wayland support. Then, bring it on!
Thanks for answers about setup, chat! Bonus question, does “office” workflow still suck on Linux? Libre-alternatives did not feel like anything I would use, especially on the compatibility side with word from m*crosoft. Are we still in the google-doc prison?
I've been using Libreoffice just fine, but I guess I'm not a really an office-suite 'poweruser'. It lets me open professor's .docx files, export as PDF, and create/give presentations, which is all I really need it to do.
@@down2006 last time i had to use it (rougly 2019-2021) it would mostly work, but have random docx formatting breakages here and there and other minor annoyances. good enough for me, as i was just a college student, but i can see why it can be really annoying for users with more sophisticated needs. and again, i don't see why would much different nowadays
Wayland lacks ability to have headless remote desktop, sort of like RDP or X2GO, with multiuser capability, to be able to make graphical terminal server.
I'm pretty sure one can do this, unless I missunderstanding what you're wanting, I think KDE has something built in and there's the raspery pi software that the pis use for remote destkop. Or there's waypipe if that's what you're talking about.
@@mathman0569 They have remote access via RDP but it's a mirror of a physical layout. I have a beefy headless server that runs VMs. I want one beefy VM to be terminal server where I could remote into. All solitions I have tested with Wayland were mirroring the display. That means you cannot have multiple monitors with arbitrary resolutions on client side and use the remote desktop in fullscreen and understanding the layout.
GNOME is the ONLY wayland desktop that has headless remote desktop, and it has this feature since GNOME 46. Since GNOME 47, GNOME Remote Desktop now supports reconnecting to headless sessions. It's feature-complete and works better than any hacky X11-based remote desktop solution like XRDP. I've tried them all. Thank god for GNOME Remote Desktop on Wayland.
first and there is no robots yet!!! rare. btw, I think x11 still have userbase and valid use cases. I wish gtk would keep working there in the next 2years
@@NreKonkoro-vt2fo it's not systemd- nor linux-specific. aside from that, "there's linux and some rounding errors" (c) former(?) freebsd dev. although why am i even talking to a void user?..
@@night_h4nter it is though, just take a look at the effort it takes for the Wayland on FreeBSD project to get it running due to how Linux-centric it is...
Its time to invent waylandX, Having a translation layer for wayland only applications to run in X11 is more important than X11 only application to run in wayland. (Old hardware can't run wayland)
What I find hilarious is the security problems with X11. Only total noobs/morons or the younger kids who are all interested in things that don't matter have these issues. Learn to lock down your shit yourself, stop being lazy. The main reason I use a GUI at all is so I can easily manage multiple text displays while I write/interact/debug code. I have no problems playing the few AAA games from steam. I don't use Nvidia cards, ever. Whenever I find one in a system that's been given to me, I SCRAP IT FOR COMPONENTS or I take it directly to the trash bin.
I know this isn't really the place for this, but I genuinely don't know where else to ask at this point. does anyone else have a weird problem with Wayland where if you're not on newer GPUs (ie, on the gtx16 series) and your PC is running for over 14 hours; Wayland suddenly starts deteriorating to the point where it crashes after being on desktop for 5 minutes, causing the whole system to lock up.
I went Gnome with Wayland to have Nvidia working. Now i have nvidia working but with half of refresh rate (80 instead of 160). So i went gnome x11. Honestly, fuck nvidia.
tbh if you have complex hardware like that, best bet is KDE since GNOME often lags behind in implementing stuff, and KDE has stuff like native wayland fractional scaling
GTK is the Gnome Toolkit. Anything that doesn't further Gnome's agenda is not wanted, not supported, and not going to be accepted into the codebase. If you DE uses GTK and is not Gnome, your best bet is to help them decide what to use instead and HELP THEM PORT CODE TO IT.
@kneonspace the Xapp group (kind of a combined effort of Cinnamon, MATE, and XFCE devs along with some others) isn't thrilled by the prospect of a fork apparently.
@@night_h4nter At exists… it's not ideal, but maybe if they sort out the theme nonsense (in progress?) and maybe integrate it with gobject to tie it into that ecosystem…? IDK, we'll see. A GTK3 fork would have a lot of work to make it as Wayland friendly as GTK4 and Qt6. It's starting to feel a little long in the tooth for modern protocols.
@@BrodieRobertson It used to be the Gimp Toolkit. They changed the acronym to no longer stand for anything a while back, but gtk literally started as part of Gimp that got spun off into its own library.
if X11 went away, you'd lose literally most of your software. Linux support for many programs and especially games would go poof. Be glad you have your xwayland
Once nvidia hos solid wayland support i''ll swap to it. I've tried using wayland many times but I always have countless problems that switching to x11 fixes. Until that time its probably not the best idea to drop x11 support
I was using KDE Ubuntu (latest non-LTS) and Wayland was perfect (NVIDIA 560 RTX 4080). My only "problem" is that performance was 33% of Win11 in some games
@ I understand some people dont have problems but tons of people still do and thats the reason x11 is still used by tons of people and wayland just isnt ready to globally replace x11.
@@night_h4nter It was a half joke, I have that card in a PowerMac G5 that I play around with for fun. Runs pretty well with Arch and Xfce. I don't really expect Wayland support for it, but it would be nice :D
Honestly, there's just no reason whatsoever not to remove the x11 backend for GTK5. The few evergreen grandpas still rocking X11 only by the time even a significant number of applications has adopted GTK5 - which will at least add 1-2 years if not more to the 4-5 years for the release of GTK5 - then just have them use Weston to run Wayland-only apps in an X11 session. At least for all I know, that shouldn't be too difficult. Why should they have an easier life as the "last adopters" compared to "early adpters" of Wayland. After all, as you said yourself, this only prevents apps migrating to GTK5 to run inside a X11 session, it doesn't remove the availability for XWayland. On the other hand, I also see no reason to get rid of XWayland, after all there will always be some obscure program someone wants to run that has been abandoned many years ago and that nobody bothers to port to Wayland. As long as it's not actively hurting any further development, there is just no benefit in dropping it. On the other hand, dropping an entire X11 session - or at least making it optional for anyone not using it first - isn't really that big of a deal for many if not most users.
@AndrewKroll then you are just not relevant. If you want your software to be used, you'll have to make it usable. No support for Wayland is already a deal breaker for many, as windows displayed through XWayland always look off. So your refusal to go with the only option that has a future will only land you were X already has been for decades: on the graveyard of failed projects nobody gives a damn about. So in the end you'll only harm your own reputation. PS: with such a comment you really show that you have never written anything of any relevance, so why would anyone care about what you do?
But what about BSDs and other *NIXes? Sure, Wayland is just better and there're already some wayland servers ports on the BSD side, but they're still experimental.
Why do people hate on Wayland so much. It's more or less usable depending on your use case. Some frame pacing and controlability issues on nvidia but thats about it. Ive been using Linux full time for only a little over a year so maybe im missing that the issues are?
Back about 3-5 years ago Wayland was much less mature and had issues with compatibility. Discord screen share was a big one for a lot of people. Wayland and Xorg also had pretty notable performance differences with games. These days that’s much less of an issue especially as WINE gets closer and closer to having great native Wayland support It’s pretty good these days in my opinion. I run a nice little rice using hyprland now and everything I need to work is performant and works 99.9999999% of the time. But I really hated it back in the day because it just wasn’t as mature as X11. Once Wayland got really good trackpad gesture support I changed my tune.
@@bagration7861 im afraid of change that makes things worse I have to resort to using x11 because wayland keeps freezing With support dropping for x11 left and right Things wont be pleasant
Chat, I need your input. Which distro/wm should I use on my new Linux gaming setup? I’m feeling a bit frisky that’s why I’m asking. (Was using Pop_OS! and pretty much familiar with any Debian-like setup)
Pop OS would be a solid choice -- you already know it. Last night I put Fedora on my gaming machine. Haven't had the chance to break it in yet. And I'd recommned against Manjaro -- in my experience their distro tends to be an out of date arch linux with little benefit to stability.
@@td19xyz I'd argue Manjaro is less stable than plain old arch, it mixes new and old packages and whatnot. EndevorOS is what I'd recommend for that niche. PopOS is still a good option, I agree.
@@n.m4497 What do you mean? Have you tried my computers? I have both X11 and Wayland installed and wayland is just so much slower. I get less fps in games and i also have very slow maximizing of videos on wayland, which is not present on Xorg.
With Linux constantly forcing changes that break my workflow instead of changes that enhance what I needed to go full time Linux I just gave up on it altogether. I bought my laptop specifically for the good Linux compatibiliyy yet I just can't anymore. If I do so I miss out on software. I have more dpi scaling issues. I can't remote desktop nearly as well. I have my pulseaudio config taken from me so I need to spend hours remakiny that in pipewire if I even can. I have mesa remove hardware acceleration, and now I am slowly being forced into wayland which makes the remote desktop stuff even harder. My initial goal in 2020 was to be linux exclusive in 2026 as it only needed a few more things. Now I am further from that goal than ever and happily on LTSC with WSL. That does do everything I need it to do and I have updates until 2032. I enjoy Linux content, I enjoy trying things out and tinkering. But that moment where it used to be, man I woulfn't want to be on Windows Linux is so much better changed the other way round and thats because at this point on LTSC I have to deal with less annoying changes.
I think there is some sort of confusion here. GTK isn't "GNOME toolkit", libadwaita is, which is built on top of GTK to provide a universal theme on GNOME(according to their designers). Unlike Qt, GTK isn't backed by a profit earning company.
@@BrodieRobertson They refuse to maintain anything that troubles them even a slightest. The best thing to do here is to fork it and maintain those patches there.
If wayland can't work 100% without ANY lag etc in a virtual-machine, it has no reason to claim yet any exclusivity/priority. Until then, leave X alone.
I'd like to imagine a world where the cacophony of Linux desktop environments and their imbecilic widget toolkits are but a distant memory, replaced by the elegant simplicity of the shell. We would cast aside the distractions of graphical interfaces, embracing only but the raw power of command-line interaction as the great minds at Bell Labs had originally envisioned.
Wayland-only might, no, *will* be the reason why GTK4 will still be the most widely adopted for a long while. While I'm personally in favor of Wayland, you can't simply drop support for something that the majority of desktop systems are still using. Almost no one explicitly chooses Wayland, including myself; if I didn't move from Arch to Fedora a few days ago, I'd still be using X11 this whole time.
Cinnamon desktop is better than GNOME desktop, and GNOME trying to steal GTK away is kinda disgusting, big egos there, for the Mac style, doesn't lets you customize DE.
After like 15 years, Wayland is still not fully usable. Most of the news about it are, "look at this thing that was already present on X11". Imagine what could happen after 15 years of development if the community just forked X11. They just have to fix bugs, fix vulnerabilities and add new features. But software developers must start projects from scratch in order to keep being the dumb branch of engineering.
Absolutely correct, although X would require some breaking changes to be viable in the modern GPU context. Although I do prefer breaking some older apps and keeping core functionality intact. Wayland fragments things even further, now every compositor is its own little snowflake full of incompatible extensions because the base protocol is useless beyond basic drawing.
How you fix vulnerabilities that's backed in the design choice of x11, and the community is already working in the x11 replacement, it's called wayland, or do you really think that x11 "community" are different from the Wayland community
They shared contributors in the past, stop spreading RedHat propaganda that wayland is "like the new X". It's not. They have entirely different design goals, and the "vulnerabilities" of X make of excellent user experience, it's only truly vulnerable if you believe that software should serve an arbitrary ideal of infosec, instead of serving its users.
Wayland is there now, X11 is just not in a good state, it's old and doesn't know what a modern computer is so just doesn't work as it should, like why in the world does X11 assume the app and the gpu are on seperate computers?
@@mathman0569 Because X11 is network transparent, that's literally one of its biggest selling points and also the reason why Remote Desktops are horrible in wayland as wayland does not even have the concept of a network
From what i've heard so far wayland is not really suitable for daily driving, atleast for me. I really think we should wait untill wayland gets more reliable.
I've been daily driving Hyprland for some months now, I don't think there's anything in the way there. It works completely fine with Nvidia eGPU even. A lot of work has been done in recent months/years, so it's totally fine, even Ubuntu is using it as a default by now.
i do daily drive it now, but i had nvidia and a old cpu for a long time i know its not ready for everybody, i have a amd gpu and new cpu so i have the best way to use wayland, that being sad, some types i do run about some apps that i would like to run that is x11 only or a feature i wish i had tha xorg had
the only reason i tolerate wayland is because my desktop feel more polished, smooth and i see less graphical artifacts and im not evben talking about vsync, literal artifacts like when you click to maximize a windows you for a frame you see some part of the app behind it, that happens way less on wayland, it gave me the smothness i needed to be confident to show my OS to my friends without getting a weird bug and they bashing it for being Linux, one thing that needs to be fixed is screensharing on discord / electron, because even tho it works with audio most of the times they see a green artifiact, inverted colors and the transmission takes ages to load, problems i didnt have when using x11
@@beyondcatastrophe_ you didnt get it, there is some apps that dont work in xwayland and in wayland, i mean apps/modules that deal with heavy mods to the way the DE works, all those will never be ported to wayland, im talking real edge stuff not bitching about obs or some other regular gui app
19 часов назад+2
I will use windows before I use current wayland with no remote desktop, GG linux.
And it works perfectly well for a large share of tools. The sunset of X forwarding will kill workflows which have no direct replacement right now, like users running interactive sessions on an HPC server farm. We do not need X11 for that, FWIW and the window content can be rendered with an RDP like protocol into frames managed by the local window server, but there needs to be something where I do not need to run a full remote desktop.
Redhat/Gnome/GTK developers are malicious, deceptive, spiteful villains. I'm saying that without a hint of sarcasm. No surprise there is a revolving door between them and Microsoft.
While I think Wayland is great, it literally _does not work_ on one of my two computers due to Nvidia bs. I won't be able to switch unless I either buy a newer GPU (which I don't want to) or Nouveau finally works properly. So yeah, I need that "obsolete trash". Other than that, there's the accessibility issue, and some specific workflows just don't have required protocols. Wayland is more finished than it is not, but it still needs some time in the oven. (Typing this on my second computer with old ass Intel HD Graphics 4000 running Wayland with no issues).
We'll get GTK 5 before GTA 6
We'll get GTK 7 before GTA 6
By the time GTA 6 and GTK 7 drop, GIMP devs will not have even thought of updating from GTK 4
@@pixl_xip lol
Screw that, we'll get Plasma 7 before GTK5 AND GTA6
imagine wanting either
12:58 is kind of hitting the nail on the head-if GTK5 doesn't support an app developer's target environment, then they won't update to GTK5. If GIMP is still using GTK2 after 20 years, *our grandkids* will still be using something written using GTK4.
We're already kind of seeing this happening, desktops like Cinnamon and XFCE don't seem at all interested currently in porting to GTK4, the problem isn't just going to go away with GTK5. I expect it to get even worse
@@BrodieRobertsonOne major issues with the modern Linux desktop is certainly libAdwaita, which just spreads like cancer. A lot of Gnome software is basically a no-go for other desktop environments, but at least they will stay up to date with GTK, I guess.
@@5Hydroxytryptophanthey certainly took "there shall be only one" to heart, eh?
Gimp is a really bad example. It took them 20 Years to update from a dead toolkit to a less dead toolkit. At this pace they will migrate to GTK3 around 2045.
@@Linuxdirk the gtk3 migration is practically complete, I daily drive it.
Maintaining X11 and Wayland in the same toolkit is hard, and KDE found it the hard way: originally the KWindowSystem was an abstraction that allowed client to work on any supported windowing system without worrying about differences is APIs and behavior - but Wayland is so different (and difficult) that the Wayland implantation for KWindowSystem is basically a bunch of "not implemented" errors, and now to write a KDE app that does both X11 and Wayland you had to do a bunch of if(isWayland) all over the place.
Keeping the X11 backend for GTK as "we won't compile it or maintain it, but it should be fine as we move ahead with Wayland, right?" It's going to break very quickly.
Im fine with killing Wayland on KDE. But not on Qt for instance. For the same reason i woudnt kill on GTK but would on gnome.
@@arturpaivadsthat doesn't solve the issue mentioned on the comment
0:50 - Initial commit, Matthias Clasen, alexlarsson
If the critical protocols can't be decided on, how will ones with far less usage, like accessibility, completed?
This is one area where RedHat (and Canonical) need to step up. Can't sell your software to corporations and governments with disability protections if your software doesn't have basic accessibility.
No one is in disagreement about accessibility, that's an important distinction
The problem with releasing GTK5 with an X11 backend "because it's not causing difficulty yet" is that then it becomes an expected feature of "GTK5" and therefore can't be removed until GTK6, even if it starts causing difficulty. Dropping it preemptively avoids that issue.
GTK 5 is also dropping support for traditional theming, so I think GTK 4 will stay relevant for very long.
I am fine with that, if they provide a simple desktop indipendent tool/protocol to manage theme
GTK3 bros will keep winning
@@vaisakh_km I suspect something like Mint's XApps could fulfill that role, but they're still stuck on GTK 3.
@@vaisakh_km They won't.
@@vaisakh_km Dropping theming means dropping theming, it does not mean "providing a tool". That would be "supporting theming", which is the opposite thing.
GTK is absorbed by GNOME and GNOME want to remove every feature in the universe. Eventually your desktop will just be a clock. But no minutes, because they are "too confusing".
GTK makes yet another software deprecation. In an exclusive interview with RUclipsr Brodie Robertson the GTK team confirmed that they believe they can have all functionality completely removed by GTK5. "Yes we are trying to make Gnome even more unusable" they said.
With the case of missing Wayland protocols, what happened to the Frogs project? Besides the initial launch of it, I haven't heard anything about it. Nothing about any integration, update or anything at all.
frog protocols were banned from wayland, at least the developer was banned from viewing source code
@@nou712 huh?
@@nou712can you clarify if you're talking about libwayland, Wayland protocols, freedesktop gitlab, or an integration ban?
Yeah, I am curious as well
@@nou712🧐
I do think they should wait for 5 if just for expectation sake. While the writing is on the wall and it's about time, fully ditching X11 is a big change, so it's better off being saved for as major milestone as possible. Plus, if you suddenly nuke it in the middle of gtk 4 ppl might get confused as to where the actual cutoff happened. If you do it in gtk 5, it's a much clearer cut.
If nothing else, it's proper semver to save your breaking changes for the major version bump. If they want to throw up a bunch of deprecation warnings now, fine-never too early to give people a head's up.
I don't even understand how they could nuke it mid-version if they even want to pretend GTK is semantically versioned.
Isn't it literally up there in the commit message that the gtk4 apps will continue to work on x11? So what do you mean?
I wouldn't care if GTK disappeared tomorrow being a KDE guy I hate it when I have to use a GTK application, the theming is horrible and the file manager is even worse. Every GTK application just looks like beta software buttons are all haphazardly thrown together and the drop-down menus barely function. I don't know how some people work in Gnome where the whole interface is like this doesn't feel natural to a desktop user.
this 100%
I've used gnome for 2 years, it simply boils down to preference. Some workflows are better for some people. Not saying that gnome is suited for everybody
I disagree. I've been on both GNOME and KDE. Both look good to me. Personally to me, GNOME looks more "modern" and GNOME definitely _doesn't_ look broken I can tell you that. I suppose you're extrapolating too much from your experience of running a GTK application on KDE and assuming that's how it looks on GNOME too.
You mean windows user, not desktop user. Desktops have variety.
People really do cry over theming when you actually need to use some app due to some reason?
I'd understand if it was because the app's own theming just breaks on non-Gnome platforms, unreadable text, missing icons.
But this reason always felt weird to me. I guess people really do care how things look a bit too much.
GTK was the GUI that could be used as bindings with many other languages. QT is very limited in language support. Iced is basically good for Rust, and it is not done anyway. Will it ever be done? The Linux GUI is being stripped down to zero.
I still run x11 because wayland just does a few things that I find annoying, the one that comes to mind right now is last time I tried it, it would force a lower brightness on my gsync monitor, no matter what I did.
Another one would be wonky window scaling
Was forcing a lower brightness perhaps HDR? Anyway in KDE there's a brightness slider now, and most of what you said is actually compositor specific, not defined by Wayland itself
window scaling should be fixed now, no idea about the gsync brightness, however. can't blame you for keeping X11 on nvidia
Hmm. Past few days I switched to x11, as KDE on Wayland lowered my tv brightness.
Although I am plugged in by HDMI>USB C dongle, while plugging it in directly to HDMI on my laptop it works fine... But then it breaks the audio output on HDMI.
But I guess something is messed up in my system, as brightness was fine until randomly it was half Bright, and HDMI audio broke after trying to install zrythm and a lot of audio packages.
I tried running a truly headless computer as a Steam Play host, and it wouldn't work at all under Wayland KDE, nor would most remote desktop solutions. Getting an HDMI dummy solved issues only with one app. Switching to X11 fixed all of those problems.
steam remote play liek most lowlatency(sunshine for example) remote desktop solutions use GPU's framebuffer as a source of data which means that a display needs to be connected unless GPU allows for alternative modes(no consumer GPU allows for such modes) as framebuffers only initialize IF display is connected
I think that this will be the most important year for Linux and Wayland, since we've seen a lot of efforts from a lot of companies that involve serious business, so, it'll not be as slow as it has always been, I mean KDE switched to wayland, Wine is switching to Wayland on Wine 10, Valve has also put a lot of effort, etc, so we will see an interesting change this year, it must happen
@@JotaFOC I know Valve indeed is putting in work for this, but at the same time the Steam Client is X11 only and this will never not be funny to me lol.
@@GrzesiekJedenastka I think Valve prioritizes things that work now over promises of working in the future, that's why they decided to force wayland protocols to move forward with the announcement of frog protocols, so it can actually be used sooner rather than later.
I get the feeling that if someone came up with an incremental effort to create an X12 protocol that drops the worst/outdated parts of X11 while largely maintaining compatibility with the decent parts, I bet Valve would choose to fund it over Wayland efforts, since the porting effort would be minimal in comparison.
@@GrzesiekJedenastkaI doubt it'd be too much effort to port their client to wayland when they'd actually want to, since it's all webview.
If anything, someone can make a Wayland proxy for X11, sort of like a reverse XWayland.
Turn the tables and make Wayland a deprecated subsystem for X-Windows. ;-)
Wayland is just a set of protocols and it does not have any hardware requirements other than being able to quickly exchange image buffers between the compositor and the clients.
Consequently, an X11 application that implements all the required protocols can perfectly act as a wayland compositor. This is how I first tested Weston and Sway a few years ago when I was still using a X11 desktop. That still works with Sway. For example, I am currently running Sway+XWayland and, after removing WAYLAND_DISPLAY in a terminal, I can start a second instance of Sway in an XWayland window. The next step would be to make that compositor rootless ; so display each Wayland window as a X11 window.
I am not aware of any project doing that but getting a working prototype of a rootless wayland compositor in X11 shall not be that hard.
i am gonna maintain x12 and get it into gtk
(actually not but you know)
If not for the fact that you could run Sway under X11 then run GTK5 apps in that, I would consider it a bad thing because there's still non-linux unixes that don't use wayland, and they're basically just voting Unix off the island with that.
Of course, I probably wouldn't care if GTK just disappeared entirely and all GTK applications were rewritten in something else.
>Of course, I probably wouldn't care if GTK just disappeared entirely and all GTK applications were rewritten in something else.
man, we can dream
Hope they make it work first. Still having weird stutters during CPU load and input lag.
11:07 - Since when does a Gnome dev care what the community thinks? They haven't given a damn about that since Gnome 3 first released, why the heck would they start now?
They like to pretend.
it's just secondary to their vision. I think people and organizations should try to realize their vision for a desktop and disregard people's request if they don't align
This is the tail wagging the dog. GTK should not have become as associated with GNOME as it has. It started out as the GIMP ToolKit and GNOME seems to have hijacked it
usecase for Australia?
That one guy maintaining a lot of of X11 is going to be pissed about this
Nobody cares about that lunatic though.
Why would anyone be pissed about a stupid project making stupid decisions? Just don't use GTK.
@felipec do you really think other toolkits won't drop X11 support in the near future too, as that's just unnecessary code? How naive...
I remember first switching to Wayland with nouveau drivers on Kepler (roughly 2 years ago, if not more). It used to crash constantly, but it was way smoother and consumed a lot less CPU. It also fixed two of the most annoying xorg bugs for me: broken DPMS and sticky mouse buttons. So I really wanted to stay on sway. After a few weeks I finally bought an AMD card and have been using wayland ever since. It has improved a lot, though I still miss individual window capture (cause wlroots portal doesn't implement it).
Im okay with Gnome dropping Wayland. But not GTK. You can say GTK is the GNOME Toolkit, but as exaple, there are lots and lots of non-gnome tools and environment that run under GTK. I would say even more than under Qt or anything else.
So, dropping the support of a toolkit for a still widely used platform, its not nice. Those UI toolkit should be cross platform while possible and maybe in 5 years X11 would be used only by 2 people on earth, but I highly doubt it specially since there are still stuff that doesnt work correctly on wayland. Forcing apps to stay on GTK4 is not nice and it would just hinder even more the port progress having even fewer apps ported to GTK5.
Gnome dropping wayland??? You mean x11?
when it becomes possible to copy images in Wayland, now it's the time to delete X11
definitely possible.. last times I tried, in hyprland I was able to just drag and drop images (maybe they were both xwayland not sure if that changes anything) and piping images into wl-copy works just fine on sway and hyprland.. might depend if programs are updated to newer version too.
Laptop trackpads feel horrendous to use on Wayland compared to how well they can be configured on X11; it’s not even close. I would at least expect feature parity before dropping X11 even begins to be a discussion but I guess asking devs developing a toolkit used to build interfaces to make sure the interfaces don’t regress significantly is too tall an order.
My experience is quite the opposite. The trackpad sucks on X11 and is pretty much perfect on Wayland.
wdym? also my laptop trackpad has them fancy multi-finger gestures on wayland
Well, you're certainly on point that this is the GNOME Toolkit. It's made by Gnome, for Gnome, and does not cater to any other usecase if it can help it. That's been apparent for some time. So from that perspective I'm almost surprised the X11 code is still hanging around in GTK (and Gnome for that matter.) They do so love to remove features that people use.
As for the question of "Should they?" I'm not sure. Despite me being happy on Wayland for years now, it still feels quite early. But in 4-5 years maybe it won't. It's also kind of the same situation as RHEL - It's early right now, but if they keep it for the next version they're gonna have to support it for a lot longer than they want to.
"the..uh...uh...mental blank" lol XD
You think wayland will have acessability solved in 5 years? I highly doubt that.
AFAIK there are no Linux distrubutions that have solved _basic_ acessability option of having a _mono audio_ toggle. At least, I haven't seen any distros like that, which is just *INSANE.*
Debian, Ubuntu, Solus, Mint, Elementary, (and probably all others)- what all of these distros have in common is that they fail to implement _basic_ acessability functionality.
While all of them claim to be feature rich Desktop distrobutions, omega lol.
I don't think I've ever even seen that mentioned as an accessibility function, but regardless it's a 2 line config change
@@BrodieRobertson It was 2 line config with pulseaudio.
Now with pipewire I'm one of many users who tried to get mono audio and bricked their system, lol.
I know it's a skill issue, I shouldn't get frustrated and just copy-paste ChatGPT suggestions into terminal. I only used Linux for 16~ years yet, it's my fault...
It's just frustrating, because I don't think it should be my responsibility to include/implement/configure basic functionality on a Desktop OS that tries to be a "mainstream OS".
And mono audio is usefull for peple who have hearing impairements.
If you can hear with one ear only, you still want to hear both channels with headphones on, etc.
@@majus1334 doing a quick search you should be able to just toggle it with easyeffects
@BrodieRobertson I solved it temporarily by formatting to NTFS and _temporarily_ installing win11, lol. I'll try Linux later, *thanks for replying* tho, ♥️ your content.
*Install Windows*
Settings > Acessability > Audio [Mono audio toggle]
> Winget upgrade -a
> Winget install Mozilla.Firefox
Done! Took 30 minutes, 6x less time than bricking Ubuntu.
20 years later i still have the feeling the Linux or better said the toolkit graphic stack didn't do any step further.
don't worry, in 5 years we'll have yet another graphics stack and have to continue this endless running-in-circles re-implementing the same features over-and-over yet again
Because of those disturbances in the force I decided to write my own window manager which will support any platform needed X11/Wayland/Whatever by extracting windows control logic (move, resize, etc.) in a level of abstraction. Time to prepare for XRagnarok!
that's a pretty big undertaking
just fyi: arcan exists
We need more X11 alternatives on Wayland for a smooth transition.
accessibility is soooo far behind on wayland and theres no excuse. the portals and extensions MUST be there before removal
13:55 Thank you for this clip. 2028 is going to be awesome!
I am on x11 still. While Wayland mostly works, there is no mouse wheel sensitivity option, which sucks, windows XP had that. On x11 I am just using imwheel and it works great. The lack of it is so annoying that I would rather go back to Windows...
Lol same, at least Windows doesn't have complete application-breaking changes requiring manual updates that are typically worse technologically than what came before (IE systemd, wayland). Linux is the master of taking one step forward, two steps back.
If GTK5 drops support for X11, then so be it. I'll stay right where I am.
Will Wayland allow for applications that can decorate other applications? I kind of miss the steam overlay and hearthstone deck tracker.
steam overlay works fine in wayland for me. iirc it injects a dll into the game, rather than drawing over it.
@@realryleu and Gamescope is a full XWayland instance, right?
well drawing over another app i higly doubt for few reasons one of them and kinda most important is security how can that be done securtly
@@realryleuIt's actually the other way around. It's the game using the steam's API with their dlls.
Wayland still doesn't work for me with one of the applications I use, namely Audacious in XMMS/Winamp mode. Until that's fixed I'll be continuing to use Xorg.
How does it not work? It uses Qt or GTK, both of which have Wayland support!?
Are you reporting the issue upstream. Maybe it's not working in your case because the devs are unaware.
@@cameronbosch1213I don't think the winamp mode is really either of those, and wayland has missing functionality for it
I did suggest trying xwayland to OP like I did, guess it didn't work for him? Lol
Submit an issue in the project repository
I wish wine had better compatibility with Wayland
So, if you want a GUI toolkit that is DE agnostic, you are now left with qt, wxWidget, and gtk3 ?
Good, Wayland is the future of Linux
Well, hopefully I will upgrade my GPU before this happens, and if I don't, that GIMP and the other occasional GTK program I use will stay on GTK4 at most.
I currently have a GTX 660 in my workstation, which is no longer supported by Nvidia for years, and thus doesn't have working Wayland support in the driver. There is Nouveau, which has been getting better - it no longer kernel panics after 10 to 50 minutes of use! Now it only crashes Firefox, Plasma and every other accelerated software every so often. Otherwise works great, but I kinda need my things not to crash, so I stay on Nvidia drivers for now.
xfce and cinnamon I think both have experimental wayland support. cinnamon does for sure as I have it on LMDE. lxde IIRC is dead(has been for a few years) replaced by lxqt. I don't think there's a reason to keep the support in GTK for a whole lot longer, tbh. People keep batting around the idea of killing x11, but never do it. Poop or get off the pot already. 🤣
Sorry my ignorance, at the moment still I am a W10 user, thinking about changing to Linux when W10 loses its support, but I do not understand the relationship between GTKx and the rest of Linux distros that are not based on GNome for its desktop. As far as I know, and I am wrong probably, KDE Plasma do not need GTK? Or every desktop needs GTK? if yes... why? Thanks and sorry again for my ignorance.
apps can be dependent on GTK just like they can be on Qt. GNOME is just an entire DE centered around GTK, as is KDE with Qt.
For a gross over-simplification of sorts
GTK is a toolkit used to make GUIs. most desktops use GTK for the in-built applications and UIs. there are a bunch of desktops that use other toolkits, like Qt on KDE and LXQt, Iced on Cosmic, etc.
GTK is not the GNOME toolkit, yet. But they sure are trying. That statement is pretty much sums up the I'm taking my ball and going home mentality of the Gnome devs, children that they are. But hell if they want to keep digging their grave, let them GTK is the only thing that gives gnome any relevance today. QT is there, system 76 proved no toolkit is irreplaceable. We don't need another OSX clone anyhow, Elementary already exists if you need to be told how you computer should be used.
As a macOS user and previous Elementary OS user, I can even say that macOS can give you more (or, at least, as much) freedom when compared to Elementary OS.
That said, my current Linux of choice is Arch Linux, which has more customization options than I know what to do with, so…
it's just one way of doing things, gnome is really not digging their grave, development on gnome is thriving
who are "we"?
I feel people the motivation to do things, and if removing support for X11 means people will be more motivated to improve wayland support. Then, bring it on!
Thanks for answers about setup, chat!
Bonus question, does “office” workflow still suck on Linux? Libre-alternatives did not feel like anything I would use, especially on the compatibility side with word from m*crosoft. Are we still in the google-doc prison?
LibreOffice is pretty nice, IMO. But if GDocs isn't your style, I believe Office365 is fully available in the browser now.
why would it change tho? nobody cares enough about it
@ aww dangit, so unfortunate, google-doc it is…
I've been using Libreoffice just fine, but I guess I'm not a really an office-suite 'poweruser'.
It lets me open professor's .docx files, export as PDF, and create/give presentations, which is all I really need it to do.
@@down2006 last time i had to use it (rougly 2019-2021) it would mostly work, but have random docx formatting breakages here and there and other minor annoyances. good enough for me, as i was just a college student, but i can see why it can be really annoying for users with more sophisticated needs. and again, i don't see why would much different nowadays
wayland has been running alot better than it was like 2 years ago on my nvidia setup, hopefully the progress continues o7.
Wayland lacks ability to have headless remote desktop, sort of like RDP or X2GO, with multiuser capability, to be able to make graphical terminal server.
I'm pretty sure one can do this, unless I missunderstanding what you're wanting, I think KDE has something built in and there's the raspery pi software that the pis use for remote destkop. Or there's waypipe if that's what you're talking about.
@@mathman0569 They have remote access via RDP but it's a mirror of a physical layout. I have a beefy headless server that runs VMs. I want one beefy VM to be terminal server where I could remote into. All solitions I have tested with Wayland were mirroring the display. That means you cannot have multiple monitors with arbitrary resolutions on client side and use the remote desktop in fullscreen and understanding the layout.
have you tried using waypipe?
At least Gnome 47 (maybe 46 too) has this built in: Settings -> System -> Remote Desktop -> Remote Login
GNOME is the ONLY wayland desktop that has headless remote desktop, and it has this feature since GNOME 46. Since GNOME 47, GNOME Remote Desktop now supports reconnecting to headless sessions. It's feature-complete and works better than any hacky X11-based remote desktop solution like XRDP. I've tried them all. Thank god for GNOME Remote Desktop on Wayland.
first and there is no robots yet!!! rare. btw, I think x11 still have userbase and valid use cases. I wish gtk would keep working there in the next 2years
I just want X12, and I will piledrive anyone who pretends like "uhm akshually x12 is waylanb"
@@mmmmfhthe X server is dated. wayland is the future.
@@cromfrein A systemd/Linux-specific dependent display protocol cannot be the future of the *nix desktop.
@@NreKonkoro-vt2fo it's not systemd- nor linux-specific. aside from that, "there's linux and some rounding errors" (c) former(?) freebsd dev. although why am i even talking to a void user?..
@@night_h4nter it is though, just take a look at the effort it takes for the Wayland on FreeBSD project to get it running due to how Linux-centric it is...
Its time to invent waylandX,
Having a translation layer for wayland only applications to run in X11 is more important than X11 only application to run in wayland.
(Old hardware can't run wayland)
What I find hilarious is the security problems with X11.
Only total noobs/morons or the younger kids who are all interested in things that don't matter have these issues.
Learn to lock down your shit yourself, stop being lazy. The main reason I use a GUI at all is so I can easily manage multiple text displays while I write/interact/debug code.
I have no problems playing the few AAA games from steam.
I don't use Nvidia cards, ever. Whenever I find one in a system that's been given to me, I SCRAP IT FOR COMPONENTS or I take it directly to the trash bin.
it's already here, it's how we developed wayland apps at the beginning.
I know this isn't really the place for this, but I genuinely don't know where else to ask at this point.
does anyone else have a weird problem with Wayland where if you're not on newer GPUs (ie, on the gtx16 series) and your PC is running for over 14 hours; Wayland suddenly starts deteriorating to the point where it crashes after being on desktop for 5 minutes, causing the whole system to lock up.
My outro: To X11: GTKthxbye
14:10 Mark your calendar!
What is Hannah Montana Linux gonna do?
I went Gnome with Wayland to have Nvidia working. Now i have nvidia working but with half of refresh rate (80 instead of 160). So i went gnome x11.
Honestly, fuck nvidia.
I usually throw Nvidia cards in the trash compactor.
tbh if you have complex hardware like that, best bet is KDE since GNOME often lags behind in implementing stuff, and KDE has stuff like native wayland fractional scaling
@aquaponieee I don't know what's "complex" here. But I really like Gnome, and don't need any particular wayland feature.
X11, X10, X9… 😈
Waywater
@@vaisakh_km Wayair
X12, X14... Oh, we weren't talking about trains? 😄
Will Cinnamon be ready by then?
What about MATE?
Cinnamon is still on GTK3 isn't it?
I thought they will be using their own maintained GTK3+ fork instead of going GTK4/5...mainly to avoid libadwaita and other Gnome BS
@ I know there's been talks of developing a fork with other GTK3 desktops, I don't know if it's actually happening though
GTK is the Gnome Toolkit. Anything that doesn't further Gnome's agenda is not wanted, not supported, and not going to be accepted into the codebase. If you DE uses GTK and is not Gnome, your best bet is to help them decide what to use instead and HELP THEM PORT CODE TO IT.
And to think it used to be GIMP Toolkit...
Or band together and (soft or hard) fork gtk
@kneonspace the Xapp group (kind of a combined effort of Cinnamon, MATE, and XFCE devs along with some others) isn't thrilled by the prospect of a fork apparently.
@@knghtbrd it's not like they have that much of a choice
@@night_h4nter At exists… it's not ideal, but maybe if they sort out the theme nonsense (in progress?) and maybe integrate it with gobject to tie it into that ecosystem…? IDK, we'll see. A GTK3 fork would have a lot of work to make it as Wayland friendly as GTK4 and Qt6. It's starting to feel a little long in the tooth for modern protocols.
"GTK is the Gnome Toolkit". I thought it was named the Gimp Toolkit
Well today it's actually named GTK, it doesn't stand for anything. But it's developed like it's the GNOME toolkit
@@BrodieRobertson It used to be the Gimp Toolkit. They changed the acronym to no longer stand for anything a while back, but gtk literally started as part of Gimp that got spun off into its own library.
It was when it was good.
Frankly, x11 should go away now.
It causes more problems than Wayland now. Like some xwayland apps are a pain in the butt now
Lol I wonder who's fault that is for making a translation layer a requirement in the first place
if X11 went away, you'd lose literally most of your software. Linux support for many programs and especially games would go poof. Be glad you have your xwayland
Once nvidia hos solid wayland support i''ll swap to it. I've tried using wayland many times but I always have countless problems that switching to x11 fixes. Until that time its probably not the best idea to drop x11 support
I can't get Wayland running on my FX5200 :(
I was using KDE Ubuntu (latest non-LTS) and Wayland was perfect (NVIDIA 560 RTX 4080).
My only "problem" is that performance was 33% of Win11 in some games
@ I understand some people dont have problems but tons of people still do and thats the reason x11 is still used by tons of people and wayland just isnt ready to globally replace x11.
@@enemixius just in case this wasn't a joke: that thing has belonged to a trash can for far more than a decade now
@@night_h4nter It was a half joke, I have that card in a PowerMac G5 that I play around with for fun. Runs pretty well with Arch and Xfce. I don't really expect Wayland support for it, but it would be nice :D
Bald of you to assume people will still be using GTK once Cosmic comes out.
I’m still not fully sold on Wayland theirs a lot of things Wayland can’t do that xorg can
We get GTK 5 before nuclear war
Yall are complaining about Gnome not wanting to support user themes, as if any toolkit other than GTK and Qt ever supported it
Honestly, there's just no reason whatsoever not to remove the x11 backend for GTK5. The few evergreen grandpas still rocking X11 only by the time even a significant number of applications has adopted GTK5 - which will at least add 1-2 years if not more to the 4-5 years for the release of GTK5 - then just have them use Weston to run Wayland-only apps in an X11 session. At least for all I know, that shouldn't be too difficult. Why should they have an easier life as the "last adopters" compared to "early adpters" of Wayland. After all, as you said yourself, this only prevents apps migrating to GTK5 to run inside a X11 session, it doesn't remove the availability for XWayland.
On the other hand, I also see no reason to get rid of XWayland, after all there will always be some obscure program someone wants to run that has been abandoned many years ago and that nobody bothers to port to Wayland. As long as it's not actively hurting any further development, there is just no benefit in dropping it. On the other hand, dropping an entire X11 session - or at least making it optional for anyone not using it first - isn't really that big of a deal for many if not most users.
I certainly won't port anything I write to Wayland
@AndrewKroll then you are just not relevant. If you want your software to be used, you'll have to make it usable. No support for Wayland is already a deal breaker for many, as windows displayed through XWayland always look off. So your refusal to go with the only option that has a future will only land you were X already has been for decades: on the graveyard of failed projects nobody gives a damn about. So in the end you'll only harm your own reputation.
PS: with such a comment you really show that you have never written anything of any relevance, so why would anyone care about what you do?
That’s kinda sad I liked xorg better
But what about BSDs and other *NIXes? Sure, Wayland is just better and there're already some wayland servers ports on the BSD side, but they're still experimental.
Why do people hate on Wayland so much. It's more or less usable depending on your use case. Some frame pacing and controlability issues on nvidia but thats about it. Ive been using Linux full time for only a little over a year so maybe im missing that the issues are?
Back about 3-5 years ago Wayland was much less mature and had issues with compatibility. Discord screen share was a big one for a lot of people. Wayland and Xorg also had pretty notable performance differences with games. These days that’s much less of an issue especially as WINE gets closer and closer to having great native Wayland support
It’s pretty good these days in my opinion. I run a nice little rice using hyprland now and everything I need to work is performant and works 99.9999999% of the time. But I really hated it back in the day because it just wasn’t as mature as X11. Once Wayland got really good trackpad gesture support I changed my tune.
People are afraid of change, that's all
Wayland is like windows. Usable only by some entities. Looking forward for it's future.
it sacrifices basic functionality for "security"
@@bagration7861 im afraid of change that makes things worse
I have to resort to using x11 because wayland keeps freezing
With support dropping for x11 left and right
Things wont be pleasant
Chat, I need your input. Which distro/wm should I use on my new Linux gaming setup? I’m feeling a bit frisky that’s why I’m asking.
(Was using Pop_OS! and pretty much familiar with any Debian-like setup)
gentoo
Pop OS would be a solid choice -- you already know it.
Last night I put Fedora on my gaming machine. Haven't had the chance to break it in yet.
And I'd recommned against Manjaro -- in my experience their distro tends to be an out of date arch linux with little benefit to stability.
Nobara
Windows 10 LTSC IoT Enterprise. MASGrave that bad boy, install your drivers and enjoy
@@td19xyz I'd argue Manjaro is less stable than plain old arch, it mixes new and old packages and whatnot. EndevorOS is what I'd recommend for that niche. PopOS is still a good option, I agree.
"surely by then..." err this is Wayland you're talking about.
X11 still rulez
Supporting x11 is good though. Even ignoring missing features and market share more options is better
i guess they just don't really have capacity for that
What is with these Wayland shills? X11 is still relevant
Wayland is still too slow on my computers. Will be keeping X11 for a few more years
Hey pal, you just blew in from stupid town?
@@n.m4497 What do you mean? Have you tried my computers? I have both X11 and Wayland installed and wayland is just so much slower. I get less fps in games and i also have very slow maximizing of videos on wayland, which is not present on Xorg.
With Linux constantly forcing changes that break my workflow instead of changes that enhance what I needed to go full time Linux I just gave up on it altogether. I bought my laptop specifically for the good Linux compatibiliyy yet I just can't anymore. If I do so I miss out on software. I have more dpi scaling issues. I can't remote desktop nearly as well. I have my pulseaudio config taken from me so I need to spend hours remakiny that in pipewire if I even can. I have mesa remove hardware acceleration, and now I am slowly being forced into wayland which makes the remote desktop stuff even harder. My initial goal in 2020 was to be linux exclusive in 2026 as it only needed a few more things. Now I am further from that goal than ever and happily on LTSC with WSL. That does do everything I need it to do and I have updates until 2032. I enjoy Linux content, I enjoy trying things out and tinkering. But that moment where it used to be, man I woulfn't want to be on Windows Linux is so much better changed the other way round and thats because at this point on LTSC I have to deal with less annoying changes.
I think there is some sort of confusion here. GTK isn't "GNOME toolkit", libadwaita is, which is built on top of GTK to provide a universal theme on GNOME(according to their designers). Unlike Qt, GTK isn't backed by a profit earning company.
Whilst that's true on paper there have been a number of patches rejected on the basis that it's not useful in GNOME
@@BrodieRobertson They refuse to maintain anything that troubles them even a slightest. The best thing to do here is to fork it and maintain those patches there.
@foreignconta or just support other toolkits
@@BrodieRobertson please tell that to Firefox.
Ohmyzsh😂😂😂 just drop x11 already 😂😂😂
If wayland can't work 100% without ANY lag etc in a virtual-machine, it has no reason to claim yet any exclusivity/priority. Until then, leave X alone.
For me, Wayland has worked perfectly fine with less lag than x11 in virtual machines
Every piece of code will lag, Xorg will lag
@@BrodieRobertson lag free programs are impossible unless you set a certain threshold for lag
@@BrodieRobertson they obviously mean additional lag
I'll drop GTK
I guess 5 is the unlucky number for windowing toolkits and their DEs.
what was up with plasma 5?
@@7_8_9 plasma 5 was awesome but KDE 4 was a nightmare
If they drop it, I'll not mind it. I've been using Wayland just fine and I never had the need to go back to X.
Gnome wasting time on things that don't matter. Something new?
X11 was already supposed to be discontinued
and it will be in 2055... until then, just wait for wayland to mature.
just depreciate gnome 😅
o no ... my hardware (my laptop) isnt totally ready for wayland only due to driver (nvidia)....
There's no set release date, wouldn't worry about it yet. Nvidia is putting in some work to fix their lacking Wayland support lately.
I take any Nvidia garbage cards straight to the trash bin. Overpriced hyped crap.
Judging by prior releases it's probably at least 4 years away, but nothing is planned currently.
I'd like to imagine a world where the cacophony of Linux desktop environments and their imbecilic widget toolkits are but a distant memory, replaced by the elegant simplicity of the shell. We would cast aside the distractions of graphical interfaces, embracing only but the raw power of command-line interaction as the great minds at Bell Labs had originally envisioned.
Wayland-only might, no, *will* be the reason why GTK4 will still be the most widely adopted for a long while. While I'm personally in favor of Wayland, you can't simply drop support for something that the majority of desktop systems are still using. Almost no one explicitly chooses Wayland, including myself; if I didn't move from Arch to Fedora a few days ago, I'd still be using X11 this whole time.
I don't think the support is being dropped anytime soon.
Cinnamon desktop is better than GNOME desktop, and GNOME trying to steal GTK away is kinda disgusting, big egos there, for the Mac style, doesn't lets you customize DE.
Cinnamon isn't much better than GNOME anymore. It's still below Xfce imo.
if you're fine with dated and ugly ui, maybe
@gian-marco6047Beauty is subjective. I'd take Cinnamon's colorfulness over Gnome's ugly monotone minimalism any day
@@spatiumowl They literally just copied GNOME with Cinnamon 6.4
@@spatiumowl Cinnamon 6 4 looks like a GNOME ripoff now.
gnome gonna piss everyone off as usual
After like 15 years, Wayland is still not fully usable. Most of the news about it are, "look at this thing that was already present on X11". Imagine what could happen after 15 years of development if the community just forked X11. They just have to fix bugs, fix vulnerabilities and add new features. But software developers must start projects from scratch in order to keep being the dumb branch of engineering.
Absolutely correct, although X would require some breaking changes to be viable in the modern GPU context. Although I do prefer breaking some older apps and keeping core functionality intact. Wayland fragments things even further, now every compositor is its own little snowflake full of incompatible extensions because the base protocol is useless beyond basic drawing.
How you fix vulnerabilities that's backed in the design choice of x11, and the community is already working in the x11 replacement, it's called wayland, or do you really think that x11 "community" are different from the Wayland community
They shared contributors in the past, stop spreading RedHat propaganda that wayland is "like the new X". It's not. They have entirely different design goals, and the "vulnerabilities" of X make of excellent user experience, it's only truly vulnerable if you believe that software should serve an arbitrary ideal of infosec, instead of serving its users.
Wayland is there now, X11 is just not in a good state, it's old and doesn't know what a modern computer is so just doesn't work as it should, like why in the world does X11 assume the app and the gpu are on seperate computers?
@@mathman0569 Because X11 is network transparent, that's literally one of its biggest selling points and also the reason why Remote Desktops are horrible in wayland as wayland does not even have the concept of a network
drop X11! drop libadwaita!
Drop Nvidia, drop noobs, drop people who don't know how to properly do a remote X session. 😂
@@AndrewKroll its 2025. wake up!
Yeah, GTK is DEPRECATED since GTK4
All these crazies should switch to rust and away from x11 and we won't have to deal with them anymore
There's always the very light weight tiled wm's written in LISP...
From what i've heard so far wayland is not really suitable for daily driving, atleast for me. I really think we should wait untill wayland gets more reliable.
I've been daily driving Hyprland for some months now, I don't think there's anything in the way there. It works completely fine with Nvidia eGPU even. A lot of work has been done in recent months/years, so it's totally fine, even Ubuntu is using it as a default by now.
i do daily drive it now, but i had nvidia and a old cpu for a long time i know its not ready for everybody, i have a amd gpu and new cpu so i have the best way to use wayland, that being sad, some types i do run about some apps that i would like to run that is x11 only or a feature i wish i had tha xorg had
the only reason i tolerate wayland is because my desktop feel more polished, smooth and i see less graphical artifacts and im not evben talking about vsync, literal artifacts like when you click to maximize a windows you for a frame you see some part of the app behind it, that happens way less on wayland, it gave me the smothness i needed to be confident to show my OS to my friends without getting a weird bug and they bashing it for being Linux, one thing that needs to be fixed is screensharing on discord / electron, because even tho it works with audio most of the times they see a green artifiact, inverted colors and the transmission takes ages to load, problems i didnt have when using x11
@@GabrielM01 xwayland is not going away, so running X11-only applications will always be possible, and in most settings it's a seamless experience
@@beyondcatastrophe_ you didnt get it, there is some apps that dont work in xwayland and in wayland, i mean apps/modules that deal with heavy mods to the way the DE works, all those will never be ported to wayland, im talking real edge stuff not bitching about obs or some other regular gui app
I will use windows before I use current wayland with no remote desktop, GG linux.
Stupidity. Wayland is NOT usable for remote X sessions. It's a FAIL.
just curious, can you tell me what exactly you mean by remote x sessions
They mean X11 Forwarding which frankly is broken for a lot of applications today
And it works perfectly well for a large share of tools. The sunset of X forwarding will kill workflows which have no direct replacement right now, like users running interactive sessions on an HPC server farm. We do not need X11 for that, FWIW and the window content can be rendered with an RDP like protocol into frames managed by the local window server, but there needs to be something where I do not need to run a full remote desktop.
Absolutely abhorrent. My microwave is NOT usable as a griddle. It's a FAIL.
@@christophmuller3511 you can do X forwarding with Xwayland
Redhat/Gnome/GTK developers are malicious, deceptive, spiteful villains. I'm saying that without a hint of sarcasm. No surprise there is a revolving door between them and Microsoft.
@@desktorp And Apple.
Bro think that Linux desktop is some sort of anime with the demons lord 💀
@@cameronbosch1213if corporations are people, then Apple is sociopathic, malignant narcissist. don't even compare them to people doing FOSS work
Ah yes, the villains, lmao!
@ ironic that you're shrugging off villainous conduct while your name is practically "villain"
Emmanuel bussy
Mango
@DryPaperHammerBro mango
Why are Linux users so obsessed with supporting obsolete trash?
It's time to drop X11 and have been for a long time
While I think Wayland is great, it literally _does not work_ on one of my two computers due to Nvidia bs. I won't be able to switch unless I either buy a newer GPU (which I don't want to) or Nouveau finally works properly. So yeah, I need that "obsolete trash".
Other than that, there's the accessibility issue, and some specific workflows just don't have required protocols. Wayland is more finished than it is not, but it still needs some time in the oven.
(Typing this on my second computer with old ass Intel HD Graphics 4000 running Wayland with no issues).
i think anwser is because
imagine calling apps and features that are necessary for people obsolete trash