DON'T Build A Budget Dolby Atmos Mixing Setup BEFORE Watching This!!
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- Опубликовано: 5 июл 2024
- How To Build A Dolby Atmos Mixing Room On A BUDGET
My name is Paul Third and I am a Scottish youtuber / audio engineer / mixing engineer / audio geek. I mostly cover audio engineering related content ranging from audio plugin shootouts / plugin comparisons (acustica audio plugins, universal audio etc etc) to actual analog vs digital / gear vs plugins plugin tests via access analog and mix analog. I even include ddmf plugindoctor tutorials in my plugin reviews so you can be your very own plugin tester and experiment and understand whats actually going on under the hood.
All of my audio blind tests involving music production software are conducted in Presonus studio one 6 which is my main daw and I also use HOFA blind test 4U as my blind test software. In terms of my audio interface I record and monitor through a universal audio apollo x6 through topping dx7 pro+ dac/amp and use an se dynacaster for all of my voice overs. Audient Oria
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📖 CHAPTERS
0:00 intro
0:50 What speaker array should you go for?
4:57 powering a 7.1.4 dolby atmos setup
8:40 Cables, cables, CABLES!!
10:48 The issue with mounting studio speakers
15:15 choosing speaker stands
16:21 Do you need a projector for dolby atmos?
18:19 how do you acoustically treat a dolby atmos room?
21:17 dolby atmos audio interface in relation to a desk
22:58 how to position your dolby atmos sub
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FYI the room is still not finished aesthetically but the practical side is all sorted.
And also before I get the same Internet pedalling comments about Atmos can you please bare in mind that Atmos is an adaptable file format so it can be upscaled from 7.1.4 or folded down to 5.1 or stereo.
If you don't have an atmos setup or headphones (most modern laptops and phones come with it already installed for headphones) then it just plays back normal stereo (and by normal I mean just L+R)
So basically whatever format you listen on you'll get the desired playback for that format.
Love your honesty Paul. youve probably just saved many people a lot of stress....
We'll see haha 😅
This is why Genelec is a great option since they make a very flexible array of wall and ceiling mounts for all of their speakers. And it also helps that Genelec specializes in surround systems.
I've heard a genelec atmos setup and it sounded very nice. However at £12k just for the speakers it's a big expense considering thats 5 grand more (nearly twice the cost) than my entire setup and you've still gotta buy the interface and all the rest.
If you've got the budget then sure it's got a flexible array of mounts but triad orbit with a cheaper speaker setup would still be less expensive.
All the way through this vid I was thinking he’s defo got the Audient Oria 😂😂🤣
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I remember that you had a video where you listed different budget speaker options for dolby atmos. I said that if I was going to do atmos I'd pick the little iloud MTMs. This video makes me feel good about my theoretical decision! Keep hearing good things about producers choice blankets - if I ran into a door or window causing trouble, I'd probably try hanging some of those in front of it. The little excel spreadsheet looks great! Thank god there is always someone taking the time to save everyone else's day with one of these.
Yeah the DART spreadsheet definitely helps a lot
Paul, Why not build a metal tube cage with 4 poles at each corner and connect pipes to each corner stand to form a square. Then you can mount the speakers to the pipes anywhere along where the walls hit the ceilings. Like a lighting rig.
Tbh that would complicate the issue even more. The main issue is how you get the speakers on a mount that allows you to move it vertically and horizontally. That's why triad orbit can charge what they charge as their plates are made custom to screw into the selected speaker which then connects to their mounting system that allows any movement
nice one mate! thanks a lot! why u go with a 7.1.4 setup? read some use 9.1.6 or down to 5.1.4 for atmos. is yours the best in ratio investment / immersive experience. or is there a rule…
The 2 main setups are 7.1.4 and 9.1.6, never heard anybody go with 5.1.4. the most common in the industry is 7.1.4. 9.1.6 seems overkill to me considering dolby reccomend either 7.1.4 or 9.1.6 to get the desired sound of atmos.
Technically people could get "a more detailed immersive sound" from 9.1.6 cause they have more speakers to use in order to pinpoint objects more clearly but it's not gonna give you a more immersive sound due to its adaptability. that's why most I know are 7.1.4
Loved it from the first sentence. I do not, however, expect to see this featured on the ATMOS website anytime soon. Congratulations on completing your karmic marathon, now you make some music. May your atmos system be all you hoped for and more.
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Hey Paul love your videos and can't wait to hear more about this new adventure. I am building my own dolby mix set up and working through the same issues in similar size space. Where can I download this DARDT doc? I cannot find it anywhere. Cheers, Chris
professionalsupport.dolby.com/s/article/The-Home-Entertainment-Dolby-Atmos-Room-Design-Tool-v6-0-0-is-Now-Available?language=en_US
@@PaulThirdThanks Paul. Really appreciate the love. Cheers.
Hi there sir Paul!!! Do you happen to know if the Google's Project Caviar is compatible with the Dolby Atmos setup???
I don't know tbh
thanks for the informative video. I love it.
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I’ve always heard the first pronunciation of orthogonal. Good video Paul, although I can’t see myself ever getting on board with Atmos, as a mixer or listener.
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Shout out to your Dad! Sounds like he was instrumental to the build. :)
Yeah without his wiring and DIY skills mounting the height speakers I would've been a fortune!!
Looking forward to hear about your experiences when mixing in Atmos, if we have any questions we know who to consult, thanks for sharing your journey Paul 👍🏼
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Talking people out of more stress than benefit is a good thing.
The door thing is something I've though about when imagining a room setup... which also leads me to thinking that Atmos is a pain for consumers also.
Something I have always thought about is the translation of Atmos to consumers.
We do not mix songs to be played and really expensive HiFi systems, we mix for things to work of basic stereo systems and we also want mono compatibility for mono Bluetooth speakers.
And in Atmos, what will the majority of consumers be using?
Which comes back to the room arrangement and what is possible in most houses.
Well, most people will have a sound bar, sub and two other multi direction speakers... it's be a 1.1.2 system with the sound bar having all sorts of directional speakers.
Atmos mixes I would think would need to be mixed with that type of system in mind most of all.
I guess you could get a system like this to check things but it would be good if there was a studio monitor version of this sort of system.
A mix might sound amazing in the full array of 7.1.4. or even a simpler 5.1.4... but is it going to translate to these Atmos sound bars?... these sound bars rely on reflections also... another problem... so a studio monitor version would be important that takes this into account.
On the best spot for the sub I heard a good technic the other day that might work, have to try it out.
You out the Sub in your listening spot... the height of your ears and everything.
You then move about the room where you might place it and where it sounds the best, that is where you put it.
That was audio advice... so not sure if that is best for a studio.
I'd have to try it.
Atmos is adaptable and you can check your stereo fold down mix at any time for translation while mixing.
Its adaptable so itll playback on any system whether it be stereo, mono, 7.1.4, 9.2.6, 5.1, sound bars.. Its scalable.
Most will experience atmos binaurally so mixing in an acoustically compromised room doesn't make sense as there's no reflections whatsoever and the binaural engine is trying to recreate the speaker setup which is based on a fully treated room.
The home consumer side of things ie soundbars and stuff will sound different but still give you an immersive affect as its made from the ground up to work mostly with compromised acoustic treated rooms in mind ie up firing speakers instead of ceiling speakers. Each manufacturer will understand the compromises and how their system works with the dolby engine which is playing back audio that has been mixed in an acoustically treated room with directional speakers.
That's what you need to bare in mind that these smaller immersive systems are relying mostly on recreating a 7.1.4 setup so if you mix on that setup then you may have translation issues
Most consumers that buy soundbars, know they are buying a compromised experience. They know they will not get the full experience. It could be argued that in some cases the surround experience due to the layout of the room, is so compromised that they would have been better off buying a stereo system for the same amount. So for the consumer guidance we can argue that it would make sense to inform customers of this. However, Dolby Atmos is compatible with stereo, so that is not something the Atmos mixing engineer has really consider, as they have no influence over what the consumer is convinced to buy.
There are, and have been for many years, people that spend thousands on speakers, but not a single monetary unit on acoustics... even those that spend thousands on cables to their system, without spending a single unit on acoustics. At least most buyers getting soundbars understand that their experience is compromised even if they don't know every exact way that it is.
Regarding placement of the subwoofer, I have heard that as well. But it would be more accurate to say what that might tell you, is that you have areas in the room that needs treament. If you have a treated room, you have to make sure that frequencies actually reaches the listening position. And that there isn't something causing resonances where you have placed the subwoofer. And neither of those issues works perfectly in the other direction, so if your subwoofer is in the listening position, you can't actually tell how it will work the other way around.
The interesting thing with atmos though is how little the LFE channel is actually used. I was speaking to a lot of atmos mixers at an event and they were telling me that sure, placement is important but your sub is hardly used unless it's an explosion or something.
Theoretically there's nothing stopping you sending the L+R to a sub (so 7.4.2) but you'd always need to ensure that anything that makes frequencies like sub 80hz or whatever were sent to front L+R.
Just more things you need to put consideration into.
@@PaulThird It is called LFE (low frequency effect) for a reason. But the decoder of the signal should offload bass to the sub if the channel speakers can't handle it. We can't tell from what direction low end is coming, so you can always mono the low end, and that helps a lot for playback in headphones as well, so I would perhaps say that you should mono the low end (but playing back on multiple speakers can help with room issues, so you should not send the low end to the LFE signal just because it is monoed, and some decoders might ignore the LFE channel if there is no sub, instead of distributing the signal to the front speakers, even if they can handle it).
you don't really need to mount the speaker on the walls OR the ceilings. You can just get a crossbar with a speaker clamp and I also would recommend at the new iso acoustic wall stand to go with it on the clamp.
Few things to watch out with though.
Are you in a position where you can fix a goalpost to the floor?
Do you have enough space in the room for that setup?
How much resonance is the crossbar going to bring to the room?
How do you get the speaker clamps to safely attach to the speakers considering that they need custom rear plates?
If using an iso acoustic wall stand then how much is that adding to the price and how do you fix that to the rear of the speaker?
Can you get the vertical and horizontal angle required for the ceiling speakers? You are gonna need around 45° vertical angle.
Theres a lot of practical things to consider with height speakers
Thx for that video ! it is clearly not worth it to invest in such a system . You provided clear infos on all the hidden costs and technical pain to set up even an " affordable " system . Atmos has been pushed as the " format of the future " for like 8 years now , the push has been harder recently but with extremely limited results ... maybe it needs another 10 years
It's gonna take another 5 years at least till we have some kind of standard for mixing in atmos
You're making me nervous with all that exposed rockwool :(
It'll be covered soon hopefully. Just need a hand to finish it cause I'm rough as fuck
Haha, glad to hear that.
I can’t imagine it’s healthy 😅
haha nice rant... I understand the issues. I do AV installs for a Job, so what you mentioned is what I do without even thinking. Glad you know the stress and what we deal with. Yes Atmos rooms are fun. Try not to worry about the tech stuff. Even the best Atmos rooms are not that great as far as acoustics. No one knows what perfect sound is. So if you are happy and you trust your ears, thats all that matters. Thanks for highlighting the issues....
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OH good job i am very crafty :) lol Great having the height in your room I am bang on the 2.4m with my room :) I used heavy duty 100mm deep acoustic foam which was quite costly :( Didn't want to use rock wool as its messy and you have fibres floating around for months :( Sounds like you have got an Audient Oria :) You Lucky Lucky Lad lol Great video keep the great content coming :)
ORIA came today 😜
@@PaulThird It looks fantastic and exactly what is needed :) I am seriously thinking of changing from My antelope Orion Synergy core to an ORIA. Only thing i am not sure of is sound quality as the Antelope sounds mega :( Look forward to future content from you regarding this :)
It's got the conversion of the id44 mk2 which tbh is as much quality as you are gonna need. When we are talking 126dB dynamic range vs 130dB, it's nothing we are gonna hear in reality. 126dB DR is more than plenty and a THD+N of -104dB (@-1dbfs) is definitely inaudible especially considering with atmos that each speaker is gonna have a lot more headroom than in a stereo setup.
So I just can't see there being any reason why the audient conversion wouldn't stack up.
@@PaulThird Sounds good Paul :) You certainly know the tech side of things way better than me :) I could always run this along side my Antelope using the Orion for extra channels :) I will `reach out to Audent and see who they use for distribution over here in CZ :)
Couldn't you just mount the 4 upper speakers to speaker stands which can go hight up to the ceiling?
Most studio speakers can't be fixed to those stands. They are more for PA speakers which have a big hole the bottom.
Plus remember you need to have like a 40-50° vertical angle so the height speakers are pointing down towards the listening position so they need to be fixed in a way that they can be angled down but the weight is reliably held
@@PaulThird Try typing "Dolby Atmos HS8 audiophile style" in Google and click on Images. Hopefully, you will see the high stands with Yamaha HS8 angled 45 degrees there. I was talking about those.
Have you checked that you done the covering of the window in the appropriate way? There are risks of water-damage and mold and so on. I personally don't know how to cover windows, but I heard in the past that you should never just cover them.
Tbh it's just something I'll check every 6 months or so. Go round the back of the studio and have a look at the windows or take off the fabric and check behind. Ive done it an a way where the fabric is simply panel pinned and behind the projector so it's easy get into and replace rockwool or board it up or whatever
7:48 🔥
Hi Paul,
!!! Caution !!!
You should seriously ask a dry wall builder or acoustician for a proper vapour barrier at your window before you leave it as is !!! 1 winter is enough and you can re-plaster the side-walls of your window and the adjacent areas !!! I did the same mistake long time ago (30 cm Rockwool-> learning by burning) and I will never do it again. Rockwool is made for thermal insulation and it's doing it vey well ;-) The condensing humidity because of the temperature difference is in no time a moulding black mess inside the plaster. Ask somebody !!!!!!!!!!! By the way... How deep did you make your bass-traps left and right the screen? Looks like 10-15 cm on your video... Should be at least 25-30 cm from ground to ceiling to do something serious! (Use Rockwool with low flow resistance when thicker than 15cm - important! Ask somebody for that!)
I'll do it next week. Just get a roll of vapour barrier and stick it around the inside. Probably a half hour job
You can flip the hinges on the door so it opens OUT instead of IN. Problem solved with minimum effort.
Depends on the frame. Lots of internal uk door frames won't let you flip the hinges. Would need to reverse the entire frame
The studio has metal frames with metal scotia's around every door that physically block the door from opening the other way. Would need a complete rip out. Plus would also mean that there's a speaker in your way as soon as you open the door. It would be a constant pain in the arse and more chance of knocking it over as you'd have to squeeze past it to get in and out
Nope.jpeg
Atmos for cinema makes perfect sense. Atmos for having the x factor and getting mixing work as an early adapter also makes perfect sense. For music though where most people listen to music on their smart phone's headphones, why? Aren't you against the corporate machine forcing this onto consumers while the headphone atmos experience is hardly if at all audible apart from stereo imaging, room fx and eq which can be done in a stereo mix as well?
I'm a music lover so I want to enhance the experience. For example, exactly last week I had a client in checking out the studio. Big music lover, had a band in the 80s, very firm on stereo and walked in "knowing he was gonna hate it cause it's a gimmick"
Spent 45 minutes listening to my atmos playlist on apple music and said that he's never been as excited about music in decades. Ended up wanting me to do the entire project in atmos. Not because its cool, but because of how much it made sense and how it made him feel. I let him hear what I class as bad atmos and what I deem as "proper atmos" so he could hear my vision of where it's going and how I expect it to sound.
Then I let him hear my specific headphone setup for emulating my room and at that moment he knew it was the future.
I know it's inevitable now cause it just about the headphone tech keeping up. Apple have already done it with air pod pro and max which are the biggest selling buds and phones now. They are everywhere and it's only gonna continue to develop to become more realistic.
Last year in LA people were debating whether the atmos stereo fold down was better than the actual stereo mix. Today, the fold down algorithm is that good that many mixers are mixing fully in atmos and giving their client that as the stereo mix cause the file will fold down to whatever speaker setup.
The more you get into the world the more it starts to make such logical sense.
No loudness wars because everything has to be -18 lufs. There's no master bus so we finally have all the dynamic range to play with and no compromise with limiting. This also means that the stereo mixes are unlimited and theoretically streaming services wouldn't need loudness algorithms.
So by pushing atmos into the world we can preserve the quality of new records and also resurrect the quality from overly squashed remasters.
We allow the artist to be more creative and make music fun again. You are in a confined box in stereo where in atmos you can produce to your hearts content as there are no limits.
You just need to get into that world and you realise the bigger picture. If atmos always sounded shit then yeah I'd get it but when you hear an amazing atmos mix the stereo will never compare but the beauty is that with the atmos fold down you never lose stereo
@@PaulThird Thanks for your thorough reply, Paul. I must say you make some very valid points like, "No loudness wars because everything has to be -18 lufs", "the beauty is that with the atmos fold down you never lose stereo". I will think long and hard about this. My biggest disdain is probably with Apple and their bullying-for-profit mentality but if I can get over that in some way, I might start mixing in atmos. The Dolby Atmos headphone demos are also not convincing (above, behind NOT!) by a long stretch. All that said I honestly like the stereo imaging of atmos since it will be easier to separate instruments and voices in the mix. If mixing in atmos can create amazing stereo mixes that blows my clients away that would be a good enough reason for adapting the technology in my opinion. If I start mixing in atmos I'll do it on headphones though since this is the way the large majority of listeners will hear the music.
Is your secret audio interface Audient ORIA? :)
Easy guess haha
install the speaker onto the door
I ended up not having to consider that thankfully....
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Can my stands be milk crates?
As long as your speakers are milk bottles
This just sounds like a fire hazard
If you are mucking about with tons of extensions then yeah possibly
Everything in your house is a potential fire hazard, especially if you have back-stab outlets.
I just wanna know how and why pros think the average joe will invest in this to listen to Atmos people are following the industry so much that they have you people doing the most stupidest shyte I have ever seen good luck though🤣🤣
The consumer wouldn't need to do all of this. A home Atmos consumer system is no more difficult than a home cinema setup, and most people will be happy with the half-baked experience of Atmos-compatible earbuds. I'm not touching this for production or personal listening, but there are plenty of people who will.
@joechapman8208 I'm pretty sure people said the same about going to stereo from mono lol
Oh it's a DJ explains a lot lol hahahaha
Atmos is an adaptable file format so it can be upscaled from 7.1.4 or folded down to 5.1 or stereo.
If you don't have an atmos setup or headphones (most modern laptops and phones come with it already installed for headphones) then it just plays back normal stereo.
Why have one fixed file when you can have an adaptable one?
@Notinserviceij Ohh its biacth that explains allot you low level waste, and stereo and mono has nothing to do with purchasing 7 speakers to listen music and I'm not a DJ cuck I'm an engineer and a producer lame azz punching bag. And plus you fly planes you are a nobody were is your content biatch azz 😆 🤣
I believe the whole thing is dead in the water before it's even begun. 85% of people consume music on earbuds/headphones, who even has a Hi-fi, CD player at home these days?, and as for movies the cinemas are closing because Holywood can't make a decent movie any more without woke ideology rammed down your throat turning millions of viewers off, same goes for the streaming services, Netflix is dying. So who would need such an elaborate, expensive audio system? They claim it's the NEXT big thing, but they told us all to get a wide screen TV and yet 65% of TV isn't in widescreen or in superwide meaning you STILL have black bars top and bottom!!!
You are missing the big picture though
Atmos is an adaptable file format so it can be upscaled from 7.1.4 to 9.2.6 or folded down to 5.1 or stereo.
If you don't have an atmos setup or headphones (most modern laptops and phones come with it already installed for headphones) then it just plays back normal stereo.
Why have one fixed file when you can have an adaptable one?
I was at an event on Tuesday and the stats were pretty conclusive that it's imbedded in the industry.
If I recall around 95% of today's billboard hits are also available in atmos which means that we have a stereo downfold unaffected by the loudness wars as it must output -18 lufs, which means that currently we have an option of essentially full dynamic range.
Most modern Netflix releases are dolby enabled and everyone I know personally still watches it. Music is now being made in atmos for films. I know this as I was speaking to a couple who make music and sound fx specifically for film.
Rumours are that Spotify are on the verge of accepting its atmos fate.
Fuck even audible is atmos enabled now. I don't personally get that one though.
Its the adaptability of atmos that makes it appealing to a lot of manufacturers, and tbh kinda makes a lot of sense having a system that can playback multiple formats
@@PaulThird Yes buddy I get it of course the whole corporate industry is on board with it, they need to find a way to re-package, re-brand their massive back catalogue of music and film that nobodies purchasing any more. But the real question is; Is the end user, the consumer, onboard. A collapsing down to stereo, 5.1 that most people have will not drive them to spend thousands replacing equipment, TV's, sound bars, computers, just to hear a few more extra surround FX. If it's backward compatible, then what's the point? It will most likely go the same way Bluray, 4K went, only in demand by audiophiles. At a time when it's heat or eat, who will have thousands to spend for audio FX? I'm not arguing with you buddy, just at consumer end, things are quite different. Best wishes
@@SteveSalterszo Atmos adopts to the available playback system. The same file can be played on a system with 32 channels (although I think music software is limited to 9.1.6 at this moment) as well as a stereo system, or binaural with headphones, and anything in between. So for those consumers that can spend on speakers, they will have a more precise positioning, and those that have smaller setups will get a mix that best adopts to their playback system. So it allows for more flexibility on the consumer end. Several of video streamings services offers Dolby Atmos over Dolby Digital Plus, which isn't as high bandwidth as Atmos over Dolby True HD that you find on BluRay and UltraHD BluRay. 4K video is important as the standard size of TV increase, as well as VR/AR goggles enter the market. At this point, there are however scenarios where the bandwidth limit may actually benefit a 1080p stream, that is upscaled in the playback device compared to a 4K stream on the same bandwidth.
Atmos is both about the added immersion, if you have the speakers for it, and about how the format adopts do different playback systems.
It is unfortunate that Atmos does not have the dialogue lift of DTS:X, but even then it wasn't mandatory.
And Atmos for headphones is an afterthought, and what we really needed in the music industry was a format that was headphone first, as that is how most people enjoy music, but with the ability to adopt to other playback systems.
The reason movies aren't doing to well has nothing to do with the politics. It has to do with the quality of films, and the high prices for tickets and streaming services. The VFX teams are underpaid, overworked, and don't get enough time to do a quality job. The franchise-isation, means that movies can't be independent works, but always has to relate to other storylines or to merchandise. The amount spent on marketing doesn't pay off, and only eats in to either the budget of the actual movie or the margins.
If you think the reason that people are being turned off from Hollywood movies is "woke ideology" then your opinion is worth less than nothing. If that were the case how do you explain the Barbie movie, which countless people cried about being "woke", being the 14th highest grossing movie of all time?
@@sburton84I’m pretty tired of woke agenda being forced into films myself - its not good for the art. I enjoyed the Barbie movie tho. But thats because it was appropriate and because it was implemented well. Take a look at what Marvel is doing instead…
That discussion took a turn 😅
ONLY"" 8500 US Dollars"" - LOL!...
Tbh very cheap considering that it's way cheaper than an analog rig. That's not what I paid for it but that's how much it would cost a punter off the street.
That setup cost me just under £3000.
Manley massive passive is over 5 grand alone, eqp1a is around 5 grand.. For a mono unit 👀
Even just a vocal chain of 1073, U87 AI & Cl1B is more expensive.
So considering my setup is 12 powered speakers Inc mounts & stands, 16 channel interface, calibration, room treatment and a projector.. Pretty damn good money in the audio world.
Ed's 500 series chain cost a hell of a lot more than my entire atmos setup.
Actually even just his stereo setup with the PSI's and trinnov were a lot more expensive
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