Serving royal marine here and the Francis barker is an exceptional piece of kit, a real joy to use. Solid, accurate and easy to read which Makes resections so much easier and helps in gaining points on map reading tests😉 after using one for the first time and finding out the price, i understood why they have to be handed back in after an exercise.
Used the Cammenga as an infantry officer in the U. S. Army. Never had a problem with it. Purchased the tritium model directly from Cammenga for trekking and hunting. Love it!
Really enjoy your videos Your narration is fun While I have used a Silva Ranger for all of my 45 yr career as a forester, it's interesting to learn about the lensatic types Don't think I will spring for that English model but it sure is a cool compass. Mother of pearl, how neat is that!
Hi Sam, thanks for joining the conversation. The Silva Ranger is a very good compass. I have a few of these which I use on my courses where participants can try out various compasses.
Another vote for the Ranger, especially the older ones. Although I have a soft spot in my heart for the Cammenga after 26 years in the Army. Great review. Thanks.
Well you learn something every day after 24yrs in the army & using the term, Prismatic Compass I’ve just found out it was an M73 all along 😱 A brass bodied extremely well made tough & accurate compass & it wasn’t surprising to have one issued that was decades old, they are marked in mils for greater accuracy, they came with a thin rope lanyard, that fitted in a barrel hitch through the thumb ring & a square webbing pouch, padded inside & a drain hole in the bottom. We very rarely used it with a map for planning routes, we’d use a Silva compass or usually a protractor on the map & the note the bearings down to transfer to the compass when required. We did use it for taking very accurate bearings, to say call in fire onto enemy positions etc or planning accurate arcs for fire. Now if you wanted to accurately find your location & you can identify two references points the ground ahead of you, that you can also identify on your map, take a bearing to each of those points, with a little maths to work out the back bearing you will pin point your position. Now the Silva compass we pretty much used for planning all multi legged navigation routes, day or night, particularly for night patrols, using the compass flat on the map, noting the bearings between checkpoints & importantly the distances for each of those legs, essential if you have bad visibility such as fog. You could take bearings with it looking over the top but not with any realaccuracy. Both invaluable navigation aids & I still use a Silva today for all my mountain trips
Mil radians are no more accurate than degrees, especially if essentially your using an identical compass. The only difference is the mother of pearl card markings. All compasses have an individual compasses error of typically 1.3⁰ plus a typical user error of 1.7⁰. This is cancelled out mostly by 'handrailing' as you travel, checking features along the way where possible. (MAPRIC graduate)
Greetings from Alabama, USA! I was very interested to learn about the British compass. I am familiar with the US and Silva compass, so the comparison is fascinating. For regular use, the Silva is most practical due to lightness and the lack of need to shoot precise azimuths. Thank you for going to the effort to produce this video!
I think these 'what's the best' articles should always be prefaced with the fact that, except in featureless terrain, ANY compass that is accurate and consistently readable to within four degrees of magnetic north is perfectly acceptable for land navigation (on foot), providing one knows how to correctly adjust for declination. In land navigation, one always travels landmark to landmark in short legs.
I’m a surveyor and amateur geologist. My girlfriend bought me a Brenton F-5010 compass (Transit) many years ago. I almost scratched the leather carrying case once and haven’t used it beyond my garden gate since. I use the M-73 and a digital 9” level.
Hello. Thanks very much for a very interesting appraisal of the three common types of compass. I have experience of the British M-73 Prismatic Compass and the Silva Compass. I first used a Prismatic back in 1962, when I joined my School's Army Cadet Force - which was in Degrees - and again from 1969, when I joined the Army; which was NATO Mils. One thing I can say about the Prismatic, is that the Leather Cases that they came in back then, were of a different design to the one you have. The top was connected to the back of the case - not the side - and fully covered the body of the case. In addition, there were Canvas pouches from the British Army 1939 Pattern Webbing, which also were one piece, which completely covered the opening and kept the rain out. They had a Brass Eyelet at the bottom of the pouch. After I left the Army, I got into hiking and camping and bought a Silva, but never really got on with it, so in 1979, I bought my own Prismatic; which cost me £79. That was in Degrees, as the Mils Compass cost £95. I never could get an answer as to why the difference, but came to the conclusion it was a con-job; ripping off people who knew the difference between the two standards. Some years ago, it disappeared from my kit and I never saw it again, but by then, health issues meant I was no longer in a position to use it. I just hope the person who stole it, put it to good use, but by then, the luminous bits needed a torch to 'charge' them up at night, but even then, they were only usable for about 5 minutes. Russ. Portsmouth.
@@christhirion9474 As much as anything else, a more granular unit helps with mental arithmetic under time pressure/other stresses, so when you need to work out where you are and where something is relative to that, more precision while staying in whole numbers generally results in fewer errors. A lot easier these days when you can just send the gunners the GPS location of the drone that's got the enemy spotted and then call the fall of shot from there.
I got this email from Cammenga this morning... Thank you for reaching out to Cammenga. Yes, we offer a Tritium Refresh Service for $50, including shipping the compass back to an address within the United States. Please send us a photo of the ink stamping on the inside cover, as well as a photo of the compass laying flat, from both sides. This will help us to determine if the model you have is serviceable.
Nice video. As you said at the beginning of the video. The best compass is the one that works for the purpose you need it for. For most people I suspect it is the Silva. I used a Glausser (similar to the M73) extensively for mapping seismic lines in the mid 1970s. It is an excellent compass in every sense for professional use but I doubt that many casual users would have the need for that level of accuracy , and the extra weight is a negative.
I was in the US Army artillery and we always used the M2 compass for anything important (e.g., checking the lay of a battery, forward observer calling fire). I'm not sure if the other types were made by Cammenga, but the design was the same. In any event, I was shocked that the Cammenga was spot on for the true north test. Maybe just because they were abused over decades, most of the regular compasses we had were not great. The M2s were typically babied a bit more and I usually found them to be of very high quality.
The M2 is a great compass, but a pain in the ass to use on the march. Their ability to site a crest or masking angle and adjust declination are what sets it apart for me. The Cammenga is a breeze to use and fast. None of this "black arrow or white arrow" crap...... haha!
I really enjoy your videos. As a field archaeologist for over 40+ years I used a Silva Mirror Ranger. Even back in the pre GPS days, my crews using the same models and I discovered there was ,5 to 1 or even 2 degree variation between them.
I thoroughly enjoyed that little swarry into the world of the compass. I don't use my compass very much these days but there was a time I did, and what I used was the Silva. For walkers, and orienteering It's the only one for me. I've got to say though that I have lost a couple over the years while out on a ramble and I'm sure if it was a more weighty model I would have noticed it's disappearance sooner.
And then, of course, you can also use a really useful compass that covers everything and is robust enough. It's called the BREITHAUPT CONAT 4. It can be used to take bearings, and thanks to a transparent compass box with a few lines and a ruler, it's also great for working on the map. Naturally, with a choice of 64 or 360 divisions. Not to forget, the compass box, which fits CONAT 2, 3, 4, is available as a spare part, as is the leather pouch. So it's something you can use for a long time. You just have to get used to the fact that the chic olive green has now turned into plain black. The only disadvantage is that with shipping it costs just under 300 euros, and you have to be careful, some sellers include the leather bag and some want extra money for it.
The Cammenga (officially the US M1950) is sealed against water intrusion, but is NOT airtight like the M-73. This means that the interior of the capsule can fog over with severe humidity changes i.e. jungle regions. The older the compass, the more pronounced the effect, as the interior rubber gasket ages.
It's not a question of national expertise in engineering, but a simple question of cost. The US Army is six times larger than the British Army and issuing a $500 compass isn't practical or justified. It's the reason why most British infantry use a $20 Silva baseplate compass instead of the M-73.
US military compasses built before 1992 were mostly Stocker & Yale and I honestly think the build quality was much better than the newer Cammenga. The tritium will be worn out in them but for daytime use they are still great. I got a new 3H Cammenga which has a very sticky bezel ring and needed adjustment to the locking device before the North arrow could pivot freely every time.
When I was in the Australian Army in the 80's, we only used the M73 Francis Barker, I understand that these were first issued for use during the Korean war in 1950. Australia is a funny country though, we were still using Bren Guns in the 80's, which were first used during WW2. All of the field rations that we were issued back then had been made for the Vietnam war.
The mirror type sighting compasses by Silva and Suunto are worthy of consideration as they have the simplicity and ease of map usage of the baseplate types with simple, accurate sighting. Tritium illumination is great until it "wears out" which it does after a few years. Modern Luminova paint needs to be recharged but lasts quite well and can be "recharged" with a micro LED lamp in your pocket without distroying your night vision. An Ultra-Violet LED micro lamp would do the job very well in theory too but I have yet to find one.
I have purchased two Cammenga compasses thru Amazon and both had defects. I think sometimes you just get what someone else has returned. I have now ordered one directly from the factory and have high hopes that it will be up to par. I think the Francis Barker compass is very cool indeed!
If only Cammenga comes with two more modifications, it would have been glorious 1. providing choices to choose prismatic or optical sighting system than lens 2. Instead of 3 degree bezel, bezel that supports 1degree error. Each of the UK and US products holds different value. Cammenga's M1950 model is a very robust and reliable device, still easy to use.(and relatively cheap for its value) Francis Barker's M73 and M88 are high-end pieces of intricate machinary with great accuracy and make for great collector items. Both types already have achieved status of modern classics, still available with Brunton Pocket Transit(from 1894.. an absolute granny at this point). A shame that German K&R Meridian prismatic or optical compasses seems to have completely disappeared from market in recent years. Their utility is only now implied by chinese knockoffs having the same effective design with more affordable, but cheaper quality.
My first compass was a surplus US military Brunton Artillery spotter's compass in mils. Later I was issued a Silva Ranger while working the USFS. Once I had my college degree I bought a Brunton, and later the Brunton Geo, both pocket transits and surveys conducted with them could be called "surveys" without quibbling from lawyers. I have a Cammenga, but don't really get along with it.
Cartography and Geology nerd here, and I don't go out without my Bruntons - a TruArc for navigation and Pocket Transit for Geo mapping, surveying and sectioning. I also have a K&E Alidade, but that's just for fun around home.
@@Panicagq2 I've found my Brunton PT good for both navigation and mapping. As part of the job, we often had to cover compass transects over varying terrain and vegetation cover, and the Brunton PC works at least as good as any baseplate compass. To me, the main handicap is that they are bulkier. I taught a colleague how to locate themselves on a USGS topo map using a Brunton. It's arguably a little harder than using a baseplate model. I have a K&E Transit myself, that usually stays home,
@@theeddorian Oh yeah, you can navigate w/a Brunton too, but baseplates are just easier going from map to reality and lighter to boot. Also, I won't cry if I lose a hiking compass lol
@@Panicagq2 That's all true. In my work that +/- 0.5 degree, vs +/-2 degrees was important. You can navigate decently with a Silva Ranger, but when the client wants an "accurate" map, the half-a-degree can become an issue.
You should look at the Suunto MC-2 instead of the Silva Compass. I have the MC-2 NH because I live in Canada but they have different versions of the MC-2 one of which is the MC-2 Global which can be used in both hemispheres. They also have adjustable Declination Adjustment tool. It also has a mirror which meets the other two compasses uses. It’s extremely sturdy and super easy to use. If you do get one and do a comparison with it I would love to know the accuracy of the MC-2. Any who great episode and thank you for sharing your views with us.
Hi Mark, thanks for joining the conversation. The Suunto MC-2 is a good compass. I have one, as you'll see in some of my other videos. I didn't use it in this video because as far as I know (I may be wrong about this) it's not the officially issued compass of any major military. The Silva 4 is and that’s why I included it.
Ex British Army Artillery Observer (2006-2016) We had digital sighting systems, but everyone trains with the prismatic you have there for getting a direction to target
Fun video, I learned some important attributes for these compasses that i can share with hikers I meet. Hiking trail direction, alignment, grade, and angles on the bench and berm are my biggest concerns as we build and repair trails, my 40-year old Silva Ranger still does the job. But one of my trail buddies uses a Cammenga from his Vietnam days as a Marine. He has mentioned that i need to for a little weightlifting before I'm ready to haul the Cammenga 😅
17:35 Doctrinally, the clicks on the Cammenga are only used at night, under light discipline. It can be set for any barring. (Yes, I own all three.) Nice talk.
I'm sitting here with my 3H just for laughs trying to get it to set between clicks. Good luck with that. lol . It is a beautiful compass though, don't leave home without it.
Hello sir, I love your channel! Thank you for sharing your skill! The gasket on my Cammenga 3H bezel is funky as well. 2/3 of it seems lower than the other 1/3. I purchased it in January of 2022 - I think that’s weird for a military compass.
I'm also a great fan of the Silva Expedition 4 and the various Ranger models. I've used the Cammenga and the german Breithaupt Conat military model at the artillery, and the Breithaupt won in my experience as a military compass. Unfortunately the WilKi Meridian lensatic and prismatic compasses are no longer manufactured, but you can get a bunch of cheap chinese copies currently. The WilKi (Wilhelm Kienzle) was the first compass with a thermoelastic capsule and this material and the dampening fluid were a company secret. They ended with the production.
I have been thinking of getting a Cammenga compass due to the fact that it's not fluid filled. I've damaged two Silva compasses by leaving them in my truck during the winter.
UK is the ultimate in precision can be used for everything usually referred to as an Artillery Compass. The Camenaga is mid quality not oil damped the most inaccurate and difficult to use because the needle won't steady EVER. The Silva can't be sighted for better accuracy is oil damped and steadies the needle well for the average person the Silva is more than good enough for Map reading trekking etc light and has plenty of features. The other 2 both require the use of various protractors. The usual damping media is I'm told White Kerosene often referred to as oil filled. All compass are designated Northern or Southern hemisphere to compensate for magnetic dip as the compass needle drops either can be used within reasonable distance of the equator but not in lower latitudes. For the Average person the Silva is the way to go. The Aussie military uses the Artillery compass in Mils for accuracy and a plastic compass for day to day use.
When serving we used the prismatic (FB) more than most may think, once used to it there's no problem with maps; fine for general use & easy to set up for any new destination, always spot-on. But... if only because of its straight edge & transparency, I had a Suunto or Silva as my everyday choice - also more comfortable because flatter in a chest pocket.
! bought a YCM (Japanese made) lensatic compass back in 1970, with plastic casing, and it is labelled 'Engineer Lensatic Compass'. My new Brunton type 15 plate compass, bought 6 years ago( made in the USA), and that YCM both agree north is north. Yesterday, I bought a cheep knock-off of the Engineer lensatic compass, which looks very much like the YCM, but made in China. The compass points 60 mils to the west for north, but, the mils read at 20 mils for the cheap Chinese, while the Japanese YCM reads at 40 mil increments. We really need to calibrate these cheaply made compasses. They are cheap, because they are cheap. I scotch taped the Chinese compass bezel with the glow in the dark line to 60 mil to the left of north, and need to read it as such, from the deviated line.
The main difference are the units used, military compassese uses MILs, 6400 per rotation,. CIvilain compases use the far more familiar degrees, 360 per rotation,. Outside of the military, using MILS is confusing and means nothing to most people, so beware which version you buy. The Silva and Francis Baker compasses shown both use degrees, the Cammenga in MILs.. Francis Baker make them in MILS for the military , I have a Silva 54 prismatic in degrees and a silva 4 (I think) in MILS. It also would have been useful to show the effect of nearby ferrous metals - are any of the compases more or less effected, that's caught me out a few times.
I watched a programme about the making of the Francis Barker a few years ago. Used to replace a lot of the parts on them when serving in the British Army many years ago. Never used one in the field as I bought a Silva compass. Lighter and not as bulky to carry and didn't have the worry of breaking and paying for the FB should the powers that be decide it was my fault.
Very informative thanks. Disappointing to read that you think the Silva Expedition 4 is the best of its type. I returned one recently as the north end of the needle was dipping badly when the baseplate was level and decided to give the Suunto M3 NH a try, based on the belief its still made in Finland. Annoying that the romer is missing but it seems you can't have it all!? Thanks for sharing your knowledge in these videos.
You may have purchased a compass that was balanced for a different geograpical zone. You can't really escape quality control issues with any brand of compass these days. Silva is made in China, yes, but Suunto workers report layoffs with unrealistic production goals imposed on the remaining workforce, which could slso affect quality.
ive used the Malaysian military compass back in the 80s and 90s … essentially they were Francis Bakers. heavy for its size and cost more than what i earned a month back in the days ha ha … bought myself a Suunto MC2 mirror compass then for my own use primarily for finding direction of Mecca when i travel around in-country … used it once to find some bore holes prospecting for kaolin deep in some oil palm plantation and back track to the original point … still with me today but it has since lost all its glow in the dark thingy and a lot more scratches … and nowadays i just use my iPhone but still carry the Suunto whenever i go deep in the jungle …
Silva is probably meant for the orienteering: running with a maps and compass. At least partially, that's what we've done with those. Thus the lanyard. You're not meant to put it on you neck. You're meant to hold it in hand with your map. And it you're orienteering at night -- you has your headlight on anyways.
I use the Sharky Shadow compass on my phone. Operation: I point an arrow on my phone at the shark. Then I tap an arrow on my phone in the direction of my shadow and immediately get a readout of the azimuth to the shark (from True North) Then I guess distance to shark and calculate it's GPS coordinates. Then I navigate to that spot digitally if I wanted to. No need to walk straight along a bearing. Infact, I can walk backwards around the continent and still reach the sharks location from the other side (theoretically). I can even see the location on a map without internet and without a SIM card, provided I played with the app that displays the map before disconnecting from internet. The map then appears to be cached in memory. I use GPX VIEWER to view route between observer marker and shark marker. For my location i can get GPS from satellite or by using fake GPS location (for more accuracy) My phone has no magnetometer, no gyroscope. It is the Nokia C1 (second edition). It is my cheapy Android street walking phone.
The Francis Barker M-73 Liquid Prismatic Compass is used by mortar fire controllers(MFC) to bring in mortar fire on to targets. The mortar section commander uses the m73 to setup gun lines. Now gps and other modern equipment is used today but technology has a habit of failing. So they are still carried today. No other compass will give you the accuracy and robustness of the m73. I would say unless you are a MFC a Sliva should do fine job.
US Marines, and I assume Army too, use the M2 compass for the same purpose. The M2 is essentially a military, graduated in mils and green finish, version of the Brunton Pocket Transit. I could do very accurate triangulation and gun placement using the M2 when I was the 81mm platoon FDC.
I find UK models more accurate in pointing direction. the US models only point to McD, KFC, Dunkin, Chick Fillet etc. etc. The US models don't have minute marks either. If you go from McD to KFC it shows calorie adage or subtraction which we all know Americans cannot calculate. So in essence it is flawed in that way.
The fans in the stands for Premier League football are evidence that the UK compass only points to McDs and KFC, too. Calculating caloric intake of Yorkshire pudding is built-in to the compass, but obscured to the user.
I have the same Bosch laser measure tool. It’s quite smart! It gives angles and can give the volume of a room and can measure the height of a wall, and if you mount it on a tripod. Can give some pretty accurate measurements. Really, it’s a level but tells you if you’re at a 90 degree angle and if a wall is plum. It’s accurate to less than a 16th or 2.54 cm I think the conversion is correct. It’s a great tool, and I think they have an app for it now so that you can record measurements and send them to people. I don’t know much about that though
Not having used the Cammenga, I'm not qualified to say much about it. However, having spent 14 years in the British Army, I have used the M73 extensively and having been involved in Scouting for a good many years, I also have much experience of the Silva. Of those two, I would stake my life on the M73 but used in concert they are invaluable.
You could always take a punch tool and hammer and make a weep hole in the bottom of the Francis Barker pouch, unless the top flap is made to shed the water away
Ha Ha now THAT is another video - think sun, time of day, Lat & Long, etc. I may do this video when I have got through the LONG list I already have on my to "to do" list
I believe the lanyard on the Silva goes around your neck. But it’s not as good as they used to be Made. I would go with a different brand of orienteering compass than using the Silva. I still have the lensatic compassI used in Desert Storm. I still use it for navigation. It doesn’t have the tritium. The Army used both wit and without. But, if I could I would get one of those British M73 compasses. I like the fact you can read a 1/4 degree from it. Makes a difference doing a resection with it or triangulating your position from two or more known points.
I've lost track of how many hours I spent with the British prismatic compass back when I was in the army. Yes you can use them with a map with no difficulty and the military take great pains to make sure you an do it. I never realised they were that expensive. I can understand why the army got rather upset with you if you lost one, luckily I never did.
@@TheMapReadingCompany I am extremely disappointed in them. I would send a link to the video to the compny. Yes it works, but in your enviroment I expect to fog at some point and it's not a cheap knock off.
Nice. Thank you. Have used, many times, the USGI compass, Cammenga, and they are simply bullet proof, have amazing temperature variation workability, as well....--50 degrees F to over 150 degrees F. Very important test on all three compasses....especially for desert hiking or mountaineering, winter hikes.. Do You know working temperature limits for the UK compass? Also... we've never seen a compromised seal on a Cammenga! crazy...thank you again!
According to the manufacturers website the operating temperature of the M73 is 55°C (131°F) down to -30°C (-22°F) www.pyseroptics.com/_files/ugd/309901_d07a34649674436bbdf628d61d0d708f.pdf
Silva expedition 54 is better than the 4, as it has a prismatic sight and is marked to 1/2 degree. 2 or 3 timesore expensive, if you can find one. The one i have has a lens on one side of the bezel and the prism inside the compass, so it looks like a nomal base plate compass and can be used as such if you want.
Not completely. The Silva 54 and other hybrid compasses that have both a baseplate and a prismatic sighting system all use a magnetized card instead of a boxed needle, which blocks any view of the bottom of the compass and makes it difficult to use the compass as a simple protractor to measure true course headings from a map (one of the key benefits of a baseplate compass).
Hi@@user-sp9wr5rf4c Not all. I got my compass 40 years ago, so maybe the models have changed. On mine the needle is attached to an engraved aluminium ring that has the markings you see in the prism. So you can see through to the base plate. The big advantage is that you look through the sighting and you see a reflection of the markings in the ring at the same time as thing you are taking a bearing on. Because the prism is small and close to the ring, there is little parallax when reading. The needle is on a sapphire jewelled pivot
@@mikeclarke2638 Wow mike, you've got a real collector's item. The Silver 54 produced from the 1990s to a few years ago uses a magnetized card. I have one from 1999 and like it a lot, but I carry a protractor when i use it with a map.
Used mainly the prismatic compass (british) and the Silva. The Silva is not soldier proof. It is very easy to scratch and scratch badly. The prismatic is almost indestructible. Personally only used mils. You mean with the line on the wood, you are demonstrating magnetic north? The prismatic looks and feels solid? Easy to use while on the march, you can almost guarantee a soldier will have difficulty damaging it. Picking a compass because of a lanyard? With the prismatic you use the thumb attachment.
17:46 That's not how lume is supposed to be used. The way you use it is you get out your flashlight, you close your eyes and look away, you shine it on your compass for a second or two which charges the lume, you turn off the light and then you can use your compass without losing your night sight. But I agree tritium is far more useful, but also far more expensive.
Hi, thanks for joining the conversation. Yes you're right there are many type of compasses, but this video was specifically about military compasses which is why it featured the M73 and H3. I added the Expedition 4 as some militaries use base plates.
Great video. Nothing really to argue about here, just some personal opinions and comments: Tritium is great, but the civilian version Cammenga and other compasses with phosphorescent paint can be "charged" with a short burst from a flashlight(torch to UK folks) and glows very bright and easy to read for several minutes. Much brighter than tritium. This can be a huge bonus. Which north? Grid north, true north, or magnetic north? If your declination angle is 0.24, shouldn't the compasses have been off by a quarter degree in reading? Or was your line magnetic north? The Francis Barker is a fine instrument. The Cammenga is a tool. The Silva is a toy. But all will tell you where mag north is just fine. Unless you're calling in danger close artillery fire, they are just fine for land navigation with a map. All of them have their advantages and disadvantages. The toy is great for it's transparency alone. The Cammenga for it's ergonimics, ease and speed in use. The FB is a fine instrument that's frankly overkill for land navigation. Training on how to navigate is much more important than having a hyper accurate instrument. If you ARE calling in artillery fire, there are better tools for that today. I wish you'd have included a US M2 compass. It has some really cool features like vertical angle measurement. Not a great land nav tool though, imo. But much tighter tolerances and higher quality of construction.
The whole movie long i was looking for how long your table will stay upright. Lucky it didn’t happen. Sorry for the fun. Nice and interesting comparison of those compasses. I made my choice for the baseplate. The Francis Barker is much too expensive and has no straight edge. The Cammenga? I don't know what to think about. Those 3° steps are a little too much. In general, i saw your video of that Cammenga and another similar compass and i am sorry but (i don't’ know why) i stil don’t understand how they work. With other compasses, no problem i am enough equipped of them. No idee why i don’t understand the working of the Cammenga, in principe it is the same as other compasses. I am thinking about to order me one of those cheap (-15€) variants of it. The accuracy isn't important, therefore i have my Original Bezard and my Suunto MC-2. It's just to understand the working of it.
I did about ten years of Mountain Bike Orienteering, and had that Silva around my neck ( with a whistle and magnifying lens,) all that time. I think I only used it once, at a five way crossroads, during all the hundreds of events that I did. Most time a quick look at where the sun was, was adequate enough. One thing that it was good for was plotting NGRs, which I don't think the other two would do.
My Silva Expedition 4 was total junk. Needle was out of balance, and yes, it was made for the MN zone (where I am located). I threw it in the trash the day it arrived. Not worth my time to return it. The Stocker and Yale (similar to Cammenga) worked fine for me when I was in the military, so that is the direction I'm leaning towards, at the moment.
@@TheMapReadingCompany Yeah, I was in the US Navy back in the 1980's. I don't think Cammenga came around until the early 1990's (but I could be wrong about that). I'm currently using a Brunton mirror compass. I got turned onto the Brunton, because I majored in Geology in college, and used a Brunton transit/compass quite a bit. It's unfortunate that the Silva turned out to be a dud. I was hoping for better. The South end of the needle was nearly dragging against the compass housing when it was level. Just venting a little, I guess.
This m73 pouch is a civilian gimmick really, but you would have to be in some pretty damn consistently torrential rain for the pouch to fill up, even then it would make absolutely no difference to the compass. The military pouch would be of a canvas or cordura variety, with a drain hole. Almost every m73 I have ever encountered, and it's in the hundreds, has had,where fitted, a lanyard fitted to the thumb ring, whether they have been of sufficient length is subjective to the user. As to accuracy, although I can't see clearly on this version, the m73 has degrees and, the far more accurate, mils on the dial, though I concede the mils isn't something the average walker would need to use.
Yeh I’m with you there, the thin rope lanyard barrel hitched onto the thumb ring & when I was into army the pouch was made of a webbing material, padded inside & again with a drain hole.
The Cammenga looks faulty in that it was so "wobbly" when you moved it just a small amount. I wouldn't pay £1 for a compass that did that. I purchased a Huntington premium oil damped compass DC47-T2 a few years ago for £14, a great mostly metal compass.
#lanyards ...... Silva lanyard is designed to be hung around the neck . Not affixed to yr Belt . Another reason its flat to be tucked inside yr clobber . Ex Para regt Pathfinder .
I don’t agree! I don’t think it was intended to be lassoed about one’s neck! That doesn’t even make sense, but maybe you can show the manufacturer’s papers showing that? I haven’t seen that in the description of any of the Silva base compasses!
Military tactical considerations do not always come from Manufacturers "instructions". when constricted in a tight OP position , Having to struggle to pull a compass from yr belt is problematic. Trust me .. I have been in those situations . @@comingtofull-ageinchrist6736
I think the Silva's "lanyard" is supposed to go around your neck. I'm not saying that's a good idea, but I suspect that is the intended use. I've been trying to get an FB for years. I have the US military compass, but it ia northern hemisphere and I live in Australia. I now use a relatively low end Silva. You don't rate the Silva Expedition 55? They seem toi be hard to. get but I quite liked them when I used them in the military - not as nice an a Francis Barker (I'm. assuming the Aussie army prismatics were Francis Barker).
Ha Ha maybe you could make me a table with two non-metallic supports with a non-metallic top Hmmmmmm. You would be amazed at how fast “stuff” get from the US to the UK. I have bought a few things from the other side of the pond and it normally get here quicker than the items I’ve ordered (at the same time) from the other side of London 😃
@@ApplyWithCaution It LEAKS! Air Bubbles form inside. And then the compass goes SCREWY! And, oh, Cammenga's manufacturing quality is also NOT consistent.
I’ve used all 3, the prismatic and Silva in the army. The Silva is universal and great for general navigation, the prismatic I used when precise bearing were required eg marking out exact areas on a map from a datum point. I have a Cammenga that I bought from a PX in Iraq for doing the same job as the prismatic, which it does at least to the level I required. Getting ahold of the prismatic at a price that makes it viable is virtually impossible and the extra weight is never appreciated unless you intend on smashing someone’s head in with it. Not sure if the Cammenga is liquid filled or not, but both the Silva and prismatic are and Silvas are known for generating bubbles so can only imagine the same could happen to the prismatic.
@stephenhogg2472 Yes, baseplate compasses are liq filled, so, problem w/ bubbles. Same applies to prismatic. Cammenga is NOT liquid filled. It uses a solenoid dampening. So, dry technology, much better. Lighter & solid body. Problem is that Cammenga's quality control is INCONSISTENT. So, that is Cammenga's problem.
Trained in map reading as an army cadet in the 60s using a prismatic compass. Hated it when they replaced them with Silva compasses. Felt they only gave general direction and where useless to do resections with. Never had the same confidence with the Silva compass. I do concede the prismatics are are very expensive. Good video thanks. PS you can set the map using a prismatic, but strictly speaking the compass has to be adjusted from magnetic north to grid north.
A piece of wood laid between two chairs? “Necessity is the mother of invention”! Or I got a camera, several compasses and a scale but no table.. Hey, Great Video (even without the table)
Or . . . . a non-metallic base placed between two non-metallic supports 😊 But yeah I take you point - but all my garden furniture has metal in it somewhere . I looked around my garden and they were all I could find.
It is a bespoke, tailor-made piece of ornamental object-de-arte furniture, created by the finest craftsmen. Or it could be just some old plastic chairs and a bit of wood I found in my garden - all of which are non-metallic??
I have looked at it but will not get one (and I normally get every new compass when it comes out). Not sure why both Cammenga and Brunton have removed one of the most useful parts of a baseplate compass so making it quite difficult to use for people learning to navigate. Well I know why Brunton have done it, but really not sure about Cammenga.
That’s because they are both right next to each other. If you notice on this video I’m using a simple piece of wood to try and prevent any interference, but putting them next to each other briefly, is always going to mess up the needles.
Walking at night, why would you require the compass to have good luminosity? Surely if your walking at night you’d be using a torch so you don’t walk off a cliff edge.
Walking at night your eyes should have adjusted and you will have night vision, although not as good as day vision and unless you are walking through thick scrub close to a cliff edge, it should be more than sufficient. And unless you are lost, I would think you wouldn't really be walking near a cliff edge anyway.
@@joncawte6150 Plus walking anywhere near a cliff is a perfect way to silhouette yourself and give away your whole squad. Especially as coastal areas are the first and last areas to get & lose daylight.
While tactical navigating at night you cannot use a torch, the only time I’d use one would be to change my bearing to change my direction, even then I’d get down very low & cover myself, my torch would also just have a pin prick of light it may even be red, which can make reading contour lines difficult. If you need to check a ground feature against your map then the light of the compass can be enough to do the job 👍
Serving royal marine here and the Francis barker is an exceptional piece of kit, a real joy to use. Solid, accurate and easy to read which Makes resections so much easier and helps in gaining points on map reading tests😉 after using one for the first time and finding out the price, i understood why they have to be handed back in after an exercise.
Thank you for your service.
Used the Cammenga as an infantry officer in the U. S. Army. Never had a problem with it. Purchased the tritium model directly from Cammenga for trekking and hunting. Love it!
Really enjoy your videos
Your narration is fun
While I have used a Silva Ranger for all of my 45 yr career as a forester, it's interesting to learn about the lensatic types
Don't think I will spring for that English model but it sure is a cool compass. Mother of pearl, how neat is that!
Hi Sam, thanks for joining the conversation. The Silva Ranger is a very good compass. I have a few of these which I use on my courses where participants can try out various compasses.
Another vote for the Ranger, especially the older ones. Although I have a soft spot in my heart for the Cammenga after 26 years in the Army. Great review. Thanks.
I used a Silva Ranger for my 44 years as field archaeologist. I knew lensatics, but did really comprehend them as well as I did my Silva.
Well you learn something every day after 24yrs in the army & using the term, Prismatic Compass I’ve just found out it was an M73 all along 😱
A brass bodied extremely well made tough & accurate compass & it wasn’t surprising to have one issued that was decades old, they are marked in mils for greater accuracy, they came with a thin rope lanyard, that fitted in a barrel hitch through the thumb ring & a square webbing pouch, padded inside & a drain hole in the bottom.
We very rarely used it with a map for planning routes, we’d use a Silva compass or usually a protractor on the map & the note the bearings down to transfer to the compass when required.
We did use it for taking very accurate bearings, to say call in fire onto enemy positions etc or planning accurate arcs for fire.
Now if you wanted to accurately find your location & you can identify two references points the ground ahead of you, that you can also identify on your map, take a bearing to each of those points, with a little maths to work out the back bearing you will pin point your position.
Now the Silva compass we pretty much used for planning all multi legged navigation routes, day or night, particularly for night patrols, using the compass flat on the map, noting the bearings between checkpoints & importantly the distances for each of those legs, essential if you have bad visibility such as fog.
You could take bearings with it looking over the top but not with any realaccuracy.
Both invaluable navigation aids & I still use a Silva today for all my mountain trips
Mil radians are no more accurate than degrees, especially if essentially your using an identical compass. The only difference is the mother of pearl card markings. All compasses have an individual compasses error of typically 1.3⁰ plus a typical user error of 1.7⁰. This is cancelled out mostly by 'handrailing' as you travel, checking features along the way where possible. (MAPRIC graduate)
Greetings from Alabama, USA! I was very interested to learn about the British compass. I am familiar with the US and Silva compass, so the comparison is fascinating. For regular use, the Silva is most practical due to lightness and the lack of need to shoot precise azimuths.
Thank you for going to the effort to produce this video!
I was just visiting Huntsville a few days ago. Enjoyed myself.
@@eddyd8745 I lived in Huntsville for 12 years. A very modern city in many ways.
I think these 'what's the best' articles should always be prefaced with the fact that, except in featureless terrain, ANY compass that is accurate and consistently readable to within four degrees of magnetic north is perfectly acceptable for land navigation (on foot), providing one knows how to correctly adjust for declination. In land navigation, one always travels landmark to landmark in short legs.
I’m a surveyor and amateur geologist. My girlfriend bought me a Brenton F-5010 compass (Transit) many years ago. I almost scratched the leather carrying case once and haven’t used it beyond my garden gate since. I use the M-73 and a digital 9” level.
Hello. Thanks very much for a very interesting appraisal of the three common types of compass. I have experience of the British M-73 Prismatic Compass and the Silva Compass. I first used a Prismatic back in 1962, when I joined my School's Army Cadet Force - which was in Degrees - and again from 1969, when I joined the Army; which was NATO Mils. One thing I can say about the Prismatic, is that the Leather Cases that they came in back then, were of a different design to the one you have. The top was connected to the back of the case - not the side - and fully covered the body of the case. In addition, there were Canvas pouches from the British Army 1939 Pattern Webbing, which also were one piece, which completely covered the opening and kept the rain out. They had a Brass Eyelet at the bottom of the pouch. After I left the Army, I got into hiking and camping and bought a Silva, but never really got on with it, so in 1979, I bought my own Prismatic; which cost me £79. That was in Degrees, as the Mils Compass cost £95. I never could get an answer as to why the difference, but came to the conclusion it was a con-job; ripping off people who knew the difference between the two standards. Some years ago, it disappeared from my kit and I never saw it again, but by then, health issues meant I was no longer in a position to use it. I just hope the person who stole it, put it to good use, but by then, the luminous bits needed a torch to 'charge' them up at night, but even then, they were only usable for about 5 minutes. Russ. Portsmouth.
@russbets
The mils are used for fire bearings for weapons
@@christhirion9474 As much as anything else, a more granular unit helps with mental arithmetic under time pressure/other stresses, so when you need to work out where you are and where something is relative to that, more precision while staying in whole numbers generally results in fewer errors.
A lot easier these days when you can just send the gunners the GPS location of the drone that's got the enemy spotted and then call the fall of shot from there.
I got this email from Cammenga this morning...
Thank you for reaching out to Cammenga.
Yes, we offer a Tritium Refresh Service for $50, including shipping the compass back to an address within the United States. Please send us a photo of the ink stamping on the inside cover, as well as a photo of the compass laying flat, from both sides. This will help us to determine if the model you have is serviceable.
Nice video. As you said at the beginning of the video. The best compass is the one that works for the purpose you need it for. For most people I suspect it is the Silva. I used a Glausser (similar to the M73) extensively for mapping seismic lines in the mid 1970s. It is an excellent compass in every sense for professional use but I doubt that many casual users would have the need for that level of accuracy , and the extra weight is a negative.
I was in the US Army artillery and we always used the M2 compass for anything important (e.g., checking the lay of a battery, forward observer calling fire). I'm not sure if the other types were made by Cammenga, but the design was the same. In any event, I was shocked that the Cammenga was spot on for the true north test. Maybe just because they were abused over decades, most of the regular compasses we had were not great. The M2s were typically babied a bit more and I usually found them to be of very high quality.
The M2 is a great compass, but a pain in the ass to use on the march. Their ability to site a crest or masking angle and adjust declination are what sets it apart for me. The Cammenga is a breeze to use and fast. None of this "black arrow or white arrow" crap...... haha!
I really enjoy your videos. As a field archaeologist for over 40+ years I used a Silva Mirror Ranger. Even back in the pre GPS days, my crews using the same models and I discovered there was ,5 to 1 or even 2 degree variation between them.
I find that one piece of Vital information, you can NEVER be lost. Anywhere you are, you will be Exactly above the Centre of the Earth.
I thoroughly enjoyed that little swarry into the world of the compass. I don't use my compass very much these days but there was a time I did, and what I used was the Silva. For walkers, and orienteering It's the only one for me. I've got to say though that I have lost a couple over the years while out on a ramble and I'm sure if it was a more weighty model I would have noticed it's disappearance sooner.
soiree??
Swarry? Soirée!
And then, of course, you can also use a really useful compass that covers everything and is robust enough.
It's called the BREITHAUPT CONAT 4.
It can be used to take bearings, and thanks to a transparent compass box with a few lines and a ruler, it's also great for working on the map. Naturally, with a choice of 64 or 360 divisions.
Not to forget, the compass box, which fits CONAT 2, 3, 4, is available as a spare part, as is the leather pouch. So it's something you can use for a long time.
You just have to get used to the fact that the chic olive green has now turned into plain black.
The only disadvantage is that with shipping it costs just under 300 euros, and you have to be careful, some sellers include the leather bag and some want extra money for it.
The Cammenga (officially the US M1950) is sealed against water intrusion, but is NOT airtight like the M-73. This means that the interior of the capsule can fog over with severe humidity changes i.e. jungle regions. The older the compass, the more pronounced the effect, as the interior rubber gasket ages.
i have no doubt that american engineering is inferior to british engineering in almost every way possible
It's not a question of national expertise in engineering, but a simple question of cost. The US Army is six times larger than the British Army and issuing a $500 compass isn't practical or justified. It's the reason why most British infantry use a $20 Silva baseplate compass instead of the M-73.
US military compasses built before 1992 were mostly Stocker & Yale and I honestly think the build quality was much better than the newer Cammenga. The tritium will be worn out in them but for daytime use they are still great. I got a new 3H Cammenga which has a very sticky bezel ring and needed adjustment to the locking device before the North arrow could pivot freely every time.
When I was in the Australian Army in the 80's, we only used the M73 Francis Barker, I understand that these were first issued for use during the Korean war in 1950. Australia is a funny country though, we were still using Bren Guns in the 80's, which were first used during WW2. All of the field rations that we were issued back then had been made for the Vietnam war.
The mirror type sighting compasses by Silva and Suunto are worthy of consideration as they have the simplicity and ease of map usage of the baseplate types with simple, accurate sighting. Tritium illumination is great until it "wears out" which it does after a few years. Modern Luminova paint needs to be recharged but lasts quite well and can be "recharged" with a micro LED lamp in your pocket without distroying your night vision. An Ultra-Violet LED micro lamp would do the job very well in theory too but I have yet to find one.
Love your table setup!
I have purchased two Cammenga compasses thru Amazon and both had defects. I think sometimes you just get what someone else has returned. I have now ordered one directly from the factory and have high hopes that it will be up to par. I think the Francis Barker compass is very cool indeed!
If only Cammenga comes with two more modifications, it would have been glorious
1. providing choices to choose prismatic or optical sighting system than lens
2. Instead of 3 degree bezel, bezel that supports 1degree error.
Each of the UK and US products holds different value.
Cammenga's M1950 model is a very robust and reliable device, still easy to use.(and relatively cheap for its value)
Francis Barker's M73 and M88 are high-end pieces of intricate machinary with great accuracy and make for great collector items.
Both types already have achieved status of modern classics, still available with Brunton Pocket Transit(from 1894.. an absolute granny at this point).
A shame that German K&R Meridian prismatic or optical compasses seems to have completely disappeared from market in recent years.
Their utility is only now implied by chinese knockoffs having the same effective design with more affordable, but cheaper quality.
Maybe (?) the new replacement for the K&R Meridian is the Breithaupt Conat 4 - who knows?
Bragging a bit, picked up an as new Francis Barker M73 mils compass in Australia the other day for $150. Nearly the happiest day of my life.
My first compass was a surplus US military Brunton Artillery spotter's compass in mils. Later I was issued a Silva Ranger while working the USFS. Once I had my college degree I bought a Brunton, and later the Brunton Geo, both pocket transits and surveys conducted with them could be called "surveys" without quibbling from lawyers. I have a Cammenga, but don't really get along with it.
Cartography and Geology nerd here, and I don't go out without my Bruntons - a TruArc for navigation and Pocket Transit for Geo mapping, surveying and sectioning. I also have a K&E Alidade, but that's just for fun around home.
@@Panicagq2 I've found my Brunton PT good for both navigation and mapping. As part of the job, we often had to cover compass transects over varying terrain and vegetation cover, and the Brunton PC works at least as good as any baseplate compass. To me, the main handicap is that they are bulkier. I taught a colleague how to locate themselves on a USGS topo map using a Brunton. It's arguably a little harder than using a baseplate model. I have a K&E Transit myself, that usually stays home,
@@theeddorian Oh yeah, you can navigate w/a Brunton too, but baseplates are just easier going from map to reality and lighter to boot. Also, I won't cry if I lose a hiking compass lol
@@Panicagq2 That's all true. In my work that +/- 0.5 degree, vs +/-2 degrees was important. You can navigate decently with a Silva Ranger, but when the client wants an "accurate" map, the half-a-degree can become an issue.
You should look at the Suunto MC-2 instead of the Silva Compass. I have the MC-2 NH because I live in Canada but they have different versions of the MC-2 one of which is the MC-2 Global which can be used in both hemispheres. They also have adjustable Declination Adjustment tool. It also has a mirror which meets the other two compasses uses. It’s extremely sturdy and super easy to use.
If you do get one and do a comparison with it I would love to know the accuracy of the MC-2.
Any who great episode and thank you for sharing your views with us.
Hi Mark, thanks for joining the conversation. The Suunto MC-2 is a good compass. I have one, as you'll see in some of my other videos. I didn't use it in this video because as far as I know (I may be wrong about this) it's not the officially issued compass of any major military. The Silva 4 is and that’s why I included it.
Love your improvised display table.
No metal frames, so great for magnetic compass work.
👍
Ex British Army Artillery Observer (2006-2016) We had digital sighting systems, but everyone trains with the prismatic you have there for getting a direction to target
Fun video, I learned some important attributes for these compasses that i can share with hikers I meet. Hiking trail direction, alignment, grade, and angles on the bench and berm are my biggest concerns as we build and repair trails, my 40-year old Silva Ranger still does the job. But one of my trail buddies uses a Cammenga from his Vietnam days as a Marine. He has mentioned that i need to for a little weightlifting before I'm ready to haul the Cammenga 😅
Ha Ha yes Camenga's are a little on the heavy side
I have no idea why I'm recommended a video about compass, but I'm glad
17:35 Doctrinally, the clicks on the Cammenga are only used at night, under light discipline. It can be set for any barring. (Yes, I own all three.) Nice talk.
I'm sitting here with my 3H just for laughs trying to get it to set between clicks. Good luck with that. lol . It is a beautiful compass though, don't leave home without it.
Hello sir, I love your channel! Thank you for sharing your skill! The gasket on my Cammenga 3H bezel is funky as well. 2/3 of it seems lower than the other 1/3. I purchased it in January of 2022 - I think that’s weird for a military compass.
I'm also a great fan of the Silva Expedition 4 and the various Ranger models. I've used the Cammenga and the german Breithaupt Conat military model at the artillery, and the Breithaupt won in my experience as a military compass. Unfortunately the WilKi Meridian lensatic and prismatic compasses are no longer manufactured, but you can get a bunch of cheap chinese copies currently. The WilKi (Wilhelm Kienzle) was the first compass with a thermoelastic capsule and this material and the dampening fluid were a company secret. They ended with the production.
I have been thinking of getting a Cammenga compass due to the fact that it's not fluid filled. I've damaged two Silva compasses by leaving them in my truck during the winter.
UK is the ultimate in precision can be used for everything usually referred to as an Artillery Compass. The Camenaga is mid quality not oil damped the most inaccurate and difficult to use because the needle won't steady EVER. The Silva can't be sighted for better accuracy is oil damped and steadies the needle well for the average person the Silva is more than good enough for Map reading trekking etc light and has plenty of features. The other 2 both require the use of various protractors. The usual damping media is I'm told White Kerosene often referred to as oil filled. All compass are designated Northern or Southern hemisphere to compensate for magnetic dip as the compass needle drops either can be used within reasonable distance of the equator but not in lower latitudes. For the Average person the Silva is the way to go. The Aussie military uses the Artillery compass in Mils for accuracy and a plastic compass for day to day use.
When serving we used the prismatic (FB) more than most may think, once used to it there's no problem with maps; fine for general use & easy to set up for any new destination, always spot-on. But... if only because of its straight edge & transparency, I had a Suunto or Silva as my everyday choice - also more comfortable because flatter in a chest pocket.
! bought a YCM (Japanese made) lensatic compass back in 1970, with plastic casing, and it is labelled 'Engineer Lensatic Compass'. My new Brunton type 15 plate compass, bought 6 years ago( made in the USA), and that YCM both agree north is north. Yesterday, I bought a cheep knock-off of the Engineer lensatic compass, which looks very much like the YCM, but made in China. The compass points 60 mils to the west for north, but, the mils read at 20 mils for the cheap Chinese, while the Japanese YCM reads at 40 mil increments. We really need to calibrate these cheaply made compasses. They are cheap, because they are cheap. I scotch taped the Chinese compass bezel with the glow in the dark line to 60 mil to the left of north, and need to read it as such, from the deviated line.
The main difference are the units used, military compassese uses MILs, 6400 per rotation,. CIvilain compases use the far more familiar degrees, 360 per rotation,. Outside of the military, using MILS is confusing and means nothing to most people, so beware which version you buy. The Silva and Francis Baker compasses shown both use degrees, the Cammenga in MILs.. Francis Baker make them in MILS for the military , I have a Silva 54 prismatic in degrees and a silva 4 (I think) in MILS.
It also would have been useful to show the effect of nearby ferrous metals - are any of the compases more or less effected, that's caught me out a few times.
I watched a programme about the making of the Francis Barker a few years ago. Used to replace a lot of the parts on them when serving in the British Army many years ago. Never used one in the field as I bought a Silva compass. Lighter and not as bulky to carry and didn't have the worry of breaking and paying for the FB should the powers that be decide it was my fault.
If it compass does not point north then its a paper weight
and if its plastic its not even a good paper weight 😎
Very informative thanks. Disappointing to read that you think the Silva Expedition 4 is the best of its type. I returned one recently as the north end of the needle was dipping badly when the baseplate was level and decided to give the Suunto M3 NH a try, based on the belief its still made in Finland. Annoying that the romer is missing but it seems you can't have it all!?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge in these videos.
You may have purchased a compass that was balanced for a different geograpical zone. You can't really escape quality control issues with any brand of compass these days. Silva is made in China, yes, but Suunto workers report layoffs with unrealistic production goals imposed on the remaining workforce, which could slso affect quality.
ive used the Malaysian military compass back in the 80s and 90s … essentially they were Francis Bakers. heavy for its size and cost more than what i earned a month back in the days ha ha … bought myself a Suunto MC2 mirror compass then for my own use primarily for finding direction of Mecca when i travel around in-country … used it once to find some bore holes prospecting for kaolin deep in some oil palm plantation and back track to the original point … still with me today but it has since lost all its glow in the dark thingy and a lot more scratches … and nowadays i just use my iPhone but still carry the Suunto whenever i go deep in the jungle …
Silva is probably meant for the orienteering: running with a maps and compass. At least partially, that's what we've done with those. Thus the lanyard. You're not meant to put it on you neck. You're meant to hold it in hand with your map.
And it you're orienteering at night -- you has your headlight on anyways.
I use the Sharky Shadow compass on my phone.
Operation:
I point an arrow on my phone at the shark. Then I tap an arrow on my phone in the direction of my shadow and immediately get a readout of the azimuth to the shark (from True North)
Then I guess distance to shark and calculate it's GPS coordinates.
Then I navigate to that spot digitally if I wanted to. No need to walk straight along a bearing. Infact, I can walk backwards around the continent and still reach the sharks location from the other side (theoretically).
I can even see the location on a map without internet and without a SIM card, provided I played with the app that displays the map before disconnecting from internet. The map then appears to be cached in memory. I use GPX VIEWER to view route between observer marker and shark marker.
For my location i can get GPS from satellite or by using fake GPS location (for more accuracy)
My phone has no magnetometer, no gyroscope. It is the Nokia C1 (second edition). It is my cheapy Android street walking phone.
Alan partridge would be mightily impressed with your tabel / two deck chairs with an old shelf design
try to get angry down the centre of the table.
The Francis Barker M-73 Liquid Prismatic Compass is used by mortar fire controllers(MFC) to bring in mortar fire on to targets. The mortar section commander uses the m73 to setup gun lines. Now gps and other modern equipment is used today but technology has a habit of failing. So they are still carried today. No other compass will give you the accuracy and robustness of the m73. I would say unless you are a MFC a Sliva should do fine job.
Thanks for the insight Gareth
US Marines, and I assume Army too, use the M2 compass for the same purpose. The M2 is essentially a military, graduated in mils and green finish, version of the Brunton Pocket Transit. I could do very accurate triangulation and gun placement using the M2 when I was the 81mm platoon FDC.
I find UK models more accurate in pointing direction. the US models only point to McD, KFC, Dunkin, Chick Fillet etc. etc. The US models don't have minute marks either. If you go from McD to KFC it shows calorie adage or subtraction which we all know Americans cannot calculate. So in essence it is flawed in that way.
The fans in the stands for Premier League football are evidence that the UK compass only points to McDs and KFC, too. Calculating caloric intake of Yorkshire pudding is built-in to the compass, but obscured to the user.
@@arctain1 And pies, don't forget the pies.
@@user-bw5ib8ds1e Hahahahah!
Brits eat a lot of McDonald's and KFC too!
Nobody needs directions to McDonald’s just walk in any direction and you will come across one soon enough
I have the same Bosch laser measure tool. It’s quite smart! It gives angles and can give the volume of a room and can measure the height of a wall, and if you mount it on a tripod. Can give some pretty accurate measurements. Really, it’s a level but tells you if you’re at a 90 degree angle and if a wall is plum. It’s accurate to less than a 16th or 2.54 cm I think the conversion is correct.
It’s a great tool, and I think they have an app for it now so that you can record measurements and send them to people. I don’t know much about that though
Not having used the Cammenga, I'm not qualified to say much about it. However, having spent 14 years in the British Army, I have used the M73 extensively and having been involved in Scouting for a good many years, I also have much experience of the Silva. Of those two, I would stake my life on the M73 but used in concert they are invaluable.
You could always take a punch tool and hammer and make a weep hole in the bottom of the Francis Barker pouch, unless the top flap is made to shed the water away
Great video very informative. Would love to know just how you found North to check the accuracy of the compasses.
Ha Ha now THAT is another video - think sun, time of day, Lat & Long, etc.
I may do this video when I have got through the LONG list I already have on my to "to do" list
I believe the lanyard on the Silva goes around your neck. But it’s not as good as they used to be Made. I would go with a different brand of orienteering compass than using the Silva.
I still have the lensatic compassI used in Desert Storm. I still use it for navigation. It doesn’t have the tritium. The Army used both wit and without. But, if I could I would get one of those British M73 compasses. I like the fact you can read a 1/4 degree from it. Makes a difference doing a resection with it or triangulating your position from two or more known points.
The Silva is used by the Swedish military. So in some way you have three military compasses.
I've lost track of how many hours I spent with the British prismatic compass back when I was in the army. Yes you can use them with a map with no difficulty and the military take great pains to make sure you an do it. I never realised they were that expensive. I can understand why the army got rather upset with you if you lost one, luckily I never did.
I imagine the military don’t pay anything like that amount for them as they will buy so many. The price I gave was the (civilian) retail cost.
In Britain the government and uts various departments pay more than retail price. Too many greedy people in the chain and 'it's only tax payers money'
You should contact Cammenga about the O ring not sealing. I doubt they want that out there to be found by someone else. Thanks for the review.
I did, just after I made the video (when I first noticed the problem) but they didn't respond. Oh well it still works 😉
@@TheMapReadingCompany I am extremely disappointed in them. I would send a link to the video to the compny. Yes it works, but in your enviroment I expect to fog at some point and it's not a cheap knock off.
Nice. Thank you. Have used, many times, the USGI compass, Cammenga, and they are simply bullet proof, have amazing temperature variation workability, as well....--50 degrees F to over 150 degrees F. Very important test on all three compasses....especially for desert hiking or mountaineering, winter hikes.. Do You know working temperature limits for the UK compass? Also... we've never seen a compromised seal on a Cammenga! crazy...thank you again!
According to the manufacturers website the operating temperature of the M73 is 55°C (131°F) down to -30°C (-22°F)
www.pyseroptics.com/_files/ugd/309901_d07a34649674436bbdf628d61d0d708f.pdf
Great, fun video! Thanks for that!
Silva expedition 54 is better than the 4, as it has a prismatic sight and is marked to 1/2 degree. 2 or 3 timesore expensive, if you can find one. The one i have has a lens on one side of the bezel and the prism inside the compass, so it looks like a nomal base plate compass and can be used as such if you want.
Not completely. The Silva 54 and other hybrid compasses that have both a baseplate and a prismatic sighting system all use a magnetized card instead of a boxed needle, which blocks any view of the bottom of the compass and makes it difficult to use the compass as a simple protractor to measure true course headings from a map (one of the key benefits of a baseplate compass).
Hi@@user-sp9wr5rf4c
Not all. I got my compass 40 years ago, so maybe the models have changed. On mine the needle is attached to an engraved aluminium ring that has the markings you see in the prism. So you can see through to the base plate. The big advantage is that you look through the sighting and you see a reflection of the markings in the ring at the same time as thing you are taking a bearing on. Because the prism is small and close to the ring, there is little parallax when reading. The needle is on a sapphire jewelled pivot
@@mikeclarke2638 Wow mike, you've got a real collector's item. The Silver 54 produced from the 1990s to a few years ago uses a magnetized card. I have one from 1999 and like it a lot, but I carry a protractor when i use it with a map.
@@user-sp9wr5rf4c Shame they no longer make it - I cannot seem to find anything equivalent available today.
I love your videos, they are so detailed and very well done. The comparisons I’ve done are pretty bad compared to yours for sure 😛
Used mainly the prismatic compass (british) and the Silva.
The Silva is not soldier proof. It is very easy to scratch and scratch badly.
The prismatic is almost indestructible.
Personally only used mils.
You mean with the line on the wood, you are demonstrating magnetic north?
The prismatic looks and feels solid? Easy to use while on the march, you can almost guarantee a soldier will have difficulty damaging it.
Picking a compass because of a lanyard? With the prismatic you use the thumb attachment.
17:46 That's not how lume is supposed to be used. The way you use it is you get out your flashlight, you close your eyes and look away, you shine it on your compass for a second or two which charges the lume, you turn off the light and then you can use your compass without losing your night sight. But I agree tritium is far more useful, but also far more expensive.
Their are more than 3 navigational compasses. The Suunto KB20 is an excellent compass.
Hi, thanks for joining the conversation. Yes you're right there are many type of compasses, but this video was specifically about military compasses which is why it featured the M73 and H3. I added the Expedition 4 as some militaries use base plates.
Great video. Nothing really to argue about here, just some personal opinions and comments:
Tritium is great, but the civilian version Cammenga and other compasses with phosphorescent paint can be "charged" with a short burst from a flashlight(torch to UK folks) and glows very bright and easy to read for several minutes. Much brighter than tritium. This can be a huge bonus.
Which north? Grid north, true north, or magnetic north? If your declination angle is 0.24, shouldn't the compasses have been off by a quarter degree in reading? Or was your line magnetic north?
The Francis Barker is a fine instrument. The Cammenga is a tool. The Silva is a toy. But all will tell you where mag north is just fine. Unless you're calling in danger close artillery fire, they are just fine for land navigation with a map.
All of them have their advantages and disadvantages. The toy is great for it's transparency alone. The Cammenga for it's ergonimics, ease and speed in use. The FB is a fine instrument that's frankly overkill for land navigation. Training on how to navigate is much more important than having a hyper accurate instrument. If you ARE calling in artillery fire, there are better tools for that today.
I wish you'd have included a US M2 compass. It has some really cool features like vertical angle measurement. Not a great land nav tool though, imo. But much tighter tolerances and higher quality of construction.
Hi Mike, thanks for joining the conversation.
The whole movie long i was looking for how long your table will stay upright. Lucky it didn’t happen. Sorry for the fun. Nice and interesting comparison of those compasses. I made my choice for the baseplate. The Francis Barker is much too expensive and has no straight edge. The Cammenga? I don't know what to think about. Those 3° steps are a little too much. In general, i saw your video of that Cammenga and another similar compass and i am sorry but (i don't’ know why) i stil don’t understand how they work. With other compasses, no problem i am enough equipped of them. No idee why i don’t understand the working of the Cammenga, in principe it is the same as other compasses. I am thinking about to order me one of those cheap (-15€) variants of it. The accuracy isn't important, therefore i have my Original Bezard and my Suunto MC-2. It's just to understand the working of it.
I did about ten years of Mountain Bike Orienteering, and had that Silva around my neck ( with a whistle and magnifying lens,) all that time. I think I only used it once, at a five way crossroads, during all the hundreds of events that I did. Most time a quick look at where the sun was, was adequate enough. One thing that it was good for was plotting NGRs, which I don't think the other two would do.
My Silva Expedition 4 was total junk. Needle was out of balance, and yes, it was made for the MN zone (where I am located). I threw it in the trash the day it arrived. Not worth my time to return it. The Stocker and Yale (similar to Cammenga) worked fine for me when I was in the military, so that is the direction I'm leaning towards, at the moment.
Stocker and Yale - that's going back a few years 😊
@@TheMapReadingCompany Yeah, I was in the US Navy back in the 1980's. I don't think Cammenga came around until the early 1990's (but I could be wrong about that). I'm currently using a Brunton mirror compass. I got turned onto the Brunton, because I majored in Geology in college, and used a Brunton transit/compass quite a bit. It's unfortunate that the Silva turned out to be a dud. I was hoping for better. The South end of the needle was nearly dragging against the compass housing when it was level. Just venting a little, I guess.
500 pounds for a prismatic compass! I have a CKC/C Mk 3, 234550, owned for years. Never thought they were worth that much.
Good video. Thank you.
Thank you too!
Only one can theoretically start a fire.
This m73 pouch is a civilian gimmick really, but you would have to be in some pretty damn consistently torrential rain for the pouch to fill up, even then it would make absolutely no difference to the compass. The military pouch would be of a canvas or cordura variety, with a drain hole.
Almost every m73 I have ever encountered, and it's in the hundreds, has had,where fitted, a lanyard fitted to the thumb ring, whether they have been of sufficient length is subjective to the user.
As to accuracy, although I can't see clearly on this version, the m73 has degrees and, the far more accurate, mils on the dial, though I concede the mils isn't something the average walker would need to use.
My M73 has degrees.
I can't comment on military versions, and I bought as a civilian. It came with the leather pouch and no lanyard.
Yeh I’m with you there, the thin rope lanyard barrel hitched onto the thumb ring & when I was into army the pouch was made of a webbing material, padded inside & again with a drain hole.
Good review. In British usage you meant variation, not declination.
The Cammenga looks faulty in that it was so "wobbly" when you moved it just a small amount. I wouldn't pay £1 for a compass that did that.
I purchased a Huntington premium oil damped compass DC47-T2 a few years ago for £14, a great mostly metal compass.
Question: went to Cammenga company website and they have one for Northern Hemisphere and one model for Southern Hemisphere. Why?
#lanyards ...... Silva lanyard is designed to be hung around the neck . Not affixed to yr Belt . Another reason its flat to be tucked inside yr clobber . Ex Para regt Pathfinder .
I don’t agree! I don’t think it was intended to be lassoed about one’s neck! That doesn’t even make sense, but maybe you can show the manufacturer’s papers showing that? I haven’t seen that in the description of any of the Silva base compasses!
Military tactical considerations do not always come from Manufacturers "instructions".
when constricted in a tight OP position , Having to struggle to pull a compass from yr belt is problematic. Trust me .. I have been in those situations . @@comingtofull-ageinchrist6736
On previous video you convince me that I wanted a Francis Barker and then I looked up the price. 😩😄
The U.S. Army issued compass is considered DISPOSABLE. U.S. Soldiers often just toss these in the garbage (supposed to dispose as radioactive waste).
I own all three types, although my prismatic is Swiss made, British WWI issue, therefore an antique
I think the Silva's "lanyard" is supposed to go around your neck. I'm not saying that's a good idea, but I suspect that is the intended use. I've been trying to get an FB for years. I have the US military compass, but it ia northern hemisphere and I live in Australia.
I now use a relatively low end Silva.
You don't rate the Silva Expedition 55? They seem toi be hard to. get but I quite liked them when I used them in the military - not as nice an a Francis Barker (I'm. assuming the Aussie army prismatics were Francis Barker).
i believe you have some of the checks misplaced under speed and parts replacement in teh graph at the end.
Fascinating
I'm pondering if I made you a table, how I would get it from Texas, USA to The UK. Nice video, thanks.
Ha Ha maybe you could make me a table with two non-metallic supports with a non-metallic top Hmmmmmm.
You would be amazed at how fast “stuff” get from the US to the UK. I have bought a few things from the other side of the pond and it normally get here quicker than the items I’ve ordered (at the same time) from the other side of London 😃
@@TheMapReadingCompany No metal. Okay, I'll let that cook in the subconscious and see what emerges.
Shipping times just build the anticipation.
Great video!
Why on earth do you believe that you can't put a lanyard through the thumbhole of the M73?
That’s exactly where it attaches the military ones come with a rope lanyard that you simply barrel hitch onto the thumb loop…simple
👍yep through the thumb ring 👍
Used both the Prismatic & the Lensatic in the military. Still prefer the Cammenga. The prismatic is too heavy & is liquid filled.
... and your problem with liquid filled?
@@ApplyWithCaution It LEAKS! Air Bubbles form inside. And then the compass goes SCREWY! And, oh, Cammenga's manufacturing quality is also NOT consistent.
I’ve used all 3, the prismatic and Silva in the army. The Silva is universal and great for general navigation, the prismatic I used when precise bearing were required eg marking out exact areas on a map from a datum point. I have a Cammenga that I bought from a PX in Iraq for doing the same job as the prismatic, which it does at least to the level I required. Getting ahold of the prismatic at a price that makes it viable is virtually impossible and the extra weight is never appreciated unless you intend on smashing someone’s head in with it. Not sure if the Cammenga is liquid filled or not, but both the Silva and prismatic are and Silvas are known for generating bubbles so can only imagine the same could happen to the prismatic.
@stephenhogg2472 Yes, baseplate compasses are liq filled, so, problem w/ bubbles. Same applies to prismatic. Cammenga is NOT liquid filled. It uses a solenoid dampening. So, dry technology, much better. Lighter & solid body. Problem is that Cammenga's quality control is INCONSISTENT. So, that is Cammenga's problem.
Trained in map reading as an army cadet in the 60s using a prismatic compass. Hated it when they replaced them with Silva compasses. Felt they only gave general direction and where useless to do resections with. Never had the same confidence with the Silva compass. I do concede the prismatics are are very expensive.
Good video thanks.
PS you can set the map using a prismatic, but strictly speaking the compass has to be adjusted from magnetic north to grid north.
Great video thanks
A piece of wood laid between two chairs? “Necessity is the mother of invention”! Or I got a camera, several compasses and a scale but no table.. Hey, Great Video (even without the table)
Or . . . . a non-metallic base placed between two non-metallic supports 😊
But yeah I take you point - but all my garden furniture has metal in it somewhere . I looked around my garden and they were all I could find.
@@TheMapReadingCompany - metal.. I didn’t think that one through..
Cant the small error of a couple of degrees n the Silva be corrected using the declanation set screw on the bottom?
There isn't one on the Expedition 4
I think thevaustralian ones are interesting, with the needle on the back of course.
Why is metal body better than plastic ones ?
Thanks I would drill my own hole still learning thank you ❤😊
Drill your own hole!
Why would you or attach it to the ring?
I just have to know, where did you buy your table? I don’t think I’ve seen one like it before.
It is a bespoke, tailor-made piece of ornamental object-de-arte furniture, created by the finest craftsmen.
Or it could be just some old plastic chairs and a bit of wood I found in my garden - all of which are non-metallic??
love the table made with chairs. instand like😊
Trying to prevent any metallic interference. Didn't work, but thought I'd give a try 😊
Cammenga do now make an excellent baseplate compass its got tritium too
I have looked at it but will not get one (and I normally get every new compass when it comes out).
Not sure why both Cammenga and Brunton have removed one of the most useful parts of a baseplate compass so making it quite difficult to use for people learning to navigate. Well I know why Brunton have done it, but really not sure about Cammenga.
I would go with a Brunton or a suunto global compass before going with a Silva.
Hi Jerry, I included the Silva as it's used by a number of militaries around the world and this is a video about military compasses.
the middle one cost 10€, Look at minute 13.35, the 2 compas face different north.........
That’s because they are both right next to each other.
If you notice on this video I’m using a simple piece of wood to try and prevent any interference, but putting them next to each other briefly, is always going to mess up the needles.
Walking at night, why would you require the compass to have good luminosity?
Surely if your walking at night you’d be using a torch so you don’t walk off a cliff edge.
Oh yes, using a torch is always a good idea when on the front lines, or in enemy territory!
Walking at night your eyes should have adjusted and you will have night vision, although not as good as day vision and unless you are walking through thick scrub close to a cliff edge, it should be more than sufficient. And unless you are lost, I would think you wouldn't really be walking near a cliff edge anyway.
@@joncawte6150 Plus walking anywhere near a cliff is a perfect way to silhouette yourself and give away your whole squad. Especially as coastal areas are the first and last areas to get & lose daylight.
While tactical navigating at night you cannot use a torch, the only time I’d use one would be to change my bearing to change my direction, even then I’d get down very low & cover myself, my torch would also just have a pin prick of light it may even be red, which can make reading contour lines difficult.
If you need to check a ground feature against your map then the light of the compass can be enough to do the job 👍
I'll see your Francis Barker and raised you a Brunton Pocket Transit. Old or New design.
👍👍👍 !!!
send the 3h back for repair or replacement.
How about UK compass vs US gps.
I ordered a compass online and it got lost in the mail.
😂