"I honestly wish Ben Reilly was still alive and was working with Peter." 2017. The Clone Conspiracy... Ohhhhhhh... be careful what you wish for, Linkara...
Anybody remember the 90s cartoon finale? I'd love for them to work together like the AU Spider-team did. Ben Reilly was the best of 'em, and I was hoping we'd see him like that in *something* again at some point, but it never quite happens.
Phelous as Mysterior was absolutely hilarious. Would love to see more of this mysterious Mysterior and his mysterious ways that are mysterious mysteries that are excitingly mysterious.
36:30 “A bitter, more experienced Spider-Man fighting alongside an out-of-practice, but more optimistic Spider-Man.” *Meanwhile in Spider-Man: Into The Spiderverse....* Peter: “We’re a team! Me as the teacher who can still do it, and you the student, who can do it but not as good.”
Ahh, Judas Traveller, such a mysterious, enigmatic figure...and by that, I mean it's a mystery why this guy is even a Spider Man villain. Also, Mysterior and Mr. Enigma look like Subzero and Scorpion cosplaying as the Spy from TF2. XD
+TPrower Kaine was the only good villain introduced during the Clone Saga in my opinion. His backstory was planned ahead of time (just read THE LIFE OF REILLY essay) and the idea of him being a failed Clone made him a perfect parallel of both Ben Reilly (who was the successful clone) and Peter Parker (as Kaine was a psychotic serial killer whereas Peter was bound to his moral principles). He and Ben were the best parts of the saga in my opinion!
Doctor Judas Traveller? Why not! Doctor Stephen Strange goes around wearing an ominous cape and huge ornamental jewelry, and he is a legitimate medical doctor.
Crowley9 honestly I kind of now want a Spider-Man show to somehow do Traveler right - as a mysterious foe operating until a big episode outside Peter's notice, creating villains and scenarios to test him.
Funniest part of Judas Traveller is that they retconned him to be a mutant that only THOUGHT he had reality warping powers, but really had illusion/mind powers (perception manipulation?) that just made him and everyone else think he had godlike abilities… which doesn’t explain half of what he does in his introductory story, such as taking a kick to the head from Spider-Man.
That retcon was completely absurd. Judas Traveller deflected bullets from a trigger-happy cop, was that an illusion? So what actually happened then, did the cop shoot him down and the entire story is an illusion cast by an agonizing Traveller? Was the cop himself an illusion? It was such a lazy contrivance, and what's worse, turned out Traveller the demi-god was yet another pawn of Norman Osborn in that convoluted master scheme of his that never made any sense.
I definitely would've preferred Peter retiring to be a family man and getting replaced by Ben to him cutting a literal deal with the devil. I also like your idea for just never answering which one is the clone and them deciding it doesn't matter but then I seem to remember Marvel as having some really weird ideas about clones...
Peter Parker retiring form being Spider-Man also lets him stick around as a supporting character and occasionally put on the suit again when things get really bad, plus there’s the stories to be told with his child.
When I wrote fro Collector Times, I actually asked J.M. Dematteis why he left the Spider-Books at that point. He told me that he didn't like how each writer had their own view of Ben Riley was.... some people making him a slightly dark Peter, somepeople going for early 80s Peter and others making him an idiot. Plus he had gotten some animation work and a chance to do some books at Vertigo, some Batman prestige books including the Spider-Man/Batman team ups.
The "I am a man!" punch grabbing Vyce out of the depths of space and the horrified response is probably my favourite "I am a man!" punch joke so far. Never fails to make me laugh.
Kaine was the only new villain introduced during the CLONE SAGA that I actually felt served a purpose to the story. His backstory as a failed clone made him a perfect parallel for Ben Reilly, the more successful clone, and he also served as a dark reflection of Peter's own character (being that he's a psychotic serial killer whereas Peter is bound to his morals of power and responsibility). I felt that Kaine possessed great potential as a character as he not only had a tragic and developed backstory, but also because of the dualism between him, Peter, and Ben, which was especially explored in the underrated LOST YEARS and REDEMPTION story arcs (seriously, if you have not read them, do so now! They are quite easily the best stories written during the saga, as well as some of the best Spidey comic's I've ever read!). Overall, Ben Reilly and Kaine were easily the most interesting developed characters created during THE CLONE SAGA, and I feel that had the saga not been the train-wreck that it was, they would have been massively successful characters (I loved Kaine's solo series as the new SCARLET SPIDER by the way). As for Judas Traveller and Scrier on the other hand, I agree with Linkara that they shouldn't even be in the story! By the way, I'm also writing my own series of reviews of THE CLONE SAGA which I have titled as CLONE MADNESS! I'll post a link to them on both my website and Amazon.com account! www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A2UEEAFTSTBVOT?ie=UTF8&ref_=cm_cr_pr_pdp samhulksmash75.wix.com/universityofpanels#!comic-book-reviews/cgt5/Tag/Clone%20Madness
KidSnivy69 If you read stuff like THE LOST YEARS and it's sequel, REDEMPTION (the best stories to come out of the entire saga by the way...), Kaine is a fully fleshed out character with a three-dimensional rivalry with Ben Reilly that's so complete, that virtually one character's yin compensates for the other's yang. Kaine is also really good in his SCARLET SPIDER solo series from 2012. He and Ben Reilly were the best parts of the saga and my opinion, and should not be disregarded or forgotten about. Also, I've actually been reading the entire CLONE SAGA myself for a series of reviews that I'm writing on Amazon, and I can safely say that while it did go on for way too long, the characters Judas Traveller, Spidercide, and it's version of the Jackal were downright awful, and the stories SMOKE AND MIRRORS, THE TRIAL OF PETER PARKER, and MAXIMUM CLONAGE were absolute garbage (they were the only CLONE SAGA stories that I genuinely hated) there were a lot of good stories and concepts that spawned from it. Ben Reilly and Kaine are two of them, and so were characters like Dr. Seward Trainer, Janine Godbe from THE LOST YEARS, Jessica Caradine (the daughter of the Burglar), and Detective Raven, and there were plenty of great stories like the aforementioned LOST YEARS and REDEMPTION, along with THE GIFT (AMA SPM #400), THE EXILE RETURNS, WEB OF DEATH, THE GREATEST RESPONSIBILITY (if you ignore the new Dr. Octopus as the stuff with Peter's fears of being a neglectful father is handled extremely well), and THE FINAL ADVENTURE. I'm just saying that just because the saga as a whole failed, doesn't mean that good ideas were unable to emerge from it, and I managed to discover quite a few of them!
Naruto85RasenShuriken The clone sage is to long for me, I tried to read it from the beginning (I have an friend whose uncle is a total comic fan) and I lost interest
37:17 That's pretty much what that "Real Clone Saga" mini-series from a few years back did, and it was fantastic for it. Though it felt a bit rushed at times, it's a great comic and I loved the ending for that reason.
After seeing SF Debris's video about the Speculator Boom, I can't help but feel sorry for the creative team during the Clone Saga. They really got screwed over by marketing and Bob Harris.
The saga actually did have some really talented Spider-Man writers and artists involved, like J.M. DeMatteis, Tom DeFalco, Fabian Nicieza, Glenn Greenburg, John Romita Jr., Mark Bagley, Tom Lyle, and Sal Buscema. Plus, if you read the online LIFE OF REILLY essay (which gives an entire behind-the-scenes perspective of the making of THE CLONE SAGA) you can tell that the writers were honestly trying to tell an epic Spider-Man story with genuine depth and emotion behind it, but their efforts were continuously screwed-over by the Marketing Department and Marvel's then-approaching bankruptcy. In all honesty though, I've read the majority of THE CLONE SAGA myself and I sincerely do not hate it. Like, I actually thought there were several genuinely good stories in it (such the backstory of Ben Reilly and Kaine in THE LOST YEARS miniseries and its sequel REDEMPTION, the Scarlet Spider's debut and fight against Venom in THE EXILE RETURNS, Aunt May's death in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #400, Doctor Octopus' death in WEB OF DEATH, and even THE FINAL ADVENTURE miniseries where Peter temporarily loses his powers...), and the two Spider-Man clones Ben Reilly and Kaine have since become some of my favorite Spider-Man characters! Plus, unlike the abomination that was ONE MORE DAY, THE CLONE SAGA had a heck of a lot more actual effort put into it despite its setbacks. Overall, I freely admit that the saga is filled with problems, but there are just so many good elements in it that I stand behind, and therefore I cannot bring myself to hate it. That being said, Judas Traveller, Spidercide, and the new version of the Jackal (not the original one from the 1970s storyline) are the absolute WORST though...
I was in the lunchroom at school when linkara shouted it's the four year anniversary. I threw my hands up in the air in fists, and did a geek scream, and now my whole table is staring at me...
Judas Traveler reminds me of The Beyonder from the 90s Spider-man cartoon; except Beyonder worked better. It made sense that The Beyonder was this mysterious being who was just running an experiment to test whether heroes or villains were stronger and the nature of villainy. The Beyonder was an all-powerful very alien entity who lived who was so different from us, rather than a seemingly human philosopher and psychologist (occupations that imply he's very familiar with humanity). Also, The Beyonder in the 3-episode Secret Wars event was really only in the background. Judas Traveler is supposedly the main villain and keeps popping up in the main story to screw around with Peter. You can't have it both ways! If you want the character to be truly mysterious, make him look and act alien and DON'T let us see him acting like just another supervillain!
The thing about Judas Traveller that bothers me is he looks like a Doctor Strange villain, or even a character from a totally different setting. Looking at him and hearing his name and seeing the stuff he does, what PART of him says 'Spider-Man character' to you?
Thanks linkara I am working on a comic and I made sure to make notes on what not to do thanks man also I learned from you how to make actual good comic jokes unlike some of the junk made in the 90s or by miller
Me reading the title and clicking on the video: "FINLLY!!! He's going to review the Ultimate Spider-Man comics!" Linkara: "No, not that one!" Me: "Damn it!" But to be fair, I can understand why he isn't into the Ultimate Universe. And honestly, I'm always running towards the Ultimate Spider-Man comics whenever I dive into this realm. They're freaking awesome! But sadly, whenever it comes to Ultimate X-Men, Fantastic Four, the Ultimates or anything else outside of Spider-Man, they're all either hit or miss, with a few exceptions being the most terrible ever made.
@@jfdrac Considering that Marvel turned Spider-Man's life into a never-ending spiral of shame and death, with the breaking point being the one where he makes a deal with the Devil, Linkara has reasons to despise what Spider-Man has become. He also considers Peter Parker currently dead because of Spider-Man: One More Day.
I remember reading this saga when it was published, I was of course younger and I didn't have any of the backstory of theses comics (not that it would have helped but whatever). I read all the four issues and it was depressing, and confusing. I bought a few issues after this and it didn't improve so I stopped.
I'm not surprised Spider-Man didn't question it, to be honest. If I were Spider-Man, I really wouldn't even be caught off guard by the random misery heaped upon me at this point.
It's hard being a Spider-fan sometimes, the clone saga (thought I do like the scarlet spider) one more day, the green goblins very elaborate revenge scheme, the constant verbal abuse from Jameson, the complete fuster-cluck that is his love life, the many times aunt may has either died outright or at least being at death's door, which is why it's important appreciate the moments when life isn't forcing him to take it up the ass
[The Spider-man:] "I HATE PETER PARKER!" [Linkara:] "That's funny, so do the Spider-Man writers!" *Rimshot* [Ben Reilly:] "So that's why the life of Peter Parker is an unending cycle of PAIN & MISERY!" [JUDAS TRAVELER:] *monologues about how mysterious he is till he starts to ramble like an OWL🦉 in ZELDA!* [Ben Reilly:] *whistles* "Hey Wade can you shut him up!" *GUNSHOT* [Deadpool:] "I've been waiting for someone to ask that since he first appeared during the Clone Saga! Besides I never really liked the RABBLING OWL in ZELDA as he's more annoying than NAVI!" *Rimshot*
This REALLY bugs me, because a mad doctor type who used masterful illusions to intimidate and trick enemies but fell for his own hype could be a really damn good character pitch, but they didn’t WRITE it! They wrote a dime-store mystical moron and slapped that bio on him post hoc!
I wonder if Judas Traveler was meant to be Judas Iscariot ? I mean look at those silver looking pieces around his wrists, maybe fifteen pieces on each wrist, and that chain round his neck almost looks like a noose.
+McCaffery SPOILER! He's actually a mutant who suffered a nervous breakdown and has the ability to alter people's perceptions of reality. All this time he was really being manipulated by Scrier, who in-turn, is actually several people all dressed in the exact same outfit working for Norman Osborn, the true mastermind behind THE CLONE SAGA!
Fors Clavigera Yeah, the retcons for Judas Traveller are definitely stupid, but hey, at least he's no longer a god-like being and I'm happy for that! I actually do like the retcons for Scrier though, as him being multiple people does make sense to me in that he had the ability to appear and disappear at any random location regardless of time or distance, it helps in building the illusion of him being a god-like being, the Scriers would then act as field operatives for Norman Osborn, and the idea of Scrier being a different person every time we see him is actually kind of scary when you think about it. Why does Linkara and every other reviewer I've come across think that Scrier's retcons make zero sense (even less so than Judas Traveller's)? Having actually read and reviewed the entire CLONE SAGA myself, it I actually found the idea to be pretty clever...
I've got an idea for what Judas Traveller could be if the writers brought him back. A reality warping mutant, alien, demon, or something inhuman that wants to see what it how much it would take to push Peter Parker over the edge and became evil or completely insane.
Its kind of what he was although they retconned him a bit...They basically revealed he was a Mutant who THOUGHT he could wapr reality but was pretty much a New Mastermind
According to comic tropes he was originally going to be a fallen angel who wanted to learn how to be a good person by stalking Peter or some shit like that, they scrapped that idea for a good reason
I actually rather liked Ultron from AVENGERS: AGE OF ULTRON (which by the way, was the best movie I've seen so far all year!), as he was very charismatic and had much more personality than your usual evil robot (especially since his personality reflects that of Tony Stark). Still, to each his own then!
We really need a Patreon-sponsored-review of Amazing Spider-Man #542. Yeah, this comic where Peter made the Kingping pay for shooting down his grandma, and where he learns that revenge is rather pointless... x)
Well believe it or not I’m actually writing my own marvel universe and actually doing something with this Judas Traveller character, first by changing the name to Judah Travers and making him this universe’s Sorcerer Supreme as opposed to Dr Strange. And actually creating the story for him that he was a former psychologist who was working in a sanctioned psychologic center for superpowered meta humans that was traumatized by an attack from one of his patients and so went to Kamar-Taj to heal his shattered mind and became ultimately Sorcerer Supreme, working through his mental trauma
33:50- 34:01 i think this was the biggest example of why I never got into superhero comics. the writer switch around and may write characters out of character and do what ever with them making it hard to care about what's going on anymore. I know they can be written back in to character but that just putting a band-aid on a bullet wound since it had to stop and fix it before moving on( if not ignore which is worse)
(In response to linkara's comment on everything after One more day being a horrible nightmare) I mean, I think Superior Spider-man was pretty awesome, but that might partly be my love of the iron spider redesign, but still. I agree with Rob. It was a cool idea, told some cool stories, & didn't outstay its welcome (at least in my opinion). & for anyone who's gonna bring up Doc Oc hitting on Mary Jane, Wolverine did it too, but no one ever talks about that & wolverine is at least 100 years older than ol' otto.
It's too bad that Ultimatum deterred Linkara from reading Ultimate Spiderman, which fixed a lot of the character issues that the mainstream Spiderman was having.
+Tareltonlives Ironically, that parody was a million times better than the actual Judas Traveller! Trust me, as someone who has read THE CLONE SAGA from start to finish, he is one of the most boring characters in comic book history...
"Call me Evelyn" I'm surprised we haven't gotten a trans Spider-Girl/Woman considering all the Spider-Verse stuff and Marvel creating a bunch of LGBTQ+ characters recently (which I love because they're also bring in a bunch of queer creators too!)
+Brandon Roberts Except Battle Royale came out a long time before hand & it's novel won several international prizes... and the Hunger Games rip-off coming out prevented a US reboot due out about the same time.
+Brandon Roberts Hunger Games isn't a Battle Royale ripoff, Suzanne had never even heard of it when she wrote Hunger Games. She was inspired by Roman gladiators, which is pretty obvious considering all the Latin names.
+Brandon Roberts Of course I do, why would she lie? Also I've read all the Hunger Games books and seen the Battle Royale movie, and aside from basic premise, they're really not as similar as people say.
Considering it was eventually revealed that Traveller's powers are merely casting illusions, how the heck did he phase through walls, read the inmates' minds and teleport the doctors away?
A very logical concern, so Marvel ignored all that. They could've made him out to be an extra powerful mutant, like Legion, Exodus, Proteus. But that would've made sense, so they didn't.
Holy god just found this out now but apparently Judas Traveler is back a month ago and is now a villain for the X-Men. Didn’t think he’ll come back after all these years lmao
Congrats on the 4th Anniversary, + Linkara-Atop the Forth wall. Oh, I've disassociated myself from the church of Bob Corby. His version of the bible is written in Klingon, for some reason.
You know who two nigh-omnipotent DC villains are who do stuff only for their amusement who are actually good characters? Mr. Mxyzptlk and the Tiem Trapper. Mxy works because he isn’t looking for “the reason behind the secret of human mortality” or what ever Traveler’s after. Mxy isn’t after anything serious, he’s just a fun prankster who happens to be able to turn Thanos into a toothpick. And the Time Trapper lives at the end of time. What’s he to do when everything else no longer exists? They work because they aren’t actually looking for a serious goal like Traveler is. Mxy and the Trapper do it for their amusement, while Traveler actually has a serious goal in mind, while they don’t jell with his powers.
How the hell does Judas Traveller doing a bunch of evil stuff help him understand "the nature of evil"? It sounds self-defeating. Poor character motivation, woefully underdeveloped and horribly executed. At first, it seemed to me like it would be going somewhere, but it only got worse as the Clone Saga went on. I was shocked to find out that neither the writers nor the editors knew what the hell Judas Traveller was, but it made a lot of sense.
I once created a character named Mordred who was in a more magical version of Arthurian lore. Basically a Eragon rip off. ((it was a forum rp)) But the way I made her to be was that her father named her Mordred since having 'bad thoughts' about a name was STUPID and Illogical. That we shouldn't think someone named Judas is bad just cause their name is the name of a traitor. Of course in the rp I planed on having her betray the group to become a spy against the big evil.
11:35 Counter-argument: The Demo-Goblin. One of the several people went by the name The Hobgoblin sold his soul to a demon or some crap and became a demonic version of the Hobgoblin that threw out firebombs and was out to kill sinners. If you recall, he was part of Carnage's posse in Ultimate Carnage. Not saying that's the norm for Spider-Man (or even that the Demogoblin was even a GOOD villain, cuz he seemed really stupid, honestly), but there IS technically precedent for some weird mystical all-powerful Spider-Man villain.
Yes but he was not all powerful....Judas as presented here was basically a god...DemoGoblin did have demonic powers but really isnt that much more powerful than many foes Spidey faces. He didnt phase through walls, alter reality, teleport, immune to attacks and could grow and shrink things on command. Judas before his retcon was Beyonder
“I was the Jackal’s pawn, until I reached the other side of the board and got swapped out for a queen” The origin of the Ultimate universe Spider-Woman
Oh my gosh! Judas Traveller is just a boring rip-off of The Beyonder! Beyonder also ran high-stakes contests of food and evil to understand human nature, but he was actually good at it because he stayed out of it! He got a mess of heroes and villains together, said “fight each other and I’ll give you whatever you want,” and then he sat back and watched! He didn’t actually fight anyone unless THEY picked a fight with HIM. Also, the Beyonder didn’t make pretentious conclusions about good and evil, didn’t have a bunch of ill-defined supporting cast, and was a glowing cloud of alien energy so he actually seemed mysterious and alien, not a weirdo in “Mr. T jewelry over his Dracula cape!”
Here’s an idea I had to fix Judas Traveller: He’s not some psychologist, he’s an entity from another dimension or plane of existence akin to Q or the Excalbians, who wishes to examine the nature of humans, who he has no experience with. He zeroes in on the concepts of good and evil. He goes to Ravencroft in order to choose Carnage as his avatar of evil due to all the murders he’s done, and thus ends up selecting Spider-Man to represent good and Venom the in between due to their relation to the already selected Carnage, switching between villains and antiheroes to examine evil and greyness after this initial storyline, the use of Venom and Carnage can prop up the initial story because it’s the 90s and they’re popular, then can be dropped from Traveler’s fixation later. Spider-Man however, Traveller becomes interested in him personally, akin to Q with Picard, and as such continues to challenge to bring out the truth of human nature, whether they have the capacity to be noble at their core or are all ultimately savage like Carnage. Ben Reilly comes back in a story centered entirely around his return and ends up pulled into Peter’s business with Traveller, who finds the clone to be an interesting wrinkle in things like here. The Scrier is another entity from the same plane of existence as Judas who doesn’t believe their kind should interfere with mortals and wants to put a stop to Traveller’s influence while also causing as little interference himself as possible.
I actually kinda feel the same way with the mandarin with iron man, I just don't see Iron man facing off against a man with ten magic rings, unless it's a cross over with Thor, or Doctor Strange. The mandarin just rubs me the wrong way
Seeing how this year marks the 30th anniversary of the Clone Saga, I decided to revisit this review once again. And considering what a rocky start (and that's putting it VERY mildly) this storyline was, is it really that surprising that the rest of this over-bloated and convoluted monstrosity of a "saga" turned out the way it did?
Nothing to do with the review (just saying that is awesome as always) But how do you feel about the Deadpool Corps comic mini-series Linkara? Just won a bunch of them (bunch = 7) and even tough im going to read it anyway... i want to know your opinion! :3
20:37 I kinda get it but its still annoying especially since in Universe its been 5 years since the 70s clone saga which is a long time sliding time scale or not so Ben had plenty of time to try to build an identity for himself. I prefer how it was handled in the 2009 Clone Saga Mini he kinda did that Issue 4 was when he was most angsty in the mini but it wasn't really about his existence more like how he's changed since leaving the Peter Parker life behind. He also compares himself to Peter but only after he's become Spiderman so it comes off as not being sure he can really fill the shoes of someone he respects. edit: A good example being that in issue 4 his boss tries to set him up on a date with her friend whose nice enough but Ben really couldn't enjoy himself because she reminded him of Elizabeth Tyne a Ben Reily specific love interest rather then stir up memories of say Gwen instead and afterwards reflects on his time on the road
Surely all you have to do is say a character wanting to look at the nature of evil just releases all the villains to examine the extent of their actions and motivations? (I've just jumped on to this episode so I don't have a clue what travelers intended purpose is beyond mystery) Sure you can say he wants to examine the source of their antagonism but even with a clone in the mix it's still one case study, I mean maybe examine the villains without him from carnage based psychosis to more logical doc oc then have the spidermen intervene that way having the guy analysing it either seeing it as outside interference or using it to the conclusion that the concept of true evil will at some point come into contact with a positive force but requires further investigation, as he only has that one example for multiple villains to measure against
You know, C.S. Lewis, in Out of the Silent Planet, suggested that fear (specifically the fear of death) was the root of all evil. That was handled a lot better, because we got to see that play out in the world the story took place in, which was rooted in Biblical allegory. Oh, and this "truth" was told by an ANGEL and not a weirdo who thinks ambiguity for the sake of ambiguity is compelling.This is just kind of depressing. There was the spark of a good idea here at the beginning of the Clone Saga, and even some good lines, but even at the very beginning (the good stories according to Linkara) it was bogged down by ill-conceived ideas about characters and themes.
I understand all the hate the clone saga, I guess. I honestly do but I've always liked it, it's my go to guilty pleasures spider-man stories. it brought us Ben Reilly who I love Ben Reilly A lot. Like when I started reading Spider-man as a kid Ben was spider-man, also love his scarlet spider and spider-man costumes.
I don't HATE the Clone Saga, I do hate some moments of it, but it was freakin' Shakespeare compared to Sins Past, One More Day, Reign, The Gathering of Five, Superior Spider-Man, Chapter One, Changes, The Final Chapter. But the Clone Saga was a mess, filled with missed opportunities, continuity screw-ups and atrocious use of the Jackal. As far as I'm concerned, the Clone Saga ended when Ben Reilly became Spider-Man, because he was supposed to be the real on. Of course, Marvel had to back out and then we got the illusion that the Clone Saga was still going on, so they could explain that the clone issues were still going on because Peter was the real one after all. Which brought us to the garbage that was "Revelations", and that I do hate, with a passion. It screwed up with ALL continuity, made no sense, and brought back Norman Osborn, who staining the Spider-Man story forever.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
"I hate Peter Parker."
"That's funny, so do the Spider-Man writers."
I think my laugh just shattered my living room windows.
If i wrote the script, I'd have gone with "that's funny, so does quesada."
Spider-Man is the Punching-Bag of the Marvel-Universe
@@robinschicha4712 he really is.
@@robinschicha4712
Yup.
Lul and I thought my singing voice was high pitched.
"I honestly wish Ben Reilly was still alive and was working with Peter."
2017. The Clone Conspiracy... Ohhhhhhh... be careful what you wish for, Linkara...
working with peter not turning evil
Anybody remember the 90s cartoon finale? I'd love for them to work together like the AU Spider-team did. Ben Reilly was the best of 'em, and I was hoping we'd see him like that in *something* again at some point, but it never quite happens.
Wait, so Ben is a villain now? :(
@@SpawnRevenge92 he was. Which was stupid, because we just got Cain as a hero. So why would we then need Ben as a villain...?
Thankfully Ben's been somewhat redeemed. Haven't seen him since Spider-Geddon though.
Judas Traveler reminds me of that bit from Mystery Men. "That's his power, he's mysterious?" "Terribly mysterious, actually" lol
Judas Traveller: “Spider-Man, if you do not master your rage…”
Spider-Man: “Your rage will become your master? That’s what you were gonna say right?”
Yeash, Amadeus Arkham had a more realistic rehabilitation goal! ... AND HE WAS COMMITTED TO HIS OWN ASYLUM!!!
Oh how I love irony
The Mysterior plot is one of AT4W's best
Phelous as Mysterior was absolutely hilarious.
Would love to see more of this mysterious Mysterior and his mysterious ways that are mysterious mysteries that are excitingly mysterious.
agreed!
36:30 “A bitter, more experienced Spider-Man fighting alongside an out-of-practice, but more optimistic Spider-Man.”
*Meanwhile in Spider-Man: Into The Spiderverse....*
Peter: “We’re a team! Me as the teacher who can still do it, and you the student, who can do it but not as good.”
Peter B Parker is a perfect representation of Peter Parker. Sony hit the nail on the head.
The Mysterior bit is incredibly funny. "I have myserious glasses" I lol'd
Ahh, Judas Traveller, such a mysterious, enigmatic figure...and by that, I mean it's a mystery why this guy is even a Spider Man villain.
Also, Mysterior and Mr. Enigma look like Subzero and Scorpion cosplaying as the Spy from TF2. XD
+TPrower Kaine was the only good villain introduced during the Clone Saga in my opinion. His backstory was planned ahead of time (just read THE LIFE OF REILLY essay) and the idea of him being a failed Clone made him a perfect parallel of both Ben Reilly (who was the successful clone) and Peter Parker (as Kaine was a psychotic serial killer whereas Peter was bound to his moral principles). He and Ben were the best parts of the saga in my opinion!
TPrower it's deeply tied into their backstories but you need to do a lot of digging to find it because they are so mysterious.
Doctor Judas Traveller? Why not! Doctor Stephen Strange goes around wearing an ominous cape and huge ornamental jewelry, and he is a legitimate medical doctor.
Well he has clear goals and motives.
Crowley9 yeah but Dr Strange is a good character which gives him a pass
Pretty sure Strange got his doctorate before he got the ornate cape and jewelry.
What really happened to Judas Traveller after the Clone Saga.
Crowley9 honestly I kind of now want a Spider-Man show to somehow do Traveler right - as a mysterious foe operating until a big episode outside Peter's notice, creating villains and scenarios to test him.
Funniest part of Judas Traveller is that they retconned him to be a mutant that only THOUGHT he had reality warping powers, but really had illusion/mind powers (perception manipulation?) that just made him and everyone else think he had godlike abilities… which doesn’t explain half of what he does in his introductory story, such as taking a kick to the head from Spider-Man.
That retcon was completely absurd. Judas Traveller deflected bullets from a trigger-happy cop, was that an illusion? So what actually happened then, did the cop shoot him down and the entire story is an illusion cast by an agonizing Traveller? Was the cop himself an illusion? It was such a lazy contrivance, and what's worse, turned out Traveller the demi-god was yet another pawn of Norman Osborn in that convoluted master scheme of his that never made any sense.
@@brunomidrashyeah agreed on that part, I think he’s actually a salvageable villain if you don’t just make him another stupid pawn
I definitely would've preferred Peter retiring to be a family man and getting replaced by Ben to him cutting a literal deal with the devil. I also like your idea for just never answering which one is the clone and them deciding it doesn't matter but then I seem to remember Marvel as having some really weird ideas about clones...
Yeah, that should've happened.
Peter Parker retiring form being Spider-Man also lets him stick around as a supporting character and occasionally put on the suit again when things get really bad, plus there’s the stories to be told with his child.
"Buuuuut enough of answering legitimate questions. It's time for bullcrap." This whole saga in a nutshell 🤣🤣🤣
"A bitter, more experienced Spider-Man fighting alongside an out of practice, but more optimistic Spider-Man"
Sooo....Into the Spider-Verse?
When I wrote fro Collector Times, I actually asked J.M. Dematteis why he left the Spider-Books at that point. He told me that he didn't like how each writer had their own view of Ben Riley was.... some people making him a slightly dark Peter, somepeople going for early 80s Peter and others making him an idiot. Plus he had gotten some animation work and a chance to do some books at Vertigo, some Batman prestige books including the Spider-Man/Batman team ups.
Spider-Man: Ability and Duty
Spider-Man: Strength and Obligation
Spider-Man: Energy and Honor
Spider-Man: Ability and Accountability
Spider-Man: Muscle and Mentality
The "I am a man!" punch grabbing Vyce out of the depths of space and the horrified response is probably my favourite "I am a man!" punch joke so far. Never fails to make me laugh.
Kaine was the only new villain introduced during the CLONE SAGA that I actually felt served a purpose to the story. His backstory as a failed clone made him a perfect parallel for Ben Reilly, the more successful clone, and he also served as a dark reflection of Peter's own character (being that he's a psychotic serial killer whereas Peter is bound to his morals of power and responsibility). I felt that Kaine possessed great potential as a character as he not only had a tragic and developed backstory, but also because of the dualism between him, Peter, and Ben, which was especially explored in the underrated LOST YEARS and REDEMPTION story arcs (seriously, if you have not read them, do so now! They are quite easily the best stories written during the saga, as well as some of the best Spidey comic's I've ever read!).
Overall, Ben Reilly and Kaine were easily the most interesting developed characters created during THE CLONE SAGA, and I feel that had the saga not been the train-wreck that it was, they would have been massively successful characters (I loved Kaine's solo series as the new SCARLET SPIDER by the way). As for Judas Traveller and Scrier on the other hand, I agree with Linkara that they shouldn't even be in the story!
By the way, I'm also writing my own series of reviews of THE CLONE SAGA which I have titled as CLONE MADNESS! I'll post a link to them on both my website and Amazon.com account!
www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A2UEEAFTSTBVOT?ie=UTF8&ref_=cm_cr_pr_pdp
samhulksmash75.wix.com/universityofpanels#!comic-book-reviews/cgt5/Tag/Clone%20Madness
Eh good character on paper, too had his story was the clone saga
KidSnivy69 If you read stuff like THE LOST YEARS and it's sequel, REDEMPTION (the best stories to come out of the entire saga by the way...), Kaine is a fully fleshed out character with a three-dimensional rivalry with Ben Reilly that's so complete, that virtually one character's yin compensates for the other's yang. Kaine is also really good in his SCARLET SPIDER solo series from 2012. He and Ben Reilly were the best parts of the saga and my opinion, and should not be disregarded or forgotten about.
Also, I've actually been reading the entire CLONE SAGA myself for a series of reviews that I'm writing on Amazon, and I can safely say that while it did go on for way too long, the characters Judas Traveller, Spidercide, and it's version of the Jackal were downright awful, and the stories SMOKE AND MIRRORS, THE TRIAL OF PETER PARKER, and MAXIMUM CLONAGE were absolute garbage (they were the only CLONE SAGA stories that I genuinely hated) there were a lot of good stories and concepts that spawned from it. Ben Reilly and Kaine are two of them, and so were characters like Dr. Seward Trainer, Janine Godbe from THE LOST YEARS, Jessica Caradine (the daughter of the Burglar), and Detective Raven, and there were plenty of great stories like the aforementioned LOST YEARS and REDEMPTION, along with THE GIFT (AMA SPM #400), THE EXILE RETURNS, WEB OF DEATH, THE GREATEST RESPONSIBILITY (if you ignore the new Dr. Octopus as the stuff with Peter's fears of being a neglectful father is handled extremely well), and THE FINAL ADVENTURE.
I'm just saying that just because the saga as a whole failed, doesn't mean that good ideas were unable to emerge from it, and I managed to discover quite a few of them!
Naruto85RasenShuriken I don't think I have that attention spand
KidSnivy69 I'm confused...
Naruto85RasenShuriken The clone sage is to long for me, I tried to read it from the beginning (I have an friend whose uncle is a total comic fan) and I lost interest
I just love that Traveller read Spidey's mind and immediately began laughing. Oh, you webslinging trainwreck.
37:17
That's pretty much what that "Real Clone Saga" mini-series from a few years back did, and it was fantastic for it. Though it felt a bit rushed at times, it's a great comic and I loved the ending for that reason.
8:48
Sums up the entire Dan Slott run pretty accurately.
*meme horn*
I’m gonna ignore you
Another reason to like the Chip Zydarsky spectacular spider-man book.
After seeing SF Debris's video about the Speculator Boom, I can't help but feel sorry for the creative team during the Clone Saga. They really got screwed over by marketing and Bob Harris.
The saga actually did have some really talented Spider-Man writers and artists involved, like J.M. DeMatteis, Tom DeFalco, Fabian Nicieza, Glenn Greenburg, John Romita Jr., Mark Bagley, Tom Lyle, and Sal Buscema. Plus, if you read the online LIFE OF REILLY essay (which gives an entire behind-the-scenes perspective of the making of THE CLONE SAGA) you can tell that the writers were honestly trying to tell an epic Spider-Man story with genuine depth and emotion behind it, but their efforts were continuously screwed-over by the Marketing Department and Marvel's then-approaching bankruptcy.
In all honesty though, I've read the majority of THE CLONE SAGA myself and I sincerely do not hate it. Like, I actually thought there were several genuinely good stories in it (such the backstory of Ben Reilly and Kaine in THE LOST YEARS miniseries and its sequel REDEMPTION, the Scarlet Spider's debut and fight against Venom in THE EXILE RETURNS, Aunt May's death in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #400, Doctor Octopus' death in WEB OF DEATH, and even THE FINAL ADVENTURE miniseries where Peter temporarily loses his powers...), and the two Spider-Man clones Ben Reilly and Kaine have since become some of my favorite Spider-Man characters! Plus, unlike the abomination that was ONE MORE DAY, THE CLONE SAGA had a heck of a lot more actual effort put into it despite its setbacks.
Overall, I freely admit that the saga is filled with problems, but there are just so many good elements in it that I stand behind, and therefore I cannot bring myself to hate it. That being said, Judas Traveller, Spidercide, and the new version of the Jackal (not the original one from the 1970s storyline) are the absolute WORST though...
29:09 Yeah. A shame that the Joker said a variation of that line in the Killing Joke 6 years earlier.
Dr. Judas Traveller. Because Dr. Harold P. Satan was too subtle, I guess.
I was in the lunchroom at school when linkara shouted it's the four year anniversary. I threw my hands up in the air in fists, and did a geek scream, and now my whole table is staring at me...
Was it embarrassing?
Judas Traveler reminds me of The Beyonder from the 90s Spider-man cartoon; except Beyonder worked better. It made sense that The Beyonder was this mysterious being who was just running an experiment to test whether heroes or villains were stronger and the nature of villainy. The Beyonder was an all-powerful very alien entity who lived who was so different from us, rather than a seemingly human philosopher and psychologist (occupations that imply he's very familiar with humanity). Also, The Beyonder in the 3-episode Secret Wars event was really only in the background. Judas Traveler is supposedly the main villain and keeps popping up in the main story to screw around with Peter. You can't have it both ways! If you want the character to be truly mysterious, make him look and act alien and DON'T let us see him acting like just another supervillain!
The thing about Judas Traveller that bothers me is he looks like a Doctor Strange villain, or even a character from a totally different setting. Looking at him and hearing his name and seeing the stuff he does, what PART of him says 'Spider-Man character' to you?
Congrats Linkara! I love your reviews bro! You're one of the greatest channel awesome reviewers! Never change man!
Thanks linkara I am working on a comic and I made sure to make notes on what not to do thanks man also I learned from you how to make actual good comic jokes unlike some of the junk made in the 90s or by miller
Me reading the title and clicking on the video: "FINLLY!!! He's going to review the Ultimate Spider-Man comics!"
Linkara: "No, not that one!"
Me: "Damn it!"
But to be fair, I can understand why he isn't into the Ultimate Universe. And honestly, I'm always running towards the Ultimate Spider-Man comics whenever I dive into this realm. They're freaking awesome! But sadly, whenever it comes to Ultimate X-Men, Fantastic Four, the Ultimates or anything else outside of Spider-Man, they're all either hit or miss, with a few exceptions being the most terrible ever made.
And that is the problem Spiderman was pretty good and he focuses more on the BAD
@@jfdrac Considering that Marvel turned Spider-Man's life into a never-ending spiral of shame and death, with the breaking point being the one where he makes a deal with the Devil, Linkara has reasons to despise what Spider-Man has become. He also considers Peter Parker currently dead because of Spider-Man: One More Day.
@@DarsiPadilla Exactly I was just talking Ult Spidey being good vs OMD Hence why he hasbt reviewed much from the ULT Spidey line
@@jfdrac He's not too invested in seeing a Peter Parker back in highschool.
I remember reading this saga when it was published, I was of course younger and I didn't have any of the backstory of theses comics (not that it would have helped but whatever). I read all the four issues and it was depressing, and confusing. I bought a few issues after this and it didn't improve so I stopped.
I'm not surprised Spider-Man didn't question it, to be honest. If I were Spider-Man, I really wouldn't even be caught off guard by the random misery heaped upon me at this point.
It's hard being a Spider-fan sometimes, the clone saga (thought I do like the scarlet spider) one more day, the green goblins very elaborate revenge scheme, the constant verbal abuse from Jameson, the complete fuster-cluck that is his love life, the many times aunt may has either died outright or at least being at death's door, which is why it's important appreciate the moments when life isn't forcing him to take it up the ass
I think we've finally hit rock bottom with Zeb Wells' current run. Marvel's made it clear Peter must be perpetually miserable.
[The Spider-man:] "I HATE PETER PARKER!"
[Linkara:] "That's funny, so do the Spider-Man writers!"
*Rimshot*
[Ben Reilly:] "So that's why the life of Peter Parker is an unending cycle of PAIN & MISERY!"
[JUDAS TRAVELER:] *monologues about how mysterious he is till he starts to ramble like an OWL🦉 in ZELDA!*
[Ben Reilly:] *whistles* "Hey Wade can you shut him up!"
*GUNSHOT*
[Deadpool:] "I've been waiting for someone to ask that since he first appeared during the Clone Saga! Besides I never really liked the RABBLING OWL in ZELDA as he's more annoying than NAVI!" *Rimshot*
This REALLY bugs me, because a mad doctor type who used masterful illusions to intimidate and trick enemies but fell for his own hype could be a really damn good character pitch, but they didn’t WRITE it! They wrote a dime-store mystical moron and slapped that bio on him post hoc!
Spider-angst
Spider-angst
From a couple of spider-wangs
Will they fight?
Probably
Whine a lot
Woe is me
Look out!
Here comes more spider-angst
Well played.
Mysterior... That was Phelous wasn't it?
Yep!
Linkara-AtopTheFourthWall Thought as much, I could tell he was trying to do his Shredder, Scorpion and Sub-Zero voice.
@@joe95883
He couldn’t have told you himself because he’s FAR TOO MYSTERIOUS FOR THAT!
@@daelen.cclark very true
I wonder if Judas Traveler was meant to be Judas Iscariot ? I mean look at those silver looking pieces around his wrists, maybe fifteen pieces on each wrist, and that chain round his neck almost looks like a noose.
As Linkara said in the Crossfire review, he would have to be the whitest Judas Iscariot ever.
+McCaffery SPOILER! He's actually a mutant who suffered a nervous breakdown and has the ability to alter people's perceptions of reality. All this time he was really being manipulated by Scrier, who in-turn, is actually several people all dressed in the exact same outfit working for Norman Osborn, the true mastermind behind THE CLONE SAGA!
+Naruto85RasenShuriken Wow... Linkara promised that the explanation of who JT was would be dumb, and he sure wasn't wrong about that!
Fors Clavigera Yeah, the retcons for Judas Traveller are definitely stupid, but hey, at least he's no longer a god-like being and I'm happy for that! I actually do like the retcons for Scrier though, as him being multiple people does make sense to me in that he had the ability to appear and disappear at any random location regardless of time or distance, it helps in building the illusion of him being a god-like being, the Scriers would then act as field operatives for Norman Osborn, and the idea of Scrier being a different person every time we see him is actually kind of scary when you think about it.
Why does Linkara and every other reviewer I've come across think that Scrier's retcons make zero sense (even less so than Judas Traveller's)? Having actually read and reviewed the entire CLONE SAGA myself, it I actually found the idea to be pretty clever...
+Naruto85RasenShuriken Damn, I was going to unleash that spoiler on the Spiderman: Crossfire review video! Thanks for taking my thunder!
I've got an idea for what Judas Traveller could be if the writers brought him back. A reality warping mutant, alien, demon, or something inhuman that wants to see what it how much it would take to push Peter Parker over the edge and became evil or completely insane.
Its kind of what he was although they retconned him a bit...They basically revealed he was a Mutant who THOUGHT he could wapr reality but was pretty much a New Mastermind
According to comic tropes he was originally going to be a fallen angel who wanted to learn how to be a good person by stalking Peter or some shit like that, they scrapped that idea for a good reason
mysterior for the next avengers movie. let's make it happen.
+Thomas Jenkins As pointless villains as Mysterior and Mr. Enigma were, they were still a million times better than Judas Traveller or Scrier!
+Naruto85RasenShuriken And Malekith, and Ronan and Ultron.(the MCU version)
I actually rather liked Ultron from AVENGERS: AGE OF ULTRON (which by the way, was the best movie I've seen so far all year!), as he was very charismatic and had much more personality than your usual evil robot (especially since his personality reflects that of Tony Stark).
Still, to each his own then!
I thought he was too jokey to the point of annoyance and that he wasn't nearly as fearsome as he was in stories like Ultron Unlimited.
Well we got it in the spiderman movie
I can't wait for JJ Abram's Superman to feature Superman's final showdown with his greatest foe: MYSTERIOR!
29:02 Killing Joke much?
We really need a Patreon-sponsored-review of Amazing Spider-Man #542. Yeah, this comic where Peter made the Kingping pay for shooting down his grandma, and where he learns that revenge is rather pointless... x)
Is that before or after One More Day? Linkara refuses to read any Peter Parker stories post-OMD until they undo the deal with Mephisto
Before one more day I think.
9: 40 Oh no its Revolver Ocelot! The La Li Lu Le Lo must have been the one who cloned Peter.
To be fair the inmates might let Carnage go first to act as a shield considering i doubt bullets from any kind of gun would even slow him down
Well believe it or not I’m actually writing my own marvel universe and actually doing something with this Judas Traveller character, first by changing the name to Judah Travers and making him this universe’s Sorcerer Supreme as opposed to Dr Strange.
And actually creating the story for him that he was a former psychologist who was working in a sanctioned psychologic center for superpowered meta humans that was traumatized by an attack from one of his patients and so went to Kamar-Taj to heal his shattered mind and became ultimately Sorcerer Supreme, working through his mental trauma
Ahh Judas Traveler aka "Mysterious Guy Who Monologues About How Mysterious He Is Without Actually Saying Anything As He's So Dang Mysterious!"
Linkara also forgot Doctor Strange as a hero who would be better fit for someone like Judas Traveler than Spiderman.
33:50- 34:01 i think this was the biggest example of why I never got into superhero comics. the writer switch around and may write characters out of character and do what ever with them making it hard to care about what's going on anymore. I know they can be written back in to character but that just putting a band-aid on a bullet wound since it had to stop and fix it before moving on( if not ignore which is worse)
15:59 bye Phalous why was he even here
25:44 oh great he's back
Wee, with Peter Parker's parents being CIA agents you can scrub the super-spy angle right there.
"Why the hell am I still doing this?"
If nothing else, eleven years later he seems to have gotten a lot more enjoyment out of his job.
“Call me… Evelyn!”
Congrats to Spider-Woman on her transition
Rewatching the Clone Saga reviews and seeing Ben here is a hurtful reminder of how he got screwed over earlier this year.
(In response to linkara's comment on everything after One more day being a horrible nightmare)
I mean, I think Superior Spider-man was pretty awesome, but that might partly be my love of the iron spider redesign, but still. I agree with Rob. It was a cool idea, told some cool stories, & didn't outstay its welcome (at least in my opinion). & for anyone who's gonna bring up Doc Oc hitting on Mary Jane, Wolverine did it too, but no one ever talks about that & wolverine is at least 100 years older than ol' otto.
Linkara should review the Original Clone Saga in the 70's next time.
Anyone else wonder why the onomatopoeia for rapid gunfire is Budda? Its like every time they pull the trigger somebody gets enlightened.
It's too bad that Ultimatum deterred Linkara from reading Ultimate Spiderman, which fixed a lot of the character issues that the mainstream Spiderman was having.
I love Phelous as the Judas Traveler parody. I hate that kind of "mysterious" villain.
+Tareltonlives Ironically, that parody was a million times better than the actual Judas Traveller! Trust me, as someone who has read THE CLONE SAGA from start to finish, he is one of the most boring characters in comic book history...
Not surprised. Frankly, its this kind of writing that got me OUT of comics
Tareltonlives Which comics did you read? I mostly follow Spider-Man, Batman, and the X-Men.
To come back to these older episodes, I've come to miss the 'be right back/we're back' segments
"Call me Evelyn"
I'm surprised we haven't gotten a trans Spider-Girl/Woman considering all the Spider-Verse stuff and Marvel creating a bunch of LGBTQ+ characters recently (which I love because they're also bring in a bunch of queer creators too!)
Wonder if Beyond the Spider-Verse will go where it's speculated it will with Gwen...
1:11 huh...That looks more like Battle Royal than Hunger games but same material, different title
+Brandon Roberts Except Battle Royale came out a long time before hand & it's novel won several international prizes... and the Hunger Games rip-off coming out prevented a US reboot due out about the same time.
+Solqueen86 More like Running Man with teenagers instead of Arnold Schwarzenegger.
+Brandon Roberts Hunger Games isn't a Battle Royale ripoff, Suzanne had never even heard of it when she wrote Hunger Games. She was inspired by Roman gladiators, which is pretty obvious considering all the Latin names.
+Brandon Roberts Of course I do, why would she lie? Also I've read all the Hunger Games books and seen the Battle Royale movie, and aside from basic premise, they're really not as similar as people say.
You comment make me wish the first of The Culling reviews was already on AT4W re-runs
Considering it was eventually revealed that Traveller's powers are merely casting illusions, how the heck did he phase through walls, read the inmates' minds and teleport the doctors away?
He cast illusions at the reader
A very logical concern, so Marvel ignored all that. They could've made him out to be an extra powerful mutant, like Legion, Exodus, Proteus. But that would've made sense, so they didn't.
Holy god just found this out now but apparently Judas Traveler is back a month ago and is now a villain for the X-Men.
Didn’t think he’ll come back after all these years lmao
Congrats on the 4th Anniversary, + Linkara-Atop the Forth wall. Oh, I've disassociated myself from the church of Bob Corby. His version of the bible is written in Klingon, for some reason.
You know who two nigh-omnipotent DC villains are who do stuff only for their amusement who are actually good characters? Mr. Mxyzptlk and the Tiem Trapper. Mxy works because he isn’t looking for “the reason behind the secret of human mortality” or what ever Traveler’s after. Mxy isn’t after anything serious, he’s just a fun prankster who happens to be able to turn Thanos into a toothpick. And the Time Trapper lives at the end of time. What’s he to do when everything else no longer exists? They work because they aren’t actually looking for a serious goal like Traveler is. Mxy and the Trapper do it for their amusement, while Traveler actually has a serious goal in mind, while they don’t jell with his powers.
I have all the issues of the 1970's Clone Saga, including the sequel featuring Carrion. In short, Carrion is a deteriorated clone of the Jackal.
How the hell does Judas Traveller doing a bunch of evil stuff help him understand "the nature of evil"? It sounds self-defeating. Poor character motivation, woefully underdeveloped and horribly executed. At first, it seemed to me like it would be going somewhere, but it only got worse as the Clone Saga went on. I was shocked to find out that neither the writers nor the editors knew what the hell Judas Traveller was, but it made a lot of sense.
14:55 ... "i could tell you boy, but i won't " :D
Judas traveller could even be a doctor strange villain
maybe the mysteriously mysterious mystirior is senior sunglasses?
+Tirzah Filicicchia Or Crazy Steve stole a new costume?
8:48 It's sad how true that is
I once created a character named Mordred who was in a more magical version of Arthurian lore. Basically a Eragon rip off. ((it was a forum rp))
But the way I made her to be was that her father named her Mordred since having 'bad thoughts' about a name was STUPID and Illogical. That we shouldn't think someone named Judas is bad just cause their name is the name of a traitor. Of course in the rp I planed on having her betray the group to become a spy against the big evil.
11:35
Counter-argument: The Demo-Goblin.
One of the several people went by the name The Hobgoblin sold his soul to a demon or some crap and became a demonic version of the Hobgoblin that threw out firebombs and was out to kill sinners. If you recall, he was part of Carnage's posse in Ultimate Carnage.
Not saying that's the norm for Spider-Man (or even that the Demogoblin was even a GOOD villain, cuz he seemed really stupid, honestly), but there IS technically precedent for some weird mystical all-powerful Spider-Man villain.
Yes but he was not all powerful....Judas as presented here was basically a god...DemoGoblin did have demonic powers but really isnt that much more powerful than many foes Spidey faces. He didnt phase through walls, alter reality, teleport, immune to attacks and could grow and shrink things on command. Judas before his retcon was Beyonder
I wish there was more Phelous cameos...
“I was the Jackal’s pawn, until I reached the other side of the board and got swapped out for a queen”
The origin of the Ultimate universe Spider-Woman
13:15: I was the pawn, then I reached the other side of the board and BECAME The Jackal!
10 years of the review of the first clone saga arc with Judy traveller
8:00-8:12 given it’s a superhero universe I’d say that’s an incredibly likely set of scenarios most people would come to
Judas Traveler: The JJ Abrams of villains
Oh my gosh! Judas Traveller is just a boring rip-off of The Beyonder! Beyonder also ran high-stakes contests of food and evil to understand human nature, but he was actually good at it because he stayed out of it! He got a mess of heroes and villains together, said “fight each other and I’ll give you whatever you want,” and then he sat back and watched! He didn’t actually fight anyone unless THEY picked a fight with HIM.
Also, the Beyonder didn’t make pretentious conclusions about good and evil, didn’t have a bunch of ill-defined supporting cast, and was a glowing cloud of alien energy so he actually seemed mysterious and alien, not a weirdo in “Mr. T jewelry over his Dracula cape!”
I can't believe nobody pointed it out but you have good spelled as food in the first paragraph
I thought Univeral Century Gundam and A Song of Ice and Fire were the inspirations for Something Always Wrong.
Here’s an idea I had to fix Judas Traveller:
He’s not some psychologist, he’s an entity from another dimension or plane of existence akin to Q or the Excalbians, who wishes to examine the nature of humans, who he has no experience with. He zeroes in on the concepts of good and evil. He goes to Ravencroft in order to choose Carnage as his avatar of evil due to all the murders he’s done, and thus ends up selecting Spider-Man to represent good and Venom the in between due to their relation to the already selected Carnage, switching between villains and antiheroes to examine evil and greyness after this initial storyline, the use of Venom and Carnage can prop up the initial story because it’s the 90s and they’re popular, then can be dropped from Traveler’s fixation later. Spider-Man however, Traveller becomes interested in him personally, akin to Q with Picard, and as such continues to challenge to bring out the truth of human nature, whether they have the capacity to be noble at their core or are all ultimately savage like Carnage.
Ben Reilly comes back in a story centered entirely around his return and ends up pulled into Peter’s business with Traveller, who finds the clone to be an interesting wrinkle in things like here.
The Scrier is another entity from the same plane of existence as Judas who doesn’t believe their kind should interfere with mortals and wants to put a stop to Traveller’s influence while also causing as little interference himself as possible.
I actually kinda feel the same way with the mandarin with iron man, I just don't see Iron man facing off against a man with ten magic rings, unless it's a cross over with Thor, or Doctor Strange. The mandarin just rubs me the wrong way
Seeing how this year marks the 30th anniversary of the Clone Saga, I decided to revisit this review once again. And considering what a rocky start (and that's putting it VERY mildly) this storyline was, is it really that surprising that the rest of this over-bloated and convoluted monstrosity of a "saga" turned out the way it did?
I can't get over the way you used the clip from Whose Line Is It Anyway.
linkara now knows what nostalgia critic goes through
15:29 Somebody has been listening to Franziska Von Karma for too long.
Ha. I thought the same thing
Nothing to do with the review (just saying that is awesome as always) But how do you feel about the Deadpool Corps comic mini-series Linkara? Just won a bunch of them (bunch = 7) and even tough im going to read it anyway... i want to know your opinion! :3
20:37 I kinda get it but its still annoying especially since in Universe its been 5 years since the 70s clone saga which is a long time sliding time scale or not so Ben had plenty of time to try to build an identity for himself. I prefer how it was handled in the 2009 Clone Saga Mini he kinda did that Issue 4 was when he was most angsty in the mini but it wasn't really about his existence more like how he's changed since leaving the Peter Parker life behind. He also compares himself to Peter but only after he's become Spiderman so it comes off as not being sure he can really fill the shoes of someone he respects.
edit: A good example being that in issue 4 his boss tries to set him up on a date with her friend whose nice enough but Ben really couldn't enjoy himself because she reminded him of Elizabeth Tyne a Ben Reily specific love interest rather then stir up memories of say Gwen instead and afterwards reflects on his time on the road
1:17
I'm pretty sure that picture is an homage to Battle Royale.
Battle Royale and Lord of the Flies
Paused on 18:10, saw Linkara's O face. Will never unsee that.
There’s a better one the 600th At4w episode.
Surely all you have to do is say a character wanting to look at the nature of evil just releases all the villains to examine the extent of their actions and motivations? (I've just jumped on to this episode so I don't have a clue what travelers intended purpose is beyond mystery) Sure you can say he wants to examine the source of their antagonism but even with a clone in the mix it's still one case study, I mean maybe examine the villains without him from carnage based psychosis to more logical doc oc then have the spidermen intervene that way having the guy analysing it either seeing it as outside interference or using it to the conclusion that the concept of true evil will at some point come into contact with a positive force but requires further investigation, as he only has that one example for multiple villains to measure against
You know, C.S. Lewis, in Out of the Silent Planet, suggested that fear (specifically the fear of death) was the root of all evil. That was handled a lot better, because we got to see that play out in the world the story took place in, which was rooted in Biblical allegory. Oh, and this "truth" was told by an ANGEL and not a weirdo who thinks ambiguity for the sake of ambiguity is compelling.This is just kind of depressing. There was the spark of a good idea here at the beginning of the Clone Saga, and even some good lines, but even at the very beginning (the good stories according to Linkara) it was bogged down by ill-conceived ideas about characters and themes.
Call me... Evelyn? That's an oddly specific name to use there Lewis. *strokes beard thoughtfully*
So MYSTERIOUS 🤣 also hi past Phelous 👋
I think the conversion rate is closer to 1 year in real life = 3 months in universe, though that's still a relatively short amount of time.
Peter: Some kind of ware house..... Don't call me that that! Call me Evaline!
27:58 don't mind me just placing a timestamp...
they now have 2 people using the name Spiderman - Peter and Miles.
I understand all the hate the clone saga, I guess. I honestly do but I've always liked it, it's my go to guilty pleasures spider-man stories. it brought us Ben Reilly who I love Ben Reilly A lot. Like when I started reading Spider-man as a kid Ben was spider-man, also love his scarlet spider and spider-man costumes.
I don't HATE the Clone Saga, I do hate some moments of it, but it was freakin' Shakespeare compared to Sins Past, One More Day, Reign, The Gathering of Five, Superior Spider-Man, Chapter One, Changes, The Final Chapter. But the Clone Saga was a mess, filled with missed opportunities, continuity screw-ups and atrocious use of the Jackal. As far as I'm concerned, the Clone Saga ended when Ben Reilly became Spider-Man, because he was supposed to be the real on. Of course, Marvel had to back out and then we got the illusion that the Clone Saga was still going on, so they could explain that the clone issues were still going on because Peter was the real one after all. Which brought us to the garbage that was "Revelations", and that I do hate, with a passion. It screwed up with ALL continuity, made no sense, and brought back Norman Osborn, who staining the Spider-Man story forever.