Ukraine: German General's Talk leaked - What did they say?
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- Опубликовано: 22 май 2024
- An alleged call between the German Air Force Commander and several of his officers including another general was leaked by Russian media on 1st March 2024. In this video we discuss the validity of the recording, its content that also includes references to US, UK and French support. The majority of the talks are about the Taurus system and how it could be used in Ukraine. This also covers training and mission planning requirements etc.
Cover Image: Amit Agronov / IDF Spokesperson's Unit, This file contains IDF content and released to Public domain by the Israeli Defence Forces Spokesperson's Unit., 18 August 2020.
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00:00 Intro
00:37 Context
02:01 Is it fake?
02:44 Russian Claims
03:21 Contents
08:57 Summary
#ukrainewar #germanshepherd #intelligence #leak #taurus #general
Update: It seems the German Ministry of Defense has confirmed that a conference was intercepted, yet not if the recording had been manipulated or not.
Thanks to @rlosable for the update.
Wenn sie das Gespräch manipuliert haben wäre das auch sehr scary. Es ist alles zusammenhängend und ohne Bruch. Ich war beim ersten durchhören bereits überzeugt dass das kein Fake ist. Die Sprache, die Fachausdrücke, die Gesprächsführung, die private Unterhaltung am Anfang “Hotelzimmer nicht too shabby”, das denkt sich keiner aus. Auch interessant: Deutschland hat 3 Patriot Radare geschickt, bestätigt waren bisher 2. Die F-35 Infrastruktur wird wesentlich teurer wegen schlechter Schätzung und der Inspekteur muss deswegen evtl. in den Ausschuss.
It absolutely not beyond the Russians to present an entirely genuine stolen conversation, but to edit one or two little details to fall in their favor. See the War Thunder forum USAF memo leaks, where the Ukrainian casualty estimates were presented as Russian casualty figures to more closely reflect official Russian Army figures and not the multiples of 1980s Soviet-Afghanistan War losses that they actually are 🙀
Interesting video, but were the slides supposed to change? I just saw the one the entire time.
@@finoxb944 Nah, originally, it stated "nothing to see here, move on." Then I realized I forgot to mention the part about civilians with American accent and added that.
Cmon dude, they would have said so straight away if it was manipulated.
The moment they talk about death by power Point, we know it was real. 🤣
Also "Ciao Kakao" right in the beginning. I doubt Russian intelligence even knows this phrase lol
Brilliant. I laughed hearty
I would not be curious, if this would be provided by an overhead projector :D
@@84erElessar not on WebEx. But they probably never even switched on presentation mode for this.
@@whatsgoingon71I meant the presentation for the MoD :D
Regarding the fake: German MoD has since confirmed the authenticity
Thanks, added, seems to have not confirmed if it had been tampered with or not though.
Бернарду ссы в глаза, он скажет роса.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized yes, though I doubt it has been heavily messed with and if it was done in a non-obvious way, it might take some time to figure it out. I agree with you, seems generally plausible. And based on what fake news the Russians have produced in the past, this would seem extremely subtle in comparison, if it wasn't genuine. No real shockers included, though still quite a bad leak.
@@user-rc6oo6tw9z Спасибо за ценный вклад.
Какая погода в Москве? Отопление работает?
@@user-rc6oo6tw9zIvan’s getting better at being funny at least
It's really about politics.
1. Having the necessary German forces in Ukraine to support the system is politically unacceptable.
2. Promising the system, but then only being able to deliver it in 6 months is politically unacceptable.
3. The system possibly not working/underperforming is politically unacceptable.
4. Since they can only deliver around 100 missiles anyway, which will not really have a strategic impact, why bother with the political inconvenience?
PUBLICLY politically unaceptable
We know by the US leake (confirm) and other various sources (not confirm but fit the previous and reality) that especial forces have been training, directing and operating missions on the field
Most are mark as "voluntiers", training and delivery of wepones is done months before the public anaucment and sometimes just illegally (poland equipment magically appear in ukrain several times, poland denies involvenent)
The eficiency and use of equipment is cover by propaganda pieces, the "ghost of kyev" only lastes by artifical propaganda alone.
Etc
Ah! Germans, when they lost WW1, blamed Politics! In reality, it's always about economics and military capability. For example:
1. without shifting to war economy, there's no chance that NATO nations will match Russia's military output. This is simply because, Russia itself has partially shifted to war economy. But, doing that will bring unbearable suffering to the German and EU economy that's already in recession and stagnation.
You can cope harder and harder with a thousands of nonsense, but please bring out facts about German and EU economy and military inventory and then talk about it.
2. And given the fact that, Russians pretty much managed to counter HIMERS, HARM and Storm-shadow, its only a matter of time that they'll also manage to counter this one. Again, you can name call and say a thousands of nonsense. But I remember how HIMERS and HARM halted Russian progress in its early days, and how that effectiveness basically disappeared/blunted after around 6 months of deployment.
Bring facts and you'll see it's always about economics and capability. Politics, is like the scapegoat that always takes the blame. In fact it's the professional scapegoat that takes the blame so that public can be distracted from the horrible facts underneith.
Would be perfectly fine if the chancellor would deny the delivery by your four points. Instead he appears scared by Putins treats while trying to depict himself as "diplomacy chancellor". He is an embarrassment for Germany and Nato.
@@gargoyle7863 the bigger issue is that the war is lost-this is whats known as throwing good chips after bad in gambling parlance
I don't know about Germans but in Sweden we often use English/British interchangeably, and it doesn't necessarily mean a conscious specification. It might just be lazy language.
yeah, same here, I just wanted to nitpick.
Yeah, this is also common in German (especially in oral conversations)
Typical Finn
I think that's a pretty wide-spread thing. I find myself doing it quite a bit as a Canadian.
English for the UK is very common amongst traditional intelligence
Its definitely not an “English” state secret that UK personnel modified Ukrainian aircraft to operate Storm Shadow missiles. That’s why the then defence minister of Ukraine sent the then defence minister of the UK a famous signed thank-you photograph of a modified plane taking-off carrying the UK missile 😹
It's has been denied over and over again. What are you talking about?
It's not so much the info of them being modified is a state secret but rather the process of conversion.
The fish and chips arseholes are keen for war.
The problem is, now that we get confirmation from top air force officers, NATO is basically at war with Russia. And the trouble is: It can be considered an offensive war, because Russia has not attacked NATO. In Germany that is against the Constitution Article 26. The most insane fact for me was that these officers acknowledge that sending 50-100 Taurus cruise missiles will not change the outcome of the war!!! So we are basically gambling with the existence of mankind, for… NOTHING!!! It is a complete BLUF. It is comparable with an inexperienced poker player that continues to bet money, although he has a shit-hand, until he goes all-in, because “otherwise all that money is gone”. This must have grave consequences in my opinion and a wake up call to all citizens who can clearly see how warnings that we are slowly sliding into World War III are in fact not that insane as portrayed.
@@patricklarsen8078
He means that they denied it's British personel, it's just people who happen to speak British-English and happen to be currently employed by the British armed forces who just happened to like modifying Ukrainian planes during their holidays.
Kind of like how the Dutch never trained any Ukrainian artillerymen on the Pzh2000, but they happened to meet Ukrainian artillerymen in civilian settings during routine excersizes and it just so happened they decided to talk shop, awaiting the point where the Dutch defense minister could slap some common sense into Flipflop-Scholz and authorise the system formally.
(something that I ensure you did NOT go down well in Den Haag at all)
Eine Brucke in Osten sounds like a war novel/movie
More like a Holywood movie ... and equally credible
"Die Brücke von Arnheim" / "A bridge too far"
Thanks for the update. The Finnish media seems to have made it a holy task not to disclose what was said in the conversation.
I'm curious - what percentage of Finns that you know support sending weapons to Ukraine? Here in Australia, I know of no-one who supports sending weapons (even those sympathetic to Ukraine, to the extent anyone cares) - yet well over 90% of journalists / politicians are completely sold on the idea of escalation.
@@ch.kv.On a personal side I know a lot of pacifists who oppose it but that's very different to what the majority of the population feel. The majority support weapons aid. After Macron's recent take on Ukraine - the possibility of sending ground troops - the overall reaction in comments on news articles and such was a bit scary if I'm honest. A lot of people would be willing to send troops it seems, even though we have a conscription based army.. The Finns trust the local media and politicians. There's very rarely a discrepancy between what they say and the people think. For good and worse.
Never in my lifetime have I seen the nation in such military fervor. Personally it makes me want to get out of this place. Australia could be nice...
@@janbo8331 If you are okay with not being able to get a place to live for an indefinite amount of time and high cost of living, then Australia is fine.
t. in Australia right now, for family reasons.
Personally, you should probably leave if you think that aiding allies is an escalation. We need less people who switch sides once Russia attacks.
@@ArchOfficialThere is no alliance agreements between Ukraine and Finland.
@@janbo8331 I said allies, not signatories to alliance agreements, which as we know from history are worth less than the paper they're written on.
We know it is a real military briefing as they are talking about PowerPoint
A few more points are for me as an learned office astonishing. They behave like good friends talking at an early barbecue drinking the first beer.
I think the biggest Takeaway is that they have said that they would want to hide their involvement if they delivered any Taurus
The point they make is that it's not about delivering them but actively planning a difficult mission or else Ukraine might just waste them and the PR stunt fails. We knowq that other systems like himars are fed by the US with target data.
It is basically hiding the fact that Germany is actively involved in the war although they know we are, because otherwise there would be no need to hide anything. They come up with several solutions like driving mission data by car into Poland and from there to the Ukraine. Or setting up a secure data link to the manufacturer instead of to the Air Force to be used for mission planning.
The most insane fact for me is that they are actively talking about how to “sell” this idea of “sending Taurus” to the Minister of Defense, by making sure they do not mention certain facts to him, because otherwise that would be a no-go. That is a live example of how the influence of the military-industrial complex works.
Basically one could say that this recording is an implicit declaration of war from NATO to Russia.
Not only are some of the NATO members idiots, they are also cowards
This exposes the proxy war to its core.
Most of the world always knew, except westerners who eat the propaganda
Now is confirmed, Nato give the orders, train the main, plan the attack, scan the battlefield, and ukrain give the manpower, to an extent.
Ukrain is a dagger used to stab russia.
I think it's already quite well known that Germany wants as little publicity as possible with its involvement in anything about Ukraine.
Thanks for the upload. Saving to listen later this evening.
Is the comment about people in civilian clothes speaking with American accents referring to the CIA?
Yeah, and regular military intelligence. It's not really a secret that they have people working at bases in Western Ukraine. Every now and then the Russians sling a cruise missile over to Western Ukraine and you coincidently get reports of 'British, French or American nationals' being repatriated. These are probably not legion personnel, as they represent concentrations of personnel from either country, rather than a largely mixed unit.
Whilst they can make sure that deaths are not reported as being in Ukraine, overal casualty numbers are not so easily suppressed. casualties within Western intelligence forces, have risen corresponding with the war.
OK. Thanks. I was curious about the comment.
Not specifically, but pretty much. Lots of Brits and other NATO dorks running around behind the lines training conscripts and feeding Intel.
Again, thanks.
Weinsteincia
Disregarding the possibility of an intentional leak, even if nothing of value was actually discussed, it is still a major loss of face for a large NATO member to get caught like that. What else could've been caught on tape that can have an impact on the war?
Considering this was likely just the compromised WIFI of the Singaporean hotel one of the callers was staying at: Not much.
@@MajinOthinus It would be mistake to only assume that. Especially when surveilling high level target, failsafes are put in place...compromised wifi is the easiest to do even by script kiddies. Better to do a full system audit.
Oh sweet Summer Child if you would know that for some years the boss of German cyber security was… more or less obviously an FSB asset.
It could have been leaked intentionally, there is no accord in german government about the whole idea.
Germany is a free speech democracy, there aren’t actual state secrets which can be revealed and no opinion that wasn’t once voiced by at least one stupid person. The pros and cons of using Taurus have been publicly discussed for months now. Hearing "nothing of (additional) value" from the actual experts on the weapon system is hardly embarrassing.
Military officers discussing capabilities of military equipment and how it could be used in a war? SHOCKING!
I mean for Germans, it kinda is.
In germany, planning a war of aggression is a crime. Now I am sure, the germans and their military has highly classified wargames and scenarios planned out in some drawer in the case that germany is attacked, but talking about it in an internet zoom call (or something similar) instead of in the headquarters face to face is a nono. I expect that somebody will have to resign about this, and I doubt it will be Scholz or Pistorius, as they seem to have been the planned target of being duped in this case...
tbh even though most of the E.U and NATO cheered on a literal nazi veteran, germany talking about military production and such will cause awareness, that's how much NATO cannot trust itself
@@tomtom34bit’s literally a crime? In America, it’s Tuesday. NATO does war games every year and deep attacks have to be considered.
Shocking is the lack of security
Looks like sadly the slides are stuck, contentwise once again great vid
Always great stuff from this channel.
Glad you enjoy it!
Using a dial-in connection to Cisco Webex from a Singapore Hotel Room is a major security failure (For discussing at least sensitive information). At least there seems to be not much knowledge about HOW unsafe it is. If I am not mistaken, this even breaks the (relative) safety of VPN connections. Otherwise, they don't talk about information there, that aren't discussed already in civilian channels, maybe they had not been aware how it can be twisted by Russia if THEY are caught talking about it.
It doesn't even require the webex, the hotel room itself could have been bugged...so that even if they use the proper secure hardware they could have the conversations compromised via advanced acousticSurveillance. Especially if a state-actor like Ru or CN are behind it.
Is it sensitive though? About the only part of that I couldn't have told you outright in equal or greater detail, was exactly how many Taurus the Bundeswehr would be capable of delivering and even there, I would have guessed within 50 pieces. And I don't have access to any classified information.
P.S keep in mind this happened to Medvedev while at the G20 talks in the UK during his tenure as President, theRussians had to throw out the entire presidential encryption system complex (as they refer to it)...simply because it had been compromised by theGCHQ when Dmitri ignorantly used it in a compromised environment i.e. the event lounge, even without their physical access to the actual device.
No, but if you followed the German discussion, the information was already around (contrary to Scholz claims). The only tiny surprise in it is the rant about the German reconnaissance office not being able to able to deliver more accurate information about the air defenses of the crimea bridge. They actually have satellites for exactly that task and that should be able to achieve this. I hope it is only a common process thing in the bureaucracy and not a technical limitation.
The US atleast, dumps all kinds of classified minimal sensitivity/deceptive/irrelevant information into more vulnerable servers, to bait cyber attacks.
This
1. Allows them to assess how better to protect against major cyber attacks
2. Helps keep threats focused away from more sensitive assets.
3. Gives the enemy a false sense of achievement.
The only problem with this, is it hurts stupid peoples morale in the west, and boosts the Sino-Muscovite's morale(Of course state media in those places can just make shit up, and achieve the same effect on public morale)
The text slides are stuck.
Thanks for a very informative video. This is the kind of reporting that's needed. Facts is what's needed, and balanced presentation of fact is absolutely necessary.
Glad it was helpful!
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualizedI second that! You are doing the good job, German media has abandoned decades ago....
Jesus MH(n)V, how could you be a pro RusKrainAmeriGerman Demopublican?! I trusted you!
"Demopublican" lol
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized I originally thought of ‘Republocrat’ but that sounded dumber
@@looinrims "Republocrat" sounds like something that could exist.
lol
soziocapitalist Bolshofascists with ecolibertarian ideas, all of them
The German Army confirmed that it's authentic. Of course, they had just to ask the concerned officers.
"If This Is Fake It's Scary Good." 😨 Good thing you were right and they had to admit it's true
All the things you're accused of being, at least they agree you're a pro! thanks for the analysis
Thanks for this! It’s nice to hear a German speaker discuss it.
No concern discussed about “hitting Russia”, which is a lot of the hot air discussed in the government corridors.
Technically the "eastern bridge" is just an illegal building on Ukrainian soil
Because that "concern" is, as you so fittingly said, just a load of hot air.
as in, you're not "concerned" with a possible response if you hit them? Or you're not "concerned" that they're serious about hitting Russia (even though they were serious enough to have this private conversation)...@@MajinOthinus
It's just a pre-tense under the assumption that Russia will only escalate if the west does. Obviously there are conventional and nuclear strike plans for the eventual war with Russia.
@@frododiddledeebipedybopedy9840 He means that the concern is not a real concern. Which it isn't; Russia has and will escalate at their own pace no matter what other countries do. Once they're at the brink of losing (or honestly, winning) and Putin realizes the economy and his power will go down with it, they will probably do a last attempt at a big escalation, like opening more fronts with NATO or a nuclear first strike if all of their conventional capability has been exhausted.
Either way, it's not seen as smart to give them more reasons to escalate sooner.
die Aufnahme ist wohl vom 19.2.24 und soll wohl echt sein, was ich mir schon gedacht habe den BW Denglish slang bekommt die KI nicht hin 😄
Den Slang bekommt aber ein Sprecher hin. Die KI legt dann nur nen Filter drüber. Heißt nicht dass das hier so war aber unmöglich ist das bei weitem nicht.
@@bcfuerst naja, die Aufnahme ist wohl echt und ganz ehrlich dieses Denglisch ist schon extrem spezifisch, klar ist das möglich aber als ich mir dasgestern Abend angehört habe war mir eigentlich ziemlich klar das es echt sein muss.
Ein Hotelzimmer ist ein verbotener Ort, Dienstgeheimnisse zu besprechen. Ob es sich um Dienstgeheimnisse gehandelt hat, ist mindestens diskutabel. Wird hier zugestimmt, handelt es sich um Kriminelle.
Sie müssen evt. den Kanzler informieren in vollem Umfang. Nicht erwähnt wurden mögliche Schüsse auf den Kreml.
Thanks MHNV
This gets leaked and they look at everyone elses fingers!!!
How annoying!
Thank you for the non-political, non-denominational, non-extreme anything translation and assessment.
So, if I understand correctly. This was a high level discussion on capabilities and time frames, prior to preparing a briefing for a head of state.
In short, business as usual, nothing to see here, no smoking gun, nothing that should provoke or in other ways require a responce from "potential adversaries" (Russia).
So the leak is meant to scare people, who have no clue of how government and the military work.
The Russians know that too.... the important questions are: "How long have they been doing it and what else have they overheard?"
Exactly. Just as all Russian "leaks" and "special information". It's just information operations.
@@asator2746The leak apparently happened due to an unsafe WIFI connection in a Singaporean hotel.
So, likely not much more.
Of course BAMAD will now do an extensive investigation to make sure it was only the unsafe WIFI which was at fault though.
yes this was just a normal conversation and avdiivka is a small tiny village without significance. We already know the nato cheerleader bullsh bingo
@@TaCC2 Avdiivka had a pre-war population of around 40,000 and does not lead to any major GLOCs. So yes, Avdiivka is a tiny town, perhaps not village, without significance.
Did I overhear it, or did you not talk about the "American Accents" line that is in the slide? I think it was the most interessting. If somebody can give me a time stamp i would be grateful.
Yeah, I added the part in the slide later since I didn’t record that part and noticed during editing.
Good analysis.
Can anyone provide a source or link to the original audio?
It's on Russia Today but in my country the access is blocked to this site unless you use VPN which I don't use.
There's tons of people who posted it on twitter, just try your luck with google, but honestly, it's not all that interesting. The most interesting thing about it is how embarrassingly bad the communciation security was. 90% of what they talk about is public knowledge or can be found out with a simple search.
Concise and to the point. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
When was the call recorded? You mention you think it was multiple months old. But allegedly it was recorded on February 19th? Or was that just the date when the transcript leaked to the press for the first time?
Check when the minister regected Taurus to ukrian.
Then substract 1-4 months depending your guess
It was recorded during the singapore airshow so somewhere between 19th and 26th feburary
I checked a few articles, and those who mention a date say it was indeed recorded February 19th.
Can it be the video is broken? I see different preview images than the one the video shows. Luckily the audio is great. :)
What were the "moon depots" referred in the recording?
Wouldn't you like to know
It's an abbreviation. "die Munition", "die Mun", pronounced moon with a short vocal.
@@kurtscholz7431 🤯Ach! Natürlich! Thanks! Too little creativity from my part
- thought it was NATO-lingo auf English
- bad sound quality, echt schwierig manchmal da 🙂
'As good as Winchester' that cracked me up. Anyone know (reliably) the origin of the phrase?
I think it originated as a codeword during the Vietnam War.
Winchester is a codeword used by jet pilots to say "out of ammunition"
Maybe the bundeswehr can busy themselves with providing support and defense for paramedics and ambulances that are attacked by violent mobs in the streets.?
Hallo! I have one question: What will hapend if Russia cancel agreement from 1990 "Two Plus Four" (Zwei-plus-Vier-Vertrag) ?
Nothing…
The German arm forces is such a cluster f rn
the German military invented gas chambers and concentration camps. they LOST two world wars. German military must be the most incompetent military force on this planet.
not just the germans mate , australia cant organize a root in a red light district either atm
Yeah, really gone downhill since their glory days.
...I'm talking about the victory at Waterloo, of course. What did you think I meant?
@Machwiee most of us let our armies soften. You wouldn't believe the state of Canadian forces. But things change.
@@Oberon4278 dont ask fanta
"death by power point". This was a hard lesson I learned when I became an officer in the US Army. Wish I had stayed a sergeant first class (oberfeldwebel or hauptfeldwebel)
Aren’t Seregeants also bombarded with PowerPoint?
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized only if they work in a staff position like battalion or higher. I was fortunate enough to serve as a team leader, squad leader, and platoon sergeant during my enlisted career.
@@LA_Commander thanks, yes, that makes sense.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Yes, that's also one of the reasons I decided to retire as a Captain. Because if I had made Major, I would never again be able to be with the troops at the company level. I would have been stuck as a staff officer at battalion or brigade and I didn't have the patience for that.
Best guess on how it was done? Meeting included virtual attendees so it could be intercepted? Someone in the room recorded and leaked? Room was bugged?
Could you maybe do a Video about the Masters Program of Potsdam University: War- and conflict studies or similar courses of different universities? I am really considering studying there, and I guess a lot of people would be interested too
The context isn't something very important so i don't know if German commanders were relax about it. But it is still a quite high level meeting which must be secure. The amount of intelligence failures from NATO countries is quite worrying especially US failures are just ridiculous, a janitor like officer having access to classified information about NATO allies..
As a supplier we use the Bundeswehr Webex system regularely in calls.
The Bundeswehr uses an customized (probably somewhat outadated) version of Webex, which is configured to dial-in by default. At least for guest session.
Therefore, it was not the participants fault that a dial-in was used from Singapore. He had no choice.
It is a mistake to use this Webex at all.
Webex should not be used when discussing matters of national security, and certainly no public WiFi in a foreign country hotel should be used. This was incredibly negligent.
@@LeutnantJoker Ist das gesagt worden, er habe sich via Wifi verbunden?
Ich vermute das liegt an Webex, nicht an der Art der Verbindung.
WiFi ist nicht das Problem, wenn man eine Ende zu Ende Verschlüsselung verwendet und man die Vertraulichkeit der Endpunkte überprüfen kann. Die Generäle sollte man hier mal entsprechend schulen.
@@LeutnantJokerthey use a custom version which is valid for use with confidental data. Webex not the issue here
Obviously, The "Rote Kapelle" is back in action!
I love Red Orchestra 2
Still plenty of NVA left-overs in the upper echelons of the Bundeswehr who lean towards the East, especially in a US vs RU conflict like this.
@@mnk9073
Relax, they're not SPD-Die Linke politicians, they won't sell out to Germany's enemies wholesale.
It ended not well for Rote Kapelle ;-)
I would like to listen to it but I don't find it. Do you have a link?
Da haben wir ihn ja... Den Grund warum Taurus NICHT gesendet wurde...
Der Kreml hat dem Kanzler gedroht das zu veröffentlichen
Und? Jetzt ist es veröffentlicht, also hat Scholz keinen Grund mehr ihn nicht zu schicken, hat ja nichts mehr zu verlieren. Das ist doch dämlich! Es wurde veröffentlicht weil dadurch Scholz der Lüge überführt wird. Er hat gemeint um Taurus einzusetzen braucht es deutsche Soldaten in der Ukraine, in dem Gespräch wird gesagt dass es auch ohne geht (braucht dann halt längere Ausbildungszeit). Der Leak blamiert Scholz UND die Bundeswehr und hätte einige unserer fähigsten Leute den Job kosten können, wenn der Verteidigungsminister nicht die Finte gerochen hätte...
planning an attack on a civilian structure ?
If Germany plans to attacks civilian infrastructure, it should be like a norm for NATO basically. Because German is like the sanest of their ilk. Am surprised they were actually planning the kind of insanity the rest of the world is fed up with.
Reminds me of how Israel killed it's own captives and we keep saying they use guided weapons & obey the rules of wars. Funny Hahahahah.............................
If everyone is complaining you are supporting someone else then you are doing it right!
I too am concerned by how way too many damn staff officers using a damn redchinese phone.
В *бою ПОТЕРЯЛ ЧАСТЬ СРЕДНЕГО ПАЛЬЦА* 🤘??? 😳🫣 А Германия *хочет отправить на Украину РАКЕТУ ТАУРУС* ♉ ????🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯😮😮😮😮😮
Ein bisschen sehr peinlich, dass der deutsche Satz welcher das ganze Video lang eingeblendet wird sogar gleich zwei Fehler hat...
für dich vielleicht, aber du kannst das sicher besser.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Bei Korrekturlesen wären die zwei Fehler sicher aufgefallen, die sich das hineingeschlichen haben!
Ich habe 2 Diplomarbeiten geschrieben und mehrere Bücher geschrieben bzw. mitgeschrieben, bei letzteren gabs meist 2-5 Korrekturleser/Mitschreiber etc. wir haben da oft noch Fehler bei der x-ten Runde gefunden.
Und das war eine last-minute addition.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Von den Büchern habe ich bisher nur Gutes gehört! Ein Grammatik- und ein Tippfehler diskreditieren Dich auch nicht gleich als Historiker und Videoproduzenten! Einer der Besten darin Informationen gut verdaulich zu verpacken und ein paar Scherze auch noch hineinzuschleichen. Wenn ich einen Nerv getroffen habe, dann entschuldige bitte. Dass die Folie gerade im deutschen Satz zwei Fehler hat, wenn ein Thema des Videos die Authentizität und Glaubwürdigkeit einer deutschsprachigen Aufnahme und eines Transkripts war, hat doch einen Hauch von Situationskomik. Und wer den Schaden hat braucht für den Spott nicht zu sorgen, also nimm meinen Kommentar bitte nicht persönlich!
@@KrokLP "Wenn ich einen Nerv getroffen habe" scheint so, aber ich denke dass hängt auch mit dem Medium zusammenn. Man weiß ja wie sich manche Leute im Internet verhalten. Nach einer Zeit nimmt man da wahrscheinlich automatisch eine Verteidigungshaltung ein.
What volume are we talking about. How l9ng does it take to produce 10?
They already have those numbers, that's not the issue. those things need to be programmed, prepared and the Ukrainians need to figure out how to put them on F16, which is not by design ready to fire a Taurus. All problems that can be solved but take a bit of time.They even mention in the call that the Germans are likely overestimating some of the time involved since they say the Ukrainians are more high tech than Germany at this point and have so far managed to use high tech systems better than anybody expected and to greater effect than anybody in the west ever thought possible.
I cannot find the original full audio. Could someone help out here?
ruclips.net/video/JDTYp7VtmXU/видео.htmlsi=Z3lhaSpJypp38j88
I'm pretty sure any comment posting a link would get auto-deleted.
@@MajinOthinus never mind. It was linked in the description.
I'd like to point out that the original source had only 96k views up till now, posted yesterday at 16:00.
The reaction time was quite good.
What a brave new world we live in.
@@maxdelaserna9540 I think the low views are mostly because it's an absolute hassle to dig up using just a short google search.
There's a lot of news about it, but basically none that directly link to the original audio.
ruclips.net/video/AC93hTdtTxA/видео.html
It’s very encouraging that such discussions occur and not surprising.
At the same time I find the security breach highly alarming.
😮😳
For a leak, this is a very normal conversation on possible future solutions. No biggy.
Germans should be proud their leaders are working hard for them.
You can be certain that there is an information in there that somebody wanted to make public
Why in Singapore?
Was there an arms expo or other 'sales opportunity'?
Does STE or Hanwha make components that have to be used to fig-leaf German direct cooperation? Does the missile have to be modified to prevent it's (smaller fuel tank, autopilot exclusion zones...) use on targets in Russia proper?
Mission Data Files can include terrain contour elevations which require multiple imaging angles to passively generate, using optical IMINT. Radar is better/quicker (longer slant range) and the Americans have it because the power requires a nuclear capability which Germany having is apparently anathema.
These MDF _also_ then effect the radar LOS lanes and likely onboard ECM suite preprogramming, as a function of emitter thumbprints of radar threats overlooking the route.
Passive Stealth is not universal. Sometimes, it needs to be helped, in certain bands, especially on throwaway munitions where you can crunch the techniques generator by placing it next to the warhead but not the coatings or materials of the skin. Which means you are potentially throwing away RF absorber performance with every weapon which is shot down or crashes, without wardet.
Replicating exact formulation is still an issue but if you have a competent (ironically 'German trained, back in the 1950s with Von Ardenne's crew) molecular chemistry department not impossible to emulate, at least for the purposes of determining better siting techniques and operating band/waveform responses to threats at particularly aspects in a given clutter zone.
Mission planning assistance here is going to be about ELINT assets (RC-135 etc.) being present during the raids and noting the success/failure of Russian GBAD and networking in engaging low level Storm Shadow attacks. The Germans, despite being nominally five eyes participants, will not have access to this 'raw product'. Unless they _bring the Americans in_ by giving up their own systems RCS performance capabilities and we design for them routes and timings which both sides then simulate to an agreeable shot count vs. risk level.
This is the same thing as handing over the Taurus specs which will destroy it's popularity on the export market (even beyond what Mad Mommy Merkel did by further curtailing German arms exports via her pet, von der Leyen).
i.pinimg.com/originals/b9/20/a0/b920a0c0044f0ba2251d59553f275d84.jpg
The best place to attack a bridge is the abutments on either shore as damage to the structural load paths here and the first support pylons can render the bridge 'unrooted' in a way that takes many weeks to fix, during which it is untethered, waving about with wind/sea action.
What a lot of people don't understand is that, while these tactical ALCMs may have 450kg 'equivalent' warheads, their actual ammunition weight is much less. AGM-158 has a 432kg 'class' WDU-42 warhead but its filler is only about 250lbs in a high-density penetrator casing. Some missiles, like Storm Shadow, augment this with a further BROACH fronted, which uses a precursor charge to breakup hardened target surface and enable passage of the warhead.
Together, these are designed to achieve maximum effect inside a contained volume, like an underground fuel storage tank, a C2 Bunker, a Hardened Aircraft Shelter, Telecomms landline node, railhead/switching station. Or a bridge.
But even with HTSF/MEF fusing, the missiles have very little pass-through time in which to achieve optimized blast inside a bridge pier, unless you literally hit them on the long, thin, axis. They will come out the other side, blow up in the open air and make a nice pretty hole in the pier while doing most (if any) damage as heave to the bridge deck.
You are almost always going to be better off aiming for the expansion joints on the roadbed, above the pier anchors so the weight of the bridge on the weakened deck joints separates them from the pier. It's cheap it's quick, working by distorting the decking, twisting the steel beams in their concrete bed as the decking sags away from it's moorings. It also requires a popup attack by at least two missiles, per joint.
Repair to this damage usually requires the replacement of the pier cap under the roadway before relifting a replacement deck segment. Again, this is a weeks long process, depending on how modular the bridge setup is and how long the interval between piers.
Hitting the abutment requires penetrating a wingwall, designed to protect the bridge seat from erosion by tidal action and, by sheering/crushing any piles in the facing slope, remove the backing which prevents sluffing of the abutment.
If you damage this area, as the anchor to the bridge, then the entire area may need to redrilled, packed with fresh piles and stabilizing mud and the bridge seat wall replaced.
That is a good, six month long, process.
Most tactical cruise missiles _do not have_ the warhead size or filler weight to get past the wingwall and deep into the abutment before blowing out the seat wall.
Heavyweight systems, like BGM-109 and Kh-101, being bomber/submarine/ship launched, do.
BGM-109 Blk.III having the WDU-36 with a 700lb warhead emulating a 2,000lb 'equivalent' (BLU-109, 1,600lb bomb). While the former AGM-86C Block 1 CALCM, had a 1,500kg 'equivalent' warhead on a missile whose total weight is only 3,850lbs.
nuke.fas.org/guide/usa/bomber/calcm-evolution.gif
The point here is that cruise missiles are not airborne Terminator wonder weapons. They have to have mission planned flight paths, synthetic aimpoint generation for target aspect-X to cue the imaging seeker to a given fractal pattern and weaponeering considerations for both the missile survivability equipment programming (decoys and jammer) and total loadout/fusing/targeting redundancy considerations to achieve a given strike outcome.
All of which is publically known, in a generalist sense. None of which takes into account the reality of moral absentia inherent to Sehnsucht nach Osten.
Which is to say the European's endless greed in refusing to solve their own energy/food/raw materials problem while taking on endless hordes of low-function third world populations to increase their already absurd, 800 million, population.
This 'Eastwards Longing' can be thought of as both an attempt to take Ukraine's resources and to isolate/surround/infiltrate and undermine the Russian Federation, whose food/energy/mineral wealth is ten times greater yet.
Russia knows this and while willing to do business on a good deal basis, will not yield more than what it already did, in terms of the former Warsaw Pact states. To do so would be to put Russian Federations interior at risk to endless CIA/MI-6 level (Maidan Coup) level compromise. As well as to place their western landbased deterrent at less than five minute risk to counterforce suppression by PrSM and LRHW (from Aegis Ashore Mk.41 VLS) and from direct, nuclear, decapitation of Moscow and the Perimeter sites in the Urals mountains.
To avoid this '0D30' risk would require putting the entire Russian strategic nuclear force on high alert, under fully automated, 'Dead Hand' control. Wherein a series of nuke flash sensors, seismic detectors and communications interrupts (any or all of which can also have natural or accidental correlate events) causes a RUSSIAN SKYNET type response, ending the planet.
What we are doing in Ukraine is the equivalent of what Russia did, in Cuba, in 1962. But what isn't often commented upon is that Russia started the Cuban Missile Crisis because the U.S. had placed Jupiter missiles in Turkey and Italy, where they were separated from Russia by 700-1,500nm. If the Russians allowed Ukraine to enter the Western SOI, NATO would only be 200nm from her western ICBM silos and 500nm from Moscow.
And just like we have the Monroe Doctrine and Roosevel Correlate by which we actively block foreign interests from the Western Hemisphere of the Americas, so too do the Russians feel a need to have buffer states around their heartland.
An understandable condition, given the vicious and constant attempts to undermine Russia from the moment the USSR collapsed. When we sent in the FBI to help hunt down the Russian Mafia and instead helped them almost take over the Russian financial system. Sent in Corporate America to break up Soviet State run Entreprises and ended up nearly starving to death the Russian people as we both 'modernized' (bought out) the Russian energy sector and strip mined her industrial base.
Russia accepted losing the Cold War as a means to allow Europe to reintegrate after 50 years in which BOTH the USA and USSR sat on the chests of the little idiot revanchist Napoleonic city states of Europe did not and could not start another war.
Twenty years after they pulled back, to take care of their own interests, the Russians are strong and the Europeans are right back to starting wars which they expect the U.S. to fight for them.
The simple fact is that we do not have a need to be up in Russia's grill. And we are accelerating a process which could easily escalatory spiral into a General War condition whereby ALL our assets, mostly overseas, could be equally subject to sabotage and disruption.
Which is flatly not in the U.S. interests. Even if we manage to duck the nuclear confrontation which the EU seems to be chasing like the fools they still are.
There was a time when, different approaches for different cultures, the Russians and Americans were still the true big kids on the block who kind've cooperated to keep order in the neighborhood by fighting according to a larger set of rules.
The Europeans have _never_ been this way, mostly because they still follow a Greco-Roman political model and thus do not have the gravitas of one state, one budget, one enormous population to protect and succor. They are eternal teenagers. And like adolescents, they will get themselves into trouble which puts the adults at risk to peel their sorry asses out of.
Unless there are huge misdirects in the political posturing going on (creating insecurity at the nation state level to force globalism as UN run mafia confidence trick by the hugely immoral wealth class...), I honestly don't know if we're going to make it out of this.
There is nothing at all which is useful to the destruction of the Kerch bridge beyond escalation for it's own sake. Russia is back-to-wall in it to win it. They will not stop their campaign to control Ukraine and if it comes to it, they will end the political risk of continued Western violation of Neutrality by ending Kiev in a blast of nuclear fire.
At that point, we will have ONE chance to realize we have overstepped our boundaries. Because if we strike, even conventionally, with our overwhelming air and sea power, to punitively put down the Russians, they will respond with strategic nuclear strikes on CONUS and Europe, from very close range, with submarines and bomber launched cruise, taking out as many airbases and related BMC2 defense sites as possible while decapitating London and WDC, outright.
We will respond with our own nukes, ending the modern world. Or we back down and allow Ukraine to fall.
Losing the war before we fight it.
Either way, Russia has strategic interests that DO NOT allow for Ukrainian choice in this matter. And if we don't recognize this, we risk EOC at best and ELE as a real possibility.
Fail to understand this, as the real ethics issue behind such blase` discussions of aiding one side of two warring states while pretending you are not subject to consequences, and you are no less guilty than these German officer class idiots.
NATO being a jobs program for generals and their Caddy's, this is understandable. You have to stash the charismatic jocks _somewhere_, after high school.
But you have families and a life. So what is your excuse?
So, who recorded it, and why? And how was this leaked to general public. And BTW It seems biggest fuss was about correct fact which Olaf Sholtz stated: German military will have to be directly involved and that opens final anathema of post war Getman politics.
The audio states that there is a track without GER/NATO involvement in mission planning, it would just take longer to set up.
@@mortmortannon6640 Also breaking german law.
@@tomtom34bThe German Military is likely a lot more knowledgeable on German law (about the military), than you.
@@AnonD38 That is almost certainly true for sure, the "German Military" most likely is, but what about certain individuals who are members of "The German Military", though? hahahaha
@@tomtom34b There is no breaking of german law involved. You might refer to the russian narrative that these officers were "planning an attack on Russia" as in an act of war by Germany. This is nonsense. The officers only discuss use cases for Ukraine as operator. The Inspector explicitly states that german personnel can't be involved.
Besides that, the mentioned bridge is by german and international law on Ukrainian territory.
Best summary, thank you. Subscribed.
Always impressed by the naive wokeness in Germany
Even if it is genuine, the next issue is that the opinions of Bundeswehr officials and officers are scarcely expert.
How many Taurus KEPD 350 does Germany have in inventory currently?
This os not public information. We know that originally around 600 were bought.
It is a bit of an open secret that about 150 are useable today.
We do not know how many others are in storage, and how many have been used in training or damaged in any way since the purchase.
@@Lonestar24 so the rest degrade so much in storage. They don’t even have enough to defend themselves? Unreal.
M16 released to retaliate for Olafs comments about UK soldiers in Ukraine, which we all already knew.
That doesn't make sense. In the leak it is again confirmed the UK has personnel in Ukraine, why would they want to put that out again? Scholz didn't even say that, he said "gemany can't be as involved in the targeting stage of the cruise missiles as france and the UK" plus "i won't sent german soldiers to ukraine" people read that as "british soldiers are in ukraine" but he didn't say that literally. So if british intelligence leaks a web call in which it is literally said the brits have boots on the ground as retaliation for Scholz's comments, that would be dumb.
My only question about this tape is Why Were They Talking On An UNSECURE LINE. I would expect people at this level to understand their vunerabilities.
Been a while since I’ve seen anyone from the bundeswehr in a peaked cap
"Feind hört mit " is men inmiddels kennelijk vergeten.
Could they modify a patriot missile to deliver a plus-size sea-mine depth charge?
Don’t underestimate your enemies, never. This is just dumb.
We have spent the last 3 years telling ourselves how evil and stupid Russia is.
Interesting.
There are 3 more aspects I would point out from the audio (I'm native speaker too):
1. There is mentioned that one of the speakers selected 3 targets, 2 ammunition deposits and the bridge
2. It's 2 or 3 times mentioned that the data will be brought to Poland by car in a few hours. Meaning this is a safe way. I understand from the conversation that Poland is the place where things in Ukraine are organised.
3. It's mentioned the Ukrainians have all the satellite images. I'm not sure if it is meant they have them all the time from the west.
Ah, and very important: Correct me if I'm wrong, they confirm the English and french operate their systems and Germany don't want, due political reasons, do it, because that means direct implication and that is a red line that is set from political power
Germany has a 2 plus 4 Vertrag (treaty). Read article 2 for that matter. Germany has accepted a treaty that restricts the use of their weapons.
Its interesting that military personnel have no opinion if what they are doing is within international law.
If it's true that Germans have been talking it may happen. When Macron talks rest assure nothing will.
Hätte jemand den Link zur Audio-Datei für mich, oder könnte hinweisen, wo ich sie finden könnte?
Ist aus youtube gebannt worden, zu gefährlich für eine Demokratie. War aber da, konnte man runterladen... Scheiße, wer kloppft da jetzt an meiner Türe mitten in der Nacht um halb drei? Bin gleich wieder da... 😛
where is the original recording?
Ask Spore ministry of Defence as the call took place in Spore
Thanks for that insight Bernhard. But I do wonder...is this some Austrian 4D chess? I'd better check in with Oberst Reisner. =)
Austria is effectively a Russian ally and has done their damnest to aid them short of sending THEM equipment and money, so I would not be surprised if it was.
The only statements Germany has made about it is that they're investigating and it's possible the recording was altered, so it's not off the books.
I love the amount of time Germany spends trashing itself in this 😂
I "like" the way the creator of the video says that the 38-minute recording of the discussion held by senior German military officials is true, it cannot be fake news, but at the same time he states that it cannot be considered threatening or dangerous for Russia because that, guess what, it's just a kind of colloquial discussion between some people who were sharing their innocent opinion about how the Taurus cruise missiles could be used to destroy Russian targets. Well, didn't these boys have anything better to do? ...it seems to me that it is an elegant attempt to wash away the tarnished image of Germany!
😮
Conversation between real generals ain’t that much different from armchair generals.
There was a line in the script which I cut that noted "that is stuff generals and armchair generals" do all the time :)
Epic analysis. Your English is fantastic. I think I heard you first mistake today "On first March" should be "On March first." I'm not slagging you. This was brilliant analysis.
British English puts the day first.
@BigTiBu normally you would have an of in there, though.
E.g.
On the first of march.
@@deth3021 American's do that too. I used the shorter example. HIS ENLIGHS IS STELLAR but since he has perfected it likely he wants to to shown if he made a rare mistake.
@@deth3021 A lot of the time, but not necessarily always. If you wanted to be very proper and formal, yes, but a lot of the time it either gets slurred or left out entirely in common speech so that it does become "first March" or "second February" etc. When written out, it makes less sense, but when spoken aloud it can sound quite natural in a full sentence.
@DerAlleinTiger not to me at least, sounds all kinda wrong leaving out the of,
I mean shorten it to more of an o than an of sure
From Russian perspective, how can this be forgiven after WW2 ?
"achtung!, ze Luftwaffe has sprung ze leak" - J. English 😂
What is the Russian word for Retribution?
Just asking...😕
Sarmat!
@@donotneed
That is funny. But I anticipate something a little more, uh, covert.
@@ConradAinger well, you must remember that no matter how hard the Russians try to poison someone with Nov i chuck, they are never able to kill anyone! So it will have to be something else!😂😂😂
The most important revelation for some is hearing clearly that the NATO support implies involvement on the ground or using surveillance assets and personnel - direct involvement, to a level that is unacceptable to the large public. Too bad most still don't hear or don't understand.
I speak German and have listened to the recording.
It seems to me that their general consensus is that delivering the missiles is not what they really want to do.
They certainly don't want to do too much in helping setup combat missions.
They seem to have a clear picture of their "red line" .. and supply & use of these missiles seems to step over that red line.
That said, it also seems that if they receive explicit direct orders they know how to get the systems built & supplied.
> It seems to me that their general consensus is that delivering the missiles is not what they really want to do.
I had more the impression of them being mostly ambivalent / neutral about it.
I wish politicians would be more straightforward but also listen to their defence staff.
this was the Navy Chief (top command) of Germany talking 2 years ago, got fired by the politicians because they didn't like his opinion on what Germany should do about Russia and Ukraine:
ruclips.net/video/SN4ajbhYMcY/видео.html
You can guess that the current defence staff of Germany listen to the politicians and not the other way around.
The whole NATO cannot outproduce Russia in artillery shells (and cruise missiles I guess) and at the same time preparing to fight China. I don't think Europe will even try to resist China becoming the top power in the next big war.
Why not play it for us?
It's true, in germany for us , england and Britain is pretty much the same. It doesn't really matter if you refer to britain or England specifically.
Angry scots, irish and welsh comments are incoming 😂
Taking this matter over Webex? Pistorius should resign like right now.
Most of the time generals talk, I assume it's about fishing.
I don't understand the value of targeting the Kerch Bridge except as a PR stunt, there is another supply route available and one being worked on by Russia right now. Nobody expects Ukr to sever the land bridge to Crimea this long after the counter offensive.
wo kann ich das original hören?
In der Videobeschreibung auf den ersten x Link unter den sources
@@sinlos33 Danke
Is there a Tl;dr ?
That is the tldr.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualizedYou mean tldl - Too long, didnt listen.
Fast jet performance is a channel to look at
Good summary. The recoring was probably done on an unsecured smartphone.
Nah, they likely just compromised the hotel's WIFI and then did a man in the middle attack. It's not like any sensitive information was discussed here anyway.
One of the guys in the audio was in a airshow in another country so they used like some platform to talk on. Forget which but was like Skype level😂
@@MajinOthinus Secure communication shouldn't stand or fall with the link layer being compromised or not. There is a big step from "rogue access point" or "unsecured WiFi" to "literally listening in on conversations". A VPN - or even just proper use of PKI - on the layers above could have easily mitigated this, so it's really worrying to me that apparently this isn't standard for military personnel.
@@nibblrrr7124 It was never intended to be secure communication. What gave you that idea? It's the equivalent to hopping onto Discord and chatting about the workday with some colleagues. Nothing that wasn't publically known was discussed here.
The Russians very likely just staged a man in the middle attack and that was it.
@@MajinOthinus it is not sensitive information but it show the lies of nato countries when they say repeatedly they are not involved and are looking for peace . beyond that, the recently nato-propaganda says russia will attack europe in x years and it proofs how russians are villains. But they don't mention the provocations they do, and one day may requires some russian response. As usa and isra hell bomb other countries for their national security, russia could do the same in poland or baltic pinschers
Welcher Akzent ist denn "dass das viele Leute"? 🤔
Tippse
You best start believing in Tom Clancy novels son, you’re in one
Putin caught Scholz, Pistorius and Baerbock with their pants down ! Pathetic !!
Why is the German word for American not in capital letter?
Because it is used as an adjective, and in that case the lowercase is correct.
I believe this is called plausible deniability when it comes to boots on the ground. Who's boots? Who knows?
There's been boots on the ground since early supply runs began after the invasion. It keeps popping up like it's some big secret but it's been confirmed several times by the US. They've explained what they're doing there and why. Even if they're not being entirely straightforward about the full extent of involvement, which they're probably not tbh, it's still not a secret really.