Wooow this is so good! These forms were the best. Nothing beats that feeling when you first go Valor Form in KH2! It makes the player feel so powerful. Thanks for sharing!
The keyblade transformations gave us forms. When favorite deputy turns into hyper hammer, you enter strike form. When you shooting star becomes double arrow guns, you enter element form. When hero’s origin becomes that shield, you enter guardian form.
I liked the drive gauge so much more. I feel like the keyblade transformations were fine but they should have been a resource like the drive gauge. It felt more strategic
Drive forms should've been more important. Imagine choosing the forms like in 2 and each form changed the properties of the transformation. For example choosing magic form with hyper hammer increases magic or magic launcher in speed form increases the speed. In 3 drive forms were actually useless, just a cosmetic and it was disappointing
Lore wise Drive forms make sense only in KH2 actually. It was special forms Sora could use by drawing his power from his Heart. The point was that at the time he wasn't fully complete yet, and Drive forms was there to help him until he's fully complete, that is to say until Roxas returned to him completely so that he could draw the full potential of his Heart by achieving the Final form. Once he achieves that Drive forms have no more point to be in future games. It would be just a complete rehash of the gameplay mechanic, so I'm glad KH3 have the keyblade transformation mechanic, which again lore wise a natural evolution as a keyblade wielder. If Drive forms come back, it would just be plain fan service.
Forms in kh is like transformation in kakarot because you can actually see the difference in damage, speed, movement I felt it was strategic where you can tell yourself “I might have to go valor for this fight”
Sonic Frontiers music slapping so hard that people put it in Kingdom Hearts videos, Kingdom Hearts being known for its own legendary music more than it's known for combining final fantasy and Disney.
shame you didnt use magic, it was my favorite part about forms in kh2, especially master magic, cartwheeling on top of enemies while raining thunder just looks so cool.
If sora didn't have his moves reset from the beginning of each game and kept his moves from kh1 up 2, kh3, without forgetting them. He would be beyond unstoppable. Actually, unstoppable is a massive understatement. Andthe best part yet, the series isn't over, so he is going to keep getting stronger.
If you download the Ultimate keyblade movesets mod you can get every form from kh2 including anti form as well as the weapons from each org member as well as roxas axel ventus and aqua
While these look cool, I better not hear anyone spout that Nomura is a hack or Square is lazy bs just because modders did this. They didn't develop the game, they just took something that was in the game and just tweaked it. If anything, modders just made KH3 more fun.
It is not to say the nomura or square is lazy, clearly it takes a lot of work and dedication to create a video game. My main gripe is that these classic drive forms were so good that they should have been in kh3 in the first place due to their own merits. And it has very much to do with the way drives work overall. Instead of it being a more clewrly defined meter, we just get random arrows that dont consistently build at the same rate
@@insertnamehere2746 In the story, it makes sense since Sora lost his powers when Xehanort tried to take over his heart in DDD. Here in KH3, I feel like it's better since the game gives you the option to choose the form or just let it go to waste. And you basically just land combos to get the form, it's really not that deep.
You are a bit wrong. Many of these animations are from the game but others like wisdom and master form and limit form are taken directly from kh2 and ported into 3 with modifications which is really hard. And Nomura didn't make any of these. The animation team creates these forms.
@@Redxan600 you still have the option to use a form in kh2. In my opinion the best form system hey can implement if kh4 has one its a mix of 3 and 2. Have every keyblade have its form but have e meter that adds a cost to them and balances them. Choosing when to use a form is way more fun than hitting to get it because you can use them to get openings or I frame through something. Its possible In kh3 but you have like 30 seconds to usebthe form otherwise it dissappears
Oh strike raid is in the game, it's just not how you would picture it. Some of the risk dodge counters are special counters. One being a very evasive styled strike raid
the only thing i missing from the master form is the energy crackling around sora's hands and sora flipping the blades around. not to mention the running animation where 1 will spin in front of him while he holds the other.
Sonic: I AM UNDEFEATABLE I’M HAGING ONTO THE OTHER SIDE I WON’T GiVE UP TILL THE END OF ME! Sora: Hey sonic can I use it plz? Sonic: sure dude Secretly they did this between the miles electric and gummi phone
Forms added much more to the game to me. I felt like i was actually leveling up more than just sora, and i had reasons to use other combat methods with the forms. Some people may think the forms were a crutch but truly they kept me playing the game to unlock more for them. It was cool getting ur skills from the forms and using them. it added a more grindy aspect but nonetheless i enjoyed it way more than my introduction to 3. Maybe i gotta play 3 more but till then 2 is levels above it in combat, magic and fun. The bounciness of Soras moves in 3 woulda been nice in 2 but it already has good bouncy combos to begin with, forms just made it more fun to do instead of doing the same thing and seeing the same moves all the time.
I played the entire first half of 2 not knowing what to do with the drives and the penalties but when i did i felt like ive learned alot. 3 taught me how to play and use the combat unlike 2, but it truly wasnt as fun unlocking stuff compared to 2. Which i yearn for more games to do give players a reason to use the things they use. (Yeah summons but those are boring to me and only some links are really cool) nothing beats the forms tho imo. Theres something about that feeling of being on the brink of defeat and using ur cool ass moves to win ur match over. Just to see ur outfit stay in the next cutscene and even outside after u beat them. Its on sum anime shit😭
Maybe the next game will have a mix of these forms and keyblade transformation?? This would put Sora above most of the Organization 13 and would be able to do 1v1’s against them on his own now.
Why would you guys waste your life watching somebody else play video game where you can spend that same exact time and play video game yourself makes absolutely no sense
@@evolutionismrequiresfaith4974 Because some of us don’t have the access to those mods and would like to see how different the gameplay is through someone else
Daammmmiiittttt. I wish I still had my tower. The modding community is just... they bring a tear to my eye. I will admire from afar as I can only play on ps5 lol. Which I'm okay with but DAMN you beautiful people are so damn awesome.
KH2 Sora still looks weird in KH3 mainly the hair it's like they tried to make him look younger so there would be a noticeable change when he got his KH3 outfit
Looks amazing. but I personally think they should have bundled it up so we could just use any form instead of all of them replacing second form. It would also be great if they created a mod that reworked the magic system to behave like it did in KH1.
Yeah. Looking back now, I think I really liked KH1's magic system - for the most part. The only problems I have with it are that: A. Only items, Goofy's MP Gift ability and Sora's MP Rage ability, and attacking recharged your magic gauge, rather than it being refilled automatically over time. and B. When recharging your MP with ATTACKS, it didn't seem like the MP gauge filled up a lot, thus "forcing" you to use the other methods (Goofy's MP Gift, sacrifice an item, or have MP Rage equipped and get hurt). HOWEVER, I suppose they HAD to do for gameplay balancing purposes.
KH3 on launch or DLC should've included Second form with branching forms depending on they fill the meter; Purely Striking will turn into Valor, Magic spamming will turn into Wisdom form, Mixing both will pop Master form and using links while holding Oath keeper or Oblivion will turn Final. I hate the Double form looks, even looks misplaced.
HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!!!!! Im going to replay the game with all these mods! BUT all hype aside. I CANNOT DESCRIBE the emotion that I felt when I saw VALOR USING MAGIC!!!!!!!! THATS HUUUUUUUUUUUGE!!!!!! TY for the vid! Im excited af to play it again now \o/
How I wished that they just kept Drive form and improve it. Rather than keyblade formchange. Dual wield>Keyblade transformation. Formchange is not bad but man! Imagine Driveform and Formchange combined in KH4.
Do you think it would be possible to create custom boss fights for the members of Organization XIII that weren't part of the Real Organization XIII, in a comparable style to the Re:Mind data fights? edit: I know it's only been like a minute since I first posted this, but I just realized something and had to add it. If this is possible, and it comes to pass, odds are the first thing that will be recorded of it will be a fight against a reimagined Data Axel with the player controlling Roxas.
KH3 not adding Coliseum in base game is Criminal. Heck they could have surprise us that it will be a DLC. Honestly I thought it will be but no. Still a Question to me why they did not add Coliseum battles wtf.
I do wish the other drive forms have different combo structures like valor form. Like Valor has a new Omega Finale, different magic, an extra finisher and the other forms kind of lack in that potential though.
I’m sad kh3 didn’t have reflect also this shows that KH2 drive forms would’ve been fantastic in this game in fact they’d be better than what’s in the game now lol
I'm happy the forms are added but why the hell people are bagging on the form changes? I'm just there's nothing wrong with it just think about the combinations like wisdom form mixed with mirage staff imagine the illusions cast reflect on sora while he's performing a powerful knock back spell
This. This is the reason i got turned off by KH3, the thing i was most excited about, and most disappointed by. My most favorite thing in KH2, satisfying lvl up system for the forms, insane combos, dual wielding, and learning their skills without the forms. That, and the extremely floaty combat. I know most people want something new and innovative in next instalments, but imo, instead of replacing, i really wished they continued working on with the same system instead of completely reworking it. Oh, and don't get me started on Limits, i HATED limits in KH2, it was just an option before, now i feel like i am forced to use them, the entire combat feels like several cutscenes...14 years of waiting, 14 years worth of disappointment, but that's just my two cents.
Except attacks still feel weightless and almost too quick and snappy. KH1 and 2 was nice and fluid. Animations look even more canned. Where's the FF team when you need them. Master form looked so graceful in KH2 but now there is just too much tacky traction to enemies it just completely lost it's feel.
Damn we still doing clip bait in 2022? I deadass was about to reinstall Kingdom hearts 3 because I thought this was a legit thing from the developers I was wrong thanks for that 💯
Where’s the extra world packs?! I don’t care! We got DRIVE FORMS!!! I love these forms in KH2! I love them all! Final form *IS* still hard for me to get though but I love the other forms! But I didn’t like the Anti-form or the rage form either.
Intro Music is Undefeatable from Sonic Frontiers. The Intro itself is Edited by - youtube.com/@Avataryaya
To me drive forms are less free so they feel more special. Also dual wielding keyblades is cool af.
Drive forms are way cooler than keyblade forms keyblade forms should be added into the regular combos of each keyblade to make them diverse
Wooow this is so good! These forms were the best. Nothing beats that feeling when you first go Valor Form in KH2! It makes the player feel so powerful. Thanks for sharing!
Valor Form is my absolute favorite Drive Form.
Valor Form was my favorite form in terms of aesthetics & being able to hack & slash without a need for guard or magic.
I hope KH4 gives us a hybrid system of the drive forms and keyblade transformations, then we got the best of both worlds
The keyblade transformations gave us forms. When favorite deputy turns into hyper hammer, you enter strike form. When you shooting star becomes double arrow guns, you enter element form. When hero’s origin becomes that shield, you enter guardian form.
I liked the drive gauge so much more. I feel like the keyblade transformations were fine but they should have been a resource like the drive gauge. It felt more strategic
They should of just kept Forms in the game instead of making keyblades into different weapons.
Then that would've been a copy paste of kh2. I wanted KH3 to be different. And I'm glad Nomura took a chance and made something fun.
Why not both like what this mod does 😳 (Drive Forms are super sick though)
Or, have each keyblade have one transformation that it would take when you entered a form.
Drive forms should've been more important. Imagine choosing the forms like in 2 and each form changed the properties of the transformation. For example choosing magic form with hyper hammer increases magic or magic launcher in speed form increases the speed. In 3 drive forms were actually useless, just a cosmetic and it was disappointing
Lore wise Drive forms make sense only in KH2 actually. It was special forms Sora could use by drawing his power from his Heart. The point was that at the time he wasn't fully complete yet, and Drive forms was there to help him until he's fully complete, that is to say until Roxas returned to him completely so that he could draw the full potential of his Heart by achieving the Final form. Once he achieves that Drive forms have no more point to be in future games. It would be just a complete rehash of the gameplay mechanic, so I'm glad KH3 have the keyblade transformation mechanic, which again lore wise a natural evolution as a keyblade wielder.
If Drive forms come back, it would just be plain fan service.
"I almost died! ... I don't think these enemies have a chance."
-ProdigyxCD
Fair lmao
Forms in kh is like transformation in kakarot because you can actually see the difference in damage, speed, movement I felt it was strategic where you can tell yourself “I might have to go valor for this fight”
Sonic Frontiers music slapping so hard that people put it in Kingdom Hearts videos, Kingdom Hearts being known for its own legendary music more than it's known for combining final fantasy and Disney.
shame you didnt use magic, it was my favorite part about forms in kh2, especially master magic, cartwheeling on top of enemies while raining thunder just looks so cool.
If sora didn't have his moves reset from the beginning of each game and kept his moves from kh1 up 2, kh3, without forgetting them. He would be beyond unstoppable. Actually, unstoppable is a massive understatement. Andthe best part yet, the series isn't over, so he is going to keep getting stronger.
If you download the Ultimate keyblade movesets mod you can get every form from kh2 including anti form as well as the weapons from each org member as well as roxas axel ventus and aqua
While these look cool, I better not hear anyone spout that Nomura is a hack or Square is lazy bs just because modders did this.
They didn't develop the game, they just took something that was in the game and just tweaked it. If anything, modders just made KH3 more fun.
Agreed.
It is not to say the nomura or square is lazy, clearly it takes a lot of work and dedication to create a video game.
My main gripe is that these classic drive forms were so good that they should have been in kh3 in the first place due to their own merits. And it has very much to do with the way drives work overall. Instead of it being a more clewrly defined meter, we just get random arrows that dont consistently build at the same rate
@@insertnamehere2746 In the story, it makes sense since Sora lost his powers when Xehanort tried to take over his heart in DDD. Here in KH3, I feel like it's better since the game gives you the option to choose the form or just let it go to waste. And you basically just land combos to get the form, it's really not that deep.
You are a bit wrong. Many of these animations are from the game but others like wisdom and master form and limit form are taken directly from kh2 and ported into 3 with modifications which is really hard. And Nomura didn't make any of these. The animation team creates these forms.
@@Redxan600 you still have the option to use a form in kh2. In my opinion the best form system hey can implement if kh4 has one its a mix of 3 and 2. Have every keyblade have its form but have e meter that adds a cost to them and balances them. Choosing when to use a form is way more fun than hitting to get it because you can use them to get openings or I frame through something. Its possible In kh3 but you have like 30 seconds to usebthe form otherwise it dissappears
Oh strike raid is in the game, it's just not how you would picture it. Some of the risk dodge counters are special counters. One being a very evasive styled strike raid
Modders are fucking incredible.
That sonic ost intro thoooooo!!
the only thing i missing from the master form is the energy crackling around sora's hands and sora flipping the blades around. not to mention the running animation where 1 will spin in front of him while he holds the other.
Riku: "you like it!?!?"
Sora: "ummm.... no?"
Sonic: I AM UNDEFEATABLE I’M HAGING ONTO THE OTHER SIDE I WON’T GiVE UP TILL THE END OF ME!
Sora: Hey sonic can I use it plz?
Sonic: sure dude
Secretly they did this between the miles electric and gummi phone
0:40
undefeatable.... :'))))
What is the song name that starts playing
@@nadenjoin2733Sonic Frontiers OST - Undefeatable by tomoya ohtani and kellin quinn from sleeping with sirens.
Forms added much more to the game to me. I felt like i was actually leveling up more than just sora, and i had reasons to use other combat methods with the forms. Some people may think the forms were a crutch but truly they kept me playing the game to unlock more for them. It was cool getting ur skills from the forms and using them. it added a more grindy aspect but nonetheless i enjoyed it way more than my introduction to 3. Maybe i gotta play 3 more but till then 2 is levels above it in combat, magic and fun. The bounciness of Soras moves in 3 woulda been nice in 2 but it already has good bouncy combos to begin with, forms just made it more fun to do instead of doing the same thing and seeing the same moves all the time.
I played the entire first half of 2 not knowing what to do with the drives and the penalties but when i did i felt like ive learned alot. 3 taught me how to play and use the combat unlike 2, but it truly wasnt as fun unlocking stuff compared to 2. Which i yearn for more games to do give players a reason to use the things they use. (Yeah summons but those are boring to me and only some links are really cool) nothing beats the forms tho imo. Theres something about that feeling of being on the brink of defeat and using ur cool ass moves to win ur match over. Just to see ur outfit stay in the next cutscene and even outside after u beat them. Its on sum anime shit😭
I don't know how I forgot about limit form!
I already got all the others. So, now I need to download limit form to complete the set!
Thanks bro!
Perfect.❤️❤️❤️
Maybe the next game will have a mix of these forms and keyblade transformation?? This would put Sora above most of the Organization 13 and would be able to do 1v1’s against them on his own now.
Face your fears🔥
Mirage staff is already my favorite kh3 keyblade. Now its better
They = not Square Enix
I can’t get enough of the music in sonic frontiers. It’s absolutely incredible I think! One of the best games of 2022 all the way!
EASSILY
@@ProdigyxCD awesome!
I agree, the game and music is epic :D
@@JoseGuzman-lj2vg for sure!
If you don't mind you should totally do a full gameplay of this it would be awesome and stand apart from the other gameplays.
I SECOND THIS! I would love to watch a let’s play of KH3 while using Drive Forms
Why would you guys waste your life watching somebody else play video game where you can spend that same exact time and play video game yourself makes absolutely no sense
@@evolutionismrequiresfaith4974 Because some of us don’t have the access to those mods and would like to see how different the gameplay is through someone else
@@kaizoku8087 it's the exact same thing except with a different weapon that's it
@@evolutionismrequiresfaith4974 And I would STILL love to watch the KH2 drive forms being used in a KH3 storyline
Daammmmiiittttt. I wish I still had my tower. The modding community is just... they bring a tear to my eye. I will admire from afar as I can only play on ps5 lol. Which I'm okay with but DAMN you beautiful people are so damn awesome.
2 questions.
How do you get mods on a ps4 Game?
What is this Arena Mode you are playing? Another Mod?
KH2 Sora still looks weird in KH3 mainly the hair it's like they tried to make him look younger so there would be a noticeable change when he got his KH3 outfit
I cracked up at the beginning when Undefeatable started playing. I see everyone using Sonic Frontiers Boss Music for videos now, and I am here for it.
I prefer drive forms since they aren’t nearly as spammable
Same here.
Hahahaha, the clone party... omg
This should be in the game from day 1.
Exactly
Looks amazing. but I personally think they should have bundled it up so we could just use any form instead of all of them replacing second form. It would also be great if they created a mod that reworked the magic system to behave like it did in KH1.
Yeah. Looking back now, I think I really liked KH1's magic system - for the most part. The only problems I have with it are that:
A. Only items, Goofy's MP Gift ability and Sora's MP Rage ability, and attacking recharged your magic gauge, rather than it being refilled automatically over time.
and
B. When recharging your MP with ATTACKS, it didn't seem like the MP gauge filled up a lot, thus "forcing" you to use the other methods (Goofy's MP Gift, sacrifice an item, or have MP Rage equipped and get hurt).
HOWEVER, I suppose they HAD to do for gameplay balancing purposes.
If the mod dev was interested in balance, they should make wisdom dash/clone cost considerable mp
KH3 on launch or DLC should've included Second form with branching forms depending on they fill the meter; Purely Striking will turn into Valor, Magic spamming will turn into Wisdom form, Mixing both will pop Master form and using links while holding Oath keeper or Oblivion will turn Final. I hate the Double form looks, even looks misplaced.
HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!!!!! Im going to replay the game with all these mods! BUT all hype aside. I CANNOT DESCRIBE the emotion that I felt when I saw VALOR USING MAGIC!!!!!!!! THATS HUUUUUUUUUUUGE!!!!!! TY for the vid! Im excited af to play it again now \o/
Sucks that the limit form mod got hidden in nexus.
That is so cool man.
actually, there IS an anti form coming relatively soon
How I wished that they just kept Drive form and improve it. Rather than keyblade formchange. Dual wield>Keyblade transformation. Formchange is not bad but man! Imagine Driveform and Formchange combined in KH4.
Wisdom form is the best form.
Valor Form is. Fight me.
I wish this wasn't a mod and could be oficial
leave it to the fans to do what Nomuras dumb ahh couldnt do, yall are goated fr fr
Do you think it would be possible to create custom boss fights for the members of Organization XIII that weren't part of the Real Organization XIII, in a comparable style to the Re:Mind data fights?
edit: I know it's only been like a minute since I first posted this, but I just realized something and had to add it. If this is possible, and it comes to pass, odds are the first thing that will be recorded of it will be a fight against a reimagined Data Axel with the player controlling Roxas.
ccan you have them all installed at the same time or do they conflict ?
wisdom was my fav in kh2
can u equip all these mods at the same time?
Yes
ill tell you nothing beats making combat stuff for KH3 once youve figured out to make movesets and stuff. Then Kingdom Hearts Can Be Whatever We Want.
Man to think we got robbed from this amazing combat gameplay, thank god for modders, guess Ill buy a copy on PC just for the mods
When the drive forms are better than the new trash weird forms
antiform is coming so soon
I wonder when you will cover weapon mods there are some cool stuff out there
Oh to play all of kh3 as kh2 sora
Are you gonna talk about the kh2 moveset
Perhaps a livestream
You know when u mod a game and start getting so tired of it because it feels like you've done everything .. yea
Is there an alternative limit form mod?
What was the intro song though?
Man I missed the drive forms from KH2
I LOVE YOU!!
I dont remember there being a tournament in Olymp... Or a coliseum for that matter, wtf?
I thought anti-form was already in kh3. Like when you’re just about to die and get saved at the last minute.
That was Rage form. It's a more controlled verison of anti but still different.
@@stevenhiggins3055 hmm you’re right good point.
KH3 not adding Coliseum in base game is Criminal.
Heck they could have surprise us that it will be a DLC. Honestly I thought it will be but no. Still a Question to me why they did not add Coliseum battles wtf.
What's your favorite drive form
Sad we had to get mods in order to play the sequel the way we wanted to.
What's the intro Rock song?
I really wish they kept the drive forms in vanilla KH3. I felt the combat was not as fluid or satisfying as KH2s
I do wish the other drive forms have different combo structures like valor form.
Like Valor has a new Omega Finale, different magic, an extra finisher and the other forms kind of lack in that potential though.
Limits not being in kh3 was also sad
strike raid it's already in base kh3 as a risk dodge
That sonic music threw me off
I’m sad kh3 didn’t have reflect also this shows that KH2 drive forms would’ve been fantastic in this game in fact they’d be better than what’s in the game now lol
They didn't keep the forms because sora would been too op for kh3 lmbof, but yes should have kept the forms, the forms look amazing in kh3 nice work.
Sora was already too op in KH3 from the beginning.
I'm happy the forms are added but why the hell people are bagging on the form changes? I'm just there's nothing wrong with it just think about the combinations like wisdom form mixed with mirage staff imagine the illusions cast reflect on sora while he's performing a powerful knock back spell
KH2fm limit form guard > any other base guard change my mind
What is the rock song that he uses name?
cab this mod be used on ps4/5?
8:40pm
Is the tournament stuff a mod?
Yep, and its linked in the description with the others.
Can I have all forms installed at once?
This. This is the reason i got turned off by KH3, the thing i was most excited about, and most disappointed by. My most favorite thing in KH2, satisfying lvl up system for the forms, insane combos, dual wielding, and learning their skills without the forms. That, and the extremely floaty combat. I know most people want something new and innovative in next instalments, but imo, instead of replacing, i really wished they continued working on with the same system instead of completely reworking it. Oh, and don't get me started on Limits, i HATED limits in KH2, it was just an option before, now i feel like i am forced to use them, the entire combat feels like several cutscenes...14 years of waiting, 14 years worth of disappointment, but that's just my two cents.
Except attacks still feel weightless and almost too quick and snappy. KH1 and 2 was nice and fluid. Animations look even more canned. Where's the FF team when you need them. Master form looked so graceful in KH2 but now there is just too much tacky traction to enemies it just completely lost it's feel.
Can I use mod on Ps4 jailbreak?
Damn we still doing clip bait in 2022? I deadass was about to reinstall Kingdom hearts 3 because I thought this was a legit thing from the developers I was wrong thanks for that 💯
Where’s the extra world packs?!
I don’t care! We got DRIVE FORMS!!! I love these forms in KH2! I love them all! Final form *IS* still hard for me to get though but I love the other forms! But I didn’t like the Anti-form or the rage form either.
👍
What song is this bro?
Undefeatable from Sonic Frontiers
So this is a mod?
Final forms isn't in kh3... Final fantasy removed their parts of the kingdom hearts journey...m like you said MODS
KH3 has the WORST most HIDEOUS keyblades in the entire series, if there's a mod that redesigns or completely removes them lmk
TronsAHeroXYZ
I'm the 1000th like
Roxas is still the superior Sora.
final form is almost like ui goku
Oh these are mods... Sad
I just want reflega back…
What about Graviga?
@@jordanholloman5907 i don’t care about gravity, My favorite magic is reflect and I miss it. It’s the only thing That makes me wish I could mod.
Actually they really didn't these kh3 forms ARE WEAKER