Judo in HEMA: Compilation of Takedowns in Longsword
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2021
- Compilation of some takedowns in longsword that I was holding on to or knew of from RUclips. A bunch of them are me because I know how to find mine.
If you know of any others, let me know and I'll make a part 2 if I can find enough to warrant it.
Also please argue about what the judo names of the throws are.
Thanks!
Love it! I'm a huge advocate of throws and takedowns in HEMA. I'm sad to see that most of these exchanges end, however, once the action gets to the floor. Personally, I think longsword fencers ought to all acquire a cheap Cold Steel rubber rondel dagger trainer (they're like 7 US dollars or something) and keep them on hand during fencing bouts. Then, when takedowns happen, having access to a secondary/finishing weapon can allow both fighters to practice and implement techniques for finishing downed opponents. Probably won't catch on for tournaments, but it's super fun in casual sparring to integrate takedowns and dagger play.
If you implement the dagger I've found that once you see your opponent rush in you pull the dagger to actually avoid the grapple making wrestling kind of useless it kind of devolves from a duel to a knife fight
@@Gamingproish As it should be.
@@Gamingproish I see zero problem with this, wrestling should be used sparingly
Yes, it was common for people to carry daggers at the time of longsword treatises, some include defences against dagger, so including daggers would make it more historical.
Tournaments don't do it for safety reason. Try landing on your dagger with full force, I dare you.
Nice stuff but as a former wrestler and judoka turned longsword fencer all those takedowns on wooden floors is asking for injury
Agreed fully
Lol learn ukemi. All the padding you need should already be on you, and you should know how to take a fall.
I mean it's not like they're throwing uchi-mata it's just simple, safer techniques...
Except for that one guy that did sode
@@SeanWinters I know Ukemi very well
If u can’t see how certain falls would be dangerous on wood then cool but I can and have fallen out of throws from world class judoka
It’s not the end of the world but there is a risk there especially for broken collar bones
As a former wrestler with experience in Greco Roman as well as freestyle wrestling this just makes me even more eager to get into longsword fighting
Edit: get some fucking mats tho, I know the gear offers impact protection to some degree but if you're gonna incorporate wrestling you need to make sure the precautions are taken
I clicked on this thinking it would be a cool video to watch but instead it made me angry. So many of these were very unsafe. I'm all for throws and grappling in hema, I believe their inclusion should become the absolutely universal standard. But they need to be done on proper mats (ones that meet wrestling/judo standards not just thin puzzle mats!) and break falls need to be trained with the same regularity and dedication as in judo (and likely trained both normally and while wearing equipment and holding swords to make sure people are used to falling such they won't land on the sword). No club or tournament without proper mats should ever allow throws (the rules that allow you to start but not complete the throw and just awards the point as soon as you get the lift are okay, but I'm not sure they'd work as well on other kinds of takedowns like trips), and people from clubs that don't practice break falls should not be allowed to compete in tournaments that allow throws.
Good to see such reciprocating sportsmanship
that double leg was straight villainous
Nice compilation, I am all for boosting throws in HEMA. Of course, there are some things that would have to change for that to be possible safely - most injuries I have seen in tournaments come from wrestling attempts -, such as competing on mats, and make falling skills a prerequisite for competing. What I would also encourage would be to use Ringen terminology as much as possible - not necessarily exclusively, but in conjunction with modern terminology whenever possible (e.g. Schrenken for ko soto gari, Gabel for uchimata, Einbrechen for double leg/morote gari etc.). In some cases, the terminology from modern wrestling might also be closer to what we're seeing compared to Judo based on the grips used. In general, there are very few throws in Judo that aren't part of the wrestling curriculum, although I am admit that some (such as sode tsuri komi goshi / hip throw with double wrist or upper arm grip or simply osoto gari / outside trip) are extremely rarely seen, and the terminology unfortunately is not exactly uniform across the board.
This was aimed at the Judo community hence the usage of Judo terms
Gotta love those outside trips man
Thanks! I understand why a lot of tournaments don't allow it but I would love to see some more that do.
The protective gear would have to improve first.
@@day7141 I disagree. It's mostly about knowing how to throw people safely and knowing how to fall safely. Elbows and knees are already protected, the most likely thing to get hurt on the floor. Ive been thrown on grass, hardwood, blacktop, uneven cobblestone and been 100% fine. A shot to the wrist while I was wearing SPES heavies is my most significant injury thus far.
@@corrugatedcavalier5266 Anecdotal evidence is.
I wouldn’t let my children learn from someone not using proper mats. I don’t care who you think you are. I have been this stuff for decades.
@@day7141 Yep, when you're learning you should definitely use mats. Of course there's an element of risk involved still, but there is plenty of risk with proper equipment as well. Whenever I talk to HEMA people the amount of injuries caused by feders even with good gear on far outweighs anything else. Whether at the sword or in the grapple, protective gear is only part of the equation.
@@corrugatedcavalier5266 Kids mate. If you want the sport to grow, as the rest of us that have been involved with it over the years, you need kids. As in you need to formulate a structured training program that is safe for children.
Starting with break falls and growing from there. Just like the Japanese did when they rebuilt their Martial Arts.
It would be cool to see a fuller-contact format with wrestling and groundfighting perhaps with a foam knife on the hip, considering how important it was historically. Sportwise it would be like turning kickboxing into MMA, though I suppose the person in bottom position would go for either person's knife instead of submissions. Obviously the setting and training has to adjust for safety. The guy in the first clip was really nice about taking his opponent to the ground, but the ground shouldn't be a basketball court.
Are takedowns and safe falling practice incorporated into much HEMA? It seems pretty risky to allow throws in matches when participants may not know how to fall safely and are not provided mats to spar on. The Sukui Nage around 2 minutes has the receiver try to post their arm out to stop the throw, and it looks like a recipe for injury. Quite a few surprised gasps at being thrown too, like in the last one on the grass. Just rubs me the wrong way, even if it's cool to see the techniques applied in longsword.
The ??? throw at 2:50 looks like a soto makikomi btw.
It is highly club dependent, I have my doubts that most do as a core part of training
@@thomastucker7317 We train it almost every class at The Forge. 👍
Really depends on club to club. Alot of clubs are so casual that people come in and just ignored all the grappling because all they want is to hit other people, and then complained when people take them down or disarmed them.
@2:01 Tori performs Morote Gari (Two hand reaping), not Sukui Nage which is a very different throw.
Hi, thanks for the comment. The reason I went for sukui nage instead of morote gari is because there is a lift and drop instead of just a reaping of the legs. The difference is explained in this video: ruclips.net/video/_sFwPvRExtY/видео.html
@@buckshistoricallongsword9412 As a judo shodan (black belt) I can tell you with great certainty that the lift won't change the classification. Sukui Nage has very different throwing mechanics. It enters with tori and uke facing the same direction. Typically tori will adopt a perpendicular stance and then slide in behind uke's front leg. ruclips.net/video/vU6aJ2kFxoI/видео.html
@@FairfaxJJ Morote Gari is a type of double leg, not all double legs are morote gari's. To my mind no reaping action, no Gari.
First one is on Talhoffer, and he just calls it a a leg throw. All of these can be found in Western treatises.
What are some of the names of the throws found in those treatises?
@@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699
They don't really give them names. It's more like "Here's a leg throw." when he's throwing someone over his leg, and "Here's another leg throw." To differentiate you'd have to make up your own names.
@@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699 A lot of the time they are just
throw 1
Throw 1 counter
By the historical masters and since many masters wrote about the same throws, throw one in a manuscript by one master will be different to throw one by a different master
@@haidner how convenient then that the Japanese have names (and standard translations!) that we can use without having to make up our own ones
@@holyknightthatpwns
It wouldn't be a surprise if there were names within the different schools. A big part of the reason the European treatises were written was marketing, so the writers wanted to keep a lot back, thus encouraging people to hire them.
Very Nice, swordfighting and wrestling was a Very common practice. When two armored oponents fight, the best wrestler always win
the unnamed throw at about 2.58 is known in freestyle wrestling as a sag headlock.
Now add daggers into the equation, and it gets even more interesting.
Great video.
Awesome video, please allow to partake in esoteric throw definition arguments, ahem. I think youll find on closer examination that the throw at 2:40 is a Maki Komi.
The throw at 2:55 is called a "juji nage" in aikido.
Great compilation but why the emphasis on Judo terminology when these are all techniques found in HEMA treatises?
for fun
Very true. Bodymechanics are universal and wrestling is present in all cultures. These are described in the historical manuscripts of European fightmasters.
2:55 is soto makkikomi. Think almost a runners stretch throw (tai otoshi) but you hold on and land on them.
Thanks, I was thinking that's what it was, but couldn't remember the name... basically a sacrifice throw where you wrap up the arm and then spin and fall on it... (oversimplified of course)
@@robschneider6560 i might be wrong it might be soto makkikomi, not osoto. Still same idea.
A big part of the throw is the leg stopping your opponent from stepping around
I think the ??? forward throw was what you'd call a head and arm throw in wrestling. Harai goshi in judo I believe, but without the reap.
It looked to me like a maki komi
The one with question marks is a makikomi, I think. I do not know what kind of makikomi.
In wrestling, you'd call it a sagging headlock throw. It does not really correspond to any makikomi that I am familiar with, in Judo it might be classified as a low/kneeling koshi guruma.
@@johnflais3776 With the koshi guruma he would be grabbing the opponent around the neck. I can not really see it because it is black on black. If he throws him by only the arm, I think it is a Soto-makikomi. I can not really see.
@@bossfights-extra Sorry, my mistake, I thought he had the head in, but he basically grabs both arms from underneath. That's one of the problems in HEMA - it's almost always black on black :D Anyway, I know only of a few wrestling manuals that show throws like that, one is Shozo Sasahara's "Fundamentals of Scientific wrestling" (Fila 1978), pg. 111. He calls it "both arm hold waist throwing", but then again, with all the respect I have for him as a coach, he tends to deviate from the common English terminology quite a bit (besides drawing inspiration from Judo and Sumo in his technique variations). Most people in wrestling would probably call it a double underhook hip throw or double underhook sagging throw, depending on the execution.
@ 2:56 is a kubi nage, or neck throw
2:06 double leg takedown is morote gari, not sukui nage
The double leg takedown is called Morote Gari. 1:55
2:23 it was another morote gari attemped, but then the opponent tried to counter with o-goshi
2:35 was Ippon Seoi Nage. (Watch it in slow mo)
2:52 looks like a variant of Sode tsurikomi goshi
Who ever edited this video definitely messed up on the labeling of the throws, but then again they probably dont do judo so i understand 😅
Not all double leg takedowns are morote gari. Morote gari is a reaping of both legs, in the clips above the legs are not reaped, the uke is lifted and dropped. Therefore they are sukui nage, not morote gari.
"forward thrown". Was a armbar, a waki gatame. From Judo also.
It is not "... from judo". The rest of the world also knows armbars and throws. Body mechanics are universal
they say grappling is king of martial arts for a reason
Every HEMA school should have a comprehensive grappling/ submission wrestling curriculum. Mandatorily. The difference between an experienced grappler competing in historical fencing and a fencer with no close quarters skill is like an adult fighting a child. Of course the general public wants an easy, flashy, fast transition from starting HEMA to actually fence, but they have no idea that weapons fighting is only the tip of the iceberg. The foundation must be much deeper than just the weapons training. Compilations like this illustrate this point perfectly.
I tried instituting instruction in ringen with my group but most of the guys who cycled thru weren't interested and a number quit outright rather than do it. Sadly.
like an adult fighting a child... until they draw a dagger (which was common to carry along with your sword, and knives are still common to carry today) and stab/cut the crap out of you. Grappling with weapons (especially knives and pistols) is borderline suicide (for the person trying to grapple) when you don't have a compliant partner.
Understanding grappling is an important aspect of any true MARTIAL system, because sometimes things go to complete crap... but we haven't bare-knuckle-boxed our way through a war in over 10,000 years, no reason to start now.
Next up: why BJJ is an excellent base for a non-firearm fighting system in a modern army, which uses body armor and all sorts of pouches and bags attached to the soldier that makes it hard to roll/move around...
Making a lot of generalizations here. Grappling is not "borderline suicide". It's very effective, regardless of a compliant partner or not.@@wildrangeringreen
Like the takedowns, however, since it is swordfighting, there should be some finishing move with the sword in order to get points. Just taking the opponent down does not mesn anything, especially when the one executing the throw falls down too. The final positioning can give advantage to eighter of the two. Without finish, this should be a double.
or at the very least, follow the rules of Glima (Icelandic wrestling) and whoever can get up without the opponent having a hold of them without their back to the enemy first "wins". The implication in a MARTIAL situation is that at point, you could grab a weapon to finish it, or your buddy could run up and stab the guy on the ground.
In most rule sets know (the Netherlands), you need to get in a dominant position. So it can be a short wrestle.
But... depends on the rule set
Que Viva!
foreword throw i think is soto makikomi
That first throw was O guruma not O soto.
jesus christ throws are absolutely brutal lmao i love it
2:37 - aaaand there is Poland :)
Throws and takedowns are part of the martial art. Otherwise it is incomplete.
Well, HEMA prides itself on basing its technique in actual historical sources and those manuscripts are full of grappling moves. I'm pretty sure for every judo throw there should be a european medieval counterpart
Kinda, but not exactly. Matt Easton did a video on how historical European masters responded to Japanese martial arts (kendo and judo/Jiu jitsu.) The European masters apparently didn’t care too much for kendo, as it was similar enough to their own fighting they didn’t learn new concepts from it. However, when they saw judo, they were vastly interested. I would highly recommend the video, Matt makes some good stuff. I think the thing that really needs to be remembered when comparing HEMA and Japanese martial arts is that European cultures had lots of resources and exposure to other cultures, so they developed weapons and armor that were way superior to that of a Japanese army. On the other end of the spectrum, Japan lacked resources and exposure, as such they developed not so much their arms and armor (not as much as Europe at least) but rather focused on grappling like judo and then either a knife or submission to finish a grounded enemy. I’m sure HEMA had plenty of throws, but from what I can tell, judo had a fair number more, and their practitioners were more ready to deploy them.
@@jonahwashburn1163 A lot of the things you talking sound weird if not wrong. Judo isn't that old, and I doubt there is much as far as throws goes that would impress western wrestles. Maybe the ground work, but then again it depends on the Judoka's line, Kodokan or Butoku Kai / Kosen. Gracies' teacher Maeda, who contrary to what some say was from kodokan and not Kosen, says in a letter to a friend in Japan that his ground wrestling improved after he learned Catch wrestling. Two other Gracies teachers, Yano (Kosen judo) and Tatu (Luta Livre Brasileira / Catch Wrestling) faced each other three times, with Tatu winning the two without the Gi (Kimono / Pajama) and losing the one with the Gi due to fatigue from grip fighting. But this is a totally different rabbit hole. And the samurai armour, mostly lamellar and weapons were just ok afaik. And the japanese had contact with their neighbors for most of their history.
I always feel weird about seeing judo in HEMA, I've seen guys dropped HARD. Granted, due to their own force coming in but had no idea what was coming. I get that grappling is a part of HEMA - but in no way is a Japanese martial art relative to European martial arts. People say it's the same thing as what's found in HEMA literature, I'm not convinced.
I do love Judo tho it's sick af
Its called wrestling and is part of Hema
It doesn't belong in HEMA imo. But still fun to watch.
Finally, getting ready for WW4
Hard to appreciate. I’ve come for a sword fight. Not a wrestling match.
why not just use the takedowns already in the manuals? lmao
they are universal, the ones in the manuals are also some of the ones in Judo. The human body only works in so many ways. Its like how some Katana stances are the same as Longsword, both are used typically 2 handed so ofc they are gonna be similar.
If you see HEMA as a sport then it's a matter of agreed rules. If you see it as martial first then there are no rules except victory without major injury and takedowns are just a normal part of the techniques catalog. Personnaly, I'm definitely going for the martial side as it's what makes HEMA interesting over olympic fencing, including other things such as fighting with different weapons and multiple opponents in uneven areas...
judo or just wrestling throughs?
Judo is wrestling. Not a big fan of japanese words when english do the work, but there is no reason to treat it as a attack as some people are doing in the comments section ...
if you want to learn one. Judo. Yeah people say its less effective without a Gi but its because thats what they watch in the UFC. You can grab the pants or shorts irl, no rules is no rules. You will rarely fight a naked opponent & besides Judo still teaches grips that work with no Gi if you ask the teacher for them. Palm to palm or palm to wrist grips.
At 2:55 that’s a Makikomi, or arm-wrapping throw, executed well too!
As an MMA fighter, I think it being disallowed is dishonest in the spirit of HEMA which is "How do you fight in a real sword fight?" If the system can't handle being thrown in a sword bind which is common, What are you actually practicing?
Sword fencing
I like hema for the swordplay. it might be allowed in the rules but using blunt swords makes moves like these very low risk, which in my opinion, not really in the spirit of swordplay. it might be possible to pull this off with sharps but the risk is much greater and i think it would be much less likely to be used.
Wrestling is all through the treatises. With swords. It is well documented that grappling was done with sharps. Your belief is completely wrong.
Pls be careful about slamming opponents on hard floor. Just Sayin.
Wouldn't need Judo if they learned how to fence instead of crashing into each other.
A complete fighter knows all ranges
Close with and destroy the enemy
The 2 throws before uchimata were both soto makikomi. Interesting, though unsurprising, that the French HEMA guys have the best judo.
Buhurt is like a big brother to this sport lol
Orgs of those competitions are irresponsible. There should be special floor.
검을 잃거나 검을 못 쓰는 상황에서 레슬링이지 검을 던져버리고 레슬링이라니... 미친거 아니냐? 폼멜이나 크로스가드로 찍힌다고.
I don't know shit about judo I don't know shit about HEMA but this is kinda cool
most instigating the take downs are just out classed and it is a move of desperation
Alot of these throws would likely be found in ringen. It is probably more appropriate to refer to ringen in a hema context. So re-title, hema in hema
This was aimed at the Judo community hence the usage of Judo terms
On a hard surface the action should stop when the other fencer's balance is broken. Also there's no martial reason to follow someone to the ground and really no reason to fall on top of them. Just my opinion. That said the throws seen here on mats or other suitable surfaces are very cool and everyone has great control.
I mean, if you're going for a non lethal approach if possible it makes sense to follow your opponent to the ground in order to restrain them, but at that point you're really doing ground work wrestling not fencing.
Also some grappling throws cant really be done without following your opponent to the ground, at least not safely whether that's in regards to making sure your opponent doesnt land on their head or just making sure your own legs dont get crushed the wrong way as they come down
There's a lot of good reasons to fall on top of someone. It adds to the impact, does more damage (in many forward throws you end up slamming your hip on their soft belly), potentially stops them from fighting back effectively due to the shock and puts you straight into a hold where you can restrain and control them. Also, sometimes to make it work you have to commit so much that you're gonna loose your balance anyway, so its better to land in an advantageous position
Look up jui jitsu and ground and pound dude
There is martial reason to follow someone to the ground... When you are on top you are in a good position to finish the fight, either by ground and pound, chokes, joint locks, or in a medieval context by using your dagger. If you had to defeat someone in plate armour, taking them down so you have better control while stabbing through gaps could be a good idea
I am not for wrestling or throws or takedowns in longsword fencing. Don’t get me wrong they work in the octagon and in a real fist fight, but to me it is the mark of a bad fencer.
Just like kicking or punching someone in fencing, is the mark of a bad fencer. Or throwing your sword in the opponents face, is the mark of a bad fencer.
you want to throw me around? Ok, let´s do judo.
you want to strangle me? Ok, let´s do jujutsu.
you want to kick me? Ok, let´s do taekwondo.
You want to hit me with a sword? Lets do longsword
Do you feel the same way about pommel striking?
@@henryc7548 Short answer: No I don’t feel the same way with pommel striking.
Long answer: Pommel striking, striking with the cross guard, trapping the hands or opponents sword with the grip of your sword. Are all techniques where the sword is used. Therefore in my mind, it is the mark of a good fencer to use them.
As soon as we abandon/let go of the sword on purpose, it´s not really fencing any more. don’t get me wrong, people did tackle and wrestle each other historically. And it works, if you want to win a real fight. But you have chosen to fight me with a sword, so why not use it?
Its is not a mark of a bad fencer, its is a mark of effective fencer, throwing techniques are important part of many hema manuals, George Silver even believes that the one fencer that knows grappling always wins. Samurai and possibly Chinese and others also incorporated grappling into swordfighting. That's basically what Japanese jiujitsu is
@@pavolverescak1712 I don’t understand your reasoning. Grappling and throws might be mentioned in the historical sources, but so are kicks to the knees, joint locks, daggers hidden in boots and guns hidden in coats. Japanese sources describe samurai throwing sand, coins or clothing in the opponents face to distract them. But I don’t see your point. Should we include this in longsword? Should we allow punches and kicks in longsword? Do you want to include punches or knifes in jujutsu as well?
@@rasmusskaarup8945 Your point is valid but I go to HEMA clubs to simulate how I would kill another human given we have weapons from medieval times. OFc it's better to do max damage with weapon but sometimes you do what you can. If I could cut with a sword I would but in this moment I see only option to punch to get initiative for example. Or elbow, kick, punch him if we are about to meet in kron. Obviously only poking with longsword with one hand just to try your luck or constantly throwing it will only annoy clubmates and impede your progression as a fighter. Every sport has boundaries - otherwise one can start argue that he will poison his opponent instead of fencing with him. I'm for - "Take your weapon(s) go kill him now without leaving the area" part of this continuum - how organize this without traumatism and is it a HEMA is a different question tho.
when you check armored fight you quickly realize most fights would end up with blunt damage or in a hand to hand combat with a dagger finding its way into the armor crack