Scott, I have 6 of the 120 volt CyboInverters that I have had for a few of years, I have two of the standalone 4 panel units and four of the two ganged 8 panel units. (I can't keep up with their nomenclature as they have changed and are adding new ones all the time). The issue that I have with them is, if the level of sunlight to run them is insufficient they will try to start and then shut down then try and start again and then shut down, they will continue to do this until there is if there is a sufficient level sunlight to run them or until there is not enough light for them to start at all. This is most common in the mornings and later in the day and all day on overcast days depending on the load. I don’t know but I would not think that this repetitive starting and stopping would be good for them. On a good solar day “What I call A Severe Clear Day With No Clouds” I have run a Ryobi table top band saw and a Ryobi table top drill press and a Stanley 6 peak HP shop vacuum along with a 100 watt incandescent lamp all at the same time using two ganged units with 8, 250 watt panels. As I stated it was on a very good solar day and it was near solar noon. The CyboInverters have to have a minimum load to get them to start producing AC voltage. If memory serves me correctly I believe that I have gotten them to start producing AC voltage on as little as a 25 watt load using a 25 watt incandescent lamp. I have found that the best way to get them run a tool is to start them on a low level load such as the 25 watt lamp then add in a 100 to 200 watt lamp then start the tool and then turn off the 100 to 200 watt lamp leaving the 25 watt lamp on. I have found that they will not start tools that have motors with a high end rush currents even on good solar days. I do use them to power a 1350 watt space heater in my workshop in the winter time I can run it from around 10:00 am to about 1:00 pm on a good solar day. In the event they should shut down do to clouds or at the point where there is insufficient sunlight to run them and to prevent them from starting and stopping have built a manually articulated holding relay that I use to start the heater. Once the heater is running I use the 120 volts from the CyboInverters to keep the relay energized, should the light level drop below the minimum required to produce the current and voltage required to run the heater then the CyboInverters shuts down de-energizing the relay and automatically removing the heater from the CyboInverters. I have look at the wave form on my oscilloscope and it is not very pretty, it's somewhat nasty looking, but to be fair about it I was only running a 100 watt load at the time the wave form may improve with a heaver load making the CyboInverters work a little harder, perhaps someday I will test it. I wanted to use them to run my Mini Split air conditioner but the voltage and current fluctuated so much while running the Mini Split I have decided against it. I do have to say that the level of support that I have received from George and Manuel at Cyboenergy the manufacture of the CyboInverters is outstanding.
I filled all backsides of my PVs with water pipe so the heat comes directly from the sun an cooles the PV to make it more efficient and parts of the power just drives the waterpump. No need for extra equipment, efficient usage of solar and cooling of the PVs .... all in one system.
Dude you are the man. You keep up with current products and know your shit. Very impressive and amazing what you do. Keep up the Great work knowledge and doing what you do.
Idk how long I've been subbed to this channel but he's definetly one of my first 10. This whole time I had no idea his name was Scott 😂😂😭 I feel bad now 😂😭😭
great inverter. Now persons here can convert there electric water water to this system. Didn't know such inverters existed. The part about the water staying hot during the 12 hours in the night just sold me the idea. Will search your videos for more on this topic.
Looks like a very promising replacement if my current PV direct controller goes south for the winter. The only problem is that I built it around three 96 cell Sunpower modules that I have hanging around in my garage that was collecting dust. Having a nominal 65 volts open circuit won't play nicely with it unless they have a unit that is compatible with 96 cells. For being second hand modules, they still produce on the upper end of 5 kWh per day giving me plenty of hot water throughout the year.
Great video but with battery back up and inverters, having a dedicated array system tied to just the hot water seem inefficient to me, as soon as the tank gets hot your no longer heating water and the panels are switched off but with basic immersion control you can draw heat from the whole array and when the tank gets hot and the thermostat kicks out, the whole array is helping to charge the batteries, that's how my offgrid hot water system works and when solar is low I can make a choice between heating water or running other loads depending on my needs. Great channel, brilliant off grid instructions.
Would love to see what water heaters can work with the dump load on the Sol-Ark. I’d prefer a natural gas water heater that has an electric element in it for the dump load.
Is that option reasonably priced? What's an example of a water heater that is electric/gas? I like the idea of heating an indirect tank with an 80%+ combi boiler OR electric/dump load. Gas heaters are not nearly as well insulated as any off-the-shelf electric water heater. Most gas water heaters I have looked at do not see very efficent opitions so operating cost may not be much less than an electric model.
Quick question, if I remember correctly you installed sol arc at this property which has the function to heat hot water when batteries are full. Any reason you chose the cyboinverter instead of going through sol arc?
I get nervous when I see "get a quote", "call for price" for products. That usually means its very expensive. I have a parts washer that uses a single 120v 1000 watt element that isn't used much so this would be great to keep the water hot.
@@ryanroberts1104 I don't know if he paid for promoting products. But it begs the question, Why isn't everyone heating their hot water with just 4 panels. .. The market is worth billions...
@@questioneverything4601 Didn't sound like a paid promotion. If anybody pays that much for that they are a moron, there are so many, many other ways to heat water without an overpriced inverter. Inverting power for a heating element is ridiculous! I have a propane tank that only powers the tankless water heater - a 100 gallon tank ($300) lasts 4-5 years for all the water heating in my home. If you really want solar hot water they make direct heating panels, which are cheaper, and do not require an inverter of any sort. PV panels really should just be pooled and power any random load in the house, whether hot water or otherwise, and then switch over to hot water only if there is excess power production.
How does the price of a PV dedicated direct system like this compare to a traditional active solar hot water system? What are the major advantages / disadvantages of each? Great video. Thanks.
Grid goes down and he looses the ability to heat water but this is a micro inverter for 4 panels. It is for a grid tie system and the price is outlandish. $2515 bucks says the web site.
I agree! It was informative to point out what is available for doing this, but there was to step-by-step on how to connect the cables or if he used the existing #10 ga. cable back to the home.
I just don't really understand this tbh. Like why would you put up panels that are only for hot water? Wouldn't just added thos panels to your set-up be better overall? Just the fact that you will have times tho's panels aren't needed to heat the water so your wasting the energy they can produce? Can't you get the same or better outcome with the water tank on a timer?
@@dizzlethe7346 Not necessarily. As he mentioned, a tank of water is technically a (thermal) battery. It IS an energy storage device. Feeding the power into a chemical battery bank, then taking power from the bank to dump it into a thermal battery requires higher capacity components and involves more energy loss because it has to travel through more wires and circuits which = more resistance eating up power. A 5% or more loss is inevitable taking that route. THAT is a waste of power. The panels in a properly sized off grid system won't be charging a battery of any kind all day - the bank should be charged long before the day ends on a good, sunny day. That doesn't mean wasted power, it means surplus power. That's a good thing. It means you've done something right vs getting nervous at the end of the day because you didn't size your pv array big enough to fully charge the battery before the sun goes down. The latter is not a good scenario - that's wasted time and effort. Not to mention, having solar direct to the hot water instead of having everything connected to one main system adds redundancy, which is extremely important for off grid systems like this. They can't rely on the main for back up like a grid tied owner can. If the main system goes down here for whatever reason, then at least they'll still have hot water without having to run a petrol generator. Multiple redundancies should be built into every off grid system the same way the corporate utility builds them into their infrastructures, otherwise you're going to be up sh_t creek without a paddle if/when there's an outage. This is off grid living done right.
@@JamesBiggar I mean he is sending it to an inverter tho DC to AC right? An I did miss speak in a way I suppose, When I mean timer Is a connection going off of the DC pulled from the panel as it is getting feed into your sol-ark or w.e from the strings. Only turning on when overriding it or the Battery pack itself is full. This way you your have less surplus/WASTED energy and money... If it was about having back-ups you would section out everything wouldn't you? As far as sizing a system. That is basically what I am talking about. Y would you not size the WHOLE system to the worst day/month like 775 has said b4. An use the KNOWN surplus made to supply the thermal batteries after the solid ones are done?. Buying a second 40g or just an 80g heat pump model would mean LESS money overall, Less power draw, Larger heat storage but most of all less overall wasted energy also. You could end up with 3/4 preheaters with the amount you pay for the other set-up. CIM-1200A/H is $1200 with 4/5% loss, running an extra conduit with wire the post another 1000-1500 or well more when you add the extra labor costs of connections also. Ya you can get another 5kw battery 12-1500, extra heat pump 80g 500w DC heat pump 5-800 then keep a few bucks in the pocket to buy back-up parts/boards that will go bad on the Sol-arks Growatts or outbacks so you have multiple redundancies of whole home power loss rather then just hot water.... I keep talking about sol-ark BC he says that is the system in place an bc they are SET-UP to be able to have hot an cold water battery banks hooked to the AUX an use what is normally wasted surplus power, So I was just wondering y not go that route (yes it is 3% more "loss" but it is surplus...) use the sol-ark as intended, At the same time saving 3k (LOW end) for the customer. But at the same time also giving the customer the option of heating hot water when you have no sun too... He has MANY other videos he has done it the way I am talking about off the AUX of the Sol-ark even a few off combiners (early videos) on a timer that pulled off the feed of invertor. So I guess in a way I was more asking if 775 if it was a customer like you that wanted it this way or if it was a special reason he wanted it this way.... I just don't understand not either upgrading other aspects of the main build first to get higher yields more storage an or spare parts over hot water you can make EZ with thne back-ups of main power.
@@JamesBiggar Do not get me wrong tho... You have apps that work with this. Like cabins in the wood that hauling batteries too is not a thing. So direct connection is the only way for things like just plain water much less hot water along with a fridge/crap freezers sure. But IMO it is INSANE to do that to this set-up. Like he has a $2200 water heater tank on top of it all we are talking a near 6K more, To put into the main system. I.E PV tech it's self to get higher watts per foot an or From a "5" to 6.8 closer to 7 then his 5 lol (375watt panels not the 265s) the panels options at the time, Or panel array set-up go from the 18 to the 24 same 3 post set-up , Larger battery storage, More PV and most of all bigger and or staged hot water tanks with way WAY higher efficiency ratings then the 1=1 they have now... ROFL. IDGAF if going into a sol-ark has a 93% rating an the CyboInverter 1200 has a 95/96% when you can get a 30+seer rated 80g heat-pump water heater that has a 1=3-4.3 (depending on temps) that kind of blows it all away. Like 2/3% top end over a return of 300%hmm. The only extra cost of doing it RIGHT! Is if you have extra crap days/want the back-up of the gen on the AUX of sol-ark. Then you have to add a 30amp sub panel that the water heaters/sub-load an gen connect to off of the sol-ark adding timers to the "surplus" load to only turn on at certain times so when the gen comes on (late night/morning) it's not feeding the loads but the batteries. On the same note (this build) having the extra 6k will go a massive way into not needing the stand-by gen, Plus you can always run a cord or two to the main loads (well pump, fridge) to run on the gen till the batteries top out again, In turn not needing the the small sub-box an it's cost's.
@@JamesBiggar At the end of the day. This to me is a teaching lesson on doing it right the first time, Do your homework and save tons of $$$. For real tho On some napkin math. adding $40x18=720 for panel upgrades along with the extra $280 for the other 6x280=1680 you get $2400 extra in panels with an output of 9k right off the rip not the 4.8k array now. will say $2500 total for the extra labor of... Not cutting the I-beams shorter tho? To fit the 18 an not the 24 panels it was made for? I guess lol. Naw For extra wiring to the combiner tho ha. $1500 another 5kw battery. $800 tops for a WAY better bigger hot water tank. With $1200ish left over for either boards fuses and "light" inverters incase yours turds out. Or the best route take that $1200 and upgrade from the 24 with 2 rows to the 32 with 3 rows array. An get this! Save the money later from the heavy equipment cost's an everything that comes with a second array, At the same time being able to get 12kws not 9.6k in less space as they "upgraded" to here XD. All with lower HELLA lower "upgrade" cost's.. BC be serious here if they had the 9K array with a larger battery would they need to "upgrade" to a double 4.8=9.6k array. This all could have been put on one slightly larger array with better PV panels, Pocketing the $1200 and the second set cost's as a whole! Saving you a GOOD 8-$12,000 I am sure also enough for another back-up system when you take it in. DAMN. Enough for a GoalZero or dual 4kw Yetti emergency systems with it's own 2kw solar, transfer/pairing box for 50amp connections with 2-4k to spare for spare parts even, By the end of this video for sure lol. Extra; With the low draw hot water tank wouldn't be hard to have it run off the same gen (even back-up system) your running the house off if something goes sideways with the main system also to top it off. This leads me back around y hook it up like this to this? BC doing it the bigger right way or at least them pushing customers to that will ehlp them too in the long run, It would me less ppl on call backs like this leading to more ppl being covered an more money for them in the grand scheme of things. Don't get me wrong I see the SAME shet at every place I get contracted to set post's at off-grid apps that's how I get thos jobs tho they spread thin lol. "Will make all this stuff run on DC off a bunch of small set-ups" So they don't get sticker shock off one thing alone most of all the battery storage/inverter cost's. Still paying a shit ton of money for the special DC crap even more then if they did it right the first time. Plus they get you good like this video when something shet's out in the heater and you have to make it go AC anyway, With an extra $1200 inverter and a new board bc they don't make DC replacements LOL. MAKING IT so if the hotwater goes out you need your solar guy to fix it, Fking priceless! XD
Do you install the Outback Flexmax MPPT solar charge controllers at all? It appears from the manual that it can be set up with a PWM relay output for a diversion load controller. Just add a solid state relay and a DC water heating element. Then any time the voltage hits the absorb or float voltages, it will heat your water. Thoughts?
That is what I am doing , when the flexmax goes to float it will send signal to a 12 volt temperature controller and if there is a call for it then it will send signal to a DC to DC SS relay and turn on the Dc element in the water tank.
The art of making hot water is to do it in stages. At the lower end of an insulated storage tank water is the coldest. (Hot water is less dense and will therefore go to the top end. The most effective way to heat the lower end is a solar panel that does NOT work with electricity but with a second circle of anti-freeze water circling to a solar panel designed to heat up water. This can be some high grade glass tube in the middle of a mirror. Cheaper is a simple black plastic tube in the sun. All you need is energy for a pump to circle the water through a heat exchange in the lower part of the storage tank. This water and your usage water will never mix! Only when needed you can add an electric heating element in the top of the tank to add that missing bit of heat to real hot water. The described version of a electric heating only solution is extremly inefficient.
Could you feed this into a sub panel and divide power to heat an outdoor water trough in winter. Summer, flip the trough defroster off, and the household tank would get the full power? Great device for resilience farming.
I have 14 360w panels on my garage. I'd like to take 2 out of my house electric and convert them to heating my 40 gal electric water heater. Will I need a charge controller or can I just plug them into a 120v or 230v heating element? Thanks.
Would you recommend separate panels that are solely used for the water heater? ....or do you typically have a solar system sending electricity to the entire home (including the water heater)?
Great video, can you please tell me what that coupler is called on the top of the vertical pole. I have a vertical pole from a very old satellite dish that I can use for a similar, but different application that involves a transfer switch and batteries.
Hi looking for guidance. I had a solar panels put up on my roof. the line from panels to box then splits from box to household and grid.is there away of splitting from box to setup bty storage for prepping? Would I need a separate converter or would the main box already have one built-in...thanks if you or anyone replys
Can DC be used directly to heat water using conventional heater elements? Match the output impedance of the source to the impedance of the load by arranging the components in the best series/parallel arrangement for a match.
Can? Yes But you lose efficiency doing it that way. A DC element makes more sense. Plus, the thermostat will arc with DC and unfortunately most of the supposed DC thermostats are not any good either. So get a UL listed DC thermostat and a DC element.
@@peternias7646 The difference is the Cyberinverter and other devices like it are MPPT so they impedance match for different sun levels. If you do it with our MPPT you will only be ample to select the heating element for a certain (maximum sun) condition at reduced sun levels you the more sophisticated MPPT drivers of the elements will make 2-3x the heat compared to the direct drive methods. The issue is it's cloudy days when you need the most heat. Still something is better than wasting it.
Junktacular tech. A much better approach to solar hot water is to buy a heat pump water heater, and then just run it normally from your 240V AC output from your solar system. Currently available heat pump water heaters consume 1/3 to 1/4 the energy of a normal electric water heater. Additionally, for current models on the market today, the heat pump consumes roughly 1/10th (~450W versus ~4500W) of the instantaneous power as a a regular electric water heater element, which makes it a much easier load to drive from an off grid inverter that may have relatively low output power rating. Consequently, using a heat pump water heater on an off-grid solar system makes massive sense, as it simultaneously shrinks the required size of your solar array, the size of your battery bank, and the size of your inverter, by a substantial amount. The reduced solar system size directly reduces the cost of the system, and the reduced solar system size cost savings more than make up for the relatively high initial cost of the heat pump water heater. Solar thermal hot water systems can make some sense, but they utterly fail when you want them the most (ex: on cold cloudy days), whereas a heat pump water heater consumes low enough energy that it can still run on cold cloudy days from a normal photovoltaic solar system with a reasonably sized battery bank.
It depends on your situation. I have a "summer camp" actually in a residential neighborhood and I disconnected from grid. I heat water with PV. Didn't buy extra panels, just two really small inverters that only run only when the fridge or dishwasher operate, do use heated dry. Even my LG cloths washer has its own HW tank and run all cycles with hot water, they are cleaner than at home. I have a similar a technology controller to heat water, but it operates in parallel with my charge controller only taking extra power not used for charging be it 5W or 500W. It was dirt cheap to do. < $100. To use a HPWH I would have to invest an additional $3500. Solar is very lagging in technology of both hardware and education.
@@opera5714 Currently available heat pump water heaters are not as expensive as you think. For example, the 40 gallon Rheem XE40T10H45U0, are currently available at places like HomeDepot for $1149 (+ local sales tax). In some states, there are generous tax credits for installing heat pump water heaters, which make them even more financially beneficial for an individual to install. Even without installing a solar system, at these prices, at common utility grid electric rates, for a typical household with two or more occupants, heat pump water heaters typically have a financial payback period (ignoring effects of possible tax credits), of three years or less (but can be somewhat longer if you live alone and don't take daily showers, or, can be even faster, if you have a large family). This is essentially an investment that pays about 33% per year return. This is basically the highest yielding, lowest risk, legal, investment that a person can make today. Aside from the financial benefits, heat pump water heaters are considerably more environmentally responsible than conventional electric or gas water heaters. The downsides however, are that the water heater does make a small amount of noise during operation, and it does need to be installed such that it has access to external air (such as an uninsulated garage, or someplace internal to the house, but with additional ductwork added to enable it to obtain and exhaust external air).
@@Fritz_Schlunder I own a HPWH at home, not at camp and supplement with PV resistance. The added cost at camp would be to enlarge the battery bank, inverters etc in addition to hpwh. I have only a car battery, it is a very advanced system to demonstrate the technology. Solar is do dark ages.
I have a water heating question. Why does no one use copper tubing either on the front or back of solar panels to pull heat from the panels making them more efficient and heating water all at once?
If the copper was in front of the panels, the copper would be blocking the sun to the panels. If copper was behind the panels, the panels are blocking the sun to the copper
@@RJ-cc1fz but there is still plenty of heat behind the panels on the surface usually. On the front you would definitely have to build the panel with gaps between strings of cells to give space for the tubing but I just don’t get why there aren’t hybrid panels. Reducing heat on the cells surface is efficiency increasing and we want heat for the water... seems like a good combo
@@RJ-cc1fz agreed. I might try to build a prototype one with the coil in the encapsulation of a panel. I’ve made one before with a homemade vacuum table.
Like you said, why not. It don't need to be fully boiling water anyway because you are cooling the panels, so any heat added to the water is considered energy anyway, you can call it pre-heated water and run that to your water heater input and now you burn less energy to bring it up to temperature. You don't want any boiling happening anyway you will have huge problems, unless it is a boiler you are designing. lol And i say yes it still helps to have the cooling channels on the back, because like i just said you are cooling the panels not trying to make a steam turbine. Water running on the back will cool them from the back, when you run cold ass well water thru them i guarantee it will help cool them at the same time put a bunch of energy into the water bringing its temperature up. IMO it would be working against yourself to try and get HOT water AND a COLD panel at the same time in the same panel, because it won't work being that it is hybrid(the same panel). What i suggest is to set the goal to COOL the panels, and now any heat you get into the water out of that is considered free energy(pre-heated). See what i am saying? If you try to get HOT, not warm or less cold but HOT water out of the hybrid panel then it means the panel is too hot to be electrically efficient. And if you try to get the best electrical efficiency by keeping the water cool that runs thru the hybrid panels, then you won't have HOT water. It is because it is a hybrid you would benefit by setting the goal to keep electrical efficiency high as possible, and just consider the heat you do get to pull of as pre-heated water and that is still a good benefit. What it means is you would need to run the cold well water faster thru the panels, to keep the panels cool enough to be as efficient as possible, and the faster you run it the less heat will build in the panels. The heat will still be spread into the water, but spread into like 1000 gallons and not only into like1 gallon all at once allowing panels to be too hot. I say it is a good ideal to have hybrid panel, but like i said you can't have the best of both HOT water AND 100% electrical efficiency at the same time from the hybrid panel. BUT you can have near perfect field efficiency for PV using your ideal, along with some pre-heated water. Another ideal is to make that hybrid panel water output go to a actual solar parabolic magnifier, or you can send it anywhere you want to continue heating it for your use. See, it is still much faster and cheaper to heat water from 35 degrees to 100 degrees than to bring it from 0 degrees to 100, or minus 35 or something to 100, and you got cooler(electrically efficient) panels out of it too.
Why do I need the inverter? Why not just run dc from one or more panels in series / parallel to the element? Heating elements are purely resistive and should not care what kind of power they receive as long as the current is limited, and you can limit the current by limiting the voltage by using the right number of solar panels in series.
I just had an interesting thought. Use this setup to heat your pool. Also use the pool water as a heat battery for a heat pump system. Wintertime, pool is covered, Direct PV is heating it up, heat pump sucks it out.... I dunno...Thinking out my butt! P.S. I'm in Central Texas. This may not work well here or elsewhere.
@@atomicsmith I'm in Central Texas, the pool would stay in the low 50's maybe high 40's through the winter without the PV heater. My thoughts is this would be cheaper than a ground source system. There are people that use large ponds as a thermal battery.
Scott, so what is the difference between this inverter and just connecting the solar panels directly to the water heater. you can match the water heater element to the number of solar panels and heat water that way. and the water heater has the thermostat that controls that whole process.
There are 2 problems with hooking directly. DC voltage will jump the thermostat gap and mostly like weld the thermostat. This inverter keeps the voltage at or near the MPPT point. If you just hook panels to an element is works but there is not control and it is not as efficient.
@@engineer775 what do you mean "the thermostat gap". i thought that the thermostat is mechanical. 3 solar panels in series will put out about 120V to 130V. and you can connect them to a 240V element.
I tried contacting the producers of this product so many times my brain hurts. As an importer and large supplier of heat pumps and solar. This company has zero etiquette in response or an interest in forming a relationship with us here in Finland. Scott any ideas how you actually achieved contact with them?
No but it can be setup as a preheater to your on demand. e.g. you install an electric water heater before your on demand and pre-heat the water with solar/cybo and burn a lot let propane.
The customer ordered the panels. The panel on the bottom of the pallet was broken. Voltage was good so we installed it knowing we would be back. We replaced it on this go around.
I've been a subscriber for well over a decade. Love your videos. You look like you are really taking care of yourself. Good for you bro. You look good. I don't mean that in a gay way..............not that there's anything wrong with that. Lol.
Those are about 50% too expensive when a Growatt SPF5000es is onyl $900 has has way more features. The whole point of micro-inverters are that they are supposed to be cheap... and these are not.
I was hoping it would be under $500. Wow at 2k you are almost a third of the way towards a Sol-Ark. With solar panels so cheap nowadays I think it's best to just get more panels to eat the efficiency.
I bought 40x - 245w panels on ebay for $1600. And I can use the panels to do other things. If I had the money, and wanted it bad enough, maybe, but I don't, so I won't. Lol
They aren't exactly out front with the pricing... I found another site that listed them for two grand. If this is true, there are far better and cheaper solutions to water heating.
In NB you're going to spend that and more on an air to water heat pump installation, or evac tube collector (not the tiny Amazon types either). Unless you're talking about tankless, but you're going to pay more than the $500-$1k upfront cost when you consider that gas powered heaters require a gas contract and payment for fuel, and electric versions are so high powered (~20 kW) that you'll need extra capacity in your off grid battery bank to compensate. A couple of extra chemical batteries can eat up the savings pretty quick. Pretty sure that's why they went solar direct with this. It's easy to make a generalized statement to take a jab at someone doing good things, but a sensible person would look at their options locally and work out a proper CBA before deciding the most cost effective approach, and they certainly wouldn't preach their solution as THE for everyone. That's not how it works in the real world. Not everyone's situation is the same, and not everything boils down to cost.
@@mfgxl Yes it was not my call The manufacturer forced me to not list the price. So after showing them the video and the comments he's not letting me show the price. Not to mention that 100 emails I have received.
They make a DC water heater element, with and without thermostat. Hook direct to panel. You could also make your own tank from plastic with a flange and DC element put it inline to your water tank so when it draws water it takes in hot water reducing AC demand
Since they tend to be AC coupled for rapid shutdown compliance you would have to always feed that line with ac from either the grid or your inverter to keep the micro-inverters working and then they would only offset the heater element partly and line voltage would cause it to operate at other times. This inverter takes the dc and inverts it into an AC voltage that doesn't necessarily equal normal line voltage. Per the spec sheet "100V - 240V (10V - 264V, Single-Phase)" is its "Nominal Operating AC Output Voltage / Range". So it will spit out anything in that range and the 240 volt heater element being a resistive load can accept the wide voltage range provided its resistance is within an acceptable range. Per the spec sheet "The CyboInverter H Model should be used for 1000W-3000W heating elements of dual- or single-element electric water heaters, area heaters, hot plates, etc." so via "The resistance R in ohms (Ω) is equal to the squared voltage V in volts (V) divided by the power P in watts (W)" that would mean for a 240volt rated heating element between 1-3kw it is recommended to be between 19.2 ohms on the low end and 57.6 ohms on the higher end.
I have a meter on mine at home and depending on the weather it varies from about 4500w/hrs wants to 8500 w/hrs put into my tank everyday. Today my water was sitting at 136 degrees top to bottom in a 50 gallon tank. I have a tank booster or mixing valve to prevent scalding.
@@engineer775 thanks. Crazy use case but we have some extra panels and was calculating out if I could make a supplemental pool heater (on my wife's current wish list) out of a system like this.
@@ronnl001 I have a neighbor looking to heat a pool. It’s a 16x32’ above ground oval. We looked into the thermal direct panels. He needed 8 4’x10’ panels. The size of that system was a turnoff. Something like this would be really neat but probably not effective on that scale.
@@taylormills08 wow thanks for that. We are 18x40 in ground/gunite so I'm guessing we need something similar in size and I agree that is way too big. We have some land but the anesthetics are poor. I'm not paying $500+ a month to heat it with gas.
@@mrxmry3264 You seem new to this. Don't be a parrot. This method works just fine. Anyone touting otherwise is just feeding their own egos. Cogenerative panels are extremely expensive. I know because I built a cogenerative system. It's complicated, and not the most cost effective approach for more reasons than you likely realize. I've also built PV only heating systems and a LOT of solar thermal systems (air and water). The latter is the most efficient, but can be the most expensive due to more materials and components needed - you need collectors, tubing for the working fluid solution (water/glycol), fittings/connectors, glycol safe pumps, temp diff control valves, solar specific hot water tanks (which are SUPER expensive), expansion tanks, etc. Not to mention the space needed for all that stuff and the fact that you're constantly dealing with heat loss with a solar thermal system, ANY solar thermal system. Even the most efficient evacuated tube collector and best insulating wrap in the world isn't going to keep radiant heat from escaping the fluid transfer lines between the array and the tank on a cold winter day here in Canada. The only loss to deal with in a PV system is resistance, and that's a lot more manageable. The hot water tank for a system like what Scott's demonstrating can radiate heat all it wants during the winter - it's in the house, where it should be. Not sitting on top of an 'efficient' evac tube collector outside in the cold, wasting heat. All methods are technically effective, but not all are cost effective. There's a reason why not every off grid installation has a solar thermal system, or even most installations for that matter, and it's not because you think the installers are less competent than you. Do the math before speaking in absolutes.
You're going to use 20% efficient solar cells to make electricity to then use electricity to make heat, to heat water? Or you could have black containers inside a glass container picking up all the heat from that sun and keeping it. But since you're going for the Paramount of inefficiency.... Whywhy not usewhy not use your solar panels to split water and retrieve the hydrogen, then burn the hydrogen in an internal combustion engine generator, then use that electricity to run a water heater.
I thought I had it bad on my channel with all the armchair experts and their theories. Sorry you have to deal with this nonsense. Keyboards are easier to use than calculators, it seems.
Has anyone wonderd why Scott has not made any more video on thies? Well here's my opinion of them, I have 6 of those POS and I wish that I had NEVER seen them, they are junk. I had two die within the first month, about a year or so later two more died and shortly after that another one croked. And before someone sayes that I must be abusing them no I am not most of the time they are just sitting becouse they have never worked corectley. And now I have another one they is getting flaky. I am done with them and will be replaceing them with something I don't know with what but it won't be more of those POS.
Why bother with what is basically a car audio amplifier and do some math to find the right element? DC direct to water element? Hell run a contactor, theremostat and battery, learn basic electronic theory and some power transfer math and you won't need a tag to tell you what you can hook up
Dude is an electrician - I think he has the basics covered. Think before you speak, there's a reason this is happening. If you don't know, ask. Assuming you know better will make you look foolish more often than not.
@@JamesBiggar I've met electricians I wouldn't allow to change the oil in my car. My comment wasn't meant to denigrate it was meant to uplift as we marvel at the unlimited possibilities the universe affords us. How we receive information can say more about our intention than what information we provide and our confidence in ourselves. After close to 50 years of exsistance I can say with absolute confidence my only achievement is knowing for a fact that I know absolutely nothing at all.
@@JamesBiggar and I'll concede the comment was easily taken your way, my frustration is with the speed the industry is progressing and the access therefore average folks have to it. I currently heat 3 greenhouses from wood chips (biomass) and am often obsessed with the math involved converting one form of energy to another. Enginer775, I comprehend the thermal bank, my observation is that system is still push-pulling electrical current (dc to ac) to drive the heating element in the tank. See those heat sinks on the inverter? In my humble opinion not necessary since it's dedicated to a resistive element. Then again time spent here is not something that can sold on the market with the codes and regulations involved. As far as being more efficient and designing a personal system it's completely relevant. To the right audience I suppose.
@@DearHenryA nah bro I work for a New Jersey guy that moved to Florida and I had to remind him that making offhand remarks on virtually every phone call saying basically every white person down here has sex with their cousins was a bad business strategy.
Scott,
I have 6 of the 120 volt CyboInverters that I have had for a few of years, I have two of the standalone 4 panel units and four of the two ganged 8 panel units.
(I can't keep up with their nomenclature as they have changed and are adding new ones all the time).
The issue that I have with them is, if the level of sunlight to run them is insufficient they will try to start and then shut down then try and start again and then shut down, they will continue to do this until there is if there is a sufficient level sunlight to run them or until there is not enough light for them to start at all.
This is most common in the mornings and later in the day and all day on overcast days depending on the load. I don’t know but I would not think that this repetitive starting and stopping would be good for them.
On a good solar day “What I call A Severe Clear Day With No Clouds” I have run a Ryobi table top band saw and a Ryobi table top drill press and a Stanley 6 peak HP shop vacuum along with a 100 watt incandescent lamp all at the same time using two ganged units with 8, 250 watt panels.
As I stated it was on a very good solar day and it was near solar noon.
The CyboInverters have to have a minimum load to get them to start producing AC voltage. If memory serves me correctly I believe that I have gotten them to start producing AC voltage on as little as a 25 watt load using a 25 watt incandescent lamp.
I have found that the best way to get them run a tool is to start them on a low level load such as the 25 watt lamp then add in a 100 to 200 watt lamp then start the tool and then turn off the 100 to 200 watt lamp leaving the 25 watt lamp on.
I have found that they will not start tools that have motors with a high end rush currents even on good solar days.
I do use them to power a 1350 watt space heater in my workshop in the winter time I can run it from around 10:00 am to about 1:00 pm on a good solar day. In the event they should shut down do to clouds or at the point where there is insufficient sunlight to run them and to prevent them from starting and stopping have built a manually articulated holding relay that I use to start the heater. Once the heater is running I use the 120 volts from the CyboInverters to keep the relay energized, should the light level drop below the minimum required to produce the current and voltage required to run the heater then the CyboInverters shuts down de-energizing the relay and automatically removing the heater from the CyboInverters.
I have look at the wave form on my oscilloscope and it is not very pretty, it's somewhat nasty looking, but to be fair about it I was only running a 100 watt load at the time the wave form may improve with a heaver load making the CyboInverters work a little harder, perhaps someday I will test it.
I wanted to use them to run my Mini Split air conditioner but the voltage and current fluctuated so much while running the Mini Split I have decided against it. I do have to say that the level of support that I have received from George and Manuel at Cyboenergy the manufacture of the CyboInverters is outstanding.
I filled all backsides of my PVs with water pipe so the heat comes directly from the sun an cooles the PV to make it more efficient and parts of the power just drives the waterpump.
No need for extra equipment, efficient usage of solar and cooling of the PVs .... all in one system.
The fact that people look past this comment.. they can't see the solution.
You said I filled all backsides.
Dude you are the man. You keep up with current products and know your shit. Very impressive and amazing what you do. Keep up the Great work knowledge and doing what you do.
You do fantastic work Scott.
Idk how long I've been subbed to this channel but he's definetly one of my first 10. This whole time I had no idea his name was Scott 😂😂😭 I feel bad now 😂😭😭
great inverter. Now persons here can convert there electric water water to this system. Didn't know such inverters existed. The part about the water staying hot during the 12 hours in the night just sold me the idea. Will search your videos for more on this topic.
Looks like a very promising replacement if my current PV direct controller goes south for the winter. The only problem is that I built it around three 96 cell Sunpower modules that I have hanging around in my garage that was collecting dust. Having a nominal 65 volts open circuit won't play nicely with it unless they have a unit that is compatible with 96 cells. For being second hand modules, they still produce on the upper end of 5 kWh per day giving me plenty of hot water throughout the year.
just went to your site to get a quote cant wait
Thank you.
Great video but with battery back up and inverters, having a dedicated array system tied to just the hot water seem inefficient to me, as soon as the tank gets hot your no longer heating water and the panels are switched off but with basic immersion control you can draw heat from the whole array and when the tank gets hot and the thermostat kicks out, the whole array is helping to charge the batteries, that's how my offgrid hot water system works and when solar is low I can make a choice between heating water or running other loads depending on my needs.
Great channel, brilliant off grid instructions.
Would love to see what water heaters can work with the dump load on the Sol-Ark. I’d prefer a natural gas water heater that has an electric element in it for the dump load.
Is that option reasonably priced? What's an example of a water heater that is electric/gas? I like the idea of heating an indirect tank with an 80%+ combi boiler OR electric/dump load. Gas heaters are not nearly as well insulated as any off-the-shelf electric water heater. Most gas water heaters I have looked at do not see very efficent opitions so operating cost may not be much less than an electric model.
A thing of beauty
Quick question, if I remember correctly you installed sol arc at this property which has the function to heat hot water when batteries are full. Any reason you chose the cyboinverter instead of going through sol arc?
I get nervous when I see "get a quote", "call for price" for products. That usually means its very expensive. I have a parts washer that uses a single 120v 1000 watt element that isn't used much so this would be great to keep the water hot.
Yep, a terrible business model in almost every circumstance. Just tell me the damn price!
@@ryanroberts1104 $1000
@@questioneverything4601 LOL! So about five times more than it could possibly be worth? Engineer775 is an idiot.
@@ryanroberts1104 I don't know if he paid for promoting products. But it begs the question, Why isn't everyone heating their hot water with just 4 panels. .. The market is worth billions...
@@questioneverything4601 Didn't sound like a paid promotion. If anybody pays that much for that they are a moron, there are so many, many other ways to heat water without an overpriced inverter. Inverting power for a heating element is ridiculous!
I have a propane tank that only powers the tankless water heater - a 100 gallon tank ($300) lasts 4-5 years for all the water heating in my home.
If you really want solar hot water they make direct heating panels, which are cheaper, and do not require an inverter of any sort. PV panels really should just be pooled and power any random load in the house, whether hot water or otherwise, and then switch over to hot water only if there is excess power production.
Just found your channel and so far loving it keep up the good work
How does the price of a PV dedicated direct system like this compare to a traditional active solar hot water system? What are the major advantages / disadvantages of each? Great video. Thanks.
What size wire are you running from the device to the water heater? How big are the panels also. This hooks to then bottom element?
That is interesting, i wonder how much better or worse this is compared to heating water using parabolic solar magnifier of the same footprint.
Why not convert the lower water heater element with a solid state relay and use DC across the element?
Its better to buy this thing for $2515.00 .............right?......
u can match the element to your panel setup and use DC
Grid goes down and he looses the ability to heat water but this is a micro inverter for 4 panels. It is for a grid tie system and the price is outlandish. $2515 bucks says the web site.
I was hoping that you would show us how you installed the CyboInverter. oh well, maybe next time.
I agree! It was informative to point out what is available for doing this, but there was to step-by-step on how to connect the cables or if he used the existing #10 ga. cable back to the home.
Cool man I love following your video to learn more about engineering
Nice, I love it
Missouri solar wind, have true 12-volt heating elements with a dial thermostat. Interesting setup I'll have to check it out
What's the difference between 12volt and 240v elements? I like the idea of AC voltage to the water heater.
Haven’t finished watching yet but why the bottom element? I’ve heard of peeps only using the top element when on the grid. Thx
Could those panels be connected to water heater with integrated heat pump?
What an awesome channel! Thanks
Would this work for a deep well pump?
No it will not. This model only works on resistive loads. If you send me and email I can email you back other applications. info@practicalpreppers.com
How would this system do heating a swimming pool? Looking to add a couple months to swim season in Tennessee.
In an off grid set up, can I take 3 of these and use them as the AC input on my hybrid 5kw wall mount inverter?
They are so expensive here in Canada better off putting that money toward a heat pump water heater which are also expensive.
I just don't really understand this tbh. Like why would you put up panels that are only for hot water? Wouldn't just added thos panels to your set-up be better overall? Just the fact that you will have times tho's panels aren't needed to heat the water so your wasting the energy they can produce? Can't you get the same or better outcome with the water tank on a timer?
@@dizzlethe7346 Not necessarily. As he mentioned, a tank of water is technically a (thermal) battery. It IS an energy storage device. Feeding the power into a chemical battery bank, then taking power from the bank to dump it into a thermal battery requires higher capacity components and involves more energy loss because it has to travel through more wires and circuits which = more resistance eating up power. A 5% or more loss is inevitable taking that route. THAT is a waste of power. The panels in a properly sized off grid system won't be charging a battery of any kind all day - the bank should be charged long before the day ends on a good, sunny day. That doesn't mean wasted power, it means surplus power. That's a good thing. It means you've done something right vs getting nervous at the end of the day because you didn't size your pv array big enough to fully charge the battery before the sun goes down. The latter is not a good scenario - that's wasted time and effort. Not to mention, having solar direct to the hot water instead of having everything connected to one main system adds redundancy, which is extremely important for off grid systems like this. They can't rely on the main for back up like a grid tied owner can. If the main system goes down here for whatever reason, then at least they'll still have hot water without having to run a petrol generator. Multiple redundancies should be built into every off grid system the same way the corporate utility builds them into their infrastructures, otherwise you're going to be up sh_t creek without a paddle if/when there's an outage. This is off grid living done right.
@@JamesBiggar I mean he is sending it to an inverter tho DC to AC right? An I did miss speak in a way I suppose, When I mean timer Is a connection going off of the DC pulled from the panel as it is getting feed into your sol-ark or w.e from the strings. Only turning on when overriding it or the Battery pack itself is full. This way you your have less surplus/WASTED energy and money... If it was about having back-ups you would section out everything wouldn't you? As far as sizing a system. That is basically what I am talking about. Y would you not size the WHOLE system to the worst day/month like 775 has said b4. An use the KNOWN surplus made to supply the thermal batteries after the solid ones are done?. Buying a second 40g or just an 80g heat pump model would mean LESS money overall, Less power draw, Larger heat storage but most of all less overall wasted energy also. You could end up with 3/4 preheaters with the amount you pay for the other set-up. CIM-1200A/H is $1200 with 4/5% loss, running an extra conduit with wire the post another 1000-1500 or well more when you add the extra labor costs of connections also.
Ya you can get another 5kw battery 12-1500, extra heat pump 80g 500w DC heat pump 5-800 then keep a few bucks in the pocket to buy back-up parts/boards that will go bad on the Sol-arks Growatts or outbacks so you have multiple redundancies of whole home power loss rather then just hot water....
I keep talking about sol-ark BC he says that is the system in place an bc they are SET-UP to be able to have hot an cold water battery banks hooked to the AUX an use what is normally wasted surplus power, So I was just wondering y not go that route (yes it is 3% more "loss" but it is surplus...) use the sol-ark as intended, At the same time saving 3k (LOW end) for the customer. But at the same time also giving the customer the option of heating hot water when you have no sun too...
He has MANY other videos he has done it the way I am talking about off the AUX of the Sol-ark even a few off combiners (early videos) on a timer that pulled off the feed of invertor. So I guess in a way I was more asking if 775 if it was a customer like you that wanted it this way or if it was a special reason he wanted it this way.... I just don't understand not either upgrading other aspects of the main build first to get higher yields more storage an or spare parts over hot water you can make EZ with thne back-ups of main power.
@@JamesBiggar Do not get me wrong tho... You have apps that work with this. Like cabins in the wood that hauling batteries too is not a thing. So direct connection is the only way for things like just plain water much less hot water along with a fridge/crap freezers sure. But IMO it is INSANE to do that to this set-up. Like he has a $2200 water heater tank on top of it all we are talking a near 6K more, To put into the main system. I.E PV tech it's self to get higher watts per foot an or From a "5" to 6.8 closer to 7 then his 5 lol (375watt panels not the 265s) the panels options at the time, Or panel array set-up go from the 18 to the 24 same 3 post set-up , Larger battery storage, More PV and most of all bigger and or staged hot water tanks with way WAY higher efficiency ratings then the 1=1 they have now... ROFL. IDGAF if going into a sol-ark has a 93% rating an the CyboInverter 1200 has a 95/96% when you can get a 30+seer rated 80g heat-pump water heater that has a 1=3-4.3 (depending on temps) that kind of blows it all away. Like 2/3% top end over a return of 300%hmm. The only extra cost of doing it RIGHT! Is if you have extra crap days/want the back-up of the gen on the AUX of sol-ark. Then you have to add a 30amp sub panel that the water heaters/sub-load an gen connect to off of the sol-ark adding timers to the "surplus" load to only turn on at certain times so when the gen comes on (late night/morning) it's not feeding the loads but the batteries. On the same note (this build) having the extra 6k will go a massive way into not needing the stand-by gen, Plus you can always run a cord or two to the main loads (well pump, fridge) to run on the gen till the batteries top out again, In turn not needing the the small sub-box an it's cost's.
@@JamesBiggar At the end of the day. This to me is a teaching lesson on doing it right the first time, Do your homework and save tons of $$$. For real tho On some napkin math. adding $40x18=720 for panel upgrades along with the extra $280 for the other 6x280=1680 you get $2400 extra in panels with an output of 9k right off the rip not the 4.8k array now. will say $2500 total for the extra labor of... Not cutting the I-beams shorter tho? To fit the 18 an not the 24 panels it was made for? I guess lol. Naw For extra wiring to the combiner tho ha. $1500 another 5kw battery. $800 tops for a WAY better bigger hot water tank. With $1200ish left over for either boards fuses and "light" inverters incase yours turds out. Or the best route take that $1200 and upgrade from the 24 with 2 rows to the 32 with 3 rows array. An get this! Save the money later from the heavy equipment cost's an everything that comes with a second array, At the same time being able to get 12kws not 9.6k in less space as they "upgraded" to here XD. All with lower HELLA lower "upgrade" cost's.. BC be serious here if they had the 9K array with a larger battery would they need to "upgrade" to a double 4.8=9.6k array. This all could have been put on one slightly larger array with better PV panels, Pocketing the $1200 and the second set cost's as a whole! Saving you a GOOD 8-$12,000 I am sure also enough for another back-up system when you take it in. DAMN. Enough for a GoalZero or dual 4kw Yetti emergency systems with it's own 2kw solar, transfer/pairing box for 50amp connections with 2-4k to spare for spare parts even, By the end of this video for sure lol.
Extra; With the low draw hot water tank wouldn't be hard to have it run off the same gen (even back-up system) your running the house off if something goes sideways with the main system also to top it off. This leads me back around y hook it up like this to this? BC doing it the bigger right way or at least them pushing customers to that will ehlp them too in the long run, It would me less ppl on call backs like this leading to more ppl being covered an more money for them in the grand scheme of things. Don't get me wrong I see the SAME shet at every place I get contracted to set post's at off-grid apps that's how I get thos jobs tho they spread thin lol. "Will make all this stuff run on DC off a bunch of small set-ups" So they don't get sticker shock off one thing alone most of all the battery storage/inverter cost's. Still paying a shit ton of money for the special DC crap even more then if they did it right the first time. Plus they get you good like this video when something shet's out in the heater and you have to make it go AC anyway, With an extra $1200 inverter and a new board bc they don't make DC replacements LOL. MAKING IT so if the hotwater goes out you need your solar guy to fix it, Fking priceless! XD
Great information
Thank you sir!
Do you install the Outback Flexmax MPPT solar charge controllers at all? It appears from the manual that it can be set up with a PWM relay output for a diversion load controller. Just add a solid state relay and a DC water heating element. Then any time the voltage hits the absorb or float voltages, it will heat your water. Thoughts?
This can be really helpful with excess power
That is what I am doing , when the flexmax goes to float it will send signal to a 12 volt temperature controller and if there is a call for it then it will send signal to a DC to DC SS relay and turn on the Dc element in the water tank.
Hey engineer, how has this solution held up? Just wondering what the fail rate has been after 4 years
Why are you not running PEX along the backsides of the panels to help keep them at operating temperature and recover the Heat
The art of making hot water is to do it in stages. At the lower end of an insulated storage tank water is the coldest. (Hot water is less dense and will therefore go to the top end. The most effective way to heat the lower end is a solar panel that does NOT work with electricity but with a second circle of anti-freeze water circling to a solar panel designed to heat up water. This can be some high grade glass tube in the middle of a mirror. Cheaper is a simple black plastic tube in the sun. All you need is energy for a pump to circle the water through a heat exchange in the lower part of the storage tank. This water and your usage water will never mix! Only when needed you can add an electric heating element in the top of the tank to add that missing bit of heat to real hot water. The described version of a electric heating only solution is extremly inefficient.
sure. post that video yet?
Right. Because every self proclaimed Einstein in the making with a garden hose at their disposal hasn't tried it yet. Dunning-Kruger hard at work...
Could you feed this into a sub panel and divide power to heat an outdoor water trough in winter.
Summer, flip the trough defroster off, and the household tank would get the full power?
Great device for resilience farming.
I have 14 360w panels on my garage. I'd like to take 2 out of my house electric and convert them to heating my 40 gal electric water heater. Will I need a charge controller or can I just plug them into a 120v or 230v heating element? Thanks.
WOW NICE !!!
With that low of amperage, was going with 10AWG instead of 12AWG due to voltage drop over the run?
Components Fried? No lightning arrestors?
Your link when I click on it is broken you might want to have it fixed it says product not available
I'm building the same system..Do I really need a cybolnverter? Can't I just hook four panels in series and use a 48v element?
So did you lose that second bag of concrete yet?
Where can I get them and how much are they?
Was MPPT mentioned? What was wrong with DC?
Would you recommend separate panels that are solely used for the water heater? ....or do you typically have a solar system sending electricity to the entire home (including the water heater)?
Great video, can you please tell me what that coupler is called on the top of the vertical pole. I have a vertical pole from a very old satellite dish that I can use for a similar, but different application that involves a transfer switch and batteries.
How much solar do you need to make this work on a 50 gallon hot water heater?
What is the advantage of using the inverter vs using dc heating element
Hi looking for guidance. I had a solar panels put up on my roof. the line from panels to box then splits from box to household and grid.is there away of splitting from box to setup bty storage for prepping? Would I need a separate converter or would the main box already have one built-in...thanks if you or anyone replys
how would this compare to a non-PV collector type to heat water?
Can DC be used directly to heat water using conventional heater elements? Match the output impedance of the source to the impedance of the load by arranging the components in the best series/parallel arrangement for a match.
Can? Yes
But you lose efficiency doing it that way. A DC element makes more sense.
Plus, the thermostat will arc with DC and unfortunately most of the supposed DC thermostats are not any good either.
So get a UL listed DC thermostat and a DC element.
Then use a digital temp sensor with relay. Cheap from aliexpress
@@peternias7646 The difference is the Cyberinverter and other devices like it are MPPT so they impedance match for different sun levels. If you do it with our MPPT you will only be ample to select the heating element for a certain (maximum sun) condition at reduced sun levels you the more sophisticated MPPT drivers of the elements will make 2-3x the heat compared to the direct drive methods. The issue is it's cloudy days when you need the most heat. Still something is better than wasting it.
Is there a loss calc for the inverter? Or does it say how efficient it is?
96% efficient/99% MPPT
Junktacular tech. A much better approach to solar hot water is to buy a heat pump water heater, and then just run it normally from your 240V AC output from your solar system. Currently available heat pump water heaters consume 1/3 to 1/4 the energy of a normal electric water heater. Additionally, for current models on the market today, the heat pump consumes roughly 1/10th (~450W versus ~4500W) of the instantaneous power as a a regular electric water heater element, which makes it a much easier load to drive from an off grid inverter that may have relatively low output power rating. Consequently, using a heat pump water heater on an off-grid solar system makes massive sense, as it simultaneously shrinks the required size of your solar array, the size of your battery bank, and the size of your inverter, by a substantial amount. The reduced solar system size directly reduces the cost of the system, and the reduced solar system size cost savings more than make up for the relatively high initial cost of the heat pump water heater.
Solar thermal hot water systems can make some sense, but they utterly fail when you want them the most (ex: on cold cloudy days), whereas a heat pump water heater consumes low enough energy that it can still run on cold cloudy days from a normal photovoltaic solar system with a reasonably sized battery bank.
It depends on your situation. I have a "summer camp" actually in a residential neighborhood and I disconnected from grid. I heat water with PV. Didn't buy extra panels, just two really small inverters that only run only when the fridge or dishwasher operate, do use heated dry. Even my LG cloths washer has its own HW tank and run all cycles with hot water, they are cleaner than at home. I have a similar a technology controller to heat water, but it operates in parallel with my charge controller only taking extra power not used for charging be it 5W or 500W. It was dirt cheap to do. < $100. To use a HPWH I would have to invest an additional $3500. Solar is very lagging in technology of both hardware and education.
@@opera5714 Currently available heat pump water heaters are not as expensive as you think. For example, the 40 gallon Rheem XE40T10H45U0, are currently available at places like HomeDepot for $1149 (+ local sales tax). In some states, there are generous tax credits for installing heat pump water heaters, which make them even more financially beneficial for an individual to install. Even without installing a solar system, at these prices, at common utility grid electric rates, for a typical household with two or more occupants, heat pump water heaters typically have a financial payback period (ignoring effects of possible tax credits), of three years or less (but can be somewhat longer if you live alone and don't take daily showers, or, can be even faster, if you have a large family).
This is essentially an investment that pays about 33% per year return. This is basically the highest yielding, lowest risk, legal, investment that a person can make today. Aside from the financial benefits, heat pump water heaters are considerably more environmentally responsible than conventional electric or gas water heaters.
The downsides however, are that the water heater does make a small amount of noise during operation, and it does need to be installed such that it has access to external air (such as an uninsulated garage, or someplace internal to the house, but with additional ductwork added to enable it to obtain and exhaust external air).
@@Fritz_Schlunder I own a HPWH at home, not at camp and supplement with PV resistance. The added cost at camp would be to enlarge the battery bank, inverters etc in addition to hpwh. I have only a car battery, it is a very advanced system to demonstrate the technology. Solar is do dark ages.
Since the homeowner was already using DC only, why the need for converting to AC? Seems like unnecessary cost for inversion so what did I miss?
The thermostat in the water heater can't switch DC without burning up.
Thanks a lot...😄
how do I get one?
Could you use the non used cables to parallel into the other two used ones?
Nope but you could connect a battery.
@@engineer775 what size panels are you running with this. What’s your experience with how much solar is required to make this efficient.
At $998 is the UL rating worth it?
No
I was looking for the price tag. That’s a pretty penny.
Well the UL costs money. I wish it was less.
What a racquet
could it run a heat pump? just wonding
Not this model but there are a few models that can run heat pumps. Particularly mini splits.
@@engineer775 Thanks
broken link, page not found
you've gone from $259 to $1500 with your newer model. Can we still get the first unit?
Price is around $1200?
I have a water heating question. Why does no one use copper tubing either on the front or back of solar panels to pull heat from the panels making them more efficient and heating water all at once?
If the copper was in front of the panels, the copper would be blocking the sun to the panels. If copper was behind the panels, the panels are blocking the sun to the copper
@@RJ-cc1fz but there is still plenty of heat behind the panels on the surface usually. On the front you would definitely have to build the panel with gaps between strings of cells to give space for the tubing but I just don’t get why there aren’t hybrid panels. Reducing heat on the cells surface is efficiency increasing and we want heat for the water... seems like a good combo
@@erichester76 there imo wouldn’t be enough heat under the panels. The copper coil should get as much sun as possible for it to adequately heat water.
@@RJ-cc1fz agreed. I might try to build a prototype one with the coil in the encapsulation of a panel. I’ve made one before with a homemade vacuum table.
Like you said, why not. It don't need to be fully boiling water anyway because you are cooling the panels, so any heat added to the water is considered energy anyway, you can call it pre-heated water and run that to your water heater input and now you burn less energy to bring it up to temperature. You don't want any boiling happening anyway you will have huge problems, unless it is a boiler you are designing. lol
And i say yes it still helps to have the cooling channels on the back, because like i just said you are cooling the panels not trying to make a steam turbine. Water running on the back will cool them from the back, when you run cold ass well water thru them i guarantee it will help cool them at the same time put a bunch of energy into the water bringing its temperature up.
IMO it would be working against yourself to try and get HOT water AND a COLD panel at the same time in the same panel, because it won't work being that it is hybrid(the same panel). What i suggest is to set the goal to COOL the panels, and now any heat you get into the water out of that is considered free energy(pre-heated). See what i am saying? If you try to get HOT, not warm or less cold but HOT water out of the hybrid panel then it means the panel is too hot to be electrically efficient. And if you try to get the best electrical efficiency by keeping the water cool that runs thru the hybrid panels, then you won't have HOT water. It is because it is a hybrid you would benefit by setting the goal to keep electrical efficiency high as possible, and just consider the heat you do get to pull of as pre-heated water and that is still a good benefit. What it means is you would need to run the cold well water faster thru the panels, to keep the panels cool enough to be as efficient as possible, and the faster you run it the less heat will build in the panels. The heat will still be spread into the water, but spread into like 1000 gallons and not only into like1 gallon all at once allowing panels to be too hot.
I say it is a good ideal to have hybrid panel, but like i said you can't have the best of both HOT water AND 100% electrical efficiency at the same time from the hybrid panel. BUT you can have near perfect field efficiency for PV using your ideal, along with some pre-heated water. Another ideal is to make that hybrid panel water output go to a actual solar parabolic magnifier, or you can send it anywhere you want to continue heating it for your use. See, it is still much faster and cheaper to heat water from 35 degrees to 100 degrees than to bring it from 0 degrees to 100, or minus 35 or something to 100, and you got cooler(electrically efficient) panels out of it too.
Why do I need the inverter? Why not just run dc from one or more panels in series / parallel to the element? Heating elements are purely resistive and should not care what kind of power they receive as long as the current is limited, and you can limit the current by limiting the voltage by using the right number of solar panels in series.
I just had an interesting thought. Use this setup to heat your pool. Also use the pool water as a heat battery for a heat pump system. Wintertime, pool is covered, Direct PV is heating it up, heat pump sucks it out.... I dunno...Thinking out my butt! P.S. I'm in Central Texas. This may not work well here or elsewhere.
Ground source would probably be easier. You would have to insulate the pool like crazy, including a super insulated cover.
@@atomicsmith I'm in Central Texas, the pool would stay in the low 50's maybe high 40's through the winter without the PV heater. My thoughts is this would be cheaper than a ground source system. There are people that use large ponds as a thermal battery.
Scott, so what is the difference between this inverter and just connecting the solar panels directly to the water heater. you can match the water heater element to the number of solar panels and heat water that way. and the water heater has the thermostat that controls that whole process.
There are 2 problems with hooking directly. DC voltage will jump the thermostat gap and mostly like weld the thermostat. This inverter keeps the voltage at or near the MPPT point. If you just hook panels to an element is works but there is not control and it is not as efficient.
@@engineer775 what do you mean "the thermostat gap". i thought that the thermostat is mechanical. 3 solar panels in series will put out about 120V to 130V. and you can connect them to a 240V element.
@@mlg779 I believe the thermostat is designed to switch AC rather than DC and will arc until it fails.
@@sonictech1000 Correct.
@@sonictech1000 Good to know. I still want to see best way to connect directly with no inverter.
I tried contacting the producers of this product so many times my brain hurts. As an importer and large supplier of heat pumps and solar. This company has zero etiquette in response or an interest in forming a relationship with us here in Finland. Scott any ideas how you actually achieved contact with them?
Ever since COVID they have not interacted with us.
So, this does not work on on demand water heaters?
No but it can be setup as a preheater to your on demand. e.g. you install an electric water heater before your on demand and pre-heat the water with solar/cybo and burn a lot let propane.
@3:53 why would you install a broken panel
The customer ordered the panels. The panel on the bottom of the pallet was broken. Voltage was good so we installed it knowing we would be back. We replaced it on this go around.
I've been a subscriber for well over a decade. Love your videos. You look like you are really taking care of yourself. Good for you bro. You look good. I don't mean that in a gay way..............not that there's anything wrong with that. Lol.
That's a classic Seinfeld line 😂😂😂
Heat pump is another solution...solar > electrickery > heat pump > hot water 😁
Scott I still waiting for your email. I need send you to test astronomy solar tracker system
Sorry sir I must have missed your request. info@practicalpreppers.com
Those are about 50% too expensive when a Growatt SPF5000es is onyl $900 has has way more features. The whole point of micro-inverters are that they are supposed to be cheap... and these are not.
We have used it India too...
Ouch 2k for a cybo
I was hoping it would be under $500. Wow at 2k you are almost a third of the way towards a Sol-Ark. With solar panels so cheap nowadays I think it's best to just get more panels to eat the efficiency.
@@MrJramirex Yeah that's what I do used panels to make hot water $50 each 250w I can buy a whole lot of solar panels for $2000.
2k is simply too much for a microinverter...
I bought 40x - 245w panels on ebay for $1600. And I can use the panels to do other things. If I had the money, and wanted it bad enough, maybe, but I don't, so I won't. Lol
@@houseofancients Only Enphase for me
They aren't exactly out front with the pricing... I found another site that listed them for two grand. If this is true, there are far better and cheaper solutions to water heating.
1150.00
In NB you're going to spend that and more on an air to water heat pump installation, or evac tube collector (not the tiny Amazon types either). Unless you're talking about tankless, but you're going to pay more than the $500-$1k upfront cost when you consider that gas powered heaters require a gas contract and payment for fuel, and electric versions are so high powered (~20 kW) that you'll need extra capacity in your off grid battery bank to compensate. A couple of extra chemical batteries can eat up the savings pretty quick. Pretty sure that's why they went solar direct with this. It's easy to make a generalized statement to take a jab at someone doing good things, but a sensible person would look at their options locally and work out a proper CBA before deciding the most cost effective approach, and they certainly wouldn't preach their solution as THE for everyone. That's not how it works in the real world. Not everyone's situation is the same, and not everything boils down to cost.
@@engineer775 See how much time you wasted by not listing the price in the links? Smart hah?
@@mfgxl Yes it was not my call The manufacturer forced me to not list the price. So after showing them the video and the comments he's not letting me show the price. Not to mention that 100 emails I have received.
I deal with the CEO. Of this Ben.
They make a DC water heater element, with and without thermostat. Hook direct to panel. You could also make your own tank from plastic with a flange and DC element put it inline to your water tank so when it draws water it takes in hot water reducing AC demand
That is the way solar muggles do it. Inefficient, but no knowledge is needed.
I'm in the wrong business.
Should have started a company building Cyboinverters.
Want to build one? I'll tell you how.
@@opera5714 I want to know how
Buy something with silver or gold
Could you just use a micro inverter?
Since they tend to be AC coupled for rapid shutdown compliance you would have to always feed that line with ac from either the grid or your inverter to keep the micro-inverters working and then they would only offset the heater element partly and line voltage would cause it to operate at other times. This inverter takes the dc and inverts it into an AC voltage that doesn't necessarily equal normal line voltage. Per the spec sheet "100V - 240V (10V - 264V, Single-Phase)" is its "Nominal Operating AC Output Voltage / Range". So it will spit out anything in that range and the 240 volt heater element being a resistive load can accept the wide voltage range provided its resistance is within an acceptable range. Per the spec sheet "The CyboInverter H Model should be used for 1000W-3000W heating elements of dual- or single-element
electric water heaters, area heaters, hot plates, etc." so via "The resistance R in ohms (Ω) is equal to the squared voltage V in volts (V) divided by the power P in watts (W)" that would mean for a 240volt rated heating element between 1-3kw it is recommended to be between 19.2 ohms on the low end and 57.6 ohms on the higher end.
no.
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What is some real world performance as far as how long it takes to heat the water?
I have a meter on mine at home and depending on the weather it varies from about 4500w/hrs wants to 8500 w/hrs put into my tank everyday. Today my water was sitting at 136 degrees top to bottom in a 50 gallon tank. I have a tank booster or mixing valve to prevent scalding.
@@engineer775 thanks. Crazy use case but we have some extra panels and was calculating out if I could make a supplemental pool heater (on my wife's current wish list) out of a system like this.
@@ronnl001 I have a neighbor looking to heat a pool. It’s a 16x32’ above ground oval. We looked into the thermal direct panels. He needed 8 4’x10’ panels. The size of that system was a turnoff.
Something like this would be really neat but probably not effective on that scale.
@@taylormills08 wow thanks for that. We are 18x40 in ground/gunite so I'm guessing we need something similar in size and I agree that is way too big. We have some land but the anesthetics are poor. I'm not paying $500+ a month to heat it with gas.
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Why can't you just tell us how much they cost instead of "Just ask for a quote" and end up on some mailing list.
This doesn’t make sense to me… why not just wire the dc direct to the element? It’s all about the ohms.
You have no understanding of PV panel characteristics and ohms law. PV direct is what stupid people do.
@@opera5714 oh master of all things electrical, do explain this to me.
if you want the sun to heat your water, then solar electric is not the way to go.
Says you. Been doing it for years with awesome results and it works awesome in super cold climates.
@@engineer775 solar thermal is more effective. and there are panels that give you both electricity and hot water.
@@mrxmry3264 You seem new to this. Don't be a parrot. This method works just fine. Anyone touting otherwise is just feeding their own egos. Cogenerative panels are extremely expensive. I know because I built a cogenerative system. It's complicated, and not the most cost effective approach for more reasons than you likely realize. I've also built PV only heating systems and a LOT of solar thermal systems (air and water). The latter is the most efficient, but can be the most expensive due to more materials and components needed - you need collectors, tubing for the working fluid solution (water/glycol), fittings/connectors, glycol safe pumps, temp diff control valves, solar specific hot water tanks (which are SUPER expensive), expansion tanks, etc. Not to mention the space needed for all that stuff and the fact that you're constantly dealing with heat loss with a solar thermal system, ANY solar thermal system. Even the most efficient evacuated tube collector and best insulating wrap in the world isn't going to keep radiant heat from escaping the fluid transfer lines between the array and the tank on a cold winter day here in Canada. The only loss to deal with in a PV system is resistance, and that's a lot more manageable. The hot water tank for a system like what Scott's demonstrating can radiate heat all it wants during the winter - it's in the house, where it should be. Not sitting on top of an 'efficient' evac tube collector outside in the cold, wasting heat. All methods are technically effective, but not all are cost effective. There's a reason why not every off grid installation has a solar thermal system, or even most installations for that matter, and it's not because you think the installers are less competent than you. Do the math before speaking in absolutes.
They do not sell to the public. Must go through an installer. Increases the price. Not sold to the DIY community! Sad!
Companies that want to take this route can go pound sand. Dumb
You're going to use 20% efficient solar cells to make electricity to then use electricity to make heat, to heat water?
Or you could have black containers inside a glass container picking up all the heat from that sun and keeping it.
But since you're going for the Paramount of inefficiency....
Whywhy not usewhy not use your solar panels to split water and retrieve the hydrogen, then burn the hydrogen in an internal combustion engine generator, then use that electricity to run a water heater.
That all sound great in theory. Post your installation and we'll critique and compare.
I thought I had it bad on my channel with all the armchair experts and their theories. Sorry you have to deal with this nonsense. Keyboards are easier to use than calculators, it seems.
Has anyone wonderd why Scott has not made any more video on thies? Well here's my opinion of them, I have 6 of those POS and I wish that I had NEVER seen them, they are junk. I had two die within the first month, about a year or so later two more died and shortly after that another one croked. And before someone sayes that I must be abusing them no I am not most of the time they are just sitting becouse they have never worked corectley. And now I have another one they is getting flaky. I am done with them and will be replaceing them with something I don't know with what but it won't be more of those POS.
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No offence, but you can't possibly be Engineer 775. Your engineering number must start at a minimum of 42000; So you would be Engineer42775
If go solar should not shower every day wasting water
As soon as anything like this that shouldn't be more than a few hundred bucks says "get a quote"...I'm out. That is absolutely stupid.
Then do it yourself
@@htsyami I do. Anybody that pays for shit like this is an absolute moron! Dan has an ongoing issue doing pointless absurdly expensive projects.
don't enphase inverters do this also
nope. Enphase inverters require 240volt to even start. this is an off grid inverter.
Why bother with what is basically a car audio amplifier and do some math to find the right element? DC direct to water element? Hell run a contactor, theremostat and battery, learn basic electronic theory and some power transfer math and you won't need a tag to tell you what you can hook up
You obviously missed the point of the project. The water heater is the battery.
Dude is an electrician - I think he has the basics covered. Think before you speak, there's a reason this is happening. If you don't know, ask. Assuming you know better will make you look foolish more often than not.
@@JamesBiggar I've met electricians I wouldn't allow to change the oil in my car. My comment wasn't meant to denigrate it was meant to uplift as we marvel at the unlimited possibilities the universe affords us. How we receive information can say more about our intention than what information we provide and our confidence in ourselves. After close to 50 years of exsistance I can say with absolute confidence my only achievement is knowing for a fact that I know absolutely nothing at all.
@@JamesBiggar and I'll concede the comment was easily taken your way, my frustration is with the speed the industry is progressing and the access therefore average folks have to it. I currently heat 3 greenhouses from wood chips (biomass) and am often obsessed with the math involved converting one form of energy to another. Enginer775, I comprehend the thermal bank, my observation is that system is still push-pulling electrical current (dc to ac) to drive the heating element in the tank. See those heat sinks on the inverter? In my humble opinion not necessary since it's dedicated to a resistive element. Then again time spent here is not something that can sold on the market with the codes and regulations involved. As far as being more efficient and designing a personal system it's completely relevant. To the right audience I suppose.
I hate your intro music. Can't you find something that is better than someone stabbing the same note incessantly?
When their hillbilly accent is so bad that sub titles are needed.
You have to know I'm kidding.
@@DearHenryA nah bro I work for a New Jersey guy that moved to Florida and I had to remind him that making offhand remarks on virtually every phone call saying basically every white person down here has sex with their cousins was a bad business strategy.
How dare you! lol. It was windy and wasn't sure you could hear my hillbilly voice.
@@engineer775 Ha, yeah I know. You don't have much of an accent at all that I can tell. I thought it was funny though, like watching Swamp People.
@@DearHenryA