Just how valid are the claims of Rhaenyra's three (STRONG) sons?
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- Опубликовано: 19 окт 2023
- The topic of illegitimacy has been one discussed since the old days of GOT. With house the Dragon and the birth of Rhaenyra's children it has once again come into question about what truly gives someone the right to inherit in Westeros. Is it their blood, or perhaps the sentiment and words of others?
#breakdown #characteranalysis #explained #film #asoiaf #hotd #fantasy #facts 
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Look I always tell people just because I love team Black doesn't mean the Greens don't have a point for being upset 😂😂
Yeah, she committed High Treason 3 times over, even Harwin's father knew this was a bad idea 😅
I get why the greens were upset but the greens were upset before rhaenyra had any bastards, if all her children were true born their loves would've still been in danger and the rivalry between the children would've still existed.
Otto said to Rhaenyra , “The succession changed the moment your father sired a son” So it didn’t even matter if she had trueborn sons by Laenor the greens were ALWAYS gonna crown Aegon since he was born.
@@sydnitheromantictaylor112 Yep which is one of the reasons I am Team Black lol But based on the "old dusty rules" they can claim that as a reason to be mad lol
@@tytybaby06 I can't stand Otto lol
It’s interesting that people cannot forgive Cersei for fathering bastards and yet they give rhaenyra enough slack
Giving birth to. Only men can father.
their circumstances are extremely different as a i hope you understand
@@luigi-1545 They consentually sired bastards. Circumstanctual differences are irrelevant.
@@NikephorosBotaneiates-ux1lx
Valid point, until Rhaenyra tries to make her second bastard son heir to Driftmark, which claim would come from Leanor if the strong boys were his
Cersei cheated on obert. Rhaneyra was open with Laenor.
It's no wonder why so many lords would be unhappy to fight for Rhaenyra and her family. In most of Westeros women are not allowed to inherit over male heirs, and bastards are considered evil and immoral, and her children are obviously not legitimate but both Rhaenyra and her children have been snuck in without changing any laws or customs to allow it and people have died challenging the obvious. Now she wants these lords (most of whom have only heard scandal and rumour from kings landing) to walk into dragon fire because your father pinky swore to protect her. No wonder so many jumped ship.
Do you seriously believe that if she had white haired babies her opponents would simply accept her??? They would still made rumours that children are bastards (just that they took after mother). In book boys can be actually legitimate and situation is still the same. Boys are legitimate, because they were recognized by father. THAT is the law.
By your logic any father can decide that any child from his wife, wether it looks like him, or was fathered by him, is a bastard. Viserys can decide that Rhaenyra is a bastard...
Ned literally draw the conclusion of the bastardity of Cercei's children in the same way. Robert died thinking that they were his and explicitly named the oldest heir.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 If legitimacy only depended of a father's recognition then Joffrey would've never been questioned. That's not how things work in ASOIAF, deal with it.
Literally only 2 kingdoms went against Rhaenyra in the dance and only did so because they could gain something from helping the greens
@@notyourproblem474 It is you who don't understand world. None questioned Joffrey until Ned made a big deal from it.
People fail to understand the medieval mindset. Back then bloodlines we’re very important.
Because of wealth, power and resources.
So was father's good name. Cheated man was seen as unworthy - let alone cheated man who admitted to being betrayed. I will tell you story from my country (Poland): King Vladislaus Jagiełło and his second wife Anne for years didn't have a child. After few years Anne was rumored to have affairs with knights. She ultimately became pregnant and gave birth to a daughter. Vladislaus had child by his first wife, so he was capable to have children. Yet he remained cold towards his new daughter, as he didn't believe baby is his. And even if Princess Hedwig was acknowledged as his daughter and heir, we will never know if she was indeed his offspring or child of knight. Vladislaus later had three sons by fourth wife and again rumours starred that boys aren't his. And though Queen was aquitted, again - we will never know how much was true in rumours and wheter rest of Jagiellonian dynasty are descendants of Vladislaus or some other man. Vladislaus wanted one of boy to inherited. Nobleman wanted Princess Jadwiga be heir to the throne. Then young woman suddenly passed away among rumors she was poisoned by step-mother. (Who was - again - aquitted). It is said King did not weep even once after his daughter. Maybe - because he did not believe she was his on first place... But anyway, Princess and her brothers were acknowledged as Jagiellons and history rememebers their names. They all might have been bastards - but none can prove this. Even if Vladislaus himself seemed to not love his daughter, she was still treated as Princess and heir to the throne. Boys were rumored to not be his, yet they were still tretaed as heirs and still inherited crown. Because whatever nobles thought about Queens alleged infidelity - ultimately it was father's word that mattered. He accepted children as his. None other could object but himself. That's how patriarchy works. And more so - when Vladislaus accused Anne of infidelity he was actually CRITICIZED for doing this. None could prove eheter Princess Jadwiga is child of King or not, but public accusation only made Royal Couple weak in eyes of opponents. So in medieval mindset it was better to be silent about some things and accept bastard as legitimate heir than weak public image by talking about your marital issues.
A shorter, more recent example.
"Prince" Harry is the publicly acknowledged second son of King Charles III. There have been rumours for 2 1/2 decades that Harry is the bastard son of one of Diana's many lovers. The Royal Family does not acknowledge these rumors, very wisely, especially since Harry Spencer is the illegitimate issue of his mother Diana Spencer and her brother Charles Spencer.
Red hair is a recessive trait, which means that only those who get two “redhead” versions of the gene, one from the mother and one from the father, will have red hair. There are no red haired Mountbatten-Windsors.
Would have been better if in the show Princess Rhaenys (The queen who never was) had her black/dark hair, like in the book. Seen as they were portraying the Strong boys as her biological grandchildren; if they all had the same colour hair, (black/brown or dark at least). The same colour as house strong, it would have made the truth of their parantage harder to glean; and less obvious, as everyone could say they have simply inherited their grandmothers Baratheon looks. It would have made Visarys speech to Alicent in episode 6 about the strong boys legitimacy, resemblance to house Velaryon and true parentage more impactful.
The show made it blatantly about race. I didn't like that. By making Rhaenys hair black their paternity could have still been ambiguous. And I don't understand why they cast daemons daughters so dark other than the blatant underlying racisim
Agreed. Plus, Aemma was an Arryn, which traditionally have dark hair and dark eyes.
@@briez9648True. It should also be noted that both Jaehaerys and Alysanne were half-Velaryons and thus with the race swapping should bs atleast half-black, but no.
@@briez9648 the strong boys in the book looked nothing valerians. They had brown eyes, brown hairs and pug noises. making Rhaerys hair dark wouldn't solve the issue.
@@bass9052 thank you for sharing the book I've read 3 times. We're talking about racial ambiguity.
The exact moment I stopped siding with team Black was when Daemon killed Vaemond. Imagine being the oldest biological heir and your house is getting passed down to a non-family member.
Rhaenyra could've just said Vaemond is older he can have Driftmark or protest for Rhaena or Baela to get Driftmark since Leana was older than Laenor.
Whilst I agree Luke in the show should not be heir, Vaemond is not the heir in my eyes. That would be whichever of Baela or Rhaena is older (I forget). They should have named her heir and be done with it as Laena was his older sister.
At least under English law when we had male preference primogeniture if Laenor has no kids, and is dead, then his sister inherits next, followed by her kids. Either way the great council precedence measures things from the current living ruler and has nothing to say about brothers inheriting over, only which line of descent takes precendence from the current ruler. Brothers only inherit once we are out of legit descendents.
So Vaemond was not wrong to deny Luke his claim, but he should have been championing his great niece as the legit heir.
@@neodigremo exactly, I feel like the simple answer would be for Rhaenyra to wish for Baela or Rhaena to take Driftmark. That way Rhaenys would side with her immediately, most the Velaryons would be fine since the twins grew up on Driftmark, Luke would marry Baela and their child would be a Velaryon with a legitimate claim.
The way she did it in reality was so risky and lazy because if Viserys never made it Luke would've lost the claim. This scene honestly made me question Rhaenyra's intelligence because the correct answer is so simple and easy to make.
@@MADLADCOMICS To be fair, the marriage proposal is sort of a fix to the situation as is (Luke's heir would be legit as a descendent of Corlys, whether Luke is or not, and would be the correct choice by precedence so long as Luke marries the right one of Daemon's kids). It means that everyone can sort of pretend for a generation and then the next one things are back on track.
The trouble for the blacks is Rhaenys had not accepted the deal yet, Vaemond was obviously just in it for himself and the whole thing was being used as a proxy vote for Rhaenyra as heir.
Rhaenyra's real mistake was hiding from the politics of KL for 6 years and losing a lot of the influence she had previously. She should have been alliance building as heir loooong before her father's death.
Ya know, Rhaenyra's whole situation regarding not actually caring about Tradition and Duty was amplified with this;
Birthing not just one, but three Bastards to placed in line for the Throne above the King's trueborn male heirs was incredibly stupid. Her position as heir is already a precarious one.
Even Ser Lyonel was very upset and scared about the situation, and for solid reason. Harwin is VERY lucky Viserys is a pacifist king, particularly to a fault.
Also, no, the Strong boys don't have more Valyrian blood than than their Uncles/Aunt. We can discuss that more if you guys want.
Her husband was so gay he literally couldn't get it up for her
Coming from a team black dem kids are bastards
But rhaenyra is still the rightful heir to the throne look up the widows law
Yes discuss but i do agree with you viserys is stupid but a loving man and loving men are not fit to be kings
@@badyoutuber1986You should've stop at stupid. Viserys was biased, he's neglective to his current wife and all of his children who isn't Rhaenyra.
Daeron II was a loving king and he's still a good king. So being loving isn't bad trait for leaders, nor any other good traits for regular people, letting them cloud your judgement is.
Even if Rhaenyra had become queen without issue, there would still have been a Dance of Dragons. Rhaenyra's sons were divided between the "Strong Bastards" (her sons with Harwin) and "Trueborn Targaryens" (her sons with Daemon). Sooner or later, the realm would have divided into two factions anyway. Rhaenyra was the cataclyst of the dance, not Aegon Il.
Honestly, if you read the books you’d know. Both the greens and the blacks were incredibly corrupt. But, according to Westerosi rules, the male heir has precedence. And even if Rhaenyra was Queen, her sons had no right to the throne, on account of their bastardy. They might be granted titled lands, but depriving the King’s trueborn heirs of anything and letting two boys with little Valyrian blood become heads of two Valyrian Houses is wrong. Viserys was a fool, he should have wed Rhaenyra to Daemon and be done with it, or taken Laena Velaryon to wife and solidified the reign and strength of House Targaryen. But then there would be no story.
I agree with everything you just said
Rhaenyra just be making everything so hard like if you really wanted your children’s birth to not be question you could of had children’s with anybody on dragon stone with Valyrian traits but she chose love over duty
He could have pulled a Jaehaerys and let the Great Council settle the dispute. There's no dance between Rhaenys and Viserys for a reason.
Alyn Velaryon was (begrudgingly) approved as heir and he was a bastard said to be of Leanor but like Corlys
@@ucnguyenanh9414I am actually writing a fanfic where Viserys does that. Rhaenyra wins, but the Dance will be between Jacaerys and Aegon the Younger.
Empyrean out here establishing truth to the masses yet again! 🙌🎯
It's ludicrous that a plethora of ppl refuse to see the story within the context of the storyworld. The argument that 'the Strong boys still have Targaryen blood through Rhaenyra so it doesn't matter if Laenor isn't their father' is a prime example.
Storyworld is patriarchy. Only father can acknowledge or refuted child. NONE other has a right. I personally think Ned had ZERO right try deny Joffrey and his siblings claims. They were legitimate ine yes of law, as they were acknolwedged by their father. Ned never told about this to King and he wanted disinherited them on basis hair colour. Get real! If I was reading historical book, I would think that Ned is traitor and Stannis envious uncle. Baratheon children were legitimate and so are Laenor's - because their legal fathers claim them.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518so u support Joffrey n his claim?
@@jjosifovic Yes, I do. He should be of course taken down, as he was terrible incompetent ruler, but throne should still go to Myrcella or Tommen. You can't prove they were bastards to the realm. The only person who knows for sure is Cersei and she can simply deny. In patriarchal world only father can denounce supposed child and Robert didn't do it.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518ah ok well I appreciate your consistency
@@jjosifovic Thanks.
That sums it up though I wonder: are young Aegon and Viserys really trueborn in the TV show? Laenor is alive as far as we know. One could differ that unlike the Strong boys they look like their parents and Laenor being perceived as dead helps contribute to their "legitimacy". But we who know the true picture are to perceive them as bastards or trueborn? Does it even matter?
It's kinda complicated, because Daemon and Rhaenyra had a Valyrian wedding, and Valyrians laws do accept polyamory relationships, but they don't live in Valyria. In Westeros it wouldn't be legal, not even under the Old Gods religion. So, I don't know how the show is gonna fix that, because I also remember that in the books someone does claim Laenor's Dragon.
@@notyourproblem474even if the Westerosi religions doesn’t accept polyamory, they can recognise a Valyrian marriage as valid because it’s not a marriage within their own faith. Like in our world, two Hindus getting married in a Hindu ceremony is considered a valid marriage even if it happens in a Christian country like the uk
I think they'd be considered legitimate as long as no one found out Rhaenyra KNEW he was alive. Like, there was a body. I think the Faith would forgive Rhaenyra for assuming Laenor was dead and remarrying and would consider the marriage legitimate (assuming they never find out Rhaenyra knew the whole time.)
It's doesn't matter. Because in the end of the war, Aegon the Younger and his brother were the only male Targaryens. There's a reason Aegon II didn't off his nephew once he killed Rhaenyra.
@@reddest-xRhaenyra finally learned how to be discreet
This is truly one of the most interesting videos you've done. Please Never stop.
Finally someone that actually understands the world of ASOIAF ,anytime i try to have this kind of conversation with team black members they just call us r4pist defenders. Any kind of discussion is completely impossible...media literacy is truly dead in some parts of the internet for the fandom.
THISS
As someone who finds house Blackfyre and Bittersteel incredibly cool I wonder what the audience response to them would be.
It would probably depend on the amount of girlbossing present, or they might simp for Daemon. Or they might just not like them because they aren't the Targaryens.
Me too or does the bastard hating just count to Rhaenyra’s sons. It’s also funny how no one had this kind of attitude about bastards toward Gendry or Robert’s other bastards who were killed. Which are more comparable to Rhaenyra’s sons than Cersei’s kids
Houses shouldn't be a reason for disliking someone. We loved many characters in this universe who aren't Targaryens.
If Grendry can't be King before Stannis, Rhaenyra's children can't be Lord of Tide before Vaemond.
@@tytybaby06 It's not bastard hating. It's that bastards can't inherit before legitimate children.
Calling it a “rumor” when critiquing the tv show is disingenuous.
Her husband is half Black with white hair.
They refuse to believe their eyes
Daemon would never let his own sons pass over by the Strong boys. Im pretty sure if he gets his way he would marry Rhaena and Baela to Aegon and Viserys. And the Strong boys would each get into unfortunate accidents to get them out of the way.
The best thing Rhaenyra could have done was to out Laenor as gay and say that it was not her but him. Maybe at their wedding night she could even let the High Septon be a witness during their bedding ceremony (something that did happen in medival Europe). Than Laenor would get all the blame because he could not perform, she would be free to marry. The Vaelerions would have to take the blame on them since it was their son who was to gay to perform. Harwin might be a downgrade but their marriage would still be legal than. And the strong boys would be true born princes.
Also i dont think it is fair to compare Cersei to Rhaenyra. Cersei's childeren had no claim to the throne because they were not related to the king. Rhaenyra's bastard were her biological sons and Viserys biological grandsons. They were the blood of the dragon. That is way they all could ride dragons.
I'm sorry but Cersi is the perfect comparison. She's trying to have one of her sons take over the Baratheon line with no Baratheon blood. That's exactly what Rhae is doing to the Vels.
@@higharchbishopofteatasting6217 Maybe for Driftmark, but not for the Iron Throne. Those boys are Targaryens just as much Alicient kids are biologically speaking.
@@jsdfsad7143 She's still attempting to pass bastards as true-borns. So yes, she's Cersi, it doesn't matter if they have targ blood, they are illegitimate children who should've been taken out the line of succession.
@@jsdfsad7143 Also, no, her children with Daemon are actually more Valyrian than Alicents, but the strong boys are not. They are only 25% Targ. Alicents children are 50%. This is because Rhaes mom was Arryn. Whereas, Alicents children are half Targ, because Viserys was a full blooded Targ, but Rhae is only half Valyrian.
@@jsdfsad7143 They shouldn't be in line for the Iron Throne as well. They are bastards.
“Whose Andal baby is that?”
I think, largely, the point of the conflict is that their bastardy does not matter in a concrete sense. What ultimately matters is the actions, not the motivations, of those who vouch for the boys. The end result is that history remembers Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey as Velaryons and not Waters, Strongs, or Targaryens. The claim of bastardy is remembered in the histories, but only as a rumor, because it could never be verified. And even if it could, before the war Rhaenyra was the named heir to the Targaryen legacy, she had too much prestige (while Viserys lived) for anyone to realistically challenge her branch of the family without being executed (see Vaemond). The story highlights that the truth of their bastardy only matters if someone with the will and means (in other words the most power) to take hold of the dynasty (or usurp Rhaenyra) makes it so. The “truth”, in the histories and therefore minds of people then and thereon, is whatever a sufficiently powerful source declares that it is. We can see this in Daemon’s response to Viserys (speaking about Targaryen exceptionalism) when he tells his brother that he should be allowed to marry Rhaenyra because “Aegon the Conqueror took a second wife”. Even though Viserys rebukes him, Aegon’s second marriage and incest (despite the protests, or disapproval, of the clergy and common-folk) prove that sufficiently powerful people can (and have) transgressed the laws and beliefs of the wider population. And, as seen in trial-by-combat, the people of Westeros often see the victor as vindicated and affirmed in their words by the gods. Rhaenyra is using this, “Targaryen exceptionalism”, even inadvertently-and it works until Viserys’ death and beyond for some time. In fact, the boys’ bastardy is not the element that the Greens say disqualify Rhaenyra from sitting the throne, it’s her gender and the boys’ questionable heritage only adds to the discord. If Rhaenyra was born a man (and somehow managed to hide the fact that a female Laenor was not pregnant), likely, “he” would inherit and Jacaerys after “him” as Aegon (or really the Greens) would only have the boys’ bastardy to use against a male-Rhaenyra. The bastardy being a weak and unverifiable claim, that a cadet member of the dynasty (like Aegon) would struggle to use successfully against his empowered half-sibling. Unless, of course, as stated in the video: the bastard of a man is easier to identify than one born of a woman.
In the books, their parentage was much more ambiguous due to Princess Rhaenys hair color. Even now the boys being potential bastereds, half the relm still decided to support rhaenyra's claim to the iron throne and in relation their support to jace has her heir.
Not really. It was described with good details. If you are smart enough to notice it.😂
I mean, kinda? They make it pretty clear in the books Harwin is the father, they describe the kids as “pug-nosed” and directly state they all look similar to Harwin. Still handled it better than the show tho, it’s like come on ffs, it’s so obvious Laenor isn’t the father it’s insulting. Why they race-swapped the Velaryons I have no idea, literally the worst house to race-swap.
Also, the Velaryons were white in the book, it's kinda why I hate the race swap since it would have been harder to accuse Rhaenyra of having bastards if only the hair color and noses were different
nope it wasn't. they looked nothing like valerians.
@@MT-iw6slit being obvious was kind of the point they were trying to get across.
They are bastards, it's an open secret. But it's treason to mention that they are bastards. And no ones gonna challenge their true heraldry when your gonna go up against the king. No sensible Lord who wants to maintain the status quo unless they had nothing to lose. Like Corlas's brother.
It’s not an open secret. Fire & Blood clearly states that members of court whispered about Jace and Luke when they were born. To put an end to the rumours, Viserys gave them (and later Joffrey) cradle eggs. It’s said that people widely believed that eggs hatching/not hatching was an indicator of legitimacy and divine choice. The book stated that once the boys got dragons, everyone except for the minority of extreme green supporters stopped talking about it and nearly everyone at court accepted Rhaenyra’s sons as legitimate. The only people who continued pushing the issue were Alicent and her boys who felt that their “birthrights” were stolen by Rhaenyra and her sons.
I just love reasonable people ♥
Questions: 1. Can the boys really be called Waters if Harwin never claimed them, unlike Laenor?
Edric Storm was recognised and Gendry wasn't, so he shouldn't be Gendry Waters.
2. If Jeyne Arryn can name very distant cousin her heir over her first cousin, can't Corlys name Luke as his heir if that's his will even if there are other claimants? Tywin also didn't want to name Tyrion as his successor. Does Tywin's will matters in this case?
Jaehaerys also chose Baelon as his heir over Rhaenys. Can people choose their heirs at all or not? If not, then why they keep doing it?
Okay let's go.
1) Yes, because they are noble Bastards of Rhaenyra...and she sort of can't claim they are not hers. Provided one parent is of noble blood and aknowledges you. Then you get the surename. You should check Oberyn's case, many of his daughters are from common folk.
2)The kid Jeyne wants to name is an Arryn. And there was a serious conflict over that. But in Corlys case, he has legitimate Granddaughters and siblings. Luke's case is so weak that is none existent. And in Tywin's case? Until Tyrion was convicted? No,, his desires really did not matter. Once he was dead, Casterly Rock beloongs to Tyrion.
It is sad that there isn't enough context about the Lore of ASOIAF when people view the show. So people erroneously project their morality, modern XXI century morality of a wealthy/developed nation, into Westeros.
Westeros is not only medieval but extremely religious and monarchical with very strict hierarchies, there is literally NO social mobility those born as peasants would die as peasants (This is why Bronn becoming Lord of Highgarden is something that would NEVER happen in the books). The book even goes to show how entire rebellions would sprout from religious zealots that saw the Targaryen as incestious abominations and it took a literal tyrant, Maegor the Cruel, to get rid of most of them (Poor fellows and Warrior sons) and still King Jaehaerys had to tiptoe around them to avoid another war. Add to that how the crown literally skipped the female line, passing directly to Aegon the Uncrown and later Jaehaerys, skipping entirely over Rhaena who was the legitimate first born of King Aenys I and setting the precedent that no female would inherit before a male heir.
Without this context, people see what Rhaenyra did as a mild offense when in truth it was high treason punishable with death, an insult to the seven gods and a threat to the inheritance system. Add to that noble houses that still wanted the Targaryens gone like Dorne or religious figures (Septons) that would find any opportunity to denounce them and you can see how Rhaenyra was in trouble.
Daemon, truth to his nature, thinks dragons will keep them in power but he is forgetting what happened the moment Aegon the Conqueror died, how rebellions would sprout (Even with the threat of dying horribly by dragon fire), Aenys I, Maegor, Jaehaerys ALL of them had rebellions despite being dragonriders because when you burn someone's family and home all they have left is revenge.
Listen, I had a black mare once-
😂
Did you witness the act yourself?
Rewatching HOtD for the second time and my views have changed. I’ve come to this same agreement, the greens are valid in there anger, but everyone has to wait until Rhaenyra is done anyway 🤷🏽♀️ since King V said his daughter was his heir.
Her entire claim was based on whether or not she had legitimate kids... she didnt. SHE isnt even legitimate, why would her bastards? Everybody is getting caught up in real stupid arguments for nothing.
on the topic of % of valyrian blood, someone on tumblr did the math going back to the beginning of the targ tree to dany/jon snow, and the stong boys only had like 14% of valyrian blood
Alternate scenario. Considering the dance doesn't happen and the Targaryens dont bother contesting the bastards claim.
what are the odds daemon does nothing about the strong bastards being king while his Targaryen sons get jack shit ?
Not great.
To the Iron Thrones: As valid as the Blackfyres'.
To Driftmark: As strong as Cercei's children.
To Harrenhal: Not even.
Damn imma quote this
In the show there is really no question they are bastards. In the book I’m not so sure they’re definitely bastards. Rhaenys has black hair in the books making it much more possible for them to have black hair. Genetics are complicated.
The difference with Robert is Robert didn’t know laenor knew and he still says they’re his sons
Also it’s not laenors claim is rhaenryras so it don’t matter she gave birth to them
@@dameliofamliy3322a King cannot make his bastard children heirs over legitimately born members of the royal family. Therefore by the same logic, a Queen cannot do it either. It doesn't matter if she gave birth to them or not, once they are born illegitimate, even if they were later legitimised by decree, the law still places them behind the Viserys trueborn sons in the succession line, however by placing them ahead in the succession line, Rhaenyra had violated the normal rules of succession.
Couple things:
1. It's not just about having the blood. The upper class intermarries so virtually everyone has the blood. It's about who among the blooded has the best claim. A bastard by definition cannot inherit from their parents.
2. It's actually pretty easy to prove whether they were illegitimate or not. Just ask, where in the Strong boys' official family tree could their brown hair, brown eyes, and pug noses come from? Officially, none of their ancestors on either side had these traits. Also, they aren't black. When Targaryens looked different it was always because one of their parents were not Valyrian (Dornish, first men etc.), not their grandparents or anyone else further back. One of their parents. People of the setting wouldn't need DNA to know this pattern.
Also, medieval royals lived very public lives and were constantly attended to. When royals slept together, when children were conceived, length of terms (for the health of heirs), and when heirs were born were all tracked by physicians and even sometimes witnessed by the court. Everything had to line up. If a royal had a mistress everyone knew. If a royal was gay, everyone knew. There are so many factors that would've been used to prove illegitimacy at the time. What people need to realize is that all of these factors line up AGAINST the Strong boys. Everything lines up with their father being the person they are spitting images of: Harwin Strong. He's their mother's sworn shield and one of the few people with the privacy and opportunity with the Rhaenyra.
The king and his family are supposed to be gods chosen and heirs by hereditary right. Yes, while there are definitely things a king could do that would be grounds for deposition, this hereditary inheritance is general how acquisition of the throne works. Ensuring the legitimate line stays on the throne is a matter of honor and duty. Rhaenyra passing off her bastards as legitimate destroys the integrity of the royal house and it kinda is up to everyone else to restore it. This is how the prospect of a bastard inheriting the throne would've been received to the people of that setting.
You are completely incorrect about medieval royalty. Yes, they were lived public life, but if happens that Queen had an affair, Kings still was expected to name child as heir - in other case he would be showing hiws onw weeknes. There were multiple instances were legitimacy of Royal figures were questioned, yet they always were recognized and inherited their goods. Edward IV of York, for example. I also gave you example from my own country Poland from 15th cnetury: King Vladislaus Jagiełło and his second wife Anne for years didn't have a child. After few years Anne was rumored to have affairs with knights. She ultimately became pregnant and gave birth to a daughter. Vladislaus had child by his first wife, so he was capable to have children. Yet he remained cold towards his new daughter, as he didn't believe baby is his. And even if Princess Jadwiga was acknowledged as his daughter and heir, we will never know if she was indeed his offspring or child of knight. Vladislaus later had three sons by fourth wife Sofia and again rumours starred that boys aren't his. And though Sofia was aquitted, again - we will never know how much was true in rumours and wheter rest of Jagiellonina dynasty are descendants of Vladislaus or some other man. Vladislaus wanted one of boy to inherited. Nobleman wanted Princess Jadwiga be heir to the throne. Then girl suddenly passed away among rumors she was poisoned by step-mother. (Who was - again - aquitted). It is said King did not weep even once after his daughter. Maybe - because he did not believe she was his on first place... But anyway, Princess and her brothers were acknowledged as Jagiellons and history rememebers their names. They all might have been bastards - but none can prove this. Even if Vladislaus himself seemed to not love his daughter, she was still treated as Princess and heir to the throne. Boys were rumored to not be his, yet they were still tretaed as heirs and still inherited crown - two of three sons became Kings. NONE tried take them down. Because whatever nobles thought about Queens alleged infidelity - ultimately it was father's word that mattered. He accepted children as his. None other could object but himself. That's how patriarchy works. I would tell you even more: when Vladislaus accused knights about affair with Anne, Polish nobleman CRITICIZED him. It wasn't matter if Anne was faithful or not - it was important to insist to public she was and King broke decorum for things he could neither prove nor disprove. He only embarassed himself as isnecure husband and daughter of his wife still was his heiress presumptive until she passed, making room for her half-brothers (who were also questioned but became kings neverthless!).
DNA? The only DNA they need is the ability to ride dragons. Guess I win!
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 I actually responded with cases like Edward IV in mind and why most experts and the academic literature in general debunked the idea that he was likely illegitimate. The evidence they used would've been available at the time and one of the reasons why it wasn't really taken seriously. The other was that he was already the anointed king.
As for Wladyslaw II's children, Poland had an elected monarchy so hereditary was not even the main factor, the noble's choice was. Also, Jadwiga I of Poland was the real inheritor of Poland and Wladyslaw II/Jogaila (The first Jagiellon) was only king by marriage, a consort. Unlike his daughter Hedwig by his second wife Queen Anna, he and his sons didn't have Polish royal blood. Given the concerns of their legitimacy (Which again mainly come from the fact that they didn't have blood ties to the previous polish dynasty (Piast)), the nobles definitely had a lot more leverage which they used to ensure that those boys (future Wladyslaw III and Casimir IV), they would be given extra privileges and freedoms. Just like ind Edward IV's case these efforts also mainly happened for political reasons to undermine the consort's family. That was an anti Woodville push. This was an anti-Jagiellonian push that saw them try to place Frederick of Brandenburg and Princess Hedwig, and again, mainly because Queen Sophia (the mother of her brothers and her father's first wife) was not descended from the Piasts. Princess Hedwig was a Piast heir through Queen Anna and her brothers were not. Concessions from Wladyslaw had to be made for the nobles to allow those boys to be king, and only because they were very short on options too.
As for why he was cold to his daughter, it was probably because he wanted a son to carry on his new dynasty. It's really a tale as old as time.
@@user-ti5cw1ug6l Listen, you completely missed the point. My point was - I never claimed that any of them was illegitimate. In fact Edward most likely was legitimate, and so Vladislaus's children by Sophia. (I do not believe Jadwiga was his daughter, but it's my opinion.). It is not about who was true bastrad. It is about in what people believed or not. Yes, Edward IV was likely true born - it doesn't change the fact that many people in his times believed he wasn't. But no ecould prove that and this was what mattares. Same in case with Vladislaus Jogaila's children - wheter they were effect of infidelity or not, people were whisphered. But it was mattered not - none could prove this. Both Edward's case and Vladislaus's case have one thing in common - children weer claimed by fathers and considered legitimate despite doubts environment around had.
Great video!
The one thing I'd say is that they don't have less of a claim than Rhaenyra's sons with Daemon, cause they are also bastards. Laenor is still alive, and polygamy is illegal and illegitimate in Westeros. Therefore her marriage to Daemon would be null and void and their children would be bastards on a technicality. (I started writing this before the last 10 seconds of the video 😅)
Also I get setting viserys' generation as 'pure targaryen' (I do it when arguing this point too) cause it gets fuzzy after that, but its funny that in truth not even he is fully targaryen.
Im team green all the way not because i dont like Rhaenyra (i dont)😅but because of her 3 obviously bastard children after they are out of the way i have no problem with Aegon III succeeding to the throne, until then Aegon II is king.
Cool video.
I heard of another debate that I have mixed feelings on :
Considering the show confirms that Laenor was alive when Rhaenyra married Daemon, does this mean that we should consider their marriage still in full effects and thus Aegon and Viserys should also be in the same position as their half-brothers in the audience's eyes ?
This might actually be an even more complex situation than I realized.
I want to say no, since this could actually screw the entire dinasty from this point forward, but at the same time I can't deny that there is some merit to this argument.
I genuinely can't give a decisive answer on this topic. If you want, let me know what you all have to say about it.
Depends on perspective. In current world if person goes missing and partner remarried, old marriage is dissolved, even if first spouse came back. We on't know how it works in Westeros. But even if marriage Rhaneyra to Daemon would be declared null and void, it still wouldn't mena children are bastards. There were instances in real history where marriage was anulled, but children were considered legitimate, as they were conceived in "good will". For example Baldwin IV of Jerusalem (Leper King) and his full sister Queen Sibylla - their parents anulled their marriage, but both children remained legitimate and inherited throne. Of course WE know that Rhaneyra was aware Laenor is alive and knowingly decided on bigamy. But none can prove that to her - just as none can prove that Laenor's children aren't his. Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffery are legitimate in eyes of law, as none can prove they aren't. If Laenor came back, Aegon & Viserys situatio would depend wheter result of void marriage would be considered as legitimate or not.(Of course Rhaenyra might also try poliandric marriages, as Aegon and Maegor tried poligyny.)
I think because Rhaenyra married Daemon in a Valyrian ceremony, it would count as valid because Valyrian marriages include polyamory. It’s just as valid as Aegon’s marriage to Rhaenys was. Since House Targaryen are descendants of Aegon and Rhaenys, to say Rhaenyra’s marriage isn’t valid is to claim the entirety of House Targaryen are a bastard branch of the family. I can’t imagine it going so well for the person who makes that claim
Well, Velaryons are white with silver hair and purple eyes while princess Rhaenys has black hair from her Baratheon mother For A REASON! So that it's just speculation there but not a bloody fact that these kids are not Velaryons.
I think you mount a somewhat “strong” case but there’s many flaws and I’m kinda hoping this drop is just click bait? But anyway, assuming it’s legit, regardless of what is rumoured in a book the show is now cannon… don’t bring up what blood % is based on a very weak narrative of the history with clear biases. Rhaenyra’s sons bonded to dragons did they not? Maybe revisit how strong their Valeryian blood is?… Viserys I declared Lucerys his true born grandson and heir to Driftmark in the throne room. I think when the Targaryen’s came to power they cared little for the traditions and “beliefs” of Westeros including marriage… how can one man marry his sisters???🫢 The Kings word is law at the end of the day
If the king's word is law at the end of the day, following that logic, Joffrey was the rightful king, then, and Ned got what he deserved.
@@zaja2418 yep you got it in one 👏
Oh no someone didn’t read the books. 1. Dragon taming likely has little to do with dragon blood. 2. No kings word is not law that’s why the Dance of Dragon exist (and Blackfyre rebellion after). The… KING (as you ironically suggest) can’t control his own succession, no more than he can control Westerosi culture or his small lords succession. Now can they say what ever they like… yes but there only so much they can do to where the people rise up and rebel.
It seems that her children might not have the STRONGEST of claims😏
Tbh Rhaenyra could of slept with one of Laenor's relatives some of them have white hair and at least they will be biracial. If she cares so much about her family image she should of chose her mate right.
As a staunch monarchy hater, nobody has a valid claim for the kingdom belong to the people. Dont care who your daddy is or who his daddy was 🗿
But to humor the whole monarchy thing, the legitimate heir is the one thats accepted. The king is the one everyone agrees to allow to sit on the throne. That is all a monarch is: a statesman people ALLOW to sit on a throne, their claim resting on their lineage, which people ALLOW to stand, considering your lineage has no true meaning to anything tangible
If tb says claiming drifmark is coming from alyssa velaryon then green kids will have front line of claiming drifmark lmao.
Look at us arguing about bloodlines like medieval peasants😂😂
I’m on the side of Rhaenyra and her sons because I don’t like greens but still they are bastards if we take what’s on the show as valid. 🤷🏽♀️ and btw I think 7 kingdoms would be in much better place if they would crown rhaenys (queen who never was) instead of Viserys.
My head canon is that the boys were children of one of Leanor's lovers. Hence the children may have been treated as his by himself and his family
So I'm coming to this five months after this was posted, but I'd point out that Laenor acknowledged the three boys as his own, and even loved them as sons. Much like in 'our' history, a child born during marriage even if a bastard but the father says, yes, that's my kid, then yes the 'Strong' boys were still in the line of succession to the throne and the seat of Driftmark.
Of course, this is based on the show; in the book, it's not AS obvious since not only are the Velaryons not black but Rhaenys had Baratheon black hair which could have been passed on to Rhaenyra's oldest three sons.
Already said this before. That just makes Laenor guilty of treason. It doesn't make the boys legitimate.
You want to know what is super interesting about any discussion of HotD or Fire & Blood? The soucres sited are incredibly biased. The book towards the Greens and the show towards the Blacks.
Spoilers for season one of HotD and a minor spoiler from F&B
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Fire & Blood uses several 2nd and 3rd hand accounts to record historical "facts" but what it includes and chooses to focus on also reflects the author's (Archmaester Gyldayn) priorities/biases/agendas and expectations (both known and unknown). There are comparsions to Rhaenyra and Alicent in looks and temperament to highlight how unfit Rhaenrya is. It is presented that because Rhaenyra would be a terrible ruler that Aegon had no choice but to become King. For the good of the realm.
Mind you, this is being written by a character who already knows who "wins" the Dance of the Dragons so it is understandable were the historical slant towards the Greens stems from for the book.
Whereas HotD shows Rhaenyra being an entitled child who had tragedy after tragedy. She lost her mother (and father in a way) and then her best friend when she married her father, and then her first lover turned against her and then her 2nd lover died, etc, etc only to have her crown, her birthright taken from her and then her son! All by urspurers who conspired against her for power and position and not the good of the realm.
So who could blame her for fighting back? Didn't Alicent all but ensure this was the only path forward? Did it appear as though Alicent resented Rhaenyra for not being as repressed or restrained by the same rules she was? For lying to Alicent about her chastity? That Rhaenyra deserves to be punished in Alicent's eyes?
I am well aware that every main character (except Heleana) are pretty terrible and yet layered, dare I say relatable? And that my examples are broad, and really, that is my point.
That is what makes these videos and comment sections so fun. For the most part, we are working with filtered, biased scenes and then because we like or dislike the outcome of those scenes we are compelled to reason out which side is correct.
In F&B, the question of the boys legitimacy is just another rumor weighted against Rhaenyra's fitness to rule.
In HotD, we see that bespite being actually illegitimate they are seen as being the better heirs. Jace respecting his heritage and learning to be a ruler vs Aegon being the rottenest of trash people with no respect for anyone.
Anyway, this was just my way of saying I love storytelling and fandom and thank you for participating in it with these videos essays and comment sections.
They are the queen's sons. She is the heir to the Iron Throne and they are HER trueborn sons and the grandsons of the current King. The identity of their father shouldn't even play into it.
Now the Driftwood throne is a different story! They actually have no bloodrights to Driftmark because they are not actually Velaryons. Of course, if Corlys still wants to pass it on to them, that's his right, but to be honest...it should've gone to Vaemond. It really isn't right that it would pass out of the Velaryon line. Of course, I didn't like Vaemond because of the way he behaved toward Luc & Jace, but he wasn't wrong about who should actually be Lord of the Tides.
Vaemond behaved poorly and lost his head for it...but Daemon let him keep his tongue. LOL
I will say that Rhaenyra does not have legitimate children, because Laenor is still alive, it could be debated that Aegon and Viserys are both bastards as well, as polygamy is not allowed in Westeros not even by the Doctrine of Excepcionalism...
Just remember this is fantasy you can take the story you want
My friend i like this video
A "What if the Strong boys were legitamized"- video would be awesome
The comparison to Joffrey doesn’t hold much water. Those children are still Targaryen and grandsons of the king, regardless of who their father might be. Laenor knew those kids weren’t his, Robert never did. Joff had zero Baratheon blood.
That just makes Laenor guilty of treason. It doesn't make the boys legitimate.
The legitimacy of the boys (and I think the story is much stronger if it is ambiguous if they are illegitimate) only matters for the Vaelaryon inheritance. For the Iron Throne itself it is basically a non-issue from a legal perspective. As Queen Rhaenyra could legitimise them as her children in law regardless of anything else. Aegon the unworthy doing just that is what caused the Blackfyres as legitimising his bastards gave them legit legal claim.
So for the Iron Throne itself, once Queen Rhaenyra becomes the start point for later claims, and her declaring he eldest son as her legitimate heir settles the matter legally. Had Ned been Jon Snow's dad, and Jon been legitimised, he would indeed have been the legal heir to Winterfell. Even though Roose Bolton has a son with his Frey wife, Ramsey is the legal heir once legitimised as he is older.
However if Luke is indeed a Bastard (and I think in the book version is is very much ambiguous), he has no claim to Driftmark, no right to claim it and nothing Rhaenyra can do to give it to him by inheritance. Granted Baela (I think) would have the claim then as the oldest grandchild of Corlys, so any children she had with Luke post marriage would be as legit as they come. And unlike the throne a ruling lady of a great house is not unknown if they are the oldest child. So Luke as consort to Baela as ruling lady of Driftmark works perfectly well as a legal standard and her kids would be indisputably Vaelaryons.
The major complication for Bastards in the GOT universe is that pretty much every time we hear about the legitimacy of claims it is because the legal inheritance comes from the dad and not the mother. In the case of Rhaenrya depending on the son and the throne the claim is either de-facto legit (and able to be made De-Jure once she is Queen) or completely not legit. The situations are not analagous. However the marriage to Daemons Daughters, who should legally be the heirs to Driftmark, allows for a neat legal workaround that fixes itself within a generation.
But the real issue for the show itself was never about the boys. It was about whether or not the King's stated heir (Rhaenyra) should inherit over her younger brother. And frankly you could argue either way from the precedents in Westeros. The real shame was in them trying to force a crown on the head of an unsuitable kid who didn't want it because of paranoia, ambition and fear instead of the woman who DID want it out of duty.
Is Jacaerys a Strong or a Cole tho?
😂so random but so good of you to inquire
I think strong
Westeros is patriarchy. Only father can acknowledge or refuted child. NONE other has a right. I personally think Ned had ZERO to try deny Joffrey and his siblings claims. They were legitimate ine yes of law, as they were acknolwedged by their father. Ned never told about this to King and he wanted disinherited them on basis hair colour. Get real! If I was reading historical book, I would think that Ned is traitor and Stannis envious uncle. Baratheon children were legitimate and so are Laenor's - because their legal fathers claim them.
It doesn't work like that. Strong boys' parentage was questioned multiple times, at least once this matter was raised at court.
If only Laenor's word was needed, then this argument would have been used by Rhaenyra. But everyone, including Rhaenyra or lord Strong, knew the situation was way more serious. That's why lord Strong wanted to leave the post with Harwin even though Laenor was still alive.
And lords or monarchs were regularly accused in bastardy,no matter how patriarchal their society was.
@@yasmina3999 It works exactly like that. I will tell you story from my country: King Vladislaus Jagiełło and his second wife Anne for years didn't have a child. After few years Anne was rumored to have affairs with knights. She ultimately became pregnant and gave birth to a daughter. Vladislaus had child by his first wife, so he was capable to have children. Yet he remained cold towards his new daughter, as he didn't believe baby is his. And even if Princess Hedwig was acknowledged as his daughter and heir, we will never know if she was indeed his offspring or child of knight. Vladislaus later had three sons by fourth wife and again rumours starred that boys aren't his. And though Queen was aquitted, again - we will never know how much was true in rumours and wheter rest of Jagiellonina dynasty are descendants of Vladislaus or some other man. Vladislaus wanted one of boy to inherited. Nobleman wanted Princess Jadwiga be heir to the throne. Then girl suddenly passed away among rumors she was poisoned by step-mother. (Who was - again - aquitted). It is said King did not weep even once after his daughter. Maybe - because he did not believe she was his on first place... But anyway, Princess and her brothers were acknowledged as Jagiellons and history rememebers their names. They all might have been bastards - but none can prove this. Even if Vladislaus himself seemed to not love his daughter, she was still treated as Princess and heir to the throne. Boys were rumored to not be his, yet they were still tretaed as heirs and still inherited crown. Because whatever nobles thought about Queens alleged infidelity - ultimately it was father's word that mattered. He accepted children as his. None other could object but himself. That's how patriarchy works.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 I've already explained you in my other comment- this case when such an obvious bastard was ignored is rather an exception that could happen only because of the power and influence the family had. There were other cases when monarchs lost their power and the main legal/ political reasoning for it was their parentage.
@@yasmina3999 No, you didn't. You claimed things but didn't give me a SINGLE example. "Exeption could happen only because of the power and influence family had". Absolutely not. It was father's word. If family was poor it was still father who claimed or denounce the child.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 it doesnt work like that at all... 😂😂
Well, in a technical sense; in the western world; a legitimate child is one born to two parents who are married within wedlock. As long as Leonor and Rhaennarya are both married and Leonor does not deny the kids are his own; - the kids would be considered legitimate. Fortunately, there isn’t a paternity test so it’s just slander unless Leonor would deny the Strong boys lol.
the fact that the people in charge dont want to breath live in the rumors , kindof make them, legitimate the powers that matter rather act as of if they are legitimate until the power shifts.
No.
Because Targaryen exceptionalism
To be honest in the book I never thought they were bastards mostly because. Of the fact of Rhaenys, she has black hair and we have Adam of the hull, the future Dragonrider of Seasmoke. But if they go for that in show is more than fine. Also, bastards are, not evil, is only because of the Faith they have been made out to be. Trueborn are just as bad, at oath-breaking or backstabbing. Be born out of wedlock doesn't make someone bad.
Is someone's heart that makes a person.
But it's true the children of Harwin and Rhaenyra don't have a claim, only after everyone is dead or legitimized. Aegon the Younger is the true heir. Funny he becomes the king after the war.
In the books it’s not stated that they were bastards they changed that with the show making them bastards
@@taleahroberson7801 True but how is written is heavily implied.Or just the measters writing it that way.
@@kjellduteweert9262 in the books they describe her child with brown hair and pug noses like her bodyguard but it’s 3 maester telling the story and thought the book you get several hints telling us that 2 of the maestors are green supporters in fire and blood
Not all targs had silver hair and purple eyes and in the books rhaenys and her mother had black hairs as the Baratheon genes are stronger as rhaenyra is also half arryn but they changed that in the show by making rhaenys sliver haired
@@taleahroberson7801 So you think they are bastards or no in the books? I don't.
BUT Rhaenyra bethrothing her Strong sons to Daemon's daughters was actually a smart move since Daemon's daughters are also the granddaughters of Corlys and Rhaenys.
The show is different from the books on a few fronts. Its not so clear that the boys are bastards in the literature. Aemma Arryn had black hair, as did Rhaenys Targaryen so its not unreasonable that Rhaenyra's children with Laenor would have dark hair.
Also as the royal lineage is passing through Rhaenyra it shouldn't matter who the father is, as Laenor isn't contesting anything.
I dispute the whole Valyrian blood percentage making the Greens have a better claim. Its proximity to the crown that makes your claim valid, not racial purity. Targs just muddy those waters with inbreeding. But when Rhaegar had a Dornish wife nobody said 'oh i dunno, Viserys could marry Dany and those kids have a better claim' because Rhaegar's son is the closest to the previous monarch.
I know it's a make believe magical series but I can't help but compare it to reality. Irl men (Kings) come first because princesses and queens have to make more princes and princesses. And we know how high of a chance it is to not live through that 😐 so queens come second do to having the more important job and back in that day it was pretty necessary because duh kingdoms are definitely safer for the common ppl for many reasons. Rhaenyra already had a pack of male children tho. So the author chose to put women under men yet again. Yes it's a magical story why bring logic into it? I think it makes for a better story because it shows that nothing was made easy for her even though she's a woman. Unlike Alicent who just got moved around like a chest piece. She doesn't hate Rhaenyra because she is wrong or breaking the rules, it's because she doesn't let her womanhood define her unlike Alicent. And honestly even if the greens were right who cares? 😂 Alicent's children shouldn't be alive to feed people's mothers to dragons in front of their children if the king had wedded who he was supposed to... and Alicent's father wove it all into place so technically speaking the greens are usurpers.
I think the difference between Joffrey and the strong boys is that Robert didn’t know that Joffrey was a bastard but Laenor knows and is part of the lie which to me makes the boys his real kids. It’s like a stepdad who raises a kid and the kid grows up and says you were my dad even though he wasn’t the biological father
This is the problem with hotd viewers😂 just because we live in a modern world where this is a plausible explanation it doesn’t negate the fact that IN THE ASOIAF universe (a mostly medieval society ) no amount of laenor claiming those boys as his own will change the fact that they ARE BASTARDS. And have no true claim to the throne just like Joffrey
@@youngveteran6368 They are LEGALLY legitimate. Omagine reverse situation - that father has biological child and denounce it becaus ehe doesn't believe baby is his. No amount of mother's tears would chnage situation - becaus e father rejected child, child would be treated like bastard. This world is patriarchy and care for what father says, not about actual biology.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 again your using a modern outlook, it’s an open secret laenor is gay plus just because HES SAYING their his doesn’t mean they are legitimate, they might “LEGALLY BE HIS CHILDREN” but that doesn’t mean they have a legitimate claim TO THE THRONE
@@youngveteran6368 Yes, they have. I don't use "modern outlook" - I use patriarchal world outlook. If in patriarchy man said child is his, then child is legitimate. If he renpunced the child, child is illegitimate and not consider his. There were cases when ruler renounced child - and child was from this moment treated like bastard, even if it was impossible to preve without genetic tests. Why? Because FATHER word is law in that case. There was example of Duke Siemowit III from Poland - he declared son (Henry) is his wife's bastard and fro 10 years boy was treated as bastard. Duke reversed his decision only after boys grew to look like him. But imagine if father did not change his decision - boy would be treated like illegitimate, even if he was actual son of Duke. But none could prove he is or he is not - it is father who decides. Siemowit decidedd he does not acknowledged infant and let child grew without any Royal rights. Laenor decided otherwise.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 ok bro I saw you got schooled under another comment that basically explained the same thing I just said but you fail to comprehend. In order for those boys to be legitimate laenor must first acknowledge them as illegitimate then acknowledge them as his and have the KING LEGITIMIZE them and unless he does that he’s straight up lying to everyone’s face. You can feel how you want BUT THESE ARE THE RULES go read the ASOIAF books to see they are bastards for the simple fact that the man claiming to be there daddy isn’t actually. Have a good day now
Otto said to Rhaenyra , “The succession changed the moment your father sired a son” So it didn’t even matter if she had trueborn sons by Laenor the greens were ALWAYS gonna crown Aegon since he was born. & you can’t compared them to joffery “Baratheon” because he had no royal blood! Rhaenyra is the royal blood & they are all dragon riders who’s eggs all hatched unlike Alicent’s. Ned was right because Cersei’s kids had no royal blood! The strong boys are more compared to Robert’s bastards like Gendry & those who were killed cause they were the royal blood! Laenor’s line is irrelevant to the succession. & if he & his father the head of the house doesn’t mind no one else should. Robert didn’t know Cersei’s kids weren’t kids Laenor knew & accepted them.
Edit: So they more like unofficially adopted by Laenor his legal sons. & them being bethroed to Rhaena & Baela strengthens their claim with their Targ/Velaryon blood
Except she also wants her second son to inherent driftmark despite having little Valareon blood, so rhaenyra isn't that much better fhan cersei on that front. A head of the house being OK with something doesn't make it legal nor right.
Regardless they still have Targaryen blood thru there mother so it doesn’t matter who their father was
Actually it does matter because Westeros is a patriarchal society and house membership is determined by the paternal lines not maternal .
Is this me defending that practice? Not really but my point is, we have understand a society by the rules and norms they themselves adhere to instead of own modern 21st century egalitarian values which differ greatly from Westeros.
More likely 1 Cole and 2 Strong XD
It’s bc Geoffrey is crazy
Team 💚💚💚
Legally speaking they have no claim to the throne nor does Rhaenyra by law it is the kings eldest truborn son who gets the crown or the lordship no ifs or buts, that is how it is and has always been, from the era of the first men to the age of the andals all the modern times. By law they are't even Targaryen.
By law they have every right to the throne. They were recognized by their legal father. That's end of discussion.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518no it doesn’t. By law they are deceiving the king about their parentage. Only the king can make someone legitimate, and you can’t do that while lying to the king (or while he’s just sitting in his delulu state denying reality). It doesn’t matter if laenor recognizes them, he can’t legitimize them. They can’t be legitimized unless their true parentage is admitted. What they are doing is treason.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518
Rubbish they were never recognised by anyone, in the end of the day they had as much right to the throne as their mother did meaning none.
@@nightman1790 Yes, they were. That's why their surname is "Velaryons". Their mother rightfull heir and they are first after her. And if you claim Rhaneyra doesn't have any right - good to know you are misogynist 😉
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 They were never recognized, as far as the story goes their last names only serves to hide the obvious truth that they are bastards and bastards doesn't get to inherit anything not to mention that they have no Velaryon blood it would be like Joffrey being counted as a Baratheon despite having zero Baratheon blood. Also even if they were recognized (they weren't nor would they ever be) by law they would be Strongs not Targaryen since you belong to the house your father comes from. As for Rhaenyra she has no true claim to the throne by law her brother Aegon II is the rightful heir as the eldest true born son of the king, that is how it always has been in Westeros from the first men to the andals, all the way up to modern times in ASOIAF.
Let’s roll with the three Strong boys don’t have any claim whatsoever. Fair. Rhaenyra still has two legitimate Targaryen heirs in Aegon and Viserys. Also, there is a process of naturalisation called ‘legitimisation’ which can only be done by a king (or queen). Guess what? Rhaenyra, if the Greens didn’t oppose her, would have been the Queen of Westeros.
That’s why the claim coming from her matters. Let’s pretend Robert wouldn’t murder his bastard ‘kids’ Joff, Myrcella and Tommen if he found out for a second. If he legitimised them, they would not become heir to the Iron Throne. But Rhaenyra’s kids WOULD be.
Aegon is at best (based on Viserys’ wishes) 3rd in line of succession. 6th if Rhaenyra legitimised her kids. There is clearly an issue here.
The fact that laenor didn’t die in the show now means that those boys are also bastards. I’m saying this is based on the laws of this world and not how I feel
@@youngveteran6368
The issue with this is:
1. Rhaenyra and Daemon married in Valyrian custom, and based on that custom one can have multiple partners.
2. For all intents and purposes he has been declared dead. Legally he is dead even if in reality he isn’t.
But yeah it is a complication.
@@realdaggerman105 it’s not canonical tho because laenor is ACTUALLY dead, lol so it’s a “show only” issue imo
Edit: plus there’s a video here on RUclips (I forgot the creator I’m sorry) but he basically stated that even in Valyrian customs it’s not stated that WOMEN could have more than one husband and his justification for this was the fact that even tho aegon had an older sister he was the one pushed ahead of his sister (and you could justify them doing this as a means of soothing an already tense situation with the lord’s of the kingdoms seeing that he’s basically making them beneath the throne and them being the prideful men that they are would much rather bend the knee to a man rather than a woman) , but it’s never stated that women could have more than one husband sure it’s okay to have sex and explore your desires in Valyrian culture it’s never stated that they allowed women to have more than one husband. This isn’t confirmed so it’s up for individual interpretation however me myself it seems logical that even tho they allowed polyamorous relationship the concept of marriage is to ensure the paternity of a man’s child because the woman is definitely the mother but who is the father?? And that would bring about alot of problems and confusion so the idea that they allowed polyamorous relationships is correct but it’s never stated that its 2 men with 1 woman its more open minded SURE, but it’s STILL ROOTED IN PATRIARCHAL INTENT. So even tho laenor isn’t dead it’s not certain if the Valyrian wedding nullified him still being alive my biggest justification for this claim would be this question “ why would she kill him if she could just marry daemon with him at her side under the Valyrian custom?🤔” well probably because even in Valyrian culture WOMEN are not allowed to have more than 1 HUSBAND.
I apologize for the long read if you made it this far😭
@@youngveteran6368
Don’t mind long takes! If you included paragraphs it would have been a very nice read.
HOTD is weird because it is more canon than GOT and potentially more than parts of Fire and Blood. It is sort of showing the ‘actual’ history. The author writing the histories doesn’t actually know what really happened. He is interpreting 3 different people. But that kind of breaks down with stuff like the dragonpit scene, soooooooooo…
But in the show, unless a certain dragonseed is Laenor, he is almost certainly dead by now anyway.
@@realdaggerman105 imo it doesn’t matter if he’s dead because as long as he stays out of the picture most of the “casual fans” which is a majority of the viewers won’t even see a problem because they don’t know the lore that a dragon can’t be claimed while there rider is alive.
Their legitimacy stands unchallenged, primarily because no concrete evidence suggests otherwise.
Ned, Jon Arryn, and Stannis didn't rashly confront Robert with accusations. Instead, they meticulously sought proof, exhausting every lead. This caution was necessary, even crucial, considering they were his closest confidants and his own brother. They knew the gravity of such claims and understood they couldn't just hurl baseless accusations.
As for Rhaenyra's three sons, proving their parentage is an impossible task. Laenor Velaryon not only publicly acknowledges these children as his, but the head of House Velaryon also recognizes them as his grandchildren. Similarly, the patriarch of House Targaryen echoes these claims. In such a tightly knit political landscape, these affirmations carry immense weight, making any contrary proof almost impossible to establish.
It's also against the law to doubt their legitimacy, no matter the proof. King Viserys made it clear: if you question it, you lose your tongue. His word is law.
So: "in-world," no one can claim or even know for sure that these three are bastards. We, as viewers, see the truth, but for people in Westeros, it's off-limits even to suggest it.
Except ned, Jon, and stannis didn't have concrete proof. They had suspiciouns based on past records. Also robbert the king publicly acknowledged cerseis kids as his own.
The only way I'd give any type of legitimacy to those boys is that Laenor did claim the boys as his son's (sure we know they aren't) so if Laenor is fine with claiming them then who am I to give a shit.
That’s not how succession laws work love😭 but it’s okay live in lala land
@@youngveteran6368that is how succession works, though? The Velaryon boys are pretty indisputably legitimate for the following reasons: The King loudly proclaimed multiple times that they were trueborn; the father (Laenor) and mother (Rhaenyra) repeatedly affirmed their legitimacy in public; the lords of the seat they would inherit (the Iron Throne - Viserys; Driftmark - Corlys) affirmed their claims beyond what is usually done for an heir; no other man credibly claimed any of the children as his own. In Westeros, just stating that a kid is yours is enough for it to be accepted as fact. We see this with Edric Storm/Robert, Jon Snow/Ned; “Alayne Stone”/Littlefinger, and even later in the case of a “trueborn” son that Princess Elaena Targaryen supposedly had with Lord Ossifer Plumm, whose line continues all the way into ASOIAF times. Suspicions about parentage aren’t enough to discount them as illegitimate tbh, at least not in the world GRRM created.
@@youngveteran6368them *BLACKS* are goofy.
Read. The. Book. They are STRONG!
Good video, Nice of you to entertain the masses but this agreement is irrelevant. No Matter what, they would have put Aegon on the throne simply because Rhea is a Women and those are her heirs. Being legitimate wouldn't have magically saved their lives 😂
It would have made Rhaenyra more sympathetic.
Well nah. I think if Joffrey wound not be such a vicious lil c nt I don’t think anyone would do drama about it including Ned. Like take for example Myrcella and Thomen they wasn’t without flaws but I think most fandom have quite positive and supportive emotions about them.
the thing is, the vast majority of bastards we know of (every case you mentioned sans joffrey) come from an unwed/wedded male and by that they are uncontestably born outside of marriage therefore unworthy of any of the benefits they could have if they were legitimate. the dynamics change when it comes to a bastard born from a wedded female because said bastard is still born 'inside' the marriage and is their father's offspring until proven otherwise, especially if every party involved approves.
it is different when you compare it to cersei's case because robert didn't know that those weren't his children, if he did he would have them all executed. you mention ned as this great moral compass but you know he acted the way he did because he knew that the lannisters were evil and his friend was deceived, but what if robert knew and approved? how do you think ned wuld act? i mean didn't he just casually approve of jon, the rightful king of westeros, going to the night's watch? i just think these characters' thought processes and actions are way more complicated than what you are trying to pass as here.
also, if ned is as moral as you're trying to state he is then surely you can't compare him to the greens in any capacity, they act out of pure greed and spite and they damn well know that by enabling or supporting other people's claims about the legitimacy of rhae's children they can unravel a chain of events that may culminate in the execution of rhae and her kids, which im pretty sure was their final goal before going to war.
additionally, i see that you are that guy at parties.
It wasn't just lannsiters being evil considering he thought none of the kids had a claimed to the throne, and believed renly shouldn't go ahead of stannis. He was ok with jon going to the watch because the targaryian dynasty was no longer in power.
@@fightingmedialounge519 my point was that ned is not this moral compass they're trying to pass him off as. If he was, he would've made sure to make good on his promise to lyanna and certainly not let Jon rot on the wall.
Ned, unlike Stannis, was able to compromise if it meant good for the realm. If Robert knew and approved of the fact that his heirs were not Baratheon then ned wouldn't interfere at all, it's the fact that he was deceived and many of his supporters already knew the truth and were waiting for the right time to strike that made Ned move at all.
@@luigi-1545 Except his promise was to protect jon, which he did. Also no one here said ned is the moral compass of the series.
Except he actually hasn't ever really compromised for the good of the realm. All of his compromises has been for the sake of his own moral values(again see the interaction with renly for how he handle succession laws). He absolutely would still interfere. At best you could say he wouldn't be as adamant about it.
@@fightingmedialounge519hmmm... no? lol i mean were you in the tower of joy? did your personal bff lyanna stark told you that? didn't think so.
the facts: Ned thinks of lyanna dying and later of (and this is crucial) BROKEN promises.
you can speculate that one of these was to protect Jon/aegon. I mean that is a given - but what else? there was more than one promise, and at least two of those were not kept.
My guess is that one of these was to crown aegon vi/the prince that was promised which of course sounds like madness to ned atp since he has been utterly traumatized by the war and (crucial, again) the brutal murder of rhaegar's other two kids. so, for both the good of the realm (which certainly would bleed again) and the love for his sister and nephew he compromises, burying the last targaryen king as a bastard of winterfell while later letting him rot at the wall.
With this precedent in mind I am certain that if the Lannisters were decent people and Robert knew/approved of cersei's children, Ned wouldn't interfere. At all. It also would be an interesting parallel if you think about it = the true king remains hidden and a bastard while the actual bastard gets to live as the king. However this idyllic scenario is far from the truth of things and instead of peace we get the bloody war of the five kings.
At the end of the day, these are only guesses. The actual fact is that ned, prior to his death, is haunted by the ghost of lyanna and broken promises - do what you will with that.
And this video's author does imply that ned is a moral compass and that his the way to go when it comes to bastards, he specifically uses him as a example when discussing rhaenyra's children rights, I only mentioned him because the author does, as I do.not.think the circumstances of both cases are similar, in the slightest.
@@luigi-1545 well, considering the only source that confirmed jon was her son was the show, and we saw what the promise was there, you would be wrong no matter what angle you look at it from. So you're going with the books then, at which point your wrong considering jon isn't confirmed to be her son there, so it is baseless speculation rather than proof that he broke his promise to lyanna
Your guess is irelavant because that's all that is.
Your precedent shouldn't be your own head cannon. Your arguing a circular point that does nothing to make you look reasonable or show that you actually understand Ned's character.
The key diffeence that you are missing is that Rhaenya's sons would inherit through her right, they are her sons, but Cercei's kids have no Baratheon blood they would inherit through, so you can't compare those cases
They are still bastards through and through no matter what side bastards don’t inherit anything especially not bastards from the female line, unless they are literally the only option left.
Except she also wants her children to inherent driftmark.
I’m one of those who believes the child is yours if you raise them, adoption or bastard status be damned, and should be on the same playing field as their ‘trueblood’ siblings.
However Westoros plays by historic rules where bastards are excluded even if the monarch or head of the family recognized them as their own.
But even with that conceit the three boys in question weren’t even the next direct heirs to begin with so they shouldn’t have been considered at all unless the king had it written in his own hand that he wanted them to be his direct heirs tradition be damned.
The Point about Joffery being a Bastard is missing context. Robert was never given a chance to learn the truth. Viscerys refused to consider them illegitimate. So they are legitimate.
Well just because he refuses to admit it doesn't mean others should too
Small technicalities like that change nothing.
Than Jon is true born according to your logic
He's tried to destroy the integrity of the royal house by passing off those bastards as legitimate. The others royals and many in the realm resisted and didn't let him.
It's not even about Viserys. LAENOR aalimed the, so they are legitimate. (Imagine if king could announce that children of noblemen are bastards whenever it was comorfatble to him because he did not like some noble! 🤯🤯)
The difference between Rehanerya sons and Circe sons is rehanerya is the crown and heir to the throne but cerci married into the royal family and didn’t conceive with a royal member the strong boys are royal by blood no matter the father
All that is true, Rhaenyra's sons does have some claim to the throne, however being born bastards thier claims actually come behind Viserys trueborn sons. In contrast Cersei's children had ZERO claim to throne any at all.
Please correct me, if I'm wrong...Laenor didn't contest the legitimacy, right? Everyone may assume, but if the husband doesn't object and Maury can't test them 🤷🏾♀️. We can't argue that there are no paternity tests, then say blood is the deciding factor. We can't test the blood, so we have to go by the parents say-so.
laenor can do much only the king, he can legitimate but they first have to be recognized as bastard but didn't they were recognized as true born and even of their legitimate they still can't inherit over true born
@goku1dickrder926 That's my point...If BOTH parents say they are true born...they ARE true born. Our eyes may say differently. Our instincts may say differently. But, if they both agree and there are no paternity tests, they are true born.
@@Victoria.Henderson nope bastard as to be seen as bastard then legitimate them been. seen as true born don't mean anything
People forget Jac and Luc mother is named heir by current king and she named her sons trueborn . Thats all that really matters if it was dorne it would be fine but rest of westeros i get how thats a problem. However no one would care if the greens backed her which is what the king wanted . Them going against him even before his death shows them more as usurpers and in the wrong then the blacks. Which leads to the most imprtant fact who was named heir by the last ruler. We all know who . To go against that is treason to break your oath is also treason against laws of westeros. So at the end of the day yes jac luc and joff are legitimate because the only peope who matter (rightful heir and ruler of iron throne) called them legitimate.
People don’t understand that the King decides whether or not to legitimise bastards and he practically did that when referring to them as “my true-born grandson”. Also, Rhaenyra is the heir and her kids are her kids so it doesn’t really matter who the father is because the first born will change their name to Targaryen upon their ascension anyway and they have Targaryen blood. Also they are Betrothed to their First-cousins-once-removed who are Velaryons so I don’t see the issue considering that Orys Baratheon was a bastard, so was Jon Snow for most the show 😂
All the Houses of Westros are bastard Houses. Garth did not marry any of the Women he had children with.
Coming from a team black dem children are bastards doesn’t matter that they come from rhaenyras line or not they are not laenors children and he did not legitimize them stated they were not his children he defended them as his true born children which they were not. The only thing that come close is visery stating that lucerys was the heir to driftmark which even that he has no claim over as he has no Velyron blood as he’s half Targaryen half strong and a quarter arryon
@@taleahroberson7801 They road NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
@@taleahroberson7801 how do you prove theyre illegitimate all of Ned and Cat's kids except Arya do not look like Starks they look like Tullys... Does that make them bastards?!
I mean we know (audience) they're bastards but the characters in the show do not
@@lonemotheomatshaba9640 yea they look like there mother and father with rhaenyras kids they don’t even look like her nor do they look like their proclaimed father laenor and they claimed it because of the Baratheon blood from rhaenys because that’s laenors mothers in reality there is no Baratheon blood because they are not biologically laenors children or they could say because of the Arryons blood but even that to be so dominate in their blood where even in rhaenyra her targ blood is more dominate. But that’s not the case here rhaenyra is half targ half arryon where is are kids are slim in arryon blood as there are really more strong than anything overpowering they’re targ blood where that comes out with them bond with dragons but there is no real case to say when they got there brown eyes and brown hair as the arryon blood is so slim that they got from their grandmothers as even she is not full arryon to warrant dominate arryon traits as rhaenyras kid look like
The reason i cant call them bastards, even though technically they are, is bc Harwon and Rhanera both CLAIM the kids as theirs. He claims them as his kids, regardless if they are or not, until he died. When it came to Ned and Jon, Ned didnt CLAIM Jon as his trueborn son, he proclaimed him as a bastard. When it came to Joffery he was also claimed by his mother AND his "father." The only reason he was called a "bastard" was bc of Ned changing the will. If Ned had never said anything then no one would have called joffery a bastard. Now i will say as a reader and fan, the strong kids are bastards in my opinion, just like joffery and Jon and all the others, but as a westerosi, he wasnt...
Wrong, Leanor turned a blind eye and Rhaenyra defended an obvious lie, that is not the same thing. If the child is your bastard you have to acknowledge him as such before claiming him. Pretending that it is your true born child when it obviously isn’t is not claiming it is straight up lying on everyone’s face.
@@nightman1790 these people are watching hotd from a modern lens so this concept is non existent in there rotting brains
Strong boys are like 3/8 valyrian while Alicent's children are 4/8 valyrian
I'd argue there is no point in saying how they are not true valyrians. They dont look like valyrians but they are valyrians. They ride dragons.
6:40 - YES, history does remeber names. For example, Drusus the Elder of Rome. His mother Livia was married, when she met future emperor Octavian. The two had an affair and pregnant Livia divorced her husband. She moved out into Octavian house and 3 months later she gave birth to Drusus. People were joking that "that happy couple get children in 3 months"! But Roman law said that woman have to wait after divorce or being widowed - otherwise child will be viewed as issue of former husband. So even with question around Drusus was acknowledged as son of her first husband and he lived with him until man didn't die. Only after this he was allowed to live with Livia and Octavian. And we can speculate wheter or not Drusus was son of his legal father, matter is - history remebers him as son of Tiberius Claudius Nero, not son of Octavian, even if he might be actually blood of his legal step-father.
Or example with my country (Poland). King Vladislaus Jagiełło and his second wife Anne for years didn't have a child. After few years Anne was rumored to have affairs with knights. She ultimately became pregnant and gave birth to a daughter. Vladislaus had child by his first wife, so he was capable to have children. Yet he remained cold towards his new daughter, as he didn't believe baby is his. And even if Princess Hedwig was acknowledged as his daughter and heir, we will never know if she was indeed his offspring or child of knight. Vladislaus later had three sons by fourth wife and again rumours started that boys aren't his. And though Queen was aquitted, again - we will never know how much was true in rumours and wheter rest of Jagiellonian dynasty are descendants of Vladislaus or some other man. They were acknowledged as Jagiellons and history rememebrs their names not blood.
Hell, I can even go back to Westeros. Aenys Targaryen - it was speculated that he was result of Rhaneys' affair. But Aegon acknowledged him and that's the end of story. History will remeber names.
The thing is, if they were indeed illegitimate, than there would be problems. People did question their legitimacy, as you said. And due to lack of solid proof, they couldn't do anything. But it doesn't mean that if they DID have proof, they'll still be accepted.
It's a bit different with Drusus because adoptation was very common in Roman times, not quite so for medieval europe.
Blood matters in Westerns because of magic, because of the special looks that they share, and because it literally makes the feudal structure crumble.
There are other claimants to Driftmark like Vaemond, to the Iron Throne Aegon and Aemond who would not allow themselves to be screw up, because king say, like it's basic human behavior.
Plus
I think you could also add the real world example of Mary Boleyn. Her first two children have always been rumoured to have been fathered by Henry VIII, but because she was married at the time, the children were legally her husband’s. When her husband passed away, Mary’s children were very much allowed to inherit his estate because they were legally his children, actually paternity be damned. The same can go for Rhaenyra’s children, they are legally hers and Laenor’s so they shouldn’t be treated like they aren’t
@@spacelia3920 Great example! I didn't even think about t, but indeed! And Elizabeth I herself - her enemies often voiced that she might not be actually Henry's (I think it is obvious she was, but even if she wasn't - still no way to prove this).
@@KaiHung-wv3ul True, but Drusus was never even adopted by Octavian. That's why I given also examples from medieval Europe. But let get one more example from my country - Władysław Jabłonowski was exact opposite - he was BLACK boy born to Polish nobleman in 18th century. It was obvious that English wife cheated on her husband. Yet boy was acknowledged as heir, he was treated as such, and he was viewed as Polish, even if he didn't have a single drop of Polish blood. All of it - because father claimed him. I know it's not medieval times anymore, but still shows how patriarchy works.
You forget one important thing if we talk about principles like Ned had: their legitimate father figure Leanor accepted them. He knew the truth, he was fine with that and they were the only Belarions he could give to his family, that’s why his parents accepted that too and lived the boys. Ned would agree to that and accept them as legitimate, I’m sure. Because he was for honesty. At the same time who could lie for right reasons, like with John Snow
Him being for honesty makes it less likely he would accept a lie like this.
@@fightingmedialounge519 how about him lying all life about John Snow to save the kid?
@@hannaharnyk7607 not really comparable considering he's keeping jon because of a promise, and isn't interfering with anyone's inheritance.
The ''Strong" boys are dragonlords that make them 100% Valyrians
I doesn't work like that but if that is your opinion...
Blood and legitimacy are two different things.
It is that simple in ur head right?! I cannot wait for u to write ur on book that would be 1 and half pages long just u agreeing with urself because of ur feelings
Than nettils the dragonseed is the true heir than according to you logic
Dragonseeds must be for you true Valyrians too then. Also considering how lame and bad dragonriders were the strong bois, the term of "dragonlord" is underserving.
Jace killed his dragon by accident for flying too low.
Yes , ned was wrong. He literally comitted high treason
6:52 - And how you gonna PROVE that child has no connection to family???? You can't do genetic test. Only FATHER is person who could renounce child. And Laneor did not do it.
But he is not the father n he ain’t black they are bastards
In your eyes is Joffrey a bastard?
@@jjosifovic None can prove that. If he says they are his, none can challenge his words without insulting him.
@@jjosifovic Legally he is not - he was acknowledged by Robert.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518lol they can prove it just by standing next to each other
This whole video just proves how stupid the concept of bastardy is in Westoros because the fact that a child doesn't look a certain way can be weaponized to disinherit them like it's stupid
I want to bring Ned into this as well in the books all of Ned and Cats children except Arya have the blue eyes and red hair of house Tully unlike the black hair and grey eyes of house Stark should we now claim that they are illegitimate?! That's basically the argument the Greens are trying to use to disinherit the Strong Boys
Legitimacy is not based in blood.... It's based on the person in power saying this my heir, this is who I want to succeed me..... Symbols like looks, swords and whether someone can fly a dragon are all used to prove legitimacy not the other way around..
It's why noone believes Stannis.... It's why non of the other kingdoms never declared for Stannis because how do you as an outsider of the marriage prove this is not the son of my brother... Robert fully believed Joffery was his son and fully intended on him succeeding him Ned committed treason by not honoring the kings wishes
Has nothing to do with looks... good lord
@@jonnybgoode7742 Ooookayyyy... So what proof do the Greens have that they're bastards, if looks don't factor in? You can't say Laenor being gay and/or sterile, because in-world Laenor was believed to have a bastard; Adam of Hull. (Most fans believe that Adam was Corlys's bastard, but the accepted story in-world is that he was Laenor's.) And we know that Laenor and Rhaenyra tried repeatedly, so even if everyone knew she was having an affair with Harwin, that's not proof either (especially since you're saying looks aren't a factor...)
@@reddest-x are you serious?... "look at them" aegon
@@jonnybgoode7742 That's NOT how law works. Also, in book they actually CNA be Laneor's sons and Aegon still uses this argument. Would you support someone insulting child who simply got nlucky genes??? Laenor claimed children and unless he denounce them, boys had to be tretaed as legitimate. That how law works.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 you keep repeating the same irrelevant stupid shit. No, they cant be his sons and everyone can plainly see it. That's how life works, genius.
What makes them LEGITIMATE is they are ADOPTED by the legal husband. That’s all that matters ADOPTION is legit
Adoption doesn't seem to exist in westeroes.
Only a king can legitimize a bastard, you goofy.
Are we really using blood quantum as an argument here? Are you suuuuuuuuure thats something you want to support, publically?
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just ignorant, but Y I K E S.
That's actually the argument of the black side. Quiet a few are valyrian supremacists and really into blood purity and that stuff. That's why they like Daemon and Rhaenyra so much, even though he groomed her and is violent towards her. Because they are both valyrian.... So if you want to argue against them you kind of have to use that as well. Otherwise they will try and use that against you 🤷♀️ In real life? Who cares about blood, your personality matters.
On Planetos ( the name of the world House of the Dragon takes place ) your personality doesn't matter much though. Then Daeron would be a good king and Jace as well.
@@danika9411 Listen darling, stop lumping blacks ide to one bag. I do NOT like Daemon, I find him creepy and not trustworthy. I am on Rhaenyra's side because she is rightfull heir and she is not assaulting other people what her incompetent brother dearest does. And of course ruler should be chosen on basis of personality and qualities but we are in Westeros, so we can only gow with options we have. Adn those options are Rhaenyra and Aegon. Rhaenyra is better option and definitely legitimate.
A bastard is a child born to parents who are not married to each other -- In this scenario we have two consenting adults who are married and who agreed to use a sperm donor to conceive a child. In the legal sense, they are Rhaenyras and Leanors children. The use of a sperm doner doesn't invalidate their inheritance.
Except surgate parenthood isn't a thing in that time.
6:05 Because they WERE traitors. No such things as paternity test in Westeros. How can you PROVE someone is bastard??? Yes, Joffrey was terrible king and should be ovethrown, but because he was incompetent ruler, not because of his alleged bastrdy. I can name you many historical figures whose legotimacy was questioned, yet they were conisdrede legitimate heirs because ultimately - none can prove their bastardy. Same things in case of Cersei and Rhaneyra's children. I think if offery was kind and loving individual Ned would not think even twice about changing Robb testament.
you wrote.. 5 deferent comments all of them paragraphs.. this really hurt you huh?
@@parikshitrao4208 Yes, it does. It's frustrating to see people lack of basic understading. Fine, viewers know who is legitimate and who is not. But in-world opponents cannot prove this and that's teh end of discussion. In books boys might have been actually Laenor's sons. What is difference? None. They were recognized by him in both worlds and people can wishper but cannot do nothing more. No genetic test is available.
@@parikshitrao4208 And I wrote 5 comments, not 4.
Because genetic in Westeros works differently, GRRM says it all the time. The fact that Cercei's children have golden hair is a proof that they don't have Baratheon's blood. This is a great argument for their universe where big houses keep certain types of appearance for centuries. The appearance IS Westerosi genetic test ( which actually works, by the way).
And on the contrary, there were monarchs that were accused in illegitimacy and that became the reason they were killed/ prisoned/ lost their power. So it's not a great argument to say that this type of rumours didn't affect some monarch because, again, others were affected.
We as modern people know that sometimes children don't look like their biological parents, but for medieval times the appearance was a great argument. The main factors were power and influence that a monarch could use to shut down those rumours, that's all. Not because others couldn't "prove" it.
@@yasmina3999 No monarch ever lost their throne because of illegitimacy rumor alone. There were few instances when someone was rumored of being bastard, but it was because they were unpopular. If they lost power it was because they were very incompetents leaders.
No, I did NOT enjoy this vid - it's very frustrating hearing the same arument over and over again "They were bastards because they were born outside of marriage". And WHO is gonna prove that and how??? Yes, they are legitimate heirs, as they were recognized as such by their legal father. None can prove they aren't his children. The only reason people question them is their look. So, okay, you wanted it yourself - in book boys can legitimate. So let's assume that they are bastards in show and legitimate in book. What is difference?? NONE. Absolutely none. They are acknowledged legitimate heirs. People can speculate about their ancstry, but they cannot PROVE anything. Velaryon Boys are first in line after Rhaneyra wheter you like it or not. (And yes, Ned was incorrect in trying underime Robert's children postition. If I was reading about Ned in history book, I would label him as traitor. That we as viewer know the truth doesn't change in eyes of law both Baratheon and Velaryon kids are legitimate because they were claimed by their mothers' spouses.)
its very easy, the only reason it seems plausible in the show is because those morons made the velaryons black. The strong bastards had andal features, black hair and so on. You cant keep crying "but but no paternity tests in the past" when both the parents were pure to the point of being inbred and had pale silver hair but the sons somehow have black hair. Bruh even a blind dude could say they were bastards.
@@parikshitrao4208 You know they are actual cases of light-skinned children born to black or mixed couple. Yes,WE know Harwin is father, but it would be biologically possible to have lighter child and most people in realm did not know about Harwin. They only know rumors. Also - storytime from my country. Władysław Jabłonowski from 18th century was son of noble man... or rather nobleman's wife and some servant, because it was clear to anyone who looked that his faher had to be from Africa. But Władyslaw was still acknowledged by father as his heir, despite being black. And he was treated as legitimate, despite it was obvious he wasn't. But his (step)father claimed him and ultimately - that is only thing that mattered.
Bruh u wrote like 5 seperate paragraphs 😂😂
@@ankhangel3055 Yes, I did. One post might be lost, I had to make sure people will see my message. This vid is absolutely ridiculous and creator is obviously biased towards Greens, so I had to call it out.
@@ankhangel3055This dude has no life tryin to prove they aren’t bastards like he’s their house servant😂
Jace and Luke are undoubtedly more Targaryen than the Green children. They are Hightowers in every way except blood.
In what way are they Hightower? They ride dragons, they speak Valyrian, they all have the classic Targaryen looks and they even practice incest, not to mention the fact that Helaena has dragon dreams, that's not a Hightower trait, it's purely Targaryen. In fact Fire and Blood actually states point blank that the sons Alicent had with Viserys were unmistakably Targaryen.
It's rather bizarre that Black supporters in the fandom would assert that they are not "real Targaryens" when the source material tells us the exact opposite
@@truetory6231 their very existance is apart of a Hightower plot to usurp the throne! To me this make them Hightowers. And plus in show Visarys never claims them😂! “My only child”😂😂😂
@@ev2155 The throne is not being usurped, the Great Council at the start of the show ruled that a king's sons and the sons of his sons get preference to the throne over all female line descendants. Aegon's succession was actually in keeping with the old Targaryen tradition embraced by all other Targaryen kings both before and since.
The fact that Viserys violated the tradition of his house by naming Rhaenyra as heir and the fact that he is an uncaring father towards his other children does not mean that they are not real Targaryens?
The books tells us that they are real Targaryens and no amount of wishful supposition can change that.
In the book not very valid in the show oblivious
It is just as valid in the books,