Roland & The FUTURE of Electronic Drums in 2020 | The eDrum Workshop
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2024
- Where are electronic drums heading and is it the right direction? Roland's new VAD kits fall in line with other companies but is there something to be more concerned about?
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Drum-tec offered Roland (and Yamaha) to licence their acoustic drum pads in 2008. Both companies visited that small company near to Hannover, Germany and both were not interested. They said electronic drummers wants to have flat plates to drum on. This was the birth of Drum-tec's own line of edrums.
Very interesting! Is there anything written up about that?
@@TheeDrumWorkshop No. I was talking to the founder of Drum-Tec when I bought my TD20 these days in the Drum-Tec store. He was telling me this story. At this time they just started to sell their own first drumsets. I was really fascinated because I never saw such beautiful electronic drums. Today I am playing a drum-tec pro-s in ice birch. (Shells are made by Sonor)
Ahh, gotcha! Very interesting to hear - clearly they didn't think this part of the market would open up so much in the future whereas drum-tec did! Their kits really are awesome, I'd love to play a full drum-tec setup one day!
Ive had acoustic set for 40 years. Got my first e-kit 2 years ago due to volume issues. If you havent tried one they are an absolute blast. And I can practice past midnight.
Glad you've found the solution that works for you! It's very handy to have one for practice at home but I even enjoy gigging mine - much less volume to be battered with at a show!
Well articulated thoughts Luke! I like your respectful criticism of Roland's influence on the market. I'm getting on the TD-27 train, and I'm convinced that the choice of PDX-100 and KD-10 is two fold:
1. The price of the full kit is very close to the digital upgrade: move old stock with regard to pads and rack.
2. People like myself at playing level probably own 'full sized' pads anyway, so no point developing something new.
Anyway, I agree with your thoughts presented in the video. Well done mate.
Thanks Tim, glad you enjoyed it! You know, I was thinking about this after I recorded it and I think you're right. I hadn't properly checked the prices against each other but it totally makes sense in regards to getting rid of the stock. And yeah, I suppose if you're buying in at that price range, you might have other pads to swap in or you'd be comfortable upgrading parts down the line. Well spotted!
I love your commentary and perspective on this topic. I am very happy you are part of the edrum community. Please keep putting out content. I love it.
Thanks Shawn, glad you're enjoying the videos! I don't intend on stopping any time soon!
i just switched to edrums in my live performances after 40 years of playing Tama, Premier ,Pearl ,Sleishman ,Natal now a Roland vad 503 is the kit i have started with ,i will be adding :-) i have a lot to learn , we actually have been asking studio and live mixers to manage our sound to be Edrum like for years it made sense to switch especially with massive amount of low volume gigs now , my practice kit has been a roland or yamaha kit for years love your channel thanks for the kits i downloaded last week and thank you for responding to my enquiry , Paul from Australia
Your thought are well structured and presented. I have never played atv products. I really like Roland products. I recently bought a KD140 and a second pdx100 to finish off my scrapped together TD50 kit. And I love it. The move Roland made imo was very smart. And I’m glad they changed their trigger design after so many years. And because atv kids aren’t seen in sorted often, I’ll probably play and new Roland kit well before and atv kit. And in turn end up buying new Roland components.
Thanks Jon! ATV products are definitely well made and worth the money, but as you say, the lower availablity makes it harder to test them out. Roland have that side of things wrapped up!
Dude wonderful video...wonderful and very level headed thoughts that I for one appreciate
Me too!
I couldn't agree with you more on this video. I am about to purchase my first e-kit. I haven't had the opportunity to be able to play an acoustic set in years, and I am tired of waiting for that opportunity to present itself. I'm honestly surprised how much I care about what my new kit looks like, but I guess I really want it to be as close to an acoustic kit as possible. And at a price of $5,000, I want to love my purchase decision! The ATV drums turn me off with their tiny bass drum and two rack toms that are the exact same size. Literally just kills it for me, so I am going with Roland. I have a flow chart of going from this with your samples, to VST, to ATV with a Pearl Mimic, but Roland is where I am starting, and it's mainly because of the looks and attention to detail, combined with their reputation / history.
I also love and respect that there are other companies that are much smaller, like ATV that are rivaling giant companies like Roland. Honestly, if they were more readily available in the United States, it might shift my thoughts on which one to purchase. They both offer different things and drawbacks, such as Roland's digital pads not being compatible with the Mimic Pro... and ATV not offering a digital pad to begin with.
PS - Thanks again for educating us and helping us make these big decisions / sharing random bits of information that you're passionate about!
I have been playing Roland E-kits exclusively live for 20 plus years 65-75 gigs a year!!!!!
Subbed. I am surprised I haven't found this channel before. Between 2000 and 2011, I dabbled with Roland (TD-10, and TD-20), dDrum (the original company from the 90's), Yamaha, Pintech, Alesis, and other brands in a futile attempt attempt to recreate the acoustic experience. I ended with that TD-20 and Addictive Drums in 2011 and thought I wouldn't go back. About 6 months ago, I was forced to come back to the edrum market for reasons of noise. I was not interested in Roland from past experience (great product, not great sounds), and I didn't want the hassle of using a VST. I found ATV and immediately recognized that a niche had been filled. Of course I found other companies soon after, some you mentioned in this video, but ATV was the only one who offered a line of what appeared to be well designed cymbals, in great sizes, and a module that utilized samples. I have had my ATV kit for about 4-5 months now. My complaints are trivial at this point. It took time to dial in the trigger settings, but the end result is that I turn it on, I play, and it doesn't get in the way. I can switch to an acoustic kit and I am totally comfortable. As I have commented to others, ATV is making an excellent product at a price that I think is below what it could be. Even more, they are pushing other companies out of their comfort zone, so I wasn't surprised at all when Roland released the VAD line. It's actually good for all of us, whether you play Roland or someone else - viable competition is good.
Thanks Jim! I'm glad that you've managed to find what you want on returning to the eDrum world! Many will tell you nothing has really changed but I'd say your experience is a testament to the fact that the last few years have finally pushed the scene forwards. I agree about ATV pushing other companies out of their comfort zones. I hope they manage to continue as a strong competitor in the market as they deserve it with their quality products!
@@TheeDrumWorkshop I had the chance to watch a couple of your other videos. I hope you continue to produce content. You seem to be good at providing enough information without being verbose, and entertaining at the same time. I especially appreciate your attempt to consider viewpoints of consumers and manufacturers when presenting a topic. Best of luck.
competition is always good for the consumer
You never talk nonsense and ALWAYS make valid points Luke, you da man!!
Ahh, you're far too kind! Thanks Stephen!
1 thing I'm in total accordance with you. Branding
very accurate and open mind review dude
AND. Mesh heads, of course!
Yes, they certainly know how to brand and market their products!
Well i love the look of the new Roland drums especially the double bass kit they displayed at Namm 2020. I truly wish they would come out with something that can have multi layered samples as well as a color monitor. Skip the cable snake as well and have individual inputs an outputs. Physical sliders would also be a must. They truly need something to compete with the Pearl Mimic Pro and the Alesis Strike Pro module. If the Strike Pro module did not have a 200mb kit size limit i believe they would see a massive increase in drummers using their module.
Oh, don't get me wrong - I like how they look and think they're ultimately a good thing. You're right, that kit they showed off looked beasty! The thing is, they're unlikely to do away with the cable snake or put sliders on their mid-tier modules as it would defeat the point of the TD-50. I wonder if they'll do a VAD variation down the line paired with the 50 or if that'll wait until the next flagship. I agree they need to up their game with the features and sounds of the modules - I enjoy using the 50 but I would enjoy it more with some features or sound quality from the other modules.
I wonder if the impending MIDI2 protocol has anything to do with Roland seemingly 'holding back' on the current generation of drum samples, both within the module and imported on SD cards?
Very insightful and thought provoking... I’m both a happy atv customer and a happy Roland customer...
Thanks Steve! Glad you enjoy all sides of it, as do I!
Jee, they should make you CEO in the E drum nation.
Ahh man, you're far too kind! Thanks for watching!
Great and thoughtful analysis. Roland have definitely had their thumb over the end of the hose for as long as I can remember.
Hopefully the increased demand and competition will help develop and diversify edrums to satisfy groups of end users.
One of my main gripes with Roland is their lack of transparent aftersales and spares service. For a company so big, with so much dominance in the market for so long there should be an extensive online catalogue for spares.
The thing is, and I say this as a guy that played only acoustics for the first 30 years of my drumming life, companies like ATV just aren't well known, especially in the US. You will not see a single ATV product in any major music store in the US. So when I first got into E-Drums, as an acoustic guy, Roland and Yamaha were really the only 2 brands in my mind at the time. I learned more about Alesis, and at least they're a known brand in the US, but the reputation of a lot of their e-drums (aside from the lower end kits like the Nitro and Surge) is just pretty awful. You see a lot of complaints by drummers online about Roland who don't actually own, nor ever played Roland drums, but nearly everyone that does will tell you how much they love them. When I got an ancient TD-5 module (1996) after playing a Nitro, and realized the TD-5 sounded better, and had more fine tuning adjustments than an Alesis module made in 2019. I quickly realized how far behind some other companies are to Roland with e-drums. Yes, companies try to make money. That's capitalism. Roland not only makes great e-drums, they have been a leader in electronic instruments as a whole since the late 70s. I mean they made the Juno 60 for pete's sake! Yes their products are expensive, but they're professional gear that will last you a lifetime if taken care of. The same could be said for Yamaha too for the most part, but not so much for many of the other e-drum companies out there.
After doing an a to e conversion I was surprised to find it took up less space than my td20.
I am happy electric drums are putting a greater emphasis on acoustic sized ergonomics and feel. That's something us acoustic drummers hate (dare I say the most) about electric kits: the feel isn't there. Improvements in mesh heads is helping a lot. Roland's digital snare is rather impressive. Next should be a leap in innovation to prefect triggering low-volume cymbals. It's there, but not quite refined and kind of niche.
I'm also glad other companies have come out with modules. I have played on and tweaked around on both the Roland TD-20 and TD-50 back when they were all the rage. I know it's Roland's "thing," but I detest their machine gun samples. Drum-Tec's library for the Alesis Strike is looking like a great $750 alternative.
Lastly, I agree with what you said about the market. Why? Because I'm who they are aiming toward. I have a practice kit at home that I 1) am tired of playing pads on and 2) can't play acoustically due to my situation. I'm forced to transition. I've been researching A2E conversations for a few years now. The way the market is starting to transition, people like us may be able to just skip the process and get everything we want from the start. I'll still go forth with my conversation, but the future looks exciting.
Buddy you're so fucking on the ball, and eloquent and sept critical as in"I could be wrong!
Totally a masterclass for me as a former guitarist in a funky band turned drummer in a country bamd, being harassed by everybody that I decided to get dd90digi.. as Spd-sx which I have used and programmed and played with extensively as the drummer was reluctenf to learn how that (handclap we called it, as it was the sole reason for coercing the drummer to get us! We needed a handclap on the on just like Blackwell did in with Prince! SO not having to have to buy it as there was not much equally functional tools back then, the price of DD90 was a Jo brainer for me.
Well we'll see how it goes! :-D
I converted to drummer only because the electronic sets made that possible due to many aspects (live with taking in and out of your car THE WHOLE THING OR putting the sampler and pedals into a bag and carry with your life is equally ATTRACTIVE, So I started on medeli and don't thing I'd ever decided to pursue it with discipline and regularity in order to be happy with myseld! (Each day a bit closer to John Henry Bonham , That's the life mission even at 42!
AND BEING A MUSICIAN IS EASIER FOR MANY MORE PEOPLE WHO OTHERWISE WOULD HAVE NEVER FOUND THEIR LIFE OASSOL
So thank you for laying it out there! Thx
Greatest post on RUclips.
Roland should sell the larger pads without the modules. I would think anyone dropping 4k to 5k on a set would see what the different choices are? Maybe That is just me? Do drummers just buy a DW Collectors without shopping around? Great discussion. Your videos are a great addition to the E-drum world.
Thanks for watching Frank, glad you enjoyed it! I think they'll probably offer their pads for sale without the module down the line. I don't know if they'll go on to sell a shell pack like ATV does though, it will probably be individual like their previous pads have been. And at a much higher mark up than when you buy them as part of a kit, I would imagine!
I think if Jobeky, Drum-Tec and other companies had more distribution in the U.S., there would be more choices! I really like what Drum-Tec has to offer, but I'm not going to pay those huge shipping charges to get it shipped to the U.S. and if something should break on the drums, then I would have to ship the drums back to Germany for a replacement. In the U.S., Roland is in just about any well-stocked music store. That is why so many people like and use their products. Alesis is here also, but I believe Roland is more popular.
I agree that Roland's distribution network and budget means that they're gonna be on top for a loooong time! Many of the smaller companies just don't have the reach - even ATV, though available in many parts of the world, just don't have the capacity to be as readily available to try at a store, for instance.
I do wonder if drum-tec will ever manage to expand outside of Germany, that'd be really special. Even in the UK, it's costly to get it sent if you don't spend over the threshold for free shipping or to return, so I've been sticking to just heads etc. Fortunately we don't have to deal with taxes at the moment.
ATV BABY!
The future is vst level modules. Will be interesting to see what roland do with their modules next.
Love this video. Insightful and right on point. You should start a podcast on Edrums or better yet for all thing drums. Your speaking voice is great and your opinions are quite interesting.
Thanks! I've thought about the idea of doing something like that - may be something for the future! Right now the work load of the videos keeps me pretty busy haha!
Positional sensing and the trigger tech of all of Roland's analog pads were basically perfected in the late 90's. Roland has had every opportunity to produce bigger pads/cymbals for the last 20 years. The tricone design is certainly not a new innovation either. We've seen DIY products like this before. We could've had real size roland pads and drums 15 years ago. I completely agree with your statements. I want to support ATV but they're so close to acoustic sizes, not quite there. If they had just released 14/10/12/14 sizes to begin with I'd have already gotten a set. As much as I dislike Roland's take on edrums, they've finally got a 14 inch snare and 18 ride which does trigger superiorly to any analog pad. I also think ATV shot themselves a bit in the foot releasing their pads and cymbals at such high prices. They are no doubt better than rolands analog pads but at minimum the same or much higher prices - it's just not viable for anyone but professionals. A 14 inch cymbal should not cost 300 eur, their 18 inch ride (which is small by acoustic standards) for 500 euro. They could take down the whole e drum market by getting a cheaper set of shells with proper sizes, taking their amazing trigger system, pairing it up with the best samples that they've got in the aD5 and price it below the TD-27KV which is just in reach of more serious drummers. Throw in 3ply heads and your product will be superior to any DIY setup, any roland or alesis kit in price/performance.
Yeah, they took a long time bringing anything new to the table! I agree about ATV, I feel like they missed a trick by not just doing 14" snare and floor toms from the get-go. It surely wouldn't have been all that much trouble? As for the prices of ATV - I'd love to think they could have come in cheaper with them but I get the feeling they might have done so if they could. Obviously, I don't know for sure, but I think with just how few of these kind of products get sold and the amount of R&D it all takes, there's not really any way to massively undercut without inconsistent quality and a cheap feeling (see Alesis).
I've played both electric and acoustic for 30+ years, and from what I can tell, the drum manufacturers have nailed the look and size of the drum shells on these new electric kits. The area that they are lacking in is the cymbals. While the high-end electronic cymbals have amazing sounds, they still feel like you're hitting a large rubber disc. The other issue I have is the overall cost of the nicer kits. $3,000+ is just too expensive for the average drummer. If the manufacturers can create an acoustic/electric kit in the range of $1,500, they will catch on much faster.
i agree on the argument about drummers that had to use e drums because of noise or oder reasons, heck im one of them and i literally did what you said in the video, wanted to play and i remembered that roland was the "king" of e drums and after a lot of reserch i went for roland because thats what seemed to be the best option and now when they even have full sized kits and e drum modules dont sound like 80s casio keyboard drums, i would guess a lot of people will jump back into drumming.
It's definitely a huge sector of the market that I think some eDrummers forget actually exists! I'm glad that Roland are available and are now offering the choice for you to get these products rather than missing out!
Dude. Your`re sooo right. We need to talk!:)
Thanks! Sure, drop me a message whenever!
I think the patent on mesh drums that Roland got in 1997 has been more important than we can ever imagine. The patent was holding back Rolands only strong competitor Yamaha. With that I mean that Yamaha has the same finacial muscles as Roland.
Yamaha respected the patent and tried a work around by inventing the silicone heads but they where much to expensive to make in larger sizes and mesh won the market acceptance.
The patent went out in 2017 and se what happens almost directly. Yamaha releases the dtx10 with mesh and larger sizes.
What also happened is that Roland released the new digital interface exactly when the patent on mesh went out.
I think that if anyone is going to be able to seriously challenge Roland in the next 10 years its Yamaha. But then they need to play their cards well and also step into the digital interface trend. It will be an interesting 10 years to come.
Your info is invaluable and essential for us guys trying to learn as much as we can about electronic drum kits.Thank you!
It would be interesting to see rolands recent edrum patents knowing that such products will already have been invented by them but not known by us
Ooh yeah, I wonder if they've filed many more recently. I don't really know much about looking up that side of things but I'm sure someone will!
The eDrum Workshop I can guarantee one; digital hihat!!
@@gazz5467 For 999$ hihat and shity Roland sound since decade, vh13 cost already 750$, it won't happens.
Paul J I’m not sure, I think they would reduce the retail on the Vh13 and do the digital for around the same mark. The new Roland cymbals are pretty cheap in comparison to atv’s.
Roland are FOLLOWERS. They have their own patent trolls looking at what has lapsed from bedroom inventors. Their pedigree is waveform tech - originally adopted from keyboard synthesizers (same engines). If you took a legitimate risk as a Roland inventor, you would not last long. Small, risky, nimble, free-to-think enterprises usually go out on a limb and push the boundaries. The mega corps are all too often scavengers - hidden in glossy promo.
Have you found out what the 28ch USB does yet? Love the VAD506 but not the tower in the bd. Terrible. I’d have to spend extra money to replace it I’d get a 20” Jobeky or something. I’d love a 16” floor too. I can convert mine 16x14 Mapex armory floor.
I've not had chance to look into that yet, no! Need to remember when I have a few minutes! Have you tried one of those Roland kick heads? It's the pad from one of the towers but it's actually built into a drum head, not attached to a tower inside or anything. But a drum-tec wouldn't steer you wrong!
I think Roland bringing these kits out is a good thing for us consumers. The quality will probably be great and they're surprisingly keenly priced IMO. I have an ATV kit (which I do love btw) but had this been available when I bought it, hmmm, it would have been a really tough choice and if i'm totally honest I would have probably got the Roland due to their renowned reliability and the playability of the snare and the ride.
Yeah, it does seem good for the overall consumer-base! And I agree, Roland are typically synonymous with reliability and I'm sure many people would have struggled with choosing if it was out earlier. The digital pads are the trump card at that price point, the major edge over ATV. ATV have the natural sounds, Roland has natural playability from those pads!
@@TheeDrumWorkshop if i'm honest with myself i don't think my technique is advanced enough to really make use of the digital snare. The ATV one picks up enough of my mistakes as it is! Ha ha
I hear you on the ATV sounds. They do sound really great and I love knowing i'm playing a Sabian HH ride or a DW kit or a Yamaha brass snare, really makes a difference to me for some reason. Daft I know.
Naahh, not daft, it's nice to know what drums have been recorded to make those sounds rather than it just being some "generic type" of snare etc. As for technique, fair play! But I wouldn't say you need any better technique for it, it actually helps transfer your skills over to eDrums more naturally so you don't end up changing it by mistake. However, I hear the ATV snare is very good, especially paired with the aD5 so if it works for you, stick with it!
By the way I do have an old Roland TD-12 and use an SPD-30 for small gigs but use a PA which makes them sound ok. So its not Roland bashing in my last comment just life's learning curve which I obtained a few years back fortunately .
Nah, I get that you aren't specifically hating on Roland or anything, it's just the nature of the sounds they produce and the reality of the speakers! I used to run my whole kit off an Octapad with some MIDI trickery, managed to get good results but again, needed those decent speakers and a good monitor for the on-stage sound. If a venue we played didn't have a great PA, it definitely suffered.
Btw: Love this channel! Keep it coming!:)
☺️
You are describing exactly me
Here's the thing. SMALL venues - circa 100-200 patrons (many not more than 50) make up around 70% (grapevine figure...feels right) of gigs. Considerably more in Japan, where they have little punk bars/dive houses - and many large cities around the world. EDM, which e-drums are particularly adept at, figure heavily. There are MANY drummers playing something other than a 4-6 piece, "western pub rock" at a 500 patron medium venue with in-house PA. My BIG question is WHY, WHY, WHY the fixation on taking up the SAME DRUM KIT SPACE as an unwieldy full acoustic kit? Seriously, the LUG is one reason I originally quit a working rock band in Sydney - and joined another as guitarist. It felt like a freaking holiday! Full kits take up around 2.5 to 4 or more SQUARE METERS of small-venue real estate. Then there's the CRAM. Yep, arrive at the venue - "what?!? I've gotta fit THERE?". Please forgive my rave, I'm finishing shortly. Now, with all the outrageous production power, convenience and FLEXIBILITY of e-drums...and preponderance of smaller venues - why maintain the physical difficulties and restrictions which were part of the exodus from acoustic kits in the first place? Seems like tight psychological framing to me. How about setting up in 5-10 minutes and enjoying an extra 90 minutes a night with band members and patrons? AND getting the exact sound you want (or close to it)? Don't forget - CORPORATIONS like Roland, for all their billions - come up with less than one-third of all new products/inventions to market. That's right. Backyard/bedroom innovators out-do corporations at the rate of 2-1...working with often, bugger all funds. Corporations don't reward real risk in product development - they FIRE them. They "value" changing a button, an incremental product revision, a new paint scheme. Roland are doing what unimaginative corporations do - waiting until others have done the hard work, and the risk has gone out of the next release, because the innovators have taken the risks and set the trends. Here endeth the lesson. :-)
I equate Roland to Apple, they will take early innovation then adapt it to their platform and act as if they created it. I am pretty sure if 2Box took off because of open sound architecture then Roland would copy it and present it as one of their innovations. They have their good qualities as well, triggering and midi implementation is one of their best qualities. Great video.
After Roland stopped selling internal products to DIY ers, I walked away until I just bought the TD50 upgrade pack. What I have learned over the years is do not sell your older gear. I will never sell my 2Box modules, I will use them to fill in where Roland, Yamaha and other products fall short. Quality drum sounds and a open architecture. Lessons learned over the years.
I predict Within 20 years and probably sooner edrums will be the standard over acoustic drums for most performing. Like electric guitar and keyboards dominate the music scene. Music shops I go to sell edrums at a ratio of 5:1 and with the new line of VAD will only speed up the live use of edrums. Edrums would become the industry standard overnight if roland paired up with toontrack.
A bold statement! But I have a feeling there may well be some truth there - if Roland's VAD kits do what they're hoping, people will be far more to take those kinds of kits on stageand normalise the idea much more - especially after spending that amount of money. Definitely an interesting time.
The best thing about the VAD line is they are the flagship and therefore more expensive. That make the Vdrum line a much better buy. It seems a silly trend to me to pay more for a shell that doesn't resonate and is harder to pack and move around. Before long, they'll be bragging about bearing edges and exotic woods. I really don't understand why some people care so much about the looks... has anyone ever had a groupie reject them because their drum shells are shallow?
We are drummers, we love aesthetics!
True, we're suckers for good looking kits!
Of course its a good thing that Roland makes full sized drum pads now, a lot of e-drummers wanted full sized pads for themselfs and maybe were afraid to go for some of the not well known brands because of quality reasons and stuff, e drums outside of major countries like uk or america or germany are hella expensive and i mean serious money and i understand that not everyone wanted to spend a lot of money for a product that could be "beta version" if you know what i mean, people trust roland when it comes to quality of products and i bet those full sized drums will sell good, not iphone level of e drum market but reasonable good, the new module will sell really really good tho.
Yeah, you're right! In all the talk of "choice", I forgot to address the issue of availability - even brands like ATV that are available in a lot of places, they might be really expensive or not available to try out in a store! Roland has a good distribution network and are a trusted brand so that makes sense!
So when do you suppose a new flagship module (and kit) from Roland will arrive the earliest?
I don't really expect a new flagship until next year at the earliest. But people who know more than I do have speculated that it could be this year based on the 4 year cycle of the TD-30. But before that it was much longer and the rest of the modules of this generation have come later so I'm personally not holding out hope for another one yet.
@@TheeDrumWorkshop thanks! I'm inclined to get the td50kv. Always played on an acoustic kit and then moved to a td4kv when I moved to the city. I've been out of the game for some years now but seeing the td50kv I'm getting hyped again. I'm just thinking it would suck if a new flagship arrives in a few months with better sounds (and it would also probably cause a price drop with the current flagship if I would still choose for that).
Yeah, there's always a risk that another product is going to come out and make you regret the purchase. But on the flip side, being an early adopter can sting too sometimes so it can go either way. I would never want to advise either way too heavily in case it backfired haha!
I'd personally look at what currently fits your needs. Then, if you're not ready to buy right now, keep your eyes open for any obvious discounts on the current model - that often happens in the run up to a new product launch. Good luck, whatever you decide on!
@@TheeDrumWorkshop thank you for the advice. I'll need to wait a few months anyway to build an extra room. I'll keep my eyes open for news and deals.
Been away for too long. Had a Td-17 back in the day, and I ended up not playing it very much because the snare and hi-hat never felt anywhere close to an acoustic feel. I don't really care too much for the sounds, but it just never felt like right.
How is it nowadays? Did any manufacturer managed to sort that?
How long ago was that? Do you mean the TD-17 that's been out for a couple of years, or the old TD-7? The new digital snare on the TD-50 and TD-27 has got the acoustic "feel" much closer now. As for sounds, the Pearl Mimic Pro, 2box drumit 3 & 5, ATV aD5 and even the Alesis Strike Module with imported samples can get you much closer to true acoustic territory.
There's no all-in-one solution that has all these bases covered yet, though.
@@TheeDrumWorkshop Thanks for replying. Sorry I actually mean the TD-12, my bad.
My problem is that it seems electronic drums never pick nuances such as closed rolls in pianissimo, and things like that. The hi-hats always felt strange since they're rubber and the rebound is different.
What's your experience nowadays?
No problem! Yeah, I know what you mean! I think they've gotten much better on the sound front and I'm very happy with what I have (TD-50 and Mimic Pro) but a lot of the tech and things like the hi hats haven't really advanced much since the TD-12 days. You just have to accept that they're different instruments overall, play to their strengths and try to avoid their weaknesses. I'd say trigger accuracy and the way the sounds respond to playing is always improving but you can't escape the pad feel.
There are some companies now selling converted low volume cymbals and the like that give you a closer rebound and feel to acoustics, but from what I've tried, it's still very different (much more "dead" to hit) and of course it doesn't change the fact they're only 2 zone etc. Ultimately, we're still a long way from getting them to be really close and it'll be personal as to whether you'd be happy with that or not.
Not Playing Rolands' Game...why would I buy any of the td -27 based NEW kits NOW...when we all know that in few months roland will bless us with the td-27 KVX variants
adding what modifications remainds a guessing game....but there is the third usb digital in....? so all these td -27 based NEW kits are already to be upgraded with a third digital piece... maybe a hi hat ? I think I'll just wait and try to try out some of the other new stuff while I wait for roland to wake up. AND where is that pearl/korg e/merge kit? is it ever coming out??
Hmm, I do wonder if they'll bother with a KVX for the TD-27 with the VAD lines being out - they're kind of like the next tiers for it in a way. But it remains to be seen, I suppose! Most people are hoping for a digital hat, yeah.
As for the eMerge - it's already out! There's shops in the UK and Europe with it in stock but from what little I've seen on US sites appears that it's currently unavailable? Maybe just on back order? Not 100% sure.
Rolands main problem: Lack of real samples. The td 50 sounds crap but: - With superior 3: The best kit in the world.
I would love to see Roland go down the fully sampled route but I think they'll be sticking with what they do for the time being. But you never know, they might surprise us!
@@TheeDrumWorkshop I was really disappointed when saw their launch videos in regard to the sounds, but I think it also depends on the player. When Ralph at Drum-Tec plays them they sound much better. I think sometimes the edrums get the blame when it's the player's dynamic range or technique that means the module's sounds come across as one dimensional. Although I totally agree with the original post. This (or TD50) with a VST would probably be amazing!
@@johnplayse-drums2905 Yeah, I agree there - the player has a huge part in it. Also, badly set up triggers for their play style. A lot of people set their dynamic range up too small on eDrums and it makes them prone to machine gunning and things like that.
@@williamperri3437 I'd say it took me a similar amount of time - within a week or so I had useable sounds but they were an ongoing process and didn't become really good until at least a few more months. I listened back to the first kit I made that I thought was good at the time and was horrified 😅
I was playing the td50 today at the store and it's ok, but it didn't blow me away, sound wise.
For the high price, it should be far more impressive.
Does playing on it still feel like hitting a trampoline ? Do the cymbals still feel like crashing a rubber plate? If yes, then I wont use electronic kits. The feel has always been the issue for me, and yes it matters.
im actually kinda mad because i literally changed all my pdx8 pads to pdx100 last month and now i kinda want the vad pads but the shallow ones
Ahh how annoying! I think it's still going to be a little while before those pads are available without the full kit so hopefully that gives you time to save!
@@TheeDrumWorkshop i checked it and a shop in my country says "shiping time 7 to 10th february" but thats not an argument they could put it as a placeholder or they would just shift the date every two weeks. and i will stay with the pdx100 they are okay pads and im one of the few drummers that have a really small guest room in my flat so full kit would be an overkill, still makes me a bit mad lol.
An example of a market leader moving slowly and letting others innovate before claiming it was *their* idea. I hope that this doesn't deal ATV a death blow.
Yeah, might be the case! I hope it isn't too, would be a real shame to lose a company that have done a fair amount of good in the industry in a short time. Thanks for watching!
well，if you have experience in DIY e drums you might find out that a drum shell bigger than 10 inches will produce sound itself no matter what head you using but plastic shells like pd128 don't have that issue and me myself I like the design of roland's pad.
Yeah, you do tend to find you need to take measures to dampen the resonance of the pads. Usually a mesh head on the bottom helps, but sometimes you need more dampening on the shell itself, true. And of course, to each their own - Roland's pads are great imo!
Proof that everyone wins with a freemarket and honest competition.
😅
i think they made the full sized pads now and made the 27 module to chomp more of the market before they announce td60 in 2 years probably (hopefully with the awaited digital hihat) they even could push the td60 further away on timeline because they found the opportunity to sell this kits with a bit of a new module.
Yeah, they definitely knew they'd take a large portion of the market with this kit! I think the reality is that the flagships don't sell all that many units so these are the kits that actually make the bulk of the money for them! Wouldn't surprise me to see them stretch this generation out as long as possible.
@@TheeDrumWorkshop roland will stretch td50 (and td50 mini version td27) till anyone else doesnt make anything better than this modules and i guess it wont happen, until mimic pro 2 comes out and mimic one goes to reasonable price ranche or like a mini version of it. that can be even 5 years from now.
I hope they don't stop making small pads. I prefer smaller pads for a number of reasons
Yeah, I use some pads for particular purposes and it wouldn't make sense to completely stop making them! What are your main reasons for preferring them?
@@TheeDrumWorkshop more efficient playing- I don't have to move my body as much to reach all the pads. This means I can play quicker, use less energy, and less contortion of the body, which will also result in better posture, less aches etc. Also I can add a lot more pads/voices while still being able to reach them all comfortably. Another reason is being able to more easily move the pads to positions that makes more sense ergonomically. Another would be it takes up much less space in my room, and can be transported easier. I'm fine with those who want their edrums to be a replica of acoustic drums, but for me and some others, is rather take advantage of the fact we are no longer bound by acoustic drums limitations, and treat edrums as a completely new and revolutionary way to play drums
@@breezyamar Yeah, they're all good reasons! I touched on a few of those in another video about why A2E conversions are popular and I totally understand why these advantages far outweigh the aesthetics for a lot of drummers! I have a couple of small pads that I use for similar reasons - I can get a shallow 10" pad into a tight space but still have a good sized playing surface that just wouldn't be possible with an acoustic drum.
There definitely seems to be 2 main trains of thought in the eDrum world between those like you who prefer them to be their own entity and those who just want quiet acoustic drums.
Let's see if companies like tama, dw, ect. Jump into the ekit market. That will tell you if theres a real push and fashion going to electric. I still believe drums going full on electric is the future of drumming. Price needs to come way down with more competition. People still get sticker shock.
Very true! I imagine most have been wary since the failure of eDrums following on from the 80s, but I imagine some will be keen to jump in if it becomes obvious that the industry is ready to embrace it more fully! Good point about the prices!
What about Efnote stealing the best idea’s from ATV and comes with a lot of series of new electronic drums...will they be good?
EFNote was founded by ex-ATV (and Roland before that, I think) staff, so I suppose it's not quite stealing! 😅 It sounds ok (there's a limited sample pool, from what I can tell, but it doesn't sound bad by any stretch), and I like how the kit looks, but I can't really comment more than that without trying one out.
@@TheeDrumWorkshop ok, but how’s atv doing now? Is the company almost broke?
The US division has gone, went bankrupt I believe. The Japan and Europe arms are still operating, though I don't know exactly to what capacity.
What brand has the best sounding electronic drum set in 2020 ? I don't care about a million odd sounds, I just want real drum sounds for recording. and of course it would be nice if it felt like real drums to play. it seems like allot of people think the Pearl drums sound more realistic than the Roland. what do you think ? I want to buy a kit for practice and recording. I want the best I can get. thank you. * considering how long electronic drums have been manufactured, it makes me crazy that in 2020 there is still not a perfect electronic drum set. that sounds and feels 100% like real drums *
Sound is very subjective but personally I think you get the "best sounds" with the Pearl Mimic Pro. It's basically a VST in a box with aot of flexibility so it's difficult to argue that others can do "acoustic" sounds better. You can get great results from importing into a 2box module and maybe even an Alesis Strike Pro, but you do not get the same level of control as the room mics etc will be "baked in" to the samples. Depends on what you need though.
Or a Roland module paired with a VST can do all that too if you're happy to involve a computer. If it's only for recording, not gigs, it's a very useful and cost-effective setup (as long as you already have a capable computer to run the VST on). You wouldn't even need a new Roland module, second hand previous generation will work great for that application.
Just realised my answer was only about the modules. If you're talking all-in-one solution with a kit too, it gets a bit more complicated.
Whats yamaha up 2 i hav dtx3 i got bak in day brand new .i c no mor satelite speakers jus amps .im catchn up now 2 new stuff lookn for speakers i hav ms50dr n 2 sat spkkrs.i wan add 2 mor sat,spek.to face away
There will always be people who just go for the top branded gear without checking what else is out there. If you use e drums for gigging then you will know what is available and the best, if you just practice at home then Roland are ok, if you gig then NO, the sounds and poor samples make it no good unless you want to carry a laptop with you with VST software .Roland make there kits sound awesome at shows but that is only due to the sound setup behind them most people think its all down to the kit. Wrong. The multi sampled modules are and have been the way to go for a few years now, Starting with the 2box Drumit5 and now the Mimic Pro and I suppose the Alesis Strike but they are only just a notch above Roland's when it comes to sample size and quality a 200mb kit limit when most single instrument samples on the other two are close to that size, The main thing is if your going to go or wanting to go live with Edrums then any thing from 2 to 5k is needed for a decent sound setup, that includes your personal monitoring system . This is from experience. The bottom line is if your sat at home or in a studio recording then any Edrum with midi in and out will suffice , nearly all Edrums with the cheaper exceptions sound the same out of decent head phones.
Hmm, I agree to an extent - though I'd say that even the best sounding modules will sound rubbish through bad/underpowered amplification. As you say, it's the unfortunate reality of an electronic kit - an acoustic kit gets the air moving itself for the sound, if you want to replicate this with electronics, you need to move that air yourself with a good speaker system! I agree though that the sample-based modules will sound more passable on less-than-stellar PA speakers than Roland's kits - it seems you really have to work to the sounds themselves with Roland's particular sound character.
Corporate Bast***S. The Roland BT-1 is a minor variation of what I developed and presented top them in Australia in 1994 called the Rimstick.....they waited 14 years and then patented the BT-1. Their corporate mindset leaves them a soft underbelly - I hope the high quality smaller companies rip chunks out of "their" space!!
Well they will....Roland's business model has relied on brick and mortar stores pushing Roland and Yamaha.
that advantage is gradually losing it's power. However, what really sells the kit is playing the kit. So they will continue to have an edge because customers can actually go into a store and play the kit.
one word you forgot to mention...SIMMONS ...the true innovators of electronic drums. Without the UK company Simmons , Roland might not have become involved. Their V-drums user interface styling, is a direct nod to the Simmons SDX operating system. The SDX had 14 Zone intelligent inputs and 2 non-positional inputs for the Rim and Kick drum. All of the 14 Zone Intelligent inputs were controlled with FSR pads , removing false triggering entirely. SDX was a sampler with synth like parameters to seriously control the way sounds played back. So Roland DID NOT invent positional triggering SIMMONS DID...and they did this in ...1987. So respect where it is due. As for it being an exciting time for e-drums...these instruments are approximating acoustic kits, in the same way that a basic electric piano attempts to replace an acoustic piano. So what would you rather have... a piano... or an amazing synth / sampler ? By this I mean something capable of sounding both nothing like a piano...and also just like a piano. These so called 'electronic' kits seem to be more interested in cloning and replacing something which already exists, & this is the very opposite of creativity IMO. It's an interesting challenge of course, but for me the acoustic drums still out-perform these kits when they attempt to be 'acoustic-like'. I just wish they would offer the potential to create utterly new sounds...but maybe the drummer needs to stay in his box, where the rest of the band think he belongs ?.
You're right, I need to go back and do some digging on the history of the Simmons product line, I don't know nearly enough about them! My reference to the positional sensing was more about how Roland's specific one works and how they held the patent for that style, as opposed to being the only possible way of doing it. I'm aware there's a few other approaches to making it work. The tech in the Simmons kits sounds very impressive and what a shame we've lost a lot of that along the way, there's surely so much that could be done with it all nowadays.
Yeah, I see your points on the sound design side of things and I agree to some extent. In a strange twist of fate, Roland is currently the one company that allows you to customise the sounds the most out of the "acoustic-alike" brands. I've been very interested in things like the Nord Drum 3 in the past from the proper synthesizing angle but haven't yet found a reason to fully delve in to that. I suppose there's 2 brands of eDrummer around currently - those who want acoustics-but-quiet and those who would rather them be their own thing with different potential. Might be a worthy video idea.
@@TheeDrumWorkshop I think the majority of people use these e-kits for home practice...and gig with an acoustic...because the next issue presented is amplification...and from cymbals to serious 'bottom end' is a big ask and requires a full PA. So once you mix your kit at home on your cans or small speaker rig, then you present it on a gig, & unless you have a really good sound guy [most pub bands don't due to costs] , then you have little idea of how the mix you created at home, will cope throughout the evening as the guitars progressively increase their volume. I trust an acoustic because I can immediately compensate by reducing or increasing my own level via technique...and as we know...with electronics, you can turn up the whole kit...but will the frequencies represented in the PA still sound well balanced ? ..it's a very complex thing to amplify a drum kit, especially if you have limited outputs / channels and no sound guy. I enjoy your videos though, so keep it up. cheers.
I think you're right, most of this direction is definitely being dictated by people wanting or needing quiet practice drums as opposed to different instruments. And yeah, I know that issue all too well live. Fortunately the band I'm currently in don't suffer this issue, but it's a real one that is difficult to overcome and as you say, an acoustic might be more suited to that!
Glad you're enjoying the videos, cheers for watching!
Even though 'VAD' is nothing new (sounds like some kind of std) but because it's Roland and Roland is probably the first thing you think of when it comes to edrums even if you are not into edrums and are considering a transition from acoustic to electric or just considering edrums chances are this looks revolutionary to you...*exhale* It seems like Roland just let everyone else do the innovating/providing for the consumer and then just come out with the same thing and market it as their own. Their digital stuff seemed like a thing that they would keep going with but 4 years past and they have done nothing to at least give us a digital HH (TD60 now no doubt) and I still don't know what those white buttons are for and why I have an extra USB port...honestly, TD50 was such a waste of a name. Should have just been an upgrade pack but need to resell the same kit minus a tom and for more with...worse sound? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I miss my TD30 sounds...
Yeah, it definitely feels that way this time round with the VAD pads. I've been wondering about the digital pads for some time - maybe they're trying to keep them a slow release so that over time people build them up? If they came out fully digital only they might have lost a lot of people, but if they only do the important parts first then trickle the rest out, maybe it makes it more palatable? I don't know tbh, just thinking out loud haha! Either way, I hope they do a digital hi hat eventually!
Oh and it's a shame you miss the 30 sounds compared to the 50. Would you consider going back?
@@TheeDrumWorkshop Well since I sold my TD30 years ago, probably not as I also have a Mimic Pro I finally picked up for a good price after looking for one for a while. I just feel there were more usable kits vs TD50 out of the box BUT the ride on the TD30 was so unresponsive. The TD50 ride was the best thing and certainly have no regrets there Sold all my TD30KV stuff but kept the TD50 Pack. I can always trigger SD3 with the TD50 which works really well.
Ahh, if you've a Mimic too then you're in good stead for great sounds! You can get great sounds out of the 50 but it does take a lot of work, unfortunately. The digital pads are great though, eh?
And true, Roland + VST is a fantastic combination.
have to say I don't like the feel when the sensor cone is in the middle of the drum. It doesn't feel natural. A real drum does have
anything in the middle of the drum. Having the cone on the sides, IMO, is much better
Understandable! Is it more to do with the hot spot effect or just literally the physical cone being there? I don't think I've ever felt quite enough of a difference in feel other than the hot spot problem myself.
Digital drums are as you said are the best there are. From my point of view I agree, and I think that is what Roland is building their future on. There is always a market for a better mouse trap and they have got it. I have owned and played various edrums over the last 20 years which include an A2E with a TD8, and Yamaha drums. I have also played a variety of other edrums but never found they could out perform Roland. I hate their pricing but if you want the best you have to pay.
Yeah, it's really difficult to go back to other pads after the digital ones. Sometimes I think I've nailed the response on the Mimic then I go back over to the 50 and the snare just feels... right. It's hard to put into words but it just out-performs everything, as you say! Thanks for watching!
I'm just waiting for the all digtial roland TD-70. I know it is coming and it will have a vst built in and nothing currently available will compare ...so if old age or COVID-19 dosen't kill me I will be getting the td -70 as soon as it is released.I'm sure this kit is already built and ready to go but of course roland is just sitting on it until they sell out of the old td-50 's or trick drummers into settling for the bargain $3,000 "NEW TD- 27" and it's variants which are just more recycled parts and dated sound samples from the retro- roland school of bad business ideas...so TD-70...maybe SUMMER NAMM? and ...I mean this one.. not 2023.
I think an all-digital module is very likely down the line. But I'm not sure if I agree about the in-built VST. Roland have invested a large amount of time and branding on their "modelling" approach, I don't think they'll ditch that any time soon! Also not sure if it'll be that soon, but who knows!
who wouldn't want their e-drums to look like a real acoustic kit, especially if you play live.
Hmm, it's always gonna come down to personal taste but I do think a large majority of people agree that an acoustic-sized kit looks better on stage. I think it's mostly just due to what we're used to but I'm sure a few other factors are at play!
I have played various acoustic kits an e-kits.
I own and use an e-kit, including drum pad machines (presently 4).
It is said that "form follows function" unless it's an e-kit!
Whatever the future holds for e-kits:
I just don' t see the point in making e-kits look like acoustic kits. E-kits are not acoustic kits, neither should they pretend to be.
E-kits should be (an look) unique, not a copy an acoustic kit.
Acoustic kits don't pretend to be e-kits.
So, let's keep the separation, an never the twain, shall meet!
I don't inherently disagree with you but the acoustic-alike caters to a different market than those who want eDrums that are distinct instruments. There's crossover but it's akin to the digital piano/synthesiser market - there's room for both, in my opinion! I did a video recently on this topic, check it out if you haven't seen it :) Thanks for taking the time to comment!
I really like the channel but the zooming in and out has to go.
Really??? You got a badge officer??? Who made you lukes personal media advisor,..
Boy wish we could all look into your shit and blast it on the interwebs...be a good person...if you have an issue then present it better how about...
Luke, loving the videos...but as an aside the zooming kind of bothered me a little..just wanted to let you know in case you wanted to fix it or something like that...not ...shits gotta go man ...
All RUclips videos must stand on the content and these do in spades - thanks Luke. I focus on content that is why I am here. I have edited videos for years so I have a background to leave my comment. Zooming in and out is distracting. Luke produces solid content end of story.