Seiðr Magic and Gender
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- Опубликовано: 5 дек 2018
- There was no worse accusation for a Norse man than feminine behavior, and that included using the magic known as seiðr. This video looks at what this magic was and how it developed these strong associations with gender. Previous video with related information: • The Vǫlva (Norse Seere...
Dr. Jackson Crawford is Instructor of Nordic Studies and Nordic Program Coordinator at the University of Colorado Boulder (formerly UC Berkeley and UCLA). He is a historical linguist and an experienced teacher of Old Norse, Modern Icelandic, and Norwegian.
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Jackson Crawford’s translation of The Saga of the Volsungs with The Saga of Ragnar Lothbrok: www.amazon.com/gp/product/162...
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Dude I just spent 12 hours yesterday researching the word 'seidr' and 'heidr' thanks for confirming this stuff for me. Your timing is divine.
When you like the video during the intro because you know it will be a great video.
Kirsty Ferguson First thing I do when watching his videos is like the video, in case I forget to later.
Me, too.
Content is always golden hey 😃
The first half of the video really drove home to me how terrifyingly powerful Odin is. Really interesting to gain insight and ancient magic and old Norse culture, thank you!
Freyja taught Odin seidr in exchange for the wisdom of the runes. She was one powerful goddess as he was a powerful god.
@@victoriaedwards6395 *is
Odin IS NOT real
You should do a breakdown of the concept of ergi. There's no direct correlation to English so it would be good to discuss. Also, side note, it actually comes up in the netflix show Norsemen which is a pretty hilarious take to be honest if you haven't seen it yet
Sophia Neilsson I wouldn’t bet on him ever watching it.
Gísli Brynjólfsson I wouldn’t really call it historically accurate, but I guess compared to the alternatives, it’s slightly better.
@@user-bl3fo7dz3o It's got more than 2 actual scandis in it so it's a step up from Vikings lol
Sophia Neilsson True
Never seen it if it’s comedy I’ll prob never see it
You are by far, the best source for this information I have ever found. Considering the way people like to rewrite history to suite their interests, it's interesting to learn about such an old and overlooked source of information. These sorts of overlooked resources are usually frustratingly limited to people with the background knowledge for interpreting the language and meaning.
Please don't ever stop.
Thank you for this video, it was very interesting :) Seiðr being considered a magical practice for women might have come from the use of the distaff as an object also used in magical practice and how it was used - the sexual conotations implicit in the form of the object itself. In Iceland there was a clear difference between Galdr and Seiðr. Galdr being practiced by men and being a practice more "honourable" than Seiðr. However, Galdr was one of the most important practices within Seiðr itself, as we can see in older poems and Scandinavian Folklore, including in Saami folklore, where the use of Song/Speech in most cases is the "key" factor in Seiðr, as in the examples we have in magical songs performed before the actual activity of Seiðr (varðlokkur).
Sounds like the sexual act of asphyxiation during sex or climax.
hahah have you ever seen the seiðrstaffs that have been found?!
Thin cold metal!
These staffs were never used in a way you are fantasising about
Yep I do practice both I love your videos as well
Heyo, swede here. I could be wrong, but as far as I know both galdr and seidr was, at least in the beginning before odin gained the vanirs knowledge, only used by the female vanirs. Galdr is just a singing magic, and I'm kinda super sure it wasn't a male magic.
@@ZiaElohka It's more to the shape of distaff that look like phallus. Look at distaff in history. In Poland distaff was a symbol of womenhood richly decorated and carved especially XIX c one's and were given to women by groom and specially made for her by master craftsmen as status symbol. I don't know how it was done Iron age Scandinavia but what I learn there were status symbols too. Women who poorly spin and sew was not good candidate for wife and had hard time to found husband.
5:36 if you're also translating ergi as sexual passivity, wouldn't that mean that the Norse had a similar veiw of homosexuality as the greco-romans, that being the active partner is okay but that the passive partner is being unmanly by acting in the role of a woman? So the best one word translation of argr would be "bottom", just with a footnote about how it's an insult and associated with general unmanliness.
Also I find it very interesting that Odin, the king of the gods, practices seidr. It's a character flaw, but it's not bad enough to make him unworthy of worship or leadership. I feel like that gives the most interesting implications about gender conconformity in the Norse world. Like they have these gender norms, but the transgression of these norms is more tolerated.
Honestly it makes more sense that sexual passivity means some sort of celibacy than “bottom”.
There is nothing to suggest seidr implied sexual activity.
excellent video. I would love to know a link to the dicription of the Siethers clothing from Eric The Reds Saga.
I know you don’t have the time to answer, so hopefully some other student of Norse myth sees this and answers my question. So I believe in one video about the Norns you mention that the Norse word for fate (“auðna/auðr”) is possibly derived from an older word that has to do with weaving. Now, in this video you mention that seiðr might have something to do with divining fate. Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but traditionally weaving is seen as being an exclusively feminine activity. Usually, only women would weave clothes. Perhaps this contributes to the perception of seiðr as being feminine, because it has to do with weaving?
At an exhibition I visited at the British Museum about Vikings, there were suggestions that some magical practices may have involved spooling out thread, or yarn - maybe not too far from the weaving idea you mention. I will have to rely on someone more familiar with the topic to wade in here though too, since I can't cite or remember specifically what the evidence was that the British Museum were basing this idea on.
The Norns are said to be the weavers of fate and it is said in some of the sagas that the good Norns wove good fate for men whilst the bad Norns wove less fortunate fates. The Norns here most likely are not the three that dwell beside the Well of Urd (fate) namely Urd, Verdandi and Skuld but the nameless others that are often referred to. The subject is too complex to go in full detail here and is a topic of it's own.
@@SmevMevSimilar experience in a bookstore. Made a stray comment about certain ancient traditions, and the owner's wife handed me a book with a picture of a woman having spun a ball of yarn from which she was biting off the thread that was still wound on the spindle. The imagery was clearly alluding to an infant and its umbilical cord. She was Swedish, by the way.
colin Paterson Thanks for the reply, but if I remember correctly, Norns in the Norse tradition didn’t weave the fates of men. To quote from (can’t remember the poem’s name) they “...skáru á skíði...” which means “cut into wood.” Though I believe the concept of these “Fates” might at once have had a connection with weaving in ages long before the Viking Age (perhaps even before the development of Proto-Norse or Proto-Germanic), so your argument does have some truth to it. However, I think the image of the weaving Norns was introduced during the 19th century when people tried to make the - previously deemed barbaric - Norse myths seem more like the much more “civilized” Greek and Roman myths by borrowing from the Greek traditions of Fates weaving the destinies of men.
@@user-bl3fo7dz3o I would love to just sit and hear you talk about all this.
Yay!!!! Thank you Dr. Crawford!!! I'm super excited to listen to this :D
Are there grounds for us to think that the Old Norse society conceived of sex purely as something men do to women, while the woman is simply doing nothing?
hey, thank you for this video!! it was super interesting, and i was pleasantly surprised to hear about tacitus on The Norse Channel. i'm going for a classics minor, so this was cool to hear about. keep doing what you're doing :)
Ive been trying to find information of the seiðmaðr. 🖤 As a Pagan Witch. Thank you. 🖤
I’ve been waiting for a crow or two to make an appearance in the background. Very nice video on a subject of which I was unaware.
Also would you ever do a video on your compilation of Stetsons?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. It was very informative and very interesting. I will be watching your other videos.
Very interesting and enlightening video, it helped confirm my studies... thank you dr Crawford
Seiðr brought to mind the Finnish word seita for Sami holy place, but looking up the word in Sami languages (~siedi) the connection doesn't seem as close. But as witchcraft has been associated to Sami, it would be interesting to know how is it different. I should probably peek into Sirpa Aalto's dissertation and educate myself.
Regarding the last words in the video, recent research to gendered work in the 1600's and so on have shown that at least in Sweden the division was not as clear cut as has been thought so it is worth considering that the sagas might also be describing the ideal as opposed to actual reality.
The reference to women/indoor and men/outdoor is specifically mentioned in Xenophon's Gynokologia (on the raising of women) on how things worked for him in ancient Athens. But, clearly Artemis or the Maenads point to women who were of the outdoors.
I know the Finnish word "noita" (which nowadays seems to be usurping words for other magical specializations) was definitely female-gendered. I was told it was the term for "household magic" (which was later given a very bad context of "evil" -- a non-Finnish concept--in Christian times). However, it seems to have originally involved ecstatic states as well as singing/chanting. My family (from Ostrobothnia) carried some of these traditions in secret, and I was told (even in the 1950s/60s) never to talk about it, as it could endanger you. Both males and females in my family were trained in various traditions, so I have a hard time sorting out if there was actual gendering of the practices.
@@janebeckman3431 Actually, "noita" is not specifically female-gendered. While it certainly carries female connotations due to modern association of witches with women, it can be used for both men and women. In Finland, witchcraft was not deemed as a particularly female practice, and most people condemned of wichcraft were actually men. I guess echoes of it can be seen in "Kalevala", where pretty much every hero is a magician of sorts.
@Gísli Brynjólfsson The Finnish word for master bricklayer is "muurarimestari", so yes, it is remarkably similar.
Gísli Brynjólfsson In German that would be the 'Maurermeister'!
Is the Volva's scaffold a raised platform, seat (throne) or maybe a gallows?
A platform makes me think of Native American and Asian funeral platforms. The scaffolding as a gallows reminiscent of Odinn hanging on Yggdrassil.
I believe he touches on this subject in another of his videos. Either another one on Seiðr or the one about Ibn Fadlan's account of encountering "Vikings"/Rus. Sorry I don't recall the exact one off-hand.
He mentions it in "The Vǫlva (Norse Seeress) and Seiðr" Link to timestamp where he mentions it: ruclips.net/video/pPPWde7SVk0/видео.html
In "The Viking Funeral Ibn Fadlan Saw" he relates Ibn Fadlan's account of the funeral he saw, which includes a door frame that was built and the slave that volunteered to "go with" the dead chieftan and she was lifted up & over the door frame as she recited the famous "Viking Prayer" used in The 13th Warrior movie.
ruclips.net/video/4-74nZZkAaY/видео.html
I wasn’t sure what he meant by scaffold either, I too thought of Native American funeral platforms. But I have heard of the Volva and her high seat, I always assumed it was the chieftains seat or something like that, a “throne” type of seat over a legitimate raised platform.
Yes I agree like a "birthing box" in kemetic hieroglyphics
I think it'd be interesting to have more videos on gender roles in Old Norse society. I've never really grasped the whole idea of why ancient gender roles are so stark, and it is always an interesting conversation to have. Assuming everyone in the conversation can be civil, of course.
Atlas Don’t worry, channels like these are some of the few places on the Internet where the corruption of ignorance has yet to strike.
Women could own property as I read it, but usually couldn't get into politics. At the same time, men didn't want to do magic. But all in all, I think what was and was not for each gender's group had more to do with shaming and bias, that actual ability.
@Gisli Brynjolfsson Thats not really true, but in fact a more wishful thinking. Vikings were probably just as bad as christians, but that their patriarchal structure differed in some ways.
@Gisli Brynjolfsson Gender roles were extremely strict in Norse society. There was nothing "progressive" in the modern sense about it.
In a time where men and women were largely valuable for their sex-specific qualities (ie, men were physically stronger and thus needed to hunt and defend thru combat, and women were prized for their reproductive ability), it is no question why strict gender-roles existed. This is not unique to Old Norse society and is not really as complex or mysterious as some contemporary, agenda-driven scholars suggest
I fully realize that movies and television plotsre: Vikings are many times totally shifted from the Sources. With that said how accurate was the role of the "Seer" in the Vikings Series. Was that which he practiced Seidr or just Divination and was he too outwardly condemned but secretly sought after for his 'talents'?
Fantastic! Prof, you’re incredibly good! Cheers 🥂
Fascinating Fascinating Fascinating. Thank you
So... where does this leave the word "Erilaz", which I took to mean "Sorcerer", as used the song In Madijan by Heilung.
michael delano It has often been transcribed as “magician” but has been shown that the word is in actual fact an ablaut variant of “earl”.
So, Seithr is divination and transmigration of appearance, abilities, and/or powers...?
In Grimm's Fairy Tales (a compilation of German folk tales passed down through generations orally hundreds of years ago) the magic includes the heroine spinning gold from straw yet it is the little man Rumpelstiltskin who performs the task itself.
I forget which saga it comes from, but in Daniel McCoy's book The Viking Spirit he mentions that a man in combat who was targeted by seiðr felt his anus itch and nothing could stop it. McCoy cites this as evidence that seiðr is women's magic because the spirit penetrates through the anus and thus any man who practices or has seiðr practiced against him may be considered ergi.
That seems silly compared to another explanation by Irina Manea that men had to use their own strength and not supplement it with magic which would show weakness.
Is it possible to buy any of the sagas in book form in old norse?
Maybe at some point I'll be able to get your published works for my husband to read. He IS heathen and he likes having many translations of these texts because he learns something new from each one. Alas, earlier this year he had a stroke, and while it is only his balance that was affected (he can read and speak and all that; that was unaffected) he has not been able to return to work. So he'll be going on disability soon. Believe me, he would rather return to work but we're not sure if his balance will allow him to go back to construction work. Nevertheless, I am so appreciative of these videos and so very sorry I can't make a donation by Patreon. I'm the only one with an income in our household right now, but I would do it if I could. Sending much love and appreciation from over here in the Sunshine State!
Is it possible that the Roman and other accounts were overly influenced by the famous descriptions of the Delphic oracles?
It is possible, since many Roman descriptions of other cultures are very obviously put through a prism of their own worldview in one way or another. For example in one account they describe gauls as being naked, and fighting naked. Which isn't backed up by any other information we have. It shows how much they want to emphasize just how barbaric they think those tribes are, as opposed to their own culture. In general Roman historic sources should be taken with certain degree of scepticism since it appears that they were fond of "adjusting" the information to their liking. Doesn't mean we can't learn from it or use as source of information.
they were very similar in nature, but not in form
"Dark" and "light" is a Christian view of seidr (or world view in general). Magic just is. It's power/energy -- neither dark or light, good or evil.
Beautiful 😍 what's your favourite source of information about this topic?
Yah I think snorri's Christian views muddied the perspective here
@@mnemonyssprobably but if it weren't for Snorri, we wouldn't have any of it at all.
@@TheEnigmaticmuse you're right, wasn't implying not to read it, but discernment is needed.
eh, idk about that. There is definitely a sense of more “proper” magics and more “improper” magics.
I think its a bit presumptuous to assume there was no moral undertones to certain types and use cases of magic, although there are kinds that arent as morally charged either as well.
The magic that caused Fafnir to become a dragon from his greed and slaying of his father is probably not “neutral”. Its more likely to be a direct consequence of an evil act.
As a decendant of volvas on my (Finn-Swede) grandmother's side and rune-singers on my Finnish grandfather's side, I am so happy to have found your channel. I was raised on stories of the old traditions, mostly Finnish and Vanir. In Finnish tradition, there are so many different types of practitioners, and the types of Singers vary with what Words of Making they are taught. I hadn't realized the distinction of male/female magic, though I knew volvas were female. It's hard for me to sort out which came from what part of the family (I've been trying for decades), and your videos are helping.
Herodotus describes the Scythians as divining by means of braiding willow wands. He describes them giving oracular prophecy as they braid the three pieces of willow together. Interestingly enough he describes them as androgynous and says it’s a hereditary role amongst the Scythians. They were called enarees. It was an orgiastic cult dedicated to the snake legged goddess which is similar to the Greek notion of the έχιδνα or she viper. The Orphic fragments also describe a Scythian priestess called σκυθα who had scales tattooed from breast to thigh. The Etruscans, latins and probably the Phrygians and Thracians also practiced oracular prophecy and it was also a sexual rite.
The Anarya of the Scythians were also males who wore women’s clothes and were considered to have changed their gender which as echos of the cult of kybele. So the Germanic culture doesn’t seem unique in seeing this art as a feminine practice. A very fascinating subject indeed. Thanks for sharing your knowledge on the subject.
Your new hat is beautiful
I think all his hats are pretty cool.
Þin nīw hæt is scīene
Would you please translate Ynglingatal? Not the Yngling Saga, but its predecessor which Snorri based his work on...
I've been studying the Scythians a lot lately, along with apocryphal texts and Norse lore. In the Book of Jasher and in the Norse lore, I found stories I guess would fall into the category of necromancy. After Mimir was beheaded by the Vanir, Odin soaked his head in herbs, oil and salt. This allowed him to ask Mimir questions. In the book of Jasher, Jacob's uncle/father in law had similar heads in his home he used for divination. I feel this is one of the reasons this book was left out of the canon. The Scythians were called noble savages and barbarians which has a modern context of warlike, but actually comes a latin root meaning bearded e.g barber. Though they were very capable warriors, even the women, they were said to be extremely cultured people. They would sell heads and human skin. I suspect they sold them for divination talismans and i suspect that practice was relatively common even though i haven't read of it elsewhere, except the two places I cited earlier.
The Scythians also had the Enaree. "They were born male, but wore women's clothing, performed women's jobs, spoke like women, and were believed by the Scythians to be inherently different from other males and that their androgyny was of divine origin; according to indigenous Scythian shamanic traditions, the Anarya were considered "transformed" shamans."
Extremely helpful in an area I'm studying.
Great video
I get the biggest kick out of getting to hear the birds hahaha. You have a video where a magpie had stolen you mic, and you show them at the end of the video. Seeing a magpie in real life has become somewhat of a bucket list item for me. My gramma had a painting of one in her house when I was a kid, and I was completely mesmerised by it. Anyway. Birds. haha
What is the etmyology of the word "fjölkyngi"?
is it possible that the L and the N were interchangable like F and V ?
I'm asking because today we call it Gand and not Gald
Dude, Óðinn is keeping his
-eyes- eye on you. You’re teaching everyone his secrets.
P.S. Where is Jeff the God of Biscuits and how do I join his cult?
Ah. A fellow Izzardist 😎
Noone knows Óðinn or his secrets haha
@@LightningStriker1 pssst... His biggest secret is that he doesn't exist....
Thanks 😎😎😎
Is there a potential connection between Odin and his 12 priests and Jesus are his disciples?
I'm no PhD but could there have been an association between the act of receiving divine insight/knowledge of the future and receiving in a more intimate context, as far as why seidr and women were so intrinsically intertwined?
Triangulating a bit with Western and Chinese occult systems, I would suggest that the reason those practices may be viewed as "passive" is because they involve inviting spirits to possess one and speak through one.
Generally with most magick, the theory is that there is a parallel plane or dimension (it has various names in different systems, it's called "the astral plane" in Western magick), which has denizens of its own, and the way to achieve magickal effects in this world is to somehow get the entities that have the magick power in that world to do one's bidding (by bargaining, cajoling, commanding, etc.). That would be the "male" way of doing magick; the "female" way, by contrast, would be inviting those entities to enter into your psyche and possess you, and let them speak through you. (Same sort of principle with the Greek oracles too - the oracle takes a "high seat," the god possesses her and speaks through her. The practice probably goes back to male and female styles of shamanism in the archaic Indo-European tribal context.)
This is what I've thought as well, and slayback98 also commented to that effect. There was probably a passive component to it that involved letting these powers inhabit you temporarily which would have been quite argi to the Norse people of the time.
This is a very insightful comment.
Thank you so much!!!!
So cool!
Dr. Crawford, as a modern Spa Kona, I would like to put forth a hypothesis regarding your ergi translation.
The major difference between what I do and what a Völva does, is that they can perform Trance Prophecy.
Trance prophecy is unique in that the Völva has to give in and allow a higher spirit to inhabit her body. During this process the Völva involved, takes a backseat in her own consciousness while a spirit (usually a god or goddess) takes over her body, can use it to walk around, or drink, or eat, or use the toilet, among other things. I know a Loki and friend of mine once had Loki "over" and he drank a bottle and a half of her good wine. Let me tell you she did not feel good the next day!
That is why modern Völva tend to never trance alone to make sure nothing happens to them while they are not in control of the body.
Thus I put forth the hypothesis that perhaps ergi isn't necessarily always sexual passivity but simply passivity itself. (The following is half joking:) I mean after all, come on what kind of " real man" let's some God take over his body? *Fake roll eyes *
But in all seriousness I think it shows a real sense of trust and acceptance of not only the natural world but of every spirit and soul's place in the cosmos. If I ever met a man who could be that open-minded and open souled, I think it would be a real treat to talk to him and interact with him.
But I suppose you shouldn't take my word on how attractive such a man would be. I, after all, think that metrosexuals are damn cute, and as we all know, a metrosexual is a guy who likes to groom and shave off certain parts of their body hair. And if that's not a modern definition for to feminine in most circles I don't know what is.
(Guys that are in touch with their feminine side are hot!)
Yes! This is why it is called ergi. Because a spirit or Deity can take over the body, can take over control. This is an extreme form of surrender and opposite to warrior ethics.
A modern Völva speaking here :)
These concepts seem very laden with cultureal values as they relate to gender identity. Let me explain. It sounds like the "sexual passivity" associated with "seidr" or nonmanual labor, i.e. using the mind, such as with charm, delusion, witchcraft, sorcery, is weighed against the more direct approach of using hard physical labor to get things done. This may also require occupational skill and knowledge not available to women. I think physical strength (brute force, perhaps) was more respected although the Old Norse were happy to have the desired outcome using either method it seems. Just my guess from watching this video.
I thought it could involve some sort of celibacy, however yours makes sense.
I am curious as to the volva/ vulva connection . And the word free dom I'm connecting it to freya Goddess connected to seidr keeping us bound under spells and not liberated
6:45
crazy stuff.. almost like a forbidden alchemical marriage..gender studies whoa..
4:22
So, one thing that was (oddly) not addressed here; if practicing seidr would be considered shameful for a man (ergi), then why was Odin not considered ergi for practicing it? This seems like a fundamental contradiction. Is it possible that this whole idea of the shameful passive "ergi" man was projected onto the mythology by the writers, who would have been influenced by christianity when writing centuries later?
I would say its a possibility we cannot ignore. However, I do not think vikings were better than christians in terms of morals. Christians were hostile towards women, but so were the vikings when they attacked and raided several villages.
What is the norse term for "magical lore" he mentions around 7m?
I believe it's the one he explains at 04:48.
@@Reginmund Thanks!
What did the Vikings think of celibacy? It was common for shamans among other Indo-European groups to be celibate -- at least for a short while -- sometimes longer. Even today where testosterone levels are much lower, some "manly men" look down on celibate men but honor chastity in women.
There’s a difference between chaste and celibate. Celibacy is an evil practice that promotes sterility. Chastity it is simply not having sex with people you aren’t supposed to.!
Probable caws for a murder (of crows)
So, could Odin be accused of ergi for his use of seidr?
wasnt he? didnt loki mock him for it in one of the stories?
Definitely. Odin was exiled from Asgard for 9 years for his practice of Seidr.
@@othinnfolk6751 I see! I remember something about that. Do you remember the name of this story or what's the source?
Is (male) homosexuality itself condemned by Norse society/culture, or only being the passive/receiving end? As far as I've understood it seems like in most of pre-Christian Europe (at least in Greece and Rome) it was acceptable to have sex with men, but not to be penetrated and 'taking the female role'.
Right. Homosexual behavior was often acceptable within certain parameters to varying degrees in Southern Europe and most of the world, however, from reading it seems that far northern Europe and west of the Urals the cultures were thoroughly against any same-sex intimacy. Although among the Vikings, being the penetrant in rear intercourse may have been excused when it was meant to degrade the male recipient, such as a prisoner or captive of war. However, that's only speculation.
Seid was see bad for men maybe fact of the shamanic root. The term "riden" or to be submissive to spirits. Other term in shamanic work is you "become the horse". Trance work would seem to them as being controlled, and being a man you must always be in control. Wasn't it ok for a man in ancient times to participate in homosexuality as long as the he was the dominant persons? Correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks for all you do.
slayback98 I believe that was in the Greek and a Roman traditions, but Old Norse culture was (as best we can deduce) very homophobic.
WHY was the word for god and priest the same?
Sutorenja Both are from the same root word, meaning “god”, but either they were just homonyms (spelled the same way, but different meanings) or historians aren’t sure whether it should be interpreted as “priests” or “goddesses.” We can, after all, never truly know everything.
I suspect (this is a guess, not a fact) it's because priests were seen as a sort of mouthpiece for the god they represented, thus there was no meaningful distinction between the god and their priest. One might compare it to the concept of _yorimashi_ 憑坐 or _kamigakari_ 神懸り in Shinto (Japanese ethnic religion).
I think no sexual acts were (and are!) needed to practise Seiðr. It was seen unmanly because traditionally it had been practised my women for such a long time. Just like spinning, weaving or making cheese would be seen as unmanly.
Well it's because being manly meant taking action, and seidr meant avoiding action, being passive and hoping for something to happen. It's obvious why it was thought weak, tribes then couldn't afford to lose manpower to candle lighting, dancing muppets, they needed builders, farmers and warriors. Women could get away with it because giving birth was enough inherent value. Magic isn't real, so encouraging women to mess about with magic, indulging them, kept them away from real power. Plus sometimes they'd chance upon alchemy of value.
@@Jauhl1 Are there any examples in the saga's of men spinning?
I don't think so. So how can you say that the reaction to men practising seiðr was more extreme.
This whole sexual thing is just a fantasy. A male fantasy that is :D
@@maxdamagus You obviously don't know much about seiðr. If you did you wouldn't call it passive nor unreal.
You also have no idea about the role of women in the viking society, reducing them to childbearing machines.
What you write sounds like plain misogyny to me.
Zia Elohka Well, we can’t rule out the possibility that it might have had to do with sex. I mean, Jackson Crawford mentions that performing in the rituals is considered to be “ergi”, meaning something among the lines of homosexuality or (as he put it) sexual passivity, which is why it would have been considered such a taboo; Old Norse society was strictly homophobic. Simply writing it off as a male fantasy and ignoring it as a possibility, is just unhelpful and arrogant.
@@user-bl3fo7dz3o Being a coward was enough to be called ergi.
There is no *sexual* passivity in seiðr, but there is another form of passivity:
That of being possessed by a spirit or Deity.
This might make it unmanly in the eyes of some.
Though the saga's actually mention quite a lot of men practising it.
Hjallur is our name for an outhouse/keep
Given the association of seidr with fate or urd, the Norse concept of fate must have been deeply associated with female sexuality. I wonder then if male sexuality was, in a sense, an act which could win you favor with fate.
I wonder why the Norse people were against men practicing it if Odin practices it.
Odin is a very ambiguous and self-interested figure. He literally kills humans in order to have them be part of his army because he is fearful of his fate come Ragnarok (it is said he will die to Fenrir). So Norse people seemed to have worshipped/respected Odin for his power, not taken him as a moral paragon (unlike e.g. Thor maybe).
@@Dystisis that makes so much sense actually. I knew Odin did some bad stuff but I didn't think about that lol
As a Swedish seidrwoman I really do not feel that you are connected to What you are talking about. To actually do the practice of Seidr gives a deep feeling of Connection that the mind Can’t embrace. You know a lot of facts, that’s One perspective but … as a recommendation for your journey in this field I strongly would recommend that you start to practice What you talk about. That would give you deeper knowledge and great deapth. Wish you all the best putting your head under your arm and dive into the mystery of your knowledge. New adventures is waiting in the thread and let the Nornes weave. Drop everything you know and then talk to us. Hell!
Gender, or sex?
Killing people and weakening them with magic is pretty cowardly so it's easy to see why it's considered unmanly. Also with how much power women had in society from seidr it's not hard to see why they would encourage it to be woman only
I agree. There’s a weakness imo as a man in doing magic work. It seems subversive and secretive . As a man I feel being up front with grievances or confrontation with another men is our way. Our females are better equipped at doing the seidr that strengthens our families.
@@jaredbabin2356 What utter, nonsensical, mysogynistic dross. "Our females"! Good grief.
Magic is magic. It's not dependent on gender
@@jaredbabin2356 Stop with that sexist comment mate. It doesnt belong here even tho we are talking about a very patriarchal society.
I urge you to listen to History with Hilbert's video on ergi and homosexuality. He shows evidence - and I believe solid reasoning - that the negative view toward men practicing seigr (or however its spelled) only came about following Christian influence - yet previous to that it was a non-issue.
Sooooo, Thor is considered argr after wearing women's clothing when he went to the giants with Loki?
Might want to be cautious going out during thunderstorms after saying that lmao
First of all: All the sagas was written down in times, seidr and its culture was way long on the way downstairs. On top all the writings are strong influenced by upcoming christianity. I recomend to keep that two facts in mind, if you think, this is all "correct" in terms of "how it really was". Because its surely not.
Second: The word "ergi" means LOTS more than only "unmanly sexuality" ore something like this. The big theme hier is'nt "sexuality". Its first and foremost "DIRTYNESS". Not verry surprising to me, that mans, who simply use secret, hidden and on top dangerous methods of sorcery, maybe are quick accused of beeing "ergi", so in other words "dirty" and "unmanly". Especially in a society, that favourises the open warriormind for a mans way of living so strong. I think, thats the important cause of the idea "mans, who are doing seidr are 'not manly'". Its not (!) only about "homosexuality".
Third: Even in the verry reduced texts about this old cultures there are still enough hints, that a lot of man was practicing seidr. So the conclusion "seidr is a woman only thing" is wrong. On top nobody, really NOBODY knows exactly, what was going on in the older times, long bevor the end of the culture and the flooding over by christianity.
There are such a lot of possibilitys, how it really was, so nobody will ever be able to know nowadays. Its seductive to think "there are facts in the sagas and all this stuff - and thats enough to reconstruct". In my opinion: All we can say nowadays about man, practicing seidr in the ancient times (better: PARTS of the ancient times): Its highly likely, that they was not so respected, as woman. Because thats, what we can expect from a martial and warrior fixated society like that. And thats all. Every word more here is speculating. No problem by that - but call it what it is: speculative. Its not "factbased", because this handfull of sagas and stuff from later times cant provide enough real facts.
I don't know any 'homosexuals' who are cowardly or weak.
So basically, vikings were not better or more "progressive" than the christians in terms of sexuality and gender roles. Some people are assuming vikings to be more including, but based on what you have said (from this and other videos) I can think that maybe vikings were as bad as everyone else in Europe at the time. I am still not sure if they allowed women to be warriors (btw I know about the female warrior tombs which have been found, I am only discussing if vikings were rly that much better than christians in terms of gender roles etc). So maybe alot of people, especially in the fantasy genre in litterature and games/movies, need to take a bit more critical look at how they portray ancient nordic societies. V
Yet Loki switched gender , (and species! Great video...thanks.
sensed a little christian polution there. unfortunately most texts, like the havamal, sufered from that....
I'm early :)
I'm second early...
So incels are magic?
the Seiðr would teach their sons magic
Its not a woman practice ...its a quality capacity of the feminine. Men have a harder time to connect to the feminine but they can certainly do it
Seid was probably some kind of ritual sadomasochistic nastiness, with drugs and crossdressing and whatnot, which isn't quite compatible with the warrior code. That side of Odin has always been scary, perhaps even more scary than his god of warfare and violent death status. The subject matter itself -- removed from mythology and studied as a set of performative actions, on their own merit as sexual idiosyncrasies -- continues to frighten and repell people to this very day.
Also, I look forward to whatever is forthcoming on the characters Frode and Bodvar -- the shapeshifting brothers of doom -- from Hrolf Kraki's Saga.
Please cite your sorce. I've never read that in any of my research.
"Seid was probably some kind of ritual sadomasochistic nastiness, with drugs and crossdressing and whatnot".
No, that's just your own fantasies talking. The historical sources suggest nothing of the kind.
@@LarsPallesen Are you quite certain that you know enough about sadomasochism to say that?
"probably"