I am from the TWJKD lineage and as we are very different from what Inosanto teaches and Vunak. I like your approach to things. You don't take the most direct route, but if these were to land, they would definitely do damage. I am not into weapons, but also nice job on focusing on hurting the tool.
felicia felicity 😂 Exactly! I am sure he could do it! Here’s an interesting point about what I have shown: Some of what I taught in this app was shown to me by Mr. Vunak prior to the RAT program. So while some people may not like me showing this kind of information, I was shown some of it in the mid 1980’s. Heck, I can remember teaching at one of the Sierra Summit Seminars back in the late 1990’s. I remember teaching some “new stuff” to the guys at the camp. Later, they approached me privately and asked me where I had learned this stuff. I told them, “From Vu back in the 1980’s!” They couldn’t believe it. I told them, “Yeah, I wish he taught like this again.” So, I am confident Mr. Vunak could come up with an advance RAT program that covered counters or different things. And when I was vice-president of PFS, I asked him to make a program like this. He told me, “No.” So maybe this video and our talk will encourage him to do something like this. I know many people would be interested in something like that.
Valid points for the most part. However, in a clinch position, your opponent is not going to be just standing there with your hands on his neck trying to throw elbows, and most definitely won't start throwing anything until he has both hands controlling your head. A proper thai clinch has a lot of movement and unbalancing to it, and it's extremely difficult to set up blocks from that position. I'm usually dropping my shoulders and pulling you from one side to the other while attacking. Also, my grip is usually not directly on the neck, but rather gripping around the neck and head like holding a football, which makes it harder for the opponent to get his posture. This would certainly be effective in this type of situation, but if the guy grabs with both hands before he starts throwing elbows and is pulling you around, it's much more difficult to effectively block, especially knowing that knees can come in to play as well. Having said all of that, I'm not exactly a super experienced Muay Thai fighter, so there could be other considerations I'm not taking into account.
Helljumper91, I hear what you’re saying. But, I want you (and everyone else) to hear what I am saying: What I am showing in this video is an example of WHAT IS POSSIBLE during a clinch - regardless of whether it’s a Thai clinch, a wrestler’s clinch, a Dumog clinch or any other close quarter fighting method. This is all any instructor can do. (NOTE: Many assume when I’m showing these kinds of things that I am only referring to a Thai clinch. I am not. Many styles use a similar clinch.) Let me give you a couple of examples of what I mean: EXAMPLE ONE Take any martial arts instructor and have him or her demonstrate any technique. When they demonstrate the technique, their partner is standing there feeding a specific type of energy in slow motion so that the instructor can teach whatever he is teaching. So, the physical demonstration and the teaching ARE NOT realistic and can never be realistic without hurting their training partner. EXAMPLE TWO Take a look at Sifu Vunak’s instructionals, he does the same thing (where his training partners stand there and cooperate with him so that he can teach whatever he is focusing on in his instructional). So the issue is not whether or not a technique is realistic or can work in a real situation. The issue is whether or not the instruction was clearly presented. Does that make sense? Now for those who believe these could never work in a real situation, I have two comments: 1. You can say you don’t believe because you don’t have the experience I have with this topic. I have the experience of using these things in tons of sparring matches. And, I have done these things on numerous students of varying experience levels over my career of teaching seminars internationally. I was able to do these things because they had not seen them before and were caught off guard. 2. For those students who had seen these techniques before (or had experienced them from me), it was much harder for me to do them. So, like any other instructor/practitioner, I had to adapt and change my follow-ups at their attempts to control my neck or shoulder. Thanks for the dialogue!
Roy Harris thank you for the response. Please don't think I'm saying you don't know what you're talking about or something like that. Your credentials are certainly there and clearly, these techniques will work in these situations as described. I just wanted to point out to people that the clinch can be a much more dynamic and unpredictable position than it is usually displayed. Even in Vunak's own tapes he shows a more passive clinch, so I'm not just pointing to you specifically or saying that the position won't work or anything. I just like to point out that there's generally a bit more pressure on that situation. I'm by no means a pro or anything, but I do study various aspects of martial arts and am currently a 2 stripe blue belt in BJJ (as well as a novice kickboxer and a former TKD practitioner) so I'm not just an internet warrior who posts to make people look bad. I have respect for anyone who commits to any type of martial art or self defense program and I mean no disrespect at all when I mention things like this. I just like having a dialogue of technique with people to try to improve both my own game and the people I talk to. I wish more people would honestly, there's too much "lol that's garbage and will never work" on the internet.
if someone is approaching to attack me, seems to me because i can’t fight, i am going to let the attacker in and possible evade or get pushed. if i want to stop the attack as soon as possible, even before he strikes, or in any case, i am going to go for the head, actually i am going to go for an eye. if i can disable him momentarily by the eye injury, depending on how big he is, he’s done. when/if he goes to touch or briefly cover his eye, i am now either running away or further attacking his eyes and head. -i don’t to fight. if i am assaulted and cannot retreat…i want to take him out. what’s wrong with that? once i had an argument with my gf at night on miami beach. out of nowhere some guy comes flying through the air extended leg and foot leading as if to strike my head. he missed and lands, body down, in the sand. i am instant on top of him with my thumb in his eye threatening to rip it out. i let him up and he leaves. had he fought… out goes the eye. i don’t fight i want stop the threat, that means imo to stop the head. i’m going to evade as much as i can until i can make that eye strike. no?
You are correct! The R.A.T. program is not a self-defense program per se. It is a martial art on martial art kind of program. Also, because it waits for an attack (so the practitioner can put in a destruction), it is a little behind in time. So, while I enjoy my time training the RAT back in the late 1980’s through the late 1990’s, I moved onto some things that were more suited for my age and for the injuries I sustained along the way. The excerpts in this video was from a 3 hour long seminar I did in the Midwest. I taught it because many who attended the seminar had been practicing the R.A.T. Program for 5-15 years and we’re looking for something to add to it. So, I gave them some ideas to try out and see how they liked it ☺️
@@RoyHarris "I moved onto some things that were more suited for my age and for the injuries I sustained along the way." Yes, injuries and arthritis has really limited my ability to do most of the systems I used to spar in effectively. I can still use Vunak's system, but it hurts, especially when it rains. Most systems that require moving are painful.
Ronnie, thanks for writing! You say you don’t see RAT anywhere 🤔 Are you not familiar with destructions used to start the fight? Because if you had been, you would have understood the use of certain kicks from Savate used to counter the leg destructions. Also, are you not familiar with headbutts, knees and elbow? If you were familiar with them, you would have understood the “blocking” I taught as a means of neutralizing the elbow (something more taught within the RAT program) as well as the “countering” arm wrench that follows the block 😉 I think what you meant is that you don’t see the entire RAT program or the flashy straight blast. What I did at this short seminar was dissect the RAT into separate pieces, had the students focus on countering each piece and then put everything together at the end. But because you weren’t there, and probably haven’t bought the app, you didn’t see the entire RAT program. I wish I had 25-30 hours to show what this program entails. Unfortunately, this short video clip could not show everything. Good training to you!
@@RoyHarris The R.A.T. program to me seems very effective. However it is impressive to see a valid counter to that system. The Entry System is required for the straight blast to work, which is required for termination of the fight with headbutts, knees, and elbows. By fully dismantling the entry system the rest of the program becomes less effective. This does not mean that Vunak's system is useless because it still works as intended: * The system still offers a cheap counter to most untrained fighters, and a good amount of trained fighters that are not expecting it. * The system does not require a great amount of training time or precision. * The counters to the Vunak's fighting system appear to require a large amount of precision and training. * Few people I speak to today have heard about, or trained, in the the fighting system, so few people will be using it, and few people will train to counter it. * The speed of the system means that under pressure these counters could still fail. * Counters to this system make you very vulnerable in other ways. Most street fights involve very little kicking because fighters fear loosing their balance and being taken to the ground. * There were already counters from back when I sparred with combat veterans: shell up with a high guard, semi-crouch, rush, and low tackle to take the fight to the ground. That counter works against both Vunak's system and Eddie Quinn's system. All the above being said, it is a nice collection of techniques. Nice video.
Hamad, it is late April 2020 and I am in the process of updating all of my apps.i I should have the R.A.T. counters app for iOS and Android available by summer time.
@@RoyHarris Yes Sir. I purchased the app in the past but now Apple is saying it’s not available anymore. Now my app will only play the 1st portion. Really disappointed. Is there a way I could download the full program? I would even purchase a dvd to get this awesome program back. I’m more disappointed in the loss of the information than I am the money.
i like the tricky of the first move but there's a HUGE error. Turning the kick to all the way on the other side of the opponent is not smart at all. Doing that will definitely over rotate you, when you land you're trouble. Muay thai fighters take kicks to the leg MUCH harder than what that technique can generate. Circular to linear is good when you pick a safe vulnerable target, and is great for tricking opponent but sacrifices leverage for power. That technique alone, won't take down a fit fighter, and if you miss and landover rotated (which you will if you try to aim for the other side of the opponent) you land in a position with a huge disadvantage.
Thanks so much for your comments! Having practiced and trained these kicks well over 10,000 repetitions, and having sparred with several Thai fighters, I’ve done very well with them - in their limited use ☺️ One Thai fighter quit sparring after my heel struck his tibial nerve quite hard. He smiled and said, “That was interesting! I’ve never been hit there before. Did you say these kicks come from Savate? Hmmm, I’ll have to look into it.” Please keep in mind, this video displays a couple of minutes of a three hour seminar. So much more was taught than just the technical aspects. Thanks again for your comments! I appreciate them ☺️
@@RoyHarris That's a really good angle, thanks for letting me know, could probably say it's a hard risky move but when mastered it has good outcomes, glad you found a way to make it work!
@@lvl18abilities At first, the kicks were tricky and difficult. However, because they were unlike anything I had ever seen before, I stayed with it and kept practicing. I’m thankful I did because I have something unique ☺️ Thanks again for your comments!
Combat Sports & Fitness News, this video is more than just “countering the RAT”. Why do you ask? I ask because I’d like to know what the real question is as well as how you came to the conclusion that bad guys don’t use the RAT. There’s a lot I could write but I’d like to address your specific questions. Thanks 😁
The system is primarily a defensive fighting style, its entry system requires an attack to become effective. That being said a bad guy could prefer to use a ranged weapon for threat and attack, and have learned the R.A.T. system if their victim manages to close that range. A law enforcement officer might have to go hands on with a bad guy who could be using such a system, even if it is being used defensively, it still furthers the person's capacity to do harm later, at range, or with a different system or tool. The above being said I see very few people that know about the system, and even fewer that use the system. Aside from older veterans and older law enforcement officers few really know about the system. There could have been an argument that teaching a counter to the system would primarily favor criminals who would want to counter a system used by Law Enforcement Officers, but few officers know about or learn the system today. The system has not been a top Google search result when you search for "self defense". It is a system from the 80s, and while it is very good, it will never get as much attention as Krav Maga, Defense Lab, MMA, Boxing, BJJ, or any other of the popular systems that get typed into Google regularly.
interesting perspective, but as someone who has personally trained with vunak and done RAT for many years, this is not going to work. the clinch defense is good, but since we are talking about the RAT, we are assuming that the fighter has gotten a destruction on the hand or leg, and then applied a straight blast for forward pressure immediately after the pain has been delivered, that defense would be harder to apply. Also, the RAT you see in videos is the simplistic version, and is not necessarily meant to be applied the way u see vu doing it..he says in his videos that the RAT he demonstrates is "on a good day", and we train the incidentals, if your hand is in centerline, the attack wont go to the clinch, but to other arts dumog, savate etc. also, that fist kick looks nice, but if the fighter moves offline during your heel hook and applies a blast from an angle, very bad situation for you. nice video tho, good marketing got me to at least watch it :)
Robert Mitchel, thanks for writing! As someone who has also trained with Vunak (from 1987 to 2001) and done the RAT, I do not believe in the RAT as something that can be done by everyone on everyone or even on most people. While it CAN work if someone “feeds” their kicks and punches, I have seen its weaknesses. Additionally, all fighting methodologies have holes in them - even the RAT! Also, you can say all you want that these things won’t work.........but I made them work against several of my fellow PFS’ers back in the day 😉 I stopped using the straight blast for three reasons: 1. I developed arthritis in my hands. 2. Also, having straight blasted a ton of people during training, I observed that I usually hit my hands against the top and sides of their heads when they cowered. Couple this with my arthritis and you can see why I stopped using the blast. 3. Sifu Vunak did not tell everyone the full truth about the blast. Here it is: “The blast can be a highly effective tool in a fight. However, you can break your hand using it.” Sifu Paul broke his hands several times using it in a fight. I know this because I remember driving two hours to his house for a private lesson only to be greeted at the front door by Sifu in a cast. I saw this on three occasions. Having been the PFS Vice-President (from 1997 to 2001), and since Sifu’s senior instructors had been asking Sifu for some new and different for over a decade (and he had not given them anything new since the late 1989’s), I decided to share some new ideas with them from Boxe Française. And this is what you see in this video 😁
@@RoyHarris Take a look at The Approach by Eddie Quinn, it is simplified, and hand friendly, it is very similar to Vunak's system. The only thing I would really change is to borrow Vunak's limb destruction and blocking for the Entry System. Eddie Quinn's pressure system is basically a straight blast with hammer fist strikes to the face, head, neck, collar bone, and sternum from the dominant hand. The Approach's termination moves remove knee strikes and make headbutts a bonus material. Knee strikes do require more risk of lost balance and skill, but it provides more options. If the opponent has a knife and you don't: sweep and disengage so you can escape or get a weapon. A lot of systems say that you can fight someone with a knife, but the probability is fighting them will result in severe injury or death even with advanced training. Disclaimer: I am not an expert, none of my comments are legal or medical advice.
Jason, when the RAT program is initially presented to the general public, it is said to be a "self-defense" method. However, upon closer examination, it is found to be a martial art method designed to counter common martial art techniques - like a jab, cross, and rear leg round kick. (How many unskilled people do you know that can throw a solid jab, rear leg round kick, or even know what "angle one" is with a stick?) So, what I have shown is not a counter method to a self-defense system but rather a counter method to a martial art method. THAT is the difference! Thanks for writing 🙂
baldieman64, thanks for writing! Please show me where those checks work on a high percentage basis. I would love to see them work again and again. I’m sure you can show me a video where someone effectively does one of those checks once or twice during a kickboxing or mma match, but I’d like to see the same fighter use these checks again and again with great success. I’d also love to see the videos you’ve seen where what I’ve shown are not working. It’s one thing to have a strong opinion about something. It’s quite anther to use the words, “Have been proven to work.” So, please show me how you know this with absolute certainty. Thanks 😁😁😁
Nice try. So, you don’t have any specific videos that show where these kicks have been proven to work again and again by a specific fighter? That tells me it’s either a knee check that worked here and there (not again and again by the same fighter) or it’s just your opinion. I am ok with both. But, you still haven’t shown me any videos where the things I’ve shown have not worked. So, please show me those videos 😁
baldieman64, two things: 1. If you watched the video and actually knew the topic I was referring to, you’d know I wasn’t talking about leg checking. Everyone knows that leg checks ARE effective (but again, that’s not what I was referring to in this video). 2. I am still waiting for the videos that PROVE my stuff not working in the ring/cage. You either haven’t seen any videos on this topic or you don’t have any experience with the fakes, feints and set ups of Boxe Française Savate. So, any time you’d like to share those videos with me I’d love to see them. And just so you know, I have surprised quite a few amateur Thai boxers with these feints. After our sparring, they asked where I had learned these things and how was I performing it (i.e. they were open minded about other kicking styles and training methods). And just so you know, they did beat up my legs pretty bad.....but I did sweep them several times and kicked their calves numerous times 😁 So, I know from personal experience they work in sparring. Did they work all of the time? No. Nothing works all of the time. But, to those who were unfamiliar with the fakes, feints and set ups of Boxe Française Savate, they worked like a charm the first handful of times I used them. Food for thought 😁
You are winded just doing this in slow motion. Always easy to spot "instructor" who has never been in a real fight. Is your art the "tao of slow mo Jeet kune do"? Seriously, lose the ego and the spare tire, go train with Vu or Tom.
No confusion...he's winded. Keep doing your " proper breathing". The RAT was designed to explode inside punching range. These "counters" are clueless fluff. Keep practicing your krav ( I'm sure you are into krav) and paying your instructors to tell you that you are a tough guy. I'm sure your " proper breathing" works great doing your half speed choreographed moves.
@@joecarney9665 yeah Krav is very popular in the SpecOps community. I never heard of anyone doing RAT, although it is marketed as "what the SEALs use." At least it was a few years ago but I never did it. BJJ is not everything, but it's my thing. Paul Vunak could probably beat me on the mat. He's pretty good all round. I've never met Roy Harris even though he is in San Diego. His academy used to be in Miramar by the MC Air Station. I've only heard great things about him. In fact, just on JiuJitsu he is outstanding even in a BJJ and Martial Arts saturated market like San Diego. And you should hope to be in his shape at any age.
@@joecarney9665 hey, what is the keystroke for the twisting hurricane of death kick whilst carrying the ten point flaming power sword?? The West Coast SEAL reunion is in July in Imperial Beach. Could you give a block of instruction on tactics you've learned from Call of Duty?? I bet you could beat every Karateka in the 8 to 12 age bracket to a bloody pulp!! Better yet, start identifying as a girl and you'll really kick some ass!! Say hi to Starlett for me.
Have a guess why so "many" people subscribed? You didn't understand anything from Paul. Your protection against being elbowed after receiving a couple of hits in the face and THEN being grabbed in the neck is ridiculous. And this is just one example of your incompetence. Poor work.
Alalos, thanks for writing and being so honest! To begin our discussion, I'd to read about your background in this training. I'd also like read what things I misunderstood. So, please share these things with me 😁
Alalos, since you haven't responded to my previous request, I will respond to your writings: Where do I start? I'll start here: PART ONE - my background I started my training with Sifu Paul in 1987. I ended my training with him in 2001. During those years, I spent a good deal of time training with him (read "thousands of dollars"). And, most of this training were private lessons and a few handfuls of his varied group classes. NOTE: I would have trained more but he lived in the Los Angeles area and I lived two + hours south of him in San Diego. Because of this training - as well as the time spent together outside of training - he asked me to become the Vice President of PFS in 1997. He and I were attending a gun show in Orange County when he asked me this question. Not knowing what to say, I asked him, "Why me instead of some of the other, more senior, PFS instructors?", Sifu Paul said this, "You have the skills set I'm looking for in a Vice President. Plus I like the way you think. I need someone I can trust and bounce business ideas off of." So, I was his Vice President from late 1997 until early 2001. So to say that I misunderstood Paul is quite a stretch for you. I could understand you saying you don't like what I've shown on this video, but to say I misunderstood Paul - when you weren't there during those formative years - is quite the stretch! PART TWO - why I made this instructional (FYI, I sold a few thousand of them BTW) This instructional video was made for the following reasons: 1. When I first became the Vice President of PFS in 1997, numerous PFS instructors instructors asked for a follow up to his basic R.A.T. program. Many of them said the same things: "I've been doing The R.A.T. for 10-12 years now and I feel like I have it down fairly well. Could you ask Sifu Paul if he could teach us a follow-up course of instruction on counters to this program or an intermediate course of instruction?" I told Sifu Paul what the other instructors were saying and his response shocked me. It showed me a side of him I had never seen before. So, after waiting a decade for Sifu Paul to do something like this for his instructors, i decided to make an instructional with some ideas on countering some of the basics of the R.A.T. 2. The R.A.T. Program was a great innovation back in the day. However, now that it is 30 years old, it needs to be updated, revised and explored. 3. While using the same JKD matrix (taught to us belying Guro Dan), I solved some of the inherent problems with the R.A.T. (e.g. Using Savate to solve the kicking dilemmas, etc..). And while the manner in which I demonstrate some of the counters in this instructional are slow and late, I do so to be instructive rather than entertaining. I do this because I am of the opinion that instructors who show techniques and drills hard and fast do so to entertain their students (i.e. For "Ooo's" and "Ahh's) rather than teach them the finer details of what they are doing. PART THREE - my experience teaching and training this stuff Over the years, I've had students come to me and say, "I understand what you are showing but it doesn't look realistic. Can we spar so I can feel it.....but don't hurt me?" I would respond by saying, "Sure but if you go hard and realistic, I will go hard and realistic! I'm not going to be someone's punching bag. Are we clear?" All said yes. I am proud to say each of these students became believers after a few seconds or few minutes of sparring. Granted, I took a couple of shots to the face and the groin here and there.....but, they all were arm-wrenched in the end! Finally, I have Sifu Paul to thank for my arm-wrenching skills! He not only taught it to me but I experienced it a ton of times from him (unfortunately a few times his arm wrench ended our training session within the first 5 minutes). During our private lessons, we would often warm up with a 15-20 minute mix of energy drills. Obviously, Sifu Paul was much much better than me at them. However, in time, I became better and would be able to slap his chest once for every 50 times he hit mine. Then, once every 20 times. Then once every 10 times. And, every now and then he would turn things up and "accidentally" arm-wrench me hard. And while these training sessions were hard on my body (i.e. I couldn't fully extend my elbow joints for 3 years thanks to Sifu Paul and his errant arm-wrenches), I learned of the devastating power of these techniques. This is why they became an integral part of my close-quarter work! In closing, I'd like to say two things: 1) Think what you may about what I've shown on this instructional. I've taught 592 seminars in 25 countries for a reason. And while the majority of these seminars have been BJJ seminars, I have more than enough experience to know what works and what doesn't - because I have been in 100+ skirmishes before, during and after seminars. Anyone who has globally taught a few hundred seminars or more can attest to what I am saying (specifically people wanting to challenge what you teach). 2) As a fellow JKD practitioner, I'd like to encourage you to be more open minded about the techniques and training methods of others! One of the more sad things I find about some JKD instructors is their closed-mindedness attitude towards anything different than what they are doing. For example, I remember sharing Kalis Ilustrísimo with Sifu Paul and several other PFS instructors. But, because it didn't come directly from a particular individual, they weren't interested in it and poo-poo'ed it. Unfortunately, I experienced some of the same things from some other, very high level, senior JKD instructors. This is really unfortunate because it misses the main point of JKD. So, I'd like to encourage you to be a bit more open minded about techniques and training methods you don't know or fully understand. Thank you for your time and I wish you well on your journey 😁 Roy Harris www.royharris.com roy.harris.info@gmail.com
Tom split because Paul screwed him in a business deal, which left the position open to you. Anyway, Paul have finally seen the light and have come up with four additional RAT programs,. Something IMO he should have done when you asked him about it back in the day. Since I live in a much colder climate with snow in the winter, I asked Paul once about alternative techniques in RAT for teaching Special Forces. I said that with the subzero temperatues, teaching straight blast to Special Forces was not an option. They would choose someone else for the job. His only reply was that he would never put himself in a position where they had a choice of asking for deviations from the RAT. I enjoyed seeing how you chose to solve the problem with the counters. You should put out more of this kind.
LoL the ignorance certain people dispel is always casually SAT DOWN with minimal respectful effort. If you are going to.insult a man you better know about that man.
![The Truth About Tactical Pens As A Self-Defense Weapon [WL 425]](/img/1.gif)
I am from the TWJKD lineage and as we are very different from what Inosanto teaches and Vunak. I like your approach to things. You don't take the most direct route, but if these were to land, they would definitely do damage. I am not into weapons, but also nice job on focusing on hurting the tool.
Thank you for writing. And thank you for your comments!
Mr Harris top work mint explanation on why where and how .
Thank you micktrickmp!
This type of fighting has been around for ever, it was known as Rough and tumble.
whats cool about this system is it does counter the rat. but if u combine this with the rat and fine tune it u will have a nightmare to counter.
i figured there would be a counter to the rat system at some point. time to mr vunak to create a counter to this program now.
felicia felicity 😂 Exactly! I am sure he could do it!
Here’s an interesting point about what I have shown:
Some of what I taught in this app was shown to me by Mr. Vunak prior to the RAT program. So while some people may not like me showing this kind of information, I was shown some of it in the mid 1980’s. Heck, I can remember teaching at one of the Sierra Summit Seminars back in the late 1990’s. I remember teaching some “new stuff” to the guys at the camp. Later, they approached me privately and asked me where I had learned this stuff. I told them, “From Vu back in the 1980’s!” They couldn’t believe it. I told them, “Yeah, I wish he taught like this again.”
So, I am confident Mr. Vunak could come up with an advance RAT program that covered counters or different things. And when I was vice-president of PFS, I asked him to make a program like this. He told me, “No.” So maybe this video and our talk will encourage him to do something like this. I know many people would be interested in something like that.
Haha
The C.A.T. Counter's to Assaut Tactics!
Johnny Cox Johnny!!!!!
Valid points for the most part. However, in a clinch position, your opponent is not going to be just standing there with your hands on his neck trying to throw elbows, and most definitely won't start throwing anything until he has both hands controlling your head. A proper thai clinch has a lot of movement and unbalancing to it, and it's extremely difficult to set up blocks from that position. I'm usually dropping my shoulders and pulling you from one side to the other while attacking. Also, my grip is usually not directly on the neck, but rather gripping around the neck and head like holding a football, which makes it harder for the opponent to get his posture. This would certainly be effective in this type of situation, but if the guy grabs with both hands before he starts throwing elbows and is pulling you around, it's much more difficult to effectively block, especially knowing that knees can come in to play as well.
Having said all of that, I'm not exactly a super experienced Muay Thai fighter, so there could be other considerations I'm not taking into account.
Helljumper91, I hear what you’re saying. But, I want you (and everyone else) to hear what I am saying:
What I am showing in this video is an example of WHAT IS POSSIBLE during a clinch - regardless of whether it’s a Thai clinch, a wrestler’s clinch, a Dumog clinch or any other close quarter fighting method. This is all any instructor can do. (NOTE: Many assume when I’m showing these kinds of things that I am only referring to a Thai clinch. I am not. Many styles use a similar clinch.)
Let me give you a couple of examples of what I mean:
EXAMPLE ONE
Take any martial arts instructor and have him or her demonstrate any technique. When they demonstrate the technique, their partner is standing there feeding a specific type of energy in slow motion so that the instructor can teach whatever he is teaching. So, the physical demonstration and the teaching ARE NOT realistic and can never be realistic without hurting their training partner.
EXAMPLE TWO
Take a look at Sifu Vunak’s instructionals, he does the same thing (where his training partners stand there and cooperate with him so that he can teach whatever he is focusing on in his instructional).
So the issue is not whether or not a technique is realistic or can work in a real situation. The issue is whether or not the instruction was clearly presented.
Does that make sense?
Now for those who believe these could never work in a real situation, I have two comments:
1. You can say you don’t believe because you don’t have the experience I have with this topic. I have the experience of using these things in tons of sparring matches. And, I have done these things on numerous students of varying experience levels over my career of teaching seminars internationally. I was able to do these things because they had not seen them before and were caught off guard.
2. For those students who had seen these techniques before (or had experienced them from me), it was much harder for me to do them. So, like any other instructor/practitioner, I had to adapt and change my follow-ups at their attempts to control my neck or shoulder.
Thanks for the dialogue!
Roy Harris thank you for the response. Please don't think I'm saying you don't know what you're talking about or something like that. Your credentials are certainly there and clearly, these techniques will work in these situations as described. I just wanted to point out to people that the clinch can be a much more dynamic and unpredictable position than it is usually displayed. Even in Vunak's own tapes he shows a more passive clinch, so I'm not just pointing to you specifically or saying that the position won't work or anything. I just like to point out that there's generally a bit more pressure on that situation.
I'm by no means a pro or anything, but I do study various aspects of martial arts and am currently a 2 stripe blue belt in BJJ (as well as a novice kickboxer and a former TKD practitioner) so I'm not just an internet warrior who posts to make people look bad. I have respect for anyone who commits to any type of martial art or self defense program and I mean no disrespect at all when I mention things like this. I just like having a dialogue of technique with people to try to improve both my own game and the people I talk to. I wish more people would honestly, there's too much "lol that's garbage and will never work" on the internet.
Muy bueno!
if someone is approaching to attack me, seems to me because i can’t fight, i am going to let the attacker in and possible evade or get pushed. if i want to stop the attack as soon as possible, even before he strikes, or in any case, i am going to go for the head, actually i am going to go for an eye. if i can disable him momentarily by the eye injury, depending on how big he is, he’s done. when/if he goes to touch or briefly cover his eye, i am now either running away or further attacking his eyes and head. -i don’t to fight. if i am assaulted and cannot retreat…i want to take him out.
what’s wrong with that?
once i had an argument with my gf at night on miami beach. out of nowhere some guy comes flying through the air extended leg and foot leading as if to strike my head. he missed and lands, body down, in the sand. i am instant on top of him with my thumb in his eye threatening to rip it out. i let him up and he leaves. had he fought… out goes the eye. i don’t fight i want stop the threat, that means imo to stop the head. i’m going to evade as much as i can until i can make that eye strike. no?
You are correct!
The R.A.T. program is not a self-defense program per se. It is a martial art on martial art kind of program. Also, because it waits for an attack (so the practitioner can put in a destruction), it is a little behind in time. So, while I enjoy my time training the RAT back in the late 1980’s through the late 1990’s, I moved onto some things that were more suited for my age and for the injuries I sustained along the way.
The excerpts in this video was from a 3 hour long seminar I did in the Midwest. I taught it because many who attended the seminar had been practicing the R.A.T. Program for 5-15 years and we’re looking for something to add to it. So, I gave them some ideas to try out and see how they liked it ☺️
@@RoyHarris "I moved onto some things that were more suited for my age and for the injuries I sustained along the way." Yes, injuries and arthritis has really limited my ability to do most of the systems I used to spar in effectively. I can still use Vunak's system, but it hurts, especially when it rains. Most systems that require moving are painful.
Roy Harris is no longer with Paul Vunak. Why?
This video shows you blocking (not countering) an elbow from a clench position. I don't see RAT anywhere here.
Ronnie, thanks for writing! You say you don’t see RAT anywhere 🤔 Are you not familiar with destructions used to start the fight? Because if you had been, you would have understood the use of certain kicks from Savate used to counter the leg destructions. Also, are you not familiar with headbutts, knees and elbow? If you were familiar with them, you would have understood the “blocking” I taught as a means of neutralizing the elbow (something more taught within the RAT program) as well as the “countering” arm wrench that follows the block 😉
I think what you meant is that you don’t see the entire RAT program or the flashy straight blast.
What I did at this short seminar was dissect the RAT into separate pieces, had the students focus on countering each piece and then put everything together at the end. But because you weren’t there, and probably haven’t bought the app, you didn’t see the entire RAT program.
I wish I had 25-30 hours to show what this program entails. Unfortunately, this short video clip could not show everything.
Good training to you!
@@RoyHarris The R.A.T. program to me seems very effective. However it is impressive to see a valid counter to that system. The Entry System is required for the straight blast to work, which is required for termination of the fight with headbutts, knees, and elbows. By fully dismantling the entry system the rest of the program becomes less effective.
This does not mean that Vunak's system is useless because it still works as intended:
* The system still offers a cheap counter to most untrained fighters, and a good amount of trained fighters that are not expecting it.
* The system does not require a great amount of training time or precision.
* The counters to the Vunak's fighting system appear to require a large amount of precision and training.
* Few people I speak to today have heard about, or trained, in the the fighting system, so few people will be using it, and few people will train to counter it.
* The speed of the system means that under pressure these counters could still fail.
* Counters to this system make you very vulnerable in other ways. Most street fights involve very little kicking because fighters fear loosing their balance and being taken to the ground.
* There were already counters from back when I sparred with combat veterans: shell up with a high guard, semi-crouch, rush, and low tackle to take the fight to the ground. That counter works against both Vunak's system and Eddie Quinn's system.
All the above being said, it is a nice collection of techniques. Nice video.
Mr harris where can i get your r.a.t dvd please i really need it ☹
Hamad, it is late April 2020 and I am in the process of updating all of my apps.i I should have the R.A.T. counters app for iOS and Android available by summer time.
@@RoyHarris that's great !! Thanks !! 🤗❤
Have you been taught the R.A.T.?
@@RoyHarris Yes Sir. I purchased the app in the past but now Apple is saying it’s not available anymore. Now my app will only play the 1st portion. Really disappointed. Is there a way I could download the full program? I would even purchase a dvd to get this awesome program back. I’m more disappointed in the loss of the information than I am the money.
i like the tricky of the first move but there's a HUGE error. Turning the kick to all the way on the other side of the opponent is not smart at all. Doing that will definitely over rotate you, when you land you're trouble. Muay thai fighters take kicks to the leg MUCH harder than what that technique can generate. Circular to linear is good when you pick a safe vulnerable target, and is great for tricking opponent but sacrifices leverage for power. That technique alone, won't take down a fit fighter, and if you miss and landover rotated (which you will if you try to aim for the other side of the opponent) you land in a position with a huge disadvantage.
Thanks so much for your comments!
Having practiced and trained these kicks well over 10,000 repetitions, and having sparred with several Thai fighters, I’ve done very well with them - in their limited use ☺️ One Thai fighter quit sparring after my heel struck his tibial nerve quite hard. He smiled and said, “That was interesting! I’ve never been hit there before. Did you say these kicks come from Savate? Hmmm, I’ll have to look into it.”
Please keep in mind, this video displays a couple of minutes of a three hour seminar. So much more was taught than just the technical aspects.
Thanks again for your comments! I appreciate them ☺️
@@RoyHarris That's a really good angle, thanks for letting me know, could probably say it's a hard risky move but when mastered it has good outcomes, glad you found a way to make it work!
@@lvl18abilities At first, the kicks were tricky and difficult. However, because they were unlike anything I had ever seen before, I stayed with it and kept practicing. I’m thankful I did because I have something unique ☺️
Thanks again for your comments!
why counter the RAT system? Not like bad guys out there use the RAT as thier attacking method
Combat Sports & Fitness News, this video is more than just “countering the RAT”. Why do you ask? I ask because I’d like to know what the real question is as well as how you came to the conclusion that bad guys don’t use the RAT. There’s a lot I could write but I’d like to address your specific questions. Thanks 😁
The system is primarily a defensive fighting style, its entry system requires an attack to become effective. That being said a bad guy could prefer to use a ranged weapon for threat and attack, and have learned the R.A.T. system if their victim manages to close that range. A law enforcement officer might have to go hands on with a bad guy who could be using such a system, even if it is being used defensively, it still furthers the person's capacity to do harm later, at range, or with a different system or tool.
The above being said I see very few people that know about the system, and even fewer that use the system. Aside from older veterans and older law enforcement officers few really know about the system. There could have been an argument that teaching a counter to the system would primarily favor criminals who would want to counter a system used by Law Enforcement Officers, but few officers know about or learn the system today. The system has not been a top Google search result when you search for "self defense". It is a system from the 80s, and while it is very good, it will never get as much attention as Krav Maga, Defense Lab, MMA, Boxing, BJJ, or any other of the popular systems that get typed into Google regularly.
interesting perspective, but as someone who has personally trained with vunak and done RAT for many years, this is not going to work.
the clinch defense is good, but since we are talking about the RAT, we are assuming that the fighter has gotten a destruction on the hand or leg, and then applied a straight blast for forward pressure immediately after the pain has been delivered, that defense would be harder to apply.
Also, the RAT you see in videos is the simplistic version, and is not necessarily meant to be applied the way u see vu doing it..he says in his videos that the RAT he demonstrates is "on a good day", and we train the incidentals, if your hand is in centerline, the attack wont go to the clinch, but to other arts dumog, savate etc.
also, that fist kick looks nice, but if the fighter moves offline during your heel hook and applies a blast from an angle, very bad situation for you.
nice video tho, good marketing got me to at least watch it :)
Robert Mitchel, thanks for writing!
As someone who has also trained with Vunak (from 1987 to 2001) and done the RAT, I do not believe in the RAT as something that can be done by everyone on everyone or even on most people. While it CAN work if someone “feeds” their kicks and punches, I have seen its weaknesses.
Additionally, all fighting methodologies have holes in them - even the RAT!
Also, you can say all you want that these things won’t work.........but I made them work against several of my fellow PFS’ers back in the day 😉
I stopped using the straight blast for three reasons:
1. I developed arthritis in my hands.
2. Also, having straight blasted a ton of people during training, I observed that I usually hit my hands against the top and sides of their heads when they cowered. Couple this with my arthritis and you can see why I stopped using the blast.
3. Sifu Vunak did not tell everyone the full truth about the blast. Here it is:
“The blast can be a highly effective tool in a fight. However, you can break your hand using it.”
Sifu Paul broke his hands several times using it in a fight. I know this because I remember driving two hours to his house for a private lesson only to be greeted at the front door by Sifu in a cast. I saw this on three occasions.
Having been the PFS Vice-President (from 1997 to 2001), and since Sifu’s senior instructors had been asking Sifu for some new and different for over a decade (and he had not given them anything new since the late 1989’s), I decided to share some new ideas with them from Boxe Française. And this is what you see in this video 😁
@@RoyHarris open hand and use the shredder method!
@@RoyHarris I agree, and for this, you should watch my short video Weapons to Empty Hands training on my channel. God Bless you, stay humble :-).
@@RoyHarris Take a look at The Approach by Eddie Quinn, it is simplified, and hand friendly, it is very similar to Vunak's system. The only thing I would really change is to borrow Vunak's limb destruction and blocking for the Entry System. Eddie Quinn's pressure system is basically a straight blast with hammer fist strikes to the face, head, neck, collar bone, and sternum from the dominant hand. The Approach's termination moves remove knee strikes and make headbutts a bonus material. Knee strikes do require more risk of lost balance and skill, but it provides more options.
If the opponent has a knife and you don't: sweep and disengage so you can escape or get a weapon. A lot of systems say that you can fight someone with a knife, but the probability is fighting them will result in severe injury or death even with advanced training.
Disclaimer: I am not an expert, none of my comments are legal or medical advice.
Goof stuff I train alot of styles got into jkd and led me too a diffrent stuff judo bjj
I thought the RAT is for self defense?? Why teach counters? What’s Next one could teaching counters to women at self defense to sexual assault??
Jason, when the RAT program is initially presented to the general public, it is said to be a "self-defense" method. However, upon closer examination, it is found to be a martial art method designed to counter common martial art techniques - like a jab, cross, and rear leg round kick. (How many unskilled people do you know that can throw a solid jab, rear leg round kick, or even know what "angle one" is with a stick?) So, what I have shown is not a counter method to a self-defense system but rather a counter method to a martial art method. THAT is the difference! Thanks for writing 🙂
That's nice sweaty but those checks against kicks have been proven to work in the ring/cage and your stuff hasn't.
Off you go.
baldieman64, thanks for writing!
Please show me where those checks work on a high percentage basis. I would love to see them work again and again. I’m sure you can show me a video where someone effectively does one of those checks once or twice during a kickboxing or mma match, but I’d like to see the same fighter use these checks again and again with great success.
I’d also love to see the videos you’ve seen where what I’ve shown are not working.
It’s one thing to have a strong opinion about something. It’s quite anther to use the words, “Have been proven to work.”
So, please show me how you know this with absolute certainty.
Thanks 😁😁😁
Go watch the UFC or anything live from Lumpinee Boxing Stadium.
Nice try. So, you don’t have any specific videos that show where these kicks have been proven to work again and again by a specific fighter?
That tells me it’s either a knee check that worked here and there (not again and again by the same fighter) or it’s just your opinion. I am ok with both.
But, you still haven’t shown me any videos where the things I’ve shown have not worked. So, please show me those videos 😁
If the leg checks don't work, why are you showing counters to them?
baldieman64, two things:
1. If you watched the video and actually knew the topic I was referring to, you’d know I wasn’t talking about leg checking. Everyone knows that leg checks ARE effective (but again, that’s not what I was referring to in this video).
2. I am still waiting for the videos that PROVE my stuff not working in the ring/cage. You either haven’t seen any videos on this topic or you don’t have any experience with the fakes, feints and set ups of Boxe Française Savate. So, any time you’d like to share those videos with me I’d love to see them.
And just so you know, I have surprised quite a few amateur Thai boxers with these feints. After our sparring, they asked where I had learned these things and how was I performing it (i.e. they were open minded about other kicking styles and training methods). And just so you know, they did beat up my legs pretty bad.....but I did sweep them several times and kicked their calves numerous times 😁
So, I know from personal experience they work in sparring.
Did they work all of the time? No. Nothing works all of the time. But, to those who were unfamiliar with the fakes, feints and set ups of Boxe Française Savate, they worked like a charm the first handful of times I used them.
Food for thought 😁
Bro if you do this shit you will lose your balance and get pounded on the ground
🤣🤣🤣
You are winded just doing this in slow motion. Always easy to spot "instructor" who has never been in a real fight. Is your art the "tao of slow mo Jeet kune do"? Seriously, lose the ego and the spare tire, go train with Vu or Tom.
joe carney 😂😂😂 That’s a good one!
You’re funny 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
He really doesn't sound winded. Are you maybe confusing proper breathing with getting winded??
Say hi to Rex for me. Rex Kwon Do is the ultimate!
No confusion...he's winded. Keep doing your " proper breathing". The RAT was designed to explode inside punching range. These "counters" are clueless fluff. Keep practicing your krav ( I'm sure you are into krav) and paying your instructors to tell you that you are a tough guy. I'm sure your " proper breathing" works great doing your half speed choreographed moves.
@@joecarney9665 yeah Krav is very popular in the SpecOps community. I never heard of anyone doing RAT, although it is marketed as "what the SEALs use." At least it was a few years ago but I never did it. BJJ is not everything, but it's my thing. Paul Vunak could probably beat me on the mat. He's pretty good all round. I've never met Roy Harris even though he is in San Diego. His academy used to be in Miramar by the MC Air Station. I've only heard great things about him. In fact, just on JiuJitsu he is outstanding even in a BJJ and Martial Arts saturated market like San Diego.
And you should hope to be in his shape at any age.
@@joecarney9665 hey, what is the keystroke for the twisting hurricane of death kick whilst carrying the ten point flaming power sword??
The West Coast SEAL reunion is in July in Imperial Beach. Could you give a block of instruction on tactics you've learned from Call of Duty??
I bet you could beat every Karateka in the 8 to 12 age bracket to a bloody pulp!! Better yet, start identifying as a girl and you'll really kick some ass!! Say hi to Starlett for me.
Have a guess why so "many" people subscribed? You didn't understand anything from Paul. Your protection against being elbowed after receiving a couple of hits in the face and THEN being grabbed in the neck is ridiculous. And this is just one example of your incompetence. Poor work.
Alalos, thanks for writing and being so honest!
To begin our discussion, I'd to read about your background in this training. I'd also like read what things I misunderstood.
So, please share these things with me 😁
Alalos, since you haven't responded to my previous request, I will respond to your writings:
Where do I start? I'll start here:
PART ONE - my background
I started my training with Sifu Paul in 1987. I ended my training with him in 2001. During those years, I spent a good deal of time training with him (read "thousands of dollars"). And, most of this training were private lessons and a few handfuls of his varied group classes. NOTE: I would have trained more but he lived in the Los Angeles area and I lived two + hours south of him in San Diego.
Because of this training - as well as the time spent together outside of training - he asked me to become the Vice President of PFS in 1997. He and I were attending a gun show in Orange County when he asked me this question. Not knowing what to say, I asked him, "Why me instead of some of the other, more senior, PFS instructors?", Sifu Paul said this, "You have the skills set I'm looking for in a Vice President. Plus I like the way you think. I need someone I can trust and bounce business ideas off of." So, I was his Vice President from late 1997 until early 2001.
So to say that I misunderstood Paul is quite a stretch for you. I could understand you saying you don't like what I've shown on this video, but to say I misunderstood Paul - when you weren't there during those formative years - is quite the stretch!
PART TWO - why I made this instructional (FYI, I sold a few thousand of them BTW)
This instructional video was made for the following reasons:
1. When I first became the Vice President of PFS in 1997, numerous PFS instructors instructors asked for a follow up to his basic R.A.T. program. Many of them said the same things: "I've been doing The R.A.T. for 10-12 years now and I feel like I have it down fairly well. Could you ask Sifu Paul if he could teach us a follow-up course of instruction on counters to this program or an intermediate course of instruction?" I told Sifu Paul what the other instructors were saying and his response shocked me. It showed me a side of him I had never seen before.
So, after waiting a decade for Sifu Paul to do something like this for his instructors, i decided to make an instructional with some ideas on countering some of the basics of the R.A.T.
2. The R.A.T. Program was a great innovation back in the day. However, now that it is 30 years old, it needs to be updated, revised and explored.
3. While using the same JKD matrix (taught to us belying Guro Dan), I solved some of the inherent problems with the R.A.T. (e.g. Using Savate to solve the kicking dilemmas, etc..). And while the manner in which I demonstrate some of the counters in this instructional are slow and late, I do so to be instructive rather than entertaining. I do this because I am of the opinion that instructors who show techniques and drills hard and fast do so to entertain their students (i.e. For "Ooo's" and "Ahh's) rather than teach them the finer details of what they are doing.
PART THREE - my experience teaching and training this stuff
Over the years, I've had students come to me and say, "I understand what you are showing but it doesn't look realistic. Can we spar so I can feel it.....but don't hurt me?" I would respond by saying, "Sure but if you go hard and realistic, I will go hard and realistic! I'm not going to be someone's punching bag. Are we clear?" All said yes.
I am proud to say each of these students became believers after a few seconds or few minutes of sparring. Granted, I took a couple of shots to the face and the groin here and there.....but, they all were arm-wrenched in the end!
Finally, I have Sifu Paul to thank for my arm-wrenching skills! He not only taught it to me but I experienced it a ton of times from him (unfortunately a few times his arm wrench ended our training session within the first 5 minutes).
During our private lessons, we would often warm up with a 15-20 minute mix of energy drills. Obviously, Sifu Paul was much much better than me at them. However, in time, I became better and would be able to slap his chest once for every 50 times he hit mine. Then, once every 20 times. Then once every 10 times. And, every now and then he would turn things up and "accidentally" arm-wrench me hard. And while these training sessions were hard on my body (i.e. I couldn't fully extend my elbow joints for 3 years thanks to Sifu Paul and his errant arm-wrenches), I learned of the devastating power of these techniques. This is why they became an integral part of my close-quarter work!
In closing, I'd like to say two things:
1) Think what you may about what I've shown on this instructional. I've taught 592 seminars in 25 countries for a reason. And while the majority of these seminars have been BJJ seminars, I have more than enough experience to know what works and what doesn't - because I have been in 100+ skirmishes before, during and after seminars. Anyone who has globally taught a few hundred seminars or more can attest to what I am saying (specifically people wanting to challenge what you teach).
2) As a fellow JKD practitioner, I'd like to encourage you to be more open minded about the techniques and training methods of others!
One of the more sad things I find about some JKD instructors is their closed-mindedness attitude towards anything different than what they are doing. For example, I remember sharing Kalis Ilustrísimo with Sifu Paul and several other PFS instructors. But, because it didn't come directly from a particular individual, they weren't interested in it and poo-poo'ed it. Unfortunately, I experienced some of the same things from some other, very high level, senior JKD instructors. This is really unfortunate because it misses the main point of JKD.
So, I'd like to encourage you to be a bit more open minded about techniques and training methods you don't know or fully understand.
Thank you for your time and I wish you well on your journey 😁
Roy Harris
www.royharris.com
roy.harris.info@gmail.com
Roy Harris well said. Respect and salute to you.
Tom split because Paul screwed him in a business deal, which left the position open to you.
Anyway, Paul have finally seen the light and have come up with four additional RAT programs,. Something IMO he should have done when you asked him about it back in the day.
Since I live in a much colder climate with snow in the winter, I asked Paul once about alternative techniques in RAT for teaching Special Forces. I said that with the subzero temperatues, teaching straight blast to Special Forces was not an option. They would choose someone else for the job. His only reply was that he would never put himself in a position where they had a choice of asking for deviations from the RAT.
I enjoyed seeing how you chose to solve the problem with the counters. You should put out more of this kind.
LoL the ignorance certain people dispel is always casually SAT DOWN with minimal respectful effort.
If you are going to.insult a man you better know about that man.